12.19.2008

Franken is Winning, and Coleman Knows It

Minnesota's Canvassing Board this afternoon completed the bulk of its review of challenged ballots. The Canvassing Board ruled upon 1,325 challenges, according to numbers prepared by the Star Tribune, including 852 challenges brought by the Coleman campaign and 472 brought by the Franken campaign. Among these 1,325 ballots, 758 were allocated to Franken, 319 to Coleman, and 248 ballots were assigned to third-party candidates or deemed to be illegal. This resulted in a net gain of 439 votes for Franken, giving him a nominal lead of 251 ballots.

Franken's lead is almost certain to diminish once the Canvassing Board reviews more than 5,000 withdrawn challenges, and defaults them to the rulings originally made at the county level. Franken withdrew considerably more challenges than Coleman: 2,806, by my count, to Coleman's 2,525. If all withdrawn challenges are assigned to the opposing candidate, this would result in a net swing of 281 votes to Coleman, putting him back in front by 28 ballots.

Not all withdrawn challenges, however, can safely be added to the opposing candidate's total. Fundamentally, there are two types of challenges:

Type 1: You can challenge an opponent's ballot that you were hoping to get excluded;

Type 2: You can challenge one of your own ballots that you were hoping to get included.

The first type of challenge will add to the opponent's total if and when it gets rejected, but the second type will not. The question, then, is the relative frequency of the different types of challenges in each candidate's withdrawn pile.

Suppose, for instance, that for both candidates 90% of the challenges were Type 1 and 10% were Type 2. If this is the case, Coleman would gain 2,525 votes from withdrawn Franken challenges, and Franken would gain 2,273 votes from withdrawn Coleman challenges. That would produce a net swing of 253 votes for Coleman, giving him a victory by 2 (!) ballots.

In practice, however, it appears that Franken's pile contains a relatively higher instance of Type 2 challenges. There are at least three reasons to conclude so:

1. Although this isn't necessarily meaningful, Franken had a higher proportion of Type 2 challenges among those challenges that were not withdrawn.

2. Prior to the challenge phase beginning, the Franken campaign claimed that it would gain ground if all challenges were rejected, pulling 4 ballots ahead of Coleman. A necessary implication of Franken's claim is that he had a higher proportion of Type 2 challenges. If I try and work backwards from the Franken campaign's math, I show that Franken now has a lead of something like 66 votes after accounting for withdrawn challenges.

3. The Star Tribune has a more direct way to account for withdrawn challenges. Specifically, they have projected them out based on the votes of their readers, thousands of whom sorted through each ballot individually on the Star Tribune's website. The Star Tribune projects a Franken win by 78 ballots based on these reader estimates, fairly closely matching my back-of-the-envelope math.

There is undoubtedly some uncertainty in these numbers. (Moreover, we are uncertain about how much uncertainty there is). It appears likely, however, that Coleman did not connect on his challenges at a high enough batting average, and that Franken will emerge with some sort of solid, double-digit advantage exiting this phase of the process.

Coleman, then, has two additional processes by which he couple hope to reverse that result, as well as a couple of hail marys.

Issue #1. Rejected Absentee Ballots. Minnesota's Supreme Court yesterday mandated that the campaigns must work with the counties in attempting to identify and count absentee ballots that may have been rejected in error. The process the Supreme Court established is unusual, in that each of the campaigns would have to mutually agree that a ballot is valid before it gets counted.

The problem for the Coleman campaign is that counting more absentee ballots will probably benefit Franken. Democrats made a push nationwide for early and absentee voting, and at least one pre-election survey also had Franken doing better among absentee voters. The behavior of the respective campaigns, of course, has been perhaps the strongest signal that such votes are likely to help Franken.

But now that he's (probably) no longer ahead, Coleman has conflicting objectives on the absentee ballot front. On the one hand, he might want to gamble and count as many of them as he can -- he has little to lose, and has to pick up votes somehow. But on the other hand, he knows it's more likely than not that a plurality of such votes will be for Franken. The dilemma is a bit like that facing the gambler who, having lost his shirt at blackjack, puts his last few chips on '00' on the roulette wheel hoping to get even.

Issue #2. Duplicate Ballots. The other legal issue is that surrounding duplicate ballots, which we addressed at length earlier today. In brief: the Coleman campaign believes that some ballots have been double-counted, and wants the Supreme Court to require that the counties check for any such instances and amend their counts appropriately.

Here too, however, there is no particular reason to conclude that identifying duplicate ballots would work to Coleman's benefit. The Coleman campaign presented more than 200 alleged duplicate ballots to the Canvassing Board. The Franken campaign, however, indicated to the Canvassing Board late today that it had more than 300 such ballots in its possession, but had withdrawn them from its stack of challenges. (EDIT: The '200' and '300' numbers reflect all types of 'incident' ballots, including but not limited to potential duplicates, although the duplicates make up a large fraction of these).

From my vantage point, it's pretty much a 50:50 proposition which candidate will benefit if the double-counted ballots can be identified (something, by the way, which is much easier said than done). If one campaign is making a lot of noise about the issue, it's because that campaign is losing and needs to gamble. In this case, that would be Coleman, who only today filed a petition with the court to address the issue. (Earlier in the recount process, in fact, the Coleman campaign had been admonishing the Franken campaign for challenging duplicate ballots).

Regardless, if Coleman trails Franken by something like 70 votes, it seems unlikely that there are enough potential double-counted ballots to allow him to make up his deficit. Collectively, the campaigns were apparently sitting on something like 550 potential duplicate ballots. Suppose that all 550 such ballots can be identified as duplicates, and that all are otherwise legal ballots cast for either Coleman or Franken. Coleman would need Franken to be identified on 56.4% of such ballots to make up a 70-vote deficit with with him. If such ballots are equally likely to help Franken and Coleman, the odds of this happening through chance alone are remote -- about 1,100-to-one against. And if Coleman has instead to make up, say, a 120-vote gap because Franken gains ground from the counting of absentee ballots, then good luck to him. It is possible that there is some sort of systematic reason why Franken is more likely to have been named on a duplicate ballot than Coleman, but as yet I am unaware of it.

Hail Marys. If the above processes fail to push Coleman past Franken, Coleman can always contest the election. There are nearly as many reasons for a challenge as there are lakes in Minnesota: Coleman could challenge the Canvassing Board's standards for counting challenged ballots, or the Canvassing Board's decision to give Franken credit for missing ballots in Minneapolis, and there might be other legal paths open to him on either the absentee ballot or duplicate ballot front. If the votes ultimately aren't there for him, however, Coleman is just treading water -- he could win his court case and lose the election.

Finally, Coleman could ask for a re-vote -- but the only agency with any sort of statutory authority to grant this is the Democratic-controlled U.S. Senate. Coleman would have better odds of filling Amy Poehler's shoes on Saturday Night Live.

212 comments

MXH said...

Sweet!! Thanks for all the updates, Nate

Statler N Waldorf said...

Yaaaaaaaaay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

garykunkel said...

Thanks Nate! I'm worried about the absentee ballots. My bet is Coleman tries to game the system there by vetoing more of the "blue county 5th pile ballots" than the "red county" 5th pile ballots. He's got nothing to lose, so why not play nasty? Franken should be careful there!
Gary

The Dude Abides said...

Brought over from the end of the previous thread:

One big question: has the current official tally already added back in the 133 "lost" votes from the misplaced envelope that could not be counted during the recount? As I recall, this resulted in a net gain to Franken of something like 42 votes. Does the official tally account for these votes yet?

Mark said...

Yes, I was thinking exactly what garykunkel just said. What's to stop Coleman from doing that--especially if he does so in a way that doesn't explicitl sets different standards but just implements those standards differentially (e.g., by judging what constitutes an identical signature much more strictly in blue counties than red counties)?

ABowers said...

Love to read Nate's comments. And I even understand about half of what he says (Well maybe not half, but who's counting.)
Please tell me four things. Since the board decided to count the 150 "duplicate ballots" Friday morning, did they in fact count them on Friday afternoon?
How will the SOS award the remaining withdrawn challenges and when?
When do the two camps get together and agree on a procedure for absentee ballots?
What will the board be doing when it reconvenes on Monday mornig?
Are all of Coleman's current challenges now counted?
HELP!!

hill.tops said...

*
6TH!

THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR McCAIN!!!

Jenna said...

Dude, yes it does. They reverted to the election night precinct count and added that in.

Spam210wal said...

Are they done counting the challenged ballots?

Jenna said...

Abowers:
Since the board decided to count the 150 "duplicate ballots" Friday morning, did they in fact count them on Friday afternoon?
… Yes

How will the SOS award the remaining withdrawn challenges and when?
… They will check all their arithmetic and announce on Monday morning.

When do the two camps get together and agree on a procedure for absentee ballots?
…. Presumably early next week to get together. As for agreeing, who knows?

What will the board be doing when it reconvenes on Monday morning?
…. Announcing the complete recount results excluding the absentees that were rejected. And probably talking about the process they have to come up with for rejected absentees.

Are all of Coleman's current challenges now counted?
… Yes, but he filed with the MN SC to try to get the alleged “duplicate ballots” examined and somehow ascertain what to do with them, if they exist.

JackRussell said...

I am not going to relax until they finish all of the counting. Yeah, Coleman will try and use the courts to overturn this, but that's a desperation move.

Franken is showing all of us why you don't concede close elections, and stick to it all the way through. The fact that we have a SOS that isn't a GOP sockpuppet also helps, I guess.

Jenna said...

The survey that Nate referred to under "Issue #1. Rejected Absentee Ballots" shows that Franken had an 8% (of total early voters) edge over Coleman's early votes. 47% of early voters voted for Al, compared to 39% for Norm.

sfergus said...

This is not just a close election - it is a historically close election. Remember this the measure is not the number of votes difference alone, but the total number of votes cast. Under 100 votes with 3 million cast is about as close as it ever gets.

I don't recall anyone ever conceding an election this close without a protracted review (or of course the USSC intervening).

Tim said...

ABowers: Since the board decided to count the 150 "duplicate ballots" Friday morning, did they in fact count them on Friday afternoon?

Actually I don't think they did. They determined the voter intent for the few that were also challenged the regular way, but I don't think the others will be added in until Monday's count. That wasn't very clear. Certainly the 300-some Franken procedural challenges wouldn't have been tallied yet. If the Coleman duplicates have in fact been included in the count, that could skew the result heavily to Coleman.

Spectator Consumer said...

ABowers,

My understanding is that they've set aside the duplicate ballots to deal with Monday. There was back and forth over these but the upshot is that CB said they simply did not have the authority to decide on challenges that required outside evidence and, essentially, a hearing. Another of Coleman's lawyers then argued that on several of the duplicate ballots they also had intent of the voter challenges and wanted them considered. I can't understand why the CB didn't accede to this request except that they only want to deal with a ballot a single time.


I'm still confused, as others have posted, why we can't know EXACTLY what the early-withdrawn ballots will score. The decisions were already made at the local level and since the challenges have been withdrawn the local decision will stand. These ought to be all scanned in, and the decisions made public somewhere.


Also, shouldn't the duplicate ballot challenges be scanned online? I'm not certain how the SoS is pulling these up so quickly, but they must be indexed in a database. Caveat...they sure ought to be indexed with lots of metadata. When scanned in, a normal attribute would sensibly be local decision C or F or O (overvote) or U (undervote) or 3 (3rd party). They'd also want name of challenger, and ultimate disposition. Sometimes with gov't and technology you get anomalies, but the way they've set up a live stream, scanned all the ballots, made duplicates I believe the judges have in front of them...and are tallying these (likely in some terrible Diebold spread sheet).


The thing that makes me wonder about using database techonology of the 80s that could save us all headaches, is that they keep showing the ballots being pulled up from folders, as if the scanned images are just in some folders someone labeled Coleman challenges or what have you. And, although the scanned images are cool to see on the STrib site, there is no web-based front end to search through using useful metadata. Nonetheless, it really probably is there somewhere, although they haven't bothered to add a web front end to search.

And, I have no idea if the 133 have been included in the tally. I assume yes, because they ruled on them and haven't heard of them mentioned since.

KWRegan said...

At TheUptake's live blog, there's a 5:36pm CST entry from their number-tracker Noah Kunin, saying, "The Strib projection tracks with Franken, Nate Silver of 538 and myself. All in the same ball park." I.e. we can add an in-the-room observer and a citation of the Franken campaign as basically confirming Nate and the STrib source he cites.

TheUptake's live blog also had end-of-day requests for breakdowns of who won what # of challenges (of both "Types")---those weren't immeidately available. In particular, I'll be curious to see how many cases there were of:

(A) A vote-challenge ("Type 1") that not only denies a ruling initially for your opponent, but "flips" into being a vote for you.
(B) A non-vote challenge ("Type 2") that you make, which instead turns into a vote for the other guy.

Although both show as winning 1 challenge, (A) is like a double-win, while (B) amounts to a double-loss, when you "try and work backward from the Franken campaign's math." There were at least a couple of such cases (noted by Latte) going in Franken's favor. They could arise when both ovals were (part-)filled, and/or one has a check or line or X that might---or might not---be obliteration rather than emphasis.

Travis said...

Is Ramsey going to participate in the absentee reevaluation now? It accounts for >10% of Absentee ballots and Franken carried it by 20 points over Coleman, and it currently is listed on strib's website as not participating.

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

@ sfergus

I replied positively on the previous thread. Thanks for the clarification.

I suspect a race with 50,000 voters and a disputed margin of 100 votes would be fought over like a bone between two junkyard dogs.

I still hope that Al Franken will be certified.

hill.tops said...

Al Franken is nobody's patsy -- he's a FIGHTER!!!

evenswr said...

Am I the only one still laughing about this being great news for McCain? That one never gets old for me.

Ari said...

Re: a revote

Norm is in trouble. Recent news has been about a fundraising scandal and is lawyering up. Franken would probably win a recount anyway.

evenswr said...

Also wanted to say that as the process goes on, we gradually get closer and closer to what the final result will be. If we get to the point that Franken's up by ~70 votes, Coleman starts running out of options and starts looking like a sore loser.

Daniel said...

I still laugh at the Great news for McCain thing, but I have no clue what it's from.

1sunnyday said...

I agree with the other posters, Coleman seems to have nothing to lose by gaming the (ridiculous) absentee system set up by the Minnesota Supreme Court. There are over 1500 improperly rejected absentee ballots, far more than enough to give Coleman a substantial lead.

Coleman's play:

Step 1. Coleman applies a loose threshold in districts favorable to him, gaining him a large number of votes

Step 2. Coleman applies a strict threshold in districts favorable to Franken, keeping Franken from gaining back any ground.

Step 3. The official count ends with Coleman in a (comparatively) massive lead.

Franken has two primary recourses. He could play Coleman's game and adopt Coleman's strict standards in Coleman districts. This of course would be a hugely hypocritical move by Franken, as he would now be actively rejecting the ballots he had fought so hard to see included.

This matching Coleman's of deceit could, possibly result in the final count being in Franken's favor. In my estimation, it does not seem to be worth the risk.

Most analysis suggests that a proper counting of the absentee ballots would give Franken a likely insurmountable, multi-hundred vote lead. Without those ballots, he may only lead by 70 odd votes. A margin so small that were Coleman to uncover even the smallest cache, or convince the court to give him the smallest concession, he could easily overcome such a tiny lead.

Franken's other recourse would be to let Coleman play his games, grudgingly cede the lead to Coleman's improper rejection of valid ballots, then hope and pray the MN Supreme Court would rectify the situation. Given that this is the same court that sent down the nutty ruling that created this mess, who the hell knows how this court would respond to Coleman gaming of the system.

Coleman has tried any number of high-risk gambits to stay in the lead. This is probably the only remaining gambit that could actually give Coleman a substantial lead. If Coleman is going to lose anyway, he seems to have absolutely nothing to lose by gaming the absentee count. If the court refused to punish such misconduct, Coleman could still "win" this thing.

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

evenswr said...
Am I the only one still laughing about this being great news for McCain? That one never gets old for me.

Evenswr posting the above is TREMENDOUS NEWS!!!!!! For John McCain!!!!!

livemild said...

uncertain about being uncertain-
well some of us are very CERTAIN that this is all uncertain.

and thanks abowers for echoing my thoughts. i have to read some of this 2 or 3 times to figure out SOME of this mess in MN. your questions were good too.


one last thing i heard that some new numbers were coming out this weekend but that waws never clarified. why the board would do any counting this weekend is beyond me. we all know it wont be decided until way after the new year.

TINAandRON said...

This is AWESOME news for McCain

Peter said...

If the campaigns don't agree to count all of the improperly rejected absentee ballots (those that don't meet 1 of the 4 reasons for rejection under MN law), I think it will go back to the court and they mandate that they all be counted.

It seemed as though the Court just wanted to stay out of it and that is why it mandated that the campaigns agree while also saying, "In reviewing previously rejected absentee ballot envelopes for the purposes of reaching agreement whether the ballot envelope was rejected in error, the parties are reminded of their obligations under Min. R. Civ. P. 11 that by presenting a pleading or other paper to the court, any attorney or unrepresented party is certifying to the court that such pleading or other paper is not being presented for an improper purpose, such as to harass or to cause unnecessary delay or needless increase in the cost of litigation. In the event of a subsequent election contest under Minn. Stat. ch. 209 in which a party seeks a determination by the district court as to the propriety of the rejection of absentee ballots, parties and their counsel shall be subject to sanction for any previously rejected absentee ballot that was made available to the parties for review pursuant to paragraph 3 of this order and as to which the court determines the standards of Rule 11 were not met."

Justice Paul Andersen agreed that the court would ultimately be taking the case back up in his dissent, "I note that, although I disagree with the majority's order issued today, it is important to keep in mind that this is a result of a preliminary skirmish in what appears to be an extended legal contest regarding Minnesota's 2008 Senate Election. Winston Churchhill is reputed to have once said, in an admiring tone, that Americans ultimately do the right thing after having exhausted all of the alternatives. Sometimes, the wheels of justice and due process take time to fully turn. While I believe that we have incorrectly exhausted one alternative today, I have complete confidence that ultimately the right thing will be done and all validly cast absentee ballots will be properly counted"

http://www.mncourts.gov/Documents/0/Public/Other/2008%20Elections/Order.12.18.08.pdf

Daniel said...

Seriously, what is the 'great news! For John McCain' from?

STepper said...

Coleman's lawyers painted him in a corner. Taking the typical Rethuglican suppression tactics (since Coleman was ahead on election day), Coleman has steadfastly opposed letting every vote count.

But, when you're behind you need to find ballots behind the radiator, in the trunk of the car or, in this case, among the wrongly rejected absentee ballots. And Coleman has taken the other side of the issue.

Franken at least is more principled. But he has no incentive at this point to open the absentee envelopes.

The Minnesota Supreme Court committed the typical sin of many courts -- you guys work it out. (Why, then, have courts and judges to decide?) Since one party is institutionally opposed to "working it out" and the other party has no incentive to do so, this is going to be a stalemate.

Coleman will get another 2-3 months inthe Senate, as Pawlenty's appointee, but that's going to be it.

Of course, under the George HH (Herbert Hoover) Bush model, he would have been appointed to some cabinet post (such as AG), but in this case Norm will be allowed to retire to his corruption case defense.

sfergus said...

--I suspect a race with 50,000 voters and a disputed margin of 100 votes would be fought over like a bone between two junkyard dogs.--

Not sure about that. That's the same as a 6000 vote difference in the MN Senate race. This would have been over a long time ago if that had been the margin.

sfergus said...

The US Senate will almost certainly NOT seat Pawlenty for a vacancy that has happened solely because he is stopping this from being resolved.

An appointment would be valid until the 2010 election. How could Pawlenty appoint someone to serve temporarily in a manner that is extralegal according to MN law?

The Senate determines who its members are ultimately. Coleman is not going to be a temporary Senator. Either he wins or he loses, no middle ground.

William Land said...

This is so complicated and stressful!
My question:

Do we know that all of the withdrawn Franken challenges, when added back into the totals, will increase the tally for Coleman?
Could some of the withdrawn Franken challenges be on ballots originally cast for some other candidate (i.e. not Coleman)?
Thus, when these votes are added back in, they would not necessarily add to Coleman's tally?

Any thoughts on this one?

William Land said...

2nd question:

Star tribune says 1325 counted, Franken leads 251
www.mpr.ors says 1332 counted, Franken leads 262

Which is correct?

eugenian said...

The Minnesota Supreme Court committed the typical sin of many courts -- you guys work it out. (Why, then, have courts and judges to decide?)

I think the court is wary of diminishing the election's legitimacy (i.e. the public perception that it's a valid and fair election). When a court is perceived to "pick a winner," it's bad for the democratic process. Thus, judges and justices usually are wont to take such a role. SCOTUS' Bush v. Gore decision was bad for the image of the courts and bad for the democratic process, and SCOMN knows it.

Sean Obama said...

You are an idiot, 'Nate', and I know it!

Statler N Waldorf said...

W is giving money to the Big Three automakers now that Congress failed to do so. How much do you want to bet this is a desperate attempt to accomplish at least one popular thing before he leaves office, so his legacy won't be as bad as it would ahve otherwise been?

loner said...

The State Canvassing Board will certify a result after 4:00 PM on 12/31 and the Senate will swear in the certified winner on 1/6 unless the courts order the State Canvassing Board not to certify. There's little reason to think at this point that the courts will do so.

MarkDD said...

Wait, didn't Nate Silver say Norm Coleman would pick up +385 votes when they count the withdrawn challenges?

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/12/franken-appears-likely-to-lead-after.html

Spam210wal said...

Daniel:

When McCain was doing well in the polls following the RNC, a conservative poster flooded this comments section with posts proclaiming, "This is great news for John McCain!" When the numbers flipped and the outlook looked increasingly bleak for McCain, a lot of us here decided to post, "This is great news for John McCain!" at times when the news was bad for McCain. It turned into a running joke here that for a lot of us never gets old.

Sheldon Rampton said...

A couple of comments have suggested that Coleman could try to game the count of rejected absentee ballots to his advantage, by demanding a loose standard for inclusion in pro-Coleman districts and a tight standard in pro-Franken districts. I don't think this is possible, for two reasons:

(1) My understanding of the supreme court ruling is that both campaigns have to reach an agreement with Secretary of State and election officials on a consistent standard for determining which ballots are counted. There's nothing in that ruling that would enable either of the campaigns to establish an INconsistent standard that varies from district to district. Coleman's options are therefore limited to either (a) refuse to accept any standard whatsoever, thus making agreement impossible; (b) push for a restrictive standard to minimize the number of votes being counted; or (c) push for an loose standard to MAXIMIZE the number. If Coleman's behind, the only one of these options that gives him any chance at all is (c), which might improbably break his way.

(2) Even if Coleman COULD somehow figure out a way to game the system on a district-by-district basis, the Franken campaign would have the same ability, so this tactic would work out to a wash anyway.

Bob X said...

HAH! I predicted that when the Canvassing Board was done with the challenges, Franken would be at +250 weeks ago, based on the crudest of back-of-the-envelope arithmetic.
THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!! FOR THE LIZARD PEOPLE!!!

@David: way back in the primaries, some of the more delusional Hilary supporters kept spinning every development (whether good for Hilary, or more often bad) as Great News! For Hilary Clinton! This was widely mocked. It turned into Great News! For John McCain! during the general, as a way of rubbing it in (we had a lot of Repub trolls then) whenever something was really disastrous for McCain. It is one of our traditions, like "First!" (some people find that one really annoying) or interpreting the word verification ("Aliti"? Isn't that one of the Supreme Court Justices, who will really hate ruling for Al Franken?)

MarkDD said...

And another thing, Nate said that Franken would be ahead by 430 votes by the end of today. He's up by 251.

livemild said...

and another thing-coleman kept adding challenges today.

i am really sick of trimble for another thing.

Markdd-why do you need two d's

MarkDD said...

Adding challenge? There were 852 Coleman challenges according to the Star Tribune.

I just want to know my Nate Silver's predictions changed in the last 12 hours.

Is the +385 votes for Coleman still valid?

eugenian said...

Thanks for your valuable insights, MarkDD.

Sorry about your man-boobs.

just_looking said...

MarkDD,

Nate assumed Coleman had many more outstanding challenges.

MarkDD said...

I then have Franken losing a net of about 385 ballots once withdrawn challenges are processed, as Franken has more withdrawn challenges that Coleman, most of which are Coleman ballots. This would leave him with a small surplus.

Color me confused.

Matthew Black said...

I just read that Nate came out, can someone verify this?

RufusRules said...
This post has been removed by the author.
mediapost said...

@MarkDD,

Bottom line is this. Franken is ahead by 251. Franken has 2806 withdrawn challenges that need to be added back into the mix and Coleman has 2525 withdrawn challenges that need to be added back in. 2806 - 2525 = 281 excess Franken challenges. If all the remaining challenges on both sides are issued against the opponents votes then Franken will end this phase behind by 30. However, there is a fair amount of evidence that suggests that Franken's challenges contain a much higher percentage of undervote challenges. For one thing, of the challenges that have been reviewed so far, 81% of Coleman challenges were to Franken ballots, and 60% of Franken challenges were to Coleman ballots, also, see previous posts on this page for more evidence. So, if Franken's remaining challenge pool contains 31 more challenges to undervotes than Coleman's pool then Franken will come out ahead by 1 at the end of this phase.

MarkDD said...

Thanks for the response Mediapost, but I still want to know if Nate changed his +385 number and why.

If you add 2806 and 2525 = 5331 withdrawn challenges.

However, according to the Star Tribune, there are 5432 withdrawn challenges left.

The Dude Abides said...

Thanks Jenna!

Redshift said...

1sunnyday:
If the court refused to punish such misconduct, Coleman could still "win" this thing.

The court made it pretty explicit in the opinion that they would punish misconduct and failure to conduct the process in good faith, so I don't see any reason to assume they wouldn't follow through.

mediapost said...

Hmm, that is weird about the Star Tribune 5432 number. I don't know where that comes from. I got my numbers by comparing the STrib's tallies of reviewed challenges with the SOS listing of overall challenges (3278 for Franken and 3377 for Coleman). I think Nate's estimate of 385 excess challenges by Franken was based on 2 things, one, Coleman was supposed to submit about 1000 challanges, he only submitted 852 (that may hasve been because of the blue folder, not sure about taht) and Franken also submitted about 60 today. I don't think that was expected... at least not by me.

Michael (mbw) said...

@Sheldon Rampton et al.

The ruling unfortunately doesn't say just that consistent rules must be agreed upon. It says that counting each individual ballot must be agreed upon. Both sides have party voter lists, and the envelopes have names. The system can be gamed at the individual level, much more precisely than at the county level. This is a fucking mess, as two of the MNSC stated. (Maybe not in those words, it being MN and not my IL.)

mediapost said...

I agree mbw, the fact that they created a ruling that allows for legally cast ballots to be excluded from the count is ridiculous. The only hope is of avoiding a law suit is if the margin between the candidates exceeds the 5th pile ballots that don't get counted.

DCM in FL said...

MEDIAPOST

your assumption is correct. Coleman moved the 'goalposts' on Nate & Franken today with more challenge withdrawals & blue folder 'limbo' ballots.

Nate's prediction yesterday that Franken would end today +385 presumed 1000 Coleman challenges to be 'resolved' by the canvassing board. Instead only 852 were resolved, so that takes about 148 off the Franken projected #'s & is in line with Nate's 'prediction'.

Still awaiting the re-assignment of all those thousands of withdrawn challenges on both sides, but it does appear that in the end of this phase on Monday [?] that the Franken advantage should expand a bit more.

then we progress to the blue folder resolutions [if possible] and finally the FUN of the absentee ballots.

Still, IMHO everything is looking good for Al at the moment - and that is GREAT news for Norm Colmean...

Lucas said...

@ Daniel:

The "GREAT NEWS!!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!" thing comes from way back in the primaries where some guy declared absolutely everything to be great news for Hillary Clinton, no matter what it was. That then got carried over to be great news for John McCain, and that's stuck ever since.

Which is GREAT NEWS FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!!!

DCM in FL said...

BTW - I did not intend to imply that all of the 148 withdrawn challenges would have ended up in the Franken column. SOme would be overvotes, etc...

If 90% of those challenges withdrawn would have been resolved in Franken's favor [+133] then that would have ended up right at Nate's 385+/- projection [251 + 133]

Nice work as usual by the Big Poblano !!!

Smart move of sorts by Colmean - but IF they had really thought it through they woulda/shoulda/coulda withdrawn hundreds MORE frivilous challenges today to keep their candidate in the lead over the weekend.

All of the media reports are leading with FRANKEN LEADS IN MN - a PR disaster for Norm...

WV - clify [sounds like a Colertism - so much truthiness in this recount]

Vinny said...

The "great news for ___!!!!" is from pundits trying to act like Obama wasn't blowing McCain out of the water, so they could still say it was a horse race.

Therefore, they found any speck of good news they could for McCain, while ignoring how great Obama was doing, and declaring it GREAT NEWS!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!

DCM in FL said...

'Colmean' - is intentional...

'Colertism' - oops. a typo for Colbert of course

WV - painger [caused by my bad typing & by the Colmean + the endless MN recount]

KWRegan said...

@mediapost and others e.g. MarkDD above: Some ballots were challenged by both parties. In particular, 6 Apple Valley Franken challenges shown as "unresolved" prior to today on the SoS spreadsheet were also in Coleman's list of 1,016, plus 1-3 others.

Such cases go as 2 resolved challenges but only 1 resolved ballot. They may account for the differences we see.

hill.tops said...

Daniel said...

it refers to how Mark Halperin of The Page and other Neo-Con toadies would ALWAYS say bad news for McCain was really GREAT NEWS FOR McCain.

Here's an actual example, the August jobs report showed horrible job lose, and a McCain neo-con went on David Gregory's "race for the white house" show and said the loss in jobs was great news for McCain because he supported NAFTA, unlike Obama.

About that time, McCain had gone to Canada and made a big speech defending NAFTA, which of course was toxic in the rust belt.

Vinny said...

Another example would be:

*Obama leads all PA polls by double digits. Obama leads in ONE PA poll by 5 points.* "This is GREAT NEWS!!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!"

MarkDD said...

@mediapost and others e.g. MarkDD above: Some ballots were challenged by both parties. In particular, 6 Apple Valley Franken challenges shown as "unresolved" prior to today on the SoS spreadsheet were also in Coleman's list of 1,016, plus 1-3 others.

Thanks KWRega, but wouldn't ballots challenged by both parties be in the 5331 count as well?

That's what makes the 5432 count at the Star Tribune unusual.

hill.tops said...

Vinny-

Exactly. The same way McCain insisted at the very end when he was down in all the polls how he "really" had Barack, "right where we want him"

Bob X said...

Matthew Black said "... I just read that Nate came out, can someone verify this?"

I didn't know Nate was ever in ;-)

All these people explaining and re-explaining the Great News! meme is
GREAT NEWS!!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!11!!!

Opus 132 said...

I read this on The Uptake:

In the midst of a recession and just four weeks after the collapse of America's investment banks, a constitutional amendment to fund the arts and environment by implementing a 3/8% sales tax increase for the next 25 years was more popular in Minnesota than any political candidate, including President-elect Barack Obama, who received 60,000 votes less than the tax-increase.


Wow! What an enlightened state Minnesota is.

fred said...

MN is one ctazy state, of course, you have to be nuts to want to llive in that weather.

This race is just too close to call and the absentee ballot ruling by the MNSC seesm very strange. If one candidate wants the ballot counted, but the other does not, is there a mechanism to break the tie or is that voter just disenfranchised - which seems like an equal protection violation to me.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Hey Fred, after you've been thru a few hurricanes, a little snow doesn't sound half bad :)

Minneapolis I could see living in. Prince is from there, so how bad could it be? Rochester, I dunno about. Seems most of the voters there are GOP, so my guess is they're not very friendly.

never been to Minnesota, but they seem like okay people. When they're not electing the WWF to be the governor, that is.

Maybe the only way to break the tie is to win your opponent over somehow. You'd have to be a pretty good politician to pull that off, which is probably not a bad way to make sure Minnesota gets the best Senator possible out of the deal.


I just hope Franken develops a silver tongue and Coleman decides he doesn't want it as bad as he thought he did

Davy said...

Whoa, Statler. Put the bottle down and delete your drunken posts. We'll forgive you, crawdad.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Davy,

I have nothing to feel apologetic about. I do appreciate your concern, though.

:)

Herunar said...

Guys, remember that Franken has much better lawyers and is a much smarter guy than Coleman. There's no way Coleman could game the system and win Franken by it.

livemild said...
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livemild said...
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mhz said...

sorry this is off topic but I really like to read what folks here have to say-

YEAH- TARP money is being used directly for economic stimulus- YAHOOIE (ie auto industry bailout)

How do we tell, encourage, force, cajole, insist, mandate, affect congress to hold onto every last penny of TARP until worthy industries ask for it.

Mind you I am not implying that Chrysler or GN are particularly worthy but they do provide livelihoods DIRECTY to lots of middle income families.


Second issue-
What is the "best option going forward" from this first big shit hole (excuse my language) president-elect Obama generated.

Should Rick warren be pulled? Can Warren be forced to share the stage ?

I have been ceremonies with that had two clergy presiding.

What would Warren do if he had to share the stage with an openly gay clergy????

BTW- I think the Strib projections have Franken getting about 49% of all challenges -i was close there

But I was way off I thought Coleman was only going to get about 28% of all challenges- but Strib say it is closer to 45%

Opus 132 said...

Should Rick warren be pulled? Can Warren be forced to share the stage ?

As a non-believer,I don't give a damn who gives the invocation.I would wish for no invocation or benediction.

Hey,how about the Pope sharing the stage with Warren.After all,Warren is no more anti-gay than Benedict.What a farce.

mhz said...
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mhz said...

Opus you have a great point-

Warren sharing the stage with a openly gay anti-deist humanist.


Was Jefferson an out-of-the-closet atheist? If not was he the closest we have had to an out-of-the-closet atheist as a president? I had a small panic attach back in the 90s at the thought that Bill Clinton might actually believe in "God".

Nevertheless I do love the part in "The Color Purple" when Shug tells Celie that she has got to get that old white guy off her eye ball when she thinks about God- It is that scene from which the book gets its title.


This may Warren thing may be a farce- but I am afraid is still a stink hole that has to be dealt with. I am glad Obama is reaching out to those he has not yet got on board, but.... At one point Jon Stewart asked "How and when will he breat our hearts" Salazar- Warren and as I understand it there were better picks for the Secretary of Food (oops I mean Agriculture)

Opus 132 said...

The environmental groups are really upset about Salazar.

mhz said...

Opus you have a great point-

Warren sharing the stage with a openly gay anti-deist humanist is a much better idea.


Was Jefferson an out-of-the-closet atheist? If not, was he the closest we have had to an out-of-the-closet atheist as a president? I had a small panic attach back in the 90s at the thought that Bill Clinton might actually believe in "God".

Nevertheless, I do love the part in "The Color Purple" when Shug tells Celie that she has got to get that old white guy off her eye ball when she thinks about God. It is that scene from which the book gets its title.


This Warren thing may be a farce, but I am afraid is still a stink hole that has to be dealt with. I am glad Obama is reaching out to those he has not yet got on board, but I am afraid that Rachel Maddow and many others will have a very hard time looking the other way, and rightly so.

At one point Jon Stewart asked "How and when will he break our hearts" Salazar and Warren are a start for me- and as I understand it there were better picks for the Secretary of Food (oops I mean Agriculture).

President is a awful job, but I am still glad Obama is the one who has to do it.

Opus 132 said...

And the Warren thing,as bad as it is,will be over on Jan.21.Salazar,however,will still be there.

Opus 132 said...
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Opus 132 said...
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Opus 132 said...

Warren sharing the stage with a openly gay anti-deist humanist is a much better idea.

Hey,if either Statler or Waldorf is anti-deist,he'd be perfect for the job. :-))

fred said...

As for the TARP money being used for any and all industries, I am against it. It think we need the TARP to stabilize the banks and get a major industry or two through this - the auto industry being one. I am also for the UAW waking up and smelling the coffee.

Here is a great article on the current state of the economy, make sure youy click through and read the counter-argument via the link at the bottom of the article.

http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12813430&source=hptextfeature

fred said...

On the later point - a humanist would be great, I think even a god Satanist might be a good choice.

Lindsey said...

He's good enough. He's smart enough, and doggone it, people like him.

P.S. Congratulations to Mr. Silver on the Businessweek mention.

fred said...

Holy Crap! Nate is everywhere! Go search Google news for "Nate Silver"

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=nate+silver&btnG=Search+News

mhz said...

No offense to the less evil Satanists out there, but I have suffered long enough with a Satanist (VP D. Cheney) acting as guide and chief adviser to our President.

I hope Obama keeps the Satanist a safe distance for the time being

@Fred-

Thanks for the link- The counter argument was much more compelling to me than Greenspan's perspective. Still I see very little reason to use banking institutions as intermediaries in the Economic Stimulus projects. I think we should take the George Baily approach rather than the Mr. Potter approach.

The big investors and stock holders just cannot be trusted at this point. Moreover, they have not been investing in the right industries for over 20 years. We should not be funneling money through institutions that do not have serving the public interest as a principle, a sworn oath, or a significant part of their track record.




" It may be said there there exist no limit to the blindness of interest and selfish habit" Charles Darwin April 1832


The financial institutions in the US have been developing very bad habits and very selfish interests for far too long to be trusted right now.
We need all eyes wide open and all hands on deck right now. IMnsHO (ns= not so)

Again thanks for the link- it is greatly appreciated. I am new to the blogosphere, and I have trouble navigating to the best info. The leads i find here are wildly helpful.

WV nunsun- hum the son of a playful Catholic nun.

fred said...

My favorite sites include this one, economist.com, and sciencedaily.com

Well, as a true agnostic I think a satanist would be as fitting as Warren or Wright.

Are there any actions in this MN count today?

Skeptic said...

Fred said: "Are there any actions in this MN count today?"

I think the Lizard People, Bret Favre, and Frankenstin are all going out to dinner tonight.

I think the canvassing board has adjourned for the weekend and will start working on adding in the thousands of withdrawn challenges for both sides into the the totals. SoS Ritchie said they should have figures Tuesday if I remember correctly. The MN supreme court hears arguments Tuesday on the latest Coleman lawsuit to prevent counting what he claims are duplicate ballots. It should be an interesting week.

ipv6 said...

this is very USA

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

The one thing I saw in the recount/challenged ballots that doesn't seem accounted for in the discussion of withdrawn challenges is the high number of attempts to swing 3rd party votes to either Franken or Coleman. After all 250 or so of the 1300+ challenges were awarded to third parties or no one, so it seems if that ratio carries over Coleman is unlikely to gain enough votes to erase Franken's current lead.

Since we seem to be going off on the Rick Warren thing:

When Warren was first picked, my reaction was to shrug. I wish we didn't have invocations at secular events at all, but I understand they are expected. As Warren is very popular with white evangelicals and has a pre-existing working relationship with Obama, it seemed like no big deal. I assumed he was savvy enough that gay-hate would not be part of his official message, and frankly just about any high profile religious figure who could be seen as an effort at inclusion of evangelicals in Obama's America (remember, folks, that's the overall message) would have the same stance. It wouldn't be popular with the far left, but neither was Lincoln's call for compassion for the South in his Second Inaugural.

Now, though, Warren keeps making the hole deeper. The revelation that he supports "curing" gay people, bans practicing homosexuals from his church membership and other issues is far beyond the run of the mill opposition to gay marriage. I'm now wondering if there's any way he can develop paralysis of the vocal chords between now and then to allow for a diplomatic exit. His replacement will likely have similar views on gay marriage but may not have quite such a bad case of foot in mouth disease.

William Land said...

My question:

Star Tribune says Franken up by 251
Minnesota Public Radio says Franken up by 262

Which is correct?!

gsp said...

Nate notes that the only agency that could give a re-vote is the Democratic controlled U.S Senate. And the chances of that are next to none. Let us not forget we are talking about the Democratic controlled U.S Senate, you know the one that allowed Lieberman to retain his chairmanship, the one that has backed down from every fight over the last 8 years (though recognize in the minority most of that time). If it goes to the US Senate, I'd be shitting bricks. There isn't a beating these sorry ass wimps wouldn't agree to take.

This post says it all:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/19/11149/810/426/674872

UNRR said...

This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 12/20/2008, at The Unreligious Right

Dmitry said...

This is GREAT NEWS!!! For SENATOR-ELECT NORM COLEMAN!!!!!!!!!!

mhz said...

@ipv6

What is very USA?

My apologies to the Satanist- Cheney is satanic not a Satanist.

Sorry for all the Cheney bashing- I just cannot believe our tax dollars have been paying his salary and funding all the cruelty he has designed, authorized, and implemented. I really do feel like I have been financially supporting one of the most powerful and evil leaders in the world, and IT SUCKS.


UWBHS if you are out there does the MN SoS have nice spreadsheets like:

http://www.sos.state.mn.us/docs/colemanchallengelist1217.xls

for the original 6000+ challenges or any of the other challenges the CB did not rule on. I am having a hard time waiting to see more of the data-

I am SO hoping that Franken's withdrawn challenges has a good 30% "Type 2" ballots- A report from Day two of the CB

http://politicalblogs.startribune.com/bigquestionblog/?elr=KArks8c7PaP3E77K_3c::D3aDhUxWoW_oD:EaDUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

had 15% (64/414) of Franken's challenegs being definite "Type 2" challenges
ie Franken won the challenge and got the vote.

another 28% (117/414)
being "Type 2s" that Franken lost or "Type 1s" that Franken won.

These numbers and this interpretation may be off because the CB reviewed some of Coleman's challenges on 12/16&12/17.

Is there any hope that >75% of Franken's remaining challenges will be Type 2 and more than 85% of Coleman's remaining challenges will be "Type 1". UGH this waiting is horribly consuming.

I tried to figure out what the respective breaks on the remaining Coleman and Franken challenges need to be for Franken to increase his lead by the end of CB's work. Unfortunately my math is so rusty I will need help. Its very nice to have friends that can do math at the high school level and beyond. I should get an answer over dinner.


wv-dunnic- a wardrobe piece for a science fiction movie.

mhz said...

@fred

I just reread my post to you, and uh I am sorry, it was overkill.

Thanks for the other links.

Mark A. Sadowski said...

Nate,
Normally I would agree with your analysis completely but I think you've misinterpreted Tony Trimble's admonishment over challenges to duplicates. There is no inconsistency between his original position and the petition. The Coleman campaign wants to count all duplicates for which there is no original, they just don't want to count every original for which there is no duplicate. Presumable the reasoning is that duplicates without originals are not double votes because the original was destroyed. However, originals without duplicates represent a double count. Evidently they think they can pick up 50 votes through this process. What are your (or anyone's) thoughts on this? If this and the Franken 70-78 vote margin are true then this is going to be nail biter without getting more votes from the improperly challenged absentee ballots.

mediapost said...

Hey Latte,

How did your 2 challenges end up?

ShadowGunman said...

@Mark

Here's how I read it working. The Coleman campagin has challenged more duplicates (atleast 100 more) than the Franken campagin, and they are throwing this to see if they can get those challenges upheld, but the no court could give them that ruling since Franken has evidence that they didn't get fair challenge rights on these ballots. So the court would have to rule as such:

A: Conclude that this may be a possibility and that the state must reopen the recount and pretty much restart the whole month and a half long process, or...

B: Tell Coleman that in light of the fact they can not prove (the burden is on the accuser) and because his is just one of many theories on the nature of these ballots, they cannot in fact rule in favor of whatever pops into his brain.

I have my bias, but in reflection of the messy ruling they gave last week, I would give option A the better shot. Even though option A is a retarded farce.

There is a option C and that is rule that only the challenges that are currently made are valid, and that in their opinion the CB must uphold said challenges and move these to no votes.

That being said if they did this they would be giving the seat to Coleman, and as I posted before, almost the entire court as been appointed by Pawlenty this may look like a partisan move (the state has voted in Supremes, but they all left mid term so that Pawlenty could make some appointments instead). Someone correct me if I am wrong.

DCM in FL said...

MARK

this missing original v. duplicate 'issue' is a canard IMHO.

the 'originals' have to be easy to spot since they were either on plain copy paper [and so could not be scanned] OR they were damaged bad enough that they could not be scanned by the machine...

plus they were supposed to be plainly marked by the election judge at the time the 'duplicate' card was created...

so, for the 'missing' originals that became separated from the duplicates - how hard to it be to pick them out of the known precinct envelopes [IF they even still exist] ???

the location of the 'dups' is supposedly tallied & logged, right ?

so they would stand out as sore thumbs in an inspection - which was just completed !!!

plus, a second backup method is just to check the original precinct counts vs. the recount #'s to see if the vote tallies are 'off' and compare it to known/declared 'dups' in each precinct...

so simple, but that is not what the Colmean campaign want to admit - that there are already measures in place to prevent their alleged 'double-counting' - or that there is no reason to assume that any potential 'double count' would favor Al as opposed to Norm.

Same for the absentee count of improperly DQed ballots - it might even favor Colmean [perhaps they are overseas military voters ballots], but the issue is really just to be obstructionists & probaly now they want to 'hope' the senate requires a special election as their last/best option.

Norm 'might' actually prevail in a low voter turnout [ala Chambliss], but it appears Colmean will lose the recount by a razor thin margin IF the ballots are allowed to be properly assigned... fwiw

Opus 132 said...

@ gsp

Nate notes that the only agency that could give a re-vote is the Democratic controlled U.S Senate. And the chances of that are next to none. Let us not forget we are talking about the Democratic controlled U.S Senate, you know the one that allowed Lieberman to retain his chairmanship, the one that has backed down from every fight over the last 8 years (though recognize in the minority most of that time). If it goes to the US Senate, I'd be shitting bricks. There isn't a beating these sorry ass wimps wouldn't agree to take.

If it goes to the Senate,it won't be this Senate.It'll be the new Senate with 7 additional Democrats. Hopefully,this will encourage Harry The Inept to grow a pair.


WV-comet um,comet

Another Mike said...

The court made it pretty explicit in the opinion that they would punish misconduct and failure to conduct the process in good faith, so I don't see any reason to assume they wouldn't follow through.

This is mostly a hollow threat as every experienced litigator knows. In practice, Rule 11 sanctions are only leveled for egregious misconduct. In cases like this, there's always enough ambiguity for someone to bend the rules quite a bit and get away with nothing more than a scolding. Do not count on threatened Rule 11 sanctions to deter gamesmanship.

Another Mike said...

Second issue-
What is the "best option going forward" from this first big shit hole (excuse my language) president-elect Obama generated.


Not even an issue. All goes forward as planned. Those who are offened either get over it or they don't.

Charlie said...

Why does Uncle Norm hate democracy so?

Bob X said...

Opus 132 said "... And the Warren thing,as bad as it is,will be over on Jan.21."
No, it won't. Obama's endorsement will give him more media attention to spew his bile for years to come. And the right will take it as a signal from Obama that he really doesn't give a damn about gay issues, so those are the bills worth filibustering.

Cheeto Fontaine said...

Good use of simile and metaphor.

fred said...

Oh Jesus - Obama has said he disagrees with Warren, he is chenging no policies based on Warren, so you whining lefties can just STFU.

I think it is political genius to pick Warren. Obama is showing he is Pres of all the people.

Gays voted for Obama is fewer numbers than they voted for Kerry in any case...if you want his support you need to show it.

fred said...

BTW I am for gay marriage, and equal protection in all ways. That said, this is politics.

mhz said...

hey Fred
Check out Krugman yesterday-

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/19/opinion/19krugman.html

Granted it is an oped, but we should by-pass Wall Street to the extent that we can for the foreseeable future. They are out of whack and still doing damage.

The one that never gets old for me is:

" It may be said there there exist no limit to the blindness of interest and selfish habit" Charles Darwin April 1832

The whole entry and context for this quote is available at Darwin Online.
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?viewtype=text&itemID=F59&keywords=be+no+limit+it+the+blindness+of+may+to+is+there+said&pageseq=54

It is a beautiful, real-time commentary on slavery. Darwin's insight on the dangers of what whinny lefties like me call "Privilege". And the privilege of wealth can be pretty dangerous.

I still think Obama sends the strongest "build-one-nation" and "we-all-have-a-place-at-the-table" messages by having Warren share the stage Jan 20 2009; it is a BIG DAY in history. Maybe not as big as Nov 4, but the world will be watching and listening.

green libertarian said...

I agree that originals that couldn't be read by the machine that somehow did not get segregated out on election night and somehow got into the pile of normal ballots would be discovered during the hand recount process, whether or not they were labeled, and put with the pile originals, see (maybe) if there's a dupe.

Coleman is claiming that in certain precincts, there are x number of more votes tallied than voters verifed as having cast a ballot, and that where there is also less dupes than their are originals, the dupes were thrown in the normal pile, and become double counted (first count, hand, counted the original).

Apparently there have been election (court) challenges in the past on this matter, the question is how were those resolved at trial?

Opus 132 said...

@ Fred

And the right will take it as a signal from Obama that he really doesn't give a damn about gay issues, so those are the bills worth filibustering.

Obama will prove the right wrong re this assumption
when,in about 6 months or so,he requests elimination of DADT.

DCM in FL said...

you guys who support Warren for giving the invocation are just plain wrong-headed [as is Barack's explanation].

This 'pastor' [and I use that term while biting my tongue] is nothing more than a publicity seeking ego-monster in many ways whi is paling Obama big-time.

He is welcome, as are all, to participate in the inauguration - but Barack has appointed Warren as a FEATURED SPEAKER to OPEN the event !!! That carries a real message - and it is a bad one indeed.

Appeal to the right-wing anti-abortion pro-war discriminatining bigots over your core base & the center ???

That is a terrible way to start the day. Let Warren on the steps, but he should NOT be allowed to open his mouth and give him additional prestige as someone who gives advice to the POTUS.

Sorry, but I asked the campaign to refund my contributions & to remove my name from the mailing lists. I did NOT do GOTV to make sure Obama won in FL to support this type of pandering to hypocrites of the worst kind...

RufusRules said...

@ Fred,

Yes, it is politics, and it's bullshit. Warren has compared gay relationships to incest and pedophilia, which is utterly outrageous. This clown should not be given a platform, no matter what Obama eventually does policy-wise.

Re the gay vote for Kerry v. Obama, those stats were derived from people who were willing to identify themselves as gay to pollsters. Many gay voters are not willing to do that. Plus they were exit polls which, if you've been reading this site for a while, you know are notoriously unreliable.

Look, if the queer community wants to have its interests considered in policy decisions, it has to start making a LOT of noise. We've learned that from all you whiny righties (whom I believe are inherently incapable of shutting the fuck up).

lompe said...

I took the Strib Challenge - all the 6655 original challenges - and ended up with Franken winning by 82 votes.
After this week of allocations that number has risen.
When I compare 400 of my choices with 400 of the Canvassing Board's allocations, the Board has been kinder to Franken than I've been. After doing the math my projection is now a Franken win by 115.

The strange thing is that if I compare the number of "Everyone" from the STrib Challenge - the number Nate mentioned the STrib uses to project the final result - with the allocations, then Coleman gains 15 votes and is behind by only 25. The average reader initially gave more votes to Franken than the Board did, but the Strib still has a projection of +78 for Franken, not 25.

Anyway, the difference between these mock counts and the real count are likely to be a lot smaller for the rest of the ballots. These are withdrawn challenges and there should be little, if any doubt about where they belong.

Coleman needs a miracle to win this thing.

Opus 132 said...

From the Washington Post:

"President-elect Barack Obama yesterday defended his selection of megachurch pastor Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inauguration, saying that he disagrees with the minister's opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage but that there should be room for "dialogue" on such difficult social issues."

Interesting,in that when Obama appeared on TV with Warren and McCain BEFORE THE ELECTION he was anti-same sex marriage,

Now,that he's elected,he's for it? I sure hope so.

As to Warren's invocation,I'm against it but i'm not outraged.After all,he's not going to give a sermon but only invoke a non-existent fantasy god.

I'm very pro-Obama but recognize that he's a politician who sometimes has to play the political game,like (1) being anti-gay marriage before the election and pro after it,and (2) inviting Warren.

Craig said...

According to Franken's attorney, when the withdrawn challenges are allocated on Monday, Franken will have a 35-50 vote lead with only the rejected absentee ballots left to count (presumably on the 12/31 deadline given my the MN Sup. Ct.).

http://minnesotaindependent.com/20912/franken-will-keep-lead-and-become-senator-elect-his-attorney-says

Here's an important question though - if the duplicate ballots end up not being counted - how would that change things assuming a Franken lead of 35?

fred said...

Agreed to all, but lets face it - this gives Obama some cover when he changes don't ask, don't tell and DADT.

Relax.

ABowers said...

I think the way to resolve the absentee votes is as follows:
1.The precincts should be ordered to continue sorting through the uncounted absentee ballots with wrongly challenged put in a separate pile five. Coleman and Franken can have observers.
2. All ballots in pile five should be sent to the Secretary of State (SOS) along with a copy of the proof that the ballot was WRONGLY rejected. For example, if it was rejected because the voter was NOT registered, then a copy of the voter's registration should be attached.
3. The SOS and representatives from Franken and Coleman go through the ballots. Those they all agree should be counted go in one pile. Those they all agree should NOT be counted go in a second pile. Those they don't agree on go in a third challenged pile.
4. The ballots in pile one are opened and counted with both campaigns allowed to challenge the ballots.
5. The challenged unopened ballots from pile 3 and the challenged opened ballots are sent to the Board. The board rules on the challenges and the votes are awarded.

RufusRules said...

@ Opus: ...he's a politician who sometimes has to play the political game

Fair enough. I understand that he wants to court the religious crowd, but aren't there dozens of well-known preachers out there (I'm not religious and know little of these things) that Obama could have chosen who don't have such an openly hostile agenda towards gay people?

Anyway, should Obama prove to be the "fierce advocate of equality for gay and lesbian Americans" he claims, the gay community will get over the Warren b.s. quickly. I look forward to seeing him walk that talk.


wv: fluronog: a cavity-fighting Christmas cocktail. Mmmm.

Craig said...

But wait...

You can see the Coleman's duplicate challenges here: http://www.mncourts.gov/Documents/0/Public/Other/2008%20Elections/Affidavit_of_Amy_S._Walstien_.PDF

Based on a quick count of 136 duplicate challenges 121 are Franken votes, 15 Coleman, and 1 Other.

Thus if the Supreme Court stops these form being counted, that is a swing of 106 votes for Coleman, which would give him a lead in the range of 60-80.

What is unclear to me at this time is whether Franken has similar duplicate challenges in his pocket that we haven't heard about (because he wants all duplicates counted). His campaign has talked in the canvassing board about 300 some incident reports, some of these I believe being "duplicate issues."

My best guess is that he has some, but not as many as the 106 net Coleman has - the guess being based on the assumption that each campaign is taking the side on this issue that nets them the most votes.

My guess is that the Supreme Court will not allow the duplicates to be counted, but will they enjoin the canvassing board from counting them, or will Coleman have to wait for an election challenge?

Then what is the remedy? It will take some significant work to sort out, since some counties already double counted their duplicates and due to the prior agreement of the parties and/or local officials preventing it, no challenges were made of those double counts.

So pursuant to Bush v. Gore, we need a standard system across all counties. The simple answer would be to just double count all of them and presume they balance out across the state since the candidates were effectively tied in the vote. That probably won't fly, so we just hope that this can be sorted out without going through all the ballots again to find the originals/dupes.

RivierRatt said...

Al's campaign is saying that it expects to win by 35-50 votes.

Here's a link.

MNLatteLiberal said...

@Craig,
imho, per "my post" in the previous thread, MN SC will not grant Coleman an inch if only because it will violate equal protection clause, since Franken was NOT ALLOWED to challenge missing duplicates in three counties (Anoka, Wright and one that I forgot) acc. to Elias testimony to the CB last Thursday.

Furthermore, there are several items that Trimble continues to cite as fact even after they have been summarily debunked in regards to these missing duplicates as they pertain to potential overvoting.

IMHO, SC bent over backwards a couple of days ago to accommodate Coleman on the wrongly rejected missing ballots, and I bet they already regret it. This new case on duplicates is based on pure hearsay and is not substantiated by anything factual. MN Supremese will not give him anything henceforth. I look to a prompt dismissal on Wednesday.

~ Latte

fred said...

Warren is a true leftie for a evangelical. Obama did the best he could.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Hey all,

Posting a few clever paragraphs on someone else's blog is fun, but if you want to make a real difference, some sacrifice is required.


The folks over at Pink Panthers are organizing a hunger strike to protest Rick Warren's invocation at the inaugural ceremony.

Got a few pounds to lose, and want to prove you're more than just empty talk? Give a rat's ass about human rights? Want a story to tell your kids/grandkids about how you stood up for your beliefs and spoke truth to power?

Come on folks, it's time to act. It's takes guts to stand up to your enemies like Bush, but it takes even more guts to stand up to your friends like Obama. Hunger strikes work, as Ghandi proved when he kicked the British Empire out of India without spilling blood. Let's do this, and show we give a damn about our fellow Amwericans

PeixeGato said...

When I first heard that Obama had selected Warren to do the invocation at the inauguration, I was confused, angry, upset, and felt betrayed. But then when I heard the way the rabid right wingers on talk radio were reacting to it, I began to understand Obama's brilliant political move (I can say that I'd never want to play against Obama in a game of chess or poker). The right wing radio hosts were BLASTING Rick Warren up and down. They couldn't say enough negative things about him. They said Warren was a fake evangelical, not conservative enough, etc.

So what does this mean? Well, Rick Warren has one of the largest Evangelical followings in the country. He is young, photogenic, loves the spotlight, is a media whore, and knows how to motivate and mobilize his followers. If his followers hear the right wing talkers reacting to what they see as a great thing in such a negative and nasty manner, then they may begin to turn against the right wing talkers in defense of their pastor and spiritual leader (you know, the "don't nobody better say nothing bad about my pastor!" defense. More Evangelicals voted for Obama than they did for Kerry. Obama saw this as an opening. He saw that the cracks in the Republican base were beginning to expose themselves and this move was just one more hammer, tapping away at those cracks.

This works in two ways: 1) if he can get the Evangelical crowd fighting with each other and rallying against right wing talkers, then that further splits the Repub party's ever-so-important, but shrinking base. 2) The followers of Warren are now looking at Obama as someone who is willing to listen to them and show them an elevated level of respect (something they don't get much of from outside of their membership) and will (hopefully) become more willing to listen to what Obama has to say and respect his point of view as being valid. Until now, Evangelicals pretty much ignored anything a Dem had to say and dismissed it as "liberal anti-God propoganda"

You can't change someone's mind on an issue if they won't listen to what you have to say about it. This was Obama's way of getting an important and sizable part of the Evangelical crowd to not only listen to what he has to say, but to RESPECT his point of view.

Think about it this way, once a racist gains exposure and interaction with people he/she does not like on a personal level, that person begins to soften and realize that their racism was based on fear and ignorance and while it may take a lot of time, so begins the process of eliminating racism, at least in that individual's mind. The same is true with the Gay community. How many of these Evangelicals actually have a personal relationship with anyone who is Gay? And while Obama is not Gay, the more they are willing to listen to Obama, the more open they could become to understanding his point of view on Gays (i.e. they deserve to be treated equally, etc).

All through the campaign, progressives and moderates talked about how much they LOVED that Obama was willing to talk and engage people with whom he had significant differences. But once he reached out to do so, those same progressives slam him for doing just that. Just because he is doing it in a way that you wouldn't, doesn't make him a bad person. I mean, how many Evangelicals have you persuaded to drop their homophobia? Guess your method isn't working out so well, is it?

And to those who say why go with such a big-headed egomaniac? Well, if you want to get the most out of one shot, you don't go with some unknown nobody. This is also a game of PR. You go with the biggest personality and name you can think of. You go with the one who will get you the most media coverage. His goal is to make it so that every time one of those Rick Warren supporters turns on the TV, all they hear is that Obama picked their hero and spiritual idol to headline at the inauguration. If it was a lesser known person, not nearly as many people would care or be paying attention.

Obama is one of those uber-intellectual individuals who think and operate on a different level. It often takes a while to get what his plan is and why he makes the moves he does. But once you analyze it, you realize that the move is genius on many different levels.

I wish Progressives would stop being so dramatic about everything and let the man we elected do his thing. Why is it we are so unwilling to allow the people we elect the leverage they need to get things done? It really makes me believe that progressives live to complain.

mediapost said...

When the issue came up with the missing 133 ballots in Dinkytown one of the pieces of evidence that proved that the votes existed was the counts from the registration table. Don't we have similar counts in the precincts where the alleged double voting took place?

PS @Lattee - How did your challenges fare?

Statler N Waldorf said...

PeixeGato,

You have just made a very long and very impassioned explanation of how Rick Warren will help Obama score political points. If the only reason why you support Obama is just to get him elected, and that's it, then you're right.

If you actually want to change the way GLBT people are treated in this country, you're on the wrong track.

Let,s not bullshit ourselves. We don't need 12 or 13 paragraphs to sum up what we already know: Rick Warren is a raging homophobe that uses the pulpit to preach hate.


If that's who you want to be a leading voice in this administration (he is, after all, delivering the opening invocation of that administration and therefore voicing it's prayers), then you should ask yourself if you really wanted a change after all.

So, where do you stand? With the man, or with the cause? I didn't vote for the man. I voted for change.

What did you vote for?

Statler N Waldorf said...

Hunger Strike For Freedom

DCM in FL said...

FRED & PeixeGato,

You are making 'scuses for Barack's bad decision - but it is indefensible IMHO.

WHY does Obama & this country owe it to the evangelicals to honr them with delivering the invocation at OUR inauguration ???

the answer is ir is not owed or deserved

remember as I do, that for the past 2 years including on election night in Grant Park, Barack swore it was not about HIM, but the election is about US...

Where is the Catholic priest or Jewish Rabbi - both would be better reps on this historic day, and they speak more truth to power than this hypocrite.

A perfect invocation would have been appropriately delivered by the episcopal bishop of the DC cathedral [the one that the POTUS' always go to] - the very deserving & respected Bishop Chane.

DUMP WARREN - invoke CHANE, a man of the clothe that we ALL can believe in !!!

Sloanasaurus said...

The problem with the Star Tribune poll is that after a short time it becomes burdensome to review the entire ballot (it takes 5-10 sec for it to load sometimes) Meaning that most poll takers only look at the small window. During the Coleman challenges many votes were excluded and placed into the other pile because of "identifying marks" The star tribune poll takers would have ignored the identifying marks because they were not obvious to the average computer poll taker (they were only looking at the small screen). Moreover, the canvassing board was a lot tougher on ballots with identifying marks than the average person. Thus because Franken had more ballots rejected by the canvassing board with identifying marks, it is probable that the star tribune poll overstates Frankens votes.

commoncents said...

Great post... lets hope Norm pulls this one out...
Steve

COMMON CENTS
http://www.commoncts.blogspot.com

Sloanasaurus said...

People also forget that up to 10,000 non-citizens came out to illegally vote for Franken in this election. IN Minnesota you don't have to prove anything when you vote, you only have to prove that you live at a certain address. Thus, any illegal alien or legal alien can vote in Minnesota with no problem. Even if Franken wins by 10 votes it won't take much evidence gathering (checken the citizenship of those who signed the rolls) to prove that his election was a fraud.

ecarlson said...

@ mediapost

Dinkytown is the perfect example that makes it clear why you CAN'T use the sign in lists to figure out what's going on.

In Dinkytown, there was a suspiciously large 133 discrepancy between the initial machine count and the hand recount. One way to check it was to go back to the sign in lists, which had 134 more signatures than there were hand-counted votes. The only logical conclusion was that the ballots were actually missing. This argument was reinforced by the absence of one envelope in a series of numbered envelopes. The remaining discrepancy of one can be explained in a number of ways - for example, a single voter that signed in twice, or someone that signed in but didn't vote.

The difference with the duplicates is that they are probably distributed among about 200 precincts, or one per precinct. But a discrepancy of one can be explained in any number of ways. Indeed, they are commonplace, so you can't determine if there is a duplicate missing or not.

I'm not sure how to disentangle this mess. One way is to do a recount (yes, ANOTHER recount) where you go through each precinct where there is a challenged duplicate. You have a representative of each side sit there, along with a judge, and say, "hey, that looks like it might be an original!" The originals will always be mangled or otherwise damaged. In some cases, they'll find it's marked as a match, which solves the problem. In others, it won't be marked correctly, but if you look at the vote, you can tell it's probably a match. In others, no match will be found. Only in the second of these three cases is there any confusion about what to do.

This process should VASTLY reduce the unresolved cases, maybe low enough it won't make a difference.

DaveG said...

This Franken prediction of winning by 35-50 ballots.

Does this include the supposed 136 duplicate challenges?

green libertarian said...

The difference with the duplicates is that they are probably distributed among about 200 precincts, or one per precinct. But a discrepancy of one can be explained in any number of ways. Indeed, they are commonplace, so you can't determine if there is a duplicate missing or not.

In this post, by a Coleman partisan, sure, is a link to Coleman's docs wherein are named the specific precincts, specific ballots, difference of votes counted in hand recount vs. election night, duplicates missing (and therefore assumed double counted), etc. Most of the precincts have between 1000-2200 voters. The claimed double-counted ballots range from 1 per precinct all the way up to 23, in the various individual precincts, average seems to be around 5-6 per precinct.

By what methodology Coleman's team chose these precincts, I do not know. Minneapolis's election director, I forget her name, said in a PP article recently, she thought there was "probably" some double-counting.

http://www.politicsinminnesota.com/2008/dec18/1471/demystify-double-votes-ponder-perch

What I wonder is, at trial, what evidence has been persuasive to a court that double counting has occurred? Just the numbers being off 5 votes in 2000 some cast? Testimony by election officials saying, "yeah, we got real busy and just made the dupes and threw them in the regular pile"? Or????

WV-nohornb- The Boss will not be touring with his legendary saxophonist, who is recovering from a upper-respiratory infection.

RufusRules said...

PeixeGato:

Your post was just a long-winded version of the "sit down and shut up!" crap the gay community has been listening to from the Democrats forever. Whatever Obama's labyrinthine master plan may be, he has pissed off a lot of people who voted for him and he is being made aware of that. It's not being dramatic, it's participating in democracy.

Michael (mbw) said...

Once again, ecarlson represents the voice of reason.

@sloanasaurus: Your first post is very reasonable. The quantitative effect on the withdrawn challenges is very small, according to the STrib. It very likely is identical to the difference between the STrib "78" projection and the Franken "35 to 50' projection.

Your second post is a calmer version of what we've been hearing from a lot of R's from MN- the whole election is bad because the wrong sorts of people were voting. That was cited by several as a justification for the physical or bureaucratic destruction of the 133 Dinkytown votes. In this instance you just make up a number, with zero evidence.

RufusRules said...

One last comment.

If Obama really wants a counterbalance to Warren delivering the invocation, he should have Varla Jean Merman sing the national anthem.

green libertarian said...

While I find Warren's statements and beliefs utterly offensive, I am pursueded by PeixeGato's well crafted and expressed arguments. Admittedly, such political calculations are far above my paygrade.

I am a very simple believer, a Liberal Quaker, Society of Friends, as such have pretty minimal religious beliefs.

However, I'm on a board of Interfaith believers of all stripes which works towards promoting environmental action by people and congregations of faith. We've had some pretty good success changing the minds of some pretty religiously conservative folks and their leaders to change their ways and promote conservation, energy efficiency, and care for the environment. I'm sure some of them think I'm going to hell for my simple religious beliefs, oh well, they're wrong, don't really care about that.

Similarly, it was thru the efforts of prominent community religious leaders who have open and welcoming policies towards gay people that we were finally able to get the city council to approve city-employee domestic partnership benefits for their partners. We had to find the fundies for months. A journey of a 1000 miles begins with one step.

Despite the noisy death screams of the hard core religious right, the fact of the matter is the country as a whole has changed greatly since DADT was implemented, there is far more support today for gay rights then there was 25 years ago, Prop 8 was a very unfortunate anamoly. Much yet to be done, yes.

green libertarian said...

We had to find the fundies for months.

errr, should be:

We had to fight the fundies for months.

DaveG said...

Is Rick Warren forgiven by Obama for giving McCain the questions beforehand at the Saddleback forum?

DCM in FL said...

DaveG

excellent question about the Saddleback affair...

we all know - including Obama - that Warren 'lied' & Mac 'cheated'

and this is his just reqard ? the honor of giving the invocation to such a hypocritical LIAR who did all he could to try to elect McCain ??? and to make sure Prop 8 passed ???

sorry, Barrack but there is no good excuse.

guess we better hope Rahmbo does some behind the screen maneuvering to get Warren to decline the invite
----------------------------------
also, GreenLib said:

"...the fact of the matter is the country as a whole has changed greatly since DADT was implemented, there is far more support today for gay rights then there was 25 years ago, Prop 8 was a very unfortunate anamoly. Much yet to be done, yes."

Agreed - BUT the 'change' in the country did not come because of people like Warren, that's for sure. It came DESPITE their hateful discrimination & bigotry due to the refusal of GLBT and allies to back down from the fight and allow these injustices to continue unchallenged.

We must fight the powers that try to keep anyone down. Substitute 'black' or 'negro' for 'gay' in these preaching of Warren, and how does Obama find this defensible ??? Warren is the type who would still have it illegal to inter-marry for blacks & whites just like it was a short 50 years ago even in CA !!!

This is the SAME THING ! A travesty of justice, and there must be a high price paid for betrayal of the faith we put into Obama - or nothing will ever change for the better. We should not have to 'wait our turn' for another 25 years until this shameful generation of religious haters passes to their just rewards in eternal damnnation...

WV - moutfulo

Warren speaks with a moutfulo crapola


---------------------------------

Jason said...

The gay rights advocates who bash Rick Warren - a man of courage in relation to his professional peer group - have GOT TO remember that "On to Richmond!" didn't win the Civil War!

Grant and Sherman's more subtle and indirect strategy - one that most Radical Republicans didn't understand and almost got Lincoln defeated for re-election - thoroughly subdued the South. Let's give Obama the same chance we gave the victors of the Civil War and the final slayers of the slave system in the South.

I am furious at the way the gay community calls anyone who says marriage should be between one man and one woman "religious haters." It turns Christians of good will, like me, totally and permanently away from your cause - and I was publicly identifying as an ally, going to LBGT-themed events, and even dancing at a gay club as an undergraduate.

I won't say that "some of my best friends are gay", but I will tell this community that my bonds with several LBGT men and women of courage and goodwill are being fatally strained by the shrill anti-Rick Warren, anti-real and vital distinctions between the sexes, anti-traditional marriage rhetoric emanating from the left wing of the Democratic Party.

DCM in FL said...

JASON

you are trying to rationalize a hateful discrimination, nothing more.

Warren is a 'man of courage' ???

that is roflol - what courage ? he is a hypocrite, as are you btw...

despite that, you & your hater pastor are actually welcome to your shameful beliefs and we are not trying to harm you [despite the fact that you & Warren are trying to continue to harm US]

Barack has a choice to make - and the choice he made is WRONG to choose Warren for such a SPEAKING slot as THE representative of ALL religions for ALL americans.

BAD choices need to be confronted & called out for what they are.

Warren can go back to Saddleback Mtn & continue to spread his vicious lies & hate - but he should NOT be lauded for being chosen to give the invocation at MY inauguration [yes, it is mine as well as yours, remember that]

SHAME is as shame does

change does not come about by hope alone - it has come through the blood, sweat & tears of millions over many years

50 years ago Obama could not have possibly been elected POTUS - why should anyone else have to wait patiently for Warren to be struck dead by the real god before he realizes he is a hater & proud of his bigotry ???

you my friend are no friend of anyonme except a prisoner of your own self-serving beliefs apparently

WE are tired of 2-faced posers like yourself who speak out of both saides of their mouths

did you see Warren on Dateline talking about his gay friends ??? such a hypocrite & liar - actions speak louder than a liar's words

look in the mirror...

you could be next to have rights stripped from you...

DCM in FL said...

oh, and JASON my friend

it is LGBT [not LBGT or BLT...lol]

MNLatteLiberal said...

@mediapost re: my challenges

I honestly do not know. If you have a link to a where all the CB resolved challenges can be viewed/sorted by county, I'd appreciate it. Washington county must've come up late Wednesday afternoon, and I was in meetings so I could not monitor theuptake.

I have not seen my challenges withdrawn in the first 3 rounds of "orderly" withdrawals that SoS had posted on his site for both campaigns. Then w/d's got so hectic and spontaneous that even Noah Kunin of theuptake, who was monitoring the CB meeting live, could not track of what's being w/drawn. I chatted with him about that very item yesterday afternoon.

Here is what I suspect: two of my challenges were for overvote. There Coleman bubble was neatly filled out and the Franken (in one) and Barkley oval (in the other) had marks. Not as big as Coleman's. If those challenges made it to the Board, I suspect the Board would have ruled for Coleman. That seemed to be their m.o. on the two ovals filled. If one was filled neatly and completely, then the other one better've been pretty damn close, and mine were NOT that close, to be fair.

The other two I had were for an identifying mark. One was a fingerprint, and I have not seen the Board rule on fingerprints in any challenges that I watched/saw live. I have no idea how they handled that. AFAIR that was Woodbury P12, but the challenge # I do not know.

My last challenge would not have made it, based on what I saw. I am sure of that 100% now. It had a scribble mark, a pretty definitive scribble mark on the face right in the Senate race box. But CB pretty much hated those types of challenges, dismissing them instantaneously. I bet by the time they got to w's/Washington, Elias would have pulled that one altogether.

So, in short, I probably did very little good for Al. My only saving grace :) is that in that stack of Woodbury/P12(?) I was observing, we came across a Franken vote undetected by the machine. I wrote about that already a while back: the voter made all his own ovals to the right of the names. The "found" vote even went unchallenged for as long as it could've, until the second Coleman site coordinator flagged it at the end. But the way the Board voted on those, I am sure the Franken vote held.

Then again, anyone would've made the same "discovery" in my spot too.

Finally, another Coleman observer let an absentee ballot go where there was a "shopping list" type of arithmetic done on the bottom. Several stacks of numbers added. He did not call it an id'ed ballot, and even if he did it, it would not have flown by the Board.

On a similar note, I saw two challenges from Cottage Grove P3 removed by Coleman. CGP3 was one of those random 107 precincts manually reviewed and recounted by teams of election judges prior to the recount. So that precinct already came to us sorted, and viewed by at least 3 judges. My counterpart STILL challenged 4 ballots in a row on me based on the marking method (checks and X's).

Sorry for another long-winded answer. (But you asked for it :)
~Latte

mediapost said...

@ecarlson and Green Lib,
I agree it is a messy issue but I still think it needs to be looked at. If Coleman wants to prove it he should take a few of the precincts where there is a large discrepancy, looks like Hennepin /Minneapolis W8 – P7 had a discrepancy of 11, and get the sign-in sheet counts, the machine counts and the hand recount numbers. If the sign-in sheets and the machine counts match or are very close, then it certainly seems more likely than not that there was a duplicate problem. That is why I think the sign-in sheet data would be helpful... I agree a resolution is extremely messy, but I don't see how they can ignore the problem. It is vital to the integrity of the election. It sounds like Franken has Coleman outchallenged on these so it may help him in the long run. Wouldn't that be a hoot? The absentees surprisingly put Coleman back on top but the dupes flip it right back to Franken!!

Statler N Waldorf said...

HUNGER STRIKE FOR FREEDOM

If you give a flying fuck about your fellow American citizens, and believe that ALL of us are created EQUAL, then join us.

green libertarian said...

I agree it is a messy issue but I still think it needs to be looked at. If Coleman wants to prove it he should take a few of the precincts where there is a large discrepancy, looks like Hennepin /Minneapolis W8 – P7 had a discrepancy of 11, and get the sign-in sheet counts, the machine counts and the hand recount numbers...

media post, if you look at that link I posted, I believe that's what Coleman's team has done. Went thru all the precincts, and identified where the numbers don't match up, indicating double counting. One precinct had a count of 26 votes over what could be verified as voting after usual corrections. I have no idea if his numbers are right, but that's what he's saying.

susan said...

Nate, you are going to be close, possibly exact, with the weeks ago prediction of 27 (was it?) win for Franken - what a coup!

On the Warren thing, if you use hate speech and bullying to make your point, it will create opposition. A lot of us who are not homophobic by any stretch of the imagination are getting sick of the single issue if we can't have our way we'll take you down with us stuff, and the in-your-face hate makes us not want to be around you.

Paul from Santa Fe said...

I'm posting this so late that probably nobody will read it, but maybe that's all to the good.

I hope that Statler and DCM and others, whose postings I respect very much, won't call me names, but I think PeixeGato is quite right. Obama has found a way to drive a wedge into the evangelical movement with the Warren invitation, as evidenced by the vitriolic denunciations of him by the even more Neanderthal elements of that movement. That wedge could pay significant dividends in both governing and campaigning in the future.

That said, I think the GLBT community is also quite right to raise holy hell about the invitation. By no means should you sit down and shut up; you should raise the political price for affronts to your dignity. That will give Obama valuable ammunition in future battles, like DADT, where he's likely to be championing your causes.

There's a story told about FDR. I don't know if it's true or not, but to me it illustrates the way a masterful politician thinks. A group visited him and made a case for their cause. At the end he said, "I absolutely agree with you. Now go out and bring some pressure on me to make it happen."

WV logglit; I guess that's the Yule log.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Susan,

If you're suggesting that I sit down and shut the fuck up, forget it. I don't give a shit if you're tired of hearing about it or not, but goddamn it, we ARE going to get our equality, whether you like it or not.

Another Mike said...

Excellent post Jason. If the radical left wants to whine and stomp their feet if Obama doesn't shun their political opponents, they'll find themselves outside the tent. It's obvious that the left has their haters and those who can be just as intorlerant as the nuttiest wingnuts.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Another Mike,

Is that like the Big Tent of Compassionate Conservativism the 'uniter not a divider' President Bush brought us?

You seem to forget who made Obama. The liberal left created this campaign, and if you fuck with us, we can destroy it too. Don't come back to the gay community looking for donations in 2010 if you don't deliver on your promises. I can donate to Republicans as easily as I can to Democrats, and if you want to see that 60 seat majority in 2010, you had better listen when we speak.

Another Mike said...

Compassionate conservatism and uniter not divider resonated with the electorate. It didn't work out too well however, because Bush didn't practice what he preached and always played to his base. Obama has also said he wants to be a uniter and president for all Americans. He wants to bridge the divide between red and blue. You just weren't listening during the campaign. Hopefully he won't make the same mistakes Bush made and always pander to his fringe. As to your threat of voting and donating to Republicans, I got a good chuckle out of that. Like you're voting for Palin, Huckabee or Romney in 2012!

Statler N Waldorf said...

AM,

Well you know, I don't let it bother me when the GOP trolls laugh at me, and I sure as shit don't give a damn that you laugh at me either. The proof's in the pudding, and I can make all kinds of threats over the internet about who I'll vote for or how much money I'll give to the opposition, and it doesn't mean anything. Just more internet drama.


If this translates into the real world, then it's something meaningful. I'm not going to take you or susan or the others seriously, because this is the internet, and only an idiot takes a forum troll seriously.

Instead, I'm going to let my actions do the talking. That's far less dramatic and far more effective.

Now, for those of you who are looking to do something real and step away from this internet bullshit, please join me and the others in the planned hunger strike. I'll just leave it as a friendly invite for those who'd care to join in.

If you don't, well, that's fine too. Maybe you can show up at our demonstrations and do a little counter-demonstration. It's freedom of speech, right? I may not care for your message, and maybe you don't care for mine, but we can both embrace the fact that we can make that message publicly known.

In the end, what really matters is what you do in the real world. Internet forums aren't real, so why get all bent out of shape over them?

DCM in FL said...

ANOTHER MIKE - you are an blithering idiot

Obama choosing Warren is NOT about UNITING anyone - that is moronic

It takes 2 sides to agree to meet in the middle - where is the common ground or the 'give; by Warren's ilk ?

nada & not goona happen in this presidency [unfortunately]

Susan - STFU. you are the HATER, as is Warren. Obama made a BAD decision & needs needs to pay the price for his truly offensive gesture [whether he intended it or not]

Has he apologized to ANYONE that he might have slighted ? NO ??? hhmmm, then he is not the man he claims to be

but he might redeem himself if the eyes of the offended & in a just god by making the proper ammends

however, NOTHING will change until the good fight is won

it will not be won by giving in to the bigots & prejudiced religious RIGHT haters

PAUL - your rational point is taken, and as a strategy it makes some weak sense for Obama to go that route [but in my opinion it is a losing prop]. Still, a wrong is a wrong & it must be not only pointed out but resisted.

Now IF Warren apopogized for his grevious transgressions during the invocation & pleaded for forgivenness, well then I would be the first to give props to Barack & respect to Warren afterwards.

In the meantime, MY inauguration deserves an invocation by a real christian like Bishop Chane of DC, not an intolerant lying hater like Warren.

Geez, I was in the big March on Washington back in '93 fighting for rights & dignity...so don't go trying to tell us that we are asking for too much too soon & just be patient !!!

Warren is the same age as I am - such a hypocrite & hater as he tries to influence another generation to believe his unchristian bigotry.

He does NOT deserve the honor - no way, no how. Count me OUT

ph-unbalanced said...

I go a couple of different ways on the Rick Warren thing.

On the one hand, as a trans-lesbian, it's a slap in the face. But just a small slap. I'm afraid in the final analysis it just bother me that much. I can accept that there might be some good reasons to have invited him to do this, and I'm willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, because there aren't any policy implications to it.

But you better believe I'll be watching, and I won't be nearly as willing to cut him slack the next time.

On the other hand, I'm really glad that the LGBT community is raising holy hell about it. The administration needs to know that it can't take our support for granted.

DCM in FL said...

as we used to chant during demos back in the 80 & 90's against both Reagan & LAPD brutality & discrimination toward LGBT...

"the whole world is watching"

same for the inauguration - the WORLD will be watching, and he chooses to open the event with RICK WARREN ???

just because he sells books does not make him deserving of speaking the 'word of god' on such an auspicious day.

UGH !!!

speak truth to power - this is a fraud & I will not hold my nose & just let it slide by again & again... ad nauseum indeed

DCM in FL said...

Re: Warren

OK, all you rationalizers supporting this noxious choice...

you say we should hold our complaints & noses for the common good because Warren ismn't all that bad...

[he is btw]

still, where would YOU draw the line ???

Hagee ? very little difference, but the catholics would go ballistic [I was raised catholic...]

Osteen ? Robertson ? Haggard fer crissakes ?

there are so many decent christians as well as jews & muslims [now that would be a bold choice] that could give an invocation less offensive than Warren

why not an army chaplain ??? that would be symbolic - but Warren is reveling in his spotlight [as he did on Dateline & Larry King] which allows him to spout his bigotry & hate to a wider audience due to this platform bestowed upon him FOR NO LEGITIMATE DESERVED REASON by Obama

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

there will be hell to pay and accounts to settle now or in the future

Statler N Waldorf said...

Well, you know, I've still got some of that Freshman 15 to drop, so in a way this hunger strike will serve a dual purpose.

You know, it's not the rocks my enemies throw at me that bother me. It's the ones my friends throw at me that are upsetting. I fully expect the GOP to attack GLBT people. That's in their program, and they don't try to hide anything or pretend any different. It is what it is, and you can see just by looking at it where you stand.

There's this old story folks around here tell you when you're young. It kinda goes like this:

There's this scorpion on a riverbank trying to find a way to cross. It's can't swim, and it sees this frog in the river and calls over to it. The frog listens to the scorpion's request, and then says, "Yeah, but if I give you a ride, you'll just sting me". Scorp replies, "If I do that, we both drown." Frog decides that makes sense, and tells the scorpion to climb aboard. halfway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog. They're both drowning when the frog asks WTF did you do that for? The Scorpion says, "Look, that's my nature."

Moral of the story being that you shouldn't get angry at someone for doing what's in their nature. You see a poisonous person, you avoid them, but if you're stupid enough to fall for their BS, don't get upset when they spring the trap.

Now, the question is, is Obama a scorpion, and did I get played for all that money and time I invested in his campaign? If I did, I'm not going to get stung again.

I intend to protest against Rick Warren. I'll protest against other betrayals as well, to remind Obama that I'm keeping a tally. I will hold the man accountable.

Besides, this gicves me an excuse to not have to sit through another year of my sister's cooking. I love her dearly, and she is a woman of incredible talents. Sadly, cooking isn't one of them, and every holiday season I have to remind myself how much I love her with every bite. This year maybe, I get a little break, so I can be grateful for the timing of this whole affair.

DCM in FL said...

STATLER

you are correct. we must all pick or fights - and it is imperative that we NOT allow anyone to trade our rights as a bargaining chip.

who says Obama will go to the mat to end DADT ? now it looks more likely he will trade that for something else of perceived political value UNLESS we just say NO, NO, NO !!!

same for healthcare & a whole host of other civil rights issues

I agree, it is easier to know your enemy than to allow yourself to be taken in by a 'friend' who is not a real friend

I just emailed my new congresswoman Kosmas - she beat the evil Tom Feeney here in FL] & put her on the spot.

does she support Warren ? If not, she better let Obama know that it is short-sighted cuz she will lose my vote in 2 years otherwise...

we do not have to vote for a right-wing GOP - all we have to do is sit out any election & the coalition crumbles.

FL would not have been won for Obama without the strong LGBT support - and that would translate across numerous districts & states as a tipping point when we bring our real friends & allies with us to vote for the Lizard People...

Statler N Waldorf said...

Hmm.. If we were to take the donation money we ordinarily would send to Democrats, and funnel all of it into some third party candidate, we could create a new Ralph Nader situation, ala 2000. Now, technically, we would not be supporting a GOP candidate - but we can support the spoiler. Especially if that spoiler makes GLBT rights a platform plank. When the Dems wonder where all the votes went, all they have to do is look at who supported that spoiler that used to support them, and they'll get the picture real quick.

DC, let's go find us some Lizard People. 1) we pour our money into the GLBT Victory Fund.. what better way to send a message than if we can run some GLBT Senate candidates with the money that would have otherwise gone to the Democrat? If we can't find a GLBT Senate candidate, then we find us a Ralph Nader-type and dump the money on him.


Either way, we get the message across

Bob X said...

@Jason: "I am furious at the way the gay community calls anyone who says marriage should be between one man and one woman "religious haters." "
There are plenty of marriage opponents who are not as foul as Warren. We call him a "hater" because he calls us child molesters and advocates that we be neutered.

I have had Christians try to kill me, twice. The one who had me at gunpoint was screaming that I had better stay away from his kids: he had learned I was gay, so he leapt to assuming I was a child molester, the precise kind of incitement that Warren peddles. The ones who left me on the railroad tracks were apparently followers of Dobson, who is a little less extreme than Warren: he advocates therapy to "turn us straight" while Warren advocates theraphy to obliterate our sex drive altogether.

Obama is signalling that the "politics of vilification", which we thought he was going to try to end, will continue to be perfectly acceptable, as long as the vilification is directed against us. He thinks such questions as whether I molest children or ought to be neuterered are just minor issues on which people can have slight "disagreements".

@Opus: if indeed it is "six months" before Obama touches any gay issues, and then only the most minor one, DADT (yes, it's symbolic but doesn't affect nearly as many people as DOMA or ENDA), then indeed he will have signalled to the right that he doesn't give a damn whether it goes through or not, that it's just a token effort so he can say "I tried".
I hope I'm wrong about Obama's betrayal, but he's not saying or doing anything to reassure me.

DCM in FL said...

STATLER

that is the plan, but it does not need to be a LGBT candidate - I am not a one issue voter...

Warren is extremely offensive to the anti-abortion, stem cell, peace not war, and numerous other constituencies...

That bloc as well as jews & muslims & other religions that Warren claims are 'abominations before gawd' should support any candidate who is open to equality for ALL + civil liberties.

All we should ask is that our candidate promise never to trade off our rights for political gamesmanship & not speak with a forked tongue or pander to the 'enemy'

BTW - some of the old liberal GOP senators & congressmen back in the day were actually decent types.

a DEM tag alone is no guarantee of authenticity

Bill & Hill were actually better 'friends' of the LGBT community than Obama probably ever will be unfortunately - but Bill over-reached & then tried to appease which sealed his fate IMHO

DCM in FL said...

BOB

thanks for your personal story & insightful comments

this IS a BIG DEAL because it directly effects our LIVES & liberties & denies us our equal rights

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

DUMP WARREN !!!

Statler N Waldorf said...

Did Jason actually suggest that Sherman was subtle? Sherman burned a path from Atlanta to the ocean. That's not what I call subtlety.

Further, I'd like to remind Jason of another general. Patton. Right after WW2 ended, Patton decided to cut through the bullshit and suggest that we roll our tanks on into Moscow while we still could. Had we, the Cold War would never have happened, and the Iron Curtain would not have sealed the fate of Eastern Europe for 50 years.

At the time, the US was the only power left standing that had not been touched by the war (except for Pearl harbor). Russia was weakened by the War with Germany, so much so that it did not declare war on Japan until a few days before we exploded the atomic bombs. Some say that we dropped those bombs not so much to avoid invading Japan, but moreso to send a signal to Stalin.

But that opportunity was lost forever the day the USSR field tested it's own atomic weapons.

He who hesitates is lost.

mediapost said...

@Green Lib,

It looks to me like Coleman's doc lists the Election Night Total Votes Cast (which I assume to be the machine count) but doesn't list the sign-in sheet totals. All I'm saying is that they should get one extra data point (the sign-in sheets) and that should tell us a lot about whether or not these challenges have merit. In the same way that the sign-in sheets made it clear that 133 ballots were missing.

green libertarian said...

Point taken, media post. I thought that Coleman's team was reflecting that (sign-ins etc.) in all that data, admit I'm hardly skilled in evaluating such.
--------------

I am for gay marriage, the end of DOMA, and instituting ENDA. The process of getting there is complicated, but we'll get there. If those of like mind don't destroy one another first, a far too common progressive reality.

Statler N Waldorf said...

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

Opus 132 said...

I am for gay marriage, the end of DOMA, and instituting ENDA. The process of getting there is complicated, but we'll get there. If those of like mind don't destroy one another first, a far too common progressive reality.

AMEN.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Every social movement in the United States has followed the same bizarre pattern.

From the Revolutionary War soldeirs who got screwed out of their pay, to the slaves, the Native Americans, women, the Jews, the Civil Rights Movement, the migrant farm workers, the Hispanics, the Catholics, the GLBT community.....


in every case, there has been severe injustice, beatings, murders,unthinkable atrocities. The group in question has been relegated to second-class or non-citizen status, a serpeate and unequal system. When they rallied against such a thing as an affront to Democracy and the assertion that we are all created equal, they have universally been told by the progressives that they have to stay in their place and go slow. They're told to shut up and be satisfied, because the Progressives are just too busy to talk right now, and they'll just have to wait and wait and wait. Black people had to wait 500 years before they got tired of waiting and decided they weren't going to wait any longer. Women had to wait since before recorded history. And GLBT people have had to wait ever since the middle ages, when Christianity first began to make an issue of homosexuality.

You know, I just don't know why you people keep insisting that folks should have to wait to become equal citizens in this country. It never works. You always try to just leave them out int he cold and forget about them, and they always lose patience with your lazy asses and decide to do it for themselves. And next thing you know, you're desperately trying to court their vote and support, claiming that Progressives were right their with them all along when you never were.

Don't you idiots ever learn anything from history? We're going to win. We always do, and you always have to deal with the whole shame and guilt complex that comes from having failed to do the right thing when you had the chance. Why not just do what you know is just now when you have the chance?

No, fuck you, we've waited long enough,a nd I'm not waiting any longer. You can join us and do the right thing or at least get the fuck out of our way, but don't make me run your ass over.

jqb said...

Bill & Hill were actually better 'friends' of the LGBT community

DOMA? Don't ask don't tell?

than Obama probably ever will be unfortunately

You're very very wrong, fortunately. People are talking about Warren as if Obama shares his views and as if he will make policy, neither of which is remotely true.

jqb said...

they have universally been told by the progressives that they have to stay in their place and go slow

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

jqb said...

I can donate to Republicans as easily as I can to Democrats

Sure, you can demonstrate that you're a cretin if you want to.

jqb said...

There's a story told about FDR. I don't know if it's true or not, but to me it illustrates the way a masterful politician thinks. A group visited him and made a case for their cause. At the end he said, "I absolutely agree with you. Now go out and bring some pressure on me to make it happen."

It's true and Obama quotes it. And FDR wasn't so wordy; he said "Make me do it!"

jqb said...

Susan - STFU. you are the HATER

You're a sick fuck, DCM.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I think I do. The Civil War was fought by Progressives, back when the Democrats were the party trying to keep things as they were and the GOP was the new upstarts. Somewhere alongt he way, they switched.

So I can't say it was the GOP or the Democrats, because if we're taking the long view of history, it's really about stasis vs transformation more than parties. Alot of this shit predates the parties currently extant. Those Revolutionary War vets had to fight their struggle before there even were Democrats or Republicans. And the Native Americans had to start fighting theirs starting in 1492, long before there was even an America or even colonies for that matter.

So I use the term progressive to refer to the people who favor transformation toward a more liberal society based on egalitarianism and meritocracy rather than cleaving to the old order just because it's old. At points in tiem, those folks have been GOP (Teddy Roosevelt, Lincoln) at others, Democrat (FDR, JFK, LBJ) at other times they were sympathetic to the suffragettes and abolitionists, but too afraid of being seen as radical, so they just sort of told these folks to slow down and be patient for things to change.

Which is to say, they were progressive, but not radical. Hence the term Progressive.

Statler N Waldorf said...

jqb, you're turning into a forum troll. You hurl insults randomly without making any kind of a point.

Don't feed the trolls, folks. Ignore his ass to death if he keeps it up

jqb said...

I am furious at the way the gay community calls anyone who says marriage should be between one man and one woman "religious haters."

You left out the word "only" , asshole. It is because you jackasses deny people who love each other the right to marry that you are scum.

jqb said...

jqb, you're turning into a forum troll. You hurl insults randomly without making any kind of a point.

Don't feed the trolls, folks. Ignore his ass to death if he keeps it up


Quite a lil Hitler, aren't you?

Nighty night.

Sam Thornton said...

Regardless of whether one is repelled or attracted by the Obama selection of Warren for the invocation, it's undeniable that the selection has exposed Warren and his ideas to an enormous amount of public scrutiny, debate, and criticism.

Remains to be seen whether shining the light of day on Warren's ideas will work out to his credit or loss, but it will be interesting to see how that works out.

green libertarian said...

Don't you idiots ever learn anything from history? We're going to win. We always do, and you always have to deal with the whole shame and guilt complex that comes from having failed to do the right thing when you had the chance. Why not just do what you know is just now when you have the chance?

No shame or guilt here, as I've worked for the rights of the GLBTQ community for a long time. Major progress has been made. Lots more to do.

Like the circular firing squad, do ya?

green libertarian said...

Sam Thornton said...

Regardless of whether one is repelled or attracted by the Obama selection of Warren for the invocation, it's undeniable that the selection has exposed Warren and his ideas to an enormous amount of public scrutiny, debate, and criticism.


Excellent point.

In my case, I've had a major re-evaluation of Warren. Looked at from afar, as fundies go, he seemed to be somewhat enlightened, and he did raise a lot of money for AIDS related causes.

Looked at deeper, as I now see, he's rather a hypocrite. With a huge following. That can be exploited for our purposes.

Statler N Waldorf said...

A Faustian bargain if I ever heard of one. Especially since you're so quick to sell me and other GLBT people out for whatever influence Warren can give you.

Hope it's worth what you're paying for it.

just_looking said...

I came here to learn more about duplicate votes and instead found that Obama maybe an unlabeled duplicate of Warren?

To the few still following the Franken/Coleman thang, why should we assume the mistake was the duplicate was unlabeled, rather than the duplicate was never made in the first place? mediapost's suggestion to look at the sign-ins could help to tell the difference.

Does anybody have a handle on how many unmatched-original Coleman votes Franken can successfully challenege? Is there any reason to believe that one candidate or the other would be helped if unmatched-duplicate challenges were brought back in?

mediapost said...

Does anyone know this?... Is the process for creating a duplicate ballot to photocopy the original or is the duplicate created manually? If the later is true then it seems pretty tough to tie an unmarked dupe to back its original.

MNLatteLiberal said...

@mediapost,
afaik but i am pretty sure that's how it's done, all the duplicates are made by hand by the precinct election judges. As most of the originals requiring the duplicates are the wrong format (hence the reason for the dupe to begin with), xeroxing them would do little good.

Furthermore, the ballots are made of heavier stock paper, almost like thin cardboard, and are of rather odd format, which made scanning them in quite a challenge, apparently (see Brooklyn Park ballots, for instance).

Hence, if the duplicate is truly unmarked, you cannot find it. As I wrote before, even when they are marked, locating them all in the stacks of 2000+ ballots could be a real challenge.

There is no remedy for what Coleman is seeking, period. There is no remedy MNSC is going to grant him.

~ Latte

FWIW, imho the selection of Warren is overreaching on Obama's part. He is trying to appease those who do not want to be appeased. He has the mandate already, and he will never get the [near]unanimous consensus he is appearing to seek for whatever reason. The UNITED States of America vs Red States/Blue States makes for a nice soundbite, but it is pretty naive to think you are going to get all the reds to play with the blues to make nice uniform shades of purple. What you get is a mess.

Time for Obama to grab the wheel. The wheel of history. The legacy is waiting.

just_looking said...

Of course the duplicates are manually created. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a controversy.

I re-read the email exchange that Nate and Franken claim show Coleman is being inconsistent. The email gave the following instructions from the State:

a) if there no duplicates found, don't open the originals. Do not count them.

b) if at least one duplicate is found, separate them from the votes to be recounted. Do not count them.

c) if at least one duplicate is found, open the originals and count them.

d) you may (but are not required to) check to see if the number of orignals are significantly different than the number of duplicates.

e) if you did step "d" and the numbers significantly differ, the candidates should agree on whether to count the originals or duplicates. One of the groups, but only of them, must be counted.

f) if the candidates cannot agree in step "e", count the originals.

Franken contends that the campaigns agreed originals would be counted except where a duplicate exists which could not be matched to an original. In that exception case, the duplicate would be counted.

Coleman contends no such agreement was in place, but rather duplicates should be counted, not originals. Thus, they claim they are consistent (Nate and Franken are wrong) in admonishing Franken for challenging duplicates (which he did prior to State's instructions) while at the same time it is ok for Coleman to challenge originals.

If the courts accept the State's instructions as determinative, Coleman is going to lose. It is clear the two sides haven't reached an agreement, and "f" kicks in - count the originals and only the originals. The only Coleman challenges that would be accepted are in precincts where there are no duplicates at all ("a" applies).

On the other hand, Franken's understanding of the agreement, which calls for mostly originals but some duplicates at the same time, is proscribed by the State's instructions.

An acceptance by the courts of the State's instructions, and concordant rejection of Coleman's challenges to originals, opens up another Coleman challenge to the counted duplicates.

Or, maybe the courts will rule the State's instructions were wrong on the merits?

DCM in FL said...

Latte said:

"FWIW, imho the selection of Warren is overreaching on Obama's part. He is trying to appease those who do not want to be appeased."

Thanks & AMEN - well said and oh so true. WHY does he 'owe' it to Warren to be the only pastor to give the invocation ? Because he spoke once at Saddleback ? THAT compares an apple to a shipping container full of oranges...

Let Warren meet him in the WH & lead a prayer breakfast - no problem. BUT we are talking about the symbolism of CHOOSING Warren over ALL OTHERS for a historic privelege.

In effect, Obama elevates Warren to the status of a Billy Graham - and Warren is proving to be even more combative by campaigning for the invocation as he did again in Long Beach this weekend spewing more hate & bigotry...
--------------------------------

JQB - what a noxious little troll you are with your lamebrained scattershots disses. try facts or reason to back up your worthless posts... didn't think so

pitiful & pathetic like Jack & Pete & Mulehead...

why so bitter ??? think it is clear...

DCM in FL said...

btw - Bill & Hill BOTH have long records of at least TRYING to do the right thing in support of many LGBT issues & in appointing openly gay persons to important posts...

where is the action by Obama ? oh, he did have ONE open gay on his huge campaign support staff but in lower profile/quiet role...

appointments to date ? [crickets chirp here]

Bill tried to open the military, which he will forever get credit for - but Colin Powell & the GOPers killed it & they forced DADT as well as DOMA & the POTUS had to go along...

we understand political realities & compromises - but Obama has started that with our rights even BEFORE he takes office with a mandate & a huge potential edge in congress

I still stand with Bill & Hill as stronger supporters of LGBT, as well as great friends of AA despite the campaign distortions.

BUT I believed that Obama had a better chance to advance EVERYONE's interests, so I supported Barack for the generaql good of the country - however that does not mean we will now just roll over & be further abused or ignored !

WV - hangeOJ [what the LV jury wanted to do to him...]

ecarlson said...

So I'm confused about what to make of the duplicate ballot issue.

You can find here and here
a list of ballots challenged by Coleman. My impression is that these summaries come from Coleman, but there's no reason to suspect them.

Assuming they are accurate, here's the totals I estimate:

Almost all, say, 123 of them, are originals with no matching duplicates. Another 8 or so were duplicates with no originals. Another 3 I was unable to determine.

Now, think about what sort of mistakes are likely. A bad ballot comes in, you copy it and shove the duplicated in the machine. Then you mark the original, and then mark the duplicate, oh s**t, you already fed it into the machine. This seems a logical error. I therefore suspect that in most cases where there is an original but no duplicate, counting the original is equivalent to double counting. Furthermore, the duplicate can probably never be matched to the original, since there's nothing distinguishing it from any regular vote (except, perhaps, that the vote is identical to one of the originals). As for the duplicates with no originals, these very few cases (which happened only in two precincts or so) can be gone through by hand to look for any originals (where they missed the marking, or where there's a mangled ballot that matches the unmatched duplicate). This will give us a good idea of what fraction of these eight or so should be counted (if you can't find a match, count them!).

I also want to note that in nearly all cases, the number of unmatched originals matched almost exactly the amount the hand count exceeded the original tally, also suggesting a double count.

As for the last three or so, someone needs to look at them and figure out what happened. That should clarify things.

I don't know what the SCoMN will decide, but it seems Coleman has a very strong argument that there was double counting. This would shift things towards Coleman by +130 or so.

If my reasoning is correct, then Coleman is "ahead", but it is premature to conclude anything because:

(a) The SCoMN may see things differently than me,
(b) I've heard reps of Franken say they have similar ballots (why weren't they challenged?)
(c) We still have the improperly rejected ballots to consider.

WV - submire - The level this recounting drops to when it is worse than just mired.

MNLatteLiberal said...

@ecarlson,
I find myself disagreeing with you, which does not happen often. If you look
here , I summarized Elias's arguments as to why there was no overcounting in Dakota/Eagan/P3 that Trimble cited, and as to why there are originals with no duplicates located during the recount.

Often times the recount turned up ballots that were not registered optically during the machine scan. We've all seen examples of that. In every county there are at least a few ballots like that. It cannot, therefore, be argued that the presence of additional votes turned up during the recount is due to the duplicates and originals both being counted to give double counting.

Furthermore, how do you propose to deal with the fact that Franken campaign WAS NOT ALLOWED to launch those types of "missing duplicate" challenges in three counties PER ORDER OF THE REP OF THE SoS Office? How do you retrieve those? Franken was not even allowed to record how many instances of that took place in three counties.

IMHO, for the SC to act, Coleman MUST PROVE double counting. The burden of proof is on him. And thus far, every one of his arguments to that effect has been met and debunked by Elias and Team Franken.

Sorry to sound partisan here, but I have not seen any rationalization as to how to proceed in light of the issues that the Franken folks have brought up.

~ Latte

just_looking said...

@ecarlson

(the number of umatched originals) equal to (the number of hand-count votes minus the number of machine count votes) does not necessarily imply the duplicates were mistakenly unlabeled. It could be the duplicates were never created.

Since Franken was precluded from challenging unmatched originals in some cases, if Coleman prevails on these challenges, Franken has a good argument to re-open all duplicates.

@Latte

As explained above, the email exchange supports Franken's assertions that it was the State which required that unmatched originals pass unchallenged. However, the claim that Trimble's email shows he is inconsistent is not correct.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I am only posting this because it was at 199 posts, and I wanted to make it an even 200