12.24.2008

Mommy, What's an Environmentalist?

Not to go all Media Matters on you, but the Washington Post's lead today strikes me as a bit off-kilter:

In one of the first internal struggles of the incoming Obama administration, environmentalists and smart-growth advocates are trying to shift the priorities of the economic stimulus plan that will be introduced in Congress next month away from allocating tens of billions of dollars to highways, bridges and other traditional infrastructure spending to more projects that create "green-collar" jobs.

The debate has centered on two competing principles in the evolving plan: the desire to spend money on what President-elect Barack Obama calls "shovel-ready projects," such as highway and bridge construction, vs. spending on more environmentally conscious projects, such as grids for wind and solar power.

Lawmakers opposed to the emerging-technology projects accuse their colleagues of using the financial crisis to push through pricey policy proposals that they say would do little to boost the economy in the immediate future.

"If we're going to call it a stimulus package, it has to be stimulating and has to be stimulating now. I think there are members of our caucus who are trying to create a Christmas tree out of this," said Rep. Baron P. Hill (Ind.), incoming co-chairman of the Blue Dog Coalition, a caucus of 51 fiscally conservative House Democrats.
A couple of questions.

Firstly, is it really appropriate to use the somewhat loaded term "environmentalists" to describe people who want greener energy? There are very good economic reasons, and very good national security reasons, to want an alternative to carbon-based fuels. This has very little to do with the save-the-spotted-owls kind of stuff that the term "environmentalists" tends to invoke. It's a bit like using "feminists" when "women" would do.

Secondly, how is it that it's these "environmentalists" who are solely responsible for "trying to shift the priorities" of the economic stimulus package? What are they shifting away from? Had the details of the stimulus been worked out when no one was paying attention? And had they forbidden alternative-energy and "green collar" projects, even though Barack Obama had been talking about such things from his first days on the campaign trail?

There are, obviously, a lot of valid points for discussion about how the government ought to spent hundreds of billions of dollars. But the Post seems to want to frame this is latte-sipping, Sierra Club hippies versus hard-workin', Chevy-drivin', everyday Amur-i-cuns. If that's the paradigm through which this gets reported, it's potentially a pretty damaging one to the Obama administration, and to the cause of energy independence.

89 comments

liforcerenewal said...

I'm a chemist and herbalist who knows what the Earth needs to heal...I still have to go through the same channels (i.e. petitioning, fundraising, and marketing my product) for people to listen. Although change IS needed, it is something that mostly must occur with the average citizens, and however, lies on the government to enforce these laws.

hill.tops said...
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hill.tops said...

I didn't know "environmentalists" was a bad word.

Why even young evangelicals have are enthusiastic about biodegradables and recycling.

interstices said...

One would think that if we're talking $800 billion to be spent, there would be enough for both.

Jonathan Ichikawa said...

I have to take issue with you on the word 'environmentalist,' and especially with your analogy with 'feminist'. These are not dirty words, and they do not describe extreme positions. People who are not environmentalists are people who don't care about the environment. People who are not feminists are people who don't care about equal treatment of women.

And 'women' is NEVER an appropriate synonym for 'feminists'. I'm one but not the other. So is Sarah Palin.

(I am inclined, however, to agree with the analysis in the second and third points.)

Juris said...

Oh my, you caught the WaPo doing the same damn thing that the WSJ does.

See this nice job on the latter by Jonathan Chait in this week's TNR.

wv: desier (I desier a new dictionarie for Cristmus)

capt said...

I quit reading the WaPo years ago.

What do you expect from the M$M/corporate shills?

If you quit reading them, listening to them and sending hits to their stories - they would have to try to be journalists and reporters again.

Currently they have no incentive - the lies and GOP BS is still very profitable.

PaulK said...

The issue of nomenclature aside, the issue is just whether this idea of trying to kill two birds with one stone (so to speak) is effective and efficient.
The alt-energy projects have not been well considered yet. As we have seen with Ethanol subsidies, rushing into a "solution" can have lasting disastrous consequences. Other than an electrical grid expansion, there is nothing that is really well thought through. Even the grid is problematic, since replacing the whole system across the country is too big and expensive, and choosing one base location vs. another is going to be pork barrel politics at its worst. Is the source going to be Texas wind farms, North East wind farms, Arizona solar plants, etc?
Alternative energy is important, but we have to decide where we are going to put those dollars to get the best bang for the buck in the nearer term and longer term. The technology is still evolving and so the choices are hard to make.

Pat Kight said...

While PaulK makes good points about the current state of the art of so-called "green" jobs, injecting some serious federal money into R&D would still stimulate the economy. It could, for instance, employ a whole lot of out-of-work geeks who've seen their jobs outsourced abroad. Construction workers aren't the only ones who are hurting right now. More importantly, it would get us moving toward the president-elect's stated goal of energy independence. To my mind, that's at least as much long-term bang for the buck as throwing the money at roads and bridges, and if it puts people to work, it will also have a positive short-term effect.

Brie said...

I didn't know environmentalists was on the bad list, either.

But I think it's important to reclaim words like 'environmentalist' and 'feminist' - so that what they mean isn't set by the people opposed to the changes they represent.

If you're pro-environment, you should be able to be a proud environmentalist, without getting labeled a 'tree-hugger'.

Letting the real term become associated with the derisive term degenerates what can be accomplished.

Which, incidentally, is why no one claims to be a feminist anymore.

And why buying shoes is somehow asserting your gurl power...

Mrs B said...

feminist and environmentalist are going the same way as "liberal" under Bush. Reclaim our words!

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I saw a special on TV the other day how dairy farmers are able to install systems that cost around $1,000,000 dollars to their farms that produce energy from the methane gas released from cow waste. They not only produce ample energy to run a farm, they also enable farmers to sell energy back to electrical companies.

If these systems could be mass produced in the U.S. and installed throughout the U.S., it would be a win/win/win/win for everyone. Manufacturing jobs created, farmers would prosper, energy would be created, methane release would be reduced and co2 emission from coal plants would be reduced.

Juris said...
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Juris said...

I'm an -istist. Being for something rather than against something is a worthy role. We shouldn't be afraid to be -ists and allow those who want to control our lives brand us and repress our energies.

Ists are good. (Except nihilists, sadists, racists and some others -- choose your own ist to be anti to.)

wv: sesess (don't let it go to your hed)

thepoliticallaxitive said...

I like it how people react to the idea of "green collar" jobs as sort of un-manly act that will only employ people with fancy college degrees.

The fact is alternative energy production requires all sorts of "joe six packs", infact the living legend Joe (well sam) the Plummer would find loads of work on any sort of solar heating projects; I know the ones I designed would require all sorts of joe six pack labor... I feel congress is turning into the house of lords on the democrat side and buzz-word idiots on the republican side

PaulK said...

@Pat Knight, I have to say that Government trying to up its funding for "green" R&D is not likely to add much value in the shorter term. The funding model of Government for R&D is a slow and painful process; it needs to be, else it ends up like TARP where it is just wasteful spending on dubious projects.
Most alt energy R&D with a focus on the D side is being heavily funded by venture money and involved larger companies (acquisitions if nothing else). As you have no doubt seen, there are a lot of companies working on both forms of Solar generation (including panel technology and manufacturing), wind generators (blades, structures, inverters, etc), bio generation and conversion (direct to energy or conversion to oil/gas), storage (batteries, flywheels, chemical conversions), and fuel cells. The part that is lacking is infrastructure (transport of electricity or fuels from site of generation to site of use). The problem is that we are likely to jump the gun if we are not careful. We just do not know what the most effective siting model and generation model is yet.

soozzie said...

As former resident of Berkeley CA, where progressive-radicals reign, the type of "shift" described does not work. In Berkeley, the wingnuts in charge did away with parking in the downtown area to discourage cars. That they did. the cars went to other towns and the downtown commercial area, and the city, has been dying ever since. The city has suffered from numerous shortsighted policies along the same vein.

Infrastructure is a lot of things. Repairing and maintaining the existing investment in roads and bridges is essential to allow the existing economy to flourish; similar investments in green approaches should be made as well. But neither to the exclusion of the other.

PaulK said...

@liberal_defender_of_freedom, I can sell you a $1M system that will produce energy for you and allow you to sell some back. Of course it will take 20 years to repay your investment (which I am assuming you can somehow afford now). Oh, and that assumes energy prices go up and your system is maintained and the cost of maintenance is not too high, etc, etc.
The problem with most of these systems (including most solar) is that they lack a reasonable return on investment (even when subsidized by the Gov) for local use. That can be justified on other factors just as buying a hybrid car is, but we have to move to legitimate scale if we really want to change our energy economics.
We are getting to valid models for alternative energy, but many systems are just not justified by their cost yet. How we spend money now will have a big effect on how much advantage we get from it later. Finding the right scale and right form of energy (input and output) is critical. The Corn Ethanol subsidy fiasco should be a beacon of warning to anyone looking to make policy decisions.

Rudy said...

Speaking of code words, environmentalist is one that is divisive and agenda-driven, not uniting. Most people, including those perceived as the enemies of the enviro-extremists, care about the environment, but balance their rationales with other important needs and desires, such as having ample energy available to power our vehicles, appliances and homes.

Just as ethanol subsidies have proven to be a disaster because of ill-considered economics and unintended consequences (like higher food prices and engine damage), anything the feds get behind in a big way risks locking in an inferior source of new power by de facto dictate. That consequently would crowd out more-deserving alternatives that emerge later because the subsidy dollars have already been allocated, as well as inhibiting new development because the economic upside is truncated.

Technology is evolving. The right paths will get trampled once the economics are right. Manipulating the economics doesn't work, yet that's still the primary justifying rationale of proponents of various (half-baked) schemes.

We must be wary about the economic effects of alternative energy mandates upon energy price and supply availability, and not be driven by environmental tunnel-vision. High oil prices conributed mightily to tanking the economy, and we must avoid hasty fed action that would again serve to inhibit supply and demand.

Solar as a power-plant source is nearly at grid parity if the energy doesn't need to be shipped, but still far away if it does. Moreover, any large-scale energy plant solution (wind, solar or other) is bound to roadblocked with legal maneuvers by some faction purporting to defend another aspect of the environment. Any effort to end-run such tedious and project-killing process by government would be rightly viewed as authoritarian.

John from Taos said...

Excellent post, Nate.

Aris Katsaris said...

When you only allow a word to be used when it means "lunatic" rather than its actual concept, you end up slandering both the word and the concept.

And seriously what the fuck? "Feminist" as a synonym for "woman"? I'm proud to be a feminist and I also am male. That's a prime example of an attempt to slander the meaning of the word and therefore belittle the ideology behind it, instead of expanding it to cover the whole human race, turning feminism into the activity of a subset of woman.

Shame on you going along with the destruction of the words, and the belittling of progressive ideologies like feminism and environmentalism both.

judas_priest said...

Nate:

I think you are overreacting to the article. The substance suggests that money will be going to green projects in a higher proportion than has been typical. What is in dispute is how much higher. Any time the government is spending money there will be conflict over who gets what. Reporting on those disputes in news.

Yes, there are those who want almost all the money to go to concrete and steel projects, while others want a major shift away from that.

If in fact the major emphasis of steel and concrete is the repair of existing infrastructure then the guy who says we shouldn't be building more roads is way off base; by and large we wouldn't be doing that. Here in Oregon there are many roads and bridge in serious disrepair; we cannot wait around until we get another bridge collapse. (If one of the river bridges here should collapse during periods of normal traffic it will make the Minnesota collapse seem trivial.)

But the inferences I draw from the article is that green projects that are already ready to go will get funded in this package. Getting the economy started quickly is the major focus of the package. If that doesn't happen soon there won't be money for anything else down the line for a long time.

Obama has pledged support for a "green" program. He knows well that failure to push for that will weaken his administration and standing. It will come. But what is going on now is whether money will be shifted to longer term projects from that which can be spent now. If the impact won't be significant within two years, it doesn't belong in this bill.

WE should also remember that this will create huge deficits; politically it is important to get as much support behind the bill as possible. Waiting until this package goes through leaves ample time to take up the funding for the "greening" of the economy.

Stephen C. Rose said...

Actually the best argument I have seen against infrastructure (roads) is in this excellent kos piece.

Have moved my blog btw to http://stephencrose.wordpress.com/

Phillip said...

to those complaining about "environmentalist" or "feminsit" being dirty words... the claim was that they are loaded words, not necesarily dirty.

livemild said...

if certain words take on negative connotations-lose them. feminists, environmentalists can be replaced. words and their various meanings evolve.
how many people call them suffragettes these days?

FACT-more people have died from auto pollution than car accidents.
sozzie- there are other places that have limited access for cars and they have been successful. it might be that the downtown area is losing because of suburban areas growing and the economy. downtowns in a great many cities have already died off.

Peter said...

Nate, after a suitable revision to your first point (to attempt to reclaim "environmentalists" from its supposed pejorative status), I hope you will submit your thoughts as a letter to the Post's editors.

Trenchant observations! Thank you, sir.

Edmond said...

I have a different take on the word "environmentalist". I care very much about the environment, even to the point of buying the most energy efficient upgrades to my house short of generating my own energy (ran out of money before I got to the solar panel thing... sorry, we're not all rich enough to save the world) but was told in no uncertain terms by a loacl "environmentalist" that I am NOT one, since I am a hunter, too. With that attitude, I don't want to be an environmentalist.

There is no room in that movement any more for normal people who aren't "perfect" and who don't have infinite resources. Once the term was taken up by a more rarified and elite club, it was absolutely set up to gain negative connotations.

ABowers said...

Back to Minnesota Senate Race - The Minnesota Supreme Court ruled this morning that the counties have until Jan 2 to finish sorting and counting. And then the ballots go to the Secretary of State for counting. At that point, Coleman and Franken can challenge - just as the did with recount. Does anyone have copy of actual ruling?
The counties had stopped all sorting of absentee ballots when Coleman took the case to court. However the Minnesota Supreme Court decided that WRONGLY rejected absentee ballots must be counted. Question: Have the counties started sorting again? What about Ramsey that refused to participate?
Any ruling on duplicates?
Fascinated Observer

livemild said...

ABowers-have you heard anything about the SC ruling on dupes? i was hoping they would rule on the dupes by now, but i havent heard a thing and with xmas tomorrow will we hear before Monday?

livemild said...

ab- i think we wont hear till monday on anything

Barak said...

Nate:

I think that you're being a bit prickly with this one, though I do think that you are one of the most fair-minded commentators around.

My understanding is that there is a tension between 'shovel-ready' projects and wise, long-term investments. The Post does miss some of this nuance but I don't see as nefarious an intent as you do.

Jack-be-nimble said...

I agree that 'environmentalist' is an unfair characterism of these people.

They should properly called 'environmental wack jobs, greenies, whackos, etc.

Jack-be-nimble said...

BTW, I know that Characterism is a word, because I saw it on the "internets"

Jersey said...

Nate is right. The article marginalizes responsible energy and those who support it. Give 'em hell, Nate.

ABowers said...

Minnesota Recount -
Found a copy of the Minnesota Court ruling under an article on TheUptake.com The ruling dealt only with the absentee ballot question - so I assume the duplicate question will come late.
On the absentee ballots, this is waht I gleaned. The counties will go back to sorting and the Court specified that ONLY the four reasons to disqualify an absentee ballot were to be used. They cite the Minnesota Statutes. Hopefull this will cut down on frivolous Coleman challenges. The main difference now is the Court ordered ALL Wrongly rejected absentee ballots to be sent to the Secretary of State to count and ALL identifying information is to be redacted. This should protect the privacy of the voter and make it MUCH harder to selectively challenge ballots from Franken areas. The counties have until Friday, Jan 2, 2009 to finish sorting and get to SOS. Then SOS is to report to the CB on Monday Jan 4. And they will deal with challenges at that time as before. (With only about 1200 absentee ballots fof the SOS to count, there should not be more than a couple dozen challenges which the CB can deal with quickly.
Question for Nate: What is you estimate of percentage of advantage for Franken, if any, of these absentee ballots.
Hope this was helpful.
Obsessed Observer

Davy said...

Little off topic but I just saw this on MSNBC:

"But after losing more than $1 billion of his clients' money to Bernard Madoff, Rene-Thierry Magon de la Villehuchet had enough. He locked the door of his Madison Avenue office and apparently swallowed sleeping pills and slashed his wrists with a box cutter, police said."

Wow, I think the depression has started again. Bankers are starting to jump out of windows.

wv: braces - braces yourselves. It's about to get nasty

judas_priest said...

2 Steven Rose:

That Kos article may be arguing against a straw man.
Existing roads and bridges are in bad shape, approaching dangerous, all over the country. Funding the required repairs to these pieces of infrastructure creates no new roads. Those (hypothetical) new roads are the target of that article. Other than complaining about the shoddy building of more recent roads, it does not deal with repair of infrastructure.

FWIW, one of the reasons for such shoddy construction is that when the Congress set up the interstate highway system int he 1950s, the standards it adopted were very weak regarding durability. That way, they could get credit for building all those miles of highway, but the roads were virtually guaranteed to require extensive maintenance, which had to be paid for by the states.

livemild said...

thanks ab- i found it helpful.
this sounds a little different then i thought it was. not knowing the voter should also make the process go faster.

livemild said...

judas - i also heard that during the fifties there were no building regulations in San Francisco. thus much of the buildup in the bay area, and there was a great deal of construction then,is UNSAFE.

if memory serves me correctly San Francisco has had an earthquake or two. glad i dont live there anymore!

i would like to see this new WPA kind of thing be based on more than adequate regulations.

Jeremy Steven said...

NATE,

Love your site. I've been following it since about July. Keep up the good work.

Keep up the incisive posts like this one. I like this kind of analysis.

PaulK said...

@livemild, of course SF had building codes in the 50s. The issue is that Earthquake standards change over the years, especially after analysis from previous Earthquakes. Anchorage, Coalinga, Mexico City, Bay Area, LA and other earthquakes since then have taught us new issues to add as regulation.
But, even in the 50s, the rules were pretty tough. That is why you do not see un-reinforced masonry (vs. Coalinga and Mexico City), a lot more control regarding building on fill (liquefaction), tie downs and shock pads on bridges, etc. Retrofitting goes on constantly throughout Ca based on changing/stricter codes. Consider why SF is building a new Bay Bridge!

The Religious Left said...

Nate- you go all Media Matters on us! Hey, all one needed to do was cut and paste from there (and from here, of course) to places like Fox and CNN and anywhere else where misinformation is a swiftly purveyed commodity. It's really not all that difficult to fight back with those liberally biased facts. You, my friend are on the vanguard of a movement of critical thought that is taking the MSM by it's tail and twirling it around flinging it across the room like a cat that just ripped up your favorite sofa. Or, rather, like yanking the leash of a dog on a walk that insists on sniffing every turd it can, while there is so much more in the park to enjoy. Focused on a turd, the WaPo writer thinks he or she has a story with this "shovels vs. green power" story. This meme could be seen like a McCain campaign tactic or sinister reactionary force that wants to circumvent the change we deserve, yet, more than likely, its more sloppy, lazy journalism. It's what CNN does particularly and the WaPo is obviously an eager participant: "on the other hand" journalism which masquerades as giving all viewpoints a fair shake (instead of well thought out story or deeper investigation). This story seems to dabble in the above, and most MSM stories are the casualty of this "marketplace of ideas" syndrome wrought by the Gingrich factor- in fact much of the MSM seems to be stuck on 1994 autopilot to their own detriment. Notice that the story only briefly quotes an "enviro" from Friends of the Earth, making him look whiny, and they could have colisited opinion or thoughts from a wide range of groups or individuals (FOUR people contributed to this?!)

At the very least, you in particular are licensed to take issue with their BS. Why? Because you're a ROCK STAR (Uber-geek type, which is all the rage in SF) and THEY LISTEN TO YOU.

livemild said...

PAULK- i have heard from several people that they dumped the codes in the fifties in SF. also i think PBS did a special on the great earthquake and also mentioned the codes being dumped. it was a real eyeopener.
much of the earthquake wreckage was dumped in a swampy area and that is where a great deal of the new building took place. on a precarious swamp that is now sort of filled! nice touch that.

if and when (when is most experts take) another quake strikes the bay area it will make the last quake look like a picnic

jdizzle said...
This post has been removed by the author.
PaulK said...

livemild, they did not forgo the standards. There has been accusations of not enforcing the codes as well as they should have during peak growth, but much of that has been rectified over the years.
The fill issue is the "Marina" area of SF. During LP, a number of apartments were severely damaged because the Marina is loose fill (dumped material, as you say). The Marina has wooden houses on foundations with tie-downs (so the building does not jump off). What caused the failures were apartments built over parking garages with not enough structural support on the garage side.

Michael (mbw) said...

BREAKING NEWS-
MNSC just denied Coleman's motion re the duplicate ballots. They did this without prejudice to any potential future court challenge.
As I understand it, this means that unless there's a nasty surprise in the absentees, Franken will be certified winner on Jan. 4 and sworn in. Depending on the margin, and on whether Coleman sincerely believes there much evidence of a significant double-count tilt, he may go to court to overturn that.

Jason said...

Liberal, conservative, environmentalist, feminist... the connotation of these words are only negative to those who have heard of the extremists that fall under each category. Fr example, if you listen to Limbaugh, all you'll hear about are the agendas and actions of the liberal extremists, the fringe, which brings about an overall negative feeling about liberals.

The fringe, being the most exciting bunch, does get the news, though, which is why the prevailing notion of "environmentalist" is so negative.

hill.tops said...

THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR COLEMAN!!!

loner said...

Last line in the denial of Coleman's petition:

2. Petitioner's motion for a temporary restraining order be, and the same is, denied as moot.

Everything decided as expected. The now agreed upon procedure for dealing with the incorrectly excluded absentee ballots can be implemented, the State Canvassing Board can then certify and the losing candidate can then contest. Double-counting is not excluded as a reason for that contest.

hill.tops said...

Loner-

do you know what the deal is on the contested ballots that were withdrawn?

loner said...

hill.tops—

They're part of the current count where Franken is ahead by 48 or 47 or 46 depending on where and when you're reading. The only thing now left prior to certification is identifying and counting (with challenges) the "fifth pile" absentees.

Unless I missed something.

Michael (mbw) said...

@hill.tops

those withdrawn challenges are already back in the count, with F up 47.

BTW, you can pick up some Coleman action real cheap on Intrade now.

Nate- sorry for that off-topic excursion. Nice post re green infrastructure.

Nic said...

As a "latte-liberal" elite living in Seattle, Washington and member of the Sierra Club, I'm increasing worried about how the old guard of the Democratic party, the rust belt hicks, are shifting the stimulus package away from an environmentally responsible agenda. In all seriousness, I think Obama's doing a fine job if everyone's equally worried.

livemild said...

yippee! GO FRANKEN!

GET LOST COLEMAN, or you can wait around for those indictments

Opus 132 said...

"Minnesota Supremes Shoot Down Crucial Coleman Lawsuit, Making A Franken Win Nearly Certain

By Eric Kleefeld - December 24, 2008, 3:08PM

Norm Coleman just got a Christmas present from the Minnesota Supreme Court: A giant lump of coal.

In a unanimous decision handed down just now, the state Supremes denied Coleman any relief in a lawsuit he was waging to deal with allegations of double-counted absentee ballots, which his campaign says have given an illegitimate edge to Al Franken. The Coleman campaign was seeking to switch 25 selected precincts back to their Election Night totals, which would undo all of Franken's recount gains in those areas and put Coleman back in the lead.

The court, however, sided with the Franken camp's lawyers in saying that a question like this should be reserved for a post-recount election contest proceeding, as the proper forum to discover evidence -- and which also has a burden of proof that heavily favors the certified winner.

Simply put, Coleman is in very big trouble right now. With Al Franken leading by 47 votes, this lawsuit was Coleman's best shot at coming from behind. And it just failed, making a Franken win nearly a foregone conclusion when this recount finishes up in early January."

Opus 132 said...

"Minnesota Supremes Shoot Down Crucial Coleman Lawsuit, Making A Franken Win Nearly Certain

By Eric Kleefeld - December 24, 2008, 3:08PM

Norm Coleman just got a Christmas present from the Minnesota Supreme Court: A giant lump of coal.

In a unanimous decision handed down just now, the state Supremes denied Coleman any relief in a lawsuit he was waging to deal with allegations of double-counted absentee ballots, which his campaign says have given an illegitimate edge to Al Franken. The Coleman campaign was seeking to switch 25 selected precincts back to their Election Night totals, which would undo all of Franken's recount gains in those areas and put Coleman back in the lead.

The court, however, sided with the Franken camp's lawyers in saying that a question like this should be reserved for a post-recount election contest proceeding, as the proper forum to discover evidence -- and which also has a burden of proof that heavily favors the certified winner.

Simply put, Coleman is in very big trouble right now. With Al Franken leading by 47 votes, this lawsuit was Coleman's best shot at coming from behind. And it just failed, making a Franken win nearly a foregone conclusion when this recount finishes up in early January."

Davy said...

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggonit, MN elected me Senator

Left Coast Oracle said...

Or there's a good argument for encouraging hard working Amer-i-cuns to call themselves "environmentalist," or "feminists" for that matter.

michele-lee said...

I think I disagree with this post, Nate, more than just about anything you've written.

I think it's wholly appropriate to call people who are trying to do reasonable, mainstream things to fix the environment environmentalists (as well as the kooks).

Just as I think a critical point in the gay rights movement was when "gay" could no longer be associated exclusively with the flamboyantly over-the-top sorts, but also the couple who live down the street and worry about their kids' education.

We're in that transition with environmentalists (and possibly vegetarians as well). It has to happen if we're to curtail the worst projected damage of the already ongoing man-made global warming.

Michael said...

Edmond posted:

"I have a different take on the word "environmentalist". I care very much about the environment, even to the point of buying the most energy efficient upgrades to my house short of generating my own energy (ran out of money before I got to the solar panel thing... sorry, we're not all rich enough to save the world) but was told in no uncertain terms by a loacl `environmentalist' that I am NOT one, since I am a hunter, too. With that attitude, I don't want to be an environmentalist."

The person who told you that because you're a hunter, you can't be an environmentalist is an IGNORANT IDIOT. Don't let idiots define who and what you are. The foremost environmentalist in American history, as you know, was President Theodore Roosevelt, an avid hunter. You, too, are an environmentalist.

Opus 132 said...

@ Nate

It's a bit like using "feminists" when "women" would do.

(I haven't read the comments yet so I don't know if this has been addressed.)

Nate,this is so totally wrong that I can't believe it has your name on it.I'm a straight male and have been a proud feminist since before you were born.I'm taking this personally!

And while I'm at it,What is this "progressive" bullshit.I'm an ulta-liberal {far left),not a progressive (something even a Republican can be)!

Neil said...

Honestly, I'm glad someone is trying to make sure the emphasis is on sustainable infrastructure.

While "energy grids" are all well and good, spending on rail infrastructure - both local mass transit and high speed intercity lines - is what will pay long term dividends both for the environment and the economy. Plus, they'll stimulate the economy. More people will be employed this way, since road improvement won't cause people to buy more cars, but new rail lines do need new rolling stock.

cj_ said...

Like it or not, those words now carry very negative connotations. I'm not sure I buy into "reclaiming" words being an important thing to do. They are just words, they can have them IMO.

Brad said...

Nate, I'm starting to get a bit concerned about the content of your posts. It's becoming increasingly blatant in its bias and unrelated to what I thought 538 was about: political stats. You can diverge, of course, but I'd expect you to do so with a stronger argument or a more pertinent point.

"Environmentalist" isn't a bad word. Maybe it can have a negative connotation, but that's only when certain people are saying it with a certain tone. It is not inherently pejorative. I don't even buy the argument that it's become a de facto pejorative.

And when it's coming from WaPo, it's certainly not. This article does not seek to diminish the arguments of those pushing for green projects. Such a message is neither explicit nor implicit in the text.

You're a smart guy, Nate, and I appreciate what you do. But your material has been getting less accurate and less valuable for a few weeks now.

Opus 132 said...

@ cj

Once you accede to your opponent's redefining the word that describes you,you have lost the battle.

liforcerenewal said...

Just Like to comment the hunters should be the #1 environmentalists...to insure that there's something left to hunt. However, I say let the animals live and get rid of the haters...pack 'em up and send 'em to an island...like our trash supply!!!

KIC said...

Well, for anyone who is worried, we've had 21 months of seeing how Obama can stay On Message, despite 4 billion spit balls being lobbed on him at once. I do not expect this particular thing to change without good reason in his admistration as POTUS.

Second, you don't go putting the kind of folks in that he is, people like Steven Chu, unless you are serious as a heart attack about implementing alternative and "greener" energies. I recall having a conversation with someone some years ago (like five) who said it will take the government intervening big time to ever get past fossil fuels, just as it has with any big change. I think they know what they are doing, believe it or not. Not to say *some* things won't work, or will have to be modified, but I highly doubt this kind of thing is going to get Obama to bend willy nilly either way. He's sticking to his "story".

wv=psyment a psychic payment.

green libertarian said...

Coal is institutionalized mass murder, soup to nuts, but as the world demands CHEAP energy, so the burning,dying, and destruction of the environment, and humans, continues.

Didja see the story about the sludge pond in TN? Horrific.

If the environmental costs of coal-fired electrical generation were included in its price, coal would be FAR MORE expensive than solar, wind, and other alternative forms of energy production.

Fixing existing infrastructure is fine, building new roads and bridges is useless. Obama and the Congress' focus should be on developing green collar jobs, projects that can be done very soon, and energy EFFICIENCY.

There's already an alliance between labor and green technology, it's called the Apollo Alliance, and its recommendations should be give high priority.

http://apolloalliance.org/

Opus 132 said...

"Coal is institutionalized mass murder, soup to nuts, but as the world demands CHEAP energy, so the burning,dying, and destruction of the environment, and humans, continues."

Yep.

DCM in FL said...

comments were stuck at # 69 so Rick Warren told me to cure that evil problem...

TokyoTom said...

Nate, of course environmentalists are trying to affect the stimulus package; WaPo is right on that.

But you are fair to point out that they aren`t trying to "shift" the package, as they`ve been pushing for a green jobs package like that Obama actually ran on for some time now.

The wisdom of such a package is another matter. If we really want to see innovations in the grid and power marketing then we need more utility deregulation (so utilities can actually recover their investments), and o allow corporations to immediately write off new investments.

David said...

It is amazing how poor some people's reading comprehension is. Maybe if you take yourself out of outrage gear, you might be able to understand what Nate was saying.

If a group of women stand up for something, even if it isn't necessarily a "feminist" issue, some people deride them by calling them feminist instead of simply women.

Just like those same people use the word environmentalist in the same context.

Stop being so damn hypersensitive.

David said...

If we really want to see innovations in the grid and power marketing then we need more utility deregulation

Yeah, just what we need, another round of deregulation. *sarcasm*

Has any deregulation ever lead to anything positive? Forget that, has it ever lead to even neutral effects?

In my life span, 40 years, I don't think I have ever seen deregulation cause anything but damage.

Businessmen are a stupid and greedy lot, to the point they are rabid. Loosen the leash or let them off it, and destruction unfolds.

James W. Pharo said...

So Nate, what are you saying? That the people who write for things like the WaPo lack basic critical thinking skills?

I'd alert the media, but I'm afraid they'd just think it was some filthy blogger...

TokyoTom said...

Me:If we really want to see innovations in the grid and power marketing then we need more utility deregulation

David Has any deregulation ever lead to anything positive? Forget that, has it ever lead to even neutral effects? ...

Businessmen are a stupid and greedy lot, to the point they are rabid. Loosen the leash or let them off it, and destruction unfolds.

Better tell Google, GE and NRDC to can their plans for a "smart grid" that provides consumers with more information, choices and better prices for power, and greater decentralized power production:

http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2008-11-17-n20.html
http://www.fool.com/investing/high-growth/2008/09/22/google-swoops-on-the-smart-grid.aspx
http://www.newsweek.com/id/169165/output/print
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/technology/internet/28google.htm?_r=1

Louis V. Galdieri said...

For more on the "shovel-ready" rhetoric and the many stories it doesn't tell, check out:

http://lvgaldieri.blogspot.com/2008/12/enough-shovels.html

Gene said...

I agree that environmentally positive projects should be pursued exhaustively, but, to spend $5-700 Billion over the next two years will take a lot more than we are ready and/or able to do in such projects. Also, our bridge and highway infrastructure is badly deteriorated and much in need of repair. More important:- repair of roads and bridges will use resources from the construction trades who have been idled by the current housing finance crisis, and our economy needs the stimulus badly.

TokyoTom said...

Louis, thanks for your link, which shows some of the dangers of central planning; thoughtful, well-intended planners often create problems.

Larry Lessig also has a column out arguing for LESS regulation here: http://www.newsweek.com/id/176809

allencmcbride said...

David, what would an example be of an all-female advocacy group that someone might want to unfairly label as "feminist"? Are these groups that exclude men, that can't get any men to join, or that are so small that they're all-female by chance?

David said...

Holy poor reading comprehension Batman!

A group of women are not necessarily feminists. Yet, morons like Rush or Billo will use that term to denigrate them and try to marginalize them.

It is not that difficult to understand.

allencmcbride said...

I think I understood what you were saying, David. Did you understand the question I asked?

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