12.15.2008

Bayh's Blue Dogs: Bane or Boon?

From Roll Call comes the relatively unsurprising news that Indiana Democrat Evan Bayh is attempting to form a "Blue Dog" coalition in the Senate, one which would mirror the one that Democrats already have in the House. This group will presumably include some of the swing senators that I described last week, folks like Ben Nelson, Mark Pryor and Mary Landireu.

The practical upshot of something like this -- apart from making Bayh one of the ten most powerful people in Washington -- is that the Democrats in the Blue Dog coalition would presumably tend to vote as a group rather than individuals. That is the whole point of a coalition; if a coalition's members are not voting together, it really isn't serving any purpose. Let's say that there are seven Democrats in the Blue Dog group. In theory, this means that instead of having anywhere between zero and seven votes on a particular bill (but most commonly some in-between number like two, three or four), Barack Obama would tend to get either get exactly seven votes or exactly zero. Would this behavior be helpful or harmful to his agenda?

I would argue that it might be helpful, simply because of where the numbers tend to stand in the Senate right now. The Democrats will wind up with somewhere between 57 and 59 memebers in their caucus, depending on the resolution of Illinois and Minnesota. That means they will need somewhere between one and three Republican votes to break fillibusters -- and so every vote on the margin will tend to matter a great deal; he'll already need to achieve near-unanimity among Democrats. If Obama loses, say, three Democratic votes, then reaching a 60-vote threshold is already liable to be relatively difficult for him, and so losing seven Democratic votes instead might not matter very much. On the other hand, if Bayh can whip Mary Landrieu's or Ben Nelson's vote for him on a particular issue, that could potentially be pretty helpful. (If the Democrats had, say, 62 votes instead rather than 57-59, the reverse dynamic might manifest itself).

That’s the theory, anyway. In practice, coalitions like this are rarely successful in the Senate. Does, say, Mark Warner or Ben Nelson in increase his influence by partnering with Bayh? Quite possibly not, and thereby group discipline is hard to facilitate.

49 comments

Juris said...

Mary Landireu? Check spelling

Michael (mbw) said...

This time your game theoretic argument makes sense. That's because here the subtle second-order isn't going opposite to an obvious first order effect, like having more votes to begin with.

Juris said...

"Does, say, Mark Warner or Ben Nelson in increase . . ." Remove "in" before "increase".

Mark said...

Interesting news. However, I'm not sure it will work. Several conservative Democrats in the Senate don't share Bayh's stance on issues like foreign policy, and I'm not sure what they have to gain by buddying up with a guy they don't completely agree with.

EV: resto: What I wish the right-wingers would give the whole Obama real estate/governor "scandal".

peter said...

I'd argue that if there are about seven blue dogs and if they all toe their coalition's line, then if Obama is to lose their votes, he will already have lost at least four, therefore basically losing his ability to pass the bill without major bipartisan support anyway.

roi said...

There is one other benefit you forgot to mention. Negotiation with one group is much easier than with seven senators. This is due to technical reasons, but also substansive ones. The group could help reconcile conflicting demands and priorities between the swing senators, thus avoiding the frustration of hashing a compromise with one swing senator, only to have it overruled by another swing senator.

This is also the reason why retaining group cohesion would be more useful to the senators than it seems. Assuming they want to influence the agenda, and not just increase their personal stature or prevent measures from passing, working as a group will better their chances of influencing legislation rather than just block it. This might also work to their personal benefit: they could show voters they pushed through useful measures.

Vinny said...

So basically, Evan Bayh is hell bent on single-handedly trying to wreck Obama's agenda?

What a fuckhead. Fuck off, Bayh, we don't want a Blue dog coalition in the Senate, so crawl back into your hole with your butt buddy Lieberputz.

Dr. Matt said...

With democrats back in power, this type of group was somewhat inevitable.

I think this is a good thing for Democrats that it's Bayh at the helm, a senate veteran with moderate instincts and a good relationship with Obama.

If it were Backus, Lincoln, Tester (who voted AGAINST the bailout last week), or one of the freshman senators, I'd be a little more worried about it being a power play and a legislative problem.

the commonwealth said...

In a post about the likelihood of senators to follow one another in a vote, "memebers" seems a fitting, if unintentional, pun. Even in your mistakes you impress, Nate.

Jon said...

Nicely said Vinny.
Those Blue Dogs in the House are a disastor. We need to to purge them.

holy crapo said...

Wow if I were Bayh reading the ass Vinny's comment (not to mention his fellow ass Jon's one) I would just vote against Assbama all the time now just out of spite. Ye arses I would!

BostonKid said...

It's so sad that our representation is so silly, that it is held hostages by clicks...I have an idea, these people should vote for what they believe is best for their contituents, no more, no less, but certainly not becasue their den leader thinks it's right to do...It's sickening on all sides...Welcome back to high school, kids...Meanwhile, our country is almost bankrupt...

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

While the name Blue Dogs is unfortunate (because the House version is not exactly a model I'd want to follow), I suspect the Senate version would not be as problematic. Bayh is his father's (Birch) son, with pragmatic, moderate tendencies on most things and a squeaky clean image. He also understands how DC works and has been known as someone willing to work across the aisle at both the state and Federal level. He's not suddenly going to become a demagogue looking to hijack the agenda.

I suspect Bayh is basically trying to make his existing role more obvious to raise his profile. He's been toying with a Presidential run for at least 5 years now (Obama scared him off this time), has been short listed for VP twice and is well known in the power circles of the DNC. At the same time, he's still a blank page to most Americans. He basically has been so good at keeping his image clean that most people have no clue who he is - despite the fact he's been in DC for a decade as a Senator and was a 2 term governor of Indiana. That has to burn a bit.

Juris said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Juris said...

Bayh must figure he earned some creds with Obama by helping Obama to win Indiana in November. So this Blue Dog thing is either a continuation of that role, designed to help Obama to organize otherwise possibly more recalcitrant Democrats in the Senate behind a relatively more progressive program than they'd otherwise be inclined to support; OR it's a way for Bayh to further build up credits for the benefit of his home state folks, also raising his own profile for future consideration.

wv: butche (you don't wanna go there)

Vinny said...

Normally I wouldn't assume Bayh was trying to wreck Obama's agenda, but this is the same guy that DEFENDED Lieberman. Something is up with him.

Spam210wal said...

Vinny:

Watch Bayh DESTROY Lieberman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzr9BCttZ6M

After the election was over, even Obama wanted Lieberman to be forgiven, so he can hardly be faulted for that.

ShadowGunman said...

mn mn mn mn, guve us analysis of mn,wasting all that brain power on Bayh is wrong. Come on we've been pacient...

Alpha.dk said...

@ShadowGunman

MN has nothing to report yet :-) Canvassing is scheduled to start Dec. 16, at least per the Dec. 12 meeting.

All the patience in the world won't make bureaucracy move quickly, unfortunately.

IslandLiberal said...

Normally I wouldn't assume Bayh was trying to wreck Obama's agenda, but this is the same guy that DEFENDED Lieberman. Something is up with him.

Obama himself put out the call to forgive Joe, so Bayh was, if anything, carrying out Obama's will there.

As to the coalition, I think it's a good idea; if it's made out of the sort of people who'd be problem votes individually, getting them all in one group where a single inclusive deal can be struck is beneficial to passing legislation.

Cugel said...

The truth is that 60 votes is the "threshold" only because of horrible weak-kneed trembling and outright cowardice among Senate Dem. leadership.

Most of the "holds" are by Republican Senators who would NEVER actually be able to sustain a real filibuster.

Let the bastards try and filibuster and then get Obama and Senate Dems. on national TV denouncing them every few hours and demanding "an end to obstruction."

Break them! Wear them down over several days and then get a straight up or down vote.

The problem is that Republicans have no fears about being totally partisan, but for some feeble reason, Dems. are cowards who won't fight for their beliefs. It's all totally ONE-SIDED!

If Reid had any real courage he'd tell Republicans "If you want to filibuster, go ahead. I'll crush you like a grape in a wine-press. You better make sure you're ready to go to the mattresses every damn time before you cross me! Go ahead and try and filibuster and we'll see if you can last 2 days, three days, a week. I'll keep up the pressure until you crack!

No fucking comity! If you want to obstruct the desperately needed economic legislation, then we will have no mercy at all. You'll have to stand there for days at the rostrum and pee into a bag."

But, of course Reid hasn't got any guts so he'll rollover at the first sign of trouble and say "we don't have the votes."

The lying bastard! 51 votes is enough for anything in the Senate. Make Republicans get up and filibuster every time they want to block something and they'll quickly run out of steam. How long can they actually stand the pressure?

How many bills can they actually filibuster before they realize that they're not going to win on this.

Then there's the "Nuclear Option" Republicans were ready to pass back in 2005. If the bastards are really going to obstruct the bailout and other desperately needed measures, give them a taste of their own medicine!

"These vicious greedheads should be broken and driven across the land!"

-- Hunter S. Thompson

IslandLiberal said...

Please let's not start clamouring to end the filibuster; we are not going to be in the majority forever, and when we aren't, it's a valuable tool. If the Republicans had gotten rid of it in 2005, imagine where they'd be now? (though they'd have done a lot more damage on the way here)

susan said...

36 days to go and we're already worrying about some possible future filibuster? I'd agree that Bayh is doing this to raise his profile. The hourly/minutely pulse during the interim keeps us from doing something real.

Lately, for example, oil leases in Utah, birth control made equivalent to abortion and allowed to be denied, corporations can now take a tax loss by buying bankrupt companies (Section 382 finally went down in the bailout). While I realize there's not a whole lot we can do until those monsters are out of office, we can at least make noise about something that actually makes a difference.

Cugal, as usual, good stuff, BostonKid too.

susan said...

Cugel, sorry about misspelling your name!

Meanwhile, the dollar tanked this morning, but is recovering slightly.

shlickol (Cheney slick with oil buddies)

obsessed said...

cugel:If Reid had any real courage he'd tell Republicans "If you want to filibuster, go ahead. I'll crush you like a grape in a wine-press. You better make sure you're ready to go to the mattresses every damn time before you cross me! Go ahead and try and filibuster and we'll see if you can last 2 days, three days, a week. I'll keep up the pressure until you crack!

Yes!! Great comment!! Send it every senator. "Give 'em Hell Harry", as his website comically calls him, is the epitome of the "spineless democrat". We need real leadership in the senate and we need it NOW.

Chris said...

Personally, I think that, as a sum, it's a good idea. The main reason? The dynamics at play are slightly different in the Senate than in the House. Senators have better job security, and don't have to answer to their constituents every two years. The notable ones in this are the Montana senators - Tester doesn't come up for re-election until 2012, and Baucus just GOT re-elected, if I recall. (Actually, I think a LOT of the potential Blue Dogs are I or II seats.)

Of course, if this blows up in Bayh's face, he's going to look rather silly. I think a lot of it comes down to how they approach what their constituents want - Warner may be a bit more persuadable since he got swept in with a blue wave (and NOVA, as demonstrated this year, is pretty influential), but the job security issue cuts both ways. They don't have to pick up their states' "center" votes (which are often a bit right-wing) to hold on to their seats, but they also don't get immediately penalized if they're seen as kneecapping Democratic agendas needlessly.

Statler N Waldorf said...

I don't like the idea. The Blue Dogs have too much power within the party as it is. I also disagree with the idea of coalitions, because these Senators are supposed to be representing their constituents, not a movement within the party. For example, Mary Landrieu had better be voting in accord with what we want here in Louisiana instead of what Evan Bayh wants. Bayh didn't vote for her, we did, so we're the boss and not him.

One of the reasons why the Democrats are attractive to me as a party bis because of the lack of authoritarian elements within the party. While it is true that authoritarian leadership has made the GOP very effective in promoting the policies handed down by it's leaders, this kind of groupthink has utterly destroyed any real representation of the constituents they're supposed to be serving. It's one reason why the GOP has failed repeatedly to address the financial interests of the rural Midwest and Mountain West regions. A blue collar worker at steel plant in Gary or Lackawanna or a single-family owned farm in Casper should not be having to make decisions as to whether they should buy food or pay for home heating fuel during the wintertime, just because their Senators and Representatives are too preoccupied with preventing GLBT people from marrying and pressing the case for continued military involvement in the Middle East instead of helping these constituents avoid home foreclosure or going into default on credit cards they're using for staples. Your constituents have to come first, before party ideology or the ideology of a movement.

To destroy this and merely become a mimicry of the GOP recast from the Center-Left would be a repudiation of the constituencies these members are there to serve, a betrayal of their basic purpose.

I would oppose a liberal coalition for the same reason.

Opus 132 said...

@ Cugel

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

I've posted the same thoughts but not nearly as colorfully.

Make them filibuster until they drop.After one brutal experience like that,McConnell won't try it again.So one actual filibuster is all that will be needed.

King Politics said...

Not sure it will work. The Senate is much too independent compared to the House. Caucuses mean more in the House where individuals matter less. Conversely, in the Senate you only need an imbecile of one to wreck legislation. In other words, it's too easy to bolt from your caucus in the Senate.

Lucas said...

A couple of things:

1) Is this really a Blue Dog coalition or is it a Moderate coalition. There's a difference. Blue Dogs are REALLY big on balanced budgets and reducing the deficit. Also, they tend to be moderate to conservative on social issues. Those issues are their primary focus. To my knowledge, neither Evan Bayh nor Mary Landrieu are really big anti-deficit crusaders, which would suggest that they are Blue Dogs in name only.

2)I don't agree that the existence of coalitions decreases the chance of politicians voting with constituents. Afterall, parties themselves are coalitions. The function of the whip in both parties is to twist arms and get votes. In reality, it is the party system that forces politicians to vote against their constituents. I would guess that many of the constituents in Blue Dog districts/states have more in common with the Blue Dog line than the Democrat line on issues.

moondancer said...

I struggle with whats worse, a Bayh led pack of blue dogs or the panty-waist majority leader cheering him on....

Refractor said...

The last thing Senate Democrats need is a sub-party challenging their all-too-frequently undisciplined majority as a whole. The Blue Dogs in the House try to prevent liberal legislation by threatening to oppose it as a block, negotiating to assure as much Republican Lite legislation as possible, and there is every reason to expect the same in the Senate. If Sen. Bayh doesn't want to be a Democrat, he should change parties.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Lucas,

Well, I dunno about #2 there. Landrieu voted against the Wall Street Bailout (so did Vitter), even though her party (and his) were pushing hard for it, without the existence of a Blue Dog Coalition. The party whip couldn't get either of them to change their minds because so many of us (including myself) called them 2 or 3 times a day to remind them that we had the power to end their employment if they chose to ignore us.

Landrieu often tries to navigate a middle ground between her party and her constituents; earlier this year she voted for a compromise bill that allowed for off-shore drilling and development of green energy alternatives. I would have preferred for her to vote for the party line on that one and ditch the drilling, but Louisiana is a gas-and-oil state. Trying to convince those RCA's out in the bayou country to vote for green energy is not so easy when alot of them work for Haliburton. She had to strike a balance between the Party (and NOLA liberals like myself) and the local employment base for much of the coastal part of our state.

So I dunno how effective the Democratic Party whip is. Clearly, the Repugnants move in lock-step except for a few that have been around for twenty years and can afford to tell the party leadership to fuck off. But the Democrats are more like a herd of cats. And you know something? I prefer cats to lemmings any day.

A coalition threatens the catitiude of the party by creating yet another layer of authority in a party that represents those who consistently get screwed by the authority, and therefore resent it. While Repugnants talk a good fight about how much they despise government, they sure do submit to it without a word of protest when that same government tells them they need to worry more about flag-burning than jobs. Democrats are notoriously harder to control. Want proof? Watch the first time Obama does something that annoys the liberals in his party. I guarantee we'll be out there with signs and demonstrations right in front of the White House. When Bush annoyed the religious conservatives (say, on the stem-cell compromise), you never heard a peep from them. But you will hear some shit from us, I guarantee that.

So no, this Blue Dog Coalition isn't going to serve Louisianans better. We demand fealty from Landrieu, and she delivers, without any BDC to make her. The party whip might get her to meet him half-way, but not if it riles her base back home. Evan Bayh is a good man, and he represents Indiana well. But Landrieu takes her marching orders from here, not Indianapolis. She's ours, and she's not for sale.

David said...

If a Senator or Congressman votes in line with a coalition, be it blue dogs or political party, he or she is not doing the job they were elected to do.

Represent the people of their district.

Elected officials that do this should be removed from office on the ground of incompetence and dereliction of duty.

Unrepentent Whitlamite said...

Bayh, according to Voteview, isn't all THAT conservative; he's two spots above Lieberman and more liberal than Mikulski or Levin. He could end up being the most liberal one in the coalition.

So who will join? Nelson, Landrieu, Johnson and Pryor seem obvious; maybe Webb, maybe Tester and Baucus, possibly Warner. If Nate's 'block voting' theory proves correct, this faction would be a GREAT way to quarantine Lieberman. Keep him outside the party mainstream yet bound to walk in step with other, mostly party-line Democrats.

judas_priest said...

David,

The best refutation of your position that a representative should mirror the wishes of the constiuency was given more than 230 years ago by the British MP Edmund Burke, to the elctors of Bristol:

Certainly, gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

Also worth reading: His speech aboutr reconcilation with the colonies (1775).

wv=asterche
a fall flower named after ernesto guevara

Tokar said...

Good post and good read. Thanks.

Statler N Waldorf said...

In refutation to Edmund Burke:

The underpinning of his argument is the belief that an MP is a 'trust from Providence', which mirrors the belief int he Divine Right of Kings prevalent in Europe and particularly England at the time. This is a principle we rebelled against during the Revolution. We are a nation which recognizes no king, and does not believe that those who govern do so from Divine Providence; were it so, then even the worst dictators of history could also be said to have the seal of the divine, and clearly they do not. Should we claim that Stalin ruled by he Will of God?

No, our representatives in Congress and the Senate are not Gods or Divine Messengers, they are human beings: flawed, frequently moreso than average. Their purpose is not to prophesy, but to exert the will of the electorate. This is not a theocracy or a monarchy. Ours is a system, to quote Huey Long, 'in which every man a king, and every home a castle' is our Magna Carta.

We are not a mere derivation of 18th century England. We are different, and proudly so. No American should have to regard their leaders as superior to themselves, but rather as having been chosen to voice the popular will, and otherwise to shut the hell up.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité, with love from the former French (not British) North America.

Nick Wright said...

Yes, let's be more conservative, since that did so well on election day.

Idiots.

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KO said...

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徵信 said...

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