Al Franken may be the favorite to win Minnesota's recount after all.
The state's five-person Canvassing Board today issued two key rulings, both of which represent significant boosts to Franken. In the first ruling, issued at about 10 AM local time, the Canvassing Board determined that 133 ballots from Minneapolis's 1st Precinct, 3rd Ward are in fact missing, and that therefore the results from the recount in that precinct will not be accepted. Instead, the state will revert to its original certified tally in that precinct. Had the state chosen to accept the results from the recount instead, Franken would have lost a net of 46 ballots, as the majority of the missing ballots apparently favored Franken in this highly blue area.
In the second ruling, the Canvassing Board unanimously determined to recommend to the counties that they sort through their absentee ballots to determine which might have been rejected erroneously, and then resubmit their totals to the state after counting such erroneously rejected ballots. A recommendation, it should be mentioned, stops short of a requirement, as the Canvassing Board apparently felt as though it does not have the jurisdiction to require counties to count the absentee ballots without a court order. But, the counties that want to include the absentee ballots in their tallies would be allowed to.
The Coleman campaign, however, is now asking the Minnesota Supreme Court to halt the counting of the absentee ballots until, per the Star Tribune's reporting, "the justices can rule on the campaign's request that they order counties to follow a standard procedure in identifying wrongfully rejected ballots." For the time being, the Coleman campaign merely appears to be seeking a constituent standard for the counting of the absentee ballots, rather than to preclude them from being counted in their entirety,
Indeed, with the missing ballots having been restored to Franken's total (although that ruling also may become the subject of a Coleman lawsuit), it now appears as though the absentee ballots could well tip the balance of the race in Franken's favor. Whereas the state had originally estimated that between 500 and 1,000 absentee ballots had been rejected improperly, that estimate is now up to 1,600 wrongly rejected ballots. A pre-election poll showed Franken leading by 8 percent among absentee voters, which would translate to a net gain of 128 ballots if there are indeed 1,600 such ballots to be counted. This estimate, however, is fairly crude, and nobody knows exactly how the rejected absentee ballots might break, although from my previous conversations with officials close to the Franken campaign, Franken also believes that a plurality of such ballots will be counted in his favor.
12.12.2008
Minnesota Canvassing Board Sides with Franken on Two Key Issues, Sending Coleman to Court
by Nate Silver @ 3:18 PM
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93 comments
First!
This is great news....FOR NORM COLEMAN!
Looks like Franken is now the favorite to win this thing, assuming the Coleman campaign is unsuccessful in lobbying the Minnesota Supreme Court to obstruct the counting.
Interesting that Governor Pawlenty (the guy who should have been the Republican VP nominee) is taking such a hands-off approach here.
Spam.....
Old meme
So what are the estimated totals?
Do the courts have any jurisdiction here? Isn't it up to the Senate to confirm Franken or Coleman? The vote is effectively a tie. The losing party in either case will take it to the courts, but it is up to the Senate who they will swear in. The Democratic majority just needs the political cover to confirm Franken. A breaking scandal involving Coleman is going to sink his chances of being confirmed by the Senate.
Hey, doesn't this look a whole lot like Florida in 2000?
I kinda knew this thing was headed for the SCOTUS. Fucking Scalia.
I hope those ballot counters can count fast. If they can get it done before Scalia tells them to stop the recount again, we'll be alright.
You know, I don't think it would be too much to ask if the GOP were to try a new avenue of attack. I mean, this whole "Let,s get the right-wing activist judges to throw the election in our favor" thing is eight years out of date. It's not like we're not expecting it this time.
I just hope we've hired better lawyers this time.
Yes, Nate, the estimate of Franken gain is from improperly rejected absentees now counted is very crude, especially since (1) we do not know which counties will follow the Board's recommendation and (2) we do not know which precints improperly rejected absentee ballots (one would think that a single incorrect ruling that absentee ballots must meet an erroneously high standard in a precinct could lead to them rejected dozens more absentee ballots than another precinct, which did not impose the erroneous rule). And now we have an example of an outlier:
http://www.twincities.com/ci_11205362?nclick_check=1
"Franken also received unexpected good news when Deputy Secretary of State Jim Gelbmann dropped a mini-bombshell, telling the board that in overwhelmingly Democratic Duluth — which has not officially tallied rejected absentees — about 40 percent of that city's 319 rejected absentee ballots were mistakenly rejected. Gelbmann said the city rejected the votes because either the voter or the witness did not date their signatures. He said he couldn't find any state law to support such a rejection."
Given the composition of the Canvassing Board, I would guess that Coleman's legal strategy would involve taking this directly to the federal courts -- perhaps the SCOTUS -- given that the CB includes members of the SC of Minnesota and thus the SC of Minnesota might be deemed to have a "prejudice" toward accepting the CB's interpretations.
The SCOTUS does not decide who gets seated in the Senate, the Senate does. The Senate dems can tell the Supreme Court to eff off and seat Franken if they wanted to, if I understand correctly.
FL all over again.
after all the screaming going on about blago people are forgetting that coleman is going to face some serious questions concerning his finances.
why not just give it to franken because norm is SO slimey? MOE says it's a tie anyway.
The Best Man Wins! go Al!
Let's not get too optimistic and jinx it. The Duluth news is very good in one way, but it also reminds us that the absentee results will be full of big correlated lumps. In the absence of any further information, that random noise leaves the outcome odds very near 50-50, diluting but not erasing the small F lead from the known info.
I hope they piss around long enough that neither of the two pukes get into office.
I've been disturbed by how this has played out. I would remind everyone that the winner is not the one who objects the loudest; it is the result of the voter tabulation. If that is Coleman, then so be it. Likewise Franken. I hate to parrot Hillary, but every vote that can be legitimately counted must count. Screaming, stamping of feet, vitriol, and calls to revolt are counterproductive to the Democratic process.
It is easy to believe that the devil lives within the margin of error (yes, I voted for Gore and was just as incensed at the Scalia's stain on Democracy as Coleman supporters seem to be about the way the recount is not going as well as they'd like). Sometimes, however, it has to get a whole lot worse before it can get better and that the majority realize, whoops, maybe that was a mistake. It appears that MN is split pretty evenly on this race. But the race is run. I only hope that cooler heads will prevail in the re-tally. And that the losing side will accept the results.
On court jurisdiction
First, a caveat: I'm no lawyer. However, disputes regarding this election can probably not be taken straight to any federal court. Usually, the plaintiff is required to exhaust potential remedies prior to making a court filing. That should mean this case would have to move through the Minn courts first.
Second, without recalling the extraordinarily questionable reasoning behind the 5-4 Gore v. Bush decision by the Supremes, Minnesota is likely to be distinguishable from Florida. I seem to recall the justification cited by the court had to do with the lack of consistency as to what got counted and what did not in FL. Minn seems to have strong guidance so that raising that issue looks far from certain to make any kind of progress.
The counting of absentee ballots seems like it could fall within that issue. But even if it did, the most likely outcome would seem to be a remand to the state to ensure that consistent standards were indeed applied to the absentee ballots. Also, the scope of the ruling would presumably be limited to the absentees, not the legitimacy of the recount as a whole.
Finally, the court took a hit in the manner in which it determined the outcome of the 2000 election. There is good reason for the justices to stay away from this one, particularly as the stakes on one senatorial election do not begin the approach a Presidential outcome.
Why does MN always have such shit to pick from?
"merely appears to be seeking a constituent standard for the counting of the absentee ballots"
Maybe you mean consistent standard?
Not the same "Steve" as the one who commented on court jurisdiction - I'll disagree with him:
I'm not a lawyer either. But (as others have pointed out) this is an election to the US Senate, and the US Senate has the final say. In that that is written into the Constitution itself, I'm not sure the USSC would have any jurisdiction.
Finally, the court took a hit in the manner in which it determined the outcome of the 2000 election. There is good reason for the justices to stay away from this one, particularly as the stakes on one senatorial election do not begin the approach a Presidential outcome.
This is more true than most people realize. Souter and, less so, Kennedy have been reported to have had regrets and to have been deeply concerned about the Court's loss of prestige as a result of Bush v. Gore. They'll likely want to stay out of this if possible.
Also, I do not believe this Senate race has any of the dynamics of 2000, since there is no consitutionally mandated drop dead dates for getting things resolved and the SoS is determined to have a fair and legal process.
I'm confident the Supreme Court will not steal this one.
If there is a federal question (such as an alleged violation of the Equal Protection Clause), then the Supreme Court would have jurisdiction (although they may choose to not exercise it). Just because the Court has jurisdiction, however, doesn't mean it has the final say. That belongs to the Senate, although there would be a huge political price to pay if the Senate is seen as overturning the legitimate election of Coleman and I don't think they would do that.
Spam210wal: don't you mean that this is good news for John McCain?
From the linked article:
"In announcing its decision to go to the Supreme Court, Coleman officials said counties need a consistent statewide set of rules on how to define and count rejected absentee ballots after the Canvassing Board's decision."
Coleman officials are ignoring the fact that there already is a statewide set of rules on how to define rejected absentee ballots. Under MN state law (chapter 203B,section 12) there are 4 and only 4 reasons to reject an absentee ballot:
1. the name and address don't match the absentee ballot application
2. the signature doesn't match
3. the voter isn't registered or
4. the voter has already voted.
Those are the rules, they are consistent across the state and they're already written into the law. That's what I expect the court to say, with the possible addition of "you dumbass!".
At the beginning of the day, Coleman was about a 2-1 favorite on Intrade. It's now about 50-50.
Thw MN statute already sets forth 4 reasons to toss absentee ballots, so any attempt to add another, more limiting standard would disenfranchise voters illegally. In other words, there already is a standard -- anything that does not fit in items 1,2,3 and 4 gets counted.
"Interesting that Governor Pawlenty (the guy who should have been the Republican VP nominee) is taking such a hands-off approach here."
Maybe those two points are related. Maybe he's thinking about 2012 (or more likely 2016) and doesn't want to get involved in this mess.
"Coleman officials are ignoring the fact that there already is a statewide set of rules on how to define rejected absentee ballots. Under MN state law (chapter 203B,section 12) there are 4 and only 4 reasons to reject an absentee ballot:
1. the name and address don't match the absentee ballot application"
What happens if there's a minor problem, like one has 12345 South North Lane and the other hand 12345 South North Road? Or 12345 South North Road and 12435 South North Road?
Can a court say, it was a clerical error?
A good (and funny) point made by Eric Kleefeld at TPM:
"Two of the [Supreme Court] judges, both of them GOP appointees, are also members of that very canvassing board that voted unanimously to allow the count today. Even if they recused themselves, it's hard to imagine the other judges contradicting them in the middle of an ongoing count."
I imagine that the Coleman campaign either A) wants all counties to be forced to review their rejected ballots, rather than just whatever counties feel like it, or B) wants a process for their lawyers to witness what is going on in each count so they can challenge it later on if necessary.
The current process is in no way standard as far as A) goes. And if the newly accepted ballots get counted in private and tossed into the existing piles when the counties are done, they have no effective recourse if the counties do a bad job (again) of dealing with these ballots. I don't see anything wrong with either.
Not taking notes, but 72-vote margin predicted here is still in my mind...
You do know that voting has a known liberal bias.
http://conspiracytheorysatire.blogspot.com/
Mr. Coleman is right to stop this silly effort by Franken to count every vote. It's unAmerican to count all the votes!
F just barely beat C in the last Intrade trades.
Sorry, forgot HTML for the link--Voting has known liberal bias.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't find this anything like FL2000.
First, you don't have an SOS doing everything possible to get the brother of the state's governor elected.
Second, we have pen marked, optical scan, ballots. Not punched cards. (I often wonder if Gore would have won if FL used optical scan ballots everywhere).
Troy - probably.
Optical scan ballots would have eliminated the butterfly ballot, which was instrumental in the strong "Bubbies for Buchanan" turnout in Palm Beach.
Unless the Republicans found some other way to steal it.
While I've made it no secret that I'm pulling for Franken to win this, I actually fully agree with Coleman's action here. Yes, there are already rules in place for how to reject or count the ballots, but they are (or at least they seem) open to interpretation.
Since it seems open to interpretation, it would only be fair that both campaigns should be able to challenge the ballots.
A perfect example -- the signatures need to match or else a ballot is rejected. But how much of a signature needs to match? All of my signatures look very similar, but when I signed my credit card for the gas station this morning, I'm sure it looked different than when I wrote my mortgage check.
Would that be enough to "reject" my vote? Or, would it also be a "voter intent" thing in which case the campaigns should be able to challenge the judges to ensure that the judges are not biased. Otherwise, a left leaning election judge could determine that the signatures on some of the Coleman absentee ballots weren't close enough, while not holding Franken votes to the same standard and vice versa.
Allow the campaigns to watch and challenge, and draw out exactly what is meant by each one to make it as clear as possible. Doing so will go very far to really ensuring every vote truly is counted.
What happens if next week Franken takes the lead after the challenges are judicated. Do we see dueling conversions with Coleman calling for every absentee ballot to be counted and Franken putting up roadblocks?
Isn't there some law that just lets them settle this with an old fashioned duel? Every few days I check on the race thinking "They have to have figured it out by now", but no. Never. How the candidates haven't gouged their own eyes out in frustration I will never know.
Isn't there some law that just lets them settle this with an old fashioned duel?
And if the world was fair, the rule would be that whoever loses the duel wins the election.
I think the majority of the commenters are missing the point of Bush v Gore. In this instance, the case actually protects Franken because it says there is no federal standing on such matters.
Finally, the court took a hit in the manner in which it determined the outcome of the 2000 election. There is good reason for the justices to stay away from this one, particularly as the stakes on one senatorial election do not begin the approach a Presidential outcome.
This is more true than most people realize. Souter and, less so, Kennedy have been reported to have had regrets and to have been deeply concerned about the Court's loss of prestige as a result of Bush v. Gore. They'll likely want to stay out of this if possible.
Souter didn't vote with the majority in 2000. He probably voted among the seven who agreed with Bush's "equal treatment under the law" argument, but he didn't vote to stop the recount.
Steve said: "Coleman officials are ignoring the fact that there already is a statewide set of rules on how to define rejected absentee ballots."
Thank you, this is the most relevant comment on this situation. The rules regarding the "five piles" are already clear.
I can't imagine what Norm's driving at, unless he's hoping the court will invalidate the entire absentee recount as violating equal protection.
The only potential federal question in this case that could get this case brought into federal court would be a variation on the equal protection theory in Bush v. Gore. One of the issues in Bush v. Gore was the fact that only some of the ballots were being examined. Under today's recommendation from the Canvassing Board (since they decided they couldn't issue an order), it is still up to local officials to decide if they will look at the absentee ballots (having already looked at other ballots).
If Coleman wanted to make a federal case of it, the complaint would be that all counties should be looking at absentees or none of them should be. The solution that would take this out of federal court jurisdiction would be for Franken to seek a Minnesota court order that all counties have to follow the Board's recommendation.
As to the other issues, technically, the Senate can ignore the final decision of any court on this matter (or the certified results from the Canvassing Board), it just looks bad when they do. Needless to say, Congress prefers having election contests settled by the courts not by Congress (see the close race in Florida 18 in the 2006 election).
@just_looking who said:
just_looking said...
What happens if next week Franken takes the lead after the challenges are judicated. Do we see dueling conversions with Coleman calling for every absentee ballot to be counted and Franken putting up roadblocks?
Nope. One of the most admirable things about the Franken campaign post-Nov.4 is their uniform and constant call for ALL the valid votes to be counted.
In fact,this is something Elias restates just about every daily briefing they have. It is my fear, however, that now, having essentially won the recount by the slightest of margins, Franken stands to lose a heck of a lot more than Coleman once the erroneously rejected 5th pile of absentees is counted. Ironic, it would be nothing new to Franken, and the irony of it all is inescapable. But we banish such pessimistic thoughts. Banish them with a banishing broom.
On a more serious note, my personal thanks again to KWRegan and mediapost for their hard work and continued scrutiny on MN and our recount while Nate got momentarily distracted by a far tastier Blagojevich scandal.
KWR, I caught the very tail end of your blogging on theuptake this afternoon. In another day full of business meetings I had to rely on texting from my brother to keep me abreast on the Canvass Board developments. Sucks when work cuts into real life :).
~ Latte
FWIW, that % of erroneously rejected absentees is now pegged at 13%, eh? *g*
On a related note in one of the local online publications yesterday I saw them listing Franken picking up net ~130 votes in the recount before challenges. Can't recall the source, though.
latte- i heard something about another 171 ballots yesterday or the day before and havent heard anything since. do you know anything?
since you seem to know the most here about MN thought to ask you. thanks!
at the uptake i asked about how once they start to go through they challenges how are they going to release new total #s? just thought i would ask about too!
Regardless of the outstanding count of challenges, evening split pretty much, 90% of those are knowable, based on the initial election judge's decision, until you get to 2-300 left total.This election is at far less the possible MOE, 100-200 votes either way, or likely less.
The presumed pickup in Duluth (where my brother graduated, UM) is A SIGNIFICANT gain for Franken.
Of course all this assumes a competent legal authority at the level of the MN Supremes (-2) sorts this out in a logical, judicious, and relatively swift manner, to minimize PR stink.
I wish I could say English wasn't my first language, my humblest apologies.
alas.
I believe that any appeal to SCOTUS re a decision of the Minnesota Supreme Court will NOT be accepted on the basis that it is a state matter.The reasoning will be that in 2000 all 50 states were in a sense involved in the decision while in 2008 only Minnesota is involved.
@Opus: In 2000, the SCOTUS took the case on the pretext that there was an issue federal law at stake; it did not have to with the number of states affected or involved.
In MN, as I noted above, because the Canvassing Board has members of the SC of Minnesota on it, it is simply not possible to appeal any decisions of that Board to the SC of Minnesota. Thus, Coleman would have to appeal to a federal court, on some issue of constitutional law -- perhaps denial of due process or equal protection.
You may not recall but in 2000 most people did not expect the SCOTUS to grant cert; the consensus of experts was that the SCOTUS would regard the tallying of votes within the state of Florida as a "state issue" and a "political issue," thereby deferring to the FL Supreme Court.
But in the end, the SCOTUS took the case, on the pretext that the FL Supreme Court had relied in part on federal and constitutional issues in making its 4-3 (4 Dems vs. 3 Repubs on the court) decision to order the recounting in all counties of FL.
Seems to me that the current SCOTUS would be no less disposed to intervene in MN than the Court was to intervene in FL in 2000. Justice Roberts was even one of those in the crowd down in Miami who had worked on behalf of Bush at that time.
Nobody should blithely assume that counting of votes in MN is just a state matter.
Juris-
As you say.SCOTUS took the 2000 case on a pretext.I'm saying that this case isn't big enough for the conservative members to sell out whatever legal principles they have left.
I could be wrong.I hope not.We'll see.
Also,Juris,Scotus stopped the recount.In Minnesota the recount will have already taken place and a winner declared.
A huge difference,no?
(BTW,am I right in assuming you are a lawyer?)
Thanks, Latte! Re "work cutting into real life", there's an entry on our Dean's Annual Report for "Public service actions", and I can probably list "explaining relevant mathematics and computer science on comment areas of prominent public websites..." At TheUptake I was mainly answering questions others raised.
For example, here's something within my most particular expertise: There are 3 basic ways the STrib could implement "randomly" serving the ballots:
(A) Create a single circular sequence S in a largely by-county order. Assign each user a "random" starting point in S, such as by hashing their username or by the system time in milliseconds when they started.
(B) Do (A) with a single sequence S that was chosen (pseudo-)randomly.
(C) Generate a different pseudo-random sequence for each user.
Now (B) and (C) are definitely ruled out by "mediapost"s observations, and even by mine, but (A) is still possible. And (A) is not that bad. The main hitch is that people may tend to stop when they're done with a particular county or region, causing some bias in the results.
(C) is best on theoretical grounds, but (B) is pretty close, and saves a lot on the info you need to store for each user---one only needs to maintain each user's current place in the sequence, rather than the whole set of ballots already viewed. And the pseudorandom function needs to be run just once---or again when adding more ballots---rather than each time for each user. So I would advocate (B).
There is also the problem, when you add new ballots, of evening out the statistics. In all cases you want new users to see more of the newer ballots. In (C) you can simply weight individual ballot probabilities inversely according to the number of views, and things will "mix" quickly. In (B) and (A) it's not so easy: you will create a bias especially at the points where you've spliced the sequence of new ballots into the old sequence. One thing that helps is also randomly assigning a user a direction, forwards or backwards in the sequence.
There are higher-order issues that emerge in many kinds of professional studies, and need the advantages of e.g. the Mersenne Twister, but I think this one is fine with the simpler stuff.
I'd be curious to know whether the STrib has an expert familiar with these points and terms such as "homoskedasticity". From the reports and the project's "about page", I fear not. Indeed its first paragraph is whacko, for more reasons than caught by commenter "twtch78" in a comment titled "Error calculation is mishandled". (And I see part of that comment harks back to my method C, but I still think B is okay.)
To clarify, I meant "it is still possible that the STrib is doing (A)."
In 2000, Scotus took the case to influence the appointment of their colleagues-to-be. They don't have that motivation this time.
Do the courts have any jurisdiction here?
This question, along with Justice Thomas' recent mischief about Obama's citizenship, prods me to the following: Don't we need some sort of legislative firewall against the possibility of any more Bush v. Gore decisions, given the fact that the Republican shitheads on the Supreme Court will be there awhile?
Legislation sharply limiting the types of issues courts can decide in disputed elections? Even if such a law were struck down by them in a pinch, having it would provide a basis for refusing to abide by any more Bush v. Gore decisions.
Let's be fair to Justice Thomas even though he is demonstrably the worst justice in many years to sit on the court. He has been accused on some blogs of backing the Donofrio suit which claims that Obama is ineligible because of his supposed dual citizenship. Donofrio asked for a stay on the election certification in NJ (I think) and after it was turned down in lower courts he appealed to the SCOTUS. The appeal was denied by Justice Souter who handles appeals for that district.
At this point Donofrio appealed to Justice Thomas. If Thomas had denied the appeal Donofrio could have gone to all the other justices one by one. By referring it to the court as a whole it could be dismissed at once and it was on December 5. The identical process happened yesterday with the Wrotnowsky case which was very similar to the Donofrio case. It was referred by Justice Scalia after being originally denied. This is apparently a procedural issue and should not be taken as an indication that Thomas gave any credence to the case. Technically, all we know so far is that Wrotnowsky was not one of the cases given certification in the orders yesterday. The full denial will probably be published Monday morning. We know that the Donofrio suit was dismissed unanimously because no dissent was given with the dismissal order.
I am amazed by fervor of the small group that continues to believe Obama will not be taking the oath of office on 1/20 and that somehow the SCOTUS or Congress is going to magically step in and stop it. There are several blogs devoted to this cause now. I guess it isn't surprising to see that Alan Keyes has joined the party. That is always a sure sign that it is a lost cause.
Hi KWRegan and Latte,
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, a Coleman supporter, and he informed me that Coleman has already won this election 5 times!! He won once on election day when he declared victory before all the precincts had reported their initial results, he won again the next day before the local election officials reviewed their initial results, he won again before Minnesota law kicked in and ordered a hand recount, he won again before uncounted ballots were found in Becker and Ramsey counties and voting machines were found to be defective in St Louis county, and now, finally, he has won once more, before the challenged ballots have been reviewed. At best Franken only has 2 more chances to win this election, once before the improperly rejected absentee ballots are counted and once more, before any additional law suits are resolved. As he has pointed out, it's pretty clear that Al is going to lose this thing either 5-2 or 6-1.
It reminds me of when the Red Sox won the World Series in 1986. I know some people think the Mets won the World Series in 1986, but the Red Sox actually won Game 6 5 times, the Mets only won it once. The Red Sox won once in regulation, just before the bottom of the eighth, and they won 4 more times in extra innings, once before the bottom of the
10th, once before the last out in the bottom of the 10th, once before the last strike in the bottom of the 10th and one final time before the wild pitch and the ball that went through Buckner's legs. A stirring 5 - 1 victory, but alas, the victory was stolen by the 'umpires' and their 'rules'. We Bostonians know who the true champions are. All hail the 2007 Super Bowl champion New England Patriots and their perfect 19 - 0 season!!
I had been hoping the Nat would provide some statistical analysis of the possibilities remaining, based upon the present vote, the challenged votes, and the absentee. I thought he was going to provide it.
For my two cents, the present amount that Coleman is leading is 188 votes. There are about 6000 challenge ballots, and Coleman has about 100 more challenged that Franken (I understand that Coleman has withdrawn more votes than Franken, but I'm using the prewithdrawn figures for these purposes). If we assume that both have challenged votes for the other, and that they which are all denied, that means that Franken will gain about 100 votes, limiting Coleman's lead to about 90.
But this assumes that they are challeging the other votes. As Nat has said, some challenges are not of the others. My minor review of the ballots that have been posted on the Star Tribune (which are of pre-withdrawn ballots [I assume] and are most boring and toturous to review), indicates tha about 3 - 4 challeges of Franken are NOT of Coleman votes, while only 1 - 2 of the Coleman challenges of the votes are not of Franken. This would mean a pickup of about 2 votes per 100, which times 60 would mean about 120 more Franken votes - this, of course, is dependent upon the ballots that I have seen to be random or representative of the challenges, and that my "sample" of 100 or so is sufficient (Nat could give us some indication of this). This conclusion is similar to the Franken allegation that they are winning by 22, but that scares me.
This also doesn't take into account the absentee ballots, which, if 1600 and the 8% advantage that has been touted (which is probably too optomistic), that might mean 100 extra votes or so.
Nat, can you give us an analysis.
@livemild
As I mentioned earlier, I've fallen way behind on this ever developing story, and, alas, cannot be anyone's sherpa. Kenny gave a great link here
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/12/minnesota-canvassing-board-sides-with.html#comment-3462922877679948218 to a Pioneer Press story that talked about the absentee ballot find (40% of all absentees rejected wrongly) in Duluth that others have been referring to in this tread. Other than that, the only reference to 171 number is the SOS comments on how many wrongly rejected absentee ballots they separated out in Hennepin County/Minneapolis.
Ramsey County Elections Manager Joe Mansky, who afaik, has been the one objecting to the pile sorting in Ramsey, has been lately appearing in the same forums as Ritchie. They sound as if they are on the same page. One (me for instance) would think that now that he has the Attorney General ruling and the Canvassing Board urging to cover his butt, 5th pile ought to start...well...piling up.
And on a cynical, partisan and politically incorrect note, since that St. Louis, Hennepin and now Ramsey are counting the 5th, who cares about all the "red" counties who might be holding out? If their county election managers are determined to give Franken an larger edge, who am I to argue with that? Well, there it is. I said it. :)
@ KWR
When I first posted the link to that Strib recount challenge page, I asked a couple of folks still reading what was then a deeply buried thread to keep track of what ballots come up in what order. I asked because after about 20 frivolous duds, I finally hit a truly interesting ballot and wanted to discuss in an intelligent forum.
Well, a couple of folks here, whose names I do not recall started the count, and their ballots appeared in a different order. That means that at least they randomize, if not well. Now, as to your A, B or C, I'd think that A is out as well, as their persistence lengths (ballots for the same county popping up in a raw) are "unrandomly" long: I've hit sequences of 3-4 in a row from smaller counties (the annoying Brooklyn Park ones are the most recent example). Now, given the number of counties (87) and discounting weighing by the challenge #/county (assuming them to be roughly equal, which we know they are not), what are the odds of 3 in a row from, say, Fillmore? 1/(87^3), right? Well, you get my drift.
The Strib randomizing system is screwed up, and so is their count. The 10 billion flies theory - seeing how all others have voted - i.e. the number by which either Franken or Coleman wins, fluctuates too wildly for anything that is even mathematically correct. Also, if they go through all the trouble of doing the exercise, why not do it right? Why not post how the voting of the population broke on each ballot rather than on the meaningless en massee aggregate?
Well, off my soap box and back to work.
~ Latte
PS: @taconite12, coincidence maybe, but English is not my first language either. More like 3rd, chronologically speaking, so no worries. You are among friends here :))
Souter didn't vote with the majority in 2000. He probably voted among the seven who agreed with Bush's "equal treatment under the law" argument, but he didn't vote to stop the recount.
My bad. I must have been thinking of O'Conner as having second thoughts about the decision instead of Souter.
@Latte, KRW and jnf1818,
For what it's worth...I've voted on 6018 of 6731 ballots. I just can't stop, my wife is going to kill me. It's clear that the site has at least 86 dupes because SOS has reported 6655 ballots. I suspect they have even more dupes and may be missing some others entirely... not sure but just a hunch. In addition, as Latte has mentioned you can't see a lot of the ballots. So, to do a conclusive analysis is not possible. Also, as we've seen, it's really not possible to extrapolate results because of the way that the site presents the ballots. However, my primary purpose of going through these is to determine if the Franken camp is being honest about their internal counts. It appears to me that they. So far I've found 235 Franken challenges to non-Coleman ballots and 158 Coleman challenges to non-Franken ballots, a net gain for Al of 77 votes. Taking the 192 initial margin for Coleman, minus the 95 excess Coleman challenges leaves 97. 97 - 77 leaves Coleman ahead by 20 with 600 or so to go.
I've also tracked challenges that I thought had merit, mostly the 2 ovals with one Xed out scenario mentioned earlier. Those fall about 30 - 20 for Franken. So I assume he'll pick up another 10 from those when the Canvassing board decides to treat that scenario equally across all counties.
@mediapost,
somehow I missed your post from earlier this morning - sorry. I have seen that type of tennis (your comparison is to baseball) type of analysis on the Strib pages early on in the recount.
Btw, it amazes me how disproportionate the "analysis" has been in the local MN MSM discussion threads in the sense that there are so many utterly irrelevant and idiotic right wing posts and so few in-kind counters (i.e. "Nohm was never funny on SNL/Nohm should go home"). And it is those types that do the score keeping of who won this thing more times. When one tries to correct them and explain how the process works, and how there is no winner at all yet, they prefer not to listen. I am lucky that among my friends/coworkers who voted Coleman, there are no such specimen.
I appreciate the difficulty of going through the ballots that Strib has. I will not disclose, for the reason of personal safety and plausible future deniability how many ballots I've evaluated, but it is a 4 digit number as well, though far shy of yours. I've become very frustrated with the site for all the aforementioned reasons, yours and mine. FWIW, and it might be coming too late now, MPR site has been running ahead of the Strib in the # of ballots posted in their challenge, and theirs are organized by county, alphabetically.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/2008/campaign/results/mn/recount/ballots/
5684 scanned pdf ballots as of this AM. (I never told you this in case your wife looks for the jackass who gave you the link). :)
~ Latte
bob hall said...
... "Don't we need some sort of legislative firewall against the possibility of any more Bush v. Gore decisions, given the fact that the Republican shitheads on the Supreme Court will be there awhile?"
Not sure if you saw this, but SCOTUS recently flip-flopped on Bush v Gore:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/supreme_court_overturns_bush_v
in the same happy place we find 31 more votes for Franken:
http://www.theonion.com/content/whitehousewar
It cheered me up. Off topic, but did any of you catch that Bush issue the Onion ran last year? Where among other things dubya finds an error in the Fermi Lab calculations? LMAO material, the Onion.
~ Latte
@Latte
My favorite article of all time from The Onion http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28784 Bush: 'Our Long National Nightmare Of Peace And Prosperity Is Finally Over' published 1/17/2001. It is weird to go back and read how little of a parody this turned out to be.
Why does the SoS have Coleman with four fewer votes than the STrib?
Didn't the Minn. Supreme court alread rule once that they did NOT have jurisdiction and that the canvassing board should make the call on absentee ballots? (They also said they were NOT ruling on the merits of the case.)
Now the canvassing board, which includes two Supremes, has made the call to count the wrongly discarded absentee ballots.
So why would the Minn. Supreme Court now decide it DOES have jurisdiction and rule in Coleman's favor?
I think Coleman loses this one - hopefully quickly. I would like to see the absentee ballot count coming in quickly and reducing Coleman's lead significantly so the challenged ballots will just be piling on.
Fascinated Reader
Hey, check out these 3 from Martin county, there's nothing like consistency...
1) 2 ovals filled with an X through one of them and the word 'no' next to it. Ruled to be an overvote.
http://upload.mpr.org/ballots/Marshall/Marshall_Grygla_challengedballot1.pdf
2) 2 ovals filled with an X through one of them, ruled to be a vote for the non-X oval.
http://upload.mpr.org/ballots/Marshall/Marshall_MiddleRiver_challengedballot1.pdf
3) 2 ovals filled with an X through one of them and 'no' written next to the name of the Xd out candidate, ruled an overvote.
http://upload.mpr.org/ballots/Marshall/Marshall_WarrenW2_challengedballot1.pdf
Thanks for the NPR site Latte.
I disagree with the easy line that this is good for Franken and bad for Coleman. Because, though he may not like it in this case, even a Republican will say, at least publicly, that all legitimate votes should be counted.
Oh, wait. No, a Republican would not say that. Remember Florida (and the aftermath we live today)?
@mediapost- Any further tidbits for us addicts?
p.s. Thanks!
Good article on www.msnbc.com on the status of the "challenged ballots."
No mention of the absentee ballot issues, however.
Any one else out there have any news or new predictions on all of this?
@Michael (mbw)
Here's a couple of confusing ones. These look like ballots that Franken would challenge but they say Coleman challenged them. I wonder if the challenge stamp is incorrect and they were really Franken challenges.
http://senaterecount.startribune.com/media/ballotPDFs/Ramsey_St.%20Paul%20W2%20P12_challenged%20ballot%209.pdf
http://upload.mpr.org/ballots/Chippewa/chippewa_claracity_challengedballot1.pdf
Here's another weird one. The 'o' in Coleman is filled in. There is another name that has an 'o' in it that is filled. All the rest of the ballot has the usual ovals filled in. They actually awarded the vote to Coleman and Franken has challenged. It's hard to see how that should count as a vote.
http://senaterecount.startribune.com/media/ballotPDFs/Ramsey_ArdenHillsP2_challengedballot1F.pdf
And one last one that favors Franken. It's hard to see how this should count either.
http://senaterecount.startribune.com/media/ballotPDFs/St.Louis_NewIndependence_challengedballot1C.pdf
@mediapost
The last one from St. Louis County is fairly consistent in its voting method/marking. So, imho, it's fairly straightforward to discern the voter intent. And the election judge saw it that way too. So, this is Franken's to lose, which he might, though the odds are better than 50/50 imho for Al.
The Arden Hills ballot show a clear pattern of how the voter marks his intent. It's by filling in the oval. The rest is doodling. Again, impartisanho.
As to the top two, I recall seeing a fair number of such ballots where the side issuing the challenge didn't jibe. Several other posters pointed those ballots out as well.
Lastly, I'm very curious to see if any news org publishes the remaining 1000 ballots on Tuesday. I am assuming that when the Franken campaign gets its challenges below 500 as per Board's renewed request last Friday, the Coleman folks will be eager to match.
It looks like theuptake.org will carry the Canvassing Board deliberations of each ballot live, so it would make a lot of sense that someone will publish the last 1000 that counts, as the Board and the campaigns will each have their copies of the 1000 stack.
I can almost taste the daja vu as we see the all too familiar ballots pop up. I hope the Lizard People survive the purging at the Coleman camp and make it to the finals. I have some others I am rooting for as well (the argyle ballot, the pearl necklace ballot, etc.)
~ Latte
Did you guys see this in the STrib AP story?
"The AP also found that among challenged ballots that easily could be assigned, Franken netted 200 more votes than Coleman. But Coleman has withdrawn significantly fewer ballot challenges than Franken — that is, the pool of challenges that can now be awarded to Franken is larger, and both campaigns announced Sunday that they would withdraw more challenges by Tuesday.
Of the remaining challenges, the AP found that only about 1,640 couldn't reliably be awarded to either candidate. More than 400 possible Franken votes were being held up on grounds that those voters identified their ballots through write-ins, initials, phone numbers or some other distinctive marking. At least 300 possible Coleman votes were in limbo for the same reasons."
That actually sounds pretty good. No-brainers bring Franken just a little ahead (~200 gain, starting down 188 or 192). He seems to have a little more room to grow in the questionable ballots, too.
So maybe it'll be Coleman demanding that those absentees count.
I wonder when we're going to get any updated county by county totals with the withdrawals taken out. STrib is still showing 6655 challenges. It will be very intersting to see how the lead changes.
SOS web page is now listing all three sets of withdrawn challenges from both candidates:
http://www.sos.state.mn.us/home/index.asp?page=1405
The pdf's are not included, but the challenge number is listed after the county and the precinct, so if you are organized, they are trackable.
FWIW, all four of mine survived the purging :).
~ Latte
wv - ledshai: John Paul Jones career post-Zeppelin
Good job Latte!! Thanks for not slowing down the proceedings with frivolous challenges!!
I've seen a couple of articles about the Coleman camp claiming there are several hundred duplicate ballots. If true I don't understand why it wasn't resolved as part of the hand recount. It's hard to imagine that the local election officials would allow them to be double counted again in the recount, but if they were it could have a huge affect on the outcome. Do you know any details behind this story?... and why were they initially going to go to the MN Supremes? This is very confusing.
see below:
Knaak added a wrinkle to the Coleman's team legal arguments, saying it will ask the canvassing board Tuesday to "ensure the concept of one person, one vote" by not allowing duplicate votes that were cast on Election Day to be counted more than once.
He said campaign officials believe "a couple of hundred" votes from locations he didn't specify were mistakenly counted twice on Election Night. Local elected officials created those duplicates after originals were misfed or jammed into voting machines, he said.
Initially, the campaign had planned to treat the issue of the duplicate ballots as part of its argument to the Supreme Court, but decided instead to present it directly to the Canvassing Board.
"We want to make sure they're counted just once where there are obvious duplicates," Knaak said, adding that the campaign's lawyers will ask that those particular ballots be treated collectively by the board.
@mediapost,
I heard Knaak's comments in news clips on radio, but have not seen them in print until you posted. My take on these duplicates is similar to what I posted before:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/12/missing-ballots-in-minneapolis.html#comment-6991714510940607270).
Here is my take on this, but all imho only.
No doubt you have run into a category of challenges where a perfectly good looking ballot gets flagged because of "no duplicate" found. If you read my original post, to find the dupes, the judge has to sort through the entire precinct full of ballots, which is often several thousand. For each dupe. Them dupes are hard to find. Even when they are there.
One of the issues MN hand recount shed a lot of light on is how some election judges are a bit fuzzy on some of the subtleties of the less common procedures. High absentee false error rate is but one glaring illustration of this.
IMHO, another is the duplicate issue and how some of the judges deal with the jammed, and especially wrong format absentee ballots which require a fairly elaborate dance from the judge. In Washington County we've seen a bunch of originals for which no dupes could be found. Coleman challenged every single one. Afair, there were a couple that we challenged as well. Also, afair, there were duplicates with no originals in the envelope as well, but those are far less frequent, unless the envelope with the originals got misplaced.
What the procedure the Canvassing Board will decide upon in these cases is unclear. Will they think the dupes are in the general pile, and the judge absentmindedly forgot to mark them as such? Or that the judges never made the duplicates to feed them through?
But my hunch is that Knaak is blowing smoke. I bet the Coleman campaign has calculated that they are ahead in that type of a challenge, and would stand to gain if all duplicate type of challenges were summarily allowed.
My issue is understanding the mechanism for the double count that needs to be proposed. If the original got chewed up, there was no way it got counted twice, especially after the hand recount. Judge would have created an incident report, recording the instance, the duplicate ballot would've been marked. I honestly cannot see how "a couple of hundred" of these would've been counted twice, esp. in a hand recount.
~ Latte
wv - secycop. I kid you not!
You can follow the recount here
As of 3:49 PM central, Franken had won at least 10 out of 111 challenges (his vote total went up 10), and had lost at least 74 (Coleman's vote total went up 74). What you can't tell is of the other 27 ballots, which were Franken losses (originally no vote), Franken wins (originally a Coleman vote) or the Board could not decide.
Another interesting point is that after Franken's challenges are judicated, he will appear to be behind by quite a bit. But then after Coleman's are judicated, Franken will appear to be ahead by quite a bit (Coleman has about twice as many challenges remaining). We won't know the true story until the vote totals are adjusted for the withdrawn challenges.
Thanks just_looking,
I can't get the link to come up. I get the outline of a page but no content. Can you publish it again? Thanks
It will be maddening if they don't update the totals daily, but it's starting to look like we'll just have to wait until the entire process is over. The daily recount updates provided such great drama.
Are there any sites that show the ballots and the rulings (is that the site you pointed to just_looking?) I'd be particularly interested in the 2 ovals with one Xd out ruling.
@mediapost,
KWR and I have been blogging on theuptake.org site on and off in the early afternoon (not sure if he saw me). In any case, www.theuptake.org is a better streaming site because you can chat while the ballots are being reviewed. They have the day's video saved and ready to go on top of the page.
Here is a quote from one of the zookeepers @ theuptake regarding the end of the day results:
Michael McIntee: "160 votes challenged by Franken reviewed. 22 went for Franken, 97 for Coleman and 41 for "other". About 7 of those votes in the "other" pile were originally Coleman votes."
My analysis is that the Board strains, but does not overstrain to discern the intent. Anything that's middle of the line or circling the letters in Coleman does not constitute a vote acc. to the Board.
The x'ed out ovals got nicely parsed, imho. With the apparent overvotes, the Board counted them to delete the x'ed vote and to count the filled in oval. With a single x'ed out filled out oval the Board decisions split depending on the ballot and individual case. Sometimes they allowed the vote, other times I saw them punt it as unclear voter intent into the "other" pile.
Finally, the most impressive thing to me was their ruling thus far on the potentially id'ed ballots. Where the person's name or initials were present for no apparent reason, the ballot was dq'ed as marked/id'ed. But in cases where the voter x'ed out an oval and/or made a correction and added the initials as proof of him/her doing the editing, they allowed the vote. Some interesting subcases of that came up, imho.
A great day for Franken, imho.
~ Latte
I have been interested in this discussion(s) since the election. I believe that there is a scenario that I have not seen written about. Though unlikely, in the stranger than fiction category I am not so sure it is such an outrageous possibility. I shall also note that I have absolutely no credentials to enter into this argument and I may have missed a significant fact that make this a joke, though I know I am not alone in that regard.
First I would like to comment about the Minnesota process. From my perspective it has in general been extremely efficient, straight forward and fair. I don’t believe there is a way yet devised that is perfect, or that can claim to be fair and have accuracies to the single or low double digit level out of 2.9 million ballots cast. To those that believe otherwise I believe they need to present their process and mechanisms. In these circumstances I hope this remains a Minnesota process and both the federal courts and the US Senate resist the temptation to intervene.
My scenario assumes that the Canvass Committee strongly believes that this is an issue for Minnesota to solve, and that they personally would like find a “safe harbor” solution where they are not made into scapegoats. The “safe harbor” solution is an “exact tie”. I hope that I read that correctly when I read some of the Minnesota Law. I also believe that most of us realize that there is nothing ultimately exacting about any election process conceived of today (that is there is no judgment anywhere in the process that can not be challenged or open to some interpretation). Even if the best count possible yields an “exact tie”, it will have judgment connected to it. Is it a stray mark that should be ignored or is it an identifying mark yielding a ballot that should be rejected.
The scenario is that the Canvass Committee will declare a tie based upon roughly the above argument (even if the spread in the count is single or low double digits). This is the most unlikely case because it would take a great deal of courage for the members to take though I believe that it is the correct one. I believe that “exact” could be interpreted to be the level of process accuracy. The Minnesota Supreme court might have something to say about it but they might actually agree with the committee.
The other way of achieving an “exact” tie would be to interpret enough of the difficult ballots such that the count for both candidates match exactly. This would be easier done if the committee does its voting in a closed session like most judge panels. (At this writing I have not found a source that has stated the process that the committee will take or has taken.)
Once the “exact” tie is certified then there would be a coin toss.
Minnesota will have their senator. The US Senate would have to act and not react. They would invite all sorts wrath from many quarters. If I understand the most recent precedent, the state essentially threw up their hands and said that they could not certify a winner. I also think (I could be wrong here) that the process in that state was a reelection if there was a tie which is what the US Senate decided to do.
The US Supreme court would also find itself in lots of criticism if they intervened. Minnesota followed diligently the state law. It is hard to imagine that a coin toss is unfair and biased toward one political party or the other (though it is not exactly 50-50, where the spread is greater than the spread in this count).
Thanks Latte,
Sounds like good news so far, thanks for the update and the web site. I enjoy hearing Elias speak.
So, if we extrapolate the results of today to Franken's 466 challenges then Coleman would pick up 284 votes (61% of 466) and Franken would pick up 60 votes (13% of 466). The net pickup of 224 for Coleman leaves him with a lead of 412 (188 + 224). If we assume the same success rates for Franken on Coleman's 1000 challenges (I don't have an exact number), we would get 610 for Franken and 130 for Coleman, a net gain of 480 for Franken and a 68 vote lead (480 - 412). However, that is not as good as it sounds because the withdrawn challenges have not been applied and Franken will have 435 more withdrawn challenges than Coleman (3278 - 466 = 2812 Franken withdrawn challenges vs. 3377 - 1000 = 2377 Coleman withdrawn challenges). So, it looks to me like Franken will have to do considerably better on Coleman's challenges than Coleman did on his. If Franken gets an 80%/5% split of the 1000 Coleman challenges he would have a 338 vote lead (750 - 412) but would still have 435 more withdrawn challenges than Coleman. He needs a 90/5 split or better for his lead to be greater than the his excess withdrawn challenges... That doesn't seem to sound so good. On the other hand, there is little reason to believe that Coleman challenges 467 - 1000 will get him much of anything, so 80/5 or 90/5 might be doable.
a couple of things before I go to bed.
@bo, that's an interesting twist on the "dead heat"/"statistical tie". I don't think the Board will do that calling the blurry 200 or so with unresolvable voter intent a gray area that necessitates a coin flip. Though that would be mathematically palatable, I suppose.
The Board's mo has been to dismiss those in which they cannot discern the voter intent. And they will not strive for a tie passing up on the best opportunities. That'd be like expecting a coin flip to land on a side, and to help that eventuality rounding off the coin edges to bull nose rather than flattening them out. (wow, what a weird analogy :). So, I don't think the Board is trying to punt the decision on the election to a coin flip.
@mediapost
It's not as grim as you post, from what I gather. I see Franken's success rate as >18%. On top of your 13%, he also succeeded in dismissing at least 7 Coleman votes to the "other" pile. So the net effect I get is Franken cutting 29 off Coleman's lead due to his challenges out of 160 attempts. That's better than 18%, and a far better rate than I expected.
As to how many total challenges Franken had remaining, I saw numbers like 440-441 to start with this AM. Now I see numbers between 230 and 250 on the remaining Franken challenges for tomorrow.
As to the rest of your math, I see where you are going with this. But assuming equal number of challenges for each candidate remaining, the net difference at the outset was less than a hundred by most counts, and 97 acc. to Strib/SOS (215-118 at the outset when there were 6655 total). What I see is Franken has already made up 29 of that with less than half way to go through his challenges and none of Coleman's, most of which are going to be dismissed.
Even if it is at the same rate as Franken's, Al stands to gain (61-18)% of about, call it, 500 to make math easy. That's 43% of 500 or about 215 net pick up for Franken from Coleman's challenges vs roughly the same # for visa versa.
But we know that Coleman actually has more votes taken away from Franken due to his challenges than visa versa, so that assumption on the 43% gain earlier is probably erroneous and a real low ball number.
The best way to look at it is this: acc. to your count and Elias count, we started the day with Franken being up 4, assuming all the challenges are dismissed. To that we added another 29 today from those challenges that stood, and stand to add even more tomorrow.
Let's see what the net pick up is actually tomorrow for Franken, and the see how Coleman challenges stack up, and if Coleman is able to gain as much from his pile. All I know is that the 18% challenge success rate is fabulous and exceeding all expectations.
~ Latte
wv - ejacilsm. over excitement over [r]ejected ballots.
A disquieting note to add here: Unless Franken withdrew some of his own undervote challenges, there are far fewer of those than we thought. If we extrapolate the 56-of-160 undervote challenges we saw today (41 other - 7 ex-Coleman + 22 Franken votes) at face-value, we get only about 150. For Franken's reporting to be correct, that implies Coleman has made under 50 such challenges?? Seems hard to believe. The "150" also seems to defy "mediapost"s discovery of 130 such challenges among 2500-odd ballots, when the STrib had mounted over 6,000 total. Relevant questions I see are:
(a) How many, if any, of Franken's withdrawn challenges do *not* uptick Coleman's vote count?
(b) Same Q for Coleman's withdrawn challenges.
(c) Were any Hennepin/Ramsey/St.Louis ballots seen today? In the break I took from grading final exams today, they seemed to be mainly from small Coleman-leaning counties. Ah yes, alphabetical from Anoka, as I can see tracking TheUptake's directories.
It's incumbent on some reporter to tally (a) & (b)---I'm not asking you guys to double up your yeoman's service :-). Some evidence about (a) is that Franken won 22/(22+34) = just-under-40% of his undervote challenges. If Nate's high-end estimate of 20% from "first principles" (and prior optical-scan recounts?) was correct, then maybe Franken pruned the bottom half of his undervote challenges---ones that maybe were "under-5%-ers" and hence less valuable than the 7/(97+7) = about 7% success he's had in his overvote challenges.
BTW, my exam grading (including proofs and essays) is MUCH more difficult than what the CB is doing, and since I'm checking the TA's initial grading pass, it's also a kind of recount...
Bottom line: if we're right about the previous analysis then it was a good day for Franken.
WV "ballys": OK, no repeat of my "Franken has bigger ovals" joke at TheUptake (which ballot was that?), but rather a reference to the casino-like nature of the proceedings...
Wow, this is complicated and stressful!
Thanks for the recent posts.
It will be very interesting to see how the Minn.
Supreme Court acts on Coleman's attempt to
stop sorting and counting the wrongly discounted absentee ballots.
Any predictions?
KWR, great point regarding checking the % of undervotes and their effect. I am running off to work, but will try to follow your derivations more closely when I get there.
Another wrench (possibly), is as it was rumored in the blog yesterday, Coleman is actually thinking about re-ADDING prev. withdrawn challenges based on what he saw fly in yesterday's proceedings. All over the local news channels this AM news cycles: BOTH campaigns are considering re-adding the prev. withdrawn ballots.
FWIW
~Latte
I think yesterday's numbers bode well for Franken.
He won 39% of his undervote-challenges and 7% of his Coleman-vote challenges. If we believe the Franken campaign claim that he wins by 4 votes if all challenges are rejected, then Franken must have challenged 93 more undervotes than Coleman (while Coleman challenged 192 more Franken votes). So, having a greater success rate on undervotes is very good.
If we assume that 10% of all challenges (withdrawn or not) are on undervotes, then Franken projects to 379 undervote-challenges (163 remain, 216 withdrawn), and 2899 Coleman-vote challenges (303 remain, 2596 withdrawn). Since each of the withdrawn challenges is rejected, the overall rejected rates become:
undervotes: (39%*163)/379 = 17%
Coleman votes: (7%*303)/2899 < 1%
If we apply these same rates to all of Coleman's challenges, I get Franken winning by 18.
Note 1 to KWRegan: don't be spooked by the low number of still-remaining challenged undervotes. Franken has most likely withdrawn more than remain, leaving Coleman a reasonable number (just under 300 total).
Note 2 to mediapost: yes, if Coleman succeeds in his still-remaining challenges at the same rate as Franken, he will win. But as you said, is there anything that makes us believe his challenges 467 through 1000 are just as valid as Franken's 1 through 466? My above assumption that the overall challenge-success rates are equal argues that those excess challenges will be rejected. If not, then Coleman's overall challenge-success rates will be much higher than Franken's and either Franken 1) needs to add to his pile challenges that could be accepted, or 2) he is legitimately going to lose.
I have no numbers to back this up but here goes... From what I saw a lot of Franken's undervote challenges were to ballots with filled in ovals for Barkley or Aldrich along with dots or stray marks in or near the Franken oval. Clearly they had no chance of success. I think it is very likely that these are in the withdrawl pile. Hopefully that gives Franken a higher undervote percentage in his withdrawn challenges pile than Coleman. Thanks for the good analysis everyone. I'm back to being optimistic again!!
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