12.23.2008

Franken to Coleman: Where's The Beef?

EDIT (8:10 AM): The Uptake, which we've recommended to you many times, will have a live streaming feed of the Canvassing Board's activities today beginning at 9 AM Minnesota time. This is separate and distinct from the Supreme Court's ruling, which probably wont come until later in the day.

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In a 26-page response (.pdf) filed on Monday with the Minnesota Supreme Court, Al Franken's campaign disputes Norm Coleman's claim that a significant number of ballots were double-counted in Minnesota, chiding Coleman's petition for a lack of evidence.

To briefly review the mechanics of the dispute: under certain circumstances in Minnesota, a duplicate ballot must be created on Election Day. This happens when the ballot cannot be read properly by a machine scanner, either because it is has been damaged in some way or -- as in the case of many overseas absentee ballots -- it has been printed out on a non-regulation type of paper. When this occurs, both the original ballots and the duplicates are supposed to be labeled carefully; i.e. "Original #1", "Original #2", "Original #3", and "Duplicate #1", "Duplicate #2", "Duplicate #3". The duplicates are then run through the scanners and the originals segregated and preserved for safe-keeping.

In advance of the manual recount, however, the campaigns agreed that rather than counting the duplicate ballots, they would instead count the originals. Why the change of course? The problem with the originals is that they can't be read by a machine scanner. In the recount, however, all ballots are counted by hand, rendering this problem moot. The original ballots, the campaigns seemed to believe, preserved a purer, more foolproof impression of voter's intent. Therefore, during the recount, any ballots identified as duplicates were pulled from the pile and not counted, and the originals counted in their place.

The problem is that in some cases -- likely involving a couple hundred ballots statewide -- there was a discrepancy between the number of originals and the number of duplicates. So, for example, you might have original ballots labeled #1-#4, but only duplicates #1, 2, and 4 were found during the hand recount, with no match for #3. Or, worse still, you might not find any ballots labeled as duplicates at all.

The Coleman campaign's claim is that where such discrepancies arose, the cause was that the elections worker failed to properly label the duplicate ballots. These duplicates could therefore not have been pulled from the pile, and both the duplicate and the original would wind up being counted. As evidence of this, the Coleman campaign cites a number of instances in which more ballots were counted during the recount than on Election Day.

Franken's response proposes, in essence, a number of alternative hypothesis for the discrepancies, which would not have implied double-counting. In particular, Franken proposes the following:

1. Duplicate ballots were never created. This would also result in an absence of ballots labeled as duplicates during the hand recount, as well as an increase in the number of ballots counted between Election Day and the recount phase.

2. Duplicate ballots were created on Election Day, counted on Election Day, then set aside. In other words, the duplicate ballots were lost after Election Day. This would also result in an absence of duplicate ballots, although it would not result in an increase in the number of ballots counted over Election Day.

3. Duplicate ballots were created on Election Day, but set aside and never counted. The same as above, except the ballots were never counted in the first place; this permutation would result in an increase in the number of ballots counted versus Election Day.

The Franken campaign claims that each of these possibilities is "equally likely" as the Coleman campaign's hypothesis that duplicates were created but not labeled. While that seems like a stretch -- I can't imagine that #2 and #3 happened very frequently -- #1 is a problem for Coleman, as the Franken campaign has produced affidavits from at least two precincts claiming that the precinct workers forgot to create duplicate ballots.

Franken's response also cites another problem with the Coleman campaign's complaint. Namely, it isn't really dispositive if the number of ballots counted during the recount exceeds the number counted on Election Day. This could result from any of several of the permutations discussed above, as well as a number of other circumstances not related to duplicate ballots, such as a machine scanner having malfunctioned on Election Day.

What would be more powerful evidence, Franken claims, is if the number of votes counted during the recount exceeded the number of voters present on Election Day, as recorded on sign-in sheets and the like. The Coleman campaign, however, has conspicuously presented no evidence of instances where there were more votes than voters.

That's really the thrust of Franken's response (which, it must be said, is annoyingly repetitive at times). It's basically a "Where's The Beef?" sort of argument.

And it's one that might persuade the Court. Suppose that you have two hypotheses to explain missing duplicate ballots. If one hypothesis is true, then you'll have double-counted certain votes. But if the court acts upon that hypothesis, and it turns out to be false, the result will be that you'll have thrown out certain (legal) votes.

Coleman's proposed remedy is that original ballots should be thrown out in any instances where they can't be paired with duplicates. If that remedy is adopted, then each of two things will happen: (#1) The state will prevent some ballots from being double-counted, and (#2) The state will also throw out some perfectly legal ballots. The process of identifying potential double-counted ballots is simply too imprecise to have the one thing without the other.

Can these two harms be weighed against one another? Suppose that if you rule on Coleman's behalf, you'll prevent 20 votes from being counted twice, but also throw out 20 legal votes. Most of us would probably not consider that to be a productive trade-off. But what if you could prevent 30 votes from being double-counted, in exchange for throwing out 10 legal ballots? Does the trade-off then become acceptable? Should you double-count 50 ballots if it prevents one voter from having his vote thrown out? Or, does the right of a voter to have his vote counted inherently trump that of the risk of counting some other voter's ballot twice?

These are the sorts of questions that the Court will have to ask itself. My layman's opinion is that Coleman will need to present stronger evidence before the Court is willing to run the risk of throwing out legal ballots, particularly as Coleman signed off on the procedures that governed the recount in the first place. But, we will know soon enough, and it's unlikely that anything the Court rules now would preclude Coleman from contesting the results of the election later.

51 comments

hill.tops said...

FIRST!

hill.tops said...

regarding the last paragraph:

Coleman signed off on the procedures that governed the recount in the first place. But, we will know soon enough, and it's unlikely that anything the Court rules now would preclude Coleman from contesting the results of the election later.


What grounds will Coleman use to contest the final certification?

RufusRules said...

I'd guess the MN court will go with the original ballots. It is far more probable that any missing duplicate ballots were simply never created. Why would an election worker go to the trouble of creating and (possibly) scanning a duplicate ballot, then let said ballot go adrift?

If he ultimately ends up with the short stack, Coleman can sue on whatever flimsy grounds he and his lawyers can concoct. That is, however, only delaying the inevitable.

Joe Benevides said...

Holy crap! Asking Republitards to produce proof in the form of evidence! How often does that happen?! This just might bring on the End of Days the wingnuts are always ranting about! Maybe Coleman's people will respond in tongues, telling the justices that God wants them to accept His 'word'. At this point they'll try anything.

Michael said...

Good line, Joe, but is the tongue you're thinking of Hebrew?

Davy said...

Nate and the other insomniacs are up late

Joe Benevides said...

Michael: Most of the time it's Holy Roller gibberish, but it could be the same stuff Palin's voodoo pastor uses when he's chasing witches out of villages in the name of God. I really don't think they're intelligent enough to use a real language as difficult to learn as Hebrew.

Juris said...

@Nate: TYPO: "a number of alternative hypothesis"

Should be plural: hypotheses.

green libertarian said...

OT: if you want to foster a blog community, sorry, you need to foster folks' weather situations. Jes' sayin'...

It's not what constitutes grounds for a legal challenge on these matters, it's what, as I've asked about for weeks, what is PRECEDENCE for prevailing on such legal challenges, which we all know are coming, the challenges in court I mean.

VegnaBlitz said...

Can you picture Coleman saying, "My friends, we've got Franken right where we want him"? :)

Franken's moving in for the kill. Coleman is in the corner. Is this an illusion? Does Coleman have a December surprise? Nope! Turns out it's just a hail mary with nobody within 50 yards.

(Now just when I'm catching my breath, this recount is going to take another twist, huh?)

WV: darding. Sounds about right.

fred said...

Coleman is grasping at straws.

I am still trying to figure out the absentee ballots, and the insane ruling from the MNSC that basically allows the candidates to use those great micro-targetting databases to pick which ballots get counted.


INSANE!

Mike J said...

So if none of the ballots are marked as dupes, how does Coleman suggest spotting them and removing them from the count? Or does he want to simply use the count from election day, i.e. throw out the entire recount?

livemild said...

legally how does the MNSC throw out an original legal ballot? i just cant see them being able to do that on ANY grounds. i just dont see them wanting to either.

as far proceeding to the courts the coleman camp doesnt have much of a legal ground to stand on IMO

loner said...

I think the ruling last week was a signal to the candidates that they needed to work this out with election officials before the end of the year so my expectation is that Coleman, having ignored their signal, will, in short order, have his head handed to him.

fred said...

This is great news for Sarah Palin!

fred said...

NOW she tells us! If Sister Sarah ran the campaign instead of the crazy-inexperienced McCain guy, she would have won!

"Said Palin: "The biggest mistake made was that I could have called more shots on this: the opportunities that were not seized to speak to more Americans via media. I was not allowed to do very many interviews, and the interviews that I did were not necessarily those I would have chosen... But if I would have been in charge, I would have wanted to speak to more reporters because that's how you get your message out to the electorate."

Meanwhile, Washington Whispers notes a mistake Palin made after the campaign: She didn't return two phone calls from former President H.W. Bush. "

Patrick said...

You know Nate, I've read your blog since May, and I've found your insight on the statistics to be awesome.

But your constant cries of conservative stupidity have become unbearably obnoxious. Of course Fox News is biased and everyone knows it; I don't see why you see the need to bewail their every childish flaw (paying attention to the little brat only legitimizes him), when similar faux pas's by liberal media organizations (e.g., NYT) go unnamed.

If this were simply a Fox News issue, I would understand, but it's not; look at the titles of your last 30 threads, and you'll see how many were pro-Franklin pieces. I am sorry to say it, Nate, as I have enjoyed your blog as much as I ever have enjoyed a blog, but your rants show your emotions overcome any sense of fairness way too often. You have become more angry partisan hack and less neutral blogger, an exact inverse from your first posts.

Sadly, you have lost another dedicated reader, as there's no longer anything to be gained from reading your blog (and, yes, I know people make this claim on a frequent basis). A true pity.

Tony C. said...

Thorough is often dull and repetitive and in legal briefs there are no points for brevity. The judge and other side are captive to read it all. I haven't read it, but the repetition is probably making the same point (duplicates should produce more votes than voters) with half a dozen ways to test that hypothesis.

It seems unlikely to me that a poll worker would mark an original as "Original #x" without knowing to mark the duplicate as well; it seems much more likely to forget to make the duplicates at all.

I don't see how a judge can determine it is worth rejecting a valid vote, and I don't see how a judge can justify double-counting any vote.

But the point is who wins the election; so if I were the judge I would want to determine precisely what is at stake and whether the final tally on the supposedly duplicate ballots would swing the election either way.

I would exclude from that count any polling place for which the worker in charge of duplicating the ballots would swear under oath that no duplicates were made, or swear under oath they created duplicates but failed to label them. If the tally doesn't net Coleman enough votes to reverse the election, then the judge doesn't need to make a decision, he can just call the election for Franken.

hill.tops said...

Palin is the gift that keeps on giving.

There is nothing stopping her from doing those interviews, NOW, but she's still not doing them.

Snubbing old man Bush. Remember when Couric asked her who was her favorite Veep, and Palin said Ferraro. ahahahahahahhahahahhahahahhaha.

hill.tops said...

Patrick...

atleast you coulda observed mainstream blog etiquette and stated, "Good Bye Cruel World."

Tony C. said...

@Patrick: Maybe Nate is pro-Franken (not "Franklin") because he is a numbers guy and he believes Franken won, and maybe he is anti-Fox because he believes the Fox operatives are lying jerks and bigots perfectly happy to steal an election.

Logic isn't just for fun, it has consequences. It is possible to logically conclude that one side is lying and the other is telling the truth, that Coleman lost and Franken won, that Coleman is trying to obstruct justice and steal an election and Franken is trying to take what he rightfully won.

What you interpret as "bias" is just a logical decision that has not gone your way. I think you are projecting your own bias on Nate, or to paraphrase the movie cliche; we have traced the call and it is coming from inside your house.

just_looking said...

Nate,

Good capture of the Franken argument (and it's a strong one) However, some comments:

In advance of the manual recount, however, the campaigns agreed that rather than counting the duplicate ballots, they would instead count the originals.

I don't think there was any such agreement. Franken claims the agreement was that only originals were to be counted, except a duplicate is counted when there was no matching original. Coleman claims the agreement was only duplicates were to be counted.

particularly as Coleman signed off on the procedures that governed the recount in the first place

Yes, he did. Procedures set up by the SoS, not an agreement by the campaigns.

So, for example, you might have original ballots labeled #1-#4, but only duplicates #1, 2, and 4 were found during the hand recount, with no match for #3. Or, worse still, you might not find any ballots labeled as duplicates at all.

According to the procedures, if no duplicates were found, then the originals would not be counted. This is Coleman's strongest claim for getting originals thrown out.

If on the other hand, at least one duplicate was found, and it was discovered the number of originals didn't match the number of originals, then the procedures said the campaigns need to agree on whether to count the originals or duplicates. If they could not agree, then the originals were to be counted. Franken is on firm ground here.

mediapost said...

"What would be more powerful evidence, Franken claims, is if the number of votes counted during the recount exceeded the number of voters present on Election Day, as recorded on sign-in sheets and the like."

I think it's entirely possible that some double counting did occur in a few selected precincts. However, Coleman needs to provide some corroborating evidence from the sign-in sheets in order to move this beyond mere speculation. Everything I’ve seen from Coleman has been based on machine counts. In the case of the missing 133 votes that eventually went to Franken, the sign-in sheets provided critical proof that there were indeed missing ballots (along with that absence of envelope 1/5). My bet is that team Franken is hard at work assembling the sign-in sheet data and they will prove that the vast majority of these duplicate claims are bogus.

PS Many kudos to RWRegan and just-looking for their quick work in disproving the Fox News propaganda.

Alex Epstein said...

How hard is it to determine whether something's an original or a duplicate? One is a xerox, one is written in ink.

You ought to be able to find a color of light in which it is really easy to tell xerox ink and toner from pen ink. Then you could quickly split copies and originals, preventing double counting.

mediapost said...

Hi Alex,

Someone already straightened me out on that one. The duplicates are created by hand.

Mark Ludwick said...

@just-looking

I remember when Trimble first objected to the process of counting original ballots (after the recount process had begun), that Elias and Richie both referred back to the process by which the recount process had been defined. They referred to it as a collaborative process among the campaigns and the Board, and said that Trimble was the one who had been insistent on counting originals...

This seems to contradict what you are saying: that "(Coleman claims) the agreement was only duplicates were to be counted" and that procedures were "set up by the SoS, not an agreement by the campaigns."

Could you, or someone else, elaborate on the process by which the duplicate ballot counting procedure was established to clarify this?

Redshift said...

Good DailyKos diary on the legal issues and their possible resolution here.

just_looking said...

@Mark Ludwick

Here is the email trail that (I think) established (or maybe clarified) the process.

The campaigns start (read from the bottom) by disagreeing about whether to count unmatched duplicates (Franken says "no", Coleman says "yes"). Then, comes the process.

I have no evidence of Trimble insisting on counting originals.

The process described in the email, setup by the SoS, invited, but did not require the campaigns to come to an agreement. It would appear in retrospect, no agreement was reached.

Troy said...

At first, I sided with Coleman, that the duplicates weren't marked and these unmatched originals have been voted twice. Nice and easy.

Now Franken has reports from workers who say they forgot to even make the duplicates.

This is the first time in this recount that I'm really wondering what the proper decision should be. What is the likelihood that a decision will be put off until after the absentee issue is resolved and counted? Maybe then 50 votes won't change the outcome.

Juris said...

The CB reviewed their decisions on the 16 ballots that the Coleman lawyers asked them to check. In every case, after the CB members reviewed the ballots there was either no motion to reconsider or no second for the motion. So, no gain for either Coleman or Franken today.

The Chief Justice signaled a bit at the end of the session that the way the CB treated this request may be suggestive of how they would respond to any similar requests from either side between now and their next scheduled meeting. They seem to believe that they did a very good job and that even with some close calls they would not call them differently upon reviewing them now.

So it looks like they're really going to be moving to another phase, whether it's the duplicate ballot matter or the absentee ballot matter (insofar as those may come back to the CB).

Data Guy said...

"But your constant cries of conservative stupidity have become unbearably obnoxious. Of course Fox News is biased and everyone knows it; I don't see why you see the need to bewail their every childish flaw (paying attention to the little brat only legitimizes him), when similar faux pas's by liberal media organizations (e.g., NYT) go unnamed."

How amazing. Unfortunately, this kind of feckless whining is all too typical of conservaboobs.

The problem with the complaint is that it ignores reality. If you see a large moose and state "there is a large moose there", this is not anti-small moose, it is reality.

This is similar to the problem of conservative stupidity. Conservatives today are stupid, and merely stating the obvious is not a prejudice, but is just reporting the truth. As Jack Friday said, "Just the fax, m'am. Just the fax."

Conservatives are stupid. If they don't want to be called stupid, act smart. But then, they would be democrats, right?

judas_priest said...

@ green libertarian:

You are by no means the only person to make this mistake but I today I found myself with both time and circumstance to post this.

You have confused "Precedents" and "Precedence." While both have the same derivation (from the Latin verb meaning "to go before." I think its "precedere," but I stopped learning Latin more than 50 years ago so I'm not sure.)

"Precedence" deals with protocol issues. Who takes precedence over somebody else, for example, discusses which one of the two gets to go first. (That person will "go before" the other)

"Precedents" is the plural of "precedent," which is the legal term. It means something which has gone before, that is, some prior legal decision, and in jurisprudence the idea is that a court is supposed to defer to "precedent." (It's actually a lot more complex that that, but this will do.) If the court currently deciding an issue is a lower level court under the appellate jurisdiction of the court which made the original decision, it must follow the earlier decision, even if the current court thinks the earlier decision represents the crossest stupidity.

WV- tarrona
tarrona marathon takes a lot of endurance

Juris said...

Tarrona marathon would give me a kila.

wv: swail (well, it ain't that good)

green libertarian said...

Appreciate the clarification, I was not clear in my language, and I thank you for helping me learn about the proper uses of those words.

I guess what I am asking, in other cases, hopefully in MN, what types of evidence and argument were made that resulted in a court finding that double counting did occur, and what did the court order as a remedy, if any?

RivierRatt said...

Oh, Data Guy...

You made a critical error.

There was no "Jack Friday." It was Joe Friday who said "Just the facts, ma'am."

For shame.


wv: bessin: Bessin be da meek, fer dey shall whomp da spit outten any bessurds whut cuz dem pain.

Sheldon Rampton said...

I think the proof of duplicate ballots is buried somewhere in Syria along with Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. As soon as Al Franken realized that hiding the evidence was necessary to steal the election, he called his friends in the liberal media and had them contact Bill Ayers, when then contacted agents working for SPECTER. Using a special teleporter ray, they disassembled the evidence into its constituent molecules and beamed them to an undisclosed location. Miraculously, they were able to do this without anyone noticing.

It's all a conspeeeracy!

judas_priest said...

In the Minnesota Supreme Court case, Coleman is the Petitioner, which means the burden of proof is on him to bring forward evidence and argument to convince the court that it should grant the relief asked for. That is, a tie favors Franken. No only that, but Franken's argument that Coleman produced no evidence to support certain claims should mean that Coleman loses those points, since it was his to to show that there was a real issue.

The Petition makes a claim for injunctive relief. I assume that Minnesota law is essentially similar to the federal law on the topic and to the laws of the three jurisdictions in which I had been admitted to the bar. To be entitled to injunctive relief, the petitioner must show that
1) (S)he is likely to win on the merits;
2) There is no adequate remedy at law.
3) The variuous equities must be balanced
(There are some others as well, but these are the critical ones here)

I have read (more or less) Coleman's Petition, but I have not seen the Memorandum of Law in support of the petition so I cannot say exactly how he argues those points. By inference, I think he is saying that Minnesota statutory law says that waiting for an election contest is not an adequate remedy.

But if issuing this order means a significant delay in counting the votes, that delay itself may constitute an inequity sufficient to defeat the claim for injunctive relief.

All these points are procedural and not intended to argue the underlying substance.

WV-juyin
1. Spoken to a prospective pplayer in a poker game, "Juyin or out?"

2. The hero in the latest Kung-Fu movie.

Juris said...

@RiverRatt: you better put your false teeth back in. (Bess be you put your false tees back in.)

wv: restmicu

Shelly said...

Now the idiot voters of MN can have an idiot Senator too. All is well...

Publius said...

Patrick said...

If this were simply a Fox News issue, I would understand, but it's not; look at the titles of your last 30 threads, and you'll see how many were pro-Franklin pieces.

Nate Silver's leftist bias is GREAT NEWS!!! For BEN FRANKLIN !!!

wv: tortho. How one feels after paying for their kids' braces.

Juris said...

@Shelly: They've got an idiot for a Senator now; with any luck, he'll be out of office forever on January 3rd.

Edward G. Talbot said...

If the last ruling is any indication, the court is going to rely as heavily as possible on Minnesota law first and then use their judgment for anything they don't feel the law is clear on. There seem to me to be two legal points that they need to decide on that could trump all these comments here.

The first critical point is whether they decide that this is an "obvious error". If it is not, the court could very well rule that the petition is denied because it should only be heard during an election contest. And there are at least two parts to the obvious error determination. One is whether or not there is sufficient evidence of an inaccurate count. The second is even if such evidence exists, would it be considered an obvious error or something to be addressed during a contest.


The second main legal point is Coleman's contention that the state law governing all counties that use electronic counting applies to the manual recount. If they decide it does, then the outcome is going to be very different than if they decide it doesn't.

You need to look at the legal arguments here - the devil is in the details. If there were no state laws and the court were just trying to get the most accurate count, the ruling could be very different than if they feel constrained by certain state laws.

Gary S. Hurd said...

RiverRatt You are correct that it was Joe Friday that said, "Just the facts." But it was his lesser known brother who worked in IT, Jack Friday who said, "Just the fax, m'am. Just the fax."

Another Mike said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Tony C. said...

@Another Mike: While I understand that sentiment, it makes no sense to me at all. There are any number of ways Obama could have teamed with Rick Warren on those issues without making him the premier spiritual leader of the inauguration.

Finding common ground in a meeting is one thing; honoring somebody is something else. We might find common ground with an Iranian leadership that oppresses women and hates Americans, but we don't invite them to headline our our public events. Sitting down with bad guys and negotiating a payoff or aid isn't the same thing as embracing them, and that is what Obama has done with Warren.

BTW, Check out Maddow, Warren is now LYING and saying he never said those things. Just proof that he is a fraud like any common bad hair evangelical.

MNLatteLiberal said...

Coleman Petition to the SC re duplicates DENIED!!!!

http://tinyurl.com/86kwn7

~ Latte

Tony C. said...

@MNLatteLiberal: Woo hoo!

I guess this means the Canvassing Board can go ahead and certify the vote for Franken whenever they want; and Coleman will have to file a lawsuit against them. They are going to wait until Jan 4th anyway, I suspect. Many thanks to the SC for working on Christmas Eve!

egapre said...

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