11.01.2008

Today's Polls, 11/1

This is beginning to look like a five-state election. Those states are Virginia, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Nevada. Essentially all relevant electoral scenarios involve some combination of these five states.

I should caution that by far the most likely scenario is that Obama wins some relatively decisive victory of anywhere from 3-12 points in the popular vote. If Obama wins the popular vote by anything in this range, he will find plenty of blue territory, accumulating somewhere between 300-400 electoral votes. The electoral math will matter very little.

We can probably assume, however, that IF the national polls tighten significantly (and to reiterate, the likelihood is that they will NOT), McCain will edge out a victory in North Carolina, Florida, Indiana, North Dakota, Montana, Georgia, and Missouri; put those states in the McCain column for the time being. Likewise, New Mexico, New Hampshire, Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa all appear safe for Obama, even in the case of significant tightening. Put those in the Obama column.

That leaves our five states in play. The victory conditions for Obama involving these five states proceed something as follows:

1. Win Pennsylvania and ANY ONE of Colorado, Virginia, Ohio, or Nevada*
2. Win Ohio and EITHER Colorado OR Virginia.
3. Win Colorado AND Virginia AND Nevada.

(* Nevada produces a 269-269 tie, which would probably be resolved for Obama in the House of Represenatives.)

Now, suppose you think that Colorado is already in the bag for Obama because of his large edge in early voting there. We can then simplify the victory conditions as follows:

1. Win Pennsylvania
2. Win Ohio
3. Win Virginia AND Nevada

That's basically what it comes down to, although I'm sure each campaign would claim that there are a larger number of states in play.

*-*

Sorry to get off on such a tangent about this; I wanted to talk, for a change, about something other than whether the POLLS ARE TIGTHENING (!!!) or not. But as to that question, the evidence is again somewhat mixed. Contrary to other recent days, Obama gained ground in the national trackers on average, picking up points in Research 2000, Gallup and Rasmussen. The Zogby that Matt Drudge went on about turned out to be the only poll where he lost ground, while ABC/Post, IPD/TIPP and Hotline held steady.

However, our model does perceive about a point's worth of tightening in the state polls. And the Pennslyvania polls have probably tightened by more than one point, although it is important to note that the four polls that show the state in the mid- single digits (Rasmussen, Mason-Dixon, ARG and Strategic Vision) have all had Republican leans so far this cycle. Pennsylvania is still an extreme long shot for John McCain -- Obama is more likely to win Arizona than McCain the Keystone -- just not quite the long-shot that it had looked like a couple of days ago.

As a final word of warning, proceed cautiously with any polls that were in the field last night. Friday nights are difficult enough to poll, and holidays are difficult enough to poll, but when a Friday night coincides with a holiday (in this case, Halloween), getting an appropriate sample is all but impossible.


462 comments

InkStain said...

"Here are some of the factors that no model can really account for, and that is what keeps me up."

You forgot to add:

People who really love Barack Obama and have been campaigning for him all year suddenly decide they hate him and his entire GOTV effort decides to work for McCain instead when they hit the field.

Celestite said...

I am canvasing for Obama in Jefferson County in Colorado and the people that I have been talking to are not taking this election for granted. They either have already voted or they are certain that they will vote on Tuesday.
They are hopeful and excited but they are not complacent.

gougef said...

I, too, miss Tim Russert, 'cause right now he would be going:

Over.
Over.
Over.

No one else seems to have the balls that is left now.

tylerxdurden said...

>> turgidson said...
>> What's with the investors betting McCain up to 15-16 cents a share over at IEM and Intrade?
Reading between the lines of what Intrade has said, and they did investigate it, it a market trader that is using it as a hedge against a market position they have taken whose downside is McCain winning (or at least upside of Obama winning).

beek said...

"Not sure if the Morning Call tracker of PA is wrong or already updated with tomorrow's stats."

These are the new numbers. MCCAIN SURGE!

If he surges that fast for some time he will surpass Obama's above-50 numbers around November 8.

Hey, wait, that's not possible...

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

@ gougef

The closest person to saying it is over is Chris Matthews. He openly mocks the campaign staff of McPlain since the VP debate.

"Some viewers might find that BRACING!"

InkStain said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMDtC6wh9OE&feature=related

Go to 5:20 in the video and you can see some coverage of McGovern on Election Day in 1972.

"Yes I am (confident I'm going to win the election). I feel very good about it."

Stephane MOT said...

My guess : if Obama snatches PA and VA it's over.

The key issue for November Surprise : how McCain's last minute hate-propaganda extravaganza resonates this sunday in rural churches.

To me, just like with Hillary last spring, Mac will either lose ugly or win uglier.

And either way, the GOP is doomed

Alyssa said...

The RNC recap on Olbermann is killing me.

chrish60 said...

new thread

Todd Dugdale said...

akoolromeo wrote:
Just because I don't buy into the hype, doesn't make me a troll.

No, the correct term is "hand-wringer".

A "concern troll" is someone posing as a supporter to advance the opponent's talking points.
For example:

"I'm really worried that Obama could lose in a landslide. Just look at the numbers in OK and KS. You can't deny the facts. The whole "secret Muslim" thing is really gaining traction. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about four more years of neocon politics, but it's looks like that's our future"

That is a "concern troll".
The purpose of the concern troll is encourage "hand-wringing" and give less devious trolls an opening for a salvo of "libs are scared" trollery.

"Hand-wringing" is carried out by genuine supporters who just refuse to believe that their candidate can win, regardless of the facts. "Can't win, don't try" is their mantra. The Republicans are just too strong, and they will always prevail, and we are all screwed, so you had better face the facts.
Generally, "hand-wringers" are people who had unrealistically-high hopes in a past campaign, and got their spirit crushed. Psychologically, they have much in common with victims of abuse.

There is another type of "hand-wringer" as well. This species is merely engaging in a kind of psuedo-intellectual hedging of the rhetorical "bet". If their favoured candidate loses, they can point to their previous hand-wringing remarks and appear to be very wise and insightful. If that candidate wins, they rely on everyone forgetting about those remarks in the general jubilation.
This kind of "hand-wringer" usually has no real views of their own; they can take opposite views depending on who they are facing at the moment. See also "toady".

AstoundingMalevolence said...

My guess : if Obama snatches PA and VA it's over.

My guess, VA is called before PA. Not because PA will be all that close (5-7%), but because the networks figure people will change the channel to something else.

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

Did you know that John McCain was a POW?

Stand up and fight with me!!!

(yeccch)

Alyssa said...

Also reminds me how dull, boring, and shockingly unattractive a room full of old white people can be.

Smitty said...

livemild said...

" smitty-
yes i golfed i took golf lessons from the college weird you asked that!

my dad worked at the bosque del apache.

live in roswell now."

We have 20 acres near Bosque del Apache. Have driven through Roswell a couple of times. Stopped for gas and food once.

Dmitry said...

randomperson, stop being an angry misogynist.

Who are you gonna take your anger out when Obama wins? Typical democrat misogynist.

Bert said...

Don't count out McCain. He can still take VA and PA and OH and all will be lost for Obama!!!

chad said...

Love this blog Nate, but why do we continue to complicate this thing. I think this is a 2 state race, thats it. Pennsylvania and Virginia. If Obama holds PA and wins VA while also picking up Iowa, which he is up double digits in, this race is over. He has 272 at that point and it doesn't matter what happens in OH, FL CO, NC, NM, or NV.

KIC said...

OMG Nate is on DL Hughley!!!!

wv:eysamer

Bozo said...

bobsnj:
I won't insist on calling '92 a realignment. I was figuring that any landslide where the incumbent party loses is a realignment. But if you eliminate '92, there's not a lot of polling data to work with to model a realignment year. The only true landslides were 1972, 1980, 1984, and 1988, and of those, only 1980 involved a change in power.

wv: toses - Pardon me a minute whiles I cleanses my toses?

Rhonda Van Buren said...

People in Florida are angry.

How many retirees have lost 40% of their 401(k)'s in the last month?

ira said...

Nate, I think you goofed.

You describe as one scenario for an Obama: “Win Pennsylvania and ANY ONE of Colorado, Virginia, Ohio, or Nevada* ... ... (* Nevada produces a 269-269 tie, which would probably be resolved for Obama in the House of Represenatives.)"



But, if Obama won his 269 tie that way, then he would have only won 22 states to McCain’s 28. In that case the House of Representatives would almost certainly resolve the tie for McCain, not Obama. Remember your civics class? When the house votes to break an electoral tie, each state gets only ONE VOTE.

sfergus483 said...

It's harder to figure daily #s on a 5 day tracker like Morning Call, but it's pretty clear the Friday number was off for Obama (possibly both Thursday and Friday, since he went down a point each day). That the 5 day average has stuck at 52 is a very good sign.

Undecideds who really were likely McCain people are going that way. No big deal. There are only 3% undecided/other left. Very good.

Frankly, it's better to be 52-45 than 50-40. Margin doesn't count nearly as much as being over 50 and steady.

KIC said...

Yeah Nate! Good job. (It's ok to smile and laugh. ;) )

Bumbler said...

New Selzer polls out in Michigan and Iowa. Michigan is 53-37 Obama; Iowa is 54-37 Obama. Can't imagine what the McCain internals are telling him about Iowa being in play. (Palin is scheduled to be here again Monday, in Dubuque.)

My daughter and I knocked on about 60 doors today. Our organizer told us that each Obama supporter who had not yet voted would receive TWO MORE contacts between now and Tuesday. Very impressive.

sfergus483 said...

--But, if Obama won his 269 tie that way, then he would have only won 22 states to McCain’s 28. In that case the House of Representatives would almost certainly resolve the tie for McCain, not Obama. Remember your civics class? When the house votes to break an electoral tie, each state gets only ONE VOTE.--

Uh, no. If Obama won the popular vote, there is no way in the world the House wouldn't pick him. There is no rule/law/precedent that a member votes the way his state votes.

In a tie EV, there would be overwhelming national pressure for the House to pick the PV winner.

Paul said...

ira said...
"Nate, I think you goofed ... But, if Obama won his 269 tie that way, then he would have only won 22 states to McCain’s 28. In that case the House of Representatives would almost certainly resolve the tie for McCain, not Obama. Remember your civics class? When the house votes to break an electoral tie, each state gets only ONE VOTE."

You weren't paying attention in civics - Nate explains the process here

obsessed said...

If you can vote for McCain after listening to that Palin-Sarkozy call (I'm talking to you, PeteKent & MuleRider) - you're making a joke of your civic reponsibility to choose capable leaders

obsessed said...

You weren't paying attention in civics - Nate explains the process here

And since that article was written, the GOP's House outlook has further deteriorated.

laura said...

Nate, thank you for this site, and congrats on all of your tv appearances!

dneedle1 said...

Eve, I'm in NYC as well. Giving a shout, to borrow a phrase. Nice that we deep blue staters can help out Obama, my vote is only worth so much, but my canvassing and calls can help.

akoolromeo said...

Todd Dugdale said...
akoolromeo wrote:
Just because I don't buy into the hype, doesn't make me a troll.

No, the correct term is "hand-wringer".

Generally, "hand-wringers" are people who had unrealistically-high hopes in a past campaign, and got their spirit crushed. Psychologically, they have much in common with victims of abuse.

There is another type of "hand-wringer" as well. This species is merely engaging in a kind of psuedo-intellectual hedging of the rhetorical "bet". If their favoured candidate loses, they can point to their previous hand-wringing remarks and appear to be very wise and insightful. If that candidate wins, they rely on everyone forgetting about those remarks in the general jubilation.
This kind of "hand-wringer" usually has no real views of their own; they can take opposite views depending on who they are facing at the moment. See also "toady".

November 1, 2008 9:37 PM
******
My attitude develope dfrom living in Florida most of my life, a state, where I am surrounded by Republicans, where Republicans usually wins all the local elections, except in the last 4 years, when a few local Democrats won a few seats. There has only been one Democrat who won the White House in my lifetime that I can actually recall the election. The prior two occurred when I was very young. Add in the last 2 close elections, which were decided under some would say suspicious circumstances, it makes one lose some faith in the results of a close election. I don't believe in being overconfident. I'm a more I'll believe it when I see it type person. If the average polls in the various states were a bit higher than 3-5 %, I would feel much better. People say the Bradley effect is dead, but it has never been tested on a National level before, so who knows what really will happen. It is probably dead in many states, with a history of electing minority candidates, but is it truly dead nationwide, in states that may never had elected a minority candidate for any office, nevermind President. Ironically, I think if anything, it's probably more likely the Bradley effect is dead in the South, so I am not so much worried about any possible effect in those States.

tylerxdurden said...

--But, if Obama won his 269 tie that way, then he would have only won 22 states to McCain’s 28. In that case the House of Representatives would almost certainly resolve the tie for McCain, not Obama. Remember your civics class? When the house votes to break an electoral tie, each state gets only ONE VOTE.--

Uh, no. If Obama won the popular vote, there is no way in the world the House wouldn't pick him. There is no rule/law/precedent that a member votes the way his state votes.

In a tie EV, there would be overwhelming national pressure for the House to pick the PV winner.


It is very nebulous what would happen. It is possible that, given how many states have at least one Dem., that there could be a deadlock. Where upon, come Mar. 4, Biden would become President (because there is no way on this green earth that the Senate is going to elect Sarah Palin over Joe Biden for VP).

tylerxdurden said...

... and in that scenario Joe Biden gets to name a VP, who only needs to pass mustard in the Senate. What would he do? Would he stay loyal to the guy that ultimately got him into the position for the job, Obama? Yeah. And the news media would just eat up the ratings for all this, and ultimately the US would be weaker for it because they'd have an extra couple months of a lame duck Bush.

P.S. It does present an interesting opportunity though for Obama to have more than 8 years in the Whitehouse if re-elections go well.

tylerxdurden said...

And Joe Biden for President isn't such a bad thing. He's no slouch at all as far as a candidate goes. Yeah he's prone to those "Stand Up Chuck" gaffs and can come off gruffer than he intends. But the man is sharp as a tack.

tylerxdurden said...

Really the more I think about it the more I like Joe Biden as President placing a Cheney -esque level, or more, level of responsibility with Obama. Obama has shown superb organizing skills, and with having some public face-time offloaded he could really work some magic.

Adam Posey said...

I don't mean to be a concern troll, and I understand that we all want to be optimistic about this. But when I look at the Democratic New Hampshire Primary, I can't help but feel my stomach sink a little. Obama was prejected +8 to win, and had his his rear portions diced and served to him by Clinton.

What I'm getting at is that the polls were very, very, wrong then. Is it safer to use them as a 'guide' now?

tylerxdurden said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMDtC6wh9OE&feature=related

Go to 5:20 in the video and you can see some coverage of McGovern on Election Day in 1972.

"Yes I am (confident I'm going to win the election). I feel very good about it."

When I listen close I hear "I still feel very good about it." He knows the question being asked. He knows they know he's f#*ked. And he's being overly optimistic. But then again it isn't over till it's over. I don't think McCain is lying when he says he believes he has a chance.

Yeah, the part about having Barak where he wants them, well that's pure bravado bullsh!t. He can read polls as well as any politician in Washington, better than most. He knows he's holding out for a miracle against grim odds. But then he's seen longshots come through for him too in his life and anyone that claims to know how this election is going to end is either lying or delusional [or missed their calling as an omnipotent god].

Paul from Santa Fe said...

Mark said "we don't need [Lieberman]"

That depends. If the Dems have 60 votes in the Senate with him, he can write his own ticket. If they have 60 votes without him, he's in the wilderness.

St. Nick said...

There are no paths to victory for McCain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuhpO9xG2MY

rastafarians2002 said...

Adam Posey said...
I don't mean to be a concern troll, and I understand that we all want to be optimistic about this. But when I look at the Democratic New Hampshire Primary, I can't help but feel my stomach sink a little. Obama was prejected +8 to win, and had his his rear portions diced and served to him by Clinton.

39% vs. 37% was the final result. The polls were taken before Hillary's crying a couple of days prior and didn't take the feminist response that resulted into account.

If you are reviewing primary results, you should be asking about the impending surprise in South Carolina. Polls had Obama winning by about 15% but in fact he won by twice that much in the primary. Hmmm...

Paulette said...

/zogby is retracting his claim of a McCain surge in tonight's posting, nominally the 11/2 posting. Here's an excerpt:
(or just go to www.zogby.com)
-------

"Obama has consolidated his lead over McCain. His single day lead today was back to 52%-42%. He leads by 10 among independents and has solidified his base. He leads among Hispanics by38 points, African Americans by 88, 18-24 year olds by 36, 18-29 year olds by 25, 25-34 year olds by 16, women by 8, and men by 3. He has a 17 point lead among those who have already voted, 22 by those who have registered to vote in the past 6 months, Moderates by 34, Catholics by 10. He even receives 21% support among Conservatives.

"So what happened to give McCain a one-point lead in the one-day polling on Friday? It was a day of consolidation for him, too. He had been losing support among key groups and began to regain some of his own base.

LongStrider said...

In addition to the Friday/Holiday issue, in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia in particular it has been a complete party atmosphere since the World Series. So a large chunk of the electorate was not home and/or completely smashed for the last several days, Friday in particular surrounding the victory parade.

tben said...

What a great job you have done in compiling and presenting this information! Thanks for the clarity you have brought to a complex subject.

Eric said...

Help me figure thuis out please.

Nate predicted Obama wins 347 electoral votes here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/pages/pundit-predictions/index.html?hpid=opinionsbox1


Where does that # come from?


Kerry states + IA, NM, CO VA, NV, NC = 306

We need 41 more from these:

Georgia 15
Florida 27
Ohio 20
Indiana 11
Missouri 11
Montana 4
North Dakota 4

What am I missing? There's no combination that makes 41 and gets him to exactly 347?

cgbnh said...

You have to look at the demographics of PA to understand the McCain uptick in the polls. PA has the second largest rural population in the nation behind TX and offers McCain the demographics that will respond to his message of fear, racial difference and his upside-down tax position. The state has a demographic that consistently votes against its economic self-interest. I just returned from PA on Friday and some of the overt bigotry in appalling.

McCain also needed a state where he could show some movement if he invested heavily in order to maintain a story line of ‘the race is close’. His emphasis there is also not a bad way to try to get Obama to back away from some true red states that McCain has to keep: if for no other reason than down ticket races. His real problem in carrying PA is that people are starting to lose jobs at an alarming rate and retirement benefits are being cut. It will get closer but in the end Obama will carry the state by 4-5 points.

egapre said...

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信次 said...

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徵信社robin said...

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徵信社robin said...
This post has been removed by the author.
徵信社robin said...
This post has been removed by the author.
徵信社robin said...
This post has been removed by the author.
平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

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平平 said...

^^ very nice

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