11.04.2008

What Will We Know by 7 PM?

Andrew Gelman of Columbia University has taken a recent set of our simulations to look at what may happen conditional on the outcomes of the first states to close their polls at 6 and 7 PM. The bottom line? If those states go roughly as expected (meaning, say, an Obama win in Virginia and a close race in Indiana), we can conclude with almost literal 100 percent certainty that Obama will win the election:

Now, what if the vote margin in Virginia, Indiana, Georgia, South Carolina, and Kentucky were to equal the expected -5.7%? We pipe this assumption through our model by calculating, for each of our 10,000 simulations, the average vote margin in these five states, and then restricting our analysis to the subset of simulations for which this vote margin is within 1 percentage point of its expected value (that is, between -6.7% and -4.7%). Out of our 10,000 simulations, 2800 fall in this range; that is, we predict there is a 28% chance that McCain’s average vote margin in these five states will be between 4.7% and 6.7%. What is of more interest is what happens if this occurs. Considering this subset of simulations, Obama’s expected national popular vote margin is +4.7%, his expected electoral vote total is 343, and the conditional probability of an Obama victory is 100%: he wins the electoral college in all 2800 simulations in this condition.
Andrew's full paper can be found here. (And don't forget to buy his book).

288 comments

Lior.K said...

*Warning* This is a spoof. I have no information about the Republican candidate for VP, and all this was cooked in my sick brain while taking a shower *End warning*

We weren't given the full story abour Ms. Palin's sports history and her nickname. Fact is, she started out in Gymnastics, and wasn't too good at it, at least according to her coach. For nearly every performance she got "I bet you could have done this better"- kinda frustrating, isn't it? At any rate, the nickname stuck...

wv: Betchacoulda. An aquatic version of a pitbull, though unable to swim for long enough.

stayathomedad said...

This article makes me think of the Flaming Moe Simpsons episode.

"Brace yourselves gentlemen. According to the gas chromatograph the secret ingrediant is...love?!? Who's been screwing with this thing?"

Charles Crook said...

"Would that happen again tonight?"

The primary didn't have early voting.
Marion County ( Indianapolis ) polls will close at 6 while Lake County won't close until 7.

Scott said...

Dale Petrie said...
:Will you consider posting any "Ratherisms" you hear tonight?

You mean like "McCain has the same chance as a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest?"

wv pranks. Only Sarah Palin and Paris Hilton cannot spot pranks.

RocketRay said...

My wife and I make $270,000 per year combined. Let's assume we don't have deducations and instead take the standard deduction, $7000. Then we take personal exemption of about $3000. Our adjusted gross income would be $260,000.00.

The top tax rate of 36% would be going up to 39.6%. That means every dollar over $250,000 would be taxed an additional 3.6 cents, so we're looking at a tax increase of $360/year.


You and your fancy "math". I'm voting for McCain cause he says Obama's raising my taxes! ;)

wv: nobia. As in, I actually voted for the nobian.

Becky Sharp said...

election night won't be election night until bex and assmole show up

supped: duh

lars said...

Arrrghhh!

Luke Russert was just back spewing on MSNBC again.
Not only is he an obvious poster boy for nepotism, but it's soooo blatant that he is just reading, poorly, off of a teleprompter. He just referred to "young folks" at least 4 times in his last 30 spiel.

gag.

TomA said...

Mule Rider and PeteKent:

Ha! I suppose you are doing a service by showing us all how empty your opposition to Obama is. If you were sincere then I would just point out that any time Obama has referred to folks making more than 250K or "well-off" he has generally said something along the lines of "like *me* and my opponent in this race" --- Not exactly incitement to class warfare, now is it?

But, hey, you just go on pumping your baseless hate into the public square -- giving it voice is the surest way to reveal it for what it is.

Bush Whacked said...

I work in Wall Street. You'd be surprised how many liberals there are here who are voting for Obama and will see their taxes go up. Many successful folks care about things other than their own self interest.

The amazing thing is that Republicans have convinced hard working folks like my brother to vote against their own economic interest for so many years. The concentration of wealth in the top 2% is greater than it has been since 1929. They voted for Bush and I got wealthier.

Looks like the use of wedge issues and the hate and fear we see spewed in the campaign and on this board no longer work to pull the wool over their eyes.

PeteKent said...

Big turnout is great for America. A new class of voters has been created. Born Democrats, but no oen should take them for granted.

NEWS FLASH: Fox News Reporting Underperformance in AA precincts in NC and efforts are underway to goose turnout; news for Obama is better in MO and IN.

McCain in a squeaker? Loses PV, but wins 271 EVs?

nge2101 said...

Some commenter left something about the "bottom falling out" of the internal polls for Obama in PA. Anyone know about this?

gougef said...

Anyone else here have HDNet?

PeixeGato said...

@lars

You mean he didn't get hired solely on the basis of his ability and merit? How could this be???

rodrett said...

I really liked Tim Russert but Luke not so much. No offense Luke but maybe NBC should consider other talent for the position.

Charles Crook said...

HDNet is on Directv's HD package...

CloudyFuture said...

Joel said...
I want to see a cage match:

PeteKent vs. PeteKent sockpuppet vs. Macho Man Randy Savage.
++++++++++++

make it a hell in the cell match and I paid to see that....

Aunt Karen said...

HDNet, yes, I have it, I'll be watching!

Bush Whacked said...

I have HDNet and will be watching the returns with Nate.

I will flip over to Faux News to watch their heads explode.

RWD said...

"Fox News Reporting Underperformance in AA precincts in NC and efforts are underway to goose turnout;"

That's because AAs overpeformed so strongly in the early voting. 2.5 million votes cast early...

rodrett said...

Anybody hear from petekent? He must be molesting his chihuahua.

RWD said...

"news for Obama is better in MO and IN"

No early voting in Mo, so that makes sense...

djl said...

MSNBC doing a live shot and a talkback from England?

What the hell? Couldn't they have sent Luke Russert over there somewhere? I guess maybe the UK has an "uh" and "um" limit for on-air talent.

Mason said...

The free market will have failed and failed miserably because of gross government intervention.

How cute. You still believe that the Invisible Hand will reach out, touch you, and solve all your problems. What happens when a select few figure out how to control the Hand, and use it to pick your pockets? That's what's been going on, and that's what proper regulation can quash.

And which plan, other than the RITC is "spread the wealth around"y? Are you calling Reagan a Socialist?

Ken said...

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

Massachusetts is expecting record turnout. A blue state getting even bluer. According to boston.com, the web version of the Boston Globe

Obama is an historical force for change.

Push up that national popular vote.


That's where I am (MA). Co-workers who went this morning were talking about long lines. I'm guessing evening lines as well because of how many of us commute from the suburbs into Boston.

wv: tusiffed - having done a 30 second preening job on one's hair to give it the proper lift before a TV appearance. (Hannity, Olbermann, et al)

CloudyFuture said...

sorry N00b question....Whats an AA and why is high turn out bad or good for the candiates?

David said...

rodrett: "Anybody hear from petekent? He must be molesting his chihuahua."

Exit polling of the chihuahua revealed deep disappointment.....

Charles Crook said...

Looks like Directv replaced HDNet on their Octo-channel with BBC America.

PeteKent said...

If we are only getting $360 outta that guy, how are we going to write all those checks? Will there be fewer checks or will more people pay more?

If Obama raises taxes he will cause deeper recession. If he continues with check writing stimulus he will cause inflation.

His tolerance of an accomodationist monetary policy will only delay the day of reckoning and then the tea kettle will explode with 20% interest rates.

El Oso said...

@petekent

Look to the early vote numbers, my man.

73.9% of the TOTAL 2004 vote has already voted. 26.5% of that was from the black community.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It is Faux News, after all.

Garnett/136 said...

@Mule Rider/0424:

You say that Obamas plan, or the rhetoric used to support it, has "no regard as to how deserving or undeserving the people are" to receive the cuts. But aren't the vast majority of these cuts income/payroll tax cuts and conditional tax credits? If a person isn't contributing to society (in this case, drawing a salary) or paying for children's growth and development (in grade school or college), exactly what are they suckling? Exactly how are these kinds of credits indiscriminate between the deserved and the undeserved?

goatdan said...

That Free Republic article that someone else mentioned trying to bash the observations on this site are a hoot. My favorite comment:

"Real political scientists never rush to deconstruct or denounce anything."

What does that make them, as the entire article is a rushed statement to deconstruct and denounce the fact that everything points to an Obama win?

For some good yuks, the URL is http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2124541/posts

Don said...

MuleRider - I think the institutions of business Obama attacked were those with CEOs making tens of millions per year or more. Like Lehman, AIG, etc.

As for those people becoming negative in terms of not trying to make more money, yeah, right!

Like Gov. Palin "standing up to big oil" - raising royalties to about $20 per barrel and trying to open the whole of Alaska to drilling. I think big oil would see the benefit of higher royalties on a hundredfold increase in production.

Mulie: Start working tomorrow on Palin-Palin '12. "Nukyoulur war by 2014!"

Mason said...

McCain in a squeaker? Loses PV, but wins 271 EVs?

No. He won't win PA, and without PA, he can't win. Fullstop. EOL.

Bush Whacked said...

Anyone notice the Dow closed up 300 today and the S & P 500 was up over 4% to close above 1000. Traders sure are worried about a predicted Obama win.

El Oso said...

@cloudy

AA - African American

fullbodytransplant said...

Two hours and fourteen minutes until we see how real this is.

Obama-flavored eye candy to pass the time:

www.fullbodytransplant.wordpress.com

How ever shall we be able to NOT EXPLODE with anticipation while we wait?

We can phone bank just a few more calls!

Yes we can.

Charles Crook said...

Indianapolis Star's website is not going to last the night. It's already throwing 503 errors.

LOL.

CloudyFuture said...

love the election mix channel on directv complete with EV tracker in top right hand corner channel 352.....

PeteKent said...

rwd:

I am thinking like you that Obama shot his wad in the early voing and all that's left is mopping up and making room for Republicans to vote.

I think Obama lost NC by signalling his win. VA is under tighter wraps and will more likely go to him. 90,000 in Manaassass!

Mason said...

MR-

Stop being a whiny bitch. My god, you sound like a conservative trying to imitate a liberal. It's kinda weird.

tylerxdurden said...

>> garnett/136 said...
>> @Kent/Typekey: Unemployed? I'm not following.

Fear mongering. ;) They'll be fine. In fact, in the wash, they'll be just as fine under Dem government as they would under Repub. As a bonus they won't have to hire as many goons to keep the poor people away from their gates. The rising tide will lift all boats, even the yatchs.

Anyway, I'm think Karl Rove + NC + one of ND or MT = 356. AZ, MS, LA, and especially GA will be very close to break throughs (check back in 2012 for those) but they won't quite close the deal. However GA will be so close and dirty enough that it'll put a federal voting guidelines package firmly on the agenda for Obama and the Dem Congress, and it'll have enough public backing to get it through for 2010...which is going to be one wild year of elections.

El Oso said...

Sitting at work... It's 10:49a.m. on Wednesday here in New Zealand.

I wish I actually had some work to keep me busy!

CloudyFuture said...

El Oso said...
@cloudy

AA - African American
++++++++++++++++++++

doh....thanks for answering....got to many acronyms in my head from working in the fed govt and MMO online games....

RWD said...

that's not really "shooting his wad" tho pete. the votes still count either way.

you are sounding like a dem from 2004...o good, my voters are showing up to the polls...too bad your opponents voters have already voted.

gougef said...

djl said...

MSNBC doing a live shot and a talkback from England?

What the hell? Couldn't they have sent Luke Russert over there somewhere? I guess maybe the UK has an "uh" and "um" limit for on-air talent.
------------------------------------

Luke has trouble with "real" English.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

When we get the good news tonight, I want you all to thank mule rider. Without his constant provocation, I wouldn't have picked up the phone today to contact Obama supporters in MO.

Without PeteKent, I wouldn't have donated that last $150.00 to the campaign.

Without a variety of conservatrolls, I wouldn't have financially contributed to the efforts to defeat Prop 8.

So, let's remember to give credit where credit is due, and hold in our thoughts (and prayers if thats what you do) those who kept the impetus to act fresh.

windsurfer_2003 said...

How can any McCain supporter complain that Obama is not a uniter? McCain and Palin rallies are hate mobs. McCain and Palin have sought to win by dividing the nation with fear and lies. They will never unite it.

El Oso said...

MR said:
"So what if a tax cut from Obama - or insert generic Democrat - yields him an extra $300, $500, or so a year. What is that, like somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 to $50 per month? Big freaking whoop."


To some people that's a BIG deal. Maybe not for you, but for people who say "if I just had an extra $50 a month I could make do" it's a godsend.

YOU obviously don't understand

AstoundingMalevolence said...

Looking at the Dixville Notch and Hart's Location numbers, there are some interesting facts, even if this is based on such a small sample.

In DH, when compared to the Primary results, it looks like Obama got at least one vote from someone who voted Republican in the primary. 10 people voted in the Democratic primary and 7 voted in the Republican primary, with four abstaining. Assuming that all 10 who voted in democratic primary voted for Obama and the four who abstained voted for Obama, that means one person who voted in Republican primary voted for Obama.

In HL, 16 people voted in the Republican primary and 13 in the democratic and no one abstaining. But Obama got 17 votes, so four people who voted in the Republican primary voted for Obama. In addition, all the Clinton voters seemingly voted for Obama.

Ran said...

I just got polled by Rasmussen!

All the usual questions, it looks like, including whether I've voted (and whether I voted today or earlier). I loved mashing the buttons on "VERY FAVORABLE" for Obama and Biden and "VERY UNFAVORABLE" on McCain and Palin.

I fall into a demo that might usually be considered to lean Republican (mid-40s, Caucasian, household income over $100K), so I hope I skew their models a smidge. :)

Real Joe said...

new thread

juliephx said...

You can't determine whether you will be better off financially by just looking at tax cuts and tax rates. For example, if our economy is losing jobs, we are also losing contributions to our GNP and to our tax base. An unemployed person doesn't care what the tax rates are.

You have to consider who you think will have the BEST overall impact on the economy. When the economy is growing, it enriches most of us much more than tax cuts can.

Take a look at this NYTimes article showing how a $10,000 investment grows based on S&P under the last 40-yr of Republican presidents v. the last 40 yr of Dem presidents. You may be surprised.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/10/14/opinion/20081014_OPCHART.html

Few of us can prosper in a vacuum. It is easier when we all prosper, plus a hell of a lot more fun.

PeteKent said...

Nice panel on CNN: Brazile and Castellannos.

Brazile spoke of thinking of her ancestors. How powerful! She noted now that you can say to any child: "Look at Obama. Anything is possible!" What could be better for us?

It might just be worth the economic price we will pay under Obama and the backward steps that liberty may take on the world stage.

From this will be borne a pluralistic nation, truly and better prepared to lead the World out of its inequity.

CNN UPDATE; EXIT POLLS RESULTS COMING

goatdan said...

Wow, that Free Republic article just gets more and more fun the more I read. There is another 538 section detailing why if McCain wins Pennsylvania, he wins a whole bunch either.

Favorite quote from this section: "The Electoral College is not a game of geographical Risk."

O RLY?

It then takes the leap of faith that states move in groups, but then somehow draws the conclusion that while states near each other move together, a red Pennsylvania also ensures a red Montana and Indiana. Since they are all so close to one another geographically, and all.

Oh, and it claims that McCain then has a chance at Minessota, which must have been his word verification when he wrote the article, as that's a pretty bad misspelling.

At this point, tomorrow can't come soon enough!

PeteKent said...

MCain ca lose 16 of the Buah EVs -- NH and NM and no more. Technically he does not need PA, but all the rest.

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

@ ken

I loved voting in MA back in the day. The election officials took it more seriously than they do here. IMHO

SP said...

Good lord, CNN's been teasing with their exit polling for at least 30 minutes now. I'm going to take a nice long walk so I don't have to listen to all the blathering right now. That way, I can come back and stare at the TeeVee screen until my eyeballs explode.

cloud9ine said...

I can understand Nate's methods being heuristic, but a Prof at Columbia also using heuristic methods?

Jeff said...

Nate et al: It has been a pleasure watching the site during this election season. Great Work! Here is to hoping your analysis proves correct. Cheers!

cb said...

Thank you for a wonderful ride, Nate.

After the election, you need to go get a tan.

My husband and I earn enough for tax increase if O wins, and we both voted for him.

We want him to represent our country to the world. Most people of the world think we suck after 'w' took over.

faccupl: factual data people show that Obama should win.

MysticLaker said...

can cnn please stop the music. what the f is going on?

PeteKent said...

Jack Cafferty is second only to Olbermann in snarkiness. Alfleck nailed him in SNL, my best belly laugh in a year. bathtub boy was very sedate last night, self-conscious even.

I like Lou Dobbs except he overdoes it on Border Security.

O'Reilly is too full of himself.

Hannity is the happy warrior.

Hume is the Man of Truth.

Barone is the master of the precinct; Cnn has the coolest map

HERE COME THE CNN EXIT POLLS!

STepper said...

beyondcomedy said...
Early exit polls in Colorado show Obama and Udall winning 100% of the vote. The polling methodology should be considered strong as I asked 100% of everyone in my car (that would be me) who they voted for. Please feel free to integrate this polls results into your model.

November 4, 2008 3:31 PM


Surprised you didn't pull a Sarah Palin and refuse to respond to your question.

[oxibarm - What Pete Kent copulates with]

Blame said...

Shame that Dem Senate ain't going to quite reach 60 this time. I guess there are only so many Udals.


Limens - product of lemon\lime misgeneration. Probably be president some day.

Mason said...

MCain ca lose 16 of the Buah EVs -- NH and NM and no more. Technically he does not need PA, but all the rest.

NM is already gone, as is CO, NV, and probably NH, as well.

Try again.

MysticLaker said...

Iraq as 10% is great news for John McCain!!1

Mason said...

So you're saying the rampant deregulation of the past 15 years has had nothing to do with it? That the combination of investment banks and commercial or retail banks had nothing to do with it?


You must be a "Reaganite". Who by your definition was a socialist.

PeteKent said...

Oh, count IA as a McCain loss. Can he still lose CO and NM? Or Nev? Only 2 of three?

And, yes, thanks to NATE AND SEAN for hosting. And not interfering. I think our self-selection worked well all in all. We lost a bit of our vibrancy, but we maintained our own sort of Democracy Wall.

SuaveDave said...

Mule Rider said...
"Obama HAS and WILL CONTINUE to divide this country."

Oh sure... right on, Einstein. Like YOUR idiotic rhetoric will bring us all together. Oh wait... that's not what you really want, is it?

Another Q: How does it feel inside after you post one of your hater rants? All warm and fuzzy?

;o)

MysticLaker said...

62% most importan on the economy is great news for John McCain.

nge2101 said...

Posted this earlier. Poster Dave says Obama GOtV workers are being directed from OH to PA because the "bottom fell out of the internal polls" there and it is within the margin of error. Has anyone heard about this?

Freaking out, for a few more hours.

Mason said...

I know that the perfect free market doesn't exist because information is imperfect. That's where governemtnt has to step in. Prevent gaming of of markets and such.

Unless you're either pro-gaming of markets, or you think that perfect information exists.

(It's the latter wasn't it?)

chrish60 said...

Just in: latest McCain internal polling results:

PA: MCCAIN 52%, Obama 40%, Undecided 6%

NJ: Obama 47%, McCain 45%, Undecided 7%

MI: McCain 45%, Obama 44%, Undecided 7%

VA: McCain 53%, Obama 42%, Undecided 3%

CO: McCain 50%, Obama 44%, Undecided 4%

MO: McCain 49%, Obama 42%, Undecided 7%

FL: McCain 52%, Obama 44%, Undecided 3%



WTF!?

Oh. Wait. That's what Free Republic is reporting. Never mind.

Yonatan Zunger said...

I don't really trust this analysis. The main Monte Carlo is running each state as an independent event; the proper way to analyze confirmed knowledge of one state would be to re-run the MC with those states held fixed.

To give a simple example, say that one state did something really unexpected, an event that happened in only one of the 10,000 cases. That doesn't give us 100% likelihood that the remaining 49 states will do exactly what that one MC run did.

Mason said...

Oh, count IA as a McCain loss. Can he still lose CO and NM? Or Nev? Only 2 of three?

Stop ignoring early voting. McCain has already lost, CO, NM, NV. The first two would win and the third offsets NH.

brittanielovessparky said...

I hate that candidates can win without having the popular vote. Some good links to find out why America even got involved with an Electoral College can be found here: http://blog.mindbites.com/life-and-learning/the-electoral-college-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

Debtpocalypse said...

When you do the math as suggested, you don't get -5.7%. You get -5.6%. Do it yourself. It's likely a rounding artifact, but it is sloppy, especially for this site.

MysticLaker said...

i smell landslide....holy shit.

Mason said...

I don't really trust this analysis. The main Monte Carlo is running each state as an independent event; the proper way to analyze confirmed knowledge of one state would be to re-run the MC with those states held fixed.

Put it in the FAQ.

Yonatan Zunger said...

Put it in the FAQ.

I don't think the FAQ is/should be user-editable. :)

FoneGuy said...

It would be interesting to host an interview with Nate AND Newt Gingrich....If you remember, Ole' Newt predicted a Republican Bloodbath...and went on to say: why, how and ramifications...two men of vision ?

John said...

@ jack

Networks are not prohibited from calling the election before the close of polls in the Pacific time zone. Not sure where you got that information, but it is false.

On the other hand, we all know if some combination of a close race in Indiana and wins in VA/FL/PA/NH combine, the race is over.

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Ron said...

Nate,

Spelling mistake "Electoral College" top left

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