12.02.2008

Franken's Good Day Shifts Odds on Recount

Since our post earlier this afternoon suggesting that Norm Coleman was the slight favorite to win the recount, Al Franken has gotten three pieces of good news which cloud the picture and may tilt the probabilities in his favor.

The first is that, according to TPM's Eric Kleefeld, the Franken campaign estimated that it was just 50 ballots behind as of this morning, assuming that all challenges will be rejected. This standard is different from the one the Secretary of State uses, as the Secretary of State treats all challenged ballots as nonvotes until they are addressed by the Canvassing Board, effectively allowing either campaign to deduct votes from the opponent's total by challenging legal ballots. However, since the vast majority of such challenges will be rejected, the Franken campaign's standard is probably more reasonable.

I have also had conversations with senior Franken officials and been quoted similar numbers, and believe there is strong reason to regard the Franken campaign's claims as credible -- they are tracking every challenged ballot in every precinct, and have far more information about the nature of ballot challenges than is publicly available. (The Coleman campaign likely has such information too, but have been less forthcoming about it). In addition, being about 50 ballots behind at this stage would also be more consistent with the consensus of our statistical models, which suggested that while Franken probably remained behind, the race was much closer than it appeared to be from the Secretary of State's count.

The second piece of cheery news for Franken is that officials in Ramsey County have "discovered" a stack of 171 ballots that were never counted in the first place; those ballots returned a net of 37 votes for Franken. This is a very big deal; a net gain of 37 votes makes a huge amount of difference in a race that could easily be decided by a small, double-digit margin. If the 37-vote gain in added to the 50-vote margin that the Franken campaign estimated that it trailed by at the start of the day, that would put them just 13 votes behind with 8-9 percent of the state's votes still left to be counted. That is to say, according to the Franken campaign's methodology, the race will likely be effectively tied as we head toward the challenge stage of the recount process.

The final piece of news is that the Canvassing Board has instructed county officials to sort through rejected absentee ballots, and identify those ballots which did not appear to have a valid reason for rejection. This is potentially (although far from certainly) a precursor to those ballots actually being counted, a process which we estimated would result in a net gain of 25 to 100 votes for Franken (the Franken campaign believes a similar number of ballots are at stake).

All in all, it is suddenly much more difficult to make the case that Coleman is the favorite in the recount. If the absentee ballots wind up being counted, the opposite may in fact be true.

57 comments

ksatyr said...

Fantastic news, now if only it showed up in the public eye/mainstream media.

Pragmatus said...

I only hope there is a way that the Coleman campaign can be charged with mischief or attempting to subvert the will of the voters due to all the shenanigans they have pulled trying to "spin" this recount. This is typical Republican sludge--there is a straight line running from Newt Gingrich through Tom DeLay, Sarah Palin and Norm Coleman.

Blame said...

Mule

When talking about yourself there is no reason to start with Nate's name.

Or are you one of those sad people who pretends to be someone famous & sucessful like Nate?

boxium - new element only recently discovered in a balot box.

John said...

This is unbelievable. The republicans are really going to go beserk now. 13 down with 9% left? Wow...

EmonOkari said...

I have a sinking feeling this thing may just end up in a tie.

beyondcomedy said...

I think Mule is a closet Dem who can't bring himself to come out. I expect that this is what fuels his net rage.

ksatyr said...

Republicans always win in tight elections when they can suppress voting. If they fail to do that, they win by preventing or subverting the counting of the vote. The 2000 Presidential election would have gone to Gore had the Republican members of the Supreme court not suppressed the count in Florida. There has been a power at all costs mentality for a long time in the Republican party, ever since Lee Atwater arrived on the scene. If only the Democratic party had gotten a spine in 2000 and fought like our lives depended on it, then maybe we wouldn't be in two wars while listening to the sucking sound of our economy dissipating.

Guancous said...

Nate, you should sell your 2009 PECOTA predictions for $100 if Franken wins by 27 votes.

Diedin: Republican complaints about encroaching socialism on November 5th.

Blame said...

ksatyr

Dunno. Looks to me like this time it's all clean. The process has been well handled bar a little spin.

mingsing. Traditional oriental washing song for the anual sock wash. Said to be quite beautiful if listened to upwind.

andrew said...

Does Martinez declining to Run in FL make a Democratic victory in 2010 more or less likely? He's pretty unpopular, so its not clear either way, and the more popular McClellan may be a formidable opponent. I'm pulling for Alex Sink; she's got the Southern accent and will probably be somewhat competitive in the more conservative areas of the state, which is huge.

Mule -- stop being such an asshole. Make intelligent points; contribute something.

Paul Bradford said...

This is excellent news. Of course it speaks to the issue of whether statistical models do you any good since there is always the possibility that one or the other candidate may pick up some 'good news' that would never be predicted by a model.

When you say "13 votes behind with 8-9% left to be recounted" it doesn't give us much of a clue as to which direction those 8-9% are going to move the recount.

Dvd Avins said...

Why is Clinton waiting until After January 3 to resign (at least that's what I heard) when that will give New York's new senator less seniority than the entering class.

Kevin said...

Hey, everyone, I just found out that Mule Rider is very impressive . Really,. Very. Right Mule? Right? You are impressive, right? Wow, I know I'm in awe. Really. Such power in those words. Such impressive shickwa in your expression. What does shickwa mean anyway, Mule? Can you tell me, oh knower of all that is important and impressive?

Craig said...

OK, Nate, this back and forth is really tarnishing your reputation. You just simply cannot predict a recount of this variety. There are too many what-if scenarios.

ksatyr said...

Blame,

Yeah, it's likely clean, but the spin created by these fake challenges makes it look like Franken is going further behind each day. When Franken suddenly wins, the less clued in people will be outraged and assume Democrats did something dirty to win, with the repercussions being that future elections will be even harder for the Democrats to win.

Had the Franken people matched challenge for challenge and played just as dirty, there would be no surprise to complain about.

sherifffruitfly said...

Smacks too much of "I think Kerry will comeback to win" for me.

It would be wonderful, of course, it just seems more wishful than plausible.

OceanDog said...

Mule/Ass Rider has been pissed off since November 5th since good old Johnny and little miss Sarah were sent back to the desert and frozen tundra. Ass is just a sore loser, your candidate lost big time, not even reaching 200 in the EC! Ouch.

Gavin said...

Dvd Avins,

Clinton's appointment to the cabinet must first be confirmed by the Senate. It's possible (though unlikely) that she won't be confirmed, so she's not taking any chances. Democrats are still subject to a Republican filibuster, remember.

ssmith said...

C'mon folks, leave Mule Rider alone. It's completely obvious that he is desperately in love with Nate and is just trying to get his attention -- like when little boys throw rocks at little girls in the schoolyard.

I think lots of us here have a bit of a crush on Nate, but we just handle it better.

hill.tops said...

*

This is GREAT news for McCain!!!

pisser said...

Hey Donkeyshow:

You are a miserable fucktard (in the worst sense) and add no valuable opinions, analyses, or criticisms. Nate's analysis (as he has stated several times) is based on shifting variables that he has explained are extremely volatile and/or unknown at this time. I don't see why his added information indicating that new factors have/may influence the analysis (for or against Coleman) warrants any kind of insults you are hurling. It is like you just take any random opportunity to start cursing...wait...is this Zeigler?!?

ksatyr said...

To: everyone
Subject: Trolls and Mules


Please don't feed the animals, they'll just keep coming back for more if you do.

Regards,

k

andrew said...

I think we all agree its time for Nate to block Mule Rider, or he may just find his readership dropping off. Mule's been fine in the past--only launching into occasional outbursts--but his favorite elf must have been slain in Dungeons and Dragons this weekend, because he's become a belligerent, hateful asshole.

Mule Rider: grow up.
Nate: since Mule Rider will probably not grow up, its time to do what's necessary to protect your site -- block him.

Robin said...

Mule,

Peace brother. It's time to take a deep breath, come out, and admit to yourself and us that you do in fact have a blood-soaked liberal heart in your body. Admit that you like the idea of educating the young, rebuilding our infrastructure, and creating a new political consensus that moves past the nasty nasty right-wing vituperativeness we have lived with for so long.

Come into the sunshine, take off your raincoat and embrace who you truly are. You will find us humble and forgiving.

And if there is anything else you'd like to come out about (contributions to the Kucinich campaign?), we'll give you room, support and all the hugs your liberal comrades have to offer.

Later,

ssmith said...

"My personal vendetta towards Nate will not be quenched until I personally beat him into a bloody pulp and publicly castrate him. I will ruin this site if it's the last thing I do."

A classic example of frustrated affection.

pisser said...

Can some one say delusions of grandeur?!? I knew that you could.

OceanDog said...

LOL Ass Rider, mocking you gets you foaming at the mouth even more. Your issues go far beyond any candidate you supported (Ron? Ralph? bwaahaaha). You come onto Nate's site and call him a piece of shit, oooh, that's so impressive. How about you get your own site, provide statistical analysis of the general election, get invited to all the major news shows, *then* come back and start name calling. Yeah, ain't gonna happen is it because you're not worthy of shining Nate's shoes.

ABowers said...

Dear Nate,

Why does the SOS site show Al Franken with a 4,000+ lead in the overall vote count with 90+ percent counted. Hennepin still have over 10 percent outstanding so don't see how the 4 uncounted areas can make up a difference of that magnitude.

A fan.

Sean said...

I'm, in a word, the shit!

Which one, 'the' or 'shit'?

ssmith said...

"Are you going to come up with something original...?"

It's more fun to poke at the caged animal.

John K said...

Here's my non-scientific crunching for today (so far):

All but 5 counties have 100% recounted. 4 of those start tomorrow and Hennepin county is at 92/3% They might hit 100% before the night is out (strongly Franken).

My "throw out all challenges and back in the deductions" number: Franken up by 103. Now that's in the recount, where he started out down 215. Add to that the 37 net votes he picked up today and he's a whipping 75 votes behind!

I still say this is going to the courts and probably the Senate and I wouldn't be surprised they throw it back to Minnesota for a mulligan.

MNLatteLiberal said...

@ John K,
you cannot simply toss all the challenges, like your methodology does, because not all challenges take away votes from the candidates. See Nate's challenge primer.

The most "trustworthy" way to do what you are attempting is to go with the initial judge's ruling on ALL the ballots, which is what Elias is doing to get his numbers. At the top of the page, second paragraph, afair, Elias had that number to less than 50. Nate argues that even if that less than 50 number is 49, and we subtract these new found 37, we get Franken within a DOZEN!!!

FWRegan, are you reading this? Is your mind doing a little happy dance like mine is ever since 3PM/whenever you learned this?

~Latte

John K said...

>>Mule Rider will ever grow enough cojones to apologize to Nate...

Mule Rider is almost undoubtedly a kid. Nine posts from timestamp 4:51 to 6:04. Or 2:51 to 4:04 on the West Coast. Got home from school and has to stop when Mom got home.

From his language and need for vulgarity and braggadaccio, I'm guessing early junior high to early high school.

My guess... I'm just amazed Nate continues to let him post here.

Oh well... "love, patience, and tolerance are our code".

shma said...

ABowers said...
Why does the SOS site show Al Franken with a 4,000+ lead in the overall vote count with 90+ percent counted. Hennepin still have over 10 percent outstanding so don't see how the 4 uncounted areas can make up a difference of that magnitude.


Most of the ballots left are in four red counties which start their count tomorrow. There are 135,000 ballots in those four counties, while there are only about 40,000 (7%) left in Hennepin. The leftovers in Hennepin should net Franken some 23,000 votes, while the other 4 counties should give Coleman a net 27,000 votes. So up to rounding error, that gives you your tie. All this information is on the Star Tribune's website.

livemild said...

i still think that when the recounting ends the vote recount is going to have thousands more votes than were originally counted on nov 4 =this is going to be a big mess.

obsessed said...

Of the votes remaining to be counted - are they from red or blue counties?

Cris said...

I continue to believe Franken will pull it out and come out on top.

-- Cris
My site: Obama Wallpaper Archive

Michael (mbw) said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Michael (mbw) said...

Assuming that the Elias 'less than 50' meant 49, that would have left the judges' calls at C +12. In extrapolating the last 7% of the recount, we should exclude this big unique gain as well as the 30 or so gained in Eagle precincts. That leaves the net expectation of the judges' calls at C +2.

Obviously that's well within the statistical error bars of even a small number (say 100) of expected accepted challenges from each side. This is amazingly close to a tie.

Wonder what's in those absentees?

KWRegan said...

(< MNLatte) FWRegan, are you reading this? Is your mind doing a little happy dance like mine is ever since 3PM/whenever you learned this?

Indeed, I commented on this in the other thread. Called you out, too, for maybe being a bit optimistic on some of the challenges (at least based on what's visible after ID redaction)---though that was to make the big-picture point that anything within 25 puts the race within the margin of reasonable disagreement on the STrib ballots alone! Consistent application of standards might reduce that number to within 5, but then again the STrib ballots are under 10% of the challenged total...

I also updated Nate's table here.

So yes, it made my mind happy---but I have a separate professional motive for keeping nimble with numbers in human situations: in Alexander Haig fashion I'm "in charge of" testing statistical claims of cheating with computers in chess. My public site hasn't been updated in over a year, but privately right now in 3 windows of my quad-core I'm running tests on a case from India per unofficial request from there. As a statistical application it's far messier than Nate's in this thread---my model with 150 single-spaced dense pages of C++ code is still out of kilter after billions of regression iterations, and I haven't even felt able to frame its issues clearly to re-approach a professor who helped me early on (and who wrote a definitive paper on the Palm Beach 2000 election). Data yesterday may have jolted one of my core assumptions out of the water, so watching how assumptions get shot down here (like Manskey's expectation of 6,000 undervotes, and likewise maybe the Dartmouth study featured here) works as a kind of training.

Cheers! maybe we'll lift a latte in the Wayzata Starbuck's next time were at my in-laws...

MNLatteLiberal said...

@KWRegan,
I am in Stillwater, but will make the drive to Wayzata, provided it is not snowing :).

I freely admit to being too optimistic on this race and recount. I am using Elias numbers (under 50 as of this AM, acc. to Nate, above) and 73 over Turkey Day as gospel. I am going with the notion that rejecting the challenges and going with the original election judge ruling is the clearest picture we are going to get.

If you are referring to my recount methodology that had Franken catching up in the Strib 600 by more than anyone else, I agree there too, but I explained my rationale. I validated all the allegedly id'ed ballots, but struck down all the overvotes. But for a good reason: I know I cannot trust myself to be impartial on the judgment calls. I know the Board is going to be way more liberal (small l) than I was, and will work to discern the intent of the voter, which was admittedly visible in most cases I tossed. But that ought to break fairly evenly or in Al's favor, imho, based on the underpriviledged Dem electorate argument.

/Warning: off-topic/
I will read your prof. site in more details, btw, thanks. In my long gone youth I used to be a 1700 player, and my greatest accomplishment was tying a friend with a 2200 rating by getting him drunk mid-game and distracting him. But now I cheat in chess by taking moves over vs PC.

Otherwise, my interest in this election is purely personal - my wife and I have been volunteering for Al since before the New Year, had Frannie and Tomasin to our house for a fundraiser, and I was a Franken delegate to the MN DFL Convention with the rest of the family volunteering.

As to your statistical analysis, we used to be neighbors there as well: After finishing my doctorate in Cambridge, MA, I almost ended up at RPI (which is not all that far from SUNY Buffalo) with my former thesis advisor. FWIW
/end off-topic/

merzbow said...

I find it hard to believe that as many as 1000 absentees out of 12000 were improperly rejected. Has anyone provided any hard justification so far for this number (and the word of a particular campaign doesn't count, I'm afraid).

KWRegan said...

Hey, 1700 is good! Glad to see a chess fan---and also your great efforts for both Al Franken (we own 2 of his books and loved "Lateline") and on everyone's behalf in this exercise in participatory democracy.

And on the challenges, you may prove right, which would make most of the pre-recount predictions here look better. My point was the reasonable disagreement, ultimately meaning I think this is heading to a contest unless the improperly-rejected absentees break it out past 50 one way or the other.

KWRegan said...

Ah, I had Washington Co. geographically confused with Meeker, and so thought Wayzata would be on the way in. But Stillwater is near equidistant from the U Med. School where my father-in-law works, or St. Paul where we go often. Meanwhile, my new-post excuse is this K. Kersten humor piece which is actually good on the first page...and maybe Al F. will help N. "ick not orm" Coleman deliver the promised rebuttal:).

Michael (mbw) said...

@merzbow

The MN SOS estimated that 500-1000 of the rejected absentees should have been accepted.

BTW, on the straight judges' count, the C campaign has not challenged the #s released by the F campaign, so this really does look like it's coming down to a tiny number of votes.

What happened to my old prediction of C +55? Mainly there were the special new +37 for F, then the usual stats uncertainties.

reelgeist said...

Franken now needs to perform less than one percent above Coleman in successful challenges to beat Coleman. This is without considering the absentee ballots. I am liking Franken's chances. I wonder what Coleman will do now?

LDW said...

If Franken started at 215 points down and is now 50 points down after 92% of the recount has been completed, then projecting the same trend he will be 36 down at the end of the recount.

Add the 37 net points he gained with the surprise 171 ballots that had never been counted - and walla!

He is 1 point up!

My goodness, who needs the absentee ballots.

cmillerchicago said...

Great news! This is a real nail-biter. Even if the seat falls to Franken, though, that makes only 59. Anybody want to bet that the leadership has already opened covert negotiations with Susan Collins and/or Olympia Snowe about abandoning the sinking GOP ship?

jqb said...

Nate, you should sell your 2009 PECOTA predictions for $100 if Franken wins by 27 votes.

Franken is now up by 22. Just 5 to go ...

KWRegan said...

It's not clear even from TheUpTake.org's story whether the "22" is a report or a contention. By "report" I mean asserting that 22 would result from all challenges (including third-party) being dismissed, which will be objectively verifiable when all ballots are posted with the initial rulings.

This has been their practice in saying "84" and "73", but given their intent to withdraw 633 challenges---which would put the STrib tally up near 1,000---they would have a motive to deviate. I asserted in a thread long back that they would announce it as soon as they could reasonably contend that they were ahead. Of course such an opportunity would necessarily come before the "report" point, unless the "chunky 37" and other gains yesterday shoved both numbers across 0 at the same time. Which may have happened---I haven't listened to the press conference, and will wait for confirmation by someone who has. I'm just saying people---and reporters doing their jobs---need to be alert to the distinction.

One other bit of math, assuming the "22" is a report: Let V_C be the number of challenges that if denied would uptick a vote for Franken. Now these might not all be Coleman challenges---I noted one such by Lisa Fobbes, and maybe there are even a couple of Franken "sui-challenges", but we can say that the number N_C of undervote challenges by Coleman is approximately 3,095 - V_C, where 3,095 is the STrib's current # of Coleman challenges. Similarly N_F approximately= 2,922 - V_F for Franken. Now add 22 to the current STrib margin of 295, to get 317. Assuming 22 is a report, this equals V_C - V_F. Now we still can't solve for V_C,N_C and V_F,N_F individually, but we can do a "Net" calculation:

N_F - N_C = (2,922 - V_F) - (3,095 - V_C)
= V_C - V_F + 2,922 - 3,095
= 317 + 2,922 - 3,095 = 144

Thus we can approximately figure Franken has made a net of a gross more undervote challenges than Coleman. Using Nate's guesstimate of a 10%-20% success rate on that kind---or maybe leaning that toward or below 10% but factoring in some successful overvote challenges---we get a 14--28, call it 15--30 vote expected gain for Franken on challenged undervotes. If "22" is a report, then he could wind up toward 50 votes ahead , but alternatively, this is close to the difference between "-13" and "+22" which would get you from "report" to "contention". All guesswork either way, but probably not far off the mark.

Matthew Avitabile said...

Franken's losing, whether he'll admit it or not:
http://jumpinginpools.blogspot.com/2008/11/rip-frankens-senate-hopes.html

merzbow said...

Minneapolis discovery costs Franken 44 votes

http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_11129187?nclick_check=1

"What Maplewood giveth, Minneapolis taketh away.

Elections officials in Minnesota's largest city today discovered that one precinct came up 133 ballots short of election day totals, resulting in a net loss for Democratic challenger Al Franken of 44 votes..."

Doh!

@Michael (mbw) -

I'm even more amazed that it's the MN SoS saying that 500-1000 absentees were improperly rejected (a 5-10% error rate). That shows a startling lack of faith in the competence of MN election officials, by their own bosses. Since the rejected absentees have not been re-examined yet, I can only conclude they are basing this on some sort of past data. But if past data indicated such a high error rate, wouldn't they have done something to fix it?

Jon said...

Matthew Avitabile:

Are you serious? What kind of idiot are you to link to a blog post from four days ago as evidence that Franken is losing in the recount? Why not quote some doctor speaking fifty years ago as evidence that smoking doesn't cause cancer while you're at it?

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