12.22.2008

In Employee Free Choice Act, a Numbers Game for Labor

Why are we likely to hear so much about EFCA -- the Employee Free Choice Act -- a seemingly obscure piece of legislation that amends the conditions for the formation of unions? This is why:



The percentage of the workforce participating in unions has been in a steady decline for at least 35 years. It might be tempting to attribute this to the more broad-based decline of the American manufacturing sector in general in the epoch of global commerce -- and this is certainly a part of the story. In 1973, about 27 percent of the American workforce was engaged in manufacturing; as of last year, that number was down to 12 percent.

Even controlling for that, however, the unionization of the private sector has been in a precipitous decline. The percentage of manufacturing employees participating in unions dropped from 38.9 percent in 1973 to 11.3 percent in 2007. A similar tend has manifested itself in the construction sector, an industry which (until very recently) had been doing quite well for itself: just 13.9 percent of workers engaged in construction and mining are unionized now, as compared with 39.5 percent in 1973.

Public sector unions, by contrast, have had considerably more success, gaining membership throughout the 1970s and then holding in what amounts to a steady state ever since. Unions have also had some progress in hedging their decline in the service sector.

But the private sector unions, particularly in the manufacturing trades, may see this as an existential crisis. Unions are by definition about strength in numbers, and the unions worry about dropping below some critical mass beyond which they have no way to reverse their decline, and are no longer key players on the American political scene. EFCA, which makes it considerably easier to form unions (too easy, its opponents say) might be the way -- perhaps the only way -- for them to stem that decline.

And here we run into another sort of numbers game: the margin of error between the passage and failure of the bill in the Senate is going to be very, very thin.

In 2007, 51 senators voted for cloture on EFCA -- all Democrats except Tim Johnson, who was still absent from the Senate at that time, plus a lone Republican, Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter. That left the Democrats 9 votes short of passage -- votes which, in theory, they might now have. Johnson is back in the Senate, and they have picked up seats in Alaska, Colorado, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, Virginia, and are on the verge of doing so in Minnesota. That would give them 60 votes and 60 exactly, if and when replacement senators are appointed in Illinois, Colorado and New York.

Except that, Democrats are in danger of losing at least one vote: Arkansas' Blanche Lincoln, who has suggested that she is "undecided" on the measure. Arkansas has very low union participation: between its manufacturing and construction sectors, 6.0 percent of its workforce participates in unions, about half the national average.



Arkansas is not the only state with a Democratic senator and low union membership. Pretty much the entirety of the South is in the same boat, with the important exception of Louisiana. But, while there aren't many union members in Virginia, North Carolina or Florida -- nor in some states like New Mexico outside of the South -- Barack Obama is quite popular in all of those areas, which he is not in Arkansas. Arkansas and really Arkansas alone presents the unique combination of Obama being unpopular and the union movement being virtually nonexistent, and among the two Democratic senators in Arkansas, Lincoln is up for re-election in 2010, whereas Mark Pryor is not. It's not a coincidence that she's hemming and hawing on EFCA.

If Lincoln leaves the caucus on EFCA, the Democrats' task becomes exponentially more difficult. Arlen Specter's vote is probably safe. His circumstances are pretty much kitty-corner to Lincoln's: Obama won comfortably in Pennsylvania, and unions are reasonably powerful there. Specter, moreover, has received as much support from unions as almost any Democrat, including many of their endorsements the last time he ran for election in 2004. If he bucked them on EFCA, however, Specter would become public enemy #1 to the unions, which could contribute to his defeat in 2010.

But if they lose Lincoln, then Specter only gets the Democrats to 59. Are there any other Republicans who might flip? Three others -- Ohio's George Voinovich, and Maine's Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe -- have received at least $100,000 in union contributions since 2003. Another wild card might be Alaska's Lisa Murkowski; Alaska is a highly unionized state, and the unions have sometimes been supportive of her. If Sarah Palin decides to run against her in 2010, Murkowski will need substantial support from union members to have a chance of defending her seat. Still, all four voted against cloture when the bill came up in 2007, and if Obama's coattails would ordinarily be worth something, that momentum is mitigated by the loss of face that the unions suffered on the auto bailout, when the UAW's public relations effort when nightmarishly.

Most likely, then, the Democrats will need to hold both Lincoln and Specter, as well as win the seat in Minnesota. If any of these contingencies fall through, EFCA faces an uphill battle.

142 comments

RufusRules said...

Wow, you're up late. Insomniacs unite!

Fillibuster said...

Nate,

Are there numbers out there that you could crunch to indicate the possible effectives of the Emplyoee Free Choice Act in bringing unions back to life? (Perhaps unionization in states that pass pro union legislation, before and after???)

I think the EFCA is among the top 3 most important bills facing this Congress, when if comes to the economic survival of the middle class.

Interesting post.

hill.tops said...

THIRD

hill.tops said...

Sad, isn't.

West Virgina is one the biggest union states, yet it flipped into the theo-con column in 2000.

Peter` said...

Maybe it's time to see if the Republicans in the Senate are up for an actual read-the-phone-book filibuster.

It's also going to be interesting to see what sort of stand the Obama administration takes on the issue. From what I've seen on the internet, labour relations are one of the few non-deranged sticking points for the diehard opposition to Obama from self-proclaimed progressives. They just don't trust him to back organised labour.

Conversely, this is the sort of economic issue where the GoP can stick their heels in with a straight face.

It's going to be pretty easy for the new administration to finesse this if they don't really want to make a fight of it. If I had to bet money on it, I would say that's exactly what will happen. I don't, so I'll wait and see.

RufusRules said...

I really hope this bill can make full use of the Obma Effect to get passed. The union autoworkers just took a thrashing in the meager "bailout" extended by the Bush admin (after all the grandstanding by Senate Republicans as they scuttled the original proposal). The SEIU and UFCW do a pretty decent job here in Southern CA - not to mention the WGA! - but unions are woefully underpowered throughout most of the US. I think it's time for my (numerous) Southern kinfolk to engage in a letter /email campaign to their Senators.

RufusRules said...

Ack. That would be "Obama Effect."

Pinyan said...

I'd say maybe try to make some sort of deal with Lincoln where she votes for cloture "to make sure this bill comes to a vote" and then votes against it so that she goes on record as disapproving.

Seriously, if we can't get our own party members to vote for cloture (not even voting for the bill, but voting for the right to vote on it!), then what the hell was the point of taking over the Senate?

WV: aserole. For the benefit of good taste, I shall decline to use it in a sentence.

ceicher said...

I can't read your graph because the colors on the legend are only 1 pixel tall, I can't see what colors they are. This is especially problematic when the colors are similar (like the purple and black).

Walter Mondale said...

Yeah, let's have a new New Deal and EFCA is a vital part of it!

Graphs are really hard to distinguish.

fred said...
This post has been removed by the author.
fred said...

Is bringing unions back to life really the answer? Unions quickly move to the point that they exist for themselves and turn their workers AGAINST the company they work for. Listen to the UAW members spew hate about their companies.

I watched the UAW kill my town through pattern bargaining with the company, the UAW geniuses insisted on the same contract with a very healthy Deere and Co. and the very sick IH. They killed IH. What did they kill an entire company over? They wouldn't work one Saturday a month if the times got good - these are not geniuses, they do not deserve defending, we need a new model for workers.

RufusRules said...

ceicher, Mondale:

What browsers are you guys using? Try Firefox, the graphs look fine on it. (Or even Safari if you have a Mac.)

fred said...

They look fine to me on Firefox too.

fred said...

Morning Joe is dead wrong again. He says Biden does not know the Constitution and buys Cheney's BS interpretation of Article I.

Joe - you a a fucking lawyer. I know you are a partner and do know work, and know nothing, but try reading Article I (cited by Biden). It says the only role for the VP in the Senate is to break ties - this is exactly what Biden was referencing you republican, lying sack of crap.

RufusRules said...

Fred, not all union members spew hate about their companies, and the ones that do are either (1) justified (because they work for companies that are constantly trying to union-bust, outsource, reduce benefits/pensions/pay etc.), or (2) malcontents who are going to gripe no matter what (I see this every day in my job in the non-union private sector). The most prevalent by far are those in group 1, who see their standard of living cut every year while the CEOs and other executives of those same companies take home exponentially increased pay, bonuses, stock options, and more.

Sheldon said...

the graph is fine. the key is not.

fred said...

Rufus-

Workers do need an ability to represent themselves, but it is folly to think the Ford is building factories in Mexico, and BMW, Nissan, Honda, Toyota and all the rest insist on non-union workforces to build plants here. Have you ever worked in a union? My grandpa was in the railroad union. He was putting brakes on a train car, the brake pads were ten feet away, he had to wait all day for another union member with a different "job code" to come "deliver" the part to him. We will never compete worldwide like this! You want socialism? Join a union! You now nothing of unions.

IF you hate what CEOs make, you fix that in the board room from Wall Street and the White House - you don't just say if he gets his, I want mine - that is not a solution, that is extending the problem.

fred said...

WOOHOO - pay for no work! Great! This is how to compete worldwide, right? This is your model?

"As you read this, there are about 3,000 unionized workers -- down from about 15,000 two years ago -- employed by the Detroit 3 getting paid, despite the fact that they aren't working. While it's nice for America's automakers to have access to a talent-pool of available workers, it's also a major financial drain on an industry that's already reeling from a distinct lack of profits. And with new cutbacks and layoffs being announced almost daily, these "job banks" are increasingly tough to justify, even for the UAW. It's always been a bit of a competitive disadvantage, at least on paper, as non-UAW competitors like Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai do not keep such job banks. To ease Detroit's transition from bloated, money-losing corporations to lean "right-sized" competitors, UAW Prez. Ron Gettelfinger has brought up the job banks and their possible elimination. Will this be a part of the overall plan to become competitive that the Detroit 3 bring to Congress? We'll find out soon enough."

fred said...

Wow - the NON-union workers at the other auto makers are making as much as the workers in the UAW! Why do we need the UAW again?

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

fred said...

Now Morning Joe is lying about OBama's position on gay marriage. Obama is strongly for civil unions, you freakin' lying republican.

ecarlson said...

I found the legend difficult to read in firefox, but I expanded it. In case anyone is wondering:

blue - private sector, manufacturing
black - private sector, construction
purple - private sector, other
red - public sector

WV - horrate - the amount you have to pay Coleman to switch parties

RufusRules said...

Fred, where did that quote come from? Probably a good idea to cite your source so the readers here can appreciate the context.

Yes, I have belonged to unions, for the State of CA (particularly, the University of California, which has both staff, graduate student, and other unions). Both the staff and GS unions went on strike for various reasons while I was a member. While I didn't always agree with certain tactics of our unions (though I am a big fan of the strike!), I always appreciated the fact that we acted as a unified force, which made the University system (eventually) have to deal with us.

I'm not saying that unions are perfect or that they are immune to corruption, but most of them do represent the voice/influence of workers which would otherwise go unheard or ignored.

fred said...

...and don't think non-union folks do not value people. They probably value them more highly because they can develop them, whereas in a UAW shop the union codifies that people move to management based on seniority ONLY. Being better at your job has nothing to do with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way

fred said...
This post has been removed by the author.
livemild said...

could someone please tell me-

WHAT MANUFACTURING TAKES PLACE IN AMERICA ANYMORE?

this is so 80's. face it we have NO manufacturing. this whole union talk is about 30 years too late. america has LOST. lost jobs, lost the middle class, lost health care, lost safe products, lost, lost, lost.

btw-fred u suck
workers need no representation -what sick planet do you live on? try telling that to 6 year olds making shoes in some third world hole. or my great grandmother who worked in the fields with her migrant farm worker family-no home, no school, no medical care. you do know we are going back to that dont you?

RufusRules said...

Yo Fred, the website you linked to is an INDUSTRY webite. You may as well have linked to Forbes or the WSJ in terms of accessing a worker-friendly viewpoint. Of course they are going to denigrate unions. If you think that presents an objective viewpoint, you are silly.

hill.tops said...

Fred-

how can you watch that show. I just click over, and it's three FAR right wingers and Mika(blonde Alan Colmes).

Kay- back to ESPN II

RufusRules said...

Fred, there's a lot of material not fit for linking to here than can be found at 10,000 websites. Just because it's all over the internet does not make it true.

fred said...

Are you disputing the fact that their are job banks? You can find that info anywhere.

BTW - because of union rules, these job bank folks who are not working at the plant cannot be asked to clean floors, or do work the company needs done because it would fall out side their job description.

fred said...

Job banks are real, very real.

Here is the link Rufus, it is from Autoblog which is owned by AOL/Tim Warner:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/01/uaw-considers-dropping-job-bank-for-idled-workers/

fred said...

Do we need more job banks? LOL!

The UAW forced the companies into completely uncompetitive practice decades ago, and now the chickens come home to roost and they blame management. The UAW killed the golden goose. The companies need to declare bankruptcy to get out of their contracts with the unions and their dealers so they can be competitive. GM has a dealer network designed for twice the market share they have, but they can't get rid of them either - they tried to drop Olds a decade ago and the lawsuits are still ongoing with their own dealers, costing them billions extra.

http://www.networkworld.com/columnists/2008/121608musthaler.html

"The program started in the 1980s when American automobile manufacturers wanted to boost productivity by increasing the automation used in their plants and using more-flexible manufacturing techniques. Because the UAW feared massive job losses from automation, union leaders pushed the auto makers and a major supplier to create a form of private unemployment called the jobs bank. General Motors, Chrysler, Ford and Delphi agreed to put hundreds of millions of dollars (each!) into the "bank" so that displaced workers could continue to collect a paycheck -- whether they worked or not.

In 2005, more than 12,000 people were paid not to work. What's more, they received as much as 95% of their salary plus benefits, such as health insurance. All they had to do was go to their plant or a union hall every day and wait around to see if their former employer would put them back to work. Maybe they were assigned to perform volunteer work in their communities, such as sorting clothes at a donation center. Maybe they played cards with their buddies all day. Either way, they weren't making cars but they still took home a handsome paycheck. "

RufusRules said...

You really don't get it, do you? Perhaps you are a high-salaried, exempt employee, what with your GS and professor experience. Rest assured that you are in the minority, and that most people (hourly wage employees in particular) in the U.S. are underpaid and overworked in the jobs that they perform. Explain to me why, if I am hired and paid to write/develop software for my employer for 40 hours a week, it can ask me to mop floors or clean the company break room for an extra five hours a week because it is too cheap to hire a janitorial service?

fred said...

Hill.tops-

The mix is not good today on Morning Joe as the dems are all on vacation. That said, they did have the most political talk during the morning during the election, excpet maybe for Fox - but I can't watch Fox as a dem, the lies kill me. I have been watching CNBC or Bloomberg lately, but those have deteriorated to gigantic weep-fests about what Bush and Cox have done to the economy.

livemild said...

fred have you had too much coffee this morning or are you always way over the top?

my first real job i worked with a lot of men. when it got slow one day i was told to clean the bathroom. being a woman i guess they thought i knew how and wouldnt mind, but the men would. i walked off the job.

RufusRules said...

I reiterate from my previous post: I'm not saying that unions are perfect or that they are immune to corruption, but most of them do represent the voice/influence of workers which would otherwise go unheard or ignored.

Just because there may be UAW workers getting paid for not working via job banks, that is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater by saying all unions should be abolished.

hill.tops said...

Fred-

Really -- even CNBC has turned against Shurb?

A year and half ago, Erin Burnett was screaming that regulations were "inflationary" and if we wanted to keep the expansion going, we should n't impose any new regulations.

Nice job, Erin.

fred said...

Rufus-

You miss the point - if your company does not need you to do simple repetitive line work at an assembly plant, they should be able to lay you off and not pay you. If they are forced to pay you, why the hell can't they ask you to do anything? You should be thankful for an $80,000 a year salary, doing anything - I know a bunch of guys who would be - and I sure as hell would if I were in there position. My goal would be to differentiate myself from the lazy jerks around me. Jobs are not entitlements.

Yes, I am grossly overeducated - BUT the reason I am is I learned very young that you cannot trust a union or anyone else in this world to take care of you. You need to go become the person you want to be. I already had a Ph.D., why did I go get a J.D. at night? I watched a bunch of Ph.D.'s get laid off at a prior company. Be your own employment agency.

That said, I am strongly for social programs - and am absolutely thrilled that Obama seems to be the centrist we need.

Gene Ha said...

First off, don't feed the troll.

It will be very hard to hold onto Blanche Lincoln's vote on EFCA. Her state is the HQ of both Wal-Mart and Tyson Foods. They're among her top 5 donors. Wal-Mart lives in mortal fear of unions (W-M closed stores in Canada that voted to unionize) and Tyson is trying to crush its existing unions.

Blanche Lincoln's top donors, 2003-8:
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00008092

Tyson Foods entry at UFCW.org:
http://www.ufcw.org/press_room/fact_sheets_and_backgrounder/factsontysons.cfm

Wal-Mart entry at UFCW.org:
http://www.ufcw.org/take_action/walmart_workers_campaign_info/facts_and_figures/walmartandunions.cfm

I'm not happy about Sen. Lincoln's weak defense of labor, but that would be true of most politicians in Arkansas. Wal-Mart's Walton family is rich and politically active.

Ohio Senator Voinovich is up for re-election in 2010. I expect Ohioans will place immense pressure on Voinovich to vote for cloture on EFCA.

fred said...

This is a pet peeve of mine livemild. I apologize for the vigor, but I really think the UAW started to kill large manufacturing in the rust belt way back in the 80's. I saw the line workers who are still flipping burgers because they went in with the UAW. They were, and still are, friends of mine.

As I said Rufus, unions do serve a purpose. We sure don't want to be a country without regulation, or with workers being exploited. The union movement went to far, and is culpable in driving manufacturing out of this country. These guys have basically screwed their own offspring out of good jobs because they took more than their share.

fred said...

Fuck you Gene!

I am not a troll and have been on this board from day one. Where have you been?

fred said...

Gene HAHAHAHA-

We do need a union at Wal-Mart. Why the hell can't the union movement get one under the existing laws? To me, this is one of the biggest failures of the union movement - they seem completely unable to sell the need for themsleves to workers.

fred said...

CNBC is all over the map. They want so badly to say we have a turnaround coming, but then they get realistic guests that ruins their meme.

livemild said...

AP headline today-
STUDY FINDS 1.6 BILLION WENT TO BAIL-OUT EXECS

yet it is all the unions fault???
this absurd amount was given to 600 of the highest paid execs??? gee workers that medical insurance or enough money to feed your kids is way too much-take a cut. remember we can send your job overseas.
lets scream about that!

fred- you still suck

fred said...

livemild-

Who said it was all the unions fault? Chris Cox should be strung up and shot, with Dick Cheney. It is repulsive that our dem reps failed us and allowed bonuses in companies that took TARP money.

You guys really are not the people on this site before the election. I guess that is fine, but folks prior to the election did know each other.

RufusRules said...

Ok, you guys have fun fighting it out. I have to head off to my high-salaried, exempt, non-union job.

Perhaps if I had a union job I could actually sleep at night.

fred said...

livemild-

You don't get it. Health insurance should have changed years ago. Unions are required, but we need balance.

Thank god all the money I gave Obama in the primaries and pres election helped elect the right guy. He is a moderate, Bill Clinton (who I think was great) was a moderate, even George Bush I was moderate. We need moderates.

Nate - what happened to the posters before the election?

Did you guys max out for OBama? Did you work the polls? Did you do anything or just sit around and hope something worked out. Be the change.

fred said...

Have a good day Rufus.

RufusRules said...

@ Fred Did you guys max out for OBama?

Yes, I canvassed in Orange County (fun, I tell you), phonebanked like a mofo, and donated money to his campaign.

And I fully expect Obama to support EFCA.

Get over yourself with the "I was here before you" bullshit.

Tony C. said...

Unions can be just as idiotic as management, but are a necessary counter-weight to the rapacious greed of management.

Unions did not force the auto industry into uncompetitive practices any more than management did. It wasn't unions that chose to pay CEO's, VPs, board members and the top of the pyramid a billion dollars in the last 20 years so they could drive the industry into a ditch.

That is money stolen from stockholders, 401Ks and retirees. And don't start talking about differential compensation; there aren't anybody's decisions so refined they are worth a million or two million a month in added profit. Executive compensation and mismanagement are what ruined the car companies, not unions.

As for pay for not working: So what? This is what we pay unemployment insurance for, to pay us when we don't work. The auto unions negotiated against a common practice of Walmart and others, treating workers like an elastic supply and idling them at will to make various numerical targets. That is exactly what they should do, because they represent workers and workers need a steady paycheck, not a roulette wheel of idled days without pay.

Left to its own devices, as in the un-unionized Walmart, management rips off the stockholders with insanely lucrative compensation packages for themselves, and treats the workers like commodity products. Unions provide a force powerful enough to counter management.

If management then selfishly chooses to continue its own rip off and also pay off the union to shut it up, you end up with a dead industry. You wouldn't have this situation if the auto industry had shared the profits with the workers in the first place, provided a safe working environment and job security. But they did not, and continue to act like 1930's gangsters without any conscience, that only share what they are forced to share, regardless of the cost. The undeserved compensation they received in return for their short-sighted and incompetent management bears more blame for the downfall of the auto industry than the unions.

Once you exceed 500 employees or so, the one and only job of top management is navigation, and these captains of industry ran their ships on to the rocks. That wasn't the union's doing.

RufusRules said...

You have a good day too, Fred.

Differences aside, the people who post here are (99%) awesome.

JR said...

I am unsure of my stand on this particular issue (unions), but this is something that has bothered me for a while. Is it just me or is the whole process what should be at issue here? No one seems to bring up the ridiculousness of needing 60 votes to get anything done in the senate. Why has no one looked to change this? It is a major cause of gridlock. From what I can tell, there is no constitutional guarantee to filibuster, and even so, nobody filibusters anyway. I really don't see why this is not taken to the public: "gee, we would have passed this bill, but 40% of senators were against it. I think people would be up in arms, but it is never explained that way. It seems to run counter to most people's sense of democracy. Just my two cents

D said...

Tony C is correct. The corporate lobby has done everything they can to turn this financial crisis into a 'Blame Unions' movement. And thanks to lazy journalism and a Republican party that was willing to play absolutely no constructive roll in saving our remaining manufacturing jobs here in this country, it's been successful so far. However, unions are a voice for the workers. They are a primary reason we have (had?) a healthy middle class in this country, some of the safest working conditions globally, and a 5 day work week. They didn't force COE's to make bad decisions on products or marketing. They didn't force management to make noncompetitive decisions. They didn't lobby tooth and nail against healthcare reform which would have put US companies in a more competitive position globally today.

And most importantly, unions didn't screw the pooch by providing tax incentives for cooperations to move US jobs outside of the US. A globalized economy is one thing, but for American taxpayers to pay for US companies to move jobs to other countries is another thing entirely, and it wouldn't have happened if unions had any real voice in the process, which is why the EFCA is as important as it is.

The unions aren't perfect, but neither is management. We need give and take, and unions have been squeezed out of the picture. Our workers need a voice, or our middle class truly is dead.

wv-firetsi: what needs to happen to any CEO or manager that engages in union busting.

Tony C. said...

JR: Actually only 50 senators plus a VP tie-breaking vote can pass a bill; the rule (passed by Congress itself) is that 60 votes is enough to break a filibuster. The filibuster was not in the constitution and is a slang term from the early 1800's. The thing is that the Senate adopted a rule back then, saying there was no limit on how long a senator could speak on any topic. This made a way to block legislation by "talking it to death", like running out the clock in a football game to do exactly the same thing; maintain the current situation.

It wasn't used until the mid 1800's sometime. Once a filibustering senator starts talking, they can't leave the floor for more than a minute or so, or they give it up. This means they have to pee, poop, eat and drink as they go. We haven't had an actual filibuster in a long time, what happens is they threaten to filibuster, and our chicken-sh*t Democratic leaders give in, apparently to preserve the dignity of their office, when they should make the Republican's actually do it. The result is a de facto abomination of the constitution that now requires 60 votes (technically 3/5 rounded up if we don't have 100 sitting senators) to ensure passage of a bill instead of the usual simple majority by one.

One can argue that requiring a filibuster proof 60 instead of a simple majority protects the public against mob rule, but this Senate rule was never the intent of the founding fathers, it came about two or three generations later. Their intention, and the rule in the first 25 years of the Senate, allowed for debate to be terminated and a vote taken by a simple majority.

Note that the Senate rules of debate are determined by the Senate itself, so the Senate can change this rule or adopt a different rule; although such a change would likely be filibustered.

kevin626 said...

Fred - How can you bring up Toyota as some holy grail for non-union workers? Toyota is far from perfect. http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15182

I suggest you read that article to see what 'The Toyota Way' really is.

mhz said...

GREAT POST NATE-

Thanks now we can talk about socialists, progressives, liberals, conservatives, and then the monarchist without being off topic.

Timothy and Clarrissa-

thanks for the background on the term "Progressive" in pol talk. I sort of though "Progressive" was similar to Ms as a PC rhetorical solution (and largely ineffective)to real, complex, and problematic phenomena. I am much more comfortable embracing the term Progressive now - it seems to accommodate the fact the large scale systems (politics, economies, cultures) change and therefore the mechanisms for navigating them can also change.

@fred-

watching dysfunction of large scale institutions (unions, churches, universities) at close range lead to your many relevant insights (as would watching "On the Waterfront")

Still in today's political economy we need EVERY SINGLE hand on deck in the battle against the power of centralized capitol to turn every human being (not to mention every other thing living and non living) in to a resource or a commodity to be used and/or sold.

Marx was a something of a wacko as a political/social academic but I think he was pretty darn good economist. "Wage, Labor, and Capitol" is a good read.


HUM- how to simultaneously regulate unions like we want to industries.

Anyone got a suggestions for a good article on successful governmental regulation of unions?

Dertl-a turtle that like to play in the mud.

Juris said...

@Nate: typo: "A similar tend has manifested. . . ." Should be trend, not tend.

wv: shecona (and she doesa)

Mule Rider said...

I'm 100% with fred on the union talk. The basic premise of workers being able to represent themselves as a unified body to protect themselves from exploitation and stand up to corporate interests is good and I like seeing some kind of system available to much of our labor force, but the model that has developed over the decades that spawned belligerence and contempt has vastly overreached and have wound up shooting themselves in the foot and doing much of the damage to themselves of not letting their industry's compete worldwide.

Anyway, on a similar but mostly unrelated note, I'm breathing a bigger sigh of relief every day. The more the liberals are howling and whining about Obama being more and more centrist - or dare I say, center-right? - the better I feel about his impending presidency.

I'm finding he's to the right of me on a few issues - which I didn't think was possible early on in his campaign. This is really good news, though, as he's looking more and more like a leader who'll govern in the area we need a leader to govern and not let the pendulum swing hard left just to cater to a bunch of wackos.

So how does it feel, liberals? Your "change" agent is turning out to be to the right of even some of the most conservative Democrats.

Now that's change I can believe in!!

Dale said...

Unions promote mediocrity.

They take away the negotiating power of the hardworking, better than the rest worker. If I'm the best pipe fitter, carpenter, or any other profession, but stuck in a state with no right to work laws, I get treated like every other person, regardless of ability.

I'm good at what I do and want to be able to get top dollar for my excellent work, but some schmuck that barely slouches by in life gets rewarded the same as me - even better if has a day's seniority.

Josh said...

The percentage of public sector workers who are unionized is a deceptive statistic. More and more public sector work is handled by contractors -- think Blackwater versus the US Army, except for HHS, HUD, the IRS, etc.

That's why Bill Clinton was able to say that the size of the federal workforce was the smallest it had been since Year X -- work had been moved away from the public sector into private hands.

Did anyone else stop reading 'fred' after his 10th post?

sporcupine said...

On labor organizing, the count has one and only one Republican and one and only one Democrat maybe breaking party lines. Surely that tells us we're looking at a cleavage deeper than many that we discuss more often.

I hope the union leaders at the backbone of my party are right that card-check matters a lot. If this is their leading fight, I hope that victory would bring them major new strength.

Also, I notice a problem for organized labor: I don't KNOW how big a difference card-check could make. Their concern has reached me, but their arguments aren't reaching to a five-hour-a-day internet-based political junkie who's already on their side.

fred said...

Scorpupine-

I agree, I am not sure the EFCA helps much. Employers are indoctrinating low education employees not to vote for unions, and they use places like meat packing to show how bad it can get. I was unfortunate enough to take a college job at a meat packing plant second shift. It was a damn scary place that needed a union more than anywhere in the country, but I don't think the EFCA or card check would have brought the employees on board. There is a deeper need for organized labor to show what they can actually do for people, and how they can create jobe and not just make them go away.

Tony C. said...

@MHZ: Probably the best modern reading is "The Future of Management", by Hamel. It documents successful working organizations like GoreTex and Whole Foods that don't need unions, because the idea of unions are incorporated into the fabric of the company: At GoreTex you elect your manager, your managers elect their manager, all the way up to the CEO, who can be removed by the VPs at any time for failing to serve them, as they can be removed at any time for failing to serve their group.

Anybody can attend any meeting; compensation is based on objectively measured productivity, and your group determines the pay for the people in your group, also when to use your resources to hire somebody else.

This renders unions moot; management isn't rapacious and the books are open. A similar model works at Whole Foods; each store has eight teams that govern themselves, from hiring to firing to compensation, and can compare themselves to a comparable group in any other store, from earnings to business choices made. Of course they have to obey laws of OSHA and such, but they are trained and everyone knows everything throughout the chain, down to how well particular brands of products sell, or what other groups are paying for bananas. Everything gets measured, and compensation is based on performance, from the executive suite to the janitor's closet.

In these organizations self-interest rules; this isn't some BS stock ownership program, it is taking over 50% of the gros profits and distributing them to the workers, so if your group performs well you can earn 50% to 150% over the median wage for your job. And since your group has the final word on who you hire, or whether you hire, you hire well: The tryout period at Whole Foods is several weeks long even for a shelf-stocker or cashier, the interviews with your prospective team alone can last a week. This is somebody that will take an equal share of your group's money, and you have a direct interest in keeping out the slackers. At both Whole Foods and Gore Tex, you can look at the model two valid ways: There is NO management of assigning jobs or pay raises or doing reviews or making schedules or hiring decisions or firing decisions. Or, you can see it as everybody manages everybody else through high expectations for their own self-interest.

Regulating Unions or CEO's will eventually become a moot point. It may be necessary at the moment, but in the next fifty years or so I expect the adversarial model of Management versus Workers to die. It is a model for poorly educated low information workers that in the beginning of the industrial revolution we could not expect to follow basic business logic. That has not been the case for twenty years, and although society moves slowly, in America we will move to something like the Whole Foods or Gore Tex models, where the lion's share of gross profit is allocated to workers so that their compensation is highly correlated with their productivity, and mechanisms exist to cut out the free riders like the current executives of the auto industry.

The reason I think this is simple evolution: The companies Hamel describes are going concerns, decades old, with a significant competitive advantage. Their turnover is 5% of the industry average, their productivity is higher and their profits are higher. Eventually they simply out-compete and out-grow their competitors, and their model spreads to other industries. That takes time, and it is hard or impossible to change big established firms like Walmart or GM, but eventually their model runs out of steam; A GoreTex model takes root, and knocks them off. They may have a lot of momentum, but short-sighted greed is a cancer that will kill them eventually, and deservedly.

fred said...

Rufus-

In response to your "Get over yourself with the "I was here before you" bullshit."

I was here before all you guys, so lets not call me a troll. My statement was in direct response to someone accusing me of trolling, it was not you. I was posting before this site became popular, like back when Nate was building his model for the election. You know, when it was a polling site.

fred said...

@kevin626-

Toyota sucks too, and they do way too much with contractors. I am not putting them up as a holy grail, but they are the counterpoint to the completely screwed up GM/UAW relationship that has led to ruined industries.

Juris said...

I've had some exposure to union work -- retail clerks, teamsters, and other. Union work rules can be ridiculous. I saw this in the movie industry at one of the big studios. And I profited from them in my "high paying" job as a driver in that industry, which paid me 2.5 times what I was making in the "private sector." (Waaay back, when the difference was between $1.60/hr and $3.415/hr.)

But for my money the main value of unions is job security and not wages. (I'm not drawing this conclusion from the comparison of UAW vs. nonunion autoworkers in the U.S Even those nonunion autoworkers seem to think that the existence of the union shops in the north has helped to keep their own wages up.)

The alternative to having unions to enforce job security and safety is to rely on the government -- to enforce nondiscrimination, worker health and safety, and so on.

And we've see what a fine fine job the government has been doing when it is corrupt and simply has no commitment to doing its job.

fred said...

I actually think most of us on this board agree that we need unions, but they need to there to protect jobs and workers and not exist to help themsleves.

I was a HUGE Obama guy this year, and the SEIU money given to run ads in support of him was offensive to me. Unions do have a place in the political process, but there is some level of involvelment that is too much.

Simon said...

3am Nate? wow.

Also, TYPO: public relations effort when nightmarishly.

Should be 'went'

fred said...

I disagree to some extent, what we need to get away from is the every person for themselves mentality and get management and employees working together again. Unions are the opposite of this need in many ways, and promote hate of their own company.

Look what FedEx just did, instead of massive layoffs, the CEO took a 20% paycut, most management took a 10% pay cut, and everyone gave up 401K matches next year and they saved enough to keep most employees through the next year - hoping the economy will turn in that time. THAT is what we need.

fred said...

This computer at work does not update!!!

Oh well, I think Tony C has it right, we need a mechanism to bring employees and management together so everyone is pulling on the same end of the rope. Without that, it is very hard to be competitie globally.

mhz said...

Unions are very multifaceted and they can be extremely effective in combating the inequity between employer and employee. They are not intrinsically bad or wrong-headed.

Fred is right Walmart employees should unionize; the benefits of union workers at Walmart would go way beyond the employees. Unionization would substantially increase the tax base in communities and with luck result leads to an increase in education level with in those communities.

There were labor-based anarchist groups in the late 19 and early 20th that as policy would not bargain about wages- because they were most concerned with working conditions and worker "humanity" (ie time and sufficient autonomy to live one's life rather than just labor for a wage). I suspect those types of policies guided the IWW (International Workers of the World) up until the 1950's.

Current demands on workers time in the US (as I understand it) are WAY out of whack with most other "mature" economies. To me this is one of the MOST PRESSING issue of our day because we a individuals and as a nation cannot prioritize the raising our children. This situation is unacceptable to me and very dangerous. I have taught Brave New World more than once- it is a remarkable book- and not too impossible, look at the genetic and behavioral differentiation that has been achieved in dog breeding. We must have time to raise our children and participate in our communities while we earn a sufficient living. Unions could go a long way in making that happen. I don't mean to be a crackpot but people have to beable to


What are the rates of union participation through out Europe relative to the US.

Sorry it is "Wage, Labor, and Capital"(not Capitol). My editorial, spelling, and typing skills ALL need improvement.


@Tony C
Thanks I will find it!! I do believe that people of good will runng businesses with a strong, clear, intact, moral compass and realism are a HUGE part of a "more perfect" future.

@fred are you concerned that MR is supporting you vociferously? FYI-I would not lose sleep over it.

fred said...

mhz-

I have argued against unions per se as a perfect cure to all our ills, that said you may be right about work time.

I am on vacation and getting ready to go to the office to get ahead on next years goals.

As for MR, we have a long history of agreeing and disagreeing, I really cannot figure MR out. He seems so rational and then he comes out with some gay hating homophobe comment that just blows me away.

:)

Andrew said...

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask for a while...

So Blanche Lincoln, for instance, might not support EFCA because she's a Democrat in a state with little union participation, who's soon to be up for re-election.

But does that mean she would vote against cloture? Would she really help the Republicans filibuster? Has any Democrat assisted any Republican in any filibuster in the 110th congress?

I can understand someone like Lincoln saying nay on an up-or-down vote, but I can't imagine her helping with the filibuster.

hill.tops said...

Andrew-

it's about her contributors. Walmart will say JUMP and Blanche will say, "how high?"

polls_apart said...

As a lifelong Democrat and strong union-backer, we need to ask how we got through the period between 1933-1981 without the EFCA. The answer can be found in the policies of administrations, both Democratic and Republican, who enforced the actions of the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) and backed up its enforcement efforts. This allowed fair elections to unionize industries with much less intimidation by management. Maybe I'm being over-optimistic, but I would like to give the NLRB a chance to right the labor-management balance in this country the way it used to. I noticed in Nate's chart that the Bush I and Clinton administrations had minimal decline in union numbers compared to other periods (including the Carter administration). Although it is not on the chart, I suspect that the Eisenhower administration was a good period for unions. The bad periods for unions were the Nixon, Carter, Reagan, and Bush II administrations. What we need is some way to make the NLRB a consistent defender of unions' right to organize in a fair and just manner without sacrificing the secret ballot in union elections. It seems to me that management spies could exploit the non-secret nature of the "card check" to intimidate employees unless there is a strong NLRB to back up employees right to unionize. Of course, such a strong NLRB would also protect workers rights to unionize under a secret ballot.

Radical_Center said...

Regarding Blanche Lincoln D AR:

I think it can not be stressed enough that her being on the fence about strengthening unions has less to do with party affiliation and the redness of her state in the presidential election as it does with a certain retail operation in Bentonville, AR.

Not only do you have voters in AR who are directly employed by WalMart, but you also have a huge number of suppliers who live there that are also dependent on WalMart's success who are inclined to follow the company line to do everything possible to keep unions out of WalMarts.

Caution: Falling Wages!

R_C

mhz said...

Things will go NOWWHERE fast if 60 votes are necessary for every single piece of legislation. I have read three possible/probable solutions to this absurd situation.

1) Replace Harry Reid
2) Make the obstructionist "wet their pants"
3) Send Rhambo into action among our Senators

FWIW- I wonder if Rham is keeping quite because the he and Fitzgerald were collaborating fairly closely during the pre-arrest period of investigation of Blagojevich.

hum is Rhambo yet another Obama masterstroke??

I really hope Obama has a plan for this filibusterless-filibuster strategy of the obstructionists. I mean the man, Obama, has been watching it first hand; he cannot just be "hoping' that it will go away.

Mrs B said...

fred you are normally a good guy whom I agree with, but on this I think your early posts muddled the principle of whether workers need unions with the activities of a particular union that has too much muscle in the industry it's in. Luckily you seem to have rediscovered a bit of balance as the day has worn on.

Workers need some protection from unscrupulous management/owners. Strange isn't it that there is a real correlation between employers who fight tooth and nail to stop unionisation of their premises, and employers who don't treat their staff fairly?
New co-operative / partnership style companies are a wholly good thing - but they are never going to catch on everywhere, because a lot of bosses are greedy (my opinion, but I think looking around there is justification for that statement).

I wonder, doesn anyone know of any statistics showing lowest pay, average pay and CEO/board pay in unionised and non-unionised companies?

Brad said...

"It seems to me that management spies could exploit the non-secret nature of the "card check" to intimidate employees "

I agree with this comment 100% and think it very naive that unions think the transperancy is actually hurting them - I think it is helping. I sure don't want to be the 33% that votes publicly for a union, and end up in a non-union shop. We need the the gov back invovled, and the rest of these new fixes need to be put on hold.

PeteKent said...

The EFCA is perhaps the worst bit of legislation to come down the pike in years.

Simply put it would allow a union to become the official bargaining agent of a company's workforce merely by obtaining cards from a majority of its workers. These card drives are conducted in secrecy, without employer knowledge, and usually involve high pressure tactics by union organizers in face-to face confrontations, designed to force workers into signing the cards. Because there is no anonymity the employee often feels he or she has no choice but to sign the card.

In the past getting a majority of the cards meant then that an election would have to take place, out in the open, and by secret ballot where both sides could present their case -- not just the union. With the EFCA this election step would be eliminated and management would have no opportunity to counter the high pressure tactics of the union.

We have seen over the years how unionization has been the ruination of many industries and factory towns as the union bosses merely want to line their own pockets and feather their own nests in the short run while ultimately dragging down the industries in which they work.

This is bad legislation and violates democratic principles and imperils rather than protects American labor and it should be defeated.

Michael (mbw) said...

Nate- Thanks for running this post, a reminder of how on crucial issues that last vote or two is decisive.

For those who say that we'd be fine without unions, I suggest reading the recent Kos post (What the UAW Made, by Trapper John, Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:13:38 PM PST) on the role of the UAW in our national life. One of its more obvious points is that Toyota etc. are not paying nice wages that just happen to be competitive with UAW wages- they're forced by the existence of the UAW and the possibility of UAW organizing to compete.

Kennyb said...

Shades of the Striker Replacement, that would have prohibited employers from hiring permanent replacements for striking workers, huh? That's when Dems only had 57 votes for cloture in 1992. Clinton could not persuade Pryor, Sr. or Bumpers (from his home state) to votes to end debate, either as a candidate in 1992 or as the President in 1994.

fred said...

mrs b-

I am perfectly balanced. The UAW and the SEIU are prime examples of unions who have hurt the members - they need to be called out on this.

The idea that we somehow must toe the party line even when it know it to be wrong is silly. I also believe that alot of people on this board have zero experience with unions and have an unrealistic view of the true nature of the beast.

Pointing out we need moderation is exactly what I meant to do, and pointing to both good and bad examples of how to do it reinforces my points.

When i entered the discussion there was some kind of irrational union love fest occurring.

Moderation in all things, even alcohol (most of the time).

fred said...

mbw-

Huh? Toyota is in completely different locations and does not directly compete with the UAW for employees. How does your post make sense? I also doubt it is too hard to find very smart, if lowly educated, workers who want to go work at Toyota.

PeteKent said...

Totally agree with Mule Rider @833.

"Anyway, on a similar but mostly unrelated note, I'm breathing a bigger sigh of relief every day. The more the liberals are howling and whining about Obama being more and more centrist - or dare I say, center-right? - the better I feel about his impending presidency."

Obama has been surprising, but I am paranoid enough to be waiting for the other shoe to drop.

The bottom line, tho, is that he wants to be successful and knows that Liberal/Progressive polices are doomed to failure as they have no basis in empirical fact, but only reflect a sodden and unrealistic worldview that seeks to impose on the many the crackpot views of a few.

Obama is having his "Sista Solja" moment at the expense of the "the Gays". No one cared about them in the election and now it appears they have no friend in an Obama administration.

Beware my liberal, Gay friends: Once your progressive allies are able to make genetic testing and engineering along with unfettered abortion the norm, you Gay folk will become a curiosity of history. You might want to re-think your liberalism if it means your extermination.

The world belongs to the breeders!

Mrs B said...

hi fred, hope you are not aiming for moderation in ANYTHING over the forthcoming festive season!

The problems with unions that you cite are actually from the same cause as the problems that come from management - one side gets too strong. Hard to get that balance right.

Sombrero said...

The Employee Free Choice Act will be great for job creation............in MEXICO.

Mule Rider said...

Obama has been surprising, but I am paranoid enough to be waiting for the other shoe to drop.

And I totally agree with this statement. I think it's safe to say he's going to throw the far left at least a couple of bones to keep 'em happy. I just hope it's on a few fringe issues that affect very few people and aren't on things that could serve as a catalyst to further denigrate or deteriorate our national security, our economy, or our personal freedoms.

Mule Rider said...

Moderation in all things, even alcohol (most of the time).

That's gets my vote for Line of the Month!


wv: filiblac - not coming up with anything on this one, but I'm sure you can make some witty reference to a filibuster, which would be apropos on this site

Mule Rider said...

Moderation in all things, even alcohol (most of the time).

That's gets my vote for Line of the Month!


wv: filiblac - not coming up with anything on this one, but I'm sure you can make some witty reference to a filibuster, which would be apropos on this site

Michael (mbw) said...

@ fred- It's pretty simple. In TN, they can actually hear what the wages are in Detroit, via the telephone, the tv, and nowadays even those interwebs. Pay much less than the UAW gets, and workers start to think they want to get them some of that union action.

Some of your anti-union anecdotes make important points, but I think you've lost the big picture.

mhz said...
This post has been removed by the author.
PeteKent said...

MHZ:

Very few Gays bear genetic offspring. Their gene pool will continue to dwindle. Once genetic testing for any type of trait becomes common place it will be second nature for hetero couples to eliminate any issue that might possess the Gay trait.

This, coupled with the ease with which abortion will be available on demand to eradicate the unwanted, will conspire to eliminate all but a handful of gay people in "civilized" society.

This is what they call "the law of unintended consequences" I think.

Gay: the New Down’s Syndrome!

mhz said...

@petekent

FYI The world does not belong to anyone. Honestly that is probably the most damaging interpretation in all the of interpretations of Judeo-Christian ideology.

There are and have always been plenty of LBTG "breeders" out there, and many make great parents.

PeteKent said...

MHZ:

Forgive my infelicitous turn of phrase. The point is Gay people will eventually be genetically engineered out of existence.

That ought to make Obama's new Pastor very happy!

Is it what you want?

If not, you might want to reconsider the morality of abortion and the ease with which it is available. Sarah Palin ought ot be your heroine: She choise life for her Downs Syndrome Baby. Who will do the same for the Gay babies?

jdizzle said...
This post has been removed by the author.
mhz said...

@PeteKent

"The point is Gay people will eventually be genetically engineered out of existence."

I cannot believe that I am responding to this- but here I go-

wow I just realized you absolutely right PK!- whatever was I thinking.

wv-concess- the best choice of action when the discussion becomes unproductive.

PeteKent said...

I have never seen a Safeway in my entire life. But there is a Wall-Mart in every town of consequence.

What does that tell you?

"Speaking as a former union employee in the grocery business, I can’t imagine too many people preferring minimum wage at Wal-mart with no benefits over the $18 an hour I made at Safeway doing a similar job, with full medical coverage."

Other than the managers, who should be non-union, I can't imagine a soul in a supermarket worth $18/hour. That's the problem with unions!

Tony C. said...

@PeteKent: Bigot and idiot. The first thing they will test for is intelligence. Too bad we couldn't do that earlier, it would have kept you from posting.

Secondly, as a bioinformatics researcher I can tell you it is highly unlikely that homosexuality will be linked to any certain gene or combination of genes. In fact, the relevant event is not conception, but whether or not a fetus experiences an androsterone surge (a precursor to testosterone), controlled by the placenta, during brain formation around the end of the first trimester. This surge is normally present in XY fetuses, and absent in XX fetuses. There are tell-tale markers for whether this surge occurred or not during fetal development, and how strong it was, both in brain organization and other physical characteristics, such as ring-finger relative length.

Gay men typically had no surge or a weak surge when one was expected, while lesbian women typically experienced an androsterone surge when one was not expected. Further, the fault seems to lie in the development of the placenta as controlled by the mother's genes, not the DNA of the fetus.

And finally, unlike your shallow minded view, psychology and sociology results indicate most parents would NOT terminate a pregnancy at six months if they knew there was a good chance their child might be gay, which is about the earliest the likely presence or absence of that androsterone surge can be detected, and also the only thing we can say since no such test about a future condition developing is 100% accurate.

There are documented gays among every species of wild mammal where we search for it, including dozens of species surveyed already. If homosexuality was directly inherited it would have been a mutation that died out millions of years ago. It hasn't, and no matter how good DNA testing gets it won't be able to detect it with certainty in a fetus, so it isn't going anywhere.

Further, mammals haven't evolved any corrective biological mechanism to protect against it, which suggests it might have some survival value for the species as well.

The overwhelming evidence is that sexual orientation is biologically determined. But discrimination against others is wrong whether on the basis of biological factors or differences of choice; as long as the differences do not cause them to infringe on the rights of others. That is why I am happy to discriminate against you, because whether your stupidity is rooted in biology or willful ignorance, your bigotry does apparently cause you to call for infringement upon the freedom of other citizens, and for that you should be restrained.

PeteKent said...

Gone, acuriosity, just like children with Down Syndrome.

Gay people: going the way of the smallpox virus.

Broguht to you by Liberal Democrats everywhere who lomng to make the world over int heir image. So what if it means eradicating "the Gays."

At least Rick Warren won't mind!

jdizzle said...
This post has been removed by the author.
PeteKent said...

TonyC:

So they will test for it a bit later -- thrid month, you say. The you contradict yourself. The point is Gayness can be detected and eradciated wt the whim of the mother.

Heck, you Libs all want partial birth abortion so it really doesn't matter. Given the chance must people would abort a Gay baby.

We are headed to a society where we can engineer the perfect child.

Regrettably, being Gay is not what we would call perfect. Just look at the results in ultra Liberal CA where Prop 8 won thanks to support of liberals everywhere -- especially People of Color!

O' Brave New World!

Vince said...

A week or two ago there was a post about how cloture is not needed on everything and that you can often pass legislation with only 51 votes. Why is EFCA different? Why is it likely to be filibustered? Is it simply because it's such a hot-button issue?

Doug, the subway fugitive. said...

Is EFCA already set in stone? The way it has been cast in public debate - replacing secret ballot by public vote would be a downright PR disaster.

Tony C. said...

@PeteKent: No, that is a lie. As I said, the majority of parents are not inclined to abort an otherwise healthy fetus, and as I said, you cannot test for it with 100% certainty. So you are talking out of your ass, you don't know anything and have nothing to contribute except bile and hate mongering. You are living in a sad fantasy and making a fool of yourself, you might as well be drooling on your shirt.

Mrs B said...

DNFTT

Vince said...

This thread is about EFCA; don't allow passions over other issues to cast a fog over questions and debate on this one.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Cardcheck has zero chance of escaping a fillibuster vote. Even many Dems in western states are opposed.

Unions have destroyed many industries. They exist today to extort money from their members for political purposes and corruption. They are a relic of the 20th century. Its too bad they still have such a big role in government jobs. I have seen many family members jobs destroyed by unions.

mhz said...

@Tony C.


Will I find that research literature on steroid surges in gestation easily on PUBMEd?- I have never seen or heard anything like it- but I have not been looking for it. Sounds like great reading.

imho "fault" and ""protect against" might not be the best choice of words-

also imho homosexuality need not be a evolutionary dead end so long as it one part of the behavior repertoire and not a rigid binary state. An individual with a strong behavioral tendency even with minimal behavior plasticity can be very successful reproductively, particularly if the individual is male.

Nevertheless-thanks for taking up the cause-I had to let it go. I hope you had time to eat your lunch.

Jack-be-nimble said...

All this talk about Homosexuality is GREAT NEWS for

Lucifer!!!!!!!

benh57 said...

Nate, the lines on the unionized graph's key are too thin. I can't tell what color they are.

Rick said...

I hate to tell everyone this, but the EFCA as drafted isn't worth a huge fight over. The reason is simple: it won't increase unionization. It didn't increase unionization in Ontario, Canada, for example.

The parts of the NLRA regarding the secret ballot elections simply need to be changed to make the elections occur much quicker, and more teeth need to be put in to deter misconduct.

The problem with the card checks is (and you'll see this) they can be used to decert just as quickly.

green libertarian said...

Very interesting discussion, less the bigoted trolls.

Disclosure: The summer after high school, I worked as a scab when my dad(IBEW)'s best friend's company was struck. Hey, I needed the money for college. I was teamed up with the company president, of all people, and we were filling vending machines in downtown el-lay. The president bounced that van off of many a corner and other service vehicles in those crowded alleys.

3 years later, my father became disabled, and the family needed my income to survive. I quit college, moved back home, and my father's friend got me a job at the vending company. I was a Teamster for about a year, then returned to college when the family's financial situation stabilized. Near as I can tell, our local had no meetings, no communications with members, except a quarterly newsletter.

I have mixed feelings about cardcheck, but as mentioned, hope the NLRB is refocused on protecting employees from nefarious actions of employers.


WHAT MANUFACTURING TAKES PLACE IN AMERICA ANYMORE?

-livemild

Yes, there is still manufacturing still taking place in America. This furniture and home accessories company is a $100M/yr operation. And it's run by two out-gay men, the employees are paid well, given good benefits.

http://www.mgandbw.com/aboutus_new.asp


Mr. Gold also founded this organization:

Faith In America, Inc. also has confidence in the democratic ideals embodied in The Constitution of the United States. These ideals guarantee equality, freedom and protection to all U.S. citizens without regard to religious teaching. By exposing and rebuking religion-based bigotry, Faith In America, Inc., appeals to and honors both the authentic religious and democratic ideals that rest in the soul of the American people. Faith In America, Inc. is working with churches and other organizations across the country to publicly expose religion-based bigotry against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people and to inform the public how women, people of color and people of minority religions have been mistreated similarly by religion in the past.

http://www.faithinamerica.info/gold.php

Then there's this:

Gay managers work differently than straight managers, and they may be better in some respects, says University of Southern California teacher and researcher Kirk Snyder, author of The G Quotient: Why Gay Executives Are Excelling as Leaders...and What Every Manager Needs to Know (Jossey-Bass). Snyder who personally interviewed 150 gay male executives who have come out in the workplace, the largest study of its kind. His theory is that such gay corporate leaders show higher levels of seven desirable management skills, such as creativity, intuition and collaboration.

http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/press/WhyGayExecutivesBecomeBetterManagers.html

Barry Rubinowitz said...

While the Democrats, due to the need to keep her seat and the politics of her state, are unlikely to come down hard on Lincoln if she votes against cloture, the Republicans will make this the "are you a Republican?" vote of the session. If Spector votes for cloture, his next move will have to be switching parties, because he will get no support from the party in his certain 2010 primary in PA, which he will lose. I would expect him to vote with the GOP on cloture.

Tony C. said...

The manufacturing that takes place in America is innovation and invention, including new business models, new computer applications, entertainment in the form of movies and games, etc.

Just because it isn't an object doesn't mean it isn't valuable. America has been promoted from assembly line worker to manager; what we do is manage the work of others, and what we "manufacture" is understanding and efficiency. These lead to correct predictions about demand, less wasted effort, and more customer satisfaction. These are more valuable than assembly line work, that is why they pay higher than assembly line work. We don't need people to weld frames or tighten lug nuts, we have robots to do that for twenty cents an hour. We need people to program robots and devise robotic assembly lines.

E said...

always so many comments here...

Nate, why do you except Louisiana purely based on stats from the construction and manufacturing sectors?

The AFL-CIO puts LA's total union participation rate at a pathetic 6.4%, in line with or worse than the rest of the South.

This is roughly confirmed by stats from the bureau of labor statistics.

David Vitter came out against the big 3 bailout even though Louisiana has a GM plant and hundreds of UAW members because unions are a political liability to a certain degree here.

I don't think Landrieu's vote can be considered safe for the EFCA.

green libertarian said...

Oh, and the foreign transplants (auto manufacturers) were given hundreds of millions in corporate welfare mostly from Republican controlled states in the south, in order to build their plants there.

Such tax-breaks have decimated the coffers of those states, resulting in appalling schools and crumbling infrastructure.

One of the Big 3's biggest costs IS employee and retiree healthcare. As a proof of concept of single-payer healthcare, in reorganization, I'd suggest all those folks are put into the low administrative cost Medicare (with modifications as necessary to closely match existing benefit coverages.)

At least we'd know where that money was going. We don't where a dollar of $350B Paulson handed out to his cronies in Wall Street went.

David said...

It's pretty simple. In TN, they can actually hear what the wages are in Detroit, via the telephone, the tv, and nowadays even those interwebs. Pay much less than the UAW gets, and workers start to think they want to get them some of that union action.

Only if those rednecks want to end up destroying the companies they work for.

David said...

Unions promote mediocrity.

Exactly!

leites said...

As I recall, this is exactly what happened the last time there was a chance to pass right-to-organize legislation in the Senate (1993/94), when it fell two votes short (58) because the two Democratic senators from Arkansas voted against cloture.

Tony C. said...

Unions promote mediocrity

No, the typical american business promotes mediocrity, by removing any incentive for workers to work hard and advance. Walmart isn't unionized, but I know from relatives that work there, they don't do one thing to make workers want to work there, and their rules are designed to stifle innovation and thwart any attempt to do anything other than exactly what they are told to do. Their schedules are computer generated and screw up the lives of their workers and make it impossible to work there for some of them; or changes their bus commute to over an hour each way.

Mediocrity is the result of a lack of effort to excel, and when excelling has no reward, or even incurs penalties (as it does at Walmart), nobody excels.

What promotes mediocrity is standardization of duties and pay based on synthetically designed "roles" and thus not engaging people's brains. Now that may be a hallmark of union thinking, but that is in response to management's original sin of exploiting their power over captive workers and over-working them or putting them in danger. Unions and standardization were one solution to that, but not the only solution.

So yeah, you can say Unions promote mediocrity, but Management greed and sociopathy promotes Unions.

-EV said...

I haven't had a chance to read the comments yet, but I have a few ideas re: process and politics on the EFCA issue, and will try to post later.

As a preview, I predict that EFCA will pass and be signed into law, but with the following modifications:

1.) Secret ballot elections will be retained, but on an extremely truncated (e.g. "Canadian-style" campaign schedule).

2.) The period leading to mandatory interest arbitration following impasse will be extended from the EFCA bill introduced in the 110th Congress.

3.) The enforcement penalties provisions will be modified in several respects (e.g. to permit monetary damages not just against employers, but against labor organizations commiting extreme ULPs as well)

4.) The NLRB will receive a huge infusion of new funding to carry out its expanded mission.

5.) There will be an effort to change the law such that NLRB Member terms do not expire until a successor is confirmed. Currently, the Board has only 2 members due to holds in the Senate. This membership issue has debilitated the Board over the past few years, and potentially imperiled a number of its decisions legally (since a 2 member Board acting as a quorum of a 3 member Board may not have actual authority under law -- though no court has ruled on this issue yet AFAIK).

1sunnyday said...

Nate, I think you're over analyzing this.

Senators can vote for cloture and against the final measure, it's not that uncommon.

A bill this important to the Democrats will see ALL the Dems voting for cloture. Were a single "lone wolf" Democratic Senator keeps this bill from cloture, there would not be a doghouse remote enough to describe that Senator's loss of political juice. Pet projects, committee seats, election funding would all be risked by taking a "lone wolf" stand against the party on such a landmark issue.

Arkansas' Blanche Lincoln and a few other Democratic Senators will be under heavy pressure from all sides. The easiest thing for them to do will be to split the baby, vote for cloture and against the measure. In the final analysis, those Senators will be able to say they voted against the bill.

Once cloture is achieved, as many as nine Democrats could probably vote against the final bill while still ensuring its passage. Such political cover doesn't come for free, splitting one's vote on this would certainly raise the ire of the unions. I can't imagine a very high number of Democratic senators would be willing to risk the consequences. For those small few like Blanch Lincoln, a split vote is a likely strategy.

green libertarian said...

Various elements of EFCA will be horse-traded with the Republicans, as will the bill itself in return for the Dems dropping some other bill the Republicans don't want passed.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Hey mister.....Are you voting for the union? You know how important the union is to your wages and safety. You gotta remember, there are plenty of other people that would gladly take your spot in the union. You want to be able to support that new family of yours right? Remember, many others are signing up for the union. If the union passes and you are shown to have voted against you will lose your benefits......I know where you live......

Just sign the union card so we know you are with us.

Dale said...

Obama's choice for Labor Secretary (Hilda Solis) has said she will fight for EFCA, but recently criticized the Congressional Hispanic Caucus for not having SECRET ballots.

Can you spell hypocrisy?

coolstar said...

How about a little help for us who are "color challenged"? :). Such as NOT color-coding graphs but using different line symbols instead? Even many who are not color blind prob'ly have trouble seeing the colors when the legend lines are so thin.....

-EV said...

@ mhz - Your three proposed "options" for responding to the need for 60 votes on major legislation are not actual options. If you take a look at the comments to Nate's post a few days ago about filibuster rates, you'll see why.

@ 1sunnyday - Agree in full that there will be a significant number of Senators who split their votes on EFCA (e.g. yea on cloture, nay on final passage). EFCA in its current form will not draw any GOP votes on cloture other than Specter, and even he is not a definite vote considering the extremely tough situation he faces in 2010 (pressure in the primary from the right and in the general from the left). Voinovich is a pretty staunch pro-business guy, and seems like an unlikely candidate to support cloture. Snowe and Collins maybe. I think a few of those moderate R's begin to change their votes when you amend EFCA to reinstate the secret ballot requirement in Sec. 9 of the NLRA and do a few of the other things I outlined above. When those amendments are incorporated and the D's make other related legislative trades, you'll see 61-65 Senators support cloture.

Once cloture is achieved, there'll be all kinds of amendments from the left and the right. Some hyper-liberal northern members may try to repeal Sec. 14(b) of NLRA, which grants states the right to adopt right-to-work status. These efforts, if they're executed, will fail miserably. There may also be a move from the left to legislatively overturn Chamber of Commerce v. Brown, a recent SCOTUS case which struck down CA's statute prohibiting state contractors from using state funds to promote or speak against unionization. Unsure as to how such an amendment would come out, but it'd probably fail as well.

Final thought: Unions have all kinds of problems, as we've seen in recent decades. That said, I do think that in at least some contexts they play a constructive role. Many of our workplace safety and environmental statutes rely extensively on private enforcement, since the agencies charged with governmental enforcement are leanly staffed. Unions help fill this void by providing third party oversight and grievance/litigation actions necessary to enforce OSHA, etc.

1sunnyday said...

@ Jack-be-nimble and others.

This fight has absolutely nothing to do with ballot secrecy. Nothing at all. All this talk of secrecy is an issue fabricated by the anti-union forces to make the bill seem undemocratic. The truth is far more complicated and unseemly.

The pro-union forces don't really want non-secret ballots, they just want a system that can't be gamed by employers. The anti-union forces don't give a damn about secrecy at all, they just want to keep unions out.

Anyone that tells you corporate management is truly concerned about worker's secrecy in this is lying. These anti-union forces are the only players even mentioning the secrecy issue.

So why are the unions asking for a non-secret instant vote? Long experience has proven that under current US law, an election, any election, secret ballot or not, just doesn't work. Elections have to be planned, elections take times, that time allows employers to bring in union busting "consultants". These consultants are extremely good at delaying a vote as long as possible. Their goal is to see that the vote never happens at all. They use every possible tactic to identify the "ringleaders" of the union and have the employer come up with a reason to fire them. When a single branch or store is thought to be unionizing, the company will ensure that store has high employee turnover, which naturally dilutes the percentage of pro union employees.

Companies fighting against unionization force employees to attend on-the-clock meetings with non-stop scare tactics about unionization. Those attempting to unionize are do not have the right to hold workplace counter meetings. Further, companies can fire union organizers with the most minimal of consequences. The penalties are so inconsequential and delayed to be almost meaningless. When a penalty is given, it's often years later. The large companies spend far more on consultants than they do on fines for firing union organizers.

The system is so sharply tilted against unionization that it is clearly impossible to form a union in great many US workplaces. How impossible? There is not a single unionized Wal Mart in the entire US.

The unions simply want a level playing field, they want a chance. They realize that any system requiring a planned election (secret or not) is highly susceptible to gamesmanship. I suppose a bill could be written to try to plug the loopholes and level the playing field. Such a bill would be very, very unlikely to plug all the loop holes. The big corporations would have huge incentive to spend tremendous amounts of money finding any loophole or any reason to keep parts of such legislation in the courts. The unions realize that if just a single major loophole remained, companies could continue their current practice of completely and totally shutting out unions.

This is why the unions want card check, which is really nothing more than an 'instant' election. The unions' goal isn't to remove secrecy, it's to bring about instancy. They want a vote held immediately, without giving a company time to bring in union busting consultants, without giving a company the time to fire union organizers, without giving a company the time to move union-supporting employees to other locations or make a lot of redundancies. It's thought to be impossible (or very difficult) to have such instancy while also having secrecy.

The lack of secrecy is not the goal. The lack of secrecy is just a consequence an instant election. A consequence that has only become necessary because large US corporations have made it literally impossible to form a union.

Perhaps had these corporations given the unions a few crumbs, a few stores, made unionization not completely impossible, card check wouldn't have as much support as it does. The big corporations got greedy. The fact that the largest employer in the US doesn't have a single unionized store gives card check more ammunition than almost any other factor.

Jack-be-nimble said...

1sunnyday, you are either foolishly ignorant or naive.

Whether Card check will be successful or not is unknown. You need to read the history of it and the reasons it was eliminated before you come on here and blather such nonsense.

Please read the history, then you can comment.

1sunnyday said...

@ Jack-be-nimble

Nice come back, really...

So I'm wrong, and you're right, and "I" need to research all the ways I'm wrong? You're joking, right?

Saying "you're wrong, I'm right" isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

So how exactly are my points wrong? Is there a clandestine Wal Mart somewhere in the US that has secretly unionized?

Unless you can provide some counter points, I'll have to put you in the category of faithful Republicans that know unions are evil because for the simple reason that they've always known unions were evil.

Simply stating that big business, free enterprise, small government, few regulations and NO UNIONS are good for the country, is a whole lot different from being able to explain exactly precisely why those policies are best course of action.... You've done zero explaining.

The truth is that we've been traveling the pro-business at all costs road for over a decade, the entire nation can see just how "well" its worked out for us.

Low regulation government has screwed up the country to an extreme degree. The public is more than ready to give something else a try. You can't even explain why you don't like card check, good luck trying to stop it.

-EV said...

1sunnyday said: This fight has absolutely nothing to do with ballot secrecy. Nothing at all. All this talk of secrecy is an issue fabricated by the anti-union forces to make the bill seem undemocratic. The truth is far more complicated and unseemly.

The language of EFCA (H.R. 800, 110th Congress) clearly dictates otherwise. Currently, § 9(c) of the National Labor Relations Act (“NLRA”) allows any labor organization to petition for an election in which employees can exercise their § 7 rights by deciding whether or not they want to unionize. Section 2 of EFCA amends § 9(c) of the NLRA by dictating that when a labor organization files petition accompanied by authorization cards signed by a majority of the bargaining unit “the Board shall not direct an election but shall certify the individual or labor organization as the representative…” The direct and inescapable consequence of this change in the law would be to eliminate secret ballot elections in labor organizing campaigns. If EFCA “has absolutely nothing to do with ballot secrecy,” then why does § 2 of EFCA amend the NLRA with respect to ballot secrecy? The facts simply contradict your argument.

The pro-union forces don't really want non-secret ballots, they just want a system that can't be gamed by employers. The anti-union forces don't give a damn about secrecy at all, they just want to keep unions out.

You are conflating two issues here. It may very well be true that employers do want a system that enables them to keep unions out. Even if we assume that to be true (a safe assumption, I agree), that does not say anything whatsoever regarding EFCA’s impact on secret ballot voting. If pro-union forces want a system that gives them a better shot at organizing, they have every right to work towards that end. Eliminating the secret ballot, a fundamental feature of American democratic decision making, however, is far from a necessary component of such an effort.

So why are the unions asking for a non-secret instant vote? Long experience has proven that under current US law, an election, any election, secret ballot or not, just doesn't work. Elections have to be planned, elections take times, that time allows employers to bring in union busting "consultants". These consultants are extremely good at delaying a vote as long as possible. Their goal is to see that the vote never happens at all. They use every possible tactic to identify the "ringleaders" of the union and have the employer come up with a reason to fire them. When a single branch or store is thought to be unionizing, the company will ensure that store has high employee turnover, which naturally dilutes the percentage of pro union employees.

The solution to these problems is not eliminating free choice in a secret ballot. The solution to these problems is to amend the law to directly address the problems you identify. Direct changes would include the following:

(1)Requiring equal time for both pro- and anti-union presentations during organizing campaigns. You are correct that under current law, employers may require employees to attend anti-union presentations during work hours. Unions, however, under the Republic Aviation and Lechmere standards, are able only to conduct outreach off of company property (if by non-employee organizers) or on company property but during non-work hours and in non-work areas (if by employees). This amounts to an unfair informational advantage for employers, as evidenced by the fact that most unions do not petition for an election until they’ve got signed authorization cards from 70+% of the bargaining unit (with the expectation that 20-odd percent will change sides during the campaign). Congress would be right to remedy this imbalance.

(2)Setting a somewhat shorter campaign period in law. Right now much of the law with respect to the length and nature of organizing campaigns is left to the NLRB to establish through case-by-base adjudication. Congress can easily, however, override that Board precedent by setting new terms in statute. EFCA can help by setting some guidelines as regards the maximum duration of campaigns, etc. That said, during a campaign, employers should have every right to speak their side of the story. Like all elections, representation elections are best when the voters are as informed as possible, and allowing employer speech serves that end just as much as allowing union speech does.

(3)Current law already has robust protections for union members who choose to exercise their § 7 rights to organize, etc. See Budd Mfg. Co.; Mueller Brass Co.. Section 8(a)(3) of the NLRA explicitly prohibits employer discrimination against employees for involvement in union activities. If enforcement of that provision has been lacking, the remedy is not taking away the secret ballot, it is staffing the NLRB and its regional offices with better members, or perhaps giving the NLRB more financial resources to conduct enforcement activities and investigations.

Companies fighting against unionization force employees to attend on-the-clock meetings with non-stop scare tactics about unionization. Those attempting to unionize are do not have the right to hold workplace counter meetings.

See (1) above. I agree with this point.

Further, companies can fire union organizers with the most minimal of consequences. The penalties are so inconsequential and delayed to be almost meaningless. When a penalty is given, it's often years later. The large companies spend far more on consultants than they do on fines for firing union organizers.

Fine points all. There’s a pretty good argument that both employer and union wrongdoing would be much more efficiently deterred by giving the NLRB authority to issue monetary penalties (currently under the NLRA the Board has only injunctive powers). To the extent dispute processes need to be expedited, EFCA could overrule Hammontree and allow some grievances to be exempted from internal appeal exhaustion procedures. Again, none of these changes to the law require doing away with secret ballots.

The system is so sharply tilted against unionization that it is clearly impossible to form a union in great many US workplaces. How impossible? There is not a single unionized Wal Mart in the entire US.

You are assuming that unionizing Wal Mart stores is a good idea. I don’t know if it is or not, but this fact alone does nothing to prove your point. The decline in unionization documented above by Nate could correspond with an increasing number of employees deciding that unions just won’t make them better off. The decline could reflect a view that unions have been a source of corruption that employees want to avoid. The decline could correspond with rulings from the NLRB that advantage employers. The decline could result from all of the above, or from other factors. But surely if there’s a case to be made that the law alone is the problem, you haven’t made it. Under current law, employees are free to do all the organizing they want free from reprisal. See §§ 7-8 NLRA. If some minor adjustments are necessary as described above, fine. But none of these require doing away with secret ballot voting.

The unions simply want a level playing field, they want a chance. They realize that any system requiring a planned election (secret or not) is highly susceptible to gamesmanship. I suppose a bill could be written to try to plug the loopholes and level the playing field. Such a bill would be very, very unlikely to plug all the loop holes. The big corporations would have huge incentive to spend tremendous amounts of money finding any loophole or any reason to keep parts of such legislation in the courts. The unions realize that if just a single major loophole remained, companies could continue their current practice of completely and totally shutting out unions.

I salute your recognition that a reform package retaining secret ballot elections could potentially work. As evidenced by the above, it is my sincere belief that such a package could succeed. Yes, there will *always* be loopholes and litigation. Giving the NLRB the appropriate authority to create interstitial law [via rulemaking or adjudication, either of which would be sufficient under the Administrative Procedure Act] plugging those gaps would address the problem at least for the most part.

This is why the unions want card check, which is really nothing more than an 'instant' election. The unions' goal isn't to remove secrecy, it's to bring about instancy. They want a vote held immediately, without giving a company time to bring in union busting consultants, without giving a company the time to fire union organizers, without giving a company the time to move union-supporting employees to other locations or make a lot of redundancies. It's thought to be impossible (or very difficult) to have such instancy while also having secrecy.

Then why not have short-track “Canadian-style” election campaigns? Those work pretty well, according to what I’ve heard. EFCA could re-write the NLRA to place a 2 week limit on election campaigns, but it doesn’t do that. Instead, it uses a meat axe where a scalpel would’ve been more appropriate.

Moreover, card-check is a far, far cry from an “instant election.” In a card-check scenario, the employer doesn’t even necessarily even know an organizing campaign is underway, and is thus prevented from speaking its point of view. Since unions are all about collective bargaining between employees and employers (see § 1 NLRA), employers can and should have a voice during organizing drives. Moreover, card check is flawed in that it practically invites coercion. Organizers can visit employees at home, or pressure them to sign under duress, or do any number of other things that are just as unfair as the bad employer behavior you document above. EFCA does absolutely nothing to combat or even deter unions from unfairly coercing employees from signing authorization cards. The point of the NLRA is to allow employees to freely decide whether or not to engage in concerted activity, and the NLRB works hard (or *should* work hard) to guarantee fair “laboratory conditions” in which employees can make that choice. See Gissel Packing.

There’s another problem with EFCA’s approach to card-check. It says nothing as to when a signed authorization card expires. Lets say SEIU goes and tries to organize a Wal Mart location in early 2009, but falls short of a majority. If SEIU comes back in 2011 and tries again, are the old 2009 cards signed by employees still on the payroll valid? Prudence dictates that employee decisions should only be valid for a fixed period, but EFCA makes no provision for this.

The lack of secrecy is not the goal. The lack of secrecy is just a consequence an instant election. A consequence that has only become necessary because large US corporations have made it literally impossible to form a union.

The repeal of secret ballot elections is NOT necessary, as I have demonstrated above. The push for card check certification is an unnecessary over-reach by the unions, and thanks to Senate Rule XXII, the ultimate result on this point will (likely) be that secret ballot elections will be retained in § 9(c) of the NLRA. That said, I agree that there are a number of reforms that could improve the balance in current labor law, and EFCA can serve as a vehicle for those reforms.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Well said EV. Well done.

Kym said...

Ahh, yes, right-to-work is one more item on the growing list of things I hate about Texas. Unfortunately, it's not worth it to leave while all my family and friends still live here...

Aquaria said...

Unions promote mediocrity.

Show me ONE independent, objective study that shows union workers are either less productive or do shoddier work than non-union employees.

I can tell you now that you won't find it. If it existed, it would have been trumpeted through Congress and every media outlet until you'd get sick of hearing it.

So what union have you worked for to know whether or not they promote mediocrity?

If you'd actually worked in a union shop, you'd know you're basing things on what you've "heard" about unions, from some pretty ignorant and biased sources.

Know what's the most disgusting part of the rest of your little screed? Most workers are capable and good employees, but even the ones who are good at several facets of a job aren't perfect. At least with the seniority system in the unions, you don't have to put up with not getting a new job just because the boss was a Methodist and you weren't. Or because you're a woman. Or because you're an ethnic minority. Or because you didn't praise the boss's wife's beauty enough. Or the boss didn't like the way you wore your hair.

Oh, non-union management hides their extremely biased and subjective selection methods behind some pretty slick little games, but they are rarely fair in their assessments. There are always--always--subjective factors that are beyond anyone's control in non-union promotion practices.

Seniority wipes that crap out. And again, overall, it's fair to do it that way, because most workers are good workers. It's only corporatist fucktards who think otherwise.

It's not the fault of workers that management is too arrogant/incompetent/stupid to get rid of slackers. It's really easy to do. All you have to do is follow the corrective practices as laid out in the union contract.

If there are slackers persisting in a unit, it's because the manager didn't take the steps he was supposed to take, in the order he was supposed to take them, to have the employee correct his behavior, and if that didn't happen, to remove the employee. Or he caved in the union negotiation and let the loser come back to work. You don't know how many times I've seen people who deserved to lose their jobs come back because management screwed up the process, somehow.

The union isn't to blame for that. Management is. Just like they're to blame when companies go under, not the workers. They're not the ones making the decisions about whether to invest in R&D or buy a new personal jet. They're not the ones who decide to make fleets of SUVs when oil won't be cheap forever.

Tony C. said...

@Aquaria: First, I am a fan of unions, but I am not a fan of seniority promotions, in fact it is nearly the stupidest standard for promotion and retention imaginable.

Just because it prevents subjective decision making doesn't make it good; it is completely arbitrary. Why not promote based on how fast somebody can do word jumbles, or high score in Scrabble? It is just as determinative as seniority at determining how productive somebody is, or how effective as a manager or team leader, and by that I mean not predictive at all.

I believe strongly in collective bargaining, but it is possible to do that and still believe in merit based and economic based promotion. People should NOT get more salary based on seniority, they should get more salary because they are more economically productive, efficient, make fewer mistakes, or make more right decisions. We can develop more objective measurements of worker value to the health of the corporation besides how long they have survived their job. Time in grade does NOT translate to experience or wisdom or greater value at all, we have all known dummies that never seem to learn anything; the workers that have one year of experience twenty times instead of twenty years of learning and improvement.

The union exists to prevent corporate management from hogging all the profit for themselves and the shareholders and screwing the workers into poverty. Everybody has a stake in the continuing operation and profitability of the corporation, and promoting people automatically on arbitrary grounds is movement in the wrong direction.

It is 100% in the interest of the workers to make the profit pie bigger, and that means promoting people and paying people based on merit, measured objectively so it doesn't leave room for the arbitrary bias, bigotry and prejudice you mentioned. The more profit the corporation makes the more we can demand as our fair share and the easier it is for management to concede it.

Union negotiators are famously tough nuts, but they fail miserably when it comes to negotiating with their own members. Just because something is objective doesn't make it fair, and seniority is not just an arbitrary measurement of worth it is a counter-productive measurement of worth. Unions should be trying to promote the best and brightest, not the oldest and sleepiest. A more efficient work force is a more profitable work force and if the union negotiates with management properly, a better paid work force. Profit and cost reduction and efficiencies and waste control all flow from the bottom up, and unions should be all about making the workers and the corporate leaders and investors a partnership in profit with a fair share to each.

egapre said...

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The Intellectual Redneck said...

The Employee Free Choice Act (card check) is costing jobs now. Many employers are facing the difficult task of what to do with their excess workforce in these slow economic times. Many are choosing to have a traditional layoff. My own company has been forced to have a layoff. However, fear of passage of the Employee Free Choice Act is forcing some companies to make the difficult decision to permanently fire employees. These fired employees will not have recall rights. If they are rehired, they will have to start all over for wages and benefits. Why is this? Fired employees can not be a part of a unionization campaign. If they have signed cards or sign cards in the future, these cards will not count under the EFCA. Most employers believe the 'card check' legislation will pass this year. President Obama supports this legislation and democrats control both houses of Congress. The House of Representatives has already passed this legislation. Employers are terrified of how easy it will be to unionize their workforces when this law passes. They are taking every step possible to prevent this from occurring. Unfortunately, this has a bad effect on employees who are being downsized. You can find information about what the Employees Free Choice Act(card check) is and how to fight back against 'card check' here.

Tony C. said...

@Intellectual Redneck:

Apparently, you are more redneck than intellectual. The EFCA will save far more jobs than it costs.

No offense to those pre-emptively fired, but this is like complaining about the shot that cures your otherwise fatal disease.

Since I started working 35 years ago, employers have grown more and more callous, calculating, and ruthless toward employees. Although I escaped the rat race through good fortune; the modern low wage employee is a virtual slave, expendable, exploited, emotionally abused. Easy unions will turn the tide against the grubby fisted overlords, and if it is no longer worth it to them: FINE, take your ill-gotten gains and close up shop. A group of their enterprising employees will fill the market niche for less, making more money for themselves and ripping off customers for less.

Let them form partnerships and compete against each other, better to have twenty small partnerships sharing the market than one giant asshole.

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