Note: Today and tomorrow I will be participating in the 2008 Post-Election Conference at the Dole Institute at the University of Kansas. That means that posting times may be a little bit slow/irregular/nonexistent, but hopefully I'll have lots of good insights for you guys upon my return.
With Jim Martin's loss in Georgia, we now know that the Democrats will not achieve a 60-seat senatorial caucus once the 111th Congress convenes next month. In practice, however, the line between 59 (or 58) votes and 60 was never so bright as it seemed. Moderate Republicans are an endangered species these days, but there are still a few of them left, as well as several other quasi-moderates who either get along with Obama or are under some form of electoral pressure in their home states. Conversely, there are more than a couple of Democrats in the chamber whose votes Obama can't take for granted.
In practice, there will be a group of four or five senators in each party who line up just to either side of the 60-seat threshold and will find that they're suddenly very much in demand. If Obama's approval ratings are strong, he should have little trouble whipping the couple of Republican votes he needs into shape, and should clear 60 comfortably on key issues. But, if Obama proves to be unpopular, there remain enough conservative, red-state Democratic senators to deny him a simple majority on key issues, much less 60 votes.
Let's start with the Republicans, ranking the senators based on their likelihood of crossing party lines to vote with Obama. We'll begin counting upward from the number 59, which assumes that Norm Coleman will win the recount in Minnesota, and that the first Republican vote that Obama gets is his 59th overall. If Al Franken wins instead, add one to each of the numbers below.
This ordering is based on a combination of objective and subjective considerations, and should be considered rough -- among other things, it will diverge based on the particular issue at hand.
Swing Republicans
59. Snowe (ME). Obama won Maine by 18 points, making it the bluest state to be home to a Republican senator -- and in fact, it has two of them. Per Voteview, Olympia Snowe is incrementally more liberal than Susan Collins; she's also up for re-election two years sooner. It will be very interesting to see how the two of them will legislate under an Obama administration.
60. Collins (ME). See above.
61. Specter (PA). Under re-election pressure in a state that Obama carried by double digits. Mitigating factor: possible that he'll be under pressure from the right too in the form of a primary challenge.
62. Lugar (IN). On good terms with Obama, who (barely) won his state. Voteview has him becoming slightly more liberal over the past several Congresses.
63. Voinovich (OH). Under serious re-election pressure. Has often been moderate -- or even slightly left of center -- on pocketbook issues, and increasingly so on other ones.
...the preceding five senators will be under the most pressure to side with a popular Obama, but several others may come into play on occasion:
64. Coleman (MN). If he beats Franken by 50 votes or something, will that chasten him into being more bipartisan? Possibly not, but he's been relatively moderate, and Minnesota remains a solidly blue state.65. Hagel (NE). Friendly with Obama, has no problem bucking his party, but this vote may be largely confined to foreign policy. [Ed. -- oops]
65. McCain (AZ). Hard to know where his headspace will be for a variety of reasons, particularly as he's legislated all over the spectrum (from authentically moderate to strongly conservative) in different Congresses. Obama may have sent him something of an olive branch by appointing Janet Napolitano, his potential rival in 2010, to head of Homeland Security.
66. Grassley (IA). Up for re-election -- although he'll probably win easily if he doesn't retire. Still, something like an aging Supreme Court justice, Grassley has moderated in recent years, particularly on good government issues. Iowa is turning bluer.
67. Murkowski (AK). Up for re-election in 2010, although it's unclear if she'll face a serious challenge. Pro-choice. At heart, her politics might not be that different than Snowe or Collins, although she faces less electoral pressure to moderate.
68. Gregg (NH). Fairly conservative really, but under significant enough re-election pressure that he may assist Obama outside of his hallmark issue of taxation.
69. Bond (MO). See above, although Bond's bugaboos are in foreign policy rather than fiscal policy.
Others to watch: Hatch (UT), Martinez (FL), Johanns (NE)
Swing Democrats
It would not surprise me if we see a bit of cross-over between the parties this year -- that is, if a Republican like Olympia Snowe winding up with a more liberal voting record than a Democrat like Mary Landrieu.
For this group, we'll count downward from 58.
58. Landrieu (LA). Always a problem for Democrats on key votes. LA is trending red. Endorsed Clinton. [Ed: A Landrieu staffer wrote me to clarify that Landrieu did NOT endorse Clinton. We regret the error.]
57. Pryor (AR). Is slightly more popular than Landrieu and also slightly more liberal, but the same basic story applies. Arkansas is one of the few states moving in the wrong direction for Democrats, and Pryor never really showed any signs of warmth toward Obama.
56. Nelson (NE). By most statistical methodologies, the most conservative Democrat in the chamber. However, he endorsed Obama early. I think Obama will have fewer near-term problems with the Midwestern blue dogs than the Southern ones.
55. Lincoln (AR). More liberal by some margin than Mark Pryor, but she's up for re-election in 2010, and Obama may have reverse coattails in Arkansas. If Mike Huckabee enters the race against her, look out.
...that group of four senators represent Obama's most significant problems, but he'll have several others that he needs to keep an eye on:
54. Lieberman (CT). Who knows. My hunch is that he'll want to start getting back in Democrats' good graces, but this is a man who likes the spotlight and blockading legislation is a good way to accomplish that. Still, fundamentally he remains fairly liberal outside the sphere of national security.
53. Dorgan (ND). Dorgan endorsed Obama early, but he just ain't all that liberal.
52. Conrad (ND). See above. Perhaps slightly more liberal than Dorgan on issues like energy.
51. Baucus (MT). His proactive health care proposal suggests he may be more comfortable than he once was with progressive policy, but will be a problem on some issues like the environment.
50. Tester (MT). Only endorsed Obama very late in the process, and not as liberal as the netroots think. That Montana nearly went blue may relieve some pressure.
49. Byrd (WV). Warm relations with Obama, but could potentially buck him on cultural issues.
48. Webb (VA). Never really got on the Obama bandwagon and has his idiosyncratic streak.
47. Salazar (CO). One of the few Democrats under re-election pressure, although it's mitigated by the fact that Obama is more popular in Colorado than he is.
Others to Watch: Hagan (NC), Rockefeller (WV), Warner (VA)
The takeaway here is that although political capital is important to any president, it may be particularly so for Obama given the present configuration of the Senate and the fact that he appears to have a fair amount he actually wants to get accomplished.
12.04.2008
Who Are The Swing Senators?
by Nate Silver @ 8:15 AM...see also partisanship, political capital, senate, senate democrats, senate republicans
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145 comments
Hagel has left the Senate.
What Adam said.
Nate, you run a great site and your analysis is usually quite strong, but you've made a very obvious error here: Hagel has retired.
Hagel
Also, I think Mark Begich should be added to the list of Democrats to watch - he comes from a very red state and might not be a dependable vote, especially on environmental issues (Alaskans, despite having beautiful environmental areas, seem hell-bent on wanting to destroy them for some reason).
I think you'll see Byrd and Rockefeller of WV be more against Obama on environmental issues, especially as they relate to coal, than on cultural issues.
You may get push back from Byrd if the administration tries to do something that he perceives to be unconstitutional than on anything else.
Bottom line - both of these guys are hugely popular here. Rockefeller just won reelection easily and Byrd isn't likely to run again. Either of them could basically do anything they wanted to without much recrimination from the body politic.
Collins just won huge in Maine by running as a bipartisan. I don't believe it, but she can do whatever she wants.
Love the website. I think the talk of filibusters and swing senators is oversimplified. These folks really do have different positions depending on the issue. You cannot count them as one place on the ideological spectrum for all issues.
Hagel isn't in the Senate anymore (well, for a month or so).
You incorrectly list Hagel of Nebraska. He did not run for reelection and has been replaced by a conservative Republican
Yeah, Hagel might vote with Obama, but in the privacy of his own home and NOT on the Senate floor.
Have a good time in Lawrence, Nate. Hope you don't run into Liz "There is no Dodd" Dole. ;-)
I'm not so sure about where the good Sens from WV will be on all environmental issues. For instance, United Mine Workers is highly ambivalent about Mountaintop Removal since it is less labor intensive and practiced almost exclusively by union-busting companies. These kinds of conflicts within an environmental issue really muddy the waters (sorry, sorry, had to make the bad joke).
Another labor/political trend to keep an eye on in WV is the rise of the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association. While there is still no collective bargaining for public employees, both of the big teacher unions are making gains in membership and having successes under voluntary negotiations, especially AFT at the higher ed level. (Someone can correct me on this, but I believe WV is a "meet and confer" state like TX).
Teacher unions tend to be a little more enviro-friendly (somebody think of the children), especially when Massey build million-gallon toxic slurry retention ponds uphill from elementary schools.
Just 2 cents from a non-WV unionist.
I don't understand the Webb comment, seems like he was a pretty good soldier for Barack, at least during the General Election.
I doubt any democrat would aid the republicans in a fillibuster. At best the GOP will have 42 votes and it will be tough to keep, Snow, Collins, Spector and a few others that are up for re-election in line.
Also I doubt Obama will try to pass legislation that is something that the GOP will want to fillibuster, he will try being bi-partisan at least his first year.
I think the dems ought to try to steal a senator or 2 from the GOP, no fun being in the minority and they probably will be for years.
Good Grief!
Dem. candidate Charlie Brown concedes CA-4 to Republican McClintock.
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/brown-concedes-to-mcclintock-2008-12-03.html
If Specter decides to run for re-election, expect him to tack pretty far to the right on . I expect that he'll need to defend himself again against a pretty stiff primary challenge (he almost lost to Toomey in 2004). He's going to be a thorn in the Democrats side as a member of the Appropriations Committee. Believe me, he'll use his reputation as a moderate to be one of the most obstructionist members, not because he necessarily disagrees with all of Obama's agenda, but because his political survival depends upon it.
But if he decides to retire at the end of his term, he'll be mellow and pragmatic and an amenable GOP.
Also, expect all sorts of trouble from Rust Belt Democratic senators if Congress can't put something together ASAP to bailout GM, et al. There will be a steep political cost in terms of cooperation toward passing all forms of future fiscal stimulus if the auto industry falls into bankruptcy.
Honestly, once the $#!+ hits the fan on the economy (no, we're not there yet), Obama's going to have a bigger problem herding the Democrats than he will attracting the handful of GOP votes they'll need for cloture. Without a strong leader in the Senate, we're looking at an impotent majority due to its own infighting.
Nate's Republican five plus Hagel can be trusted to be on Obama's side on issues. Lieberman should not be in the list, IMHO
I doubt any democrat would aid the republicans in a fillibuster. At best the GOP will have 42 votes and it will be tough to keep, Snow, Collins, Spector and a few others that are up for re-election in line.
Depends on what the issue is. Stray into hot-button social issues, and at a minimum the Democrats lose Byrd and Nelson. Something like re-establishing the assault weapons ban would meet similar resistance from Red State Democrats. Hopefully Democrats stay away from those peripheral issues and focus on the core aspects of the agenda: economic stabilization, healthcare, and energy reform.
And when Obama gets around to cutting the defense budget, expect all sorts of hell to get raised by senators whose states will lose key contracts. It seems likely that we'll have $1+ trillion deficits for a few years as Obama's signaled that he is going to defer on cutting spending until the economy stabilizes (ie, after the midterms in 2010). But eventually the US will have to curtail defense contracts and those are a political nightmare, no matter how much the caucus may support the cutbacks in the abstract.
Interestingly, both Collins and Snowe have been mentioned as possible Obama appointments and both have apparently declined.
Now, being that Maine has a Democratic governor, if either Collins or Snowe left to take an Obama Admin post, their replacement is going to be a Democrat. If both Snowe and Collins took Obama posts, the magic sixty would be achieved.
I do hope that Collins and Snowe know that they have a ton of leverage here. Perhaps they forced Mitch McConnell to cough up some choice committee positions in exchange for not giving the Democrats anti-filibuster insurance.
Dem. candidate Charlie Brown concedes CA-4 to Republican McClintock.
McClintock's the guy who can't even vote in his own district because he doesn't actually live there, IIRC.
In my view the most important votes will be on SCOTUS nominees. To a lesser degree, judges of the district courts and courts of appeals. I do not think there will be any successful filibusters on these issues. However, in the past, with "divided government," the legislative party in power merely kept nominees from a vote before the Senate.
The question here is what issues will arise that might lead to filibuster threats? I don't think the country is in much of a mood for partisanship and I think such threats will be few and far between.
For these reasons I think all this discussion about a filibuster-free Senate are a bit off mark. Obama is going to lead from the middle, as he has shown with all of his early nominees (and as his personal history demonstrates).
er... Has anyone pointed out that Hagel has left the Senate?
Jeebus, people!
Guys, there's a much bigger difference between voting against something and filibustering it. Some Rep senators might vote against it, but also vote against the filibuster.
While in Lawrence, I recommend a stop by the Free State Brewery. Delicious.
Not sure why you list Webb over Warner. Warner's stump speech included the promise to be a "radical centrist," and work with people on either side of the aisle. He's certainly more moderate than Webb, and he definitely has ambitions beyond the senate, so he'll be looking to make a name for himself as someone who bucks his own party.
Since we are talking about cloture votes here, and not final votes on legislation, I think Obama will have a much easier time holding the 58 Democratic senators together.
Reid is basically going to tell his caucus "Vote with us on cloture in order to stay in our good graces. We'll give you more leeway on the final vote, where we only need 50."
So while Dem senators have a strong incentive to invoke cloture even on legislation they don't particularly like, Republicans don't really have an incentive to oppose cloture on bills they do plan to vote for (except for high profile obstructionist maneuvers).
On each issue there will be some betrayal (social issues for Landrieu types, defense for Lieberman, etc.) but Obama's people skills and popularity should be able to get some Republicans on board.
If Republicans stay united and never play ball, it's time to rewrite filibuster rules and allow 55 Senators to invoke cloture.
Nate, grab a beer at The Wheel while you are in Lawrence. Or some Potato Ole's at Taco Johns.
Two other potential GOP swing votes are Lindsay Graham and Richard Burr. Graham was a member of the Gang of 14 and takes his cues from Lieberman and McCain. Get them on board and he'll come too. Burr is pretty conservative but he saw what happened to Liddy Dole and he's up for re-election in 2010. His approval numbers aren't good, and Obama won his state. He'll be tempted to crossover on at least some votes.
Finally, as other commenters have pointed out, there's a HUGE difference between voting against something and filibustering it. I think it's highly doubtful that any Democrats will join a Republican filibuster, at least in the first two years. All Obama needs to do is to convince a couple Republicans to vote for cloture (even if they end up voting against the bill). That shouldn't be too hard.
What's it matter?
The biggest dissapointment of the senate leadership has been the lack of fillibusters. The GOP threatens fillibuster, and the Dems roll over. Why not force the fillibuster? Why not make the fillibuster the story? Why not force their hand?
Make them declare themselves.
If the senate leadership doesn't force fillbusters, its doesn't really matter who is swing and who is not.
I'm skeptical about the supposed difference between voting for cloture and voting for a bill. Seems like that it is actually relatively rare for senators to change their vote, especially whenever the cloture vote is close. Can anyone actually point to even a single example of a successful cloture vote where the underlying bill then received less than 60 votes? How likely is this?
What's it matter?
The biggest dissapointment of the senate leadership has been the lack of fillibusters. The GOP threatens fillibuster, and the Dems roll over. Why not force the fillibuster? Why not make the fillibuster the story? Why not force their hand?
I think there's a big difference between forcing a filibuster with Bush as president versus having Obama as president. Also, big difference with 58-59 senators in the D caucus versus 51 in the caucus. Reid had such a slim majority that he needed to steer a centrist course. There's also not much point in forcing a filibuster when the president would veto the bill if the filibuster were overcome. You're clearly playing politics. Maybe you make the Rs look bad; maybe you look bad.
I'll be much more disappointed if Ds do not force R filibusters this term, especially if you're within a few votes that might be broght over with enough pressure or it's something Obama campaigned on.
Lisa Murkowski is pro-choice like Sarah Palin is a feminist.
Hagel is out, shouldn't be listed.... although the analysis is accurate I think
While Snowe is, as a moderate Republican, clearly a "swing" vote, I disagree with the notion that she'll be facing any electoral pressure with an upcoming election in 2010.
Snowe is a Maine institution at this point. She will win re-election by a huge margin regardless of what she does in the next two years.
Let's see.
The Nation is rapidly sliding into depression. The next two years will be dedicated to passing a lot of bills to do what can be done.
So you are a Republican Senator wondering if you will be re-elected in 2010. If you don't vote against a filibuster you can be dambed sure that your oponent will make it clear that you are responsible for the log jam.
Difficult decision?
nasesse - a herd of blocked up female noses.
Snowe could crap on everyone in Maine's lawn and still get elected with 75% of the vote. Collins, not so much. While she's not vulnerable, if she started being a partisan hack, she'd get kicked out. Snowe has her seat for however long she wants it.
Snowe could very easily cross over.
Think. McCain needed a female running mate so he sounded out the party on a pro-choice pick. The response was so violent he ignored Snowe & others to pick Palin.
Right now any pro-choice Republican must feel unloved. There is going to be a heated atempt by GOP moderates to stear the party towards a more electable set of policies, but it is far from clear that they will win.
fropp - sound of a frog jumping for and missing a lily pad.
Difficult to see Snowe changing parties since she has strong GOP ties. But, if the party takes an even further turn to the right, who knows. Maybe it will take some sort of personal insult like when Bush didn't invite Jeffords to the white house ceremony honoring the teacher of the year who happened to be from VT.
Yeah, Hagel will not be a part of the 111th Congress. I would like to know where Nate thinks Johanns, Hagel's successor, would rank...I don't know anything about Johanns.
I can't imagine that any Democrat, even conservative ones, would ever vote to sustain a filibuster against lesislation that was being pushed through by either Obama or the Democratic party leadership. They might vote against legislation that they are ideologically opposed to (or that their constituency is ideologically opposed to) to give themselves political cover. But voting to sustain a filibuster against your own party will only damage the Democratic brand and I can't imagine any Democratic senator thinking that is a wise policy.
^Exactly. And that is why 60 seats really isn't a "mirage".
If all 60 vote against the filibuster, it's over, despite their votes on the legislation itself.
Also, no moderate Repubs will switch parties, because this gives them MAJOR leverage. Snowe and Collins could demand McConnell do this and that or they'll vote against the filibuster. It should be a funny show.
It won't be as hard to get to 60 votes to all a vote as it may sound. Most of these Senators can vote to allow the vote, but then vote against the legislation. The voters only remember how their representative voted on the legislation not whether they allowed the legislation to be voted on.
As much as I despise Lieberman, according to Bob Geiger's analysis, Lieberman did vote with the Democrats the vast majority of times in the 110th Congress when a matter was decided by one vote. Since it will no longer be necessary to have Congress vote to try to change military policy, there will probably be even fewer instances now. (Lieberman does love being a scold in the spotlight, but he usually doesn't need a specific vote to get that.)
If all 60 vote against the filibuster, it's over, despite their votes on the legislation itself.
In reality, yes, but there is lots of history of senators declining to support a filibuster and then campaigning on having voted against the legislation. (And in fairness, supporting a filibuster does cost political capital, making it harder to get support for your own bills.)
This is further reinforced by issue groups' "ratings," which are notorious for counting the final vote rather than the cloture vote when determining how good a supporter an incumbent is.
Webb came out to support Obama at a number of events, but didn't campaign heavily. He wasn't up for re-election, and as I understand it, he really doesn't like campaigning; I don't think it indicates any particular animus toward Obama.
While it's true that Webb is idiosyncratic, I'm hard pressed to think of issues where he's likely to clash with Obama. Webb is pro-military personnel, not hawkish. He's pro-labor, though it doesn't get much coverage. He's been spending a lot of time lately working on reform of harsh drug laws and supporting re-integrating ex-cons into society, which definitely illustrates how he's a real "maverick", but not for purposes of seeking the spotlight.
Lionel: Yeah, but Warner's big thing is working across the aisle to get things done. I don't see filibusters fitting into that image.
My guess is "Getting things done" is going to be a key message.
Maybe "ratings" ignored fillibuster votes before but that is about to change.
I wouldn't be surprised if Obama's henchman is McCain. They will work as a team to cut back on pork. Why not work together on productivity too?
pesho - special italian seasoning used only on overcooked pasta.
@ phoenixwoman
McClintock's the guy who can't even vote in his own district because he doesn't actually live there, IIRC.
I vaguely seem to remember him buying property in his new district (or maybe that was his previous change of district).
At any rate, he is pure evil no matter where he votes. He's a complete a wingnut.
WV bramu: broiled Shamu. Yummm.
In "The Conscience of a Liberal," Paul Krugman compares voting statistics from the 2003-2004 session of Congress with those from 1957-1958. These statistics demonstrate the disappearance of Republican moderates - there are no Republican members of Congress who on the whole have a voting record more liberal than even the most conservative Democrats. My own observation is that on economic issues, even so-called moderate Republican senators take a conservative position. We will see if this starts to change now.
Yes, coming from Arkansas, Lincoln and Pryor both creates problems for Obama. Pryor was afraid to stump for him, although his only opposition was coming from the Green Party. I almost voted for the Green candidate myself over him because he is more like a DINO. Why Lieberman is more supportive of Obama then he is. And Lincoln, well, if Obama does well, she won't mind him stumping for her on her re-election campaign in 2010. But, if not, she'll play the blue dog card. The two Democrats from AR are really like having two Republicans instead. Both senators from Maine will make up votes for Obama for those who don't support him from Arkansas. BTW, a confederate flag was raised up and flying on a pole at the Orval Faubus Motel in Huntsville, AR. The owner wanted to raise it to protest the election of Obama. The state is sick. There's exciting times ahead, but some people here are holding grudges.
Fabulous fabulous post! This is exactly what I've been looking for ever since the election. I'm printing it out and nailing it to my wall!
I hope you're right to leave Feinstein off the list of problem dems. As a Californian, I trust her about as much as I trust Karl Rove.
67. Murkowski (AK). Up for re-election in 2010, although it's unclear if she'll face a serious challenge
Actually Murkowski herself seems to sincerely believe she is likely to get a serious challenge... from Gov. Palin. Dunno what that does to her behavior.
Vinny: "Guys, there's a much bigger difference between voting against something and filibustering it. Some Rep senators might vote against it, but also vote against the filibuster."
That's an excellent point. One of the reasons I despise Feinstein and Schumer is that they make a bill or nomination inevitable with their backroom sabotage, then refuse to filibuster, and then vote against it to cover their pathetic, hypocritical asses. But now that it's a democratic president trying to push through legislation and nominees, hopefully we can count on their Republican counterparts to sacrifice their principles and allow themselves to be bought off, skip the filibuster and then cast a losing vote against Obama for CYA electoral purposes.
Once we get 60 to get the bill on the floor, nine of those weasels get to pad their conservative voting records with a meaningless no vote and still leave Obama with the needed 51.
This is why I'm glad to have Rahmbo on our side even though I hate him. He no doubt have a system for doling out these meaningless voting record padding votes (and other forms of political bribery) to the weak-spined conservatives that we need to help fix this FUBAR mess of a country.
I'm not looking for senatorial landslides - just 51-49 on healthcare, the green job initiative and relaxing restrictions on Cuba. Is that too much to hope for?
I have to disagree with this:
61. Specter (PA). Under re-election pressure in a state that Obama carried by double digits. Mitigating factor: possible that he'll be under pressure from the right too in the form of a primary challenge
I think it's very unlikely, given his health and age, that Specter will even run for re-election. Of course, this might make him even more maverick-y and sympathetic to Obama.
(This is a second attempt...sorry if redundant). A major thorn for Obama will be the Employee Free Choice Act. I doubt he'll be able to hold all Dems - especially those from southern states - let alone get any Repubs. But that might be a blessing in disguise for Dems, as the unions can blame the Republicans.
*
Vitter!
He's an incredible swinger
Nate I hope you read this far. I will second a visit to Free State while in Lawrence. Also try Yello Sub down on Iowa. The one up on campus is now gone.
As a sports fan, you must make a visit to Allen Field House and the Hall of Fame.
Nate, Landrieu didn't endorse Clinton. She stayed neutral until June, then endorsed Obama.
http://www.marylandrieu2008.com/news/press_releases?id=0013
Obsessed, I utterly despise Feinstein too, but I'm hoping she will be as good a little soldier for Obama as she was a big toady to the Bushies. I think she's more interested in making herself look good to whatever administration is in office than actually representing the people of California. With any luck, that means she'll spend the next four years kissing Obama's ass.
With any luck, that means she'll spend the next four years kissing Obama's ass.
From your lips to Feinstein's ear to Feinstein's lips to Obama's ass.
Hey, then I'd be kissing Obama's ass by proxy! Fine by me :)
Oil closed down, below $44 a barrel.
Palin' approal rating was linked to the price of oil.
Looks like God is closing a door.
With continued oil deflation, she may not run for reelction, lest face defeat.
Any opinions on how much significance we should attribute to the massive drop in oil prices?
Olympia Snowe doesn't have to switch and she won't. There's really no reason for her to do so.
If she didn't cross over when Jeffords did, she'll never do it. She won't need to. The Republicans aren't about to make life difficult for her. They have few enough Senators as it is. They were willing to make room for Joe Lieberdamn and he's pro-choice.
No way will that happen. But, she can cross the isle and vote for anything she likes and nobody can do a thing about it. If the right-wing complains she can tell them she's "an independent voice for Maine's citizens" or some such shit.
They'd love her more in Maine if someone like Rush Limbaugh attacked her.
To concur with Cugel
Olympia Snowe is extremely well-respected by the ONE constituency that really matters, the voters of the state of Maine. There is NO ONE in the state that would have the stature to beat her in an election.
As for theocratic or neo-con republicans that would seek to disminish her stature, they need all the friends they can get right now as it is. Cold political calculation dictates it.
Ayuh, we like the stuff Olympia does for our state (even if it is not where we live anymore)
Public Service Announcement: Mule Rider has been banned permanently
Public Service Announcement: Mule Rider has been banned permanently
That's public service I can believe in!
Nate Silver said...
Public Service Announcement: Mule Rider has been banned permanently
December 4, 2008 3:50 PM
**********
wow Nate !
I will spread the world in Europe !
;)
wv:finally !
correction:
world = word
stupid fingers...
One less troll to feed!
Hooray
That's not even Nate. Nate's blogger profile isn't private.
Joe The Fake Virginian said...
One less troll to feed!
Hooray
December 4, 2008 4:10 PM
*********
@ joe
well...to be honest,
I miss "He" the marine's cook,remember ?
The guy tied my guts !
:P
bye,
now I'll go back to my "read only" mode, leaving you folks to this important discussion on "60 seats"
...I wouldn't want to replace Muley.
;)
You miss a key point.
"Presidentitis" seems to disproportionately affect members of the senior body.
With this being the year that voters finally got over their predisposition for Governors and elected a sitting Senator, there are probably at least a couple of dozen Senators out there who have a vested interest in Obama's presidency being perceived as at least somewhat successful.
The comedy trolls were good after being on the site for about a week. It was easy to bypass them as warranted. I was able to tell the parody more quickly, having learned my way, mostly by reading.
The cut and pasters were no fun. The drive-by shooters and curse monkeys were the real problem. While this site attracts some very liberal minds to post, intelligent CONSERVATIVE replies might have added value, especially to challenge group-think when like-minded individuals post. Those thoughtful souls from "the other side" seemed rare and were often sock-puppeted by people obsessed with swearing and insulting others.
Sometimes, the threads turned into "As The 538 Turns". This was a shame.
Joe The Fake Virginian said...
While this site attracts some very liberal minds to post, intelligent CONSERVATIVE replies might have added value, especially to challenge group-think when like-minded individuals post. Those thoughtful souls from "the other side" seemed rare and were often sock-puppeted by people obsessed with swearing and insulting others.
December 4, 2008 4:32 PM
*********
@Joe,
Yes I remember,I was here since june 2008, and you are right about this.
I especially remember "virginia conservative".
anyway,sorry to interrupt,now I get a grip for real.
bye.
:)
don't forget about Dianne Feinstein. She could be a problem on military issues.
I agree with A. J.: Lindsey Graham is a clear swing on cloture votes. He's conservative, sure, but he respects process and the rule of law, and he's not particularly cowed by the leadership.
don't forget about Dianne Feinstein. She could be a problem on military issues.
and judiciary issues
and corruption issues
and economic issues
If Graham and McCain refuse to filibuster, life will be good.
Read George Lakoff's books. There are no moderates. There are those who vote on issues based on their values and sometimes they vote conservative and sometimes they vote progressive.
How about this scenario: Feinstein runs for and is elected CA governor in 2010, where she probably won't do any more damage than Arnold or Pete Wilson. Gavin Newsom takes over her Senate seat (since he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at the governorship). Feinstein potential "loose cannon" problem solved. California Republicans' heads collectively explode. Everyone wins.
Fantasy? Maybe, but it'd sure be fun to watch.
RufusRules --
DiFi will be 77 years old in 2010.
I've never heard of a freshman Governor elected at such an advanced age -- let alone the biggest state in the union.
Hatch? Seriously? I hope you aren't basing that solely on the fact that the Democrats of Utah (both of them) supported Barack Obama in the primary. I'd love to see Utah get bluer or even just a lighter shade of red, but the only thing I see Hatch doing to contribute to that process is to finally retire.
hill.tops: It's well known here in CA that she's thinking about it. Consider this from The Man himself, Willie Brown, who usually has the inside scoop:
I had a 2 1/2-hour lunch with Dianne Feinstein at North Beach Restaurant the other day, and I came away more convinced than ever that she's serious about running for governor in 2010. She didn't tell me outright that she's running. She talked a lot about how she wanted to make sure the Democrats have 60 seats in the Senate after Nov. 4 so they and Barack Obama will be filibuster-proof - assuming he's elected as well. But she didn't talk about staying in the Senate, either.
She talked about how things are supposed to work between the Legislature and the governor, and she wondered why they aren't working these days - and did I have any formula for fixing it?
She even brought notes. I don't know who prepared them, but somebody had done what appeared to be a detailed briefing paper on the state of California, including its finances. It was not the kind of information you'd be seeking unless you figured that dealing with that mess might soon be your job.
Nate Silver said...
"Public Service Announcement: Mule Rider has been banned permanently"
That's GREAT NEWS!!!!
FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!11!!!1!!
revider: cross between a reviler and a divider
Gavin Newsom takes over her Senate seat (since he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at the governorship). Feinstein potential "loose cannon" problem solved. California Republicans' heads collectively explode. Everyone wins.
Newsom will never win a statewide election. Appointing him to take over the Feinstein's seat for two years would all but guarantee the GOP a Senate pickup.
walt526: Sadly, you're probably right. Especially after all those Prop 8 ads that made him look like a total freak. I did say that scenario was a fantasy :)
How is warmth measured when it comes to Sen. Pryor's feelings towards Obama? He did go around the state in support of Obama and argued it would have been much closer had Obama himself campaigned in the state, an argument similar to one made by some guy named Silver no less.
When it comes to the economy, I don't think Pryor will go against his party, which he has sided with 86% of the time according to the Washington Post.
Did anybody see Sen. Pryor interviewed in Bill Maher's "Religulous"? Pretty funny stuff. Pretty scary though.
I swore I'd never vote for Feinstein again, but if she loses for governor, and thereby keeps her senate seat ... ugh ... might have to vote for her to get rid of her. I agree that there's not much she could do to screw up CA anymore than it's already screwed up.
Maybe she'll just get indicted over her messy connections with her hubby's war-profiteering business.
obsessed: Yeah, I especially enjoyed Pryor's comment to Maher that "you don't need to pass an IQ test to be a U.S. Senator." Or President, obviously. That movie was deeply disturbing.
Maybe she'll just get indicted over her messy connections with her hubby's war-profiteering business.
I have *no idea* how she's been able to wiggle away from that mess for so long. Like I posted earlier, she's done an amazing job of keeping it under the public radar. I suppose it helps to have the vocal support of a so-called sunshine group (whose chair just happens to be a business partner and crony of your husband).
If you're interested in some good old-fashioned corruption, you can see more of the story here: http://www.metroactive.com/feinstein.
At least she's resigned from that subcommittee now.
Um, here actually.
I hear Senator Craig swings too.
...and Senator Vitter too.
Dagnabbit! I go to KU and would totally attend that conference, but I have class all morning. Will you be signing autographs?
RufusRules—
She didn't resign. She moved up because Harry Reid quit the Appropriations Committee when he moved from Minority to Majority Leader in 2007. A number of subcommittee ranking members then moved on up the appropriations ladder to chair a subcommittee more desirable than the one they'd been ranking member on in the previous Congress. I'm pretty sure he upward progression began thus: Dorgan to Energy & Water, Feinstein to Interior, Johnson to Military Construction...
My favorite thing about this faux scandal that the right tried to breath life into in late March and early April of 2007 was that the Senator never bothered to address it. Something in her favor as far as I'm concerned. Public officials shouldn't be held to account for people not knowing how their government works as a general rule and that's all that was going on here.
THANK YOU Nate. This is the fivethirtyeight that I want. This post addresses the most important issue in American politics right now: Barack Obama's ability to get things done.
Nate - I'm surprised that you (nor anyone else here!) has mentioned Biden. Joe, that is. Yes, I know he's now VP and will be resigning from the Senate (at the last minute, on Jan. 20!) - but I think it's worth noting that he has excellent relationships with Senators on BOTH sides of the aisle due to his vast experience - and that he could become a key player for Team Obama getting things done. In fact, with all the other luminaries on the Obama crew so far, this might become Biden's key role - being the bridge to Congress to help get key legislation passed. He knows how that Senate chamber works - front, back, and side doors!
@ loner: Public officials shouldn't be held to account for people not knowing how their government works as a general rule and that's all that was going on here.
Are you serious? If so, you're really funny. If "government works as a general rule" that way, it's because it's generally hard to keep corruption out of government. And it's that kind of cynicism that ensures nothing ever changes. The right did beat the drum on the issue, but that doesn't make it any less shady. Also, the article I linked to is not from some right-wing publication; rather, it's from a local - and generally liberal - Silicon Valley paper.
Gup1138, I think you're right on about Biden. I've been thinking the reason he hasn't been assigned a specific portfolio is that BHO intends to use him primarily as a lobbyist/whip for the White House's agenda. Maybe he'll tag team with Rahm - Biden for the Senate and Rahm for the House.
I too am anxious to see what role Biden plays in the coming administrations. With all of the talk about how Cheney was much more than a VP should be, it seems to follow that Biden will have a much more scaled back positions that, following on the heels of Dick Cheney, will look even more minuscule.
www.procrastinationmaterial.blogspot.com
I do hope this doesn't go to the SCOTUS.
I'm 99.9% that this will not get decided by the SCOTUS. One of the sides would have to appeal that any Minnesota Supreme Court ruling or the implementation of the recount was unconstitutional (eg, a protected class was systematically disenfranchised). I don't see that happening.
If for some reason the losing candidate wants to challenge the result and exhausts its options on appealing on purely procedural grounds with Minnesota state agencies and courts, then the matter would be taken up by the US Senate.
All of the major issues raised to date have been procedural in nature, not constitutional.
Orrin Hatch? Seriously? What don't I know about him?
Also, even if she does feel like running in 2010, I really find it hard to believe that Dianne Feinstein would win a gubernatorial primary at the age of 77. She'd have to have some competition... Gavin Newsom is toast, as is Fabian Nunez, but there are others. Jerry Brown, Antonio Villaraigosa, Steve Westly, etc. None of those guys wouldn't face some kind of obstacle on their road to Sacramento, but I don't think there's any reason to believe that Feinstein wouldn't hit some bumps as well.
Statler: This bullshit is a nonstarter. There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents someone with dual citizenship from being President, as long as that person is a "natural born citizen" of the U.S. and has done nothing to renounce U.S. citizenship. Obama was born in Hawaii, which makes him a "natural born" citizen. Any Kenyan citizenship conferred by his father is irrelevant (or should be).
Still, that the bullshit is being slung by Thomas and Keyes just confirms that they are the biggest Republican tools in history. As the mighty KRS-One said, "Uncle Tom house niggaz, too scary."
As a CA resident, I'm torn on the idea of Feinstein running for Gov. I'm not at all impressed by her as a politician and depending on her competition in the primary, may very well volunteer for a competing Dem. That said, I would imagine she could get a lot of support from CA Repubs as they are likely to see her as the most moderate candidate on either side of the aisle.
I know John Garamendi (sp?) has announced he is running for CA Gov. Anyone know anything about him or his standing in CA as a politician?
Thomas and Keys make Uncle Tom look like Bobby Seal!
Keys is an opportunist and a publicity hound, and who can ever know what goes through the mind of Clarence Thomas. But this birth certificate thing is a pure right-wing fantasy (the claim is not that Obama has dual citizenship but that he was actually born in Kenya). See http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
I see no chance of it surviving tomorrow's SCOTUS conference.
Actually, I think the distinction between voting against something and voting to filibuster is important.
For example, a moderate Republican may agree with the bulk of a bill which he or she expects will pass in an up or down vote. If this Republican comes from a conservative state, he or she may vote for cloture but against the bill itself, thus allowing the bill to become law without becoming too exposed politically.
RufusRules—
I know all about it and its an idiotic example of folks on the left with a longstanding complaint against a particular politician trying to make something out of nothing that isn't standard operating procedure (the resignation stupidity IIRC was tacked on by another publication of the same ideological bent in the North Bay when they reprinted it.) I followed its genesis into a faux scandal for a few weeks in 2007 just to amuse myself with how the tactics of those who'll use anything they can find no matter how idiotic and of what origin to attempt to destroy the "enemy" by manufacturing a media/public firestorm. Also SOP.
I can't help but think when I read all these ideological slants on how government works, and this is one, that I'm very lucky the vast center that isn't very ideological holds sway in this country. The single worst thing the government did thus far in this century was to try to circumvent judicial process over Terry Schiavo and we're damned lucky that the unelected branch, with public support, slapped down the other two branches then. When I heard Obama describe his vote in favor of that legislation as the vote he most regretted is when I decided I could vote for him.
Can someone please explain how, after the last 8 years of carnage, there can be any Republican supporters left in the country?
Sorry, I'm a bit confused..
:/
loner: Well, I'm with you on the Obama/Schiavo issue, but I don't think the Feinstein flap matches that kind of ideological ferocity. I'm not suggesting there be a full-blown congressional investigation over it at this point, especially since she's not in charge of that committee anymore. I'm just saying it casts a significant cloud over her reputation and ethics as an ongoing public servant, and that there should be systems in place to prevent those kinds of conflicts of interest - or at least some kind of public accountability for them. Now, I know there's a "go along to get along" reality in Congress, and I certainly don't think Feinstein is the only Senate member who's guilty of this crap, but I also don't think she has truly represented the interests of California, or the interests of good government, in her voting and committee leadership positions.
I know John Garamendi (sp?) has announced he is running for CA Gov. Anyone know anything about him or his standing in CA as a politician?
The guy is the quintessential career politician, and not a very good one IMHO. He's run for governor several times in the past: early 1980s, 1994, and briefly in the recall election in 2003. He and Bustamante swapped seats in 2006 because of term limits (Bustamante went from Lt Gov to Insurance Commissioner and Garamendi went from Insurance Commissioner to Lt Gov). Garamendi narrowly survived the primary and barely beat McClintock.
He's been a career politician for 35 years and has run for pretty much every office in the California state government at one point or another. Personally I think that he's a clown. Despite being in public office for so long, he often comes across as "not quite ready from primetime." The guy just oozes used car salesman who is nowhere near as appealing as he obviously thinks he is.
There have been numerous corruption rumors about Garamendi since he first stint as Insurance Commissioner in the early 1990s, but nothing has seemed to have stuck.
Needless to say, I'm not enthused by the prospect of him being the Democratic nominee for governor. Although he'll probably be it.
NYT: "So, Republicans have generally been happy with Barack Obama’s cabinet choices, including a certain someone at the State Department"
Tells you all you need to know about the third term of George 'Huuuuussein' Bush. Radical change, man.
Nate, head. ass. pull. out. from. yo.rearrange. One day, we hope.
any chance that rather than believing in this crap, Thomas has actually referred the Kenyan birth certificate to the rest of the Supreme Court in an attempt to knock the issue on the head once and for all?
From memory, isn't the guy bringing this case an anti-semitic fruitcake?
Keyes is an attention-seeking fruitcake.
Oh, and Sherwick, nice to see you post. Where have you been?
Better when sherwick removes his posts - such uninformed partisan garbage.
That Hagel error was strange - is this the kind of thing that happens when you suck Obama's invisible dick for a whole year?
Nate, any chance of removing Zapunar McKintard too? If anything he is worse than Mule Rider - at least Mule Ride occasionally said something meaningful. I like argument, but childish sexual insults are just sad.
Wrong about Landrieu. She was one of those who endorsed Obama on the last day, putting him over the top.
Landrieu Endorses OBAMA: http://marylandrieu.com/news/press_releases?id=0013
Paul from Santa Fe said "...the claim is not that Obama has dual citizenship but that he was actually born in Kenya"
The claim keeps shifting around. He was born in Kenya, and the birth certificate shown on the web was a Photoshop, was the original story; when right-wingers (from Fox, worldnutdaily, and the lawyer who filed the first of these suits) were allowed to look at the physical document, the story became that Hawaiian officials fraudulently issued it, to cover for the actual birth in Kenya; then the Kenyan birth story fell apart, so the problem became that Obama had had an Indonesian stepfather as a child and supposedly acquired Indonesian citizenship; when it was then pointed out that a. he did not, in fact, under Indonesian law acquire citizenship and b. US citizenship isn't affected by what other countries do unless you renounce it, well then we got the newest version, which is about Kenyan dual citizenship (point b. still applies).
pratic: it's just not pratical to shoot down every wingnut theory, they just come up with new ones.
Interesting that Mike Castle (R-DE) didn't make the list; he's a consistent moderate, as he must be to survive long-term in Delaware politics.
And Kay Hagan showed some remarkable signs of being pro-gay rights, which is hopeful.
Lieberman will be confined to voting along Obama's agenda (at least at first) Lieberman's approval ratings in his state are low due to his recent actions. If he wants to keep his seat, he won't be a roadblock in the dem caucus
@lisa:
Mike Castle is in the House of Representatives; the post is about the Senate.
I don't believe that the Democrats will be the problem. They get to have it both ways. Support the motion for cloture but vote against the bill.
I think it is important to clarify it still takes 51 votes to pass a bill in the Senate - it takes 60 to get to take a vote.
Nate I would strongly disagree that salazar is even remotely off of Obama's side. I was on staff for BO in CO and Salazar campaigned hard for BO; he did RV tours and all kinds of public appearances. If he were to depart from Obama in any major way it would be very damaging for him in a state where he is not the most popular senator. I think it is a political reality that he needs to side with Barack on major issues and decisions and I think he is personally aligned with BO.
I agree, change the comment about Landrieu supporting Clinton, it's not correct.
[Webb] Never really got on the Obama bandwagon and has his idiosyncratic streak.
Yeah; he really stayed off that Obama bandwagon, by campaigning with Obama multiple times -- early, mid, and late campaign. He did four SW cities on Obama's behalf in one day in October, followed by the rally in Roanoke with Obama.
Yes, he has an idiosyncratic streak, but Obama can count on him.
Salazar isn't in the senate anymore
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How's China printing industry developed this years, who can tell us?
Professional printing company produce finest printing products, like books, flyers, labels...
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China based plastic injection moulding services with low costs and supeior quality, you may contact us of our plastic jar today!
plastic cap widely used for drinking water bottles and juices and beverages packing industries...
Steel and aluminum scaffolding for construction is a very useful tool.
We all know printing services in China is very cheap.
plastic pail in China has very competitive price and good quality.
Professional plastic bottle through plastic blow molding process in complicated.
molded plastic parts products are widely used in our daily lifes.
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