12.03.2008

Did Mel Martinez Just Do the GOP a Favor?

Florida Senator Mel Martinez, a top potential target for Democrats in 2010, announced yesterday that he will not seek a second term. Florida thus joins Delaware and Kansas -- where Sam Brownback is also expected to retire, possibly in preparation for a gubernatorial run -- as probable open-seat races in the 2010 cycle.

Wise observers like Tom Jensen of Public Policy Polling are already concluding that this is in fact good news for the GOP. Martinez' approval ratings are marginal; a Quinnipiac poll last month pegged his numbers at 42% approve and 33% disapprove, and a Strategic Vision poll was broadly similar -- 47% approve, 41% disapprove. Public Policy Polling, whose approval ratings can be idiosyncratic, had more pessimistic numbers: 23% approve, 37% disapprove. On average, that works out to 37% approve, 37% disapprove, or almost exactly breakeven.

There are no hard and fast rules about this, because approval ratings depend heavily on question wording and are often not directly comparable to one another, but from having studied these numbers in the 2006 and 2008 cycles, the following general rules of thumb apply:

-- If the average of candidate's net approval ratings (his approval rating less his disapproval rating) is +20 or better, he is usually on track to win re-election in the absence of significant game-altering events. Caveat: significant game-altering events occur more often that you might think for US Senators, especially two years out from an election. Probability of retaining seat: 90-100%.

-- If the average of a candidate's net approval ratings are +10 to +20, it may be possible to defeat him with a superior campaign (Kay Hagan, 2008) and/or in a wave election (Democrats, 1994) without specific, game-altering events, although the odds are usually against it. Probability of retaining seat: 70-95%.

-- If the average of a candidate's net approval ratings are in the single digits -- +1 to +9 -- he is significantly vulnerable, and may be anywhere from a modest favorite to a slight underdog depending on the strength of the opposition. Probability of retaining seat: 45-75%.

-- If the average of a candidate's approval ratings are even or negative, he is usually no better than a toss-up against well-organized opposition, and often somewhat worse. Probability of retaining seat: 25-50%.

Martinez' numbers had placed him right on the brink of the third and the fourth categories, implying that he was about even-money to retain his seat. Can his potential Republican replacements do better than that?

It depends, of course, on just who those replacements are. Generally, one of the big advantages that incumbents have -- even relatively unpopular ones -- is that they have an easy time raising funds; pretty much every incumbent senator running for re-election in 2008 had at least $5 million in his pocket, with the exception of a couple in non-competitive races in small states. New candidates rarely have access to that kind of capital.

...unless, of course, they are brand names like Jeb Bush, who is reportedly contemplating a run for Martinez' seat. Bush left office in 2006 with approval ratings in the +20 range; they may have diminished slightly since then as a result of Bush Fatigue, but Floridians have little problem distinguishing Jeb from George W., even if that's less true of the rest of the country. Bush, should he choose to run, will have most of the advantages that an incumbent usually has: capital, name recognition, organization, enough stature to deter primary challengers.

That is not to suggest that Bush would have a cakewalk into the Senate. He has his own baggage, and would be a fundraising magnet for Democrats. The most expensive senate race in 2006 was Hillary Clinton's in New York, which brought in a collective total of about $40 million, and the most expensive in 2008 was Norm Coleman's in Minnesota, which brought in a collective total of $35 million. Bush vs X. might be somewhere in that territory or even higher -- perhaps as high as $50 million -- and would almost certainly set the record for an open seat race.

Nevertheless, I think Martinez probably did do the Republicans a favor if their candidate winds up being Bush -- or Charlie Crist, who like Bush could run with most of the advantages of an incumbent. If it is anyone other than those two specifically, on the other hand, the fundraising and organizational strength is a lot to give up. Moreover, the presence of an open seat may be more attractive to prospective Democratic challengers. Florida CFO Alex Sink, who was reportedly about to pull out of a prospective senate run in 2010, is now reconsidering, according to Marc Ambinder. It is hard to imagine a Robert Wexler not thinking long and hard about wanting to stick it to Bush.

The most cautious way to put it is this: Florida was one of the top two senate races in the country before Martinez' announcement, and although the parameters now look a little different, it remains one of the top two now.

76 comments

michiganmaine said...

Franken Camp's Claim: We're Now Ahead!

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12
/franken_camps_claim_were_now_a.php

22 votes according to the Franken camp.

Jolly said...

Don't you mean Norm Coleman's race in MINNESOTA?

While it may be bizarre, considering ole Norm is actually from New York, he ran in Minnesota.

Sedi said...

I'm curious as to how conservative Jeb Bush really is. I know that he's quite a bit sharper than his brother -- though that isn't saying too much -- but is he more like George H.W.?

Evan said...

Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL) could also make a good run for the seat, if she chose to leave the House.

Juris said...

Of course the main implication of Jeb's interest in the Senate is that he wants to put himself in play for a run for the presidency: Bush III.

If he were viable on that scale -- and somehow divorces himself from the Bush II legacy by staying miles away from the McCain team as well as the Bush legacies -- then he represents perhaps somebody with much wider appeal than most of the other "contenders."

wv: ganndi (I wouldn't hang mahatma on that)

Lawchamp said...

Jeb = Michael Corleone

W = Fredo

KB said...

Evan,

DWS is a joke. I know Clinton fans love her but she would get killed by Bush or Crist. She has such a negative reputation as a whiner that she would not even get out of a tough primary never mind winning the general. I know everyone mentions Sink but what is a state CFO? Who really votes for that position? I think Wexler would be the best candidate, being an incumbent since 1996, and being a netroots favorite. He has money and comes from the Miami area. Can he win the I-4? Maybe not as well as Sink but Wexler would tie Bush to his brother and win. Klein also is mentioned with him money and ties to the Jewish community. But he won in 2006. He's been a US rep for 2 years, thats it! Can he really beat Bush?

Howard said...

Wow, HRC sure wasted a ton of money in 2006 against a token opponent. Shades of mismanagement to come, eh?

homunq said...

Franken camp: We're now ahead!

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/franken_camps_claim_were_now_a.php

homunq said...

oops sorry, michiganmaine beat me to it. All those "first"s had me skipping the first comment - how refreshing to have an actually useful first.

Juris said...

Waita minute. Franken withdraws more than 600 challenges, and so watch Coleman start to claim he's ahead by 800 votes in the recount.

And so will go the media battle, divorced from the reality of the recount outcome.

homunq said...

Jolly: I think Nate mean's AL FRANKEN's in Minnesota, given that he now leads.

Juris: Actually, withdrawing the 600 challenges right now was a very smart move. It knocks apart the rationale for the official numbers, just when he has some very compelling numbers of his own. Unless Coleman responds by quickly (today) withdrawing at least 500 challenges of his own, I think that the media narrative will start to mention the Franken numbers first, though they will still give the 800 number.

Kennyb said...

On Minnesota, does anyone know what the standard is for the state canvassing board when evaluating a local official's initial decision on a disputed ballot? Is it a de novo review or is the local official given some discretion? Hard to say who this might favor, but it would impact the Franken team's assumption that almost all ballot challanges will be denied. I looked at some of the sample challanges and although the vast majority are pretty clear, there are a few (perhaps enough to make the difference, although they may cancel each other out) that are true toss-ups.

homunq said...

jdizzle and others: please do not feed the troll. If we can get through about 3 threads without addressing it (and thus giving it a reason to respond) it will starve and die.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Jeb Bush blocked Clinton's plans to expand offshore drilling in FL...go figure.

homunq said...

Kennyb: it is de novo; the standard is voter intention, not any prior judgement. However, they do get each candidate's challenges in separate piles, so it will be hard not to get in a rhythm of rejecting and not wake up for a few of the real tossups. As for the tossups, the point is that they should cancel out. If there are no more than 400 tossups, the standard deviation they cause is 20 votes, so Franken would still have a 83% chance or so right now (if nothing else happens - which is unrealistic).

jjray said...

Perhaps Martinez did not so much "do the GOP a favor" as he was arm twisted out the door by Bush surrogates. The Bush party within a party has immense power. I am sure Mel was told he'd be taken care of if he left quietly.

aristotle's butler said...

"I'm curious as to how conservative Jeb Bush really is"

He was a signatory of PNAC's Statement of Principles, if that helps...

ssmith said...

Imagine Norm Coleman spending all that $35 million just to get pipped by Franken in the recount by 27 votes. Delicious.

Ed in NJ said...

Mule Rider said...

- or until Nate gives me the respect I'm due


He already has Wally, you are just too stupid to realize it.

homunq said...

Ed in NJ:

"Hilarious" is a clear sign of starvation from a troll. If we can resist the temptation, it will be dead by tomorrow.

homunq said...

ssmith: Nate didn't say that Coleman spent $35M, just that the race collectively had cost that. Unfortunately, it looks as if Franken's margin will be more than one vote per million dollars he spent - that would have been a great factoid.

walt526 said...

Perhaps Martinez did not so much "do the GOP a favor" as he was arm twisted out the door by Bush surrogates. The Bush party within a party has immense power. I am sure Mel was told he'd be taken care of if he left quietly.

Bingo. Also, there's a rumor that Martinez is hurting from the market correction and wants to get back into the private sector to replenish his coffers.

How did Bush do among Hispanic voters when he ran as governor? That would seem to be key demographic to winning that senate seat. Do the Democrats have a viable Latino to run against him?

joel said...

No question Martinez was forced out to make way for Bush. I still don`t think the country will vote another Bush president for a generation but he could have a senate seat for a long time.
Palin is the face of the GOP for now, to our benefit. No big name will challenge Obama in 2012 unless some calamity happens, I believe he will be pretty popular and the GOP will nominate Palin and Obama will totally humiliate her in the election.
Can you see him debate her, that would be hilarious, she would come off as a high school student trying to debate a college professor.

Andy said...

Go Debbie (Wasserman-Schultz)! She's got a moderate reputation (which is huge in that state), is a tireless campaigner, is Jewish (which never hurts in FL) and most important is absolutely LOADED. She could self-fund to the tune of several million, maybe more.

Bob X said...

Pragmatus said (last time the troll was here) "...The worst problem is the trolls, the second worst problem are those posters who argue with the trolls, and third worst are those people who think they can reason with and reform trolls. Lastly, and still bad, are those posters who implore everyone to just ignore the troll."
But you forgot: the posters who argue with people who implore everyone to ignore the troll!
Frankly, I don't think it makes any difference whether anyone "responds" to pseudo-Mule (he doesn't really give any substance to respond to lately).

detor: trolls hijacking the thread can take us on a long detor.

jdizzle said...
This post has been removed by the author.
RufusRules said...

I am all for free speech, but jeebus, could you guys take it down a notch with the hypervulgarity? Some of us are accessing this site from work and my IT department is about to block it for setting off their filthmeter. Seriously, please.

homunq said...

Hitler. (jdizzle, that one goes out to you... really I appreciate it, but I could stand up for myself if there were the slightest need.)

Kid G said...

Here's a random hypothetical question:

If another event like 9/11 happened and Obama responded in a responsible manner, how high would his job approval rating go? Bush's went to 90% in the 9/11 aftermath.

I ask this because I think there are enough racist ideologues in this country that Obama could never break 75% approval.

David said...

I do not think Obama could ever reach a 90% approval rating, not because of racism, but because Bush used fear to pump up his support.

Like the red scare, people bought that "you are with us or with the terrorists" bullshit for a few years.

If Obama can right the economy without rewarded the people who destroyed it, create incentives for job creation, deliver on health care, reverse the totalitarian policies enacted by Bush, and restore our image in the world, then his approval ratings will never drop under 60% and that is more than enough for reelection and maintaining a mandate.

Hell, even if he only partly delivers on those he will be guaranteed high approval ratings. Bush set the bar remarkably low.

livemild said...

does anyone believe franken when he says that they are up 22?
i'd like to but doubt anyone even both campaigns know what is going on on the ground these days.

dont worry about that idiot who rides asses for want of something intelligent to do. it wont be long before nate goes to a moderated stance and that worthless windbag disappears in the night and leaves the rest of us in peace.

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Blame said...

Obams is certainly starting well. Chances are he will spend the first 2 years on damage control. I doubt things will be better in 2 years but that won't be for lack of trying, or compitance, and the public will recognise it.

Also don't forget that Obama is backing McCain's battle against pork. Could be that fiscal conservative will find Obama a better friend than Bush.

If so, Matinez got out while the going was good. 2010 will see a bloodbath for remaing GOP senate seats.

ficstoco - a style of interior decoration sadly overshadowed by the rococo style. Famed for its flying pottery ducks and fake brick wallpaper it was not so much anti-interlectual as just evidence that popular culture can be just plain thick.

Right Wing Conspiricist said...

Jeb Bush will win, and will run for President in 2012. And it will drive liberals nuts when he wins.

Bush/Palin '12!

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
livemild said...

supposedly 133 votes for franken have disappeared in minneapolis.

at least the GA runoff ended what might have been the mess that MN has become

Kid G said...

Wow, thanks to the mods for deleting the Mule Rider "conversation." I was about to buy a new deadbolt for my door.

livemild:

I believe the Franken campaign. The moment I heard that Coleman was challenging all McCain/Franken votes, I knew that he must be extremely insecure about the numbers coming in from the recount. From the beginning, Franken's camp has been very straightforward and confident in its communication in the recount, even when it was in excess of 200 votes behind. It's not like they all of a sudden said that they're ahead; the numbers have been narrowing steadily since the beginning.

jdizzle said...

Right Wing, are the Bushes the best the GOP has to offer? Are we gonna have to hear from the twins when they're old enough? Spare us another Bush please!

Right Wing Conspiricist said...

We're going to run him because it'd be fun to watch him win and hear the Dems whine about "BushCo" again!

EIGHT MORE YEARS!

I'll love the whining.

jdizzle said...

Well if you want to keep going for idiots, more power to you! They say the definition of insanity is not learning from one's mistakes. NO ONE will fall for that a third time.

C said...

at least the GA runoff ended what might have been the mess that MN has become

errrr. Your definition of mess is pretty curious. Minnesota is in the process of identifying and rectifying errors. Minnesota is fortunate to be in a position to do that--it has paper ballots.

No such luxury in Georgia. That's a mess ab initio...

bushworstever said...

Right Wing Dreamer:

We've had two Bushes, a mediocrity and a failure. The voters may be slow learners, but they're not idiotic enough to pick another Bush -- especially one who proved his gross stupidity in the Schiavo case.

And Palin is a know-nothing who continues to demonstrate why she's a national joke (i.e., Dan Quayle).

If either again appears on a national ticket, it'll be an easy Dem win.

PorridgeGun said...

If Jeb runs for the senate, Obama-Biden-Holder should immediately move on investigations on the Bush regime's criminal activities. Biden promised as much on the campaign trail.


Regardless, the Bush name is political poison nationally. FL/TX is about as much power and influence any Bush will get after 8 long years of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

Joseph O said...

Right: That's always a good criteria for choosing your candidates. Good luck with that.

Cugel said...

"Right Wing Conspiricist said...

We're going to run him because it'd be fun to watch him win and hear the Dems whine about "BushCo" again!

EIGHT MORE YEARS!

I'll love the whining."


This is a perfect example of why the Republican party has totally collapsed into a narrow regional Southern white person's party that just lost the last election by a huge margin and has a 34% approval rating in the rest of America.

I don't think there could be anything better for Democrats than the specter of ANOTHER GODDAM BUSH!

Within the narrowing circle-jerk of right-wing true believers, this is regarded as a hilarious joke: "we're really going to screw you all over again! Get used to it America! Bend over once again!"

But in the rest of the country, that 75% who HATE Bush and are simply waiting to forget and bury the entire Bush administration, this is not regarded as particularly amusing.

The Republican party didn't try and run Herbert Hoover again in 1936, but today's Republicans are deliberately obtuse.

They can't accept that everything to do with the name "Bush" is like a stinking rotting fish, shining and putrid that's just been dumped on your doorstep.

They are really into ramming their head into the stadium wall just to prove they're tough!

Until they learn that it's CONSERVATISM that failed and has been rejected, conservative POLICIES, conservative Reaganomics, right-wing Fundies imposing their fire and brimstone on the rest of us, they're not going to win another national election.

We just rejected and buried the war-mongers, and the hate-mongers, the racists, the free-market swindlers, and the whole nasty crew that's been running America into the ground since 1968.

So, by all means Republicans, keep chanting "Jeb Bush 2012!"

Bush/Palin would be even better!

Greg said...

I have to say that I'm with Right Wing on this one. I always vote for the person I think it would be most hilarious if they won.

bacci40 said...

hey nate....your buddy ziegler is at it again...he hired a new polling operation to go back out and ask his questions...this time to both mccain and obama voters...and guess what he found out? obama voters dont watch fox and mccain voters are almost just as clueless as obama voters...this time a question about the keating 5was added and most mccain voters didnt have a clue...yet ziegler is trying to use this poll to again show that mccain voters were more educated on the issues....can you do a piece on this next?? and can you interview the guy again? i wanna see his head explode

Right Wing Conspiricist said...

Jeb Bush left office with 65% approval ratings. I know its drives you libs nuts, but its true. He isn't identified with his brother in the minds of voters. American voters have short memories, anyway.

P.S. Google Bush 45.

Right Wing Conspiricist said...

Besides after four long years of Jimmy Carter--oops! I mean, Barack Obama, there will be Bush nostalgia.

Statler N Waldorf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
darkerstar1 said...

Wierdness in MN, 100+ votes just got killed but not yet reavealed who they were for, (in other words who lost more votes from this), but just thought the news would be of interest.

Mule Rider said...

...of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion. You may want to invest in a dictionary and learn the difference between the two. It might be a $12 investment at most.

Usually, when you hear (or use) words like "best" or "worst", something "subjective" is being discussed. At which case you know any conclusions made can only be considered opinion, not fact.

Now, when you hear superlatives like "most", "least", "all", "none", etc. or specific data points are used, THEN you can make an objective and informed assessment of the "facts" and state them as such.

Until then, get your definitions straight.

Mule Rider said...

...of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion. You may want to invest in a dictionary and learn the difference between the two. It might be a $12 investment at most.

Usually, when you hear (or use) words like "best" or "worst", something "subjective" is being discussed. At which case you know any conclusions made can only be considered opinion, not fact.

Now, when you hear superlatives like "most", "least", "all", "none", etc. or specific data points are used, THEN you can make an objective and informed assessment of the "facts" and state them as such.

Until then, get your definitions straight.

Mule Rider said...

...of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion. You may want to invest in a dictionary and learn the difference between the two. It might be a $12 investment at most.

Usually, when you hear (or use) words like "best" or "worst", something "subjective" is being discussed. At which case you know any conclusions made can only be considered opinion, not fact.

Now, when you hear superlatives like "most", "least", "all", "none", etc. or specific data points are used, THEN you can make an objective and informed assessment of the "facts" and state them as such.

Until then, get your definitions straight.

Mule Rider said...

...of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion. You may want to invest in a dictionary and learn the difference between the two. It might be a $12 investment at most.

Usually, when you hear (or use) words like "best" or "worst", something "subjective" is being discussed. At which case you know any conclusions made can only be considered opinion, not fact.

Now, when you hear superlatives like "most", "least", "all", "none", etc. or specific data points are used, THEN you can make an objective and informed assessment of the "facts" and state them as such.

Until then, get your definitions straight.

Mule Rider said...

...of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion. You may want to invest in a dictionary and learn the difference between the two. It might be a $12 investment at most.

Usually, when you hear (or use) words like "best" or "worst", something "subjective" is being discussed. At which case you know any conclusions made can only be considered opinion, not fact.

Now, when you hear superlatives like "most", "least", "all", "none", etc. or specific data points are used, THEN you can make an objective and informed assessment of the "facts" and state them as such.

Until then, get your definitions straight.

Mule Rider said...

...of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion. You may want to invest in a dictionary and learn the difference between the two. It might be a $12 investment at most.

Usually, when you hear (or use) words like "best" or "worst", something "subjective" is being discussed. At which case you know any conclusions made can only be considered opinion, not fact.

Now, when you hear superlatives like "most", "least", "all", "none", etc. or specific data points are used, THEN you can make an objective and informed assessment of the "facts" and state them as such.

Until then, get your definitions straight.

Mule Rider said...

...of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion. You may want to invest in a dictionary and learn the difference between the two. It might be a $12 investment at most.

Usually, when you hear (or use) words like "best" or "worst", something "subjective" is being discussed. At which case you know any conclusions made can only be considered opinion, not fact.

Now, when you hear superlatives like "most", "least", "all", "none", etc. or specific data points are used, THEN you can make an objective and informed assessment of the "facts" and state them as such.

Until then, get your definitions straight.

homunq said...

Holy macaroni! You can't make this up! Franken is now down 36 (as far as we know) from his high of +22, leaving him somewhere around -14. It seems 133 ballots in Minneapolis were double-counted. (Although Franken is claiming that they were counted correctly and now "lost", that story seems pretty implausible.) So, as the recount finishes out, Franken may pick up a few more votes, and the race will end up in single figures.

That means a good 15% chance or so that it will be decided by 0 or 1 votes! Where is the Intrade on that one?

(of course, the absentees still have every chance to swing it to Franken. It's really looking good for him to win - which is why I can relish the extra excitement without too much guilt).

http://minnesotaindependent.com/19047/more-votes-missing-as-frankens-lead-slips-away

bobnsj said...

Walt 526

How did Bush do among Hispanic voters when he ran as governor? That would seem to be key demographic to winning that senate seat. Do the Democrats have a viable Latino to run against him?

Jeb Bush's wife is Hispanic and he converted to Catholicism. That may help him some.

andrew said...

Kathy Castor. "D" Congresswoman from Tampa.

Win the 1-4 corridor, win the state.


ps I am NOT looking forward to seeing Jeb Bush on the ballot here in 2 years. I feel dirty all over just thinking about it!

hill.tops said...

test

WVBlue said...

Nate -- Please clarify.

Is your analysis based only on Senate seats, or do you thinks these rules of thumb apply to all major elections (Pres., Gov., Sen/House)?

Thanks!

RedHawksO4 said...

This may help the GOP, this may hurt the GOP. More speculation. Seriously though, I think overall this helps the Dems. I seriously doubt Crist will run after only one term as governor. Bush may run, but I'd say it's still under 50/50. If he does run, it's probably an indication that he's wants to run for President in 2016. If neither of them run, it's pretty much a slam dunk for the Dems.

Lessons in History: Saudi- Pashganistan

nkpolitics1279 said...

Regarding the 2010 Florida US Senate race.

On the Democratic side Alex Sink is the 800lb Gorrilla. If Sink does not run.
The strong candidate will be Ron Klein.
Klien represents a bellwhether Congressional District in Southern Florida. He is the former Minority Leader of the Florida state senate and He unseated a long time GOP incumbent who was a member of the House Ways and Means Committee.

Cugel said...

Right Wing Conspiricist said...

Jeb Bush left office with 65% approval ratings. I know its drives you libs nuts, but its true. He isn't identified with his brother in the minds of voters. American voters have short memories, anyway.

P.S. Google Bush 45."


Yup! Keep drinking the cool-aid. In 4 years everybody will be longing to go back to the Bush era when everything was so very wonderful!

Just like after 4 years of Reagan everybody was desperate to elect someone associated with Jimmy Carter in 1984!

Oh, wait. . . .

PorridgeGun said...

Mule Rider said...

...of the worst pResidency in American history. That's a fact.

No, that's an opinion.



No, that's a fact. Bush has the lowest approval ratings of all-time. And compared to recent out-going presidents, Bush's numbers continue to drop. Gallup recently did a piece on president's popularity rising at the end of their time in office. That's not happening with Bush.


I'm willing to bet my bollcoks that if the public were polled on who the worst president of all-time is, Bush would be at the top of the list. Both liberals and independents hate Bush for pissing on the constitution and destroying the country. Conservatives hate Bush for destroying the party.

kitkatcake1988 said...

Anyone who thinks Bush will rank any higher than Hoover is completely delusional. I think his approval rating could get into the single digits by the time he leaves.

I'd run Robert Wexler for that Senate seat. Very strong candidate, and besides, it's a fun thing to do..

Mule Rider said...

PorridgeGun,

Again, you are citing a compilation of "opinions" as "fact." Yes, he is leaving office with one of, if not, the lowest public opinion of him of any president...but that's not the issue, unless you want it defined by those parameters.

From a quantitative standpoint, you can maybe make a case that his was the worst presidency ever, but that's still a tough sell. There are so many things intrinsic to the office and other intangibles to measure as good, bad, or indifferent to make a definitive case. James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, and Herbert Hoover all have been given big thumbs down by historians...but that is after years and years of looking back and assessing their actions in retrospect.

From a qualititave standpoint, yes, you can make a case for Bush being the worst. If nothing else, you can simply cite those approval ratings you mentioned. However, that's just it. Those are opinions. We live in an information-driven, media-crazed, hyperbolic atmosphere in these times where it's hard not to elicit strong emotions one way or the other from the masses.

He will be judged in the context of history down the road. Don't take current public opinion as your only barometer. It is foolish and nearsighted. He will go down as definitely an unsuccessful and divisive President, but saying he is the "worst ever" or something else along those lines is simply liberal rhetoric that is equally divisive and frankly it's a tired act.

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