12.06.2008

Minnesota May Be Heading Toward Resolution -- In Court

Although the state of Minnesota has completed the first stage of its recount process, counting by hand each of more than 2.9 million ballots cast in the state's November 4 senatorial election, we are really no closer to knowing who the winner might be.

The quasi-official count provided by the Star Tribune shows Norm Coleman 192 votes ahead. This count, however, is not very useful. This is because it treats challenged ballots as nonvotes, essentially giving the benefit of the doubt to the challenger, when in fact the vast majority of challenges are liable to be rejected.

An alternative would be to add back in the number of challenged ballots made by the opponent to each candidate's vote total. As Norm Coleman has made more challenges than Al Franken, this would reduce Franken's deficit to 97 ballots. This measure too, however, suffers from a significant flaw. Namely, not all types of ballot challenges operate equally on an opponent's total; some types of challenges result in a deduction to the opponent's count, while others do not. Without having information on the types of challenges issued by either campaign, this measure too is ambiguous.

A third alternative is presented by the Franken campaign itself. This method assumes that all challenges will be rejected, and that the initial ruling of the local elections judge will prevail. Under this accounting, the Franken campaign claims to lead by the grand total of 4 ballots. In theory, this is the best way to do things; the vast majority of challenges almost certianly will be rejected by the Canvassing Board, and so to give the benefit of the doubt to the challenger -- as the Star Tribune count does -- does not make a lot of sense. Of course, it requires us to take the Franken campaign at its word, as it relies on information gathered by the campaign that is not available to the general public.

We have also, at various times, released the results of an inferential statistical model, which is described in some detail here and here. Various iterations of this model now project a net gain by Franken of somewhere between 132 and 227 ballots once challenged ballots have been processed. Given his initial deficit of 215 ballots, this implies that he'd finish somewhere between 83 ballots behind Norm Coleman and 12 ballots ahead of him:



On average, the various versions of model show Al Franken finishing 34 ballots behind Norm Coleman. However, the margins of error on the model are high -- at least +/-200 ballots -- and so they do not equate to much of an advantage for Coleman, perhaps implying that he is a 60/40 favorite to prevail once the challenged ballot process is complete.

None of these various estimates, however, account for two significant X-factors, one of which could potentially work to Coleman's benefit and the other to Franken's. The first X-factor is the disposition of ballots in Minneapolis's 3rd Ward, 1st Precinct, where 133 ballots have gone missing. As the votes in this precinct heavily favored Franken on November 4th, they would have a deleterious effect on Franken's total if not counted, harming him by a net of 46 votes. Minneapolis, however, is still looking for these ballots. In addition, even if the ballots are not found, the state could make a decision to accept the original results from this precinct -- or Franken could sue to try and motivate that result.

The second X-factor is rejected absentee ballots, which the Franken campaign has been trying to get counted. Although most rejected absentee ballots were discarded for perfectly valid reasons, some minority of them -- estimated at between 500 and 1,000 ballots by Secretary of State Mark Ritchie -- were rejected in error. These ballots have essentially never been counted, either during the initial count nor during the recount. The state has instructed local officials to sort through their absentee ballots, and identify those ballots that may have been rejected improperly, a potential first step to having such ballots counted. If such ballots are counted, they are likely to result in a net gain of 25 to 100 votes for Franken.

As you have probably inferred, if the current standing of the recount is Coleman +34 (as estimated by our statistical models), or Franken +4 (as estimated by the Franken campaign), then a swing of 46 ballots in Coleman's favor from Ward 3, or 25-100 ballots in Franken's favor from the rejected absentees, could quite easily be decisive.

The good news for the Franken campaign is they are arguing in each case for more rather than fewer ballots to be counted, a stance which is probably superior from a public perception standpoint. It is hard to make a compelling case, for instance, that Franken should be punished because Minneapolis misplaced some of their ballots, or that he should be punished because some absentee ballots were rejected erroneously and never counted in the first place.

Winning the battle of public perception, however, may not necessarily equate with winning such balltles in court. It is quite likely that if either the Ward 3 ballots or the absentees would alter the outcome of the election once all challenged ballots have been considered, the losing side will sue to seek the opposite outcome.

It is even possible that the US Senate itself will get involved, as under the Constitution, the Senate ultimately serves as judge and jury on adjudicating electoral disputes before its chamber. If, for instance, the state certifies Coleman as the winner by 20 votes, but the missing ballots from Ward 3 have not been counted, the Senate could decide to seat Franken -- or, as happened in the 1974 Senate Race in New Hampshire, to order a re-vote.

Minnesota's recount is a long way from over. If you put a gun to my head and asked me to predict the winner, I would tell you to shoot me.

96 comments

zander said...

Thank you for the constant analysis of this race. I am living in Minnesota pulling for Franken and would go crazy if I had only what the regular new sources are giving me.

Anne U. said...

Oh, Nate. You have so much to live for.

Zev said...

It would seem that at this point the most fair, transparent and inexpensive way of deciding the election would be to toss a coin. I would imagine that any time 3 million ballots are counted there is some possibility of error--no process is perfect. I would also imagine (though I could no compute it) that the margin of victory will fall within this MOE.
Flip a coin. It won't be any more arbitrary than the recount process (court battles and all).

Lone said...

We should have just flipped the coin BEFORE spending all this money. Whats another few thousand dollars that could be put to better use?

Simon said...

Nate, you're missing a "Be" in the title there, as in, "Minnesota May Be Headings Towards a Recount..."

Either way keep up the good work and stuff...

Edmund said...

Single-preference voting. It rocks.

Zev said...

Lone,

Court battles require more than a few thousand dollars.

Simon said...

It's incredibly annoying when you try to correct someone's typo/ommission and then you make one yourself. I do it all the time too. Disregard the 's' at the end of "Heading" in my last post.

wv: ingrate

Simon said...

Yeah ok so I made another mistake in the original post, which I now wish I hadn't made. Switch "Recount" for "Resolution", because obviously they're already in a recount. I'm just gonna stop posting now and go drink some coffee.

Zev said...

There have been 2.4 million votes cast, not 3 million, and the difference thus far is 0.03%.

If there are those who believe that randomness is not democratic I might point them to Athens, which had appointments by lot. There has been both theoretical and quantitative studies showing that this process is inherently fair. (Bernard Manin spends considerable time in his book "The Principles of Representative Government" supporting the legitimacy of appointment by lottery.)

Khalil said...

I think it would be better to just have a runoff election with the top two candidates. Controversial events such as the loss of 133 ballots in a pro-Franken area [benefiting Coleman] and the counting of disputed ballots [which usually benefits the Democrat, in this case Franken] give grounds for lawsuits.

If the final margin is 4 votes, then there's no way either side could claim undisputed victory. Given the thousands of ballot challenges to be resolved, if the final margin is less than 10 votes, either candidate could file a lawsuit claiming the election was stolen from them by picking an event that cost them votes.

Ian Monroe said...

A new election would be quite meaningful given that there was such a strong third party.

Yaramah Z said...

Love the last line Nate.

I somehow doubt the senate would get involved. Too political and would hardly bring about a new era of bipartisanship which Obama wants.

Cugel said...

If Coleman is declared the winner because 134 ballots were lost, then the Senate SHOULD order a re-vote.

I can't imagine them just seating Franken however. That's what the Republicans would do of course, if the situation were reversed and THEY had control of the Senate, but they're ALLOWED by the media to be ruthless bastards and Democrats suddenly are acting in a shockingly "partisan" manner if they tried to do anything 1 millionth as bad as what Republicans did in Florida 2000.

Can you imagine the endless howling and vows of total revenge if Democrats simply blocked a re-count, refused to count 50,000 Coleman votes, and just declared Franken the winner? We'd never hear the end of it! They'd be attacking Democrats for generations for "undermining our Democracy."

The talk radio assholes' heads would explode.

In short the media rules are stacked decisively AGAINST Democrats and they are a bunch of whining flabby weaklings anyway. They won't dare to just seat Franken no matter how good his case is.

Rather they'll at most order a re-vote, or at least they'll grumble and express their feeble "dismay" while Coleman struts down the isle and Republicans laugh at them behind their hands.

In a cynical mood I'd say the latter, in a more positive mood I'd say the former.

But, the chances of them just declaring Franken the winner, regardless of what happens, are nil. Reid and those other motherless wafflers haven't got the guts to do that! Haven't we watched them enough over the last 2 years to realize that if you put any pressure on them from the right they instantly fold?

Poker Pundit said...

I hope whoever "you" is doesn't include Mr Ziegler...

MNLatteLiberal said...

@Zev re: 2.4 million, not 2.9 million votes cast statement:

That discounts all those Barkley et al votes. There are in fact 2.9 votes cast.

@Nate et al,

SOS Ritchie is on the record saying that the 133 missing ballots will count, as there is precedent for that sort of thing already in MN. He said that yesterday at 11 AM on Minnesota Public Radio.

~Latte

CH Truth said...

Although most rejected absentee ballots were discarded for perfectly valid reasons, some minority of them -- estimated at between 500 and 1,000 ballots by Secretary of State Mark Ritchie -- were rejected in error. These ballots have essentially never been counted, neither during the initial count nor during the recount. The state has instructed local officials to sort through their absentee ballots, and identify those ballots that may have been rejected improperly, a potential first step to having such ballots counted. If such ballots are counted, they are likely to result in a net gain of 25 to 100 votes for Franken.

Wow... where to start.

First, the Secretary of State was blowing smoke when he suggested that 1000 out 12000 rejected ballots would have been rejected in error. Hell, if that is the way he runs election in Minnesota (with nearly 10% of all rejected absentee ballots done so in error) then he need to go. Additionally the Strib went into about 1/2 of Minnesota's counties and looked for ballots that would go into the "fifth" pile and they found less than 2 per county were rejected. Not 2% or 2 per 100, but 2 whole ballots. They found like 83 in 57 counties.

Last I heard, even the Franken camp had sort of moved away from the 500-1000 number. Something in the 200-300 range may be the top side for all of this.

Secondly... There is no evidence that Al Franken had any sort of significant advantage in Absentee voting. While most people believe that there were more Democrats voting early than usual, there is no exit polling or anything to suggest that Franken did any better in the absentee voting than he did on election day.

There was one poll cited where it showed that people who "already voted" favored Franken, but that poll also showed Franken with a 5 point overall lead. I believe the "already voted" group went about 3% better (47-39) for Franken than the final result number (45-40).

Also, since absentee ballots are sealed before they are rejected the people cannot be predisposed to rejecting anyone's ballot for any particular reason.

But... let's give Nate the benefit of the doubt and say that Franken "did" have a 47-39 advantage in absentee voting. What that would mean is that for every 100 rejected ballots counted, Franken would add 47, Coleman 39, and others would garner 14. That would mean Franken would gain 8 votes per 100.

To get to the 100 vote Franken pick up, they would need to find 1250 erroneously rejected absentee ballots.

Now... on the flip side, it would be more prudent to suggest that if Franken had any sort of absentee ballot advantage it would be closer to a 2 or 3 point advantage (based on the 5% difference between the poll and the final results)... which would mean that Franken would only pick up 2-3 votes per 100 found.

So... 200-300 ballots could mean a swing between 4 and 9 votes for Franken... all things being statistically equal.

Michael (mbw) said...

Just to reinforce what Latte said:

Although we don't know who won, or how the new absentee votes might tilt, or whether Franken's count is accurate, etc, we should have no ambiguity about the 133 votes. Those folks signed in. Their votes were counted on election night by machines that seem to have been working without errors. The ballots were placed in an envelope marked "1 of 5". "2 of 5" through "5 of 5" were where they should be, but "1 of 5" was missing.

There is no doubt as a matter of fact or of MN law and precedent that they should be counted as the machine found. The only significant question is whether they were inadvertently mislaid or deliberately stolen.

I think the latter is more probable because (in part)

1. This Dinkytown precinct had already been in the news for semi-successful efforts to keep over a hundred students from a liberal cooperative from voting.

2. When the shortfall was discovered they came up with a baloney explanation while ignoring the initial sign-in count.

3. Several posters (including one who called himself "Dink" and seemed familiar with details of the precinct) on this site were ready with talking points about how there were no missing ballots and anyway the voters in Dinkytown weren't really qualified. I think that speaks to the state of mind of the likely perps.

4. The Coleman campaign has taken the amazing position that the votes did not exist.

None of that is conclusive as on the question of felony vs. accident, but there should be no confusion that the votes existed and their count is known.

David Tate said...

As Zev and Khalil have already hinted, the correct conclusion at this point is "it was a tie". There's a close correlation here to the ongoing battle over how the census should be conducted -- statistical estimates, or "exact count"? People really, really don't want to accept the idea that an exact count is not one of the available options.

In this case, Franken and Coleman have tied, to the level of precision supported by the original ballot process. No amount of recounting is going to increase the precision of the estimated vote totals by enough to specify who won, for sure. A runoff is probably the most equitable course at this point.

wv: resset -- what needs to happen to this particular contest

Dave said...

Question:

I think Politico reported that Franken claims to be 4 votes ahead even WITHOUT the 133 ballots at Ward 3. Is that accurate, or does the 4 vote lead actually assume that those ballots will be found? Anybody know?

Michael (mbw) said...

@Dave- Yes, The STrib made it very clear that the +4 assumes that the 133 ballots will be counted, whether or not they are found. So there's not another +46 about to be added in.
Politico, like CNN and almost all the non-Nate media, seems incapable of giving quantitative information in an unambiguous and accurate manner.

tkk13above said...

I'm glad I read before writing, because David Tate said exactly what I was thinking. There is no other interpretation than it is a tie.

If either one is seated, the other side will be furious. As a democrat, I'd feel a bit uneasy if Franken were seated, too (though likewise pissed if Coleman were seated). If I were the Senate I would demand a re-vote or runoff.

M. Joseph Goodfriend said...

Can we please just once have Minnesota recount diary without jokes about a coin flip in the comments? IT'S BEEN DONE. YOU ARE NOT CLEVER.

Dave said...

I suppose a runoff might be the fairest outcome. But Franken would never win a runoff. Without Obama's coattails, I don't see how he would really stand a chance.

Anyone feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

Pragmatus said...

So why does the Minnesota Secretary of State's office show Coleman leading by 600+ votes?

http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/SenateRecount.asp

I admit when I check the SoS site a couple days ago, Franken was leading by about 1,000 votes. Where in the world are they getting their figures?

David said...

Minnesota needs a law similar to Georgia: no one gets over 50%, the top 2 go to a runoff election.

It would save a lot of money, time, and ease the political fighting.

Pragmatus said...

Dave:

"Fair" has nothing to do with it. If "fair" were the standard Al Gore would be the outgoing president today. If the vote is essentially a tie, which it apparently is, let the Democrats in the Senate decide whom to seat. Will this cause the GOP to cry foul and weep and gnash its teeth? Without a doubt, but they would have done so anyway, over some other topic.

Dave said...

Pragmatus--

Don't get me wrong, I hope Franken gets the seat.

Pragmatus said...

Dave:

Oh no, I understood you. Didn't mean to sound argumentative, it's just that sometimes you need to cut to the chase and ignore the caterwauling, which I think it what the Democrats should do if this decision is thrown onto the Senate.

Michael (mbw) said...

@CH Truth-

Got a link for that STrib count of rejected absentees?

Andy JS said...

It's too close. Hold another election.

PorridgeGun said...

A few things...


You flip a coin to determine who breaks in a game of pool, not who wins an election. It's utterly ridiculous.


I reckon Franken won this race. The Coleman campaign have been a little too shifty in the last few weeks.


Senate Democrats better side with Franken. And if it goes to a re-vote or run-off, the Dem leadership, including Obama, should throw everything they've got behind their candidate. Fair enough Georgia was always an uphill struggle, but Minnsota is a blue state, and Franken is trying to take back Paul Wellstone's seat. There's no excuse for not getting behind Franken.

Rightwingsnarkle said...

The Senated dicked around with the Wyman/Durkin dabacle (NH 1974 race cited) before tossing it back to the state and a new election.

Wyman (R) won the initial vote by 200, while Durkin (D) carried the recount by 50, IIRC.

Durkin won the revote handily, then lost his re-election bid, I think against uber-wingnut nutjob Gordon Humphrey.

But, yeah, I favor the senate dems saying "Sit on it" and swearing in Al Franken. But uber-pussies Reid, Durbin, et al won't do that.

David said...

"I can't imagine them just seating Franken however. That's what the Republicans would do of course, if the situation were reversed and THEY had control of the Senate, but they're ALLOWED by the media to be ruthless bastards and Democrats suddenly are acting in a shockingly "partisan" manner if they tried to do anything 1 millionth as bad as what Republicans did in Florida 2000."

"In short the media rules are stacked decisively AGAINST Democrats and they are a bunch of whining flabby weaklings anyway."

Sir, do you realize the irony of posting this in relation to AL FRANKEN? One of the most ruthless, whiny, spiteful media sleazebags in existence?

just_looking said...

The StarTribune found 84 fifth-pile ballots in 39 counties excluding Hennipen. If they are accurate, 200 to 300 total sounds about right.

fred said...

I am for a re-vote, but I guess MN law does not provide for it. This is clearly a toss up.

Ken said...

Zev wrote: "If there are those who believe that randomness is not democratic I might point them to Athens, which had appointments by lot."

At times, I have mused that this might be a better world if we chose the Congress by lot, and if everyone looked forward to serving there with the same joy that they receive a summons to jury duty.

John K said...

>>So why does the Minnesota Secretary of State's office show Coleman leading by 600+ votes?
http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/SenateRecount.asp

A darned good question! If you look at the Strib's county by county numbers (http://ww2.startribune.com/news/metro/elections/returns/2008/recount/msenco.html) the totals are different (I extracted them into Excel).

SoS Coleman: 1,208,344
STrib Coleman: 1,208,905

SoS Franken: 1,207,657
STrib Franken: 1,208,667

The Strib difference is 238.
The SoS difference is 687.

Again, using my 'assume all challenges are bogus' (not the case, but a base form which to begin), Franken picked up 72 votes during the recount. Having started down 215, that puts him 143 behind. And then there's those missing ballots.

Fun stuff....

green libertarian said...

Actually MN law calls for a coin toss decision in the event of a perfect tie. Any count with a vote difference of less than 50 votes is, in fact, a statistical tie. But if an actual tie is decided by the Canvassing Board, or MN Supremes, a coin toss is called for by law.

It appears that when all options are legally included, Franken will win by a handful of votes. In that case, I predict the MN Supremes, or if not them, the US Senate per precedent, will order a run-off election. Assuming no dead boys nor live women (or something like that) are found in Franken's bed, he'll win 51-49.
-taconite12

just_looking said...

John K and Pragmatus,

Coleman leads in the SoS toals by 687 because they have not included any votes from the precint with the missing ballots. Franken won on election day 1090-595, a difference of 495. 687-495 = 192, the STrib figure.

The STrib county-by-county results include the missing precent except for the missing ballots which Franken won 80-34, a differnce of 46. 192+46 = 238.

phil said...

I predict the MN Supremes, or if not them, the US Senate per precedent, will order a run-off election.

Now you're just making shit up.

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

If Nate cannot find enough data to give an estimate, I find it fascinating that any particular prediction to be found on the BLOG will be anything more than a SWAG.

It is fun to talk about possibilities, but that is all it is right now.

green libertarian said...

What is your major malfunction, Phil?

How am I just making shit up?

In the case of extremely close elections in the past, the Senate has ordered a run-off election. The MN Supremes (minus the two members on the Canvassing Board) may very well order a run-off election, seeing it as the inevitable outcome. The majority Dem US Senate can't withstand a fillibuster on the issue, and the Republicans would go along with run-off election, even tho they know Coleman is likely to lose 49-51, it's still obviously the right thing to do.

John K said...

>>because they have not included any votes from the precinct with the missing ballots.

That sorta makes sense. I take it the precinct is in Hennepin county? That's the county with the difference, as I just found out. The SoS has a downloadable spreadsheet and because I am a relational database whiz, I was able to get the delta on the two.

In Hennepin county, the SoS has 561 less votes for Coleman and 1010 less votes for Franken. Take the difference and voila! The numbers actually match!

Now MY numbers match, but you've got a different set (1090 and 595), so I'm not sure which is which. Still damned close.

just_looking said...

John K,

Both the SoS and STrib's county-by-county results leave out Envelope 1's ballots from District 59B, Ward 3, Precinct 1 which went 80-34 Franken on election day.

561+34=590. 101+80=1090.

Pragmatus said...

just_looking:

Wow, thanks! I'm impressed. Now it's all clear, all but the outcome that is...

I doubt that the MN Supreme Court has the authority to order a runoff. I think their job is restricted to kicking the controversy up the road, i.e. to the US Senate. The Constitution and Federal Law trumps state law here. States' Rights, as a governing influence, is pretty much dead.

nikip5555 said...

Re the 133 missing votes: Determine the "machine count" for the ballots in hand - by running them through the machine again if necessary. Subtract these results from the "machine count" from election night; the result is the "machine count" for the missing ballots. This may not be perfect due to scanner error, but if scanner errors are randomly distributed, the results should be very close to the original - or at least, there is no way to get any closer. Now recount the ballots on hand per regular process; add these results to the "machine count" for the missing ballots to get the final results for the precinct.

KWRegan said...

Looks like Nate's regressions have pronounced me wrong about a tangible Franken gain in the recount's last hours, even accounting that he did include the 133 ballots. If there had been, his best # for Al should have been Franken +50 not Franken +12. And the average of the 8 models would have been between 10 and 20 not 30 and 40. I did get the Coleman tops mostly right (one at 83 poked above my 75, another 65, but the 3rd-highest only 34), but overall the models' values were bunched more than I expected. I will still trust Franken's "+4" as being report not contention, and expect him to net 10-20 more from the challenges.

WV "docidise": to make docile.

Michael (mbw) said...

@KWR- I think you posted it before, but could you go over your argument for expecting an F gain of 10-20 (starting at +4) in the challenge phase? Does it assume that there's some reason to expect that the Board will accept more ballots than the local judges?

mediapost said...

Hi Everyone,

For what it's worth...

I've gone through 2220 ballots, a third of the challenges. I'm looking for challenges made to undervotes (votes not for your opponent). Here's what I saw:

132 Franken challenges to undervotes, 92 Coleman challenges to undervotes. 132 - 92 = 40 * 3 = 120. Assuming the next 2/3 of the challenges break out in similar fashion Al should pick up 120 votes and just squeak by with a win in the low 20s.

One note on the challenges. In the case of 2 filled ovals with one marked with an X, most counties (I'd say 75% of the time) are counting that as a vote for the non-X oval. This certainly seems to make the most sense to me. The canvassing board is going to have to choose one method, my guess would be they go with the majority of counties. If they do, this bodes well for Al since it looks like he wins more of these types of ballots than Coleman.

PS I also looked at how many balots were deemed votes by the local officials but would not have been been picked up by the machines on election day (a check mark off to the side, 2 ovals filled with one Xed out etc.) I found 84 for Franken vs. 50 for Coleman. 84 - 50 = 34 * 3 = 102. A 5 vote margin for Al. This is a little more unreliable than the first count because it's hard to determine sometimes if the machine would have picked up a vote or not, however, the 2 numbers are pretty close, as one would predict they should be. All this is making me a little more optimistic for Al.

Michael (mbw) said...

@mediapost

Essentially what you're doing is estimating what the judges' count would have been without challenges. You get around F +20. The statistical error bars in the extrapolation are about 2*sqrt(224)= 30. So this suggests that the Franken value of +4 may indeed be correct.

Unlike KWR, I have argued that the error bars around this are pretty symmetrical, leaving the race very much a tossup.

mediapost said...

Exactly, I want to believe what the Franken camp is saying, and I think their method of predicting where we stand is the only sane approach, however, as someone once said, "Trust, but verify". Afterall, they are politicians. It's interesting what they say about being confident that some of their challenges will hold up. I think they are talking in particular about the 2 ovals with one Xed out scenario. I also kept a tally of challenges that I thought would win, it ended up Franken 20, Coleman 11. So, plus 27 if that rate held up.

Hugh said...

"If you put a gun to my head and asked me to predict the winner, I would tell you to shoot me."

My detailed statistical analysis reveals that the odds on this choice are not good, and approach zero.

ecarlson said...

There have been several suggestions that there be a revote. Why? Why not just follow the law? Count all the ballots by hand, and give the winner the prize.

Everyone agrees that the result is likely to be within the statistical margin of error. But this is not an argument for changing the law. A revote would only be appropriate if there was such a massive screw up that it is no longer possible to figure out how to apply the law.

cryspers - Breakfast cereal served to the loser in a close election.

ecarlson said...

Oh - I forgot to mention. Several have suggested that if MN were GA, this would be over now. That is far from clear. There would have been a revote, and then you start counting those revotes, and if THOSE are close, you hand count them. We'd be where we are now in early January, with no end in sight.

In contrast, if GA had the same rules as MN, they would have been done on Nov. 4. GA had to do a revote, even though it wasn't close.

just_looking said...

It is within the law (Article 1, Section 5 of the Constitution) to have (or not have) a revote.

Andy said...

No no no. We should NOT be asking for re-vote. They're unpredictable, of course, but I'd say pretty confidently that Franken would have a BIG hill to climb to win a revote. He obviously would not have the presidential election turnout machine behind him, and as we've seen in the run-offs since E-day, that hurts a lot. I bet Coleman wins a re-vote by 5-6 points. Our best bet is for a) a Franken recount win by 50+ votes (seems unlikely) or b) a Senate intervention that seats Franken, followed by 6 years of exemplary service by Al, during which pissed off Minnesotans forget about it all.

Michael (mbw) said...

@Andy- What's wrong with a win of say 20 votes? Do you think that the 46 will then be swiped by the Board or the courts, requiring Senate intervention?

I agree that any D's asking for a revote are out of it.

Andy said...

Michael: I'm picking 50 out of thin air. There is a line somewhere over which a lawsuit by the losing side would be more an academic exercise and not have a lot of support among the great weakly partisan middle. And more importantly, will not inspire a court to declare a revote.

Richard said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Michael (mbw) said...

Andy- How bad is the MN Supreme Court? They're all R, but are they willing to order a revote if the Board holds that Franken has narrowly won, using fair and consistent criteria? Sounds like you're saying yes.

David Tate said...

@ecarlson: It is very unlikely that a revote would come out anywhere near as close. It would resolve the question of "who won" cleanly.

@Andy (et al): My comments were directed at resolving the question fairly, not ensuring that one particular candidate wins. If Franken can't muster enough votes to be competitive in a revote, how exactly does he deserve to win?

wv: iment -- as opposed to what I said

KWRegan said...

@mediapost: Great work, and firstoff, it's good evidence that the Franken campaign's "under 50", "22", "10", and now "4" have been objectively-verifiable, truthful reporting. Before I go any further into numbers, let me note/ask 3 things about Nate's model:

1. I note that the SOS's official precinct data spreadsheet simply does not include a line for Hennepin/MPLS/W3-P01. Now whether or not Nate inserted a row and hand-entered its Nov. 4 data should not matter, because his model isn't looking at the cumulative vote figures. It's just estimating overall gains in the recount from precinct-by-precinct data, and comparing that against the pre-recount margin of 215. Still, it's worth asking whether he did.

2. Did the input data reflect the 633 resp. 650 individual ballot challenges the campaigns say they're removing? This might require painstaking hand-modifying of the SoS spreadsheet, and unlike 1. it might make a difference. Does it?

3. Now that mediapost has vetted Franken's "X", can it easily be included as a constraint in the regression? If so, does it make a difference? Nate's original description doesn't seem to include variables for the individual challenge types. Coding in the constraint might require doing so, and as MBW (if I recall) pointed out in the other thread, this allocated (at least) 2 more unknowns but only buys you 1 equation. Still, this definitely strikes me as worth doing---moreover, one can see which value of "X" comes closest to matching the values reported in this post, which pay no heed to Franken's reporting.

As for why Franken stands to gain in the challenge-resolution phase, compared to what happens if all challenges are denied: If you do my simplification here, you get an expectation for his gain of the form 100(b - a), where b is the likelihood of one of Franken's 100 excess undervote challenges succeeding, and a is the chance for one of Coleman's 100 excess vote-challenges denying Al a mark. Nate pegged a at 'under 5%, probably more like 1-2%' even before the frivolity escalated, whereas he guesstimated b between 10% and 20%. Using the higher figures makes a gain of 15; using the lower makes 9. At the time I thought the "100" was 144, so I said "10-20". BTW, my simple estimates N_C = 400, N_F = 500 become more like N_C = 250, N_F = 350 on projecting from mediapost's data (a little conservatively since the ballots shown are "early" while there was more frivolity later), but only the difference matters. If I get time I'll re-work this from the actual #s, but while yesterday was my "play day" today is not, and I have a gun to my head from other matters (8->).

Pragmatus said...

A revote would accrue to Coleman's benefit. Remember all the third-party voters went for a more conservative candidate than Coleman, and thus would be much likelier to switch their votes to Coleman than to Franken.

Regardless of the outcome of the canvass board, a lawsuit will be filed, but again, the MN courts will be powerless to interfere since the US Constitution stipulates that in the event of an uncertain outcome in an election for US Senator, the US Senate is the party designated to determine whom to seat or whether or not to hold a revote.

Michael (mbw) said...

@Pragmatus- Actually, the one poll that asked found that Franken beat Coleman significantly as the second choice of Barkley voters. Barkley's position on some simple spectrum was unclear and not very relevant. The reason that Franken would do poorly in a revote is not the Barkley voters but rather that he picked up a lot of votes from people who often don't turn out for smaller elections. Also, Coleman has succeeded in spinning the story that all this ruckus is Franken's fault, not that it's just what happens when an election is close enough to require a more accurate count than the machines provide.

Michael (mbw) said...

Back to stats:

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems Nate's regression analysis is almost useless. It attempts to leverage some data from those precincts with very few challenges (and also very few changes) into inferences about the high-challenge precincts. That sounds extremely shaky. The formal fitting confirms that- the formal error bars due to uncertainty in the regression coefficients far exceeds the range of outcomes we consider likely. Therefore the regression analysis is useless for this problem.

If we assume we know the judges' count correctly (F+4) then we are left only with the "a,b" coefficients as significant unknown parameters. These specifically refer to mean differences between the Board and the judges. Since the Board has not made a single call yet, all information on that consists in our prior probabilities, essentially our hunches in looking at ballots and guessing which one the Board might call differently.

So the best starting points are the posts of mediamatters, KWR, etc., not the regression analysis. Any chance mediamatters can run through the remaining ballots to:
1. Confirm from an independent source what the net judges' margin was?
2. Improve our guesses a little about the (a,b) coefficients?

Michael (mbw) said...

Whoops, that's mediapost, not mediamatters. And just to emphasize- by far the most important piece of data is the current judges' count. Franken says +4. Mediapost says something like 20, +/- 30 from extrapolation. Getting mediapost's full number from all the challenges (no extrapolation error bars) could really help.

ecarlson said...

I agree that Coleman would win a revote, handily enough that a recount would not be necessary.

My point is that if you advocate for a revote, you'd better specify under what conditions a revote is called for. Let's take a simple example. Suppose you say, "do a revote whenever no candidate gets 50%." My claim is that such a rule will create AT LEAST as many problems and confusion as the current system.

For example, let's say Franken wins this round, and does a decent job as Senator. Six years from now, on Nov. 4, Franken gets 50% minus 200, Coleman gets 37%, third party gets the balance. Franken says "I bet I already have 50%" and demands a hand count. It goes to court - Franken wins - they count the vote, and Franken is still down by 10. Franken goes to court again, claiming left-handed absentee ballots were improperly rejected - this time he loses, and a revote is called.

The republican turnout is bigger in the revote, and the numbers are Franken 50%+100 votes, Coleman 50%-100 votes. Coleman demands a recount. Minnesotans, suffering from global warming and exceptional July temperatures (it's now mid-2015) lynch both candidates, and all the lawyers, secede from the union, and declare themselves a dictatorship, or ANYTHING as long as they don't have to have more recounts.

Personally, I think this recount is going exceptionally well. 133 votes were lost, but they might be found and can be compensated for almost perfectly (partly because someone had the foresight to number the envelopes). Some small issues remain. It isn't clear to me how well the challenged ballots will be handled, but eventually they will be resolved, probably by the canvassing board. If the numbers favor Coleman, the Democrats in the Senate won't steal it from him, and if Franken is favored, the Republicans won't filibuster. The majority Democrats won't call for a revote in any case, probably even if there's an exact tie.

buragg - Neither candidate will be able to buragg that they have a clear mandate.

MNLatteLiberal said...

mbw, you beat me to the answer :). I take a morning off to be productive and miss all this fun!

I had the same thought as you, Michael, but then thought that perhaps Pragmatus was referring to the 4th and 5th party candidates:

Libertarian ALDRICH 13,916
Constitution NIEMACKL 8,905
(from the SOS page) combine for almost 23,000 right wing votes.
I've seen a handful of ballots featuring this duo (one at a time, of course), and those were the Palin/Bachmann straight R ticket folks in my county.

Regarding all the sadistical analysis by Nate and KWR, at the risk of sounding flippant and non-rigorous, I have to come to believe that there are way too many spikes/singularities in this recount/election to be able to smoothly integrate over the continuum.

The most pivotal events in the recount have been just those kind of singularities: (1) Eagle machine ballots in St. Louis Co, (2) Maplewood ballots, (3) missing 133 ballots in Dinkytown (though those do not influence the count, the event is such a singularity anyway), (4) the latest 10/12/20 ballot (the actual number varies with by the source) find Friday in the warehouse. I am sure there is at least one more I am missing right now.

All these events dwarf any kind of gain/loss prediction closed mathematical models extrapolate
using statistical methods. It's been quite a few years since I last studied math, so my terminology might be way off, but I hope the gist of what I am saying is understandable.

IMHO using the freq. of undervote analysis over the 6655 (less 633+650) 215 initial delta (or the current 97 diff) with the proviso that barring any extraneous events this is how the system behaves is almost meaningless because as the last week alone has shown something IS likely to occur to through another wrench into the initial conditions and/or assumptions.

So what you get is that on top of a predictor with the error bars of 200, is superimposed a more-likely-than-not probability of some fluke
happening in the span that the Board reviews the challenges. And I am not talking just about the 5th pile. I am talking about, for example, the officials and the campaigns searching the warehouse, then the church, then wherever and finding something unexpected, which by now we ought to expect.

It's like mice extrapolating their daily cheese take two months out, and not knowing that the homeowner just got a new cat.

That is my fatalistic take on the day. Oh, and Franken still wins! :)
~ Latte

MNLatteLiberal said...

Another one for the FWIW files
The current Strib Ballot Challenge now boasts a library of 2625 ballots, which represents about 40% of the total. Yes, the 633+650=1288 challenges have been withdrawn, and it is tempting to go for the halvsies (2625/5367), but imho that's wrong - some of the challenges we've all been looking at will have been pulled, and pulled, I bet, fairly proportionally.

In any case, if you buy the 10 billion flies can't be wrong argument, the overall online Strib voting population has Franken winning this thing right now by 226 with what Strib estimates give or take 88 MOE:

http://senaterecount.startribune.com/

Like I said, FWIW
~ Latte

polls_apart said...

@Michael (mbw):
If Coleman has been able to spin that "all this ruckus is Franken's fault" then all Franken needs to say is, "Can anyone imagine Coleman trailing the initial count by 215 votes and conceding the election?"
If Franken can't make a simple argument like this stick, then perhaps he deserves to lose (although I hope not).

wv: ouslyr: poll result lacking in credibility.

Bernard said...

I'm with the coin flippers. All this counting and suing and recounting is an expensive joke.

It's a tie. Flip a coin and be done with it.

MNLatteLiberal said...

Bernard,
I am sorry, but I just don't get it. I mean, I understand people saying that sort of thing in the Strib commentary, but one would think this is a bit of a more thoughtful forum... Guess one would think wrong.

Could you please explain to me how this would save you (or someone close to you) money at this point? The counting is mandated by law. If you wanted to avoid the recount, the only way then is to sue. And lose. Costing even more money.

At this point courts look inevitable. But how is that going to cost you money? One campaign or the other is going to sue, paying court costs, lawyers, etc.. The judge is already salaried and so is everyone else involved from the government side. I see no taxpayer money of any significance being involved at this point.

Unless, of course, this election is not properly resolved and winds up being settled by the US Senate. Then we are talking some serious dinero for the Senators' time wasted. So let's settle this thing locally on the cheap.

I am serious about where you see an expensive joke. Donald Trump's hairpiece is an expensive joke. The recount is nowhere near as funny.

~ Latte

wv - sixas: 666. I would not be at all surprised to find sixas on the back of Michele Bachmann's head.

zosima said...

You live and breathe statistics, you would pick *some* winner, on the 50-50 odds you'll be right, rather than guarantee a shooting. ;-)

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
William Land said...

What's the next step in this brutal, anxiety-provoking process?
When will the SOS decide about the 133 "missing" ballots?
What about the absentee ballots?
Help!

livemild said...

I AGREE with william land- it seems way too hard to quit MN cold turkey. i did hear that Franken has dropped more challenged ballots.
didnt hear anything else even theuptake has left...

Colin said...

Actually your title is still off. Shouldn't it read: "Minnesota May Beheading Toward Resolution"

MNLatteLiberal said...

@William Land et al:

SOS is not going to decide on the missing ballots. The search has been called off today. He is kicking it to the Canvassing Board to decide:

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/35728824.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsr

The Board will also rule on the 5th pile of the absentees. They start meeting "for real" on the 16th, though they keep meeting on procedural issues on and off.

Hope this info helps, but I know it does nothing for the anxiety, at least in my case.

~ Latte

mediapost said...

Does anyone know when are we going to see the challenges removed from STrib and SOS totals?

William Land said...

Hi Latte,
Thanks for your response.
Looks like not all of the precincts are willing to
separate out the possibly incorrectly rejected absentee ballots. Have you heard about this?
Also, other than this website, what do you think is the best source for recount news? MPR? Star Tribune? Other?
Still way too anxious!

MNLatteLiberal said...

Boy, William Land, you are talking to the wrong guy. I'm a johnnie-come-lately to 538, only got here late in the primaries. I've seen folks get the scoop here from theuptake.org (they seem to be young, small and agile) and mnprogressiveproject.com and sometimes even dailykos. I tend to scan all these at night because I never seem to have any time at work. And by that time it doesn't really matter :). Huffington post, politico all seem to pick up their MN stories from the sources above.

But on the 12 overseas ballots found in the warehouse MN Public Radio actually got the scoop. So, call me Sarah Palin, but I cannot really shed any more light on what I read for the recount news.
~Latte

wv - sessabi: existential wasabi for the soul. Also see: c'estsabi

mediapost said...

Hi all,
I have some good news and some bad news. First, the good news. I continued going through the ballots and got up to 2484 reviewed (from 2220). The challenged undervote margin went from +40 for Franken (132 - 92) to +58 for Franken (153 - 95). However, now for the bad news. The last 200+ ballots that I reviewed were mostly from Hennepin. I'm not sure why I didn't realize this before but I now realize that the ballots are not being served up randomly on the STrib site (not to mention that 4000 ballots aren't even on the site!) and therefore I can't extrapolate my findings to the final total. When I was 33% of the way through (2220 ballot reviews) the 40 vote margin extrapolated to a 120 vote gain and a 23 vote win for Franken. Now, I'm 37% in (2484 balloot reviews) and a 58 vote margin extrapolates to a 155 vote gain and a 58 vote win. I haven't proven anything other than Al is going to do well in Hennepin... That said, I still think Coleman's 499 'excess' challenges (challenges > opponents votes taken away) in Hennepin, Ramsey and St Louis indicate that the local officials have found a lot of new Franken votes.

PS Additional bad news. I'm stuck at 2484 on the STrib web site. It keeps serving up the same ballot and I can't read it or skip over it. I've got a request in to them to fix it.

mediapost said...

Does anyone know what went on in Becker? I noticed 2 precincts that have about 200 total votes where Coleman stands to gain 24 votes (0030 - CALLAWAY TWP and 0240 - WOLF LAKE TWP). Did they find some extra ballots there? It would be nice to hear what happened and dispell some of the claims from the Coleman camp that all the gains are for Franken and there is a consipracy afoot.

KWRegan said...

You are right: where there are numbers, there's probably a story. I found this:

-------
Recount frenzy in Becker County
Jason Adkins DL-Online
Published Wednesday, November 26, 2008

It was an eventful recount process in Becker County Monday and Tuesday, with more than 120 ballot challenges issued, dozens of ballots missing — and then located in precinct ballot boxes — and 61 previously uncounted ballots thrown into the mix.

A 46-vote discrepancy between the number of ballots cast on Election Day and those recounted during Day 2 was resolved Tuesday afternoon.

The ballots in question came from the Lake Eunice and Spruce Grove townships. Both sets of ballots came in to the courthouse around 1 p.m.

Most of the missing ballots came from Lake Eunice Township, where 32 ballots were missing.

Becker County Auditor-Treasurer Ryan Tangen sent a member of his staff to the locked room where election supplies are stored to see if the ballots were there.

The ballots were not found, though.

Tangen then went through a series of measures to determine where the missing ballots were, including interviewing election night workers.

Fourteen ballots were missing from Spruce Grove’s totals.

Spruce Grove election judge Dale Huwe said that he found the ballots inside the box at the Spruce Grove Township offices.

“I got a call about it and when I looked in I said, ‘uh-oh’,” Huwe said.

Huwe said that the ballots must have jiggled out from where they were stuck inside the box when it was moved to a storage area after election night.

He was instructed by Tangen’s office to get a second election judge help transport the ballots to the courthouse.

Tangen said such mishaps can happen, especially with a 90 percent turnout in the county keeping election workers busy.

“We do it once every two years,” Tangen said.
---------------

There's a *lot* more in that article---I'll leave you and the crew to draw more conclusions.

As for your questions about projecting, the general answer is that one needs to weight by (a) the original vote in the precinct/town/county, and (b) the "ditzy Dem" factor. If (a) adds up pretty even, and (b) your large sample has a good balance of city and rural areas, then you can project straight on.

If not, though, then one needs rolling weights for (a) and (b). If (b) really is an urban factor---note the references to "stress" in the above article---then you probably need to treat it like mass in general relativity. Call it the Urbanization "Tenser". The Black Hole of Dinkytown. No fooling---I actually had to use line-element integration for my chess application, as I described here :-).

Physics jokes aside, I/we really appreciate the work. It very much fits the narrative of: good gains for Franken in St. Louis & Ramsey Counties the first day+, then a stall, then revved up again once Hennepin got going. And a final Coleman pullback in Wright & Scott---that the final "X" is 4 has been confirmed now.

Ickey said...

Can someone please tell me what happens in the event of an exact vote-for-vote tie? Does it go to the state legislature, the US Senate, the Gov, or a coin toss or a runoff or what?
Lumberjacking contest?
-Jeff

mediapost said...

@KWRegan,

Thanks for the info on Becker. Things would be looking very good for Al right now if it wasn't for those extra votes. Last night I noticed that STrib published challenges from Dakota and Wright counties. It was nice because those were the only 2 counties in the mix and I got some pretty good numbers. In Wright Franken had 12 challenges to undervotes vs Coleman's 8. In Dakota Franken had 23 challenges to undervotes vs Coleman's 21. The Dakota numbers may be off by a little because I counted 781 challenged ballots in Dakota but there are only 742 challenged ballots reported in Dakota. I think STrib has some duplicates. The Wright numbers were within 1 or 2 and I'm sure that is due to my errors. One other note, I think the decision on how to handle the 2 ovals with one Xd out is going to be a major factor in who wins. Dakota considered these types of votes to be overvotes, Wright split, some precincts considered them overvotes while others considered them votes for the non-X person. If the canvassing board rules in favor of counting these as votes then Franken would win 7 challenges in Dakota and Wright vs 2 challenge wins for Coleman. I just noticed that Ramsey and Sherburne are out there now so I'm going to check them out.

MNLatteLiberal said...

@mediapost,
I am not sure if you already posted this, and I missed it: how are you dealing with the multitude of the Brooklyn Park ballots that are not scanned in the pdf format and refuse to load up?

Thanks to you and KWR for the count/analysis, btw.

From the FWIW files, btw, Ritchie mentioned yesterday on air (MPR and during the forum he attended yesterday, that MPR rebroadcast today at lunch) that the number of the 5th pile ballots is now over 170 in Hennepin alone, around 200 in a few other counties plus about 25 from some other county I cannot recall. All this is with Ramsey refusing to separate/count their 5th pile and the sorting/counting still ongoing.

In short, Ritchie cited a number between 8 and 9 percent for the total improperly rejected absentees. I recall there was a poster in one of the Franken threads here arguing that the improperly rejected number is way lower, around 3-4%, and that the powers that be pretty much admitted that long ago. Now comes the word from the horse's mouth itself (SOS) that the number is indeed very close to 10%.

~ Latte

KWRegan said...

Hi, Latte and mediapost:

I think the comments about how-many 5th-pile ballots are this one and comments after this one.

Meanwhile, I responded to the Fight the `Stolen Election' meme item (linked via TheUptake.org) with a comment here, which you'll find apropos. And yesterday's TwinCities.com story "Error might mean 171 absentee ballots went uncounted" made someone in a non-recount thread here think another Maplewood trove had been found, but the word "error" in the singular was doggone-it misleading, as I commented here.

And would you know whom best to e-mail to at the Star Tribune over mathematical deficiencies in how they're serving those ballots? I tried e-mailing Kevin Duchschere on Tuesday, but no reply, and after this truly poor story today (for reasons several commenters point out), I think I'll try elsewhere. (One commenter there does ask, why did envelope "1/5" hold only 133 ballots while the others held 400-odd?)

Tomorrow I predict: another punt---but hopefully it will clarify the propriety of the SoS asking/requiring all counties to sort their improperly-rejected ballots. Meanwhile, have other voters besides the one in Ramsey pressed this grievance privately? My feeling is, as an ultimate factor, the equal-protection logic of Bush v. Gore and others has to kick in---as soon as it looks like a bunch of private cases will succeed...

mediapost said...

@Latte,

I've been skipping over the Brooklyn Park ballots. What a pain. I sent an EMAIL to STrib through their corrections dept off the Contact Us page. They said they would forward it.

Have you seen the Franken video on absentee voters who's ballots were rejected? Very powerful. I don't understand why the counties don't add in the improperly rejected absentees now. What's the difference between finding ballots in Becker or Ramsey a few weeks after the initial count or finding absentee ballots that were improperly rejected a few weeks after the initial count? Eventually they will get counted, it would be nice if we don't have to have a long drawn out court case to do it.

PS I haven't seen much good news in Ramsey yet, I've been through about 120 ballots with 1 undervote challenge from both sides.

egapre said...

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平平 said...

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