This afternoon, Minnesota's Supreme Court will take up Norm Coleman's request (PDF) to stop the counting of so-called "fifth-pile" absentee ballots in Minnesota. These are ballots that initially were rejected by the counties, but that upon further review appear to have been rejected for invalid reasons. Finding some way to preclude these ballots from being counted might represent Coleman's best chance for victory, since the evidence points toward Franken picking up a significant number of votes if and when such ballots are included.
Coleman is making essentially two arguments in his legal brief:
1) That the Canvassing Board does not have the jurisdiction to count such ballots (rather, he claims, authority to do so rather rests solely with the courts), and,
2) That counting such ballots under the recommendation of the Canvassing Board would violate the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution, since the different counties are apparently using different procedures in attempting to count them.
Coleman's complaint is well-written and, on its surface, fairly reasonable. However, it is not clear how much good it will ultimately do him.
It seems clear enough that, as Coleman's complaint suggests, the Canvassing Board does not have the authority to require that the "fifth pile" ballots be counted. However, the Canvassing Board has not required that these ballots be included. Instead, it has merely recommended to the counties that they re-evaluate such ballots, and notified them that they will accept new vote tallies from them if they elect to do so.
The problem with this, Coleman's complaint alleges, is that the counties are applying inconsistent procedures in counting the "fifth pile" ballots. Most fundamentally, some counties are in the process of counting them, while others have chosen not to do so. Coleman contends that this violates Equal Protection, and cites Bush v. Gore as his principal point of case law. It is not fair, Coleman contends, that some counties might treat the same ballot differently from another one.
Coleman's lawsuit, however, runs into a couple of significant problems.
Firstly, if Equal Protection is being violated by the "fifth pile" process, then one can also plausibly argue that Equal Protection was violated in the initial accounting of such ballots, since some counties were apparently applying different standards to determine what did and did not constitute a legal ballot in the first place. In Duluth, for example, local officials had been rejecting any absentee ballots that did not have a date next to their signature, before discovering that this is not a valid reason for rejecting a ballot under Minnesota law.
Coleman's more fundamental problem, however, is that it is not clear what kind of remedy the court could provide him with. The most obvious remedy would not be to throw out the fifth pile ballots in their entirety, but rather to set up a process wherein such ballots are counted uniformly from county to county. One should remember that, in Florida in 2000, the recount was brushing up against a state-mandated deadline for certification of the vote (in Bush v Gore, the court did not rule against Gore so much as it declined to intervene as his clock ran out). In Minnesota, however, there appears to be no specific deadline for completing the recount, and so such a concern would not apply. If the state needs to take a little longer to see that every vote is counted, then it probably will.
It is also less than clear that Coleman would stand to benefit if such a comprehensive and consistent review of absentee ballots took place. On the contrary, to the extent that Franken expects to benefit from having the absentee ballots counted, he would probably prefer that more rather than fewer counties do so. Moreover, among the counties that have declined to count their fifth pile ballots is Ramsey (St. Paul), which is among the bluest counties in the state and a huge source of potential gains for Franken.
Coleman, then, seems to be adopting something of an underwear gnomes strategy:
1. Force Franken to go to court to get the absentee ballots counted;
2. ???
3. Profit!
Coleman could very conceivably win his lawsuit, but have it work to his ultimate detriment if the end result is a more complete and comprehensive review of the absentee ballots. Until and unless Coleman comes up with some arguments why the rejected absentee ballots should not be counted at all, he is likely spinning his wheels, regardless of what the court rules today.
12.17.2008
Coleman v. Minnesota Canvassing Board
by Nate Silver @ 9:25 AM...see also elections law, minnesota, recounts
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102 comments
Lovin the Underwear Gnomes reference! So apt and funny too! Good work!
Two Republican MN Supreme Court justices are on the canvassing board- this significantly reduces his chance of winning his case since the decisions were unanimous.
If he's citing Bush v. Gore, he's got nothing. It's the only decision in the history of the SCOTUS that specifically cannot be used as precedent for anything, ever.
peter, Coleman is not appealing a decision of the canvassing board, but asking the MN S Ct. to decide a question that the canvassing board acknowledges it does not have the authority to decide.
For all the cash Coleman has, he certainly hired a dumb set of lawyers. Any first year law student knows that Bush v Gore is specifically barred from being used as a precedent for any other case.
and just for old times sake: This is good news for Norm Coleman!
Peter's got a good point. State Supreme Courts tend to be much more consensus driven and less idealogically split than the SCOTUS, in my experience (there are exceptions in states that elect the Supremes, but I don't think Minn is one of those). So if 2 have already weighed in their views will typically be respected (although they'd likely have to recuse themselves on the actual case, as its an appeal from their "decision," they are still in position to drive the conversation).
I see two possible reasons for this strategy, both bad. The first is just thinking about winning the issue, not the overall consequences (echoes of the McCain obsession over winning "days" with the media at the expense of winning the message war). Coleman's political people may not have thought it out, which is hardly unusual but not very smart.
The second idea (and more likely to me) is that Coleman's lawyers were tasked with finding any excuse to slow the process down in the hopes that in the meantime they find something else to challenge that actually helps. This is one approach to litigation that always drove me nuts, but can work as it wears everyone else down. It can also infuriate everyone and make them want to punish you, but nothing Coleman has done to date suggests he understands the idea that having people hate you is a bad thing.
Excellent Underwear Gnomes reference.
I have to take exception, though, with the characterization of Bush v. Gore as the Supreme Court "declin[ing] to intervene as [the] clock ran out." As a lawyer who roots for the continued respectability of the Supreme Court, I had expected and fervently hoped that the Court would decline to intervene, by refusing to take the appeal. There was no need for them to get involved and sully themselves. Instead, they specifically did intervene, and stopped the recount while the clock ran out, and then ruled against Gore and said that there would be no time to correct the errors before the clock runs out. [and the Supreme Court further intervened by defining for the State Supreme Court when the clock would run out, even though that was arguably a question for the state to figure out for itself].
Am I still bitter? Absolutely. But regardless of the outcome of the election, that decision was a travesty and an embarassment to my profession. And, back to my original reason for commenting, the Supreme Court could have avoided the embarassment by not intervening.
I'll say it again: There is a footnote in Bush v. Gore that it CAN be used as precendent, but only by Republicans.
Don't bother looking, either, as the footnote is in invisible ink.
Nate, this is all fine and dandy and, yes, the bastards did kill Kenny, killed him dead, but where is the-long-awaited analysis of yesterday's Board rulings and its impact on the projections thus far?
Where is grizzle we are all dying to sink our teeth into?
~ Latte
Ironic, isn't it, that the Republicans are the party of tort reform, but they are willing to rush headlong to the courts with legal pads a-blazin' whenever it might possibly suit their interest, and on whatever flimsy pretext they can dream up?
Come on here people, it's underpants gnomes, not underwear. This is not the kind of accuracy I demand from 538.
It's a bit -- actually more than a bit -- of an exaggeration to say that the Supreme Court specifically prohibited Bush v. Gore from being used as precedent. Number one, the Supreme Court can't prohibit someone from making the argument that the case is identical, nor can they prohibit the MN Supreme Court from finding that argument persuasive. (That would be particularly the case to the extent that the equal protection provisions of the MN Constitution were being adjudicated.)
More to the point, all the SCt said was this: "Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities."
All that really means is, the lower courts are free to reach their own conclusions, i.e., are not bound by this decision as they would be normal Supreme Court precedent. Nothing, however, stops the MN Supreme Court from saying, yeah, it's the same case, and the same result -- at least in terms of finding an equal protection violation -- should follow. (I express no view on whether the cases are, in fact, similar. Surely, as pointed out by Nate, the remedy posture is completely different.)
How can he cite the Bush v. Gore ruling?
The opinion in that case stated: "Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities."
Now, I for one would say that this statement indicates that the S.C. knew that their ruling lacked any legal or constitutional justification, and was completely impossible to enforce beyond this case. However, even if we were to set aside the controversy surrounding the Bush v. Gore ruling, the opinion stated very specifically that it cannot be applied to circumstances beyond those that existed when they took case. So, Coleman appears to be very, very desperate.
Norm Coleman On Trial In FBI Probe
And he's using his campaign money for the lawyers. If he spends it all, he might not have anything left to pay the lawyers in the Supreme Court case
To just add to what I said that might make it clearer: legal precedent comes in two varieties -- binding, and persuasive. Binding precedent is one that more or less must be followed. Supreme Court rulings on questions of federal law are binding precedent. But persuasive precedent is, as the name implies, followed to the extent it is found by the court to be persuasive. Any decision may be cited for its persuasive value. And nothing in Bush v. Gore prevents it from being so cited.
Using "Bush v. Gore" and "pursuasive" in the same sentence is nothing but summum malum.
Perhaps I am just not seeing this clearly, but SCOTUS sais, in essence "This argument was good enough for us (5 to 4 no less)in this situation but we are taking pains to make it clear that there are LOTS of circumstances that might differ, so don't take this to heart." Why would any court treat it with more respect than, say, an amicus brief before it that at least has the fact set right?
I just watched Recount two days ago. These court challenges sound eerily familiar.
It seems to me there is actually a pretty good argument, namely, that SOMEONE needs to lay down some rules about which votes are included/not included. This should logically be the SoS's job, but if he hasn't done so, then it makes sense that the courts should try to enforce the rules at hand.
The logical remedy is that the court demands that ALL counties open valid ballots, with a few simple guidelines, like demanding a signature but not a date. There's no reason to think this would help Coleman, it will only slow the process but probably not change it. By the time they get this mess straightened out, the challenged ballots will be done, and Coleman's lead will have evaporated.
As for the MN recount, I wish we could have some analysis, but I can't think of any logical way to do so. So many challenges have been dismissed, but I haven't seen any count of how that affects the ultimate outcome (and I think some of the withdrawn ones have been reintroduced). Even if we have this information, we'd still need to know how the challenged ballots will ultimately be decided. We now know the outcome of 159 Franken challenges. These might or might not be representative of the whole (probably not), so we could then get a none-too-reliable extrapolation of the ultimate disposition of ALL of the Franken challenges. But for Coleman challenges, only one has been addressed, so we don't know how that will break. There's no reason to assume the board will uphold Coleman at the same rate as Franken. So we have no way of knowing how the ultimate outcome will be. There's not enough data.
One interesting tidbit is that a significant number of challenges WERE accepted, far higher than most of us had been guessing. Part of this is that the most obvious frivolous challenges had been dropped, increasing the quality of the remaining challenges. This means there is GREATER uncertainty in the final outcome than we had previously expected.
WV - sucles - If you think both candidates for an office suck, you should still vote for the one that sucles.
Why would any court treat it with more respect than, say, an amicus brief before it that at least has the fact set right?
Because it comes from the highest court in the land entrusted with determining what equal protection means under the US Constitution.
Look, I'm no fan of Bush v Gore and I think what the Supremes did there was despicable, in terms of their remedy -- i.e., stopping the vote count. But that doesn't mean the equal protection analysis -- which, if you will recall, was actually 7-2, not 5-4 -- is utterly unpersuasive or without value.
Predictions:
Coleman loses this big
Franken win
As to the role of Bush v. Gore, to the extent that there is anything in that case which was a holding and not dicta, there seem to be two "principles."
The first principle is that there need to be uniform standards. Minnesota has uniform standards.
The second principle is an "all or nothing" rule. To the extent that the Board itself can't order all counties to re-examine ballots, some counties doing it might violate this principle. However, there are two potential remedies to this problem. Either order all counties to do it now as part of the recount or tell counties to wait until the election county. Both solutions result in the absentees being counted, but one gets it done sooner and might avoid an election contest.
Finally, at this point, if Minnesota doesn't re-examine the absentee ballots, the U.S. Senate will.
Thanks for making me reread that decision, Glenn. The court made a decision not to have their analysis count for issues outside of the immediate one that they decided. Of course that does not make the analysis without value, just puts it at going-out-of-business discount.
Further, what do briefs do anyway? They cite binding precedent on issues that (if they are well-thought out) are closely related. Binding precedent cited well-- in say an amicus brief-- trumps non-binding analysis in at least one respect. Would the court be wise to cite Bush v. Gore? If not, are they going to recreate the analysis wholecloth?
All of this leads to my modest assertion-- Bush v. Gore isn't any more important than the materials a court recieves as usual guidance to do its work. Coleman's lawyers seem to be reaching for straws.
I've written before here that I view Coleman's approach to be precisely to get his case taken up by the federal courts.
If he "wins" his case before the MN Supreme Court, then the Court is likely to order a remedy akin to what the FL Supreme Court did: count all the ballots, with instructions about the rules to be used in each county. But then, as Nate suggests in his column here, this would probably mean that Franken wins the election.
But Coleman is probably betting on either losing his case before the MN Supreme Court OR winning it, with and MN Supreme Court "seeming" to interpret the 14th Amendment's "equal protection clause" (a federal constitutional rule) to fashion a remedy that's not defined by the law -- ANY law.
With either of those two outcomes -- winning and the MN SC fashioning a remedy outside existing law, or losing the case -- gives Coleman grounds for appealing the case to the federal courts.
Why would "losing" the case at the MN SC level be grounds for an appeal? Two reasons: (1) the MN SC has violated the equal protection clause, and (2) the MN SC decision was tainted by the fact that two members of the Canvassing Board are members of the MN SC, so that the court was likely to be "biased" on favor of one of the parties to the decision (the Canvassing Board); this would be true even if those two justices recused themself in the instant case.
In short, Coleman wants to lose the court case today, and thereby to change the venue.
Juris,
1) If this happens, immediately following the Minnesota SC decision will be the counting of the absentee ballots.
2) Unless the SCOTUS drops everything and ditches their families for the holiday season (only a week away), they're not going to hear this case for a while.
3) Some of these absentee ballots will be reviewed in the interim, possibly the week between Xmas and New Year's.
so my questions are:
will those counted ballots in premise 4 still be valid if the SCOTUS orders the recount stopped?
How many of the ballots will be so counted?
Do you think Franken can get a significant enough a lead going before Scalia appoints himself the Kingmaker yet again?
Couldn't the court just say "We order each board to use a Reasonable Person Standard (how would a reasonable person count a ballot in that situation in terms of intent) and then boom, EP is assured? Wouldn't that put the onus on Coleman to go find specific instances at the boards of error?
Here is a quick article that confirms ecarlson's numbers on the recount.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/17/senate-minnesota-recount-coleman-franken
I watched just a few minutes of the of the Canvassing Board's proceedings yesterday. It seemed that Ritchie was working to set a cadence with the phrase "Motion to Reject the Challenge"- I think he was trying to give momentum to a process that would reject all the challenges. I was lucky enough to see the CB stumble on two ballots- and neither was frivolous in my opinion.
Ballot Challenge 1-
One, and only one, oval was fully and neatly filled for each race on the front side of the ballot-EXCEPT for the oval in the US Senate race. The oval next to Colman had a mark at the top that filled less than 1/4 of the oval. Ritchie moved to reject the challenge and the CB member seated to Ritchie's left spoke up to question obvious voter intent and said it was could (and possibly should) be seen as an under vote, i.e. the voter did not want either candidate.
Having spent many hours of my life using my eyes to collect raw quantitative data (often in the form of dots under a microscope), I was struck by the challenge that faced the county election officials in MN and now faces the CB members.
I think I would have called that ballot an under vote- but honestly there is a reason scientists conduct SINGLE and DOUBLE Blind experiments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_experiment
Individual people cannot achieve perfect objectivity- Man oh man talk about Margin of Error.
I really cannot see the SCOTUS that brought us Bush v Gore and the debacle that has been his administration, interfering in a purely political decision AGAIN. I bet the Supremes don't even take cert, but I agree it will get there.
Remember, the Supremes are SUPPOSED to deny cert to any case that is largely or prely political...there is alot of precedent for that.
PAINFUL-
The MN Canvassing Board has so far taken 10 minutes to talk about 1 ballot and they are still going.
They have a close but not perfect precedent from yesterday-
yesterday's (near precedent) ballot went to Coleman and today almost but not quite identical ballot may or not have gone to Franken
OUCH
Lawyers from both campaigns have spoken at least twice though I belive
@John Overholt
Come on here people, it's underpants gnomes, not underwear. This is not the kind of accuracy I demand from 538.
C'mon John, it's a matter of perspective. If we were in Britain it would be 'knicker gnomes'
from two post below:
Statler N Waldorf said...
Mrs B, Matador,
I'll trade ya Bush if ya want. I mean, if you think Blair and Burlesconi suck ass, try this guy out-he'll make you nostalgic for the guys you now hate.
I mean, the man makes me miss Reagan. I can't stand Reagan, but he's better than this asshole.
December 17, 2008 10:20 AM
###########
@Statler sorry,
I am aware that Americans generally don’t care and don’t know much about foreign country and I am ok whit it, but in the other hand you probably don’t know that others country in western civilization care a lot about you and follow almost breathless your politics, so I personally know almost every single act of Bush's administration since the day one and I can easily understand your point of view .
So in a nutshell, but I must insist:
Berlusconi is, by far, the worst of the three.
Our fortune is that,
#1-we are in Europe and not in south America, so He knows He can’t start any violent dictatorship.
#2-We are an insignificant country, so our prime minister can’t get the power of your President Bush, and most of all we don’t have nuclear weapon and in consequence nuclear code launch.
I am sure that if Berlusconi could be in US’s president power, the world would have already known the WWIII.
Wish to tell you more about Italian politics, but ,I recon:
#1-it would be completely off topic and I try to be polite here in Nate&Sean property.
#2-probably people here don’t care much.
So, unless a clear sign of agreement from 538’staff to keep on posting about that mean man we got as prime minister ,I would stop here.
Maybe there will be a time in the coming months that the discussion will turn specifically toward Europe and Italian politics and in that very moment I really will be glad to join the discussion.
By now:
Aloha folks
:)
*
THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR COLEMAN!
Fred,
You know, before 2000, the federal government pretty much did play by the rules - the President didn't use signing statements as a line item veto, intelligence agencies didn't do domestic spying without a warrant, the Vice President kinda just waited there unless something happened to the Prez and didn't claim to not be part of the Executive Branch, habeas corpus had been respected since the Civil War, blah de blah blah blah
But since then, none of the Branches of Gov't have been playing by the rules. Congress rolls over like a poodle at the President's behest now, the Cheif Executive rules like an emperor, the Court does get involved in partisan politics, as it did in Bush v Gore.
We can no longer comfortably expect the US Gov't to abide by the rules. Hell, we can't even expect them to obey the Constitution.
So I say it's possible Scalia will do it yet again. Given the now even more conservative bent of the SCOTUS, with O'Connor (moderate Republican) and Rehnquist (that increasingly rare species, the Progressive Conservative) both gone and replaced by Alito (ultra-conservative) and Roberts (mainstream conservative), odds are better than they were in 2000 of thsi happening.
There's no rule of law anymore. Unless you tale that to mean that the people who make the laws rule.
1) Isn't equal protection given by the fact that every county board treats it's fifth pile of ballots the same, regardeless if that favours Coleman or Franken? That means if one county counts them and another one refuses to count them both candidates are eaqually treated within that respective county by a consistent standard.
2) I don't believe the judges have to recuse themselves because they didn't make a decision but just a recommendation.
Just out of curiosity: What happens if this whole thing is drawn out well into next year? As neither C. nor F. will be "duly choosen and sworn in" there will be just 99 sitting senators. The number needed for cloture then is three-fifths of 99 (59.4). Is that number rounded up or down? (Or do they use up some senatorial leftovers for the missing 2/5)?
No, there will be 98 sitting senators becuase former bookie (yup, go read Huffinton Post) Blago has screwed up IL.
@Brad
I think he will have auctioned the empty seat by January :-)
peter said...
Two Republican MN Supreme Court justices are on the canvassing board- this significantly reduces his chance of winning his case since the decisions were unanimous.
As I understand from reading the coverage, these two members are expected to recuse themselves from this decision.
Even if Coleman loses at the state Supreme Court, what makes ayone think the U.S. Supreme Court wants to hear this case? It would probably stay as far away as possible.
As mentioned in this thread, Bush v. Gore is at best persuasive on the Minnesota court. It may not even be all the persuasive in light of how the Supreme Ct. limited its ruling. But no matter what the decision, it should only effect how the ballots are counted. So it's not a Bush v. Gore type situation where ballots weren't counted.
In the final analysis, valid votes are going to get counted. You guys seem to go to court whenever you have nothing else to do, but in the context of a complete recount no court is going to instruct the canvassing board not to tally up all the valid votes.
The only candidate likely to have useful recourse to the courts is Franken - if blatant inequity is created because one county refuses to re-examine rejected ballots, how could the court accept that and what would be the obvious remedy? But if when all the counties have so re-examined, Coleman went to court saying some did it slightly differently, what good would it do him? There's no time limit.
This is simply a question of ballots which are clearly valid, and whether they should all be counted. To argue that some should be excluded for the sake of adhering to error is not at all easy.
There is no evidence, zero, that Frankencrack would be favored in the improperly rejected absentee ballots. Why would you assume that the ballots would be coming from all or proportionately from precincts as in the general election. There is no way to evaluate.
The only critical piece of the puzzle is now what the count will be form challenge ballots that were released. For the challenged ballots that are being canvassed, Coleman will be substantially ahead after both candidates are done.
There is no evidence, zero, that Frankencrack would be favored in the improperly rejected absentee ballots.
You mean except for the polls showing a significant Franken lead in early voting?
Several small points to make:
(1) Since different counties may have substantially different demographics, it is only fair to count the improperly rejected ballots from all counties, instead of just one.
(2) Two of the people on the MN SC voted in favor of these being counted. Even if they recuse themselves (which they probably will) and even if their buddies can ignore the fact that their friends are on one side, this suggests that legal precedent favors counting over not counting
(3) Though we can't be sure, odds are that improperly rejected ballots will go the way of properly accepted ballots. Thus, odds are that if you count 1500 improperly rejected ballots, it will be effectively +100 or so for Franken.
(4) There's no way to predict who will be ahead at the end of the canvassing until we know how often Coleman challenges are upheld. Assuming the same number are upheld as Franken, there should be a virtual tie, assuming Franken is properly reporting the judgements of the initial judges. Note that Coleman has not contradicted Franken on this.
(5) THIS ISN'T FLORIDA. The conditions under which the SCOTUS stopped the recount are very different here. For most ballots, there is LOTS of information telling us voter intent, and pretty good consistent criteria that can narrow the number of truly controversial ballots down to double digits or so. Whatever you think of the Florida recount, it was clearly a much more difficult judgment. Furthermore, the act of handling THOSE ballots had a significant chance of altering the ballots, actually destroying the evidence.
I would imagine that if Coleman appeals, he would go first to federal district court, not directly to the SCOTUS. A lower level federal court could in principle respond to Coleman's appeal and order the State of MN not to finalize/certify the election result until the parties had a chance to present their cases to the court.
Recall that in 2000, the Bush legal team pursued two strategies simultaneously -- one via the court system of Florida and another via the federal (district) court. If I'm not mistaken, those were merged after the SCOTUS (Rehnquist) first asked the FL SC to elucidate the legal grounds under which they had issued their order to keep counting going (up til then treated a "state" law matter), and then when the legal grounds was stated to include federal law and not just state law -- and when the FL SC issued its last order to count all uncounted ballots in all counties (but did not issue clear instructions on how to count, or set up a clear administrative procedure for adjudicating disputes)-- the required 4 justices the SCOTUS pounced granted cert.
Until then the legal consensus at the time was that the SCOTUS would defer to the state, as the administration of elections was a state matter, not a federal one; and further that this was mainly a "political" question and not a constitutional one.
But the consensus was wrong.
There is already PLENTY of evidence, presented by both sides, that there HAS been disparate treatment of absentee ballot envelopes.
At first I had suggested the MN Supremes (- the two on the CB)or their designee (a Special Master Judge or whatever) define exacting criteria for acceptance/rejection of absentee ballot envelopes, and then ALL 12,000 rejected absentee envelopes be sent to the Supremes or designee for evaluation in a consistent manner.
I now believe this would be nearly impossible to do, as local officials have the materials to do things such as signature checking and so forth. So the Supremes still need to establish exacting criteria and process for the local county officials to follow in order to assure that every legally cast ballot is indeed counted.
Coleman may bring up another point in this, that is what about the absentee ballot envelopes that were erroneously ACCEPTED (and ballots counted) on Election Day, due to election officials mistakes? But there's no way of resolving that issue, as the ballots have been counted (if they weren't spoiled) and I'm guessing the absentee envelopes were destroyed after the ballot was removed from the envelope.
I would imagine that if Coleman appeals, he would go first to federal district court, not directly to the SCOTUS.
Except, federal district courts are barred by the Rooker-Feldman doctrine from hearing a case that is, in effect, an appeal from a state court decision. It is possible that he could come up with some completely new cause of action to bring in federal court, but in all likelihood his only practical recourse would be to SCOTUS. And I agree with those who think that the Supremes will have nothing to do with this case.
"
If he "wins" his case before the MN Supreme Court, then the Court is likely to order a remedy akin to what the FL Supreme Court did: count all the ballots, with instructions about the rules to be used in each county. But then, as Nate suggests in his column here, this would probably mean that Franken wins the election.
But Coleman is probably betting on either losing his case before the MN Supreme Court OR winning it, with and MN Supreme Court "seeming" to interpret the 14th Amendment's "equal protection clause" (a federal constitutional rule) to fashion a remedy that's not defined by the law -- ANY law."
Actually the path for Coleman is much longer and more difficult that that.
If he loses as expected in the MN S.Ct., then he takes his equal protection argument to the Fed. D. Ct. for Minnesota, which decision will be appealed to the Circuit Court of Appeals, and then to the S.Ct.
If the Federal courts intervene, there'll be intense outrage at Republicans having stolen ANOTHER election via partisan judges on the S.Ct. overruling a state court decision.
A lot of the reason they got away with it the last time was that it was so unexpected nobody was prepared for that level of cheating.
This time Congressional Democrats are unlikely to sit still for that kind of fraud. They can simply demand a re-election and refuse to seat Coleman.
This has precedent back in 1976.
Then Coleman would have to win another campaign.
Of course, he's prepared to go to the mattresses for as long as it takes to win, but he can't just win a court decision NOT to count all the ballots and expect to walk into the Senate and have Democrats just accept that.
If Franken wins at the state level, he takes his seat unless Coleman somehow wins in Federal Court.
So possibilities 1-4:
1. State court orders counties NOT to count ballots = Coleman wins state level. Franken appeals. Federal courts rule in favor of Franken. He wins, overturning State S.Ct. decision (reverse Bush v. Gore). (Unlikely).
2. State court orders counties NOT to count ballots = Coleman wins state level. Franken appeals. Federal courts rule in favor of Coleman. He wins. (Unlikely).
3. State court orders all counties to count ballots = Franken wins state level. Coleman federal appeal denied = Franken Wins. (Most likely scenario).
4. State court orders all counties to count ballots = Franken wins state level. Coleman appeals & overturns state court -- orders votes NOT counted. Coleman wins.
Senate Dems outraged - order new election and refuse to seat Coleman. He has to appeal that decision to the S.Ct. or fight a re-election.
It seems difficult to believe the S.Ct. would willingly drag it's name in the mud ONCE AGAIN by making a purely partisan ruling, but Scalia is blatantly unapologetic about the last one, so perhaps they'd enjoy another "in your face opinion."
If they have a grain of sense, they'd steer clear of this controversy and let the State and Congress handle it, unless Coleman is suing to be seated. Then they might intervene and decide that case.
But, anything they did would be unpopular and would cause MORE controversy and further undermine the authority of the S.Ct. which is frankly the last thing they need right now.
I mean the one case the S.Ct. might HAVE to rule on would be where the Senate refused to seat Coleman and ordered a new election.
They could then overrule the Senate, but that would would really cause the shit to hit the fan!
No Cugel, you're wrong. If Coleman raises an equal protection argument that the Minn. S. Ct. rejects, that argument is directly appealable to the US Supreme Court, which sits as the court of last resort over all state supreme courts on issues of federal law. If Coleman's legal team raises and loses on solely state law questions and they later want to assert a federal law question in another action (a la Florida 2000), then it proceeds through the US District Court and Court of Appeals.
Actually Cugel, there's another possibility:
State court orders all counties to count ballots = Coleman wins state level.
This is too close and too difficult to see what is going on to be able to state for a fact that Franken will definitely win if all the votes are counted.
I would prefer Franken to win, but to be honest, the most important thing for me is that all the valid votes are properly counted, and the winner is actually the one who got the most votes.
I don't understand policy-wise why the canvassing board has the power to evaluate and allocate ballots for in-person voting to either candidate (or no one), and can decide that lost ballots should be counted per the original election night count, but does not have the power to order counties to count absentee ballots that have now determined to have been originally rejected for no valid reason. Sounds like poorly written law.
cugel, I don't think Supremes could overrule the Senate if it determined that the election results were invalid for some reason such as failure to count absentee votes. That the Senate is the judge of elections to the Senate is about as plain as it gets in the Constitution.
Currently the CB has rule on 339 of about 500 Franken challenges
55.5% have gone to Coleman
14% have gone to Franken
30.5% have gone to neither (no discernible voter intent)
But the number of challenges are changing according to the Guardian article http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/17/senate-minnesota-recount-coleman-franken
there are about 1500 challenges
about 500 Franken challenges
and 1000 Coleman challenges-
If the rates of allocation are the same between the Franken and Coleman challenges it might look some thing like this by Friday:
Votes for Franken
500*0.14=70
1000*0.555=555
Total +625
Votes for Coleman
500*0.554=277
1000*0.14=140
Total +417
Votes that cannot be counted for Coleman or Franken
500*0.305=153
1000*0.305=305
total 458
Which gives Franken a net gain of about 210 votes after the CB finishes reviewing the challenges.
It is true Coleman's challenges may not pan out like Franken's. And Coleman's team is adjusting their challenge strategies in response to the CB's ruling. But I think, if anything, Coleman's challenges are going to favor Franken more than Franken's challenges have favored Coleman.
I think Franken is going to pick up at least a net gain of 200 votes relative to Coleman!!
Bush v. Gore raising its ugly head again, sigh.
Jonathan said "...and the Supreme Court further intervened by defining for the State Supreme Court when the clock would run out, even though that was arguably a question for the state to figure out for itself..."
A little worse than that, actually. The Supreme Court was *inventing* the notion of a "clock running out": it had always been bedrock American election law that effectuating the will of the voters is PARAMOUNT (the US Constitution itself has no legal validity except as grounded in the will of "We the People"), over considerations such as "finality" that might be important in contexts other than elections.
The most recent precedent on that had even been in Florida, where an election result (mayoral race in Miami) was overturned *over a year after the purported winner had been inaugurated*. The US Constitution (20th amendment) has a provision for Presidential election disputes dragging on past inauguration day (Clinton should have remained Acting President until the matter was settled, if it took that long). The very statute they cited as requiring their "deadline" had already been applied once to a recount that dragged on into January (Hawaii recount 1960; recount results accepted over early erroneous certification). Their assertion that a wrong result must be allowed to stand unchallengeably, rather than taking the time to get a right result, was a monumental legal error.
Juris said "...when the FL SC issued its last order to count all uncounted ballots in all counties (but did not issue clear instructions on how to count, or set up a clear administrative procedure for adjudicating disputes)"
Here the SCOTUS was guilty of an error of FACT. The Florida Supreme Court did, in fact, appoint a single judge to resolve all disputes in a uniform manner.
@ Mrs. B: That's my interest, too -- to count all the legally cast ballots as fairly as possible. But we also know that ultimately there are many judgment calls in examining disputed ballots. That's why an august Canvassing Board was set up -- to make judgments.
At this time it's looking like Franken may win the majority of votes after the review of challenged ballots.
But the remaining issue at hand has less with how to read the ballots (for Coleman or Franken or "other") than which ballots to read. At this time, aside from the minor problem of the 133 lost ballots, there is the major problem of whether any body has the power to mandate a review and recounting of absentee ballots. It appears that the Canvassing Board cannot mandate this. But can they receive a recount -- including adjudicating on challenged -- of the absentee ballots, and specially those that were declared ineligible at the local level? And can they do this given that counties all have different standards and procedures for determining whether an absentee ballot was validly accepted or rejected?
There's simply a hole in MN law on this. And as Nate notes, that's where Coleman is trying to take advantage.
There is doubtless some supercedent principle -- as there was in Florida, to which the FL SC itself referred -- that there is a constitutional obligation to make every legal vote count. And I imaging this is where the MN SC will also come down -- that voting is the key aspect of the republican form of democracy.
But there remains question whether the MN SC will issue express orders, consistent with that principle and with "equal protection" under Minnesota constitutional law, that will assure a consistent way of determining eligibility of absentee votes. I think they will do so.
But that's not likely to stop Coleman from venue shopping.
Upon further investigation, it appears there is no explicit "equal protection" clause in the MN constitution.
However, Article 2 of the MN Bill of Rights would seem to have an implicit equal protection clause.
Sec. 2. Rights and privileges. No member of this state shall be disfranchised or deprived of any of the rights or privileges secured to any citizen thereof, unless by the law of the land or the judgment of his peers. There shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in the state otherwise than as punishment for a crime of which the party has been convicted.
This can be read constructively as an equal protection clause: "No member shall be disenfranchised or deprived of the rights and privileges secured to any citizen. . . ."
The SCOTUS in this matter, assuming that a party tries to take it there, would have to hear the matter by certiorari, which is discretionary, rather than by appeal. SCOTUS must hear cases that arise under appeal.
Appeals from final judgments of a states highest appellate court are only (at least as far as I can recall my federal jurisdiction class more than 30 yeaars ago) available if that state court has declared a federal statute unconstituionl. In this case, in which the highest court of a state will merely have interpreted federal law, the SCOTUS must first decide if it wants to hear the case. (That is, grants the Peitition for a Writ of Certiorari.)
The odds are overwhleming that they will deny the (hypothetical) request for a Writ of Certiorari (that is, it will decline to hear the case).
wv=sestr
how twisted!
@judas_priest. Those odds were long in 2000 as well, according to the consensus of Supreme Court experts at the time. But look what can happen when you have an activist conservative court!
Bob X said...
Bush v. Gore raising its ugly head again, sigh.
To paraphrase Tina Fey: "I can see SCOTUS from my house"
How long can Coleman drag it out? At some point the Senate is going to start meeting and voting on things, organizing committees and so forth ... could keeping it at a 58 - 41 majority for a while make a difference?
If anyone is still reading down here, the Minnesota Star-Tribune is providing a live stream of the canvassing board as it rules on the validity of individual ballots. It's actually pretty interesting.
Oops, forgot the link:
http://tinyurl.com/5d66u3
I thought nobody was allowed to cite Bush v. Gore on the equal protection aspect of the ruling!
In Bush v. Gore the majority (Rehnquist?) stated that the results of that case were sui generis and should not be taken as precedent for any subsequent cases.
But that statement itself has no binding character. So when a different case comes up with an equal protection issue there's nothing to compel the court to deny cert simply because of what the court wrote in a previous case 8 years ago.
Just wanted to let everyone know they've finished the Franken challenges. Of 414, 233 went to Coleman, 64 to Franken, and 117 to nobody. Soon, perhaps today, they'll start to look at Coleman challenges.
I don't know if the current totals include all the dropped challenges. There are also apparently 'voting irregularity' challenges, where someone had access to the ballots that shouldn't have. Have no idea what will become of those.
My read of the way challenges are going thus far favors Franken to emerge with a small lead after the challenges for both candidates are all evaluated, even before considering the uncounted absentee ballots. Here's my methodology:
(1) According to the latest news report, So where do we stand? So far (http://washingtonindependent.com/22439/franken-makes-small-gains-in-painstaking-recount), 339 out of Franken challenges have been ruled on, of which 188 have been awarded to Coleman, 48 to Franken, and 103 allocated to neither/other. That's a net gain for Coleman of 140 votes, which means that Coleman has been picking up 140/339 = 0.412979 votes per ballot challenged by Franken.
If we assume that this pattern holds for all challenged ballots from both camps, then we know that Franken has a total of 439 challenges and Coleman has "around 1,000." In other words, Coleman has 561 more challenges than Franken, so once all the challenges are evaluated, Franken will pick up a net 561 * 0.412979 = 232 votes.
This assumes, of course, that both candidates' challenges have the same success rate. Given that there are more total challenges from the Coleman camp, however, it's reasonable to suspect that their challenge pool contains more marginal challenges than Franken's challenge pool, in which case the net gain for Franken would be higher than the above estimate.
In the event that the above estimate holds, though, the result would give Franken the election by a margin of 50 votes, even without considering the uncounted absentee ballots.
You guys are on crack. There is no way to determine how many of Coleman's challenges will go which way. We have no way of knowing which way the impact of released challenges go either. The could favor one candidate or they could remain a nonvote.
Anyone who thinks challenges will go one way or the other just isn't paying attention.
@mbz,
Don't forget that the withdrawn challenges have to be added into the mix. Franken has ~435 more withdrawn challenges than Coleman.... Approx numbers... 3278 - 466 = 2812 withdrawn Franken challenges, 3377 - 1000 = 2377 withdrawn Coleman challenges.
A Franken margin of 50 votes would be remarkably close to Nate's original estimate of a 27 vote Franken win.
Updated numbers from the Minneapolis Star-Tribune's blog:
Final, unofficial, tally of Franken’s 414 challenges:
233 allocated to Coleman
64 allocated to Franken
117 allocated to neither/other
Seems to me that ASSUMING that most of these ballots were initially ruled for Coleman, that him getting "only" 233 of them is pretty good news for Franken. On the otherhand, we have no idea how many of the ballots were ruled neither/other and Franken challenged, hoping to have it count for him.
the recount was brushing up against a state-mandated deadline for certification of the vote
The Court's presumption that Florida did not want to violate the safe harbor provision of the Electoral Count Act no matter what is not in any sense a state mandated deadline.
Scalia and the Supremes; there's a band I don't want to hear play again
Okay since Nate might aswell be on vacation here (We don't visit here to see the same stuff we can get on TPM) lets see if I can do some math that is even close to what he does (I can't)...
Todays numbers today and all the numbers in general have gone down like this:
56% challenges given to Coleman
15% challenges to Franken
39% to Others/None
So since we are now on to Coleman challenges we can try to assume-
A)
The board does the same in reverse and awads the remaining ballots allong these lines meaning that Al gains ~ 490 votes net, and this puts him ahead by 134 votes.
B)
Colemans votes were more friviolous and thus just increase margin from above
C)
Coleman has more meritorious challenges decrease margin
D)
Coleman has planned to change the rules on his side of the recount by bringing up new information in the coming days to change the way his challenges will be viewed
I think D is the most probable, and this makes me ask why on earth were the challenges seperated by canidate. This is seems counter intuitve to every thing this whole canvassing board was meant for. I mean why does it have to be that after seeing the way through the maze the Coleman team gets a turn...I cant find any statute in MN law asnd I abhor minutes of previous meetings anyone know who made this call and why?
Seems D is coming true since I read a latter update that he challenged some sort of duplicate votes. It seems the CB will rule on them before they delve into the Coleman challenges tommorow. I would understand that there is little evidence that these are duplicates other that they look like another ballot, unless there is something like an identical stray mark or hand writing, whisch I would assume means that these would not be counted I mean this is not hard, agian I can't watch the proccedings so if anyone was...
Even Al Sharpton is against Card-check (EFCA).
I think EFCA is DOA....
The STrib is reporting these figures (I would ignore the projections and remaining values, the numbers don't add up)
There are a few Coleman challenges in there, but most of it is Franken.
Two questions.
1) I thought Franken had over 450 challenges, yet the board only ruled on 391 of them. What's up with that?
2) Out of the 110 no votes, how many were rejected Franken attempts at adding a vote (as opposed to accepted Franken attempts to take away a vote)?
Here is a quick analysis of the vote so far, and Nate or anyone tell me where I am going wrong here if I am. Although sites like the Strib keep putting up numbers that refer to the Coleman margin when there were 6600 challenges and then adding in the results of the board on the Franken challenges, these numbers are meaningless. We have no idea about what happened with all the retracted challenges, and Franken retracted far more than Coleman, by a count of somewhere between 500 and 700. And so any numbers we see being put up make little sense until the retracted challenges are addressed.
We do know, however, that the Franken campaign has claimed that if all challenges were rejected then Franken would be up four votes. It is not clear if this is true, but it is probably close to true. Let’s say that if all challenges were rejected then it would be a tossup. This makes it possible to think about the challenge process in a new way. It is like cricket. One team bats first and puts up a number. Then the other team gets to bat all its players and put up a number in an effort to beat the first team’s number.
Well, what are the numbers? Franken numbers include the 64 votes that the board awarded him, plus some percentage of the 114 votes awarded to others. Some of those included now in the “others” were initially for Coleman. These are successful Franken challenges that have not been recorded as such as they count just as much in the margin between the candidates. Probably Franken won about a quarter of the challenges that resulted in votes for “other.” Unfortunately no one calculated these separately. Let’s call it an additional 30 or so votes to Franken’s margin. (It is theoretically possible that a vote to Coleman would be turned to a vote for Franken by the board and thus be worth double, but I did not see it happen. Nor were there challenges to no or other votes that were converted to Coleman’s totals. Franken has 28 challenges remaining, and let’s say he gets another six or seven out of that.)
And so Coleman in his turn at bat needs to win about 100 challenges to catch Franken. Again these would mainly be converting "other" votes to Coleman, and Franken votes to "other." Coleman gets to bat (for far longer since he has decided to have more challenges), but and will have to win more than 100 of his challenges to win the game. If he is successful at the same rate as Franken, Coleman will win easily. Coleman will have more chances to get to his 100 or so, but he is going to bat a very low percentage if other analyses of challenged ballots are to be believed. He is going to win challenges probably at a less than 10 percent rate. And I think the Coleman people may know this as the Coleman reps were up in arms about over duplicate ballots at the end of today’s session. So consider Franken up about 100 going into Coleman's challenges. It is not much of a lead, but probably it is insurmountable.
The duplicate ballot question is tricky. If a ballot at a polling place would NOT feed into the counting machine, then the poll worker made a duplicate - marked it duplicate 1 and fed it into the machine. The original ballot was also marked as having been duplicated as number 1. etc.
During the recount, both campaigns agreed to count the Original - better and more accurate. But now, some of the challenges are because there are unnumbered originals or duplicates and Coleman claims maybe both the original and the duplicate got counted. So the vote was counted twice. So these ballots should NOT be counted as they may already have been counted. Most poll workers and observers feel that ballots were handled very carefully and it is unlikely any votes were counted twice. So these challenges should be counted. The court will decide tomorrow.
Re whether SCOTUS will accept a Coleman appeal:I don't think so.
"Well,they accepted Bush v. Gore" you say?
Yes,but you (everybody here) are forgetting one important fact.
And that is that SCOTUS was under enormous pressure to do something because THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE ELECTORS WERE BEING SELECTED IN A VERY FEW DAYS AND PANIC WAS SETTING IN AS TO WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH THE FLORIDA SELECTION AND WOULD THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTE IN JANUARY BE ABLE TO TAKE PLACE.
No such problem now,of course.
I watched the recount for hours - like eating peanuts - just cannot stop. Two things are perfectly clear to me now:
1. When in doubt - count it.
2. The judging now is very consistent and fairl.
As each ballot is examined, Ritchie makes a motion to reject the challenge and only a clear problem overturns the challenge. For example, some ballots have both ovals filled in but one oval also has an X through it. This is counted for the candidate without the X in the oval. You might think this is a duplicate, but the judges view the X as an attempt to void the wrong vote. AFter the first twenty of thirty votes, the judges kept seeing the same type of challenge over and over again and are now quickly ruling the same on each one.
For example, lots of ballots were challenged because they have identifying marks which are not allowed. However the board now rules that any name or identifying mark in a "write-in" is OK and ONLY if the name is in a margin area is the ballot rejected.
Another common challenge is one oval filled in and a mark also is in another oval so it is an overvote. But the board votes that the voter intent can be determined because the one oval is not completely filled in. They rejected a challenge even when the second oval was two-thirds filled in.
This now seems very fair to me for two reasons. First the board is bending over backwards to count every vote possible - voter intent is all. Secondly, they have become extremely consistent so whether you agree or not, both candidates will be treated the same way.
I predict Franken wins by 180 votes.
I was watching-
There was a very long discussion regarding the issue of counting duplicate vs original ballots for those ballots had to be duplicated on election night because the original ballot was not readable by the machine.
Before the CB started its work both campaigns (C and F) lobbied the SoS to make a rule that the counties and the CB must use the only the ORIGINAL ballot not the DUPLICATE. That is how the CB and the Franken campaign proceeded. Now the Coleman team wants to change the rules so that the CB count only the DUPLICATE but not the ORIGINAL.
Franken's campaign agree to withdraw those ballots from the CB's consideration because of the rule that both campaigns argue be put in place.
Coleman's Campaign is challenging about 150 of these types of ballots that, they argue, are being counted twice (double counted). They say the paper trail for the 150 ballots-including incident reports by county election officials- suggest that the ballots have not been handled or accounted for properly, and as a result, were counted twice. Originals and their duplicate were supposed to be identified as such with handwritten comments (ie "Original#1" "Duplicate#1") by county election officials on election night. Coleman's team argues that based on their evaluate of the ballots where the original or the duplicate cannot be found or the numbers don't match between the original and the duplicate don't match, there has been double counting of these 150 ballots.
Three main points emerged from the discussion
1) The two MNSC members of the CB were convinced that there is a good chance that the problem the Coleman team is bringing forth could result in some ballots being counted twice.
2)Several CB members, most notably one of the MNSC justices, are very trouble by the belated timing of the Coleman teams arguments, and that it is in direct contradiction to a rule that both campaigns lobbied for and agreed two.
The MNSC justices something to the effect of-Doesn't the late timing of this argument make an future path we take highly problematic.
3) There were strong statements that the the duplicate ballot issue raised by Coleman's team could not be resolved without fact finding and, therefore the CB is not the appropriate venue for resolution of this issue. i.e.The issue was in the jurisdiction of an elections court and should be settled in those venues.
@Shadow Gunman
I think you are absolutely right about separating the challenges by campaign-
it gives a two fold advantage to the campaign that has their challenges reviewed in second seat.
1) they get an early lead in the recount process. Mostly a PR issue but probably a significant advantage in our current American Idol culture.
2) Team two can learn from the process, and develop superior strategies. (like the machine in "The Incredibles"
NEVERTHELESS- the numbers are pointing STRONGLY towards a Franken lead after the CB finishes its review. It is just that these issue lead to more court room foder. I hope the US Senate can step in sooner rather than later.
wv-chiken the game Blog is playing with IL
As usual, the results released are not quite the right combination needed to make any prediction without adding shaky subjective guesses. In particular some of the estimates above amount to calculations of what changes will occur above a baseline which is seriously unknown (after challenge withdrawals).
Edwin at least starts with a relatively solid (all challenges rejected) baseline, near tied. I would make a slightly more pessimistic calculation. We are pretty sure that there were more F than C ballots with 'countability' either just above or just below threshold. So F would probably win if the Board tended to move that threshold down but tend to lose if they move it up. What you'd like to see today would be lots of new F votes accepted by challenge and (ironically) few C votes tossed by challenge. Then F would pull ahead when the same standards were applied to C challenges.
There were surprisingly many new F votes taken in: good. We don't have a clear number on how many C votes F got tossed, but it may be larger than we had expected. Again, that sounds good in the short run but by the end of the week it may not be.
Now that the Franken challenges are complete, the challenges broke down as 15% going for Franken and 57% for Coleman, the remainder were tossed out. If Coleman's challenges have a similar breakdown for the challenger (i.e., 15% for Coleman and 57% for Franken), assuming there are 1,000 challenged ballots, Franken will come out with a net gain of 420. Since Coleman presently leads by 365 votes after the Franken challenges were exhausted, Franken projects to win the recount by 55 votes without adding in the improperly rejected absentee ballots. If so, will Coleman concede the election to Franken, as he insisted Franken do before the automatic recount began?
One mystery solved. Franken withdrew 79 more ballots today. That's why the board reviewed less than 400 of his challenges.
GReat post as always however it is not true that "(in Bush v Gore, the court did not rule against Gore so much as it declined to intervene as his clock ran out)." The Florida Supreme Court had decided that the deadline didn't matter and ordered a statewide recount.
The US supreme court had to intervene to over-rule the Florida supreme court. An opinion attempts to determine the original intent of the Florida state legislature in setting the deadline.
It was not quite completely un-precedented for the US supreme court to claim the authority to re-evaluate a state supreme court's interpretation of a state law. However, it was almost unprecedented.
I'm not even a lawyer, but I think constitutional lawyers generally agree that Bush Vs Gore was one of the most extreme cases of judicial activism and plain contempt for the constitution in the Court's history. At the moment, I can't think of any prominent lawyer who is willing to defend the decision (and that definitely includes Antonin Scalia who refused to discuss it in an interview).
A problem for Coleman is that the (anonymous) decision written for the majority was clearly written by a justice who was at least aware that, to the extent Bush vs Gore established precedent, it would be a terrible precedent. The opinion includes a sentence something like "Each election is special and thus ... we're doing this now because we want Bush in the White House, but no court should ever do such a thing ever again." except in fancier language.
Three problems with using the Franken challenge results to determine who will be ahead when the counting is done.
First, the number of challenges to be presented is still somewhat in flux. Coleman has indicated that they may reinstate a significant number of ballots. Depending on the decision on the duplicate ballot issue in the morning, Franken may either add a large number or a small number of additional challenges.
Second, I have yet to see anybody do the number crunching on the ballots which have been withdrawn. The list of withdrawn challenges is on the SoS website. Where are the number crunching geeks to convert those withdrawals into an accurate vote count. (They also have the rulings on the Franken ballots which would give us a better hunch of how the breakdown of approved-rejected as to challenges to Coleman votes and challenges to non-votes).
Third, any use of the Franken results assumes that Coleman's remaining challenges have a similar composition and merit as the Franken challenges -- a dubious assumption on both parts.
Bush V. Gore is an unpublished decision. Including it not for precedent but for sympathy? Comparing self to Gore? Poor baby! Gore didn't petition to have votes squashed!
@Jack be nimble,
it's probably pointless to argue with you, but here goes nothing. We do have a pretty good feeling about the nature of Coleman challenges in his stack of 1000+ to know which way they will go. There is no mystery there.
Some of us have looked at nearly all the challenged ballots, keeping track of each category and subcategory, some of us have verified what Elias has been claiming independently, some of us have been reading what the Associated Press had to say about their own independent review of the challenged ballots, and finally, some of us have read the story in Strib, citing 15 independent ballot reviewers throughout the country who have gone through the vast majority of ballots and who gave it to Franken.
So there is at least some evidence for the Franken camp to be optimistic at this point. We base it on 1)quality of Franken challenges (amazingly high percentage survived the CB review. My feeling that number is close to 1 in 4, adding 15.2% flip to Franken rate to the take away from Coleman rate to the "other" pile), 2) the aforementioned high success rate of Franken challenges, 3)the fact that Coleman would now have to bet better than even that to survive.
I want to make a handwaving analysis without the rigors of KWR/mediapost math. Assuming that Elias was correct, and we started with +4 Franken, if all the challenges are dismissed, then Franken is now at +4+63+Coleman takeaways. I am ballparking that sum to be around 100 (33 takeaways out of 113 in the other pile).
In addition to that, some of those 63 were perfect "flips" and not just an overvote call by the judge going to Franken, but a vote originally called for Coleman flipped to Franken, which counts for a net gain of 2 for Franken. I do not have a number on those, but afair, I saw some yesterday and posted on theuptake live as it happened.
All that means that Coleman would need to have way over 100 take aways from Al in his 1000 challenges. I am willing to grant you that the first 300-400 challenges are going to be fairly solid, but having seen Coleman challenges and how the Board has been calling them, there is no way Nohm can keep that success pace through his second third of the challenges, never mind the last bottom of the barrel.
-------
So, here is this liberal's source for optimism.
~ Latte
Can someone explain to me how this is a Coleman vote? It's vote 34 of 161 on 12/16 on the STrib site. There appear to be 2 pin prick size dots (you have to look closely to even see those). It's hard to imagine how lightly a pen would have had to touch the paper in order for these 2 miniscule marks to appear. The rest of the ballot has clearly filled in ovals throughout. I can't believe this was deemed a vote. Hopefully the STrib site is wrong and this challenge really was upheld as an Other vote, but currently it is listed as a Coleman vote.
http://senaterecount.startribune.com/media/ballotPDFs/carlton_PerchLake_challengedballot1.pdf
@ mediapost:
I don't know how this particular ballot was allocated in the end, but I saw several examples where the PDF looked like no vote, but when the board looked at the original, they all agreed that there was a clear marking. My guess is that some other writing implement other than the designated one was used by the voter for the Senate seat. The judge said it's a vote for Coleman, Franken said, 'no, look, it's different than the other votes," and the board sided with Coleman.
In the dozens of challenges I actually watched, I saw no evidence of bias, and lots of evidence they were working VERY hard to be consistent.
I'm hoping that Franken's high challenge success rate is good news for him, but I'm not 100% sure it really is. Most challenges are not stand-alone cases, they fall into a category. For example, I've seen several single ovals filled in with an X in them. Those were deemed to be votes by the local judges but they are now deemed to be undervotes by the CB. This appears to be good news for Franken, but only because his challenges are the ones being evaluated first. The only way this is good news for him in the long run is if Coleman has challenged fewer single ovals with Xs through them than Franken has. It also appears that there are a significant number of IDs mark ballots that the CB is rejecting that the local judges didn't. Again, Franken's increased success at this point doesn't necessarily bode well for him in the long run. It just depends on how many of each type of challenge each camp has. I think I'd be happier if the judges had rejected everyone of the Franken's challenges... but I hope I'm wrong.
@ecarlson,
Thanks, this is listed on the STrib site as going to Coleman. I 'd love to see the original on this one.
I agree with Edwin's mode of analysis above, and also his example from the game of Cricket.
Commenters at TheUptake and elsewhere who've glibly projected a "triple-digit Franken win" (in this stage ending Friday/whenever) are IMO incorrectly basing on the STrib-style margin, now showing as Coleman +358, and clearly figured as the original +188 (which the "+192" was adjusted to) plus Coleman's 234 minus Franken's 64 from Franken's challenges. What they overlook is the effect of Franken's greater # of withdrawn challenges. I can illustrate simply by mentioning the 79 extra challenges Franken withdrew today. Supposing 50 of them to have been against Coleman votes, if they had been processed, we'd all be seeing and basing on "+408" today, equally aimlessly. None of the withdrawals has been processed---and the fact that some may be "unwithdrawn" is all the more reason a crush-busy SoS office can't even touch them until next week.
Yes, there will be some spin value to seeing the "+358" probably flip over to a Franken lead sometime Friday if the CB is able to whip thru 800+ challenges. Perhaps realizing that will give the Coleman camp motive to cut them down so that some Franken votes get the same publicity delay. But insofar as we're trying to track the actual score amid more obfuscating factors, I see nothing other than to keep working from Franken's "+4 with all challenges denied."
I haven't been able to find a report of how many Franken challenges against Coleman votes were upheld. It was said to be 7 from 160 total challenges yesterday which would project to 18-20, but people here and there are saying "33" or "30", which I'll hedge as 30 but noting from Latte that 2 of those were flips into Franken rather than flops into Other. Using the STrib's figures of:
415 resolved challenges, 234 Coleman, 64 Franken, 117 Other,
this means 28 Other were ex-Colemans, so 89 are non-Frankens, so Franken won 62 from 151 (=62+89) undervote challenges, and won 32 from 264 overvote challenges (counting the 2 flips as double wins), so he won 94 challenges total. Assuming Franken started +4 from the all-challenges-denied position---and blithely ignoring the 3-digit variable from the absentees and the 2-digit variable from the "new" duplicate-ballots issue---we can say that Coleman's target is
98 challenge wins.
What's involved in his getting to this figure? To guesstimate, we finally assume that our initial projection from Mediapost's reporting is correct: that Franken made about 350 non-vote challenges to Coleman's 250 (the difference of 100/101 being objectively deduced from Elias' reporting).
Since per the above we saw 151 non-vote challenges by Franken, we infer that Franken set aside about 200 of his---but from the Coleman camp's behavior we may suppose that he kept all 250 of his. Now I've argued all along that the "350" and "250" were not subject to gamesmanship---they are dictated by the nature of actual ballots, and the reason Franken's number is yea-higher is what's been said all along about more "vulnerable voters" being Democratic. Thus we should project that Coleman from his 250 has the same rate of success as Franken had from his 350, not his "151". So we get:
Projected Coleman new-vote gains = 250 * (62/350) = 44
That would mean he needs to knock out 54 votes originally ruled for Franken, perhaps including some double-wins from flips. If he were able to sustain Franken's 32/264 rate, he'd expect to do that within
54*264/32 = 446 challenges.
But all we can suppose is that Coleman has 264 challenges that are as good as the 264 challenges Franken kept. So we can parse Coleman's 1000-odd stack of challenges as follows:
() 250 no-vote challenges, winning 44
() 264 vote challenges, winning 32
() 500-ddo "frivolescent" challenges, from which he needs to net win 22.
Well, 22 from 500 means that the average such challenge needs to be a "five-percenter" as the Brits would say. If I was right here that "5%-er" was Franken's threshold for withdrawing a challenge, then Coleman shouldn't get there. But it's (of course!) damn close...and probably dwarfed by the rejected-absentee and maybe even by the duplicate-ballot issues...
Ah! while linking my "5%", saw Nate's new post---including that my "415" includes two-dozen Coleman challenges that wormed their way into Franken's pile, skewing my figures (only?) a little. I'll post this now, and then re-cogitate from Nate's figures...of course Nate re-emphasized the other-factors point I was originally emphasizing from Nate to begin with :-).
WV "rallyamo": let's rally the ammo against those Coleman challenges!
uris said...
In Bush v. Gore the majority (Rehnquist?) stated that the results of that case were sui generis
That was in the "per curiam" opinion. The "per curiam" heading was an impropriety: it means "by the [whole] court" and is only for unanimous decisions, typically when there is not only no dissent but also not much of an issue. We "know" that the per-curiam opinion was by either O'Connor or Kennedy, but neither would put their name to that piece of shit.
The Rehnquist opinion (joined by Scalia and Thomas) was the one saying screw the intent of the voters, the mechanical count should have a presumptive finality. Ironically, by that standard, GORE WON in the Supreme Court! You see, O'Connor and Kennedy neglected to indicate which way they voted, so by the mechanical count, Gore had four Justices to Bush's three (why should the votes of those two count, if they were "too dumb" to remember to sign? isn't that the Republican argument?)
washerdreyer said...
The Court's presumption that Florida did not want to violate the safe harbor provision of the Electoral Count Act no matter what is not in any sense a state mandated deadline.
The FL SC had a footnote that it would be better to get the recount done before the "safe harbor" date (Congress will not re-examine results finalized before that date, but will scrutinize late recounts like Hawaii 1960). SCOTUS turned this into: the state mandates that the WRONG result be unchallengeable, rather than getting the result RIGHT but late. There was no possible justification for this.
"Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...
Peter's got a good point. State Supreme Courts tend to be much more consensus driven and less idealogically split than the SCOTUS, in my experience (there are exceptions in states that elect the Supremes, but I don't think Minn is one of those)."
MN Supremes are elected by the public to six-year terms. They run without party designation, and the average voter is unlikely to know anything about his or her candidate beyond the name and incumbency status listed on the ballot.
So while MN is "one of those" states which elect Supreme Court justices, it is not "one of those" states where this is likely to play a role in SCt decisions.
wv = smazing
'Smazing how much work goes into a U.S. Senate race recount.
@ green libertarian:
Here in Fla, the law for provisional ballots is that once the envelope is opened, the vote MUST be counted. That way, you can't change your mind after seeing what the vote is. I assume the law is the same for absentees, and that a simular law exinsts in MN.
Nate,
You missed a vital point:
SCOTUS, in Bush v Gore, specifically excluded its use as a precedent in any case, ever!
The "per curiam" heading was an impropriety: it means "by the [whole] court" and is only for unanimous decisions.
Sorry, that's incorrect. It simply means "for the court" and is perfectly appropriate to use for a majority, i.e., non-unanimous, decision. When a majority has decided something, that is the "court" deciding it.
SCOTUS, in Bush v Gore, specifically excluded its use as a precedent in any case, ever!
As stated by many commenters above, that's incorrect. SCOTUS did not say that.
I've figured out the big ???, i.e. step 2.
Even per Franken's own count, he said that based on the rulings of the election judges, he'd be up by 4 votes.
Coleman, while delaying the absentee ballots in court is ALSO gaming the system. He actually forced the canvassing board to start the ballot review half a day late because he said he was going to pare down his challenges to about 1,000 but didn't get them in until the last minute Monday night.
Because Franken already had his pile in the canvassing board's hands, the canvassing board reviewed Franken's challenges first. I submit this was an intentional move by the Coleman campaign evidenced by the fact that they opted to add 200 more ballots in when they saw how the canvassing board was ruling on certain issues. In short, they delayed THAT part of it to obtain the tactical advantage of knowing what ballots to challenge to give them the maximum hopes of winnowing that +4 Franken estimate down so that it ends up with Coleman in the lead, even if that lead is only a vote or two.
Then IF Coleman can successfully get the Supreme Court to say, well, these will be challenged anyway after the election is certified, then it's no longer a matter of winning the certified election for Franken, it's a matter of getting a certified election overturned in court.
And not that he couldn't do it, but it will affect his legitimacy in the view of the public. The one thing Coleman has been doing all along, from declaring victory the morning after the election, to spreading lies about ballots being found in someone's trunk, to questioning the very existence of some ballots which mysteriously went missing, is waging a PR war to foster anger at Franken (for costing the taxpayers money by insisting on a recount, for trying to manufacture votes or double count votes, or add votes that are not legal into the system).
He can then step up public pressure on Franken to make it look like he's trying to steal an election that has already been certified for Coleman. Never mind if the gambit will work in the end, this is politics.
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