12.30.2008

Reid Has Few Ways to Block Burris Appointment

I'm going to be repeating myself here, but as the reporting on this story has been poor (save for the Huffington Post and a couple of other outlets), it appears to be necessary.

The notion that the Democrats can refuse to seat Roland Burris out of hand is, at best, constitutionally dodgy. This is because of the Supreme Court's 1967 Powell v McCormack decision, in which it ruled that the Congress's power to judge the qualifications of its members is expressly limited to the conditions mentioned in the Constitution (e.g. age, residency, and U.S. Citizenship). If the Congress wants to deny membership for any other reason, it has another power, which is expulsion. Although the power of expulsion is much broader than the power of exclusion, it comes with a higher price tag: two-thirds of the Senate must vote to expel one of its members rather than a simple majority.

Given this, Reid and the Democrats have essentially three strategies they could pursue if and when Burris's name comes before the Senate Chamber:

1) Attempt to exclude Burris by majority vote, almost certainly inviting a court challenge.
2) Attempt to expel Burris after seating him.
3) Bluff at either of the above, but with the ultimate expectation that Burris will be seated.

1) Attempt to exclude Burris by majority vote, almost certainly inviting a court challenge.

Reid's language about refusing to seat Burris seems to be an invocation of Article 1, Section 5 of the Constitution, which holds that "Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members." In the case of Burris, however, there was no election in play (rather, he was appointed), so there are no questions about elections or returns - and McCormack holds that the Congress's ability to judge the qualifications of its members is limited to circumstances that don't pertain in the case of Burris.

Still, the Senate could hold a vote and decline to seat Burris, and take their chances in court. Then, Burris (or Blagojevich?) would sue, probably also seeking an injunction that required the Senate to seat Burris until a ruling by th court.

Reid would seem to be a longshot to win such a lawsuit, since McCormack speaks fairly explicitly to the issue at hand, but it's possible that he could find some sort of clever argument or that the Court would refuse to take the case -- it's a different court than it was in 1967. Or Burris, embarrassed by the whole thing, could stand down, although that seems unlikely since Burris has lost more elections than Lyndon LaRouche and doesn't seem the type to be easily deterred.

More likely, though, this would succeed only in delaying the inevitable for several weeks.

2) Attempt to
expel Burris after seating him.

Here, the Senate would be on much firmer Constitutional ground. But the power of expulsion has been used very judiciously -- no Senator has been expelled since the Civil War, although several (such as Bob Packwood) have resigned in the face of possible expulsion. And Burris himself has not been accused of any misconduct; the Senate has never before attempted to expel a member under such circumstances. Achieving a two-thirds majority, therefore, might not be easy. There is also a decent chance that an expulsion could trigger a court challenge, although the courts have interpreted the Senate's powers of expulsion to be very broad.

3) Bluff at either of the above, but with the ultimate expectation that Burris will be seated.

The difference here is that Reid would make a show of trying to exclude Burris for the cameras, but would not really try and whip votes. Perhaps the Senate Democrats could thereafter vote to exclude Burris from their caucus, something they have complete discretion over, but which wouldn't have much impact with the Democrats firmly in control of the floor.

*-*

Of these choices, it seems like the first is probably the Democrats' best bet. This way, Reid and the Senate Democrats won't appear to have broken their promise to exclude Burris; instead they'll claim that their hands have been tied by the courts. But, they'll still get their 58th (or 59th) Democratic senator.

141 comments

Otter said...

This would be stupid. Burris is, again, by all accounts cleaner than most guys in Cook County. And respected by many. Sure he'll take heat for this... but really this is one of the better persons Blago could have chosen.

Blago appears to be a crook, but that doesn't make him any different than most of the politicians in this country. The real issue is, most likely, that Blago didn't play ball with Obama and Rham. And the result is that they tipped off the Feds, who then got a wire tap, and now Blago is probably done.

But not before he totally messes with everyone. Reid is a fool trying to block this... why bring more attention to it? This only hurts Obama and the Dems as the First 100 Days approaches.

Let Burris serve for two years and then he'll be voted out. It's not like Blago appointed a bad guy/gal to the seat.

hill.tops said...

THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR MIKE Shanahan

Duncan said...

I don't think this is a matter of not wanting Burris in the seat, but that he has to look like he doesn't, Otter.

DCM in FL said...

expulsion is not a workable option imho

if the senate did not have the gumption to expell Stevens despite his felony convictions [in fact, several senators + Colin Powell were character witnesses for ol' Ted as I recall], then marshalling a 2/3rds vote to expell the sole AA senator is not gonna happen

Burris looks like he is just as qualified to be a caretaker seat filling senator as what's his name that was appointed from DE to hold the 'Biden' seat open for the next cycle

lots of posturing but for the DEMs this clearly beats a special election [which also would be costly - same in MN] + grows the DEM caucus immediately

why Obama weighed in on the matter in favoring of excluding Burris is beyond me, when as POYUS-elect with no stake in the matter presumably, he shoulda just continued to decline to comment

I mean - Obama spoke out to allow Lieberman to stay in the caucus & keep his chairmanship, so he is playing it both ways, fast & loose

STepper said...

I'm on my crackberry so I can't look it up, but there is a case of an appointment that was rejected by the senate about 80+ years ago, So there is senate precedent.

uh said...

Oh, when it comes to things that tend to hurt Democrats' chances of success, you can usually rely on Reid to show plenty of "spine" - spine? What spine? He's doing the mindless, reactionary, docile, typical, "bipartisan" thing, isn't he? If he had spine, he would insist on seating this man. Spine. I scoff at your analysis.

hill.tops said...

DCM in FL-

To build on what you said, the Senate didn't kick out Larry Craig or George Allen.

polls_apart said...

I think Obama spoke out to provide the Senate Democrats cover on the racial issue raised by Bobby Rush's participation in the press conference where Burris was announced. Don't forget: Obama challenged Rush for his seat in the U. S. House of Representatives and lost before he was elected to the IL State Senate.

Doug said...

So, what about the Illinois AG's plan to simply not fill out the paperwork and not certify the appointment? Will that stop him?

John said...

Nate:

Your analysis here is very poor. Your constitutional analysis --- which seems to be based only on your plain reading of Article I --- is simply wrong. Over 200 years of precedent suggest that appointments are treated as elections for the purposes of the "elections and returns" clause.

There are dozens of cases from the early 1800's forward of appointments being treated as elections for this purpose. Even a cursory scan of the history would have informed you of this. I suggest the book United States Senate Election, Expulsion, and Censure Cases, (see http://www.senate.gov/reference/reference_item/election_book.htm) to get started.

On several occasions, the Senate has rejected --- by majority vote --- seating an appointed Senator-designate.

You really are out of your depth here. While I applaud your statistical work on elections, you seem to have no sense of how to approach questions of law or legislative process.

Chris said...

The Senate ought to accept Burris, make whatever excuses it needs and move on. Burris isn't a bad guy, at least by Illinois standards. The senate's inviting trouble by being obstinate for obstinacy's sake. They have a huge majority and the White House. The GOP loves this. It keeps the Dems from passing healthcare and rolling back Bush.

RufusRules said...

This analysis is great, but can't you come up with an option 4 - one that doesn't make the Dems look like idiots? If Burris's hands are clean and he is otherwise an acceptable appointee, Reid needs to man up, seat the guy, and not make a continued spectacle of it. All this posturing is just silly.

Another Mike said...

What is the benefit from fighting the Burris appointment?

1. Is there something wrong with Burris himself? He seems ideal to me, apart from the Blago scandal. Everything I've read says he's as clean and respected as we could have hoped for from an Illinois Democrat. He's likely a caretaker, so the people can choose who represents him in two years. And, he'll certainly be a reliable Obama and Democratic vote.

2. Will his seating hurt Democrats politically/will public opinion be against the Democrats if he becomes a Senator? This seems like a factual question that polling will answer, so we will have to see. There's also the risk to Democrats that blacks will rally around Burris and rejecting him could be politically detrimental. Again, we'll have to see how this plays out. I do not think the answer to the political calculation questions, however, are at all clear. Maybe Democratic Senators and Obama need to come out against the appointment now, but if there is no outcry against the selection, they can then back off their opposition.

3. Some other reason Burris should not be seated that I'm missing?

DCM in FL said...

HILL

I agree, and the list of embarrassing senators allowed to keep their seats is alarming

so on principle, exclusion or explusion 'fail'

why don't they just ask POTUS-elect spiritual advisor [poser] Rick Warren - WW[RW]D ???

he has all the answers & speaks for the nation...

Will said...

Nate: John is right.

As far as the senate is concerned,the clause regarding elections and returns also applies to appointments.

I would like to add that for over a century, all senators were "appointed" by the state legislatures.

In this respect, the senate blocking the appointment of a senator does have constitutional relevance since the elections back then were essentially appointments.

We must not forget that the constitution is a very old document and read it through that context. Sometimes the meaning of clause is not what it seems.

DCM in FL said...

WILL said:

"We must not forget that the constitution is a very old document and read it through that context. Sometimes the meaning of clause is not what it seems."

hhhmmm - the bible & koran are even older...

you mean to tell us that the meaning in those old documents are not what they seem either ???

human nature to pick & choose what serves your personal purposes & furthers their agendas...

anyone else notice the R. Blago & R. Burris share the same initials...

Mainer said...

Various folks on the last thread argued that under the rules of the Senate, an appointment must be certified by the state's governor and secretary of state. As you know, the IL secretary of state has said he will not certify the appointment. It appears, however, that under IL law, an appointment can be made without such a certification.

I am admittedly no expert and have seen differing opinions by scholars of election law as to whether the refusal of the secretary of state would mean that the Senate would have an easy way to reject the appointment or if this would not block the seating of the appointee.

Cugel said...

Not only is John right about the power of the Senate to block Blago's appointment of Burris by majority vote, they might not even have to:

* 12:59 pm - Illinois Secretary of State Jesse White’s office says they will not certify the appointment. Certification is required to be seated in the Senate.

As I have previously stated publicly, I cannot co-sign a document that certifies any appointment by Rod Blagojevich for the vacant United State Senate seat from Illiois.

Although I have respect for former Attorney General Roland Burris, because of the current cloud of controversy surrounding the Governor, I cannot accept the document.


http://thecapitolfaxblog.com/2008/12/30/this-just-in-179/

There is no "appointment" until the nominee is certified by the Secretary of State so there would be NO-ONE for the Senate to have to block. They could simply refuse to seat Burris until the legal wrangling is finished, THEN move to block him assuming he wins in State Court, wins appeal to the Illinois Supreme Court and possibly wins federal appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Now it may be that White is constitutionally required to certify Burris and of course, Burris could sue the secretary in State Court for a writ demanding that he be certified, but that would probably tie up the case for months, during which the Illinois legislature could move towards impeachment, and the Senate and public opinion could pressure Burris to stand down.

All this is going to take months, while EVERY DAY Burris's lynching by the press will continue.

I think ultimately he's going to be unable to brazen it out. Burris is stepping into an immense fire-storm beyond his comprehension and he will be destroyed. Republicans will certainly make this an endless media blitzkreig in the hopes of delegitimizing Democrats and the Obama administration.

It's going to be a simply ENDLESS probing of every ethical lapse Burris ever had -- and coming from Illinois politics there are already allegations of questionable lobbying ties and other shady dealings he's been involved with.

By the time the media and Republicans are finished with him, he'll be a "dirty politician." No way he's coming out clean on this as he's trying to pretend right now.

According to Politico, Reid is apparently calling the appointment "unacceptable" and vowing that they won't seat Burris.

Meanwhile Illinois Republicans are already lining up the arguments national Republicans and the media will be using against Burris:

" Statement from Illinois Republican Party Chairman Andy McKenna on Roland Burris Senate Appointment:

“Blagojevich Democrat Roland Burris is emblematic of the old-school, pay-to-play culture that has plagued Illinois for generations and this appointment is another embarrassment for the people of Illinois."


Expect to see this line of media attack intensified exponentially during the next month or two while Burris struggles with the Secretary of State and Senate Democrats.

Any smart politician would have refused the appointment. There will certainly at MINIMUM be an investigation even if Burris somehow forces his appointment, and the air of impropriety will probably engulf Burris.

PJQ49 said...

The problem with seating Burris is that there is a permanent justifiable suspicion that he got the appointment by corrupt means.

ABowers said...

Dear Senate Democrats,

Find a paper bag and take a couple of deep breaths. Then think this through.
Burris seems to be a fine, qualified candidate and would also put a black back in the Senate.
And since Al Franken is currently 50 votes ahead and likely to win in his election in Minnesota, the Dems would have a 59 to 41 seat majority. This is very close to filibuster proof. Only need one of the 3-5 moderate Republicans to vote for cloture and Voila!! With a big agenda to get through, this is not the time for nervous Nellies.
And the Illinois Senate seat can be decided by the regular process of a primary and regular election in 2010.
Come on Senator Schumer - have a little chat with Harry Reid and tell him to protest all he wants, but don't block the appointment. After all Reid has a good record of saying one thing and doing another.

Eric said...

I still haven't heard a good explanation as to why seating Burris will significantly harm the Democrats.

Just seat the man and get on with the business of running the country, and be glad we are filling the seat with a sympathetic vote. Burris is not a bad appointment regardless of what you think of Blago.

Aaron said...

Those of you who are insisting that Appointments count under the Senate's power to review "elections and returns" aren't responding completely, even if they are correct: what exactly is the legal defect with this appointment that would enable the Senate to deny Burris his seat. Blago is the valid Governor of his state, and has not been impeached or convicted of a crime. His state allows the Governor to make this appointment. Burris meets all of the qualifications under the constitution. There is no allegation that Burris's appointment was procured through bribery.

Whether or not Nate is a constitutional scholar, I think he's got the gist right: the Dem's don't seem to have a valid legal means to prevent Burris from taking his seat.

DCM in FL said...

Blago has the sole legal & constitutional right to make this appointment, and has done so in a timely [if somewhat unseemly] manner - even if many would prefer otherwise than this 'politics as usual'

Obama has the sole right to appoint Warren to give the invocation - even if it is extremely offensive & distasteful & smacks of crass 'politics as usual'

besides, Blago & Burris have a fine argument that to prevent a lawful appointment deprives the citizens of IL from their due representation in the US Senate for capricious reasons

after all, even though it appears that on tape Blago was caught red-handed talking about selling positions - this is the USA where he is presumably innocent until proven guilty in a court of law [as opposed to the court of public opinion]

perhaps Blago will be found to have been 'entrapped' or setup ?

even Ted Stevens got the vitual benefit of the doubt both before & after his felony convictions for actual graft - and his senate seat & voting priveleges were never revoked

so how can anyone justify not seating this man ?

IMHO, Burris & Blago would win injunctive relief in the courts & the DEMS + Obama will get even more egg on their faces & drag this silly spectacle out endlessly to the amusement of the GOPers & pundits

lose/lose/lose

Burris would be 73 when he stood for election, and odds or that he would be merely a caretaker for 2 years

what is the big deal for the accomodation crowd & no drama obama ???

think they do want to make the courts cram this down their throats.

and back to Lieberman - geez, if he can be rationalized & allowed to stay, how can Burris be excluded ???

shortchanging IL a senator indefinitely during this period of time when action is required on every issue makes less sense than alternately just allowing Burris to fill the seat

Will said...

DCM Said:

"hhhmmm - the bible & koran are even older...

you mean to tell us that the meaning in those old documents are not what they seem either ???"
Of course the Bible and Koran don't mean what it explicitly states and needs interpretation. I don't know of anyone that would disagree with that.

What's your point?

DCM in FL said...

Blago shoulda appointed Norm Coleman to the seat...

then both Franken & Coleman would be in the next congress !!!

besides, if history tells us anything about Norm, he will do ANYTHING to advance himself [switch parties, change his politics, lie & steal, etc] - so moving over to crooked IL politics would be a natch for Norm !!!

and then he could graciouslt conced MN to AL - and dare the senate not to seat him...lol

now THAT would be endless fun & games

Matthew said...

You're missing the point, Aaron. The Senate doesn't need a legal reason to reject--any/no reason is necessary. The Constitution says "Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members." That's it. If the Senate wants to reject his appointment, they can. They should, and hopefully they will.

John said...

@ Aaron:

you asked, "what exactly is the legal defect with this appointment that would enable the Senate to deny Burris his seat?"

Well, first off, any initial refusal to seat him would not be final. It would be accompanied by a referral of the matter to the committee on rules and admin, which handles election disputes and the like. They would then conduct an investigation and report back to the Senate. The Senate could then either vote to vacate the seat or choose to seat Burris.

The logic behind the referral would be what they are saying --- that all Blago appointments are presumed suspect until found not to be. An investigation could turn up a quid pro quo or not, but there's no harm in having one.

But the bottom line is that the Senate has the power, and their use of it doesn't have to be smart, much less rational. If they want to exclude him they can find a justification. It may not meet your standards, but it's not your power.

DCM in FL said...

WILL

have a conversation on that issue with the evangelicals like Warren & Hagee et al about their personal literal interpretations of biblical lore to justify their preaching discrimination & prejudice...

THAT is my point - whether the content/meaning in a document is dynamic or static depends on your personal self-interests

like the GOPers claiming the constitution should be 'strictly' interpreted to reinforce their static self-serving positions

as opposed to those reviled activist judges who dare look at the constitution & laws as dynamic, living & open to revision & updating for modern times

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Burris accepted because he has nothing to loose politically. This is probably his only chance of getting to this position at this point.

After watching all the spin on T.V. I'm sensing the mood might be to allow him to be seated. Obama's hands are clean of this appointment after speaking out against it. He's presumably clean of the Blago investigation.

The guy seems like a good temporary fill until the seat comes up for re-election. At that point Jackson or someone else for that matter could run.

If the RNC wasn't so busy distributing Barack the Magic Negro and Star Spanglish Banner music there wouldn't be many more domestic drama to talk about apart from the MN recount. Good thing we can always count on the GOP to steal the show.

fred said...

Lets just seat him and move on. As I said in the prior string, I think there is little chance they can stop him from being seated, and little chance they can win in court.

I predict one thing - Burris will poll very well in IL, and that will put this thing to bed. He was a great choice for the seat on myriad levels, and there is no stench around him. The Burris family has a great name downstate as well as upstate. He will have a good shot at winning re-election.

He has no taint, and those folks up the string just don't know IL. The folks there know the corrupt ones, this is not a Daley.

fred said...

liberal defender of freedom-

Burris is from down-state and thus has a much better shot at winning re-election than Jackson does.

Thomas said...

I'd have to point out that, while Burris might appear to be an okay politician right now, he currently has effectively no identity on the national political stage.

So, Republicans will use this opportunity to define him as a corrupt member of the Illinois political establishment, guilty by association with Blagojevich. As already stated on this thread, this has already begun. Whether Burris is a good guy or not, he will be politically toxic by mid-January.

I would have to agree that an appointment would almost certainly count as an election, so the Senate Democrats could justify an exclusion that way. However, there is no actual conviction or impeachment yet. It might be hard legally to fight that battle.

DCM in FL: The usage of language has changed dramatically over the past 400 years. Words are not immutable: as English changes, versions of the Bible are changed and updated to correlate with current meanings of the words. To suggest that you could read the original King James edition of the bible, for instance, and understand every word, without having studied the language of the time, is at the very least absurd. The meaning of passages is certainly not what it seems. To state otherwise would be ignorant of the development of language.

Medusa said...

"I still haven't heard a good explanation as to why seating Burris will significantly harm the Democrats".

How do the people of Illinois feel about Harris' appointment? If they are unhappy about it, the voters could take it out on the democrats in 2010. The Republicans would be smart to put up a strong candidate for that seat.

Mark said...

Matthew, although the senate has successfully refused to seat several individuals prior to Adam Clayton Powell (Theodore Bilbo comes to mind), the Powell case in 1967 seems to be the final word on this - the Senate in fact CANNOT refuse to seat someone who meets the basic qualifications set forth in the Constitution. Unless it goes to court again and the current Supreme Court overturns the Powell case, which seems unlikely, I don't see any way around this.

Eric said...

The Republicans have zero credibility on the issue of corruption. Let them say what they want about Burris. The only people who will believe them are their own partisans.

fred said...

Thomas,

Burris will play well on the national political stage. He interviews well and is a great guy. I think he will be a pragmatic uniter in the Senate and fit in well.

Lets wait for some polling in IL before we go ape shit on this guy. I think he will poll well.

fred said...

Nate-

I really don't think your dig on Burris ("he has lost more than LaRouche") is well placed. You are new to the state and too young to remember this guy as a politico in any case.

He is from Centralia down-state, has great name recongition there and across the state, even in Chicago. He is a great choice.

Bup said...

Reid and the senate have to do everything they can to keep Burris from becoming a senator.

Democrats, right now, have the moral high ground in the country. Shrugging 'whaddya gonna do?' and seating him destroys all that in one swoop.

If they can't stop him from being seated, they have to exclude him from the caucus. Then, in 2010, they have to run someone against him in the primary and give him no party money.

Democrats' credibility is worth a hell of a lot more than 60 senators for a 2 year period (and that's all it would be).

Aaron Barnhart said...

Gee, that's funny, John, but I thought Nate quoted a court case. You quoted a web page.

And when I turn to that web page, I read the following: "Since 1789, the Senate has expelled only 15 of its entire membership, all for disloyalty to the United States. In 1797 William Blount of Tennessee became the first senator to be expelled because of his involvement in a conspiracy that the Senate determined to be 'entirely inconsistent with his public trust and duty as a Senator.' The other 14 expulsions were of Senators charged with supporting the Confederacy during the Civil War. In several other cases, the Senate considered expulsion proceedings but either found the Senator not guilty or failed to act before the Senator resigned" (most recently, I believe, Bob Packwood).

None of these cases remotely applies to the Burris situation, John. You are blowing hypotheticals up Nate's actuals.

And as for the allegedly formidable secretary of state ...

The senate statement came as Illinois Secretary of State Jesse White, an African American who is one of the state's most popular vote getters, said he would not certify Burris.

But White aides acknowledged the lack of a signature on the form is symbolic and the office doesn't believe it will have any practical impact on Blagojevich's appointment.

"We feel the governor can still take the appointment to the Senate," White spokesman David Druker said.
-- Chicago Trib

I knew Blago's wily gambit would pay off the moment it was announced. Amazing that some 24 years after he ran in that power-packed U.S. Senate primary of '84, Burris is going to realize his dream.

Michael (mbw) said...

Burris would have been a good caretaker choice if the process itself didn't get him so deeply identified with Blago. Now he would be a very weak candidate here in 2010. He also was never actually in the same league as Schakowsky or Jackson with regard to potential to be a progressive leader. Jackson now is unfortunately also tainted by Blago. Looking ahead to 2010, I think Schakowsky would not only be the best senator, but also have a good chance at the polls. If, however, Blago has succeeded at stirring up racial divisions well enough to put the Ds at extra risk, then ironically the best candidate would likely be none other than #1: Valerie Jarrett.

fred said...

Why the hell are all you dems on this thread rolling over and saying Burris is tainted? HE IS NOT! He gave Blago $4500, a pittance and it very normal for powerful dems to fund each other.

You should be arguing that Burris is not tainted, and just because Blago appointed him does not affect his untainted personal story.

He was the first black to jump in the city pool in Centralia in 1953.

He went to law school at a time I am not sure blacks were allowed in most IL law schools.

He has survived IL politics without a single scandal.

Give Burris a chance, you will like him.

HE IS NOT TAINTED!!!!!!!

Heck, even Pat Buchanan on MSNBC said seat the guy and he is not tainted.

fred said...

mbw-

I think you are wrong and he will poll fine. I guess it is possible that the press may eat him alive and ruin his current positives, but time will tell. He needs to get out in front of this and is already doing so. His MSNBC interview was very good.

fred said...

Here is a balanced article on his history:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16943.html

fred said...

Here is the Burris interview on MSNBC:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/28439611#28439611

John said...

@ aaron:

Are you kidding me? First off, unlike 99% of the posters here, I work in the Senate. Let me take your main points:

1) Nate quote a court case. Right. But the problem is that the case he quoted only applies to the qualifications of the prospective Senator. No one is debating the qualifications of Burris. They are arguing that the election is tainted. Any challenge done now would be a challenge to the election of the Senator. The Powell case has zero --- ZERO --- to do with this. It's moot. This is a classic example of a little knowledge being a bad thing.

2) You quoted a blurb from a web page about a book. And to boot, you quoted the section on expulsion. We're not debating expulsion here. We're debating the process of not seating a Senator. If you bothered to actually read the book, you'd see that there are dozens upon dozens of cases --- both election and appointment --- in which the Senate has considered not seating someone.

Remember --- to not seat someone is a temporary measure for the purpose of conducting an investigation into the election/appointment. It's not the final judgement --- that would be the vacating of the seat or the choosing to seat the member.

The bottom line is that Nate screwed up. The Powell case is not controlling here. This is about the Senate's power to judge the election, not the qualification, of the member. I'll take 200 years of history over Nate Silver any day.

please.

Brian said...

DCM-

There is a difference between saying the meaning of a document is static and saying that it has to be read literally. It's true that literal interpretations are static, but not all static interpretations are literal.

If I read it correctly, one thrust of your argument was to point out how it is ridiculous to interpret documents literally without context, then try to apply that rebuttal to "the GOPers claiming the constitution should be 'strictly' interpreted". That's not fair at all. It is possible to believe that a document really does mean something constant, taking context into account, and that only one interpretation is correct and that past interpretations may have been wrong without believing in a literal interpretation.

The other side of your argument is to point out that different interpretations serve different interests. But it is too cynical to say that for everyone "whether the content/meaning in a document is dynamic or static depends on your personal self-interests". People may believe things against their own self interests. I think those who interpret more strictly are more likely to do so. Furthermore, it would be possible to support any position while claiming meaning is dynamic, so the appeal to static meaning would seem to restrict its adherents' ability to impose their ideological preferences.

If everyone agreed with "those reviled activist judges who dare look at the constitution & laws as dynamic, living & open to revision & updating for modern times" there would be even more political strife than there is now. Law would be a game of stacking the benches with partisans who would ignore what the representative process came up with as law and instead judges would twist the constitution and laws to what they wished the legislature had passed. Already we see that rulings are increasingly suspect because people don't trust the neutrality of the courts. Further spread of the ideology of dynamic meaning will further this alienation.

The constitution has an amendment process. If something is wrong or outdated, according to every interpretation it is open to revision and we need not update our understanding in a "nonstrict" way to pretend it means something it doesn't. If we take the easy path and instead of working for a consensus to amend simply interpret away what we find inconvenient, I fear the document will lose all meaning.

fred said...

John-

I will take my opinion as alawyer and those of election lawyers across the country over some simpleton aide in the Senate any day.

Nate Silver is right, you are wrong.

You can refuse to seat him so you can do an investigation, but that investigation then would need to find something to stop him from being seated. Noone has accused Burris of anything. Unless you know some actual fact that proves taint, you are screwed.

Go back to the Senate, and apologize to Nate when you are proven wrong.

As for the other poster, you are right to attack him. Now crawl back into the slimehole of the Senate and actually do your freakin' job and figure out how the hell you idiots missed the financial meltdown.

John said...

@ Fred:

You seem to agree with me! You say that:

(1) they can refuse to seat him, pending...

(2) an investigation, and

(3) they can block him via majority vote if the investigation turns anything up.

This is exactly what I said, and it's exactly how election/appointment investigations have worked for 200 years.

It is not what Nate said. He seems to think that Powell excludes the possibility of majority vacation of the seat, and that an appointment is not an election. All demonstrably false if anyone bothered to read the historical record.

Again, I'll take 200 years of precedent over someone who doesn't know an appointment is an election under Article I.

And at least Senate counsels know how the filibuster works, unlike the geniuses on these blogs.

fred said...

John-

Learn to read. That is exactly consistent with what Nate said. Nate is not talking about a temporary feel good face-saving BS investigation that will find nothing. Nate is talking about your ability to seat him period. He will be seated, and the dems would be very smart to make this thing go away more quickly by just rolling over and allowing the appointment to go through.

Reid completely screwed up when he made sweping statements about not accepting ANY appointed senator from Blago. Burris is exactly the kind of untainted appointee you SHOULD seat.

Wow, you know how to filibuster. Congrats. Why not go get some legislation passed that actually helps the country, and not just your power base in the Senate.

Kennyb said...

fred, I'm a lawyer too, I was a successful plaintiff in a voting rights case in SCOTUS and I actually bothered to READ Powell v. McCormack today. I agree with John, although I admit that it is not an open and shut case. This is a question about the propriety of an appointment/election that is fully within the rights of the US Senate to resolve. Powell was elected to the Senate and no one was contesting the propriety of his election. Here, the contest will be of the appointment itself, not the qualifications of the person who was appointed. The main point, though, is this: Powell's case did not reach a decision until after he had won re-election to the Senate. Burris's case would not reach a conclusion until well after any special election is held for that seat, and there will NOT be an injunction granted in the meantime. That's just silly talk. Injunctions are an extraordinary remedy to be used only in cases of irreparable harm.

Kennyb said...

And it is irrelevant whether Burris is a good choice or not. He was appointed by Blague. That is enough to taint the selection, and any Democrat that cannot see that is as tone deaf as Chip Saltsman.

rgvinet said...

Responding to Fred.
As someone said, how would it look if the Senate Dems now said: "well, we did promise that we shouldn't seat ANYONE Blago appointed, but since he appointed someone acceptable, we're going to take it all back and just roll over instead.

Hopefully the federal court would decline to become involved in a "political question" if Reid and Co. just simply refuse to seat him.

But I think the best bet may be the Sec State of Ill. refusing to certify the appointment.

Surely even in Illinois, there must be a code of ethics that would require that Blago should recuse himself in a case where he is under indictment for crimes in connection with filling the very seat that is the subject of the appointment here. He has to be conflicted out in this case.

The secretary of state is arguably on reasonably firm ground in refusing to honor the appointment on ethical/conflict of interest grounds.

At the very least, he can probably require an Illinois court to order him to certify the appointment, and let the judiciary take the responsibility.

Tks rich
ps I'm a lawyer too. r

Kennyb said...

Ben Smith's blog has a post from Reid's spokesman, Jim Manley, setting forth John and my points:

In response to those who are asking how this is different from Powell v. McCormack, in which supreme court said House could not refuse to seat a member based on his alleged corruption and said only qualifications to be considered are those listed in the Constitution:

[W]e are not making a judgment about qualifications of appointee, but about whether appointment itself is tainted by fraud, which we believe we are entitled to do under Art. 1 s. 5.

This is like judging the integrity of an election, free from fraud or corruption. It's the process that led to the [appointment], not the appointee's fitness.

fred said...

Kennyb-

I have read it to and think you are wrong (as do many other lawyers). It does depend on how broadly you apply the holding, and yes it is possible that it could be narrowly applied, but I don't think it will be. The case says the elections and appointments are the states, and not the Senate's. I also note you bring up nothing that would show the Burris appointment is tainted. If he has appointed Jackson you might have a factual basis for your argument - he didn't. I am also from IL and think there is no there there, and any investigation will leave the senate with egg on it face.

I also note that Pat Fitzgerald is not going to want to give away his fed court case for a two year senator.

So, your plan is to delay the appointment until you can get a special election that the dems might lose? What do you do when your vaunted investigation finds nothing, and Burris must be seated?

fred said...

Burris is exactly the kind of guy the dems need to make this go away.

Maybe the best thing they can do is to get Burris to be seated after pledging to be a two year appointee and just keep the seat warm until there is an election.

Why the hell aren't the dems trying to make this into a positive and get the episode behind them and off the front pages?

techne said...

Given the Supreme Court's deference to the executive:

If the honorable sovereign body of the Senate refuses to seat a member, for whatever reason, that trumps all.

Kennyb said...

You are completely missing the point, Fred. If the Senate has the balls to conclude that the appointment PROCESS is tainted then no one can overturn that decision. The report can say that the integrity of the appointment process has been undermined. If 50 Senators vote to keep the seat vacant, there is ZIP SCOTUS can or will do about it, as it is a political question.

yiannis said...

I don't really understand what the fuss is about. As Nate wrote Reid will only need to appear to be opposing this then say he has no constitutional power and let the man stay until 2010.

Obama, Daley will then support their own canidate and have fair election

fred said...

An interpretation of Powell that agrees with me:
http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/12/can_the_senate.html

More agreement with Nate and myself:
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/12/30/what-must-the-senate-do-to-keep-blagos-appointment-out/

More election law experts saying it not perfectly clear, but ...
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6550262&page=1


unless something fishy is found between Burris and Blago (not the general taint of Blago's process) I think you have a loser on your hands Kennyb.

Eric said...

There are two ways this plays out. The Senate seats Burris with no controversy and the Senate Dems take a little heat in the short run for going back on their pledge. Then in a couple of months everyone has forgotten about it as the Senate will have moved on and taken up much more important issues. In the meantime, the Democrats have filled an open seat with a guarnateed vote in their favor on most, if not all, issues.

OR

The Senate Dems try to fight it and turn it into a political spectical that drags on for months, and only plays into the public perception that the Democratic majority is more concerned with playing political games than in fixing the dire problems our country faces. And, assuming they are successful in preventing him from being seated (and it is debatable whether or not they will be) then they have to face a special election where the possiblity exists (even if it is only a remote possiblity) that the Republicans might pick up a seat.

rgvinet said...
This post has been removed by the author.
rgvinet said...

BTW, Powell was a Congressman from New york and McCormack was the Speaker of the House. rich

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

The White refusal to certify is almost certainly a non-starter. First of all, the statute in question makes clear the Gov. has sole power of appointment. The only link to the Sec State is that the gov has to provide a certificate of appointment, and the SecState's duties include that he/she "shall" countersign such certificates. The "shall" language and the sole power clause makes it pretty clear the certificate is at most a ministerial act that White can't, legally, choose to refuse as long as Blago is governor. If White does, it won't stop anything.

What bothers me about Burris isn't his qualifications, but his willingness, even eagerness, to break ranks with every Dem leader in the state and nation and keep actively pursuing this appointment. In fact, he apparently only became a serious contender AFTER Blago got arrested. He ramped up his efforts, for no other clear reason than he knew he had no chance in an election or with anyone else making the appointment. That's such a seemingly selfish act that it will taint anything Burris tries to do unless he votes a straight party line 100% of the time.

Then again, since his two biggest defenders right now are Blago and Bobby Rush, maybe Burris is nuts, too.

fred said...

Kennyb-

I disagree. It is a political question, but it crosses the line into exactly the type of constitutional question they have to address.

I also disagree with you on your point about the general taint of the processs being sufficient to stop the appointment. It would have to be specific taint of Burris' appointment.

Finally, I think that Fitzgerald's case on the selling of the seat is pretty weak. He will bring Blago down, but it will be on other points of corruption, not the Senate seat. He might, MIGHT get a conspriacy to sell the seat together, but I think even that is doubtful.

fred said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Kennyb said...

I get paid the big bucks to make winners out of losers, fred, so I'm happy to hear it. Regardless, if this goes to court and Reid decides he'd rather leave the seat empty and fight, every lawyer in America will agree that we will not get a SCOTUS decision about it until after the 2010 special election in Chicago.

fred said...

Eric-

EXACTLY! Reid needs to focus on making this go away quickly. The best way to do that, IMO, is to get the Senate to do a prefunctory investigation, show that they are not going to get bit on the back end when Fitzgerald goes to court (namely Burris himself is clean) and then seat Burris with a pledge not to run in 2010.

The real weird thought I have? This might be a seat Patrick Fitzgerald himself runs for in 2010. Now that would be a strange set of events. Wanna get really messy? Did Fitzgerald stop a Blago appointment to make his path to the seat easier?

fred said...

I get paid the big bucks to make sure my Fortune 500 doesn't pay you overly aggressive outside counsel the big bucks on loser cases because you refuse to properly evaluate the law at the start.

Kennyb said...

fred, I continue to wonder about the conspiracy case, too. Where is the overt act? It's not a crime to talk about how you'd really like to rob a bank with your buddies if you don't anything to put your ideas into action.

fred said...

kennyb-

I am sure we can drag this out. How the hell would that help Reid? It would keep this distraction in the news, make the dems look bad, and give them one less vote in the Senate.

The pragmatic approach is to seat him with a pledge to be a two year Senator.

fred said...

I think we actually agree on every point kennyb, it is just a matter of how broadly you apply the holding in Powell.

Have a good night, thanks for the convo.

Kennyb said...

Again, Fred, it does not matter if I win the case if the goal is to keep it tied up in the courts for 2 years. A good lawyer can make sure the client's goals are met without necessarily winning the case. No general counsel to a Fortune 500 company needs to be reminded of THAT fact!

And along those lines, no one has answered my question from this afternoon. Will Burris have the resources to litigate this out? Although given the pictures I've seen of his already completed tombstone, I guess the answer is yes.

fred said...

Rachel Maddow has Burris live in two minutes on MSNBC.

Kennyb said...

Yes, fred, it may be in Reid's interests not to fight it, but it's a close call. The appearance of impropriety in this appointment and taint of corruption that surrounds Blague smell very bad.

fred said...

kennyb-

Burris does not have deep pockets.

I agree again that we can drag this out, I just don't see how that really helps.

Burris is a very mellow guy, he will be low key, two year guy if they approach him correctly.

fred said...

kennyb-

I am not really bothered by the appearance of taint, but I lived in IL a long time.

KB said...

Burris is 71 years old. In 2010 the seat is up for election. Why fight over Burris? I know Reid said he would but Burris seems to be clean and he won't run for re-election in 2010 (and if he did he would lose). This now allows the Democrats and Rep. Kirk to fight this out like they should be allowed to. I think this is a win-win. The Dems get a caretaker and then they get a Senator who had to earn their seat.

green libertarian said...

How much of climber is AG White? Maybe he was in line for the Senate appt. by the Lt. Gov. after Blago got kicked to the curb.

If White has designs on the seat, maybe he should just "make an arrangement" with Burris for he, Burris to endorse White in the 2010 primary, and the STFU about this appt.

Absent any startling revelations about Burris, particular in regard to pay for play or anything untoward with Blago, he should take the seat, caretaker of course.

Kennyb said...

KB, it's because Blague appointed him. That is the only reason. If Blague resigned and Quinn appointed Burris it would not be an issue. And that is a good enough reason for me.

How can the Senate Democrats welcome anyone who was appointed by a man who planned to sell that same appointment to the highest bidder just a few weeks ago? How is it that people do not see the problem with that?!

fred said...

White is not a climber and has said he has no interest in the seat.

White is getting old to, I bet the SoS spot is his last political position.

White and Burris have also been in the same circles for decades, they likely know and like each other. They both have reputations as nice guys.

fred said...

I am watching Chuck Todd and another possibility comes to mind.

Get Pat Quinn (Lt. Gov who would make the appointment if Blago stepped down,was fired) to say he would appoint Burris to, that removes this perceived taint and then we go forward to 2010.

Todd says Reid wants to delay the seating, as discussed above I think that is a really bad move in the chess game of politics.

Zepp said...

The Senate can expel Burris (once seated) for any reason at all, provided they get a 2/3rds vote, which is unlike. Simply refusing him admission, as you note, is constitutionally dodgy, and courts were divided on it when The House tried that approach with Adam Clayton Powell some 35 years ago.

However, it's almost certainly a moot point, as the Illinois Secretary of State has to certify any appointment the governor makes, and has already stated that she will not do so in this case.

Michael (mbw) said...

I may agree with Fred. Just seating him quietly may be the least harmful option. It's crucial, however, that we get somebody without a close connection to Blago (and I'm not saying that Burris had one, before today) for 2010.
Also, the Burris MSNBC interview sounded very lame, a reminder that even in IL we have stronger smarter politicians than him who are, like him, not crooks. Obama's short-list was pretty good.

There are two big problems now with Burris, besides the public perception of association with Blago. He really did jump outside a decent process for personal advancement at the expense of the party, which doesn't make him corrupt but does make his judgment suspect. He has also back-tracked on the commitment not to run in 2010, which means we'll be in for a bruising, maybe fatal primary.

Kennyb said...

Blague can step down and then Quinn can actually appoint Burris. THAT would work, but Blague will never do it. (Let's hope I'm wrong again!)

Kennyb said...

Why are we so sure there would not be 67 votes to expel Burris? Sounds like the Republicans in Illinois are totally against the appointment, and that makes it harder for Senate Republicans not to vote to expel.

And if Reid can assure waffling dems that Quinn will re-appoint Burris...now THAT would be a real soap-opera. Expel Burris as a Blague appointee and then accept him as a Quinn appointee, after Balgue is impeached.

fred said...

The one thing we can be sure of, I think, is that Blago will not step down. If for no other reason,he has no money and this is his only income!

GayIthacan said...

Nate:

Reid does not have to BLOCK it. All he needs to do is DELAY it - and the situation will resolve itself. Blago will be impeached and thrown out, meaning his appointment is null and void. (This was made clear by Rachel Maddow's Constitutional lawyer guest tonight. And there is precedent for it.)

A delay of a few months is all that is needed. Then Blago is gone, his replacement appoints someone new, the Senate seats him - and all this foolishness is long forgotten by Easter.

fred said...

Gaylthacan-

Maybe that will play well in DC, I really don't think it will play well in IL. Just get Quinn to also endorse Burris and lets move on.

Opus 132 said...

" Expel Burris as a Blague appointee and then accept him as a Quinn appointee, after Balgue is impeached."

Could anything make the Democrats look more stupid than this?

GayIthacan said...

fred:

'Not play well in Illinois?"""

Don;t make me laugh.

Burris has been a 3-time LOSER in Illinois - and that was BEFORE an ethically tainted governor tapped him after being unable to sell the seat elsewhere.

The people of Illinois obviously could NOT CARE LESS about this stand-in.

And I think Barack knows a little about Illinois and its population. He would seem to agree with the rest of us.

Opus 132 said...

To go to a topic whose imminence makes it more important than the Burris/White?Reid computer game being played here,did anything of significance happen in Minnesota today?

STepper said...
This post has been removed by the author.
STepper said...

I'm a lawyer, too. HLS '71. I agree with John. The Adam Clayton Powell case deals with qualifications, not elections. Powell was elected by his constituents but the House refused to seat him, saying he was not qualified.

Assuming the Powell case were controlling, I doubt the Supreme Court would even hear a claim from Burris. This Supreme Court does not much like the Warren Court (although I do), and I suspect the Court would pass on the case. (I think the current Court would find Powell was wrongly decided, by the way. And I think they would have a point.)

Having said all that, Burris looks like a pretty good choice, but I think he is in a law firm that has some relationship with Blago, and that's not helpful. I predict he will not be seated, although I do think he is "qualified" and would have been a good choice has Blago not decided to see how much he could get for the seat.

Opus 132 said...

Anything,ANYTHING (be it White's refusal to certify,Reid's non-acceptance,etc.),that extends this debacle for a single day should be anathema to Democrats.

Get Burris in there by Jan.6 and let the Republicans criticize and whine in utter futility.To say this story will have legs after Jan.29 is feeding the (political) trolls.And we believe in DFTT.


wv:evili How Norm Coleman conducts his recount fight.

Opus 132 said...

@ STepper (and any other lawyers here)


Off topic,but I'd like to ask the following:


The infamous Proposition Eight in California contains a provision that invalidates all same-sex marriages that took place during the months they were legal.

Isn't that provision unconstitutional under the "ex post facto" prohibition?

phil said...

How about 4) stall until Blagojevich gets impeached and seat an appointment made by the new governor?

Not immune from court challenge, but it could be a political question issue.

phil said...

Isn't that provision unconstitutional under the "ex post facto" prohibition?

It's not a criminal statute, so the ex post facto clause doesn't apply.

Opus 132 said...

Jan.29 should be Jan.20.

STepper said...

Opus - Any attempt to invalidate perfectly legal marriages in Prop. 8 will be struck down. While I haven't closely read Prop. 8 -- I just know that I was against it as a divisive and angry piece of legislation -- I believe it doesn't deal with legal marriages (in this case same sex marriages) entered into before its enactment by the people of California. I think the Supreme Court's ruling invalidating a prior statutory provision came while signatures were being circulated for Prop. 8 to appear on the ballot. So, I don't think Prop. 8 specifically seeks to invalidate legal marriages or deals with that situation.

If Prop. 8 did seek to invalidate legal marriages, the ex post facto clause of the US Constitution wouldn't be implicated (nor would the contract clause since marriages are not considered, strangely enough, "contracts"). The ex post facto clause deals generally with making and punishing conduct as criminal behavior after the conduct has occurred. It deals almost (but not quite) exclusively with criminal behavior.

AG Jerry Brown in California (the former Governor) originally pledged to defend Prop. 8 but when he filed his brief he came out on the other side. But his brief argues forcefully for the proposition that Prop. 8 wasn't a "revision" to the state constitution (which would require the Legislature to initate changes in the constitution), but merely an "amendment." That's the best ground to knock down Prop. 8. Rather, Brown's brief argues an abstract legal point (too technical to go into here), which appears to be an attempt by Brown to have it both ways. He was afraid to assert the "revision" position because it would call so many other initiatives into question.

PeixeGato said...

"" Expel Burris as a Blague appointee and then accept him as a Quinn appointee, after Balgue is impeached."

Could anything make the Democrats look more stupid than this?"


Ummmm, NO!

Opus 132 said...

Thanks,Phil and STepper.

Redshift said...

Too many damned lawyers around here... :-P

DCM in FL said...

what makes some posters think that an impeachment process for Blago would only take a few months ???

it has already been 3 weeks since he was arrested & no further developments

an impeachment would probably need to wait until he was convicted at a minimum, and possibly even exhausted his appeals [ala Stevens]

so you are talking a year or maybe Blago even serves out his term under this cloud [or cops a plea & pulls a Spitzer]

no one seems to consider what precedent this would potentially establish IF the Senate refuses to seat a legally appointed person such as Buriss

it would conceivably open a pandoras box for ANY future appointment [including NY & DE], especially in a hyper-partisan atmosphere where perhaps the senate is in a virtual tie [think 2006] or even unpopular elections IF some 'taint' is presumed or perhaps any frivolous excuse if the senate sets the precedent that they really do not need a good/valid reason to seat someone who is qualified...

personally, I wish they would refuse to seat a scum-sucker like ol' Saxby...

and how about when Frank Murkowski appointed his DAUGHTER to the senate from AK a few years ago - shouldn't nepotism have been sufficient grounds to refuse to seat Lisa using similar logic ???

green libertarian said...

I can't make a lick o sense out of what happened in my beloved home state of Minnesota today...

Seems like a tit-for-tat challenge was going on, in SOME places, but not all...

/shudder

And ELECTION JUDGE'S AE was thrown out today due to Coleman's efforts. And she says she VOTED FOR COLEMAN!

It's like the Twilight Zone...

DULUTH - Shirley Graham was astonished to learn that a lawyer from Norm Coleman's campaign on Tuesday blocked her absentee ballot from being added to the U.S. Senate recount.

"I'm an election judge," said Graham, of Duluth. "I expected to be the last person whose ballot wouldn't be counted."
...
"I want to see my ballot," said Graham, who added that she'd consider going to court, if she must, to get her vote counted.

A final irony: She voted for Coleman.

green libertarian said...

Link to story, sorry about that:

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/36907934.html?elr=KArks8c7PaP3E77K_3c::D3aDhUxWoW_oD:EaDUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiU

Cugel said...
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Cugel said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Cugel said...

"Kennyb said...

fred, I continue to wonder about the conspiracy case, too. Where is the overt act? It's not a crime to talk about how you'd really like to rob a bank with your buddies if you don't anything to put your ideas into action."


Kenny B, if you've ever tried a felony conspiracy case in Federal court, you know that the overt act doesn't have to be that much! I have vivid memories of how small that can be and how difficult it is for your client to dissociate himself from the conspiracy once involved!

As long as the prosecutor could make out that Blaggo WAS involved in a felony conspiracy to sell the Senate seat, and then could show discussions between Burris and Blaggo, that's it.

But, assuming that Burris is "clean" it's still not going to help him in the long-run.

The media is going to spend MONTHS and MONTHS, literally hundreds of hours discussing what Blaggo might have been promised, what Burris might have said, whether conversations occurred, whether witnesses should be subpoenaed.

Republicans are rubbing their hands with glee over this and are NOT going to let it just go away. The are already accusing Burris of corruption.

Do you remember White Water? Ken Starr? In the end all the smoke and there was NO fire. But, that didn't stop the media from going on and on about it.

And this will be the same. Have you watched the coverage so far? The feeding frenzy of speculation is just beginning!

This is only going to escalate. If Burris thinks he can tough it out he's kidding himself.

Within the next 2 months at least 80% of the American people will become convinced Burris bought his seat in some shady underhanded secret deal -- whether it's true or not.

This is a deal that just stinks to high-heaven and there's NO WAY it's going to have a happy ending for Burris, whether he wins his court cases or not!

Every single stone in his entire life is going to be examined with a microscope and all dirt will be exposed. If he hired an illegal immigrant as a nanny 10 years ago it will come out.

If he did anything funny on his taxes that he thought was legal, it will be discussed endlessly on Fox News.

Just watch and see the media circus! No way Burris can withstand the storm indefinitely.

Bob X said...

@Opus: "Could anything make the Democrats look stupider than this?"
Sure! I don't know what, but I bet we'll find out soon enough!

@STepper: you are mistaken about Prop 8. It simply says that same-sex marriages are not valid in California, period. It doesn't distinguish between marriages made inside California or outside California, last summer or ten years from now: they're all invalid and that's that. I agree the court will probably refuse to invalidate the existing marriages, but on grounds of equity rather than the language of the proposition.

JRoyale said...

I think Reid should just take a page out of the the GOP play. If SCOTUS says "Seat him", Reid should just say "No"... and then ask SCOTUS where they have the authority to make such a ruling?. Senatorial privilege, he can call it. I mean, it isn't like Marbury v. Madison is part of the Constitution and even it was... so what, the Constitution is quaint.

Ok, so that's all tongue and cheek, but I really think it's time Congress stopped being the pussy branch. We all know that Reid is just going to figure out way to embarrass the Democratic caucus as much as possible and then surrender at the worst possible time.

STepper said...

@Cugel

I have tried conspiracy cases in federal court. What do you think the "overt act" was? I know that Blago talked big about selling the seat, but did he or anyone on his behalf solicit the payoff? I read the complaint and the affidavit accompanying it, but I didn't see any overt act relating to the sale of BHO's seat.

I wrote a while ago that I thought Blago was arrested "too early" to make a case against him on this ground, and I was thus puzzled when the AUSA was so difficult in cooperating with the Illinois lower house in its impeachment investigation. Convicting Blago of crimes is a worthwhile endeavor. Getting him out of the Illinois state house is just as worthy.

STepper said...

@BobX - I don't believe I wrote what you think I wrote. I do not believe Prop. 8 seeks to invalidate legal marriages in California. If it says the only marriages that are lawful are between a man and a woman, where is the express language saying prior lawful marriages between same sex couples are now void?

You may want to read what is posted carefully before you tell someone he's wrong.

green libertarian said...

where is the express language saying prior lawful marriages between same sex couples are now void?
-STepper

There isn't any. But that hasn't stopped Kenneth Starr and the other TaliBaptist/Funda-Nazis to file briefs with the CA Supremes to the contrary, seeking to invalidate such.

Opus 132 said...

@ STepper

here is the full text of Proposition 8:

"This initiative measure expressly amends the California Constitution by adding a section thereto; therefore, new provisions proposed to be added are printed in italic type to indicate that they are new.

SECTION 1. Title This measure shall be known and may be cited as the "California Marriage Protection Act."

SECTION 2. Section 7.5 is added to Article I of the California Constitution, to read:

SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

It seems to me that SEC.7.5 (to be added to the California Constitution) invalidates the previous legal California same-sex marriages.(At least in California.I suppose they may still be valid in Massachusetts and Connecticut.)

Soccer Mum said...

Off topic I know but I noticed that Stepper asked a question on a previous thread about Australian home loans. What with the time differrence I didn't read it until some hours later.

We have home equity loans, where you have your house valued by the bank and can borrow such that the loan goes to 80% of the home's value for cars, holidays etc. I have had one of these but not ever again as when I sold the house I had to pay out the car loan too which was not what I wanted.

We also have reverse mortgages which is where people with 100% equity in their homes can draw back up to 20% and make no repayments - the interest compounds and the bank gets its money back when you die. So there are criteria such as age, income, postcode etc that have to be met to get these.

We will suffer this year but not as much as the USA as prudential regulation is stronger here and our Federal Reserve has been more conservative in regulating interest rates than Greenspan was.

Opus 132 said...

SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.

Opus 132 said...

SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.

This seems to be ex post facto and covers all same sex marriages regardless of when or where they occurred.,no?

Neil said...

Even lacking constitutional authority, it would be idiocy not to attempt to exclude Burris. In terms of electoral politics, people understand that something was forced by the court (they'll rail about "activist judges" and whatnot, but they would not blame the congressional democrats, which is what's important here). But they won't understand that the vote to seat Burris was based solely on whether he met the basic legal criteria. That's what will hurt in attack ads in 2010.

Opus 132 said...

Political paranoia!


wv; brissi Has elements of the Jewish circumcision ceremony.

S said...

personally, i think the term "elections" of senator can be more broadly interpreted to include a governor's appointment... election as choice, that is.

melissa said...

@Brian

Am I right in assuming that you are a conservative who wants to have judges that interpret the constitution literally and often rant against the liberal activist judges? Anyways, I have been hearing this kind of stuff ever since brown vs. broad of education of Topeka. Let’s just pretend to have it your way and the judges interpret the constitution literally.

Since there is nothing in the constitution that talk about a state decision to promote segregation be it de facto or de juries, and the activist judges did not liberally interpret the 14th amendment, than that means that Kansas could have continue their segregation policy for decades just because the word school was not literally written into the constitution. Now, tell me that you would have supported segregation sponsor by the state because the constitution did not bestow the power to the federal government to intervene in their state policies.

Now, what about interracial marriages, such as loving vs. Virginia? Should the SC voted in favor of the state of Virginia instead of the Loving, because there was nothing written literally into the constitution about interracial marriages? Should the Lovings be held as criminals under Virginia state law for interracially marrying because the constitution never literally wrote the word marriage into it and marriage is more of a state issue than a federal one? Should the federal government be powerless from intervening in southern states that criminalized interracial marriages based on a literal interpretation of the constitution?

Now in the case of Reynolds vs. USA, Reynolds argue that it was his first amendment right to practice polygamy since it must had fall under freedom of religion. The judges disagree with him and use Thomas Jefferson’s letters to said that the federal government can intervene in actions committed by an individual regardless of their religious beliefs if it harmful to society. If a judge were to literally interpret the constitution, which said in the first amendment that congress cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion, than Mormons can practice polygamy, Indians can burn themselves among their husband burn body, and cults can promote human sacrifices. After all, in the literal sense, they fall under the free exercise of religion and Thomas Jefferson’s letters is relevant to the case.

And since we are on the subject of literal interpretation, what about the bible? In the bible, it said that Joshua made the sun stood still in the sky. So according to a literalist, if the sun did stand still in the sky, than that must mean that the sun moves around the earth. Now, we all know that the sun does not move at all but it is the earth that moves around the sun. If the sun is the center of the solar system and if the earth moves around it, then the earth should force all those that inherited it to go spinning at 600 miles an hour. That did not happen. So this must means that the bible should not be read as a literal document just as the constitution cannot always be read in a far right wing literal sense.

melissa said...

@Opus

Based on your choice of comments, should I conclude that you disagree with the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Virginia state law in regards to interracial marriages? After all, the state and many southern states had passed laws that criminalized interracial marriages.

I really don’t think that southern states would had passed a law legalizing interracial marriages but if an activist judge interpret one of the southern state’s interracial marriage law as unconstitutional and couples interracially married but the people of that southern state successfully passed an amendment criminalizing interracial marriage afterward, should all interracial couples go to jail?

Dave Harris said...

In other news, Blague's General Counsel has resigned:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/blagojevich/1355168,blagojevich-general-counsel-resign-123008.article

Opus 132 said...

@ melissa

No,you have it all wrong.

I am in favor of same-sex marriage and against everything in Calafornia's Proposition Eight.Of course I agree with the Loving decision.(Is there anybody except the most rabid racists who doesn't.)

So you know me,,I am a straight male ultra-liberal atheist.

Welcome.

Opus 132 said...

@ melissa

I really don’t think that southern states would had passed a law legalizing interracial marriages but if an activist judge interpret one of the southern state’s interracial marriage law as unconstitutional and couples interracially married but the people of that southern state successfully passed an amendment criminalizing interracial marriage afterward, should all interracial couples go to jail?

No.It couldn't happen because it would be unconstitutional under the "ex post facto" provision of the U.S. Constitution.This provision bans retroactive criminal laws.

NotJamesMadison said...

Deciding whether the House had the power to exclude Adam Clayton Powell by a simple majority vote Chief Justice Warren wrote “Further, analysis of the ‘textual commitment’ under Art. I, 5 has demonstrated that in judging the qualifications of its members Congress is limited to the standing qualifications prescribed in the Constitution.” (Powell v. McCormack, 395 US 486,550; available at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=395&invol=486) The standing qualifications are age, citizenship, and residency. The Court voted 7-1 on this case. Only Justice Stewart dissented, and that was on the grounds that the case had been made moot by the expiration of the 90th Congress which had excluded Powell.

Burriss’s appointment is certainly tarnished by the Blagojevich mess. However, the appointment conforms to Illinois law and the 17th amendment vacancy clause which does not give the Illinois Secretary of State the power to veto the appointment. Burris, like Powell, meets all the standing qualifications. There are no grounds to exclude Burriss.

No one had demonstrated that Burriss himself has broken any laws. How much would the ranks of Congress be thinned if it excluded every member chosen in an election tainted by someone else’s fraud or graft? If Burriss is legally at fault, that is the subject of a trial-like expulsion process after Burriss is seated. In a footnote to Powell CJ Warren noted “A further distinction between expulsion and exclusion inheres in the fact that a member whose expulsion is contemplated may as a matter of right address the House and participate fully in debate while a member-elect apparently does not have a similar right.” (Senate Rule 23 denies Burriss a right to appear on the Senate floor until he is sworn in.)

Clearly, the people of Illinois are the surest losers in this mess. The Democrats in the state legislature should be ashamed of themselves for not having passed a bill calling for a quick special election out of concern that a Republican might capture the seat. All they are doing is writing a scenario for a Republican to win the seat in 2010.

just_looking said...

The affect of Proposition 8 on exisiting marriages will be decided by the California Supreme court in the same case that it judges the constitutionality of Proposition 8.

Brown's brief argues that Proposition 8 is an amendment (not a revision), but that an amendment which abrogates fundamental rights is unconstitutional. That's weird because how can an amendment itself be unconstitutional based on its content (as opposed to the process used to enact it)?

Brown maybe on shaky ground as to his duties when he filed the brief against Proposition 8. I thought he was supposed to argue for it unless he is unable to find any reasonable argument in support of it. Certainly, it is reasonable that an amendment cannot be found constituional based on its content.

just_looking said...

At first I thought Nate was correct. But having read the thread, there is a good argument that the Senate can judge the appointment in the same manner it judges an election. However, is the Senate required to make a factual case that the appointment was illegally obtained? Is it enough to argue that Blago is a bad guy?

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

For my fellow members of the bar,

I discovered early in my career that the overt act doesn't need to be a whole lot in most conspiracy settings. In the intervening years, the push for early (some would say premature) prosecutions of potential terrorists has weakened it further - it really doesn't have to be much of anything. Talk about blowing something up, and take a picture of a logical target to be blown up - that's been enough for juries and judges in the last few years.

Here, the complaint lays out Blago and Harris (among other things) speculating that the SEIU would be a good conduit for getting a trade off for appointing Obama. Blago delusionally also thought appointing Jarrett would be worth a Cabinet post (HHS, which if you knew Illinois record on Medicaid and Medicare would make you laugh). At the very least, we have independent confirmation from Jarrett that SEIU's president was approached by a Blago rep about sounding out her interest, and the idea that Blago thought he was in line for a cabinet post. The fact Jarrett didn't want the appointment and both Jarrett and the SEIU rep thought the HHS idea was laughable doesn't change the fact Blago/Harris approaching the SEIU rep was in furtherance of their (delusional) plan. The overt act doesn't have to be improper on its own, after all.

John said...

I think I'm with just_looking. The other John who works for the Senate and others above convince me that the Senate can exclude him on the grounds that his appointment is an "election" and that they have the right to judge that.

That being said, the rules committee would need to actually find some evidence of corruption in Burris's appointment to actually vacate the seat, I think. But that's a political judgment, not a legal one.

Brian said...

Melissa-

"Let’s just pretend to have it your way and the judges interpret the constitution literally."

What I said was "It is possible to believe that a document really does mean something constant, taking context into account, and that only one interpretation is correct and that past interpretations may have been wrong without believing in a literal interpretation." I spent the first two paragraphs of my post trying to say I don't read the constitution (or the bible) literally and that criticisms such as your entire last paragraph don't apply to my argument. Instead, I see them as having real meaning from when they were made, and not as being hollow shells to use when we want the benefit of authority and tradition but still feel like doing things our modern way.

I am too young and do not remember or know all of the specifics of the cases you cited. But, in general, my argument is that it takes more than a good, just policy outcome to make a good ruling. If what you said is true about Reynolds vs. USA, then the first amendment, from context, really, and always, meant and will mean polygamy is not protected as being part of free exercise of religion. It will take a regime of strict interpretation to protect that if the ruling segment of society changes its mind on polygamy's worth.

I personally believe that polygamy ought to be banned because of its effects on women and the founders did not protect it. But if the constitution said "polygamy shall be protected" I would have no other recourse then telling my congressman to amend the constitution, and would not presume to pressure a judge into ruling a constitutional clause away. If people did that, and succeeded, then the constitution would cease to regulate the government.

On Brown v. Board, I am not hung up on the constitution's use of the word school or not. Many areas are open to interpretation, (though not all). The policy outcome of segregated schools is terrible, but I don't know enough to say if it was illegal. It seems to me that it defies the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. Same with Loving v. Virginia. But regardless, in this country education for blacks is still bad despite the ruling. It's pretty bad for everyone in public school actually. That doesn't make the current situation automatically unconstitutional. It certainly leaves the victory for justice in Brown sadly hollow. Perhaps the courts are not the most effective tool to use to change society when they are perceived as being biased (whether they are or not).

If you further popularize the idea that whatever you can get away with due to your high placed judicial position is ipso facto constitutional, that ideology will be used against you and even spread to non judicial branches. (Though I hear the pay is not very good for a prophet who predicts the past, I thought I'd throw that in. It applies to the future, too.)

Mighty Mouse said...

DCM in FL said...
what makes some posters think that an impeachment process for Blago would only take a few months ???

The fact that the impeachment and trial of Bill Clinton took a combined total of 61 days. The Illinois House started impeachment proceedings on Dec. 15. Gov. Eff-word will be gone around the middle of February, hopefully by the 12th, Lincoln's birthday.

bigtroubleinlittlechina said...
This post has been removed by the author.
DCM in FL said...

MIGHTY MOUSE

LOL - what are the grounds for actually impeaching Blago at this time ???

that he is an embarrassment ?

that he has been 'accused' of talking like a drunken sailor about maybe committing a crime at some point in the future ?

do not forget, he has not even been indicted YET - let alone found guilty of any crime by a judge or jury so he must be given the presumption of 'innocence' no matter how crass or trivial that might seem

Fitz seems not to be in any rush to indict Blago - in fact, didn't he just get a 90 day extention to even file an indictment ?

then comes a long pre-trial period, then a lengthy trial unless he plea bargains...

what, we could easily be talking 1-2 YEARS before Blago has enough of a legal record to actually justify a proven impeachable offense [as opposed to an accusation]

sorry, but once again, Ted Stevens IS still a SENATOR for a few more days - and he is a CONVICTED felon with multiple counts of graft while in OFFICE & there was never any move to even try to remove him because he claimed he was entitled to his full appeal process

Blago, even if found guilty of some charge [not likely the offer to sell the senate seat - but perhaps other charges], might also be entitled to his appeal or his term might end first since it is looking less likely that he will step down anytime soon and why should he give up his only leverage [even though Spitzer did]

IL may want to impeach him, but legal basis for it at this moment is tenuous at best

the Clinton impeachment process took much, much longer than you claim if you start the clock from when it was proposed & ran it until the actual senate vote that failed to confirm the house articles of impeachment

besides, that might be why Blago made the Burris appointment - he fulfilled his duty as the chief executive & did not fail to do his job as required [in fact, that might have been an impeachable offense for Blago - if he neglected his duties as governor & failed to make the required nomination]. Perhaps that was a 'trap' that the IL AG & legislature was trying to pin Blago into ???

Blago can drag out this entire affair pretty much as long as he wants to dare the US attorney to pursue him [will Fitzgerald even remain after Obama is POTUS ?]

besides, if it looks like Fitz has political aspirations [which the blogs are saying he does] then this whole affair might smack of opportunism by Fitz to try to game the IL political system for his own personal advantage & maybe even an 'open' senate seat as the GOPer candidate...

watch, that rumor has started growing online already, and IF indicted you can bet that Blago's legal team will smear Fitz with it which could stink it allup & create reasonable doubt or justify an entrapment defense...

fred said...

DCM-

The IL Congress can impeach before any court finding, or even trial. They do have to base it on something though, and will need their own fact finding in order to do that.

It won't take months, expect a vote in late January or early February.

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zh01 said...

与本级人民政府统计机构统计调查取得的统计数据不一致的, 再次同声传译提请全国人惠州翻译公司。大常委会商务口译审议的统计法修订草案明确规定:深圳翻译公司,国家广州翻译公司统计数据以同声传译设备租赁国家统计局公布的数据为准俄语翻译
政府有关部门统计调查取得的统计数据,与本级人民政府统计机构统计调查取得的统计数据不一致的,县级深圳翻译以上地方深圳同声传译人民政府设立广州翻译公司独立的统计机构翻译公司,,乡、法语翻译
上海翻译公司镇人民政府设置统计工作岗位上海翻译公司
英语翻译 ,配备专职或者兼职同传设备
同声传译统计人员,深圳日语

翻译

同声传译设备租赁。。新疆租车,依法管理统计工作同声传译设备租赁
法语翻译
同声传译同声传译,同声传译设备
珠海翻译公司,实施统计调查。深圳手机号码
同声传译设备
表决器会议设备租赁
广州翻译公司
汕头翻译公司
无线导览
会议设备租赁统计人员应当具备与其从事的统计工作相适应的专业知识和业务能力。

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