12.30.2008

On The Importance of the Middle Class: Lessons of the Housing Bust

Let's take a look at at a chart:



This is the proportion of various types of assets held -- everything from property to cash to stocks -- as a percentage of total assets for Americans in various income categories. The data comes from the Federal Reserve Board's 2004 Survey of Consumer Assets, which is probably the best data our government produces on consumer behavior. (Unfortunately, the Survey of Consumer Assets is conducted only once every few years; the next release is scheduled for early next year).

The most obvious trend is that higher a person's income, the less a proportion of their wealth is tied up into their homes. People in the bottom three income quintiles had roughly half their total wealth embedded into their principal residences, and another 8-9 percent in other forms of real estate. By contrast, the top 10 percent of earners had just 21 percent of their assets in their residences, and another 13 percent in other categories of real estate (including second homes).

Where do the wealthy have their money instead? In securities -- including stocks, bonds, and mutual funds -- as well as in businesses. As of 2004, the wealthiest 10 percent owned about 78 percent of all equity in businesses, 75 percent of all equity in individually-held stocks, and 65 percent of mutual funds, but just 34 percent of all equity that Americans held in their primary residences. Homeownership penetrates much deeper down the income pyramid than other types of assets.

We can also look at this in a slightly different way, comparing the various types of assets held to annual income:



Lower-income Americans have nearly four years' worth of annual income tied up into their homes, and middle-income Americans between two-and-a-half and three years' worth, as compared with only about two years' worth for the wealthiest Americans. By contrast, wealth in securities rises dramatically among the richest 10 percent of Americans, not just in absolute terms but also relative to their incomes.

Let's consider a typical individual in the middle income quintile. This person, as of 2004, was making about $43,000 per year before taxes, with takehome pay probably closer to $35,000. She held about $18,000 in stocks, bonds, and mutual funds, most of it likely in her 401K, whereas her home was worth about $123,000.

If this person's securities lost 25 percent of their value, then she has lost the equivalent of 6 or 7 weeks' worth of takehome pay. By contrast, if the price of her home drops by 25 percent, she has lost the equivalent of almost a year's worth of takehome pay -- actually, somewhere between 10 and 11 months. It isn't any surprise then, that for both rational and behavioral reasons, she'll want to cut back on her consumption a little bit when this occurs.

Now, I don't mean to sanctify homeownership to any extent -- I'm a renter myself, and proud of it. But this isn't really an argument about homeownership. Rather, it represents a relatively unique natural experiment about the relationship between wealth and consumption, since we haven't had a truly major, nationwide decline in American housing prices since World War I.

What the experiment suggests is that when the housing market declines, it can trigger a precipitous decline in consumer spending, potentially enough to send the economy into a tailspin. The steepest decline in housing prices came between November 2007 and this March; the NBER, perhaps not coincidentally, now dates the recession back to last December -- long before the Fannie and Freddie takeover or the collapse of Lehman Brothers. When the stock market crashes, by contrast -- particularly in a case like the 1987, when the crash wasn't really tied to broader economic fundamentals -- the effects on consumption have tended to be fairly negligible.

The primary difference between housing wealth and securities wealth is that the latter is concentrated almost exclusively among the wealthy, whereas the former affects persons in all income classifications. One inference we could draw from this, then, is that a robust middle class is indeed the engine of American growth.

If this inference is correct, then a principal goal of our recessionary fiscal policy should be to encourage consumption and improve consumer confidence among the middle class. The two most intriguing ways to do this are probably a reduction or suspension of the payroll tax, and some sort of sales tax holiday in which the federal government would foot the bill for state and local sales taxes for some period of time. By contrast, a reduction in something like the capital gains tax rate, as was proposed by the McCain campaign in October, would seem to be about as orthogonal to our current economic problems as could possibly be.

89 comments

hill.tops said...

For the good of the country, Coleman should concede.

hill.tops said...
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BostonKid said...

Just remeber this as a renter, we're getting complety hosed on all ends. There's no stimulus for us, no tax write offs and guess what, all the foreclosures did was drive up rental demand and raise rents (rich get richer, everyone else gets screwed, all paid for by the taxpayer). Viva la revolution

Laura said...

The most obvious trend is that the wealthier a person is, the less a proportion of their wealth is tied up into their homes.

I think you're replacing the word "income" with the word "wealth" in a way that's not helpful. Your sentence should read, "The most obvious trend is that the higher income a person is, the less a proportion of their wealth is tied up in their homes." Part of this is a difference in the investment patterns of middle- and high-income folks, but part of it is also life stage--elderly, low-income people tend to have lots of housing wealth less financial wealth, particularly if pension wealth isn't included.

Juris said...

@Nate: Typo--it can triggered a precipitous Should be trigger, not triggered.

For your hypothetical $43,000 income earner with a $123,000 home, that home isn't all hers. Her equity in that home is probably a lot less if she has a mortgage -- its size depends on how long she has owned that house and how much its value has appreciated. But let's suppose she still owes $60K on the mortgage, so she really doesn't wholly own $123,000 in housing but only about half of that.

But then she took out a $30,000 home equity loan to buy a new car and to consolidate her credit card debt.

And now let that house lose 20% in value in the next few years, so it's worth just $95 or so. She still owes about $80K to $90K in her first and second mortgages.

In other words, if she sold her house today she would come out essentially "even" after transaction costs (realtor fees, etc.) -- with all of the earnings going to pay off her mortgages. Her net? Zero. The piggy bank is really empty.

That's what happens when you leverage to buy a house, take "profit out of it" to spend on consumer's items, and housing values decline. At least, in this example, her mortgage isn't "upside down" in which she owes more money on it than she can obtain by selling it.

fred said...

Great post.

The higher income folks also spend less in the real economy as a percentage of income. A post on that would put the final nail in the coffin of trickle down.

fred said...

Juris-

Good point, and many homeowners took loans to 100% equity (which is insane) and any drop in the market has put them underwater.

Nate Silver said...

Juris,

The way this survey was conducted, the figures should represent her share of her home equity only.

hill.tops said...
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Juris said...

@Nate: my gut tells me that the average person making $43K does not have $123K in home equity. But I could be wrong.

fred said...

Juris-

You are wrong. The run up in home values has made alot of folks alot of money in their homes.

fred said...

The next shoe to drop is retail. Let the bankruptcies begin!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/business/30shop.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&ref=business&adxnnlx=1230648109-oP/C8bAdUIDjSzHea90FIQ

STepper said...

One of the assets in the chart (and misspelled, to boot) is a "depreciating asset" -- vehicles (misspelled "vehcile"). It loses value so quickly it really shouldn't be counted, except that it usually serves as equity for an auto loan on the other side of the ledger, so it has to be in there.

In Australia people were using their largest assets -- their homes -- as "savings accounts" from which they would borrow money in special mortgage-retail accounts I wonder if the Aussies have gone through a bursting bubble and, if so, how that has affected the Australian economy. I haven't read anything about it (but I haven't looked, either). This new thread raises the issue, however.

On the last topic, the way for the Franken lawyers to play it is that they can't agree to Coleman's changes consistent with their obligations to insure that the MN Supreme Court's (stupid) decision be consistent with equal protection (Bush v. Gore) for absentee voters. That's the only way the Franken people can be both internally consistent and intellectually honest without allowing the Coleman side to steal the election.

STepper said...
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Ezzie said...

I think a tax cut should be part of the stimulus. That said, the psychology of the market probably militates against it being the primary portion of the stimulus, and against a sales tax cut being a big part of the tax cut.

Tax cuts have the advantage of working almost immediately, unlike much government spending.

But right now, part of the problem is that people and businesses are hoarding cash. There's the distinct possibility that people do what the banks did - take the money and sit on it because they're worried about the economic future.

We're essentially in a prisoner's dilemma. The best outcome across all people is for everyone to spend. But the best individual choice is always to cheat by saving.

The advantage of government spending is that you know it will actually get spent. (And, of course, the disadvantage is that you might not like how it gets spent.)

The sales tax cut makes sense in theory, but I don't think it will be particularly useful. The sales tax on most items isn't a barrier to entry. Very few people will not buy consumer goods because of the $2 or $3 in taxes. There are large taxes on big consumer goods. . . but I'd imagine that's what consumers are least inclined to invest in right now.

James said...

The truth is that a strong middle class is unnecessary for a robust economy. There is no reason to believe that, with the proper incentives such as reducing the tax on capital gains, an incredibly wealthy and small upper class could not support growth with the remainder of the population mostly providing services.

The observation that the wealthy spend less as a percentage of income on the "real economy" is irrelevant and misleading. Bolstering the middle class through social engineering would result in the same effect occurring within the middle class thus negating any gain. Not to mention that at least some of this behavior is an effect of the system rather than some inherent truth about consumer behavior.

All Mr. Silver's article points out is that cutting capital gains taxes rather than payroll taxes would go a long way to cementing the income gap between classes. The question then is not whether this is economically sustainable, but rather if this is socially desirable.

bibletoenail said...

Nate reminds me of the guy in the Errol Morris movie Mr. Death. Fred Leuchter, Mr. Death, became the country's leading expert on electric chairs, because no one else wanted to do it. Then he decided if he was an expert in electric chairs he must be an expert in other kinds of death chambers too, so he became an expert in gas chambers too, and ended up going to Auschwitz and "proving" the Holocaust did not really happen.

Nate started by analyzing elections, now he's explaining economics to us. If he's an expert in the one, he must be an expert in the other, right?

Ezzie said...

Uhh, Bibletoenail - Nate got his start in Econ. Graduated from Chicago with an Econ Degree, was an Econ consultant for a couple years.

That's where he picked up the skills at statistical modeling.

Pat Kight said...

While I can see the appeal of sales tax holidays, it does nothing to spur consumer spending in the six states without sales taxes (Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, Oregon and Hawaii, which has sales tax that applies to businesses but not consumers). I've heard proposals that would provide some form of direct federal aid to those states, but it's unlikely it would wind up in consumer pockets.

Axiom said...

Typically wealthy folks are in businesses or investments that produce income, not aquire wealth that does not produce income like your house. Wealthy folks use corporations and tax laws to their advantage more often than the poor to retain much of that wealth.

Juris said...

(OK, I stand corrected.)

One extension of Nate's reference to changing taxes might be the so-called "flat tax" or "fair tax." This is always something proposed by the well-to do, and touted as "fair" because the tax rate is identical at all levels of earned income (after allowing for some exclusions at the lower end of the income scale, including adjustments for number of dependents).

But every so-called flat tax proposal that I've seen always applies only to "earned" income, namely income from salaries and wages and the like. And it always seems to exclude income (capital gains) from investments (stocks, bonds, property, etc.).

And so the "flat tax" proposals strongly favor the rich because a much larger proportion of their incomes is "unearned." On the surface they seem so "fair," but in fact "flat taxes" screw the middle income individual.

polls_apart said...

@Juris:
Just to give an example: I bought my own house for $95K in 1983. I believe it reached a maximum value of approximately $425K before the bubble burst. Our current income is about $130K. So, yes, it is possible for someone with $43K income to have triple that in housing equity.

WV: meboo: meboo Coleman's counting machinations

hill.tops said...

Norm Coleman is the Anti-Christ!

Juris said...

@polls_apart. Thanks for the example; I know it's possible. In my own case, I bought my house for $39K in 1976, but it never grew in value to more than half what yours did at its peak, since I live in a small town that didn't have the large runup in housing values that occurred in many parts of the country. But I don't owe a mortgage to anybody.

For me, however, by far the largest part of my assets are in my 401K (6 or 7 times more valuable than my house.) That's a product of making persistent contributions (employer matched) for many years.

wv: impmkahu (Hawaiian? Finnish?)

Neal said...

To be honest, I still do not see the point of a sales-tax holiday. I am still not going to buy anything I wasn't going to buy anyway; the savings I make will just have to come out of taxes. So how does this help?

fred said...

There is legitimate question of whether sales tax holidays just shift spending or increase it, but we have to do something.

I like very low mortgage rates, as they help both mortgagee's and home prices.

STepper said...

The people who propose tax cuts, or tax holidays (remember Hillary?) simply don't have any ideas and are relying on old GOP "solutions" which only help those who don't need much help.

In a recession you need to create and expand work. Obama is going to make sure that work is in "investment"-style projects -- which is the most legitimate expenditure of borrowed funds.

Tax relief usually only leads to increases in savngs. Since the lending institutions aren't lending anyway, and won't ease up lending practices if they get more savings in, tax relief is meaningless in terms of dealing with the present crisis. But it gives conservatives succor since their mantra is lower taxes, lower taxes. Unfortunately, ideology isn't sufficient and sometimes it's downright dangerous.

In any event, all the tax cut proposals being advanced now were instituted in the last 8 years. We can see how well they worked.

fred said...

Stepper-

This crisis has little or nothing to do with taxes, it has everything to do with regualtion.

such sweet thunder said...

James:

I think your reading is a little sloppy. Nate's point wasn't that a strong middle class is needed for all economic growth, only that a strong middle class is needed for Americas economic growth. This makes intuitive sense because stability seems to me at least to be the cornerstone of economic growth, and we've had an economy built around the middle class for a half a century.

In regards to your broader point about social modeling, one quantifiable reason why we would want to have a robust middle class is that it takes resources to turn new ideas into innovative business models. Assuming that transaction costs for acquiring start up capital is high, it would make sense to want to "spread the wealth" to more people to facilitate start up business.

Juris said...

Re Franken-Coleman: Coleman is now looking at all those absentee ballots -- I mean ALL of them -- as a potential gold mine. And it's something that Franken handed to him by pursuing the course case to count the absentee ballots.

But Coleman's goldmine is something he wants to mine selectively, while Franken would happily allow all the ore to be used because things favor him.

At this stage, I'm not sure Franken has to be "consistent" in the way described above. He just has to avoid any procedure that allows a selective recounting of eligible ballots.

sanjay said...

Nate,

Today I guess is the exception that proves the rule. Your comment today
"then a principal goal of our recessionary fiscal policy should be to encourage consumption" has to be the worst analysis you have done.
Our problem is that we have consumed way beyond our means for all most a decade. To suggest that the cure is more consumption is like suggesting that the cure for addiction is more drugs.

Kevin said...

Nate,
I rarely comment on this site but I read it every day. I have a Master's degree in economics but I work in an unrelated field... reading this type of post makes me feel good all over. Keep up the good work!

Juris said...

@Sanjay: a "cause" of the current crisis is that consumers leveraged everything to keep up their consumption levels -- including borrowing equity from their overpriced homes.

But this doesn't mean that consumption is the enemy to recovery now. Because if unemployment continues to grow (Krugman is suggesting 10% nationally is plausible for 2009), and consumption continues to fall partly as a result, then businesses will reduce investment as well as lose income and cut jobs as a result, thereby contributing to more income decline (and a larger portion of the population that has no source of income except welfare support of some kind).

The point of the Obama investments is likely to be to maintain or create jobs that keep consumption declines from leading to further downward spiraling of the economy as a whole. This does not mean that people should live beyond their means; rather, people should have the means to live and be productive workers (contributing value through their labor) instead of being on the dole. And they should still be able to borrow money for purchasing of longer-life goods (cars, houses).

joel said...

I bought my house in 2001 for 160k and at the top of the bubble they were selling for 450k. A lot of my neighbors must be in upside down mortgages now.
anyway i`m afraid to look at what they are worth now, I don`t think any in the neighborhood have sold in the last year.
In regards to Franken he should insist count all the ballots or none, it would seem either way he would win. It really seems like Coleman is trying to cheat his way in while the freepers are screaming the democrats are stealing the election by counting all the votes.
Seems to me if after 6 years in the senate all you can get is 42% of the vote you deserve to lose.

allene222 said...

There is something called "the wealth effect" Basically, it states that people feel wealthy if their houses go up on value. Not so with stocks, which people think of as retirement savings subject to great swings over the years.

radicallyamerican said...

@ Juris

Any proper flat tax scheme would treat all income the same (labor or capital based). While yes a flat tax system does apply one rate for calculation purposes, it does not imply one “effective tax rate.” Also since corporate income would pass-through to the owners or stock holders, we could then eliminate the double taxation nature of corporate taxation.

Take 3 people with incomes of 40k, 150k, and 300k. How ever they “earned” it doesn’t matter. Allow for a standard deduction of 30k. Applying a 20% tax rate and no other exemptions, they would each effectively pay only 5% (2k/40k), 16% (24k/150k), and 18% (54k/300k). No one actually pays the 20% it’s just a single rate to keep the calculation simple. But as you earn more, you will get closer to it.

The new flat tax system is still progressive in the truest sense of the word (The higher the income, the higher % goes to tax). So it doesn’t just screw the middle class.

Robert Hall wrote a book about it, so did Steve Forbes. Alvin Rabushka has an hour long interview with Russ Roberts on his website, EconTalk, about it. For the real scoop on the Flat Tax, I would start with any of those three.

El Angelo said...

I'm curious to see the new chart/assessment that will be released soon. A lot of people in the NY metropolitan area that I know or know of at the top end of the wealth spectrum bought insanely high-priced houses, condos and co-ops over the past 5 years, and I'm not certain that this chart isn't out of date.

Edward said...

I recently heard a presentation by an economist who was pushing the sales tax holiday. She said it was important to limit it to say 6 months to encourage consumption & not defer its effect.

I like the idea of a cut in the payroll taxes, but I would connect this with an increase in the gas tax. This would provide a market for fuel efficient cars & green energy. However, this would not be as much a stimulus as a redirection in consumption.

Ezzie said...

Sanjay,

You're proposing what Hoover did, not what eventually pulled us out of the Depression. Read Paul Krugman's blog at the times - he'll point out 10,000 times that the major failure in the New Deal was the year they decided to follow your advice and cut back on stimulation of the economy.

Nate's analysis is within the broad mainstream of Keynesian economics.

Your analysis is oversimplified.

The problem is, at its core, about companies that couldn't provide the market with safe information about their holdings when those holdings lost a ton of value in short order. They were overleveraged, and thus couldn't take the shock to their value, and the coming due of additional collateral requirements by the drop in the market value of their assets.

The problem isn't the low savings rate or overconsumption. Low savings didn't cause the bubble. Real estate speculation and a feeling that land could only go up caused the bubble. Overconsumption only comes in as a serious part of the equation for Lehman and other big corporations who overconsumed debt to finance (immensely profitable) activities.

STepper said...

@Fred

I don't disagree with you. All the "conservatives" are touting tax cut schemes to resolve the current crisis. So, that was what I was responding to.

But you're wrong about regulation being a cure all. We need spending to deal with the recession. We need regulation to deal with the fraud and improper lending that has occurred. And in the meantime we probably should modify the mark-to-market rules relating to valuation for the lenders to free up lending.

We're going to get it all from BHO, plus spending on projects which will enhance our country in the future. That's long-sighted political and economic policy which we haven't seen for a long time, primarily because the "conservatives" want to privitize everything. (Many state governments are now dangerously close to privitizing their assets and futures, in order to make do in the present.)

Juris said...

@radicallyamerican: Sorry but most of the proposals for a flat tax have a bit of sleight of hand built into them. See, for example, this description by the Heritage Foundation:

"Compared to the current system, a flat tax is extremely simple. Households pay tax on their labor income using a 10-line individual postcard. They do not need to worry about reporting dividends, interest, and other forms of business/capital income. Those forms of income are taxed at the business level, thus obviating any need to tax them at the individual level since that would violate the principle of no double taxation."

OK, so let's suppose that individual A has no "earned income" (from salaries and wages) but does get $1 million in investment income. Under the flat tax, that that person does not pay any individual taxes on that income (perhaps the investment income comes as a return on investments in an inheritance, or from savings, or wherever).

And suppose person B has $1 million in earned income (great salary!). How much does that person pay under the flat tax?

Now tell me what makes it "fair" that Person A will pay no taxes on that income, while Person B would pay perhaps as much as $150,000 (if the flat tax approximates 15-17%)?

The rub is that there is supposedly an alleged "business tax" imposed on that unearned income. How, where, how much?

What is fair about this tax system?

Steve Roth said...

Nate, it's good to see you hitting this type of topic--both to engage your readership and to maintain that readership. Minnesota's small beer, and if the rest of your readers are like me, their eyes have long been glazing over on that topic.

But be aware: in economics, you don't have the nearly-first-mover advantage that you've had in polling prediction, or anything like it. There's a huge literature (and blogosphere) of statistically sophisticated analysis out there. So you face the danger of looking like a piker and an amateur in the field. Just saying.

If you do continue in this field, I'd like to see you go after a topic that you address tangentially here, and about which I've been banging my spoon on the highchair for some years: government and growth/prosperity. There's piles of evidence demonstrating that progressive policies (including larger government and higher taxes/spending) result in greater growth and prosperity across the board--even for the richest among us--while reducing inequality. You'll find many links in my blog. trueconservative.typepad.com.

I've come to the conclusion that a certain level of government, and significant amount of redistribution (in many different forms), is a systemic necessity for a modern, prosperous, high-productivity economy to thrive--and avoid meltdowns. (Basic reason: it's the only way to maintain widespread consumer--hence aggregate--demand in the face of labor devaluation caused by ever-increasing productivity.)

Among the modern, prosperous countries, only two tax less than we do: Japan and (barely) Korea. The EU15 taxes 40% of GDP compared to our 28%, but they've been growing at the same rate that we have for decades. Tends to suggest that a significant amount of government is a necessary condition to prosperity in developed countries.

So, thanks for this post. Can we have some more, please?

sanjay said...

Juris- I too would like there to be peace on earth but saying so isn't going to make it happen. How exactly do your propose "rather, people should have the means to live and be productive workers"? Forgive me but haven't we been fed bromides for too long?

After you have spent a night partying too much the piper has to be paid- the hangover is inevitable product. That is exactly the situation we are in now. Consumers borrowed and spent and now you and others are proposing essentially that government borrow and spend. How does that not get is back into the same hole only deeper. The economy has to readjust itself to lower level of spending - period. I think the government can help with cushioning the impact (equivalent of asprin and fluids for a hangover)with unemployment benefits, medicaid etc.

Juris said...

@Sanjay: what exactly are you proposing? A drift into the Second Great Depression? T

The means to earn a living is called a job. Jobs can be created in lots of ways. Right now jobs are being lost at a rate of upwards of 500,000 per month.

sanjay said...

for crying out allowed this is not the great depression not even close!
With due respect to Krugman and all those other Nobel prize winning economists if they are so smart how come we are in the mess we are in now. It might be worthwhile remembering that Keynes in 1930 was not the authority he became. If we are going to pay attention to economists let be somebody who hasn't got nor is a candidate for a Noble prize.

The biggest distinction between the current condition and the great depression is that we have a much bigger safety net- total government spending accounts for 40% plus of GDP now. Plus we have the whole system of bank deposit insurance. It was the cascade of bank failures that made the problem what it was.

If we are going to use the Great depression as a case in point lets remember that it wasn't solved until WW2 - so who else should we going to war with?

sanjay said...

Juris- there is a simple concept called regression to the mean. It should be clearly evident except to few posters here that the "prosperity" of the last few years was a complete illusion supported by an asset bubble and irresponsible lending. Therefore if there is a mean growth rate and we were above it for a number of years then we will be below it for a number of years - that is regression to the mean.

If we keep the essence of free market in place- a function credit system, sensible regulation the rule of law etc then the economy will recover and be stronger. On the other hand if we mess around with it- ill advised bail outs etc. the problems will be worse not better.

Juris said...

Sanjay: nobody knows the future.

But take a look around at facts on the ground concerning the financial crisis both in the U.S. and internationally.

What did not allow us to avoid the Great Depression is what Hoover tried to do for 4 years.

Clearly a lot has to be repaired in the financial system, including creating new regulatory mechanisms.

In the meantime, I'm not willing to wait around til we have 20% unemployment while these mechanisms get their temporary fix.

BTW/ your comment about war is silly and doesn't advance your argument.

radicallyamerican said...

@ Juris

The system you describe, would indeed be "unfair." Thats not the system I referenced.

I believe I said, eliminate corporate taxation and force the profits to be placed on share holder's or owner's tax return.

I think we're talking past one another. Under the flat tax system described by the Heritage Foundation, yes that would be the way you described it. Awful. But not all flat taxes are created equal. Saying "Flat Tax = Unfair" is a faulty use of logic.

A proper flat tax system would be different. The three sources I mentioned earlier are great places to start for a more serious flat tax debate.

sanjay said...

Juris- you are a fountain of platitudes. "jobs can be created in many ways" Would you care to share them?

sanjay said...

Juris- quite to the contrary. All of you folks trying to fight the last war use the Great Depression and argue that the tools that FDR used should be used this time. At the end of the day the most effective tool used by FDR was WW2.

The bottom line is that what FDR did excluding WW2 didn't solve the problem. If it didn't solve the problem then why would it solve the problem now even if the situations were analogous.

Juris said...

@radicallyamerican: Thanks. I don't have time to check those sources now. If you want to provide some specific links that get at how "unearned" or "nonlabor" income would be taxed at the individual level, I'd be happy to look at them.

Should I scratch the Heritage Foundation off my list of authoritative sources of information about tax proposals from the conservative side?

One problem I have when I read through Steve Forbes' and several other descriptions of the flat tax is that they try to sell the tax for its simplicity -- you can file a postcard, it says. I'm all for tax simplification, but let's not be silly about it. There would still have to be withholding, documentation of income, and so forth, or the system won't work at all.

There can be no paperless, zipless tax system.

polls_apart said...

@sanjay:
I would care to share a way of creating jobs with you. Since the Reagan administration, we have been accumulating an "infrastructure deficit" in the country in things ranging from highways and bridges to water systems and power distribution. That is an obvious way of creating jobs. I don't know if you saw the news item last week about the burst water main in MD just outside DC. The amount of maintenance needed by the DC area water system alone is staggering, and less well-off areas (such as Prince Georges Co.) are balking at the increases in rates needed to pay for it. Multiply this by the whole country (and apply it to other worthy infrastructure goals) and you have a large pool of jobs as a part of a possible stimulus package.

Ezzie said...

Sanjay,

You're right, this isn't the Great Depression, thanks to government programs. Its still a huge crisis.

The Great Depression is instructive because we're in the same kind of mess - massive bank undercapitalization leading to a refusal to lend. We're in a blend of the GD and the liquidity trap of the Japanese Lost Decade.

You're also right that the New Deal didn't end the Depression. It did, however, alleviate it greatly. It took WWII to end it.

This helps my point, not yours. The problem with the New Deal was that it was too small. The reason WWII ended the Depression was that massive and previously unseen levels of government spending on the war effort stimulated the economy (and ushered in a twenty-five year economic golden age).

And your argument about economists is retarded.

We should ignore Krugman and his ilk because people ignored their warnings over the past few years and it worked so well?

We should ignore Nobel winners and people of similar caliber because Keynes didn't publish the general theory in 1930? Huh?

Juris said...

Sanjay: jobs are created when (a) people hire other people, and (b) people create their own jobs through their own work, entrepreneurship and initiative. You can look it up (subject: labor economics) for a more complicated description if you need one.

In both cases, there is usually a product from the jobs that contributes something for sale to the market or for the public good (e.g., public services).

To my knowledge, nobody is proposing the creation of make-work jobs that won't create added value to the economy. If you think Obama is proposing that you are really missing what he's saying.

Of course there are slackers and flim-flam artists everywhere. And there are differences in people' skills, health, disability, etc. So I probably can't do your job and you can't do my job, for example. (Except today, when I am not working....)

juvanya said...

I've been saying this for awhile that the middle class drives the economy. But, neocons and regular conservatives don't seem to be able to comprehend this.

Joe C said...

Nate,

I think you were incorrect in your response to Juris.

Having reviewed your source, I'm fairly confident that the numbers for Primary Residence are the value of the asset (i.e., the entire value of the house), not the net equity.

I believe this is confirmed in the "Recent Changes in US Family Finances..." document:
-- Table 8b shows the Median value of Primary Residences for 2004(among families holding such asset) to be $160,000.
-- Contrast this with footnote 36, which says "Among all homeowners in 2004, median home equity was $86,000".

Also note that in table 8, Primary Residence is just titled "Primary Residence", whereas two columns over non-residential property is labeled "Equity in non-residential property". The difference in labeling would imply that Primary Residence is not an equity number.

If you want to modify the analysis to be based on equity and not home value, you could factor in the numbers from table 11, which lists family holdings of debt.

juvanya said...

This also proves that the so-called FairTax is a load of hocus.

Juris said...

@Joe C: I hope Nate follows up on your advice.

I did have a hard time conceiving how that typical moderate-low income earlier could have that much equity -- on average -- especially knowing that many people have taken equity out of their homes to keep on spending while average personal incomes were declining the last several years.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

Nate,
Thanks for pointing out a treasure trove of data and then analyzing it as well. I would point out however that Barro's research suggests that "tax holidays" are ineffective because people rationally know that they are temporary. Thus a permanent reduction in one or more of the regressive taxes would be more effective. On the other hand, Modigliani's research suggests that temporary government expenditures are effective because the money actually gets spent. Lastly, let me point out that alot is hidden in these aggregate income classes. The top 1% skews the top 10% data considerably. Casual examination of the median versus mean income data by class shows this. Also, data from Berkeley shows that in 2006 the top 10% had about 49% of the income, but the top 1% had about 23% (including capital gains). A similar thing applies to the asset data. If one were able to subdivide the top 10% data it would assume an almost exponential shape with respect to the patterns you have observed. The remaining 9% are not terribly different from the rest of the population with respect to proportions of the kinds of assets they possess.

Ezzie said...

As an aside, to make my point that the New Deal was effective, just not as effective as the bigger stimulus of the war - percent growth in GDP (Chained 2000 dollars).

1930: -8.6%
1931: -6.4%
1932: -13%
1933: -1.3% [New Deal Starts]
1934: 10.8%
1935: 8.9%
1936: 13%
1937: 5.1% [real GDP = 1929 levels]
1938: -3.4% ["fiscally responsible" cutbacks]
1939: 8.1%
1940: 8.8%
1941: 17.1% [buildup for war and war]
1942: 18.5%
1943: 16.4%
1944: 8.1%

oldwhiteandpoor said...

Sales tax holidays are regressive. Those who can soend reap the benefits, those who cannot spend get no help.

oldwhiteandpoor said...

That chart is misleading: Americans in the bottom income quintile rarely buy homes.

counsellorben said...

Nate,

Your proposal of a payroll tax reduction is intriguing.

Our tax system has moved to favoring capital income over earnings, with the result that the personal tax system has been skewed to favor the wealthy over workers.  Further, the arguments by the anti-tax crowd about the double taxation of capital income have little merit, since the effective rate of taxation on corporate earnings in the US is very low, despite the US having a high corpoate income tax.

It is time to overhaul our tax system.  The best solution probably is to eliminate corporate taxes, and replace corporate taxes with a credit invoice value-added tax.  Second, the rates of personal taxation for capital income and earned income should be equal.

These measures would go far toward re-establishing a fair balance in taxation between labor and capital, and would also serve to strengthen the middle class.

Since the US is a consumption based economy, the positive effects of stimulating consumer spending through a re-allocation of the tax burden likely would be the best means of making this recession less severe, and possibly shorter.  Since a far larger portion of each dollar retained by a middle class person is will be spent, this type of targeted change will have a far more positive impact on consumer spending.

radicallyamerican said...

@Juris

The first source I would suggest is:

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/_featuring/alvin_rabushka/

Its an hour long interview and explains it well.

Then I would suggest:

"The Flat Tax" by Robert Hall with Alvin Rabushka. Amazon is best to look up these books, posting their long-URLs would just be a mess here.

Also I've not personally read it, but I understand "The Flat Tax Revolution" by Steve Forbes to be consistent with Hall's book. Its just newer with updated figures.

Milton Friedman makes the case for the flat tax on pg. 174 of "Capitalism & Freedom" He also talks about passing through corporate income on personal ledgers for tax purposes.

As far as the Heritage Foundation goes, I can't make a judgement as to their worthiness. I looked at their flat tax stuff you posted and they seem to be balanced in analysis but the system they analyzed is broken as you noted earlier.

The system Hall proposes, is just that simple. You can handle withholdings, income documentation, and the rest of the exemptions (in my eyes there would only be a handful) on a single postcard. Maybe using both sides at the most. Its hard to believe but in truth it really would work without much change. I can't begin to explain it fully in a comments space. Its one of those too good to be true things that no ones ends up believing, when reality is that this one actually delivers. It would never be totally paperless, but it would be definately be less paper than is used today. Maybe people wouldn't be so afriad of Apr 15th if they could figure out how to be compliant.

I'm going to write a blog post on my site later this week about it, now that you've raised the issue of confusion. The link is in my name.

@juvanya

The fair tax is not a load of hocus, but I wish the supporters of the fair tax would stop lying to people about their proposed 23% tax rate. Under their proposal its a 30% rate, so the tax makes up 23% of the total bill. These are not equivalent statements. The major difference in between the fair tax and the flat tax is that taxing income distorts labor and taxing consumption distorts spending. Distortion is impossible to escape, its just which distortion do we want to live with.

Hope all these sources help.

dsimon said...

radicallyamerican:

The problem with a flat tax is that no one really believes on one. Not even Steve Forbes.

Your proposal starts with a deduction of $30k and then applies a 20% rate. But that's not a flat tax: it's a two-tier system with a 0% rate up to $30k and a 20% rate on all income above that amount.

If the justification for the 0% rate is that people who are earning below $30k can't afford to pay any taxes (or shouldn't have to do so), what is the justification for having people who make $30k pay the same rate on each additional dollar as people who are making far more? Why not bump people up to the "full" rate gradually as they become more able to pay it? And there's your progressive rate system.

Flat tax advocates say the system would be simple. But one can have a very simple progressive system. The only complexity added by a progressive system is looking up a number in a chart after figuring out one's adjusted gross income. The complexity in our present system comes from figuring out the AGI, not the rates applied to it. A tax return for a progressive system could still be done on a postcard.

And when he was running for president, Forbes argued that the tax cut from a flat tax would stimulate the economy. But that's an argument for a tax cut, not for a flat tax system--which, as I pointed out, not even he really believes in.

Without spending cuts (probably dramatic ones), every tax dollar not paid by high-income earners will have to be picked up by other income groups. And I think one would be hard-pressed to find lower and middle class households who think they should pay more in taxes.

dsimon said...

It seems to me that Nate's analysis assumes that people's spending depends their net worth, including the value of their homes. I'm not sure this is true, and I'd like to see evidence to support it.

If I haven't taken out a home equity loan and I'm making just as much in income as I did before, why would my spending habits change? I'm not spending my home; I'm living in it for the long term. If I have no expectation to sell it soon, if my plans don't rely on its value to fund my retirement (or if I'm not going to retire any time soon), and if other aspects of my life are status quo, it's unclear to me why I would suddenly cut back on my typical consumption.

Now if I thought my job was in danger, I'd have a considerable incentive to cut back on spending to prepare for a possible period of unemployment or a pay cut. But I've been renting for my adult life, so perhaps there's something I'm missing here.

radicallyamerican said...

@dsimon

Technically Yes, it is a two tiered system. Phrase it however you want. Its a single rate with one standard deduction. And its progressive. I came up with the numbers off the top of my head just to give a clear example. An actual plan would have to have meaning/justification behind the numbers. As you pointed out about the 30k. For my purposes here it was just out of thin air for illustration. At any rate, you can't say its not progressive, which is what people (the masses) want anyways.

I'm not so sure Steve Forbes doesn't believe in the Flat Tax, his president bid hinged on it. And please don't say no one is a believer. I know people that are, and I certainly am for what its worth. I can surely count Robert Hall, Alvin Rabushka, and all the Friedmanites out there in my ranks as well.

I certainly agree with you about progressive system could be made simpler if we simplified figuring out AGI. That is the crux of the issue. But the justification for one rate instead of a schedule of rates is that people around the cut offs for the increases would face different incentives that may distort their willingness to be productive into the higher levels. Setting one cut off and doing so at a low figure, means that the incentives are pretty standard across the majority of workers/capital income earners with regard to productive decisions. And also making corporate and personal income all the same rate, reduces any incentive to divert resources into the lower income category.

The flat tax system as I've argued, removes the double corporate tax. This would be a tax cut for businesses and their shareholders/owners stimulating the economy. This is the correct worded view of Forbes, Hall and Rabushka et al. So it is an argument for a tax cut that is a direct result of the flat tax system.

To your last point, I agree whole heartedly that the flat tax is not a cure all. It would be better than the 66k page book that we have for income tax deductions now, but spending has to come into check if we're going to make any real progress.

Juris said...

@radicallyamerican: I confess I haven't had time to explore all the sources you mention but I did find the Hall and Rabushka manuscript (Hoover Institution Press) on line here.

Their proposal has exactly the same provision mentioned in the Heritage Foundation source that I cited earlier: there are individual taxes and business taxes; anything taxed under business tax wouldn't be "double taxed" (a common reference in flat tax proposals); individual capital gains, whether on personal property (homes) or stocks and bonds or other financial investments would not be subject to individual taxation since these gains will be presumed to have been taxed elsewhere already. (Hall & Rabushka: "Capital gains would be taxed exclusively at the business level, not at the personal level. In other words, our system would eliminate the double taxation of capital gains inherent in the current tax system.")

As a result, under the so-called flat tax you can end up with the person (individual) who earned $1 million in wages (i.e., from his labor) being taxed at a high rate (19%, as in the Hall-Rabushka book), but the person (individual) who earned $1 million as a capital gain on property or other investments would pay nada on those earnings.

As Hall and Rabushka write: "The other piece [aside from the business tax] is the wage tax. Each family pays 19 percent of its wage, salary, and pension income over a family allowance (the allowance makes the system progressive). The base for the compensation tax is total wages, salaries, and retirement benefits less the total amount of family allowances."

And later: "For the 80 percent of taxpayers who don’t run businesses,
the individual wage tax would be the only tax to worry about. Many features of current taxes would disappear, including charitable deductions, mortgage interest deductions, capital gains taxes, dividend taxes, and interest taxes."

"Again, we stress that the wage tax is not a complete income tax on individuals; it taxes only wages, salaries, and pensions. The companion business tax picks up all other components of income. Together they form an airtight tax system."

But according to our reckoning, the hard working wage-earning chap pays $190,000 in taxes (less the family allowance) on his $1 million in earnings; the fellow who may not work lick but who is lucky enough to receive $1 million a year because, perhaps, he inherited a fortune in property or made some good investments, pays not $1 in taxes on that income, not even a "capital gains" tax at a preferred rate, but instead niente, nada, nichevo, zip.

Now the "theory" behind this is again that taxing the person on those gains would be double taxation. But what is overlooked is that taxing the wage earner could equally be double taxation since the company for which someone is working (assuming he's not self-employed) would have paid taxes already on the profits earned from the company's business.

In sum, the Heritage Foundation summary is consistent with the Rabushka summary. You can't disown one without disowning the other.

And we end up with the huge inequity that you yourself conceded earlier was an unacceptable inequity. The leisure class makes out like bandits.

dsimon said...

I'm not so sure Steve Forbes doesn't believe in the Flat Tax, his president bid hinged on it. And please don't say no one is a believer.

If one believes in that standard deduction, then one not a believer--and that goes for Steve Forbes, regardless of his claims to the contrary. Forbes, like you, proposed a two-tiered system that goes from 0% to the "flat" rate. And since he, like just about everyone else, thinks that people who make very little should have to pay any income tax at all on those earnings, just about no one believes in a flat tax. It's a two-rate system, regardless of whether one calls the initial exemption a "deduction" or a tax of 0%. I'm not going to argue semantics; they amount to the same thing.

At any rate, you can't say its not progressive, which is what people (the masses) want anyways.

But a system can't be both "progressive" and "flat." Because of the two tiers, it does not treat each dollar earned the same way, and so is no longer flat. And if one is willing to accept a two-tier system, I don't see why more tiers are unacceptable. Indeed, as I argued above, one could use the same justification for the two-tier system to argue that it's unfair to require low-income households to pay the same "full" rate as everyone else instead of gradually being bumped up to it.

The flat tax system as I've argued, removes the double corporate tax.

Eliminating the double corporate tax is not an argument for a flat tax. It's an argument for eliminating the double corporate tax (whatever that is--are we talking about taxation of dividends?). One could easily have a progressive system without the double corporate tax.

I agree whole heartedly that the flat tax is not a cure all. It would be better than the 66k page book that we have for income tax deductions now

Again, that's not an argument for a flat tax; it's an argument for getting rid of all the deductions that make the system complicated. The only difference in complexity between a flat tax and a progressive tax is looking up a number in a chart, and I don't think that's enough of a difference to justify a flat tax on that basis.

but spending has to come into check if we're going to make any real progress.

Again, that's an argument for lower taxes. But it doesn't get to why a flat tax would be better than a progressive tax. Even if we had the massive spending cuts that a 20% "flat" tax would require, those cuts would not resolve the question as to how to fairly distribute the tax burden of paying for whatever government expenses are left.

Most of the flat tax arguments are non sequiturs. Then production incentive argument may have some merit, but I saw little evidence during the Clinton years of people avoiding being productive so as to stay out of higher income tax brackets. To the extent that any of that occurs, it would have to be balanced by the negative effects of forcing those less able to pay taxes to pay a greater share of whatever government services we have.

radicallyamerican said...

It seems as though my memory of the Hall/Rabushka plan was false. I can admit that. So as per your words I disown both plans and any other that excludes capital income.

However I am clear on which flat tax system I advocate for. My position was never up for debate. The plan would count labor and capital income all the same and be placed on everyones individual tax return (or joint if unionized).

We can get this right if we really wanted to design a system like we gave a damn about its operational effects. This is as much a real part of our lives as any other aspect, yet we treat it as if there's nothing we can do. I'm not sure if there is enough political will to get this done. But this is why I write.

Juris said...

@radicallyamerican: thanks for your response. I am open to revisions of the tax system, including simplification and improved horizontal equity (people of equal income and circumstance getting taxed at the same rate on all sources of income).

I am not opposed to a flat tax that meets those goals -- or to a two-level tax as dsimon has described it. But I also am sympathetic to a more graduated, progressive system.

BTW/ contrary to what might have been said by someone earlier o this thread, I don't think there is overwhelming support for the progressive income tax. There is a lot of support for tax equity (horizontal equity) and a flat tax has some appeal unless people notice the kind of thing I have brought out about the unequal treatment of earned and unearned income.

jstratt said...

In reading these comments I wanted to add on to Juris point about the impact of the recession on the average person. A couple of months ago I tried to model this situation.

The basic impact I came up with is

2004 2008
Assets 173 149
Debt 95 120

In simple terms assume the average person has their asset values drop by 20% and they have 50% debt. The impact on their net worth is a 40% reduction.

Middle Man said...

Nate, it's not quite that simple. What you have illustrated is the wealth effect, but there are other channels by which expansionary and contractionary forces flow. The most important of these is monetary conditions, which has become effectively tighter for many sectors in the economy despite moves in the official interest rate from the middle of last year. The main reason for this is banking system losses (shadow or otherwise) that on a sufficient scale have a profound effect on underwriting. As the headlines indicate, in this recession, the losses have been particularly acute, and by consequence, entire sectors of the credit provision apparatus have effectively shut down. The securitization business, for example, waned rather quickly in advance of the onset of the recession after the collapse of the Bear Stearns hedge funds and the mounting subprime, SIV and CDO losses. That had a stronger recessionary impact than the wealth effect, (indeed, the pace of the slowdown was notable even before the latest acceleration), which by itself would probably be largely offset by the fall in commodity prices right now were it acting alone.

Needless to say, the Lehman collapse exacerbated this something awful by shutting down the repo and money markets, causing massive strain on trade credit and throwing the CDS market deeper into turmoil. The rest, as they say, is history.

There are other dimensions to this as well, especially vis a vis international effects, so it shouldn't be reduced to a wealth effect analysis by its lonesome.

dsimon said...

radicallyamerican: The plan would count labor and capital income all the same and be placed on everyones individual tax return (or joint if unionized).

Perhaps I'm missing something, but does counting labor and capital income all the same have anything to do with instituting a flat or progressive rate system? Couldn't one count income the same under a progressive system? Again, it seems to me like another non sequitur.

juris: contrary to what might have been said by someone earlier o this thread, I don't think there is overwhelming support for the progressive income tax. There is a lot of support for tax equity (horizontal equity) and a flat tax has some appeal unless people notice the kind of thing I have brought out about the unequal treatment of earned and unearned income.

I'd like to see the data on that. I read an article in the NY Times a year or two ago that said that people overwhelmingly favored getting rid of the estate tax--until they were informed as to how few people were affected by it and what kinds of tax increases or program cuts would be needed to eliminate it in a fiscally responsible manner. Then there was a substantial majority against getting rid of it.

Moreover, the whole idea of "tax equity" is a fuzzy one. I'm sure most people support "equity," but one can define it in a m multitude of ways. Is it to spread the tax burden numerically equally? That's "fair" in some sense of the word. Then we should have a head tax regardless of income (which no one supports). Is it to treat each earned dollar the same? Then we should have a true flat tax (which, again, few people have proposed). Or do we want to equalize the unpleasantness of paying taxes? Since it's harder for lower income groups to pay the same rate on each additional dollar of income than higher income groups, then a progressive system equals that out. So how one defines "equity" affects how one designs the system; but saying that people support "equity" doesn't tell us what form of equity they support.

Also, I've read that once one takes into account property taxes, sales taxes, wage taxes, etc., our present system turns out to be pretty flat. Many of these other taxes are regressive. Proposals to do away with these taxes and subsume everything under a flat income tax would require a far higher income tax rate than most people pay now. Proposals that do not take into account these other taxes should consider their effect on the overall "flatness"--or fairness--of the system.

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Juris said...

@dsimon: I don't think we're in disagreement on anything fundamental here.

The concept of tax equity is elusive because it involves taking some other conditions into account (perhaps work status, family size, etc.) in order to create fairness. An essential starting element, however, is that every individual in principle owes some taxes on their income (though there may be some tax "forgiveness" for low-income people). And so when I evaluated those so-called flat taxes, and found that common flaw of excluding "non-labor" income, a warning alarm went off. On its face this is inequitable.

It's why I view the flat tax proposals as deceptive. They promise post-card tax submission, getting rid of special deductions (home mortgage, etc.) and depreciation schedules (instant costing of business investment, for example). But what it amounts to in fact is allowing people with substantial investment income to pay much lower taxes than people with an equivalent income earned through their work. So it's hardly surprising that such a seemingly "fair" tax is only promoted by people on the political right.

Regarding progressivity, I used to teach a segment of a policy course in which I addressed principles of tax fairness. We evaluated the issue of relying on property taxes as the principal funding of public schools, for example. When I added a segment about flat vs. progressive income taxes, I found that the students (college level) had no sense at all of the rationale behind either estate taxes of progressive income taxes. In my generation, we knew this. In this generation, almost none could come up with any arguments in favor.

Now I think (I hope) the terrible economic fix we're in and Obama's willingness to talk about the unfairness of the Bush tax cuts will bring back both the vocabulary and the reality of progressive taxation.

Right now, as you note, the overall distribution of the tax burden is quite flat despite the apparent progressivity of the personal income tax; and this is partly due to the different tax treatment for different kinds of earnings (from work, from investments, for example). But substantially also due, as you mention, to payroll taxes, property taxes, and user taxes for public services.

wv: gritin (my teeth, and waiting for the Bush era to end)

radicallyamerican said...

dsimon: I think we're down to splitting hairs at this point. But I'll try one last time to separate it out. Hopefully this adds to the discussion, which would be so much more productive in person, with a whiteboard for us to scrawl on.

My flat tax advocacy doesn't rest on labor and capital income treatment. As Juris has noted, there are several differing proposals for a flat tax I'm just stating how the one I would prefer, would operate. So the way you are interpreting my quoted premise, Yes, tax treatment of income is not a premise that leads to the conclusion that a flat tax is needed.

The detail itself (income type tax treatment) is actually a minor one in terms of operating mechanics of any tax system. It doesn't add any real "costs to the system," by including or excluding certain income type categories.

But minor tweaks can have drastic differences to the end-game. Differences in income type tax treatment changes the dynamics of tax burden. Which turns out to be a huge detail for equality concerns. I think Juris would agree here as well.

Couldn't income all be treated the same under a progressive system? Yes, It certainly could.

I do not debate you that a progressive sliding scale system could be made very simple. And actually I think that the conclusions of both systems would end up at the same conclusion. Joe pays $X , Sally pays $Y. I think, 90% of our disagreement is on a point I hadn't yet made explicitly. I wonder if you'll agree. We differ on Occam's Razor. If we have two systems that reach the same end, the one with less steps, should be preferred.

My point: We can define the single tax rate and the one exemption level such that we achieve the exact same end as a sliding scale would. Joe pays $X, Sally pays $Y. So why add the extra step of looking up which category you belong in. I realize this is not a step so complex that people won't understand it, but the point remains, if you can remove a step and get to the same place without any other consequences, remove the step.

jdk said...

I think you need to check your data.

That idea 12% of the total assets of the bottom 20% bucket comes from "business equity" is highly dubious. What kind of "business" equity are we talking about that is controlled by the bottom 20%?

According to the actual data, which I went ahead and downloaded. There are 3813 households that fall into the bottom 20% bucket (ASSETCAT = 1). Of those, 3798 have 0 business assets (BUS). The 15 that do have business assets have values that range from 5970 to 1300. Moreover, if you look at those 16, it is patently obvious that these data are suspect. What are the odds that 5 of these would all have the same exact AGE of head of household (32), the same exact ASSET [tot. assets] ($1300) and the same exact bus assets [$1300]. In fact, if you look at the other data for these 15, it is patently obviously that the data is fabricated. Sort by assetcat ascending, and BUS descending and then look at AGE, ASSET, BUS, CCBAL, and DEBT.

Moreover, those 15 have negative networth!

So, I don't understand how you came up with "your chart" in the first place.

Moreover, while a Payroll tax holiday is a great idea for a number of well founded reasons (economic stimulus and fairness), your chart even if it was correct and even if the data set was not suspect doesn't have anything to do with those reasons.

There is another source of data that you could also use from the Census. I recall something called the annual March income survey which was done by the census bureau. The was something called FERRET that I used to download the data. I suppose this was around 1999 or 2000.

I've done a quick google, apparently the name has changed.

It is now known as the CPS Annual Social and Economic Supplement, formerly called the March Supplement.

If you really want to think about taxes and the distribution of wealth and economics, Nate; maybe its time for everyone to explore Henry George's 1879 (yes 18 79) classic Progress and Poverty.

If SS were funded by a land (not the improvement) value tax on real estate not actively and actually used for housing or actual food production (apportioned among the states as a direct tax) most of the working and middle class would save money and we would not have the ongoing boom bust cycle cause by real estate speculation [as it has happened yet again]. The are many salubrious effects to tax land value rather than income (especially so regressively like the payroll tax), sales (also regressive) and production in general.

The transition from payroll tax to land value tax could and should happen gradually with the first phase being a reduction in the payroll tax that collects anything more than is currently needed to fund current SS and Medicare obligations. Then, you'd gradually lower the payroll rates further each year (like maybe by a quarter percent and replace the lost income by a national direct and apportioned among the states land (not the buildings) value tax.

There reason to use a direct and apportioned tax is that current local assessments could be used (even if they are bad) and there would be no race to the bottom. I.e. state A could not under assess value to get an advantage on state B whose assessment were closer to true value, because state A would just have to raise its state's rate to collect its pro-rata share.

Where there is no vision, the people perish.

wv. horsen - I am not horsen around with this proposal nor my reprimand for the bad charts Nate used.

jdk said...
This post has been removed by the author.
dsimon said...

So why add the extra step of looking up which category you belong in.

Because it creates what I and many other people believe is most equitable: trying to equalize the subjective burden of paying for the government services we say we want.

There is a marginal value to money. The more you already have, the less each additional dollar is worth. And the less you have, the more each dollar is worth and the greater the burden of paying a portion of it for taxes.

Take someone making $20,000 and someone making $200,000 a year. Give them both a $1,000 raise and tax the additional income at $20%. Is it a greater burden for the lower income earner to pay that $200 or the higher income earner? If it's harder for the lower income earner to do so, can we say that the tax burden is fairly shared? That's not my notion of fairness.

I think we're more than splitting hairs. I think we have very different notions of what constitutes an equitable distribution of the tax burden. We also may have very different assumptions of the effect of different tax schemes on behavior (again, I didn't see anyone avoiding hard work to get into upper income brackets during the Clinton administration when the top income tax rate was higher than it is now).

In any case, we don't want simplicity for simplicity's sake. The question is whether any added complexity is worth the outcome it produces. I could propose a system even simpler than your flat tax: one with no exemption (or, as I call it, a tier at a 0% rate) at all. Or we could just have a head tax and charge people the same amount; that's even simpler than figuring out your AGI and taking some percentage. But few people would consider it fair, and most would be willing to endure the minor complexity to achieve what they feel is a better outcome.

Moreover, given the innumeracy of most people, they'd have to look up how much they owe in a chart even with a flat tax. So looking it up in a chart that uses a progressive system would actually add no complexity.

Jersey said...

"Orthogonal." What a great word for us non-statisticians.

"Extraneous, not pertinent to the matter under consideration; statistically unrelated;
having a set of mutually perpendicular axes, meeting at right angles."

Beating A Dead Bourse said...

Really interesting, useful post, Nate.

FWIW, does anyone else find it slightly outrageous that this unique, crucial data set (The Fed's Survey of Consumer Finances) is conducted only on a triennial basis?

2004 financial data are arguably more relevant/indicative now than 1927 data would gave been in early 1932 -- but hardly what we need for steering the incoming Adminstration's macroecomic and fiscal policy.

The Fed's website proudly states that processing of the 2007 data is now "underway" -- kudos for that!

It goes on to say that they'll publish an article with some 2007 wave 'highlights' in "the first quarter of 2009".

Terrific. I'm in the polling biz myself (if you'll foregive that oxymoron), and we routinely have to simultaneously process data from nationwide samples of the general public in scores of countries (this year, > 120 countries).

Typical time from end of field for an hour-long, in-home, general public survey to final clean data availability: about three weeks (if done by phone, as some are, far faster).

Note to Fed: how 'bout printing a few more bucks and dedicating them to data processing, and/or effort, and/or some caffeine?

Juris said...

@ Beating:

I agree that this series should be both more frequent and produced more rapidly.

There are, of course, other national surveys that capture economic behavior and attitudes on a more frequent basis, such as the monthly Current Population Survey (conducted by the Census Bureau and the Bureau of Labor Statistics) and the consumer sentiment surveys by the University of Michigan and the Conference Board as well as the Panel Survey of Income Dynamics (PSID) and regular updates on employment/unemployment. So we don't have to rely just on the Fed to get good information about the economic situation at the individual-family level.

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