11.24.2008

[UPDATED] State Pegs Coleman Lead at 172 Votes; Challenges Increase for Fourth Straight Day

UPDATED at 9:50 PM with technical mumbo-jumbo.

The nightly, 8 PM update from the Minnesota Secretary of State now shows Norm Coleman with a nominal lead of 172 votes over Al Franken. According to the state's accounting, Franken has gained 43 votes on Coleman since the recount process began. However, the high number of challenges on both sides probably obscures any true movement in the vote counts.

Indeed, whereas as of midday, it appeared that the Coleman campaign was challenging significantly more ballots than Franken, Franken has fully caught up with Coleman's rate of challenges in the 8 PM count, with both campaigns challenging record-setting numbers of ballots. The Franken campaign's challenge rate in ballots counted today was 18.3 per 10,000 votes; Coleman's was 18.2 per 10,000 votes. The rates of challenged ballots have been increasing by an aggregate of about 50 percent per day over each day of the recount process.




TECHNICAL UPDATE: Different versions of the projection technique that we unveiled yesterday continue to peg Franken as a slight favorite. I am going to list four different versions here -- this will get technical:

'Gross' models evaluate each candidate's results individually, e.g. how much Franken gains in the absolute count. 'Net' models evaluate how much Franken gains relative to Coleman, without worrying about the absolute count. 'Simple' models include a maximum of three variables (plus a constant term): Franken's share of the two-way vote in that precinct, the frequency of challenges initiated by Coleman, and the frequency of challenges initiated by Franken. 'Complex' models account for two-way and three-way interactions (where statistically significant) between these independent variables. The regression is weighted based on the square root of the number of votes tabulated in that precinct. Variables are dropped if not statistically significant at the 95 percent certianty level.
Type    Depth      Franken  Coleman  Net           Result
Gross Simple +473 +138 Franken +335 Franken +120
Gross Complex +368 +17 Franken +351 Franken +136
Net Simple -- -- Franken +336 Franken +121
Net Complex -- -- Franken +263 Franken +48
The various versions of the model project a Franken win by between 48 and 136 votes once all ballots are re-counted and all challenges are resolved. However -- disclaimer! -- the margins of error on these regressions are HIGH, e.g. at least +/- 200 votes to achieve a 95 percent certainty level. The point is not really to project a precise margin of victory (or defeat) for Franken but to suggest Franken probably has made more progress in the recount than is implied by the state's in-progress totals and may in fact be the favorite to win it.

...and actually, there's a (relatively) simpler way to get at the same result. Taking a simple regression of Franken's challenge rate on Coleman's net total and vice versa, the models suggest that Franken is losing about .87 votes for every Coleman challenge, whereas Coleman is losing .74 votes for every Franken challenge. That would imply that about 87% of Coleman's challenges are to Franken votes that were initially ruled legal, and that 74% of Franken's challenges are to Coleman votes that were initially ruled legal. Challenges of this type result in a temporary deduction to the opposing candidate's total until the challenges are resolved.

Given each candidate's present number of challenges, this would suggest that Coleman has succeeded in (temporarily) deducting 1,211 from Franken's total by challenging legal ballots, whereas Franken has succeeded in deducting 1,033 votes from Coleman's total -- a gap of 178 votes. If all such challenges are rejected, Franken would presently have a lead of 6 ballots, and presumably would be on pace to make up additional ground as the final 26 percent of ballots are counted.

The key intuition is that, although the candidates have issued almost exactly the same number of challenges, Coleman is almost certainly making more of the type of challenge -- challenging ballots initially ruled to be legal -- that result in a deduction to the opponent's total. Conversely, Franken is probably appealing the local election official's decision more frequently on ballots ruled to be undervotes -- but this type of challenge has no immediate impact on the state's reported totals. This has nothing to do with which campaign's challenges are more frivolous or not -- it's just that much of Coleman's apparent lead is an artifact of the way that the state keeps score of different types of challenges.

EDIT: Well, let me qualify the above finding some more. Whether or not you arrive at the result I describe above -- that a higher percentage of Coleman's challenges are to legal Franken ballots -- depends heavily on whether and how you're weighting the regression to account for precinct size. I suspect this is because both campaigns' standards for challenging ballots have changed (i.e. loosened) with each subsequent day of the recount, and also with each subsequent day of the recount, we have tended to move into larger precincts. So, sprinkle in additional 'probablys' and 'maybes' as needed. This is confusing stuff.

EDIT #2: Another complication is that it appears as though types of challenges in a given precinct are also a function of the favorability of that precinct for Al Franken. In strong Coleman precincts, almost all of the challenges appear to involve legal ballots that the campaigns are trying to get thrown out. In strong Franken precincts, on the other hand, a more sizable percentage of the action appears to involve undervotes that were not counted initially.

82 comments

Leitmotiv said...

Franken is doomed! Or is it Coleman? DOOMED!!!!

syr93 said...

What a crazy situation in Minnesota. I have no idea who will end up ahead there.

Martin is running some very good commercials down here in Georgia :)

livemild said...

i think it very strange that the challenges are different by one ballot.

what are they doing keeping track of the exact # of the other camps challenges?

i cant help but feel that that is a typo.

ISS Man 71 said...

Not First!!

Figures that the candidates would figure out a way to make this recount pointless as a news story.

Now the challenges are the story. They should have to pay $10 a challenge into a pot, and then use that money to buy all the vote counters beer and whatever kind of regional food (lutefisk?) they eat up there in Minnysota, dontcha know?

Terry

sherifffruitfly said...

Hot DAMN I'm good!!!!

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/projection-franken-to-win-recount-by-27.html#comment-5795401586608839951

:P

twister823 said...

A pox on every Obama voter in Minnesota that did not vote for Al Franken.

This should NOT have been close.

sherifffruitfly said...

Ooops - apparently I still have a thing or two to learn about posting in the right thread. :(

shma said...

The Star Tribune still has Coleman leading in challenges by 124 (as of their 8:26pm update). Since those numbers are more up to date than the SOS numbers, it looks like Franken has not yet caught up in the challenge count.

Joe said...

A pox on the DFL for nominating Franken. I'd have voted for any Democrat who didn't make me ashamed to be one. A vote for Franken would be like a conservative friend voting for Coulter or O'Reilly--I just couldn't do it, and neither could half my friends and family. I know at least 20 people who ALWAYS vote straight democrat who voted for Barkley, just because Franken is so intolerably negative, slimy, and cynical.

sherifffruitfly said...

Joe - phone for you!

It's the Connecticut electorate wanting to thank you for helping to prove that there in fact IS a state electorate that's bigger jackasses that they are.

Neil Chasan, PT, MMT said...

Joe, Al Franken speaks the truth, and the truth about Coleman is slimy. The truth about the economy is negative. There ya go - you and your friends are ...well...ignorant at best if you voted against Al Franken for the reasons you state. Sorry.

Michael said...

Nate, you are losing 'cred' by the post with your highly biased reporting on the recount numbers. This afternoon you reported a spike in Coleman challenges, when in fact, none existed:
http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/SenateRecount.asp

Coleman and Franken have an equal number of challenges with 71% of the votes recounted. Coleman has led in every count and now their are a fewer number of available recounted votes to make up the difference. With an equal number of challenges, down to the last 30% of votes to be counted, and Coleman maintaining a lead throughout - it doesn't take a degree in statistics to predict the outcome when the recount is done. Nate, get some integrity buddy!

CH Truth said...

The Star Tribune has not updated their numbers since about 4:00 - they are 3% and about 300 challenges behind.

They are also showing an inflated total of challenges for Norm Coleman based on what appears to be a type in the city of Bloomington. Probably what should read 15 actually reads 105.

livemild said...

yes they have. look at mower and others

CH Truth said...

I think this is a great chart to look and realize one inherent truth. Once the campaigns figured out that they could "gain" votes in the reported count by simply challenging them... that they just started going crazy.

2% is probably closer to the truth... which across the state would produce about 600 challenges... which would still almost all be rejected.

The other 2500 or so... completely and totally frivilous. Any thoughts that the Franken Camp or the Coleman Camp is doing anything different from the other is just that... a thought.

RedHawksO4 said...

Dear God, can't we just wait until the ballots are counted! We'll know more by flipping coins than following these challenges.

Prop 8: The Litigation Begins

Adam said...

Michael -
The Star Tribune is still reporting more challenges for Coleman than Franken by a significant amount. You can't blame Nate for reporting the numbers that everyone is going off of. When the SOS released "Confirmed" numbers, Nate posted a new thread.

Anyway, no one knows what these challenges mean. Sure, they may be equally worthless and the lead will hold for Coleman. But there is a reasonable chance that one candidate is using a much looser challenge criteria, which would throw the count completely off. Bottomline, this election is going to be decided by a tiny fraction that is lower than any machine or voter margin of error.

We'll know in a couple weeks.

livemild said...

not the strib has changed hennepin challenge #'s .

this is getting so nutty.

i am beginning to think those that bragged at the start of this that MN was NOT Florida are looking like they spoke too soon


i demand a coin toss

merzbow said...

The Bloomington count is indeed a typo, and has been fixed on the Trib site. Challenges are now 1535 Coleman to 1501 Franken, Coleman +210 votes, 77% counted.

Michael said...

First a reminder- I'm not the Michael who posted above.

Second, a confession of an obsessive. I've been pushing for some time that the way to calibrate our estimates was by comparison with the full 'no-challenges' hand-count review of 206 precincts, where we know the probable final result to high accuracy. So I got the best statistician at Harvard to sit down and type the hand-review results (as I called them out from the .pdf) into the Excel file of the recount results for comparison. We did about 100 precincts before realizing that the SOS had already typed in the hand-review in place of the original machine count, so that all that was needed was to mark off the relevant precincts.
There are a few cases in which the second recount changes the results by one and there is no challenge, so the first hand count wasn't always perfect. As a results I got slightly lost on the first pass in sorting out how the current (challenged) recount differs from the most probable final result. The differences, at any rate, were very small, less than a margin of 5 votes in these 150 or so precincts. (I'll get this more accurate later.)
There was no evidence in these precincts of a difference in frivolity between the campaigns.
Based on the latest Strib numbers, it thus looks like things aren't going very well. Of course none of this says anything about the rejected absentee votes, but I'm not very optimistic.
/mbw

C.S.Strowbridge said...

"A vote for Franken would be like a conservative friend voting for Coulter or O'Reilly--I just couldn't do it,"

The fact that you can compare Al Franken to Coulter or O'Reilly make me ashamed that you are a Democrat.

There no comparison between the two sides. None.

Michael said...

Just to clarify my post above- there are significant changes in both F and C numbers (the real ones are higher than the 'challenged' count) but no significant net difference./mbw

livemild said...

i know everone makes mistakes including reporters, election workers, but these numbers going up down and sideways creates the impression that no one knows what they are doing.

i saw the strib change their #,s several times in the last hour or so.
if they are not sure they should not make any changes.

enough already.

Pragmatus said...

The most currect figures (8 pm PST, so 10 pm in MN) shows Coleman up by 210.

IN my view, the recount has been so polluted by frivolous challenges that it is not possible to use the running recount figures for any kind of prediction, except that total challenges may exceed 10,000 ballots. I'm not kidding.
.

STepper said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Another Mike said...

Joe - phone for you!

It's the Connecticut electorate wanting to thank you for helping to prove that there in fact IS a state electorate that's bigger jackasses that they are.


AND

Joe, Al Franken speaks the truth, and the truth about Coleman is slimy. The truth about the economy is negative. There ya go - you and your friends are ...well...ignorant at best if you voted against Al Franken for the reasons you state. Sorry.

AND

The fact that you can compare Al Franken to Coulter or O'Reilly make me ashamed that you are a Democrat.

Ad hominen attacks. Always a sure fire way to convince people [/roll eyes]

STepper said...

"The key intuition is that, although the candidates have issued almost exactly the same number of challenges, Coleman is almost certainly making more of the type of challenge -- challenging ballots initially ruled to be legal -- that result in a deduction to the opponent's total. Conversely, Franken is probably appealing the local election official's decision more frequently on ballots ruled to be undervotes . . ."

Sorry, but "key intuition" sounds like a total guess. "Coleman is almost certainly . . ." and "Franken is probably . . ." confirm it.

I don't see any hard data, or extrapolatable data on the kind of challenges each candidate is making, much less whether the challenges on a county by county (or precinct by precinct) basis are even similar in one camp or another.

Someone in a previous thread talked about "posterior extraction" as his basis for a prediction. This appears to be "posterior excretion."

On the other hand, I still believe that Coleman is a moderate favorite to win. I'm not happy about it, but I'm not going to have any false hopes.

wv - sapingl - the Obamas' new dog!

coolstar said...

My opinion is that Nate has violated the Golden Rule of Statistics here: "correlation does not imply causality". (but at least he quoted his errors this time, thanks!) Time will, of course, tell but it's easy to think that another famous aphorism also applies:
"garbage in, garbage out". Note that the test will NOT be the final outcome, but how the data on the PRECINCT level fits Nate's model as there are lots of models than can give the same final result.....

Juris said...

Thanks for the update, Nate, and it's good that you're showing several models. This also makes clear that your estimate of a 27 vote Franken win was perhaps conservative -- given the available information, and given the model specification.

Then again, that 95% confidence interval (c.i.) is mighty big, and includes a fair probability that Coleman could win. It would help if you showed the c.i. around each estimate, perhaps in graphic form.

Codswallet said...

Two points.

1)If Nate has the old versions of the count, He may be able to tighten up his estimates. Any improvement in votes relative to the old count, even if it just makes a loss of votes smaller and even if it is canceled out by later challenges represents an unchallenged gain. If Franken is at -40 and jumps to -30 only to later fall to -50, the ten votes are in for good, while the later additional - 20 are only challenges, and thus worth, on average, only a small fraction of a vote.

This ignores the possibility that the official counters might strike a vote without waiting for it to be challenged. Any such action would almost certainly hold up before the judges and would be worth almost an entire vote. Also any challenges of such exclusions would, like other challenges requesting adding a vote, not affect the opponents vote totals.

However, based on the preliminary canvas, such official strikings happen less often than additions. We can obviously put an upper bound on the number of official net adds. Then candidates have lost 2059 votes and made 2801 challenges. The difference 742 is the largest possible number of official net additions. If we assume that official strikings occur half as often as additions, then the maximum would be 1484 additions and 742 deletions.

This is psychologically unreasonable, if you believe that there would be a natural tendency to challenge official changes in either direction, since there would be 2226 challengeable actions. If only half such actions were challenged, the total couldn't exceed 1113 - 742 additions and 371 deletions

If you believe that many challenges were to add twice excluded votes, liked undervotes rejected on recount, then either the differences in official counting between election and recount must be miniscule, or the campaigns are only challenging a small percentage of official changes.

There just haven't been enough challenges to support a triple agenda of trashing the opponent's vote total, contesting a large percentage of adverse official changes and advocating masses of dubious ballots from the slush pile. It' only at the latest rate that there are enough challenges for a scorched earth policy with no thought to being selective. That would be at a challenge rate of around 1 for every 400 votes.

Getting back to the earlier point, if Nate has the data, he can use unchallenged additions that show up over time similarly to the way he used unchallenged additions detectable from low challenge rate precincts. (Easy for me to say -:))

2) There are a few counties which are showing large swings relative to the rest. This probably due to the huge number of challenges, but regardless if we had any kind of idea what the true situation was in St. Louis, Hennepin, Ramsey, Carlton, Meeker and Fillmore, we could probably call this thing. I don't see the counties that haven't started yet making a difference. Coleman didn't get much out a similar bunch that has already been recounted.

Another Mike said...

Intrade has both Coleman and Franken trading at around 50. so, it seems that they can't make much sense out of the recount either.

MNLatteLiberal said...

With all due respect, Another Mike, Intrade already had each one of them winning and winning convincingly at one time or another. Intrade has been a poor predictor for this race thus far. I am surprised the money isn't behind Barkley right now, given the Intrade track record on the race.

~ Latte

wv - coosis: a tasty nugget from dailykos.

WhatcanBROWNdoforyou? said...

"...these numbers going up down and sideways creates the impression that no one knows what they are doing."

It's not that the numbers themselves are erratic - it's the reporting to and by the various news outlets that are erratic. The desire for constant updates creates wild swings. We'd all be better off if the numbers stayed secret for a week at a time, and then only the concrete numbers were released. Too much speculation / accusation this way...

Statler N Waldorf said...

While I do appreciate the dramatic finish this is making to the 2008 electoral cycle (what would it be without a cliff-hanger?), the plot twist of having so many ballot challenges is giving me a headache. At the same time, Bush is an ineffective lame-duck and Obama doesn't debut until Mid-January, so I guess this is providing some entertainment to fill up what would otherwise be a very long and kinda boring intermission.

I do hope Al Franken wins, though. At the risk of getting too caught up in the drama, Franken puts on a class act, and Coleman is a boring grey scold with a haircut that looks like he dips his head in a bucket of pomade every morning.

May the best hair win!

Patrick said...

If you are right about this the MSM will sit up and take note.

Mark Ludwick said...

Nate - I appreciate this post, especially the final sentence.

However, I can't replicate your result that "Franken is losing about .87 votes for every Coleman challenge, whereas Coleman is losing .74 votes for every Franken challenge." I am showing them both losing about the same number of votes per opponent's challenge (0.8485 vs. 0.8425), implying that they are making the same types of challenges at the same rates.

(I hope I am wrong about this.)

ohiovoter said...

I understand how Joe feels. But even if I shared his opinion of Franken (I don't), if I lived in MN, I would have voted for him anyway -- because he is running for a legislature.

Legislators vote yes or no, not "yes in an obnoxious, extreme way" or "yes in a thoughtful, honorable way." The yes vote of the slimiest weasel is exactly equal to the yes vote of a saint. And if that yes vote is on something like, say, a terrific health insurance program, or expanding equal rights legislation to sexual orientation, or a plan for withdrawing from Iraq, then I don't care about the personality of the person who cast it. My former rep, John Kasich (R-OH), was an honest, smart, nice, hard-working guy. I never voted for him and never would. Ted Kennedy has had some, er, personal issues -- and I would support him any time. Kasich didn't vote for what I want; Kennedy does.

I want my vote for a legislator to be a vote for the kind of legislation I want, not a prize for personal merit and character. There was a time, and maybe there will be again, when it made more sense to "vote for the person, not the party." But in recent years, senators and reps have been voting pretty much on party lines, at least on controversial issues. Until that stops, I may vote GOP for other offices, but not for any kind of legislator.

So until

zappa24 said...

Let's look at the data and see what might support or disprove Nate's regressions. The big thing that stands out to me is the numbers for St. Louis County. The early numbers with the older Eagle machines put Franken at a net gain of around 30. Right now, Coleman has around a 60 net gain. That is a 90 vote turnaround for Coleman in a county that went heavily for Franken. Looking at the challenges in St. Louis County, Coleman has nearly 100 more challenges than Franken.

Meanwhile, in heavily Democratic Hennepin County, Franken has gone from around a 15 vote net gain to a 20 vote net loss, a change of around 35 net for Coleman. Here, it is a bit harder to determine what the change is due to since the number of challenges are nearly the same. If we add these two counties up, that is a nearly 125 net vote swing to Coleman. This does seem to back Nate's regressions.

Keep in mind, though, that there are counties such as Dakota that went for Coleman but have a net recount gain for Franken with huge number of challenges. Can we figure out whether any of these candidate pick-ups in an opposition's stronghold will hold up?

We could go back to the assumptions about voter error to determine the likelihood that a county that went heavily for Franken would show a net recount gain for Coleman and vice versa. In past elections, Democrats do tend to pick up votes in a manual recount. The reason for this is that many first time voters (especially this year), elderly voters, and ethnic voters tend to be more likely to vote Democratic. There are subsets of Republicans that would also be prone to mistakes, but these subsets do not seem to be as large. In an election with a higher turnout of Democrats than Republicans, you would expect that the gap of the raw number between Democrats and Republicans who would make ballot mistakes to be larger. Now to my main point: we should see this affect across all counties. So while Coleman would be expected to gain more votes in a recount in counties that went for him, the magnitude of the gain may not be as large or may not even exist if the above assumption holds true.

So, what have I done here. First I've taken Nate's regression analysis and gone back to look at the data to see if anything supports Nate's position that Franken may be a slight favorite. Certain county data suggests so, other county data is contrary. Next, going back to an assumption based on previous elections, I argued that the counties that are contrary to the regression may fit with the regression in a way. It is important to note both my assumptions and the assumptions made by the regression analysis.

Mike said...

Here is an interesting look at where this all might be headed in the months (and years?) to come.

Juris said...

That story makes clear why Coleman is determined to stay ahead at every interim step toward final resolution. He wants to be able to plea not just to the courts but to the court of public opinion and actually the Senate -- to imply that only because of a stretched out recount, not the votes counted on election day, has his opponent gained an apparent victory.

Michael said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Another Mike said...

@latte, I didn't mean to suggest that Intrade is always right. Just citing it as evidence that the public recount numbers do not really tell us much about who's likely to win.

joe said...

I trust Minnesota.

It's not like this is in Florida, or Alaska.

If they issue stupid challenges, they'll just lose them, and there will be a number we can rely on.

It's Minnesota.

Michael said...

OK, here's the real data I promised earlier, I believe in accurate form.

In the about 160 precincts which had non-challenged hand-counts as well as recounts with challenges,I compared the unchallenged counts with the challenged ones. I assume that the recount is correct when it has no challenges. When challenges cause a change from the first hand-count, I assume the first one is right.

This best estimate of the true ultimate counts is +5 for Franken over the current running count in these precincts. Obviously there are pure statistical uncertainties in that, crudely at about the +/- 5 level.

A simple extrapolation to all the precincts would mean that Franken would gain about 125 when the challenges are resolved. He's currently down by 210, so that wouldn't quite make it, except toward the upper ends of the error bars.

It would put things in range of possible corrections from absentees.

Extracting these data was quite a nuisance so I do hope people pay some attention to the results, even though they're mildly discouraging.

/mbw

Steve_in_CNJ said...

I agree with Mark L that the -0.87 yield for Coleman challenges doesn't match the 2 numbers (# challenges and # votes lost) at the top of the SoS webpage. it's more like -3/4 for both candidates.
maybe this needs to be updated.

The lesson for state officials is that they should de-politicize this process by ruling on the challenges within 24 hours. If they did that, this nonsense would stop.

Thomas said...

You guys are great ... if they rolled a dice or flipped a coin, you'd have a model and a prediction (and I mean that in a good way))

John said...

Is there a way to calculate the margin of error for a hand recount using the procedures being employed? With 3 million votes, a double digit margin starts to look like a statistical tie to me.

Mark Ludwick said...

Michael - What do you mean by "the about 160 precincts which had non-challenged hand-counts?" I see 2408 precincts in which there were no challenges. Franken gained 24 votes on Coleman in these precincts, where 1095734 votes were cast, for a rate of 0.219 per 10,000 votes, or a gain of around 50 if extrapolated state-wide.

CH Truth said...

I am not sure whether or not Nate reads his comment threads or not... but if he does I want him to explain the contradiction of logic being used in the TECHNICAL UPDATE.

First... let's look at the chart prior to the TECHNICAL UPDATE without thinking in terms of statistics or mathematics, but rather in terms of common sense.

Why has the total of challenged ballots grown? Nothing really has changed... in fact it was well documented that there were some "gentlemen's agreements" regarding frivilous challenges that have been thrown out the window. Common sense tells us that both are pushing the challenges to drive down their opponents numbers to make themselves appear to be doing better. Neither will give in for fear of the headline that that Coleman would wake up to a headline showing Franken ahead or Franken would wake up to a headline showing Coleman up 400 votes.

Every single day (with the exception of the first) the same person who has gained (or lost less) has been the candidate who made more challenges. Franken gained on day one in spite of Coleman challenging 10 more ballots, but then again Franken was reported as "picking up" new votes in St Louis and Ramsey count to the tune of about 50. So the fact that Coleman had 10 more challenges made for the 41 vote pickup for Franken on that day. Next day, no talk of any significant "extra ballots" found, but Franken picks up another 38 (as he challenges 40 more)... etc.... etc...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out.... perhaps being a statistician throws off common sense.

So... bottom line:

Common sense tells us that the 2-3 ballots per 10,000 pace through the first couple of days should be regarded as the standard. Anything above and beyond that would be purely frivilous and 100% a challenge of the other guy's ballot for the pure purpose of lowering the total of the other guy.

Some quick math tells us that if we use this standard, that we are looking at between 580-870 challenges that are not totally frivilous.... and they will be split almost in half. Also keep in mind that these Franken ballots challenged by Coleman and the Coleman ballots challenged by Franken were read by the machine as a vote, and was determined to be a vote by the counting officials. The amount of "challenges" that hold up is insignificant... not even 1% in past recounts here.

So Nate... start over your regression analysis with a number that makes sense.... You make an unfounded assumption that Franken (who is behind) is playing it more straight than Coleman (who's ahead).

Last point... I am from Minnesota and I have been privy to some inside information about the Coleman recount strategy. It's called playing defense. Their people are being told to challenge the same types of ballots that the Franken team is challenging. So Franken challenges Coleman ballots with a dot next another name, then the Coleman team will make those same challenges. If the Franken team is challenging no-votes because the top of the ticket voted for Obama, then they are challenging no-votes for the same reason. All they want is the same type of ballots being challenged by both sides. Therefore there is less chance that the board can make any rulings that harm them

CH Truth said...

How about this guys...

http://www.minnpost.com/politicalagenda/2008/11/17/4674/latest_coleman-franken_recount_numbers_norms_lead_grows_to_215

Minnesota has a policy where they pick 200 precincts and hand count them to determine the accuracy of the scanning machines.

They did this in 200 precincts. No hoopla, no Coleman or Franken reps, no challenges.

Guess what... Coleman gained 9 votes and his lead went from 206 to 215.

Now not only is this important in determining how your regression calculations might go...

But also take into consideration that these precincts are likely not to have any changes and likely have... no challenges. So how many of these precincts (which originaly added votes to Coleman) might be part of the list of precints that have no challenges?

Wouldn't that artifically skew the results if there were precincts that had previously already found new votes for Coleman that were not part of the regression analyisis?

Michael Higby said...

Dang this is like reading the Star Trek fan forums.

Get ready for Thanksgiving guys!

By the way, Democrats could do far better than Al Franken. He's a joke at best; a vulgar charlatan at worst.

mlf said...

Ohiovoter, that was an excellent comment. I completely agree.

Robby said...

Michael Higby

Have you read Al Franken's political books? Brilliant stuff. He's no Paul Wellstone, but I'd much rather have Franken in the caucus than the coward Harry Reid or the traitor Joe Lieberman.

Joseph O said...

CH Truth

Who is your source on the "playing defense" strategy?

obsessed said...

Joe - phone for you!

It's the Connecticut electorate wanting to thank you for helping to prove that there in fact IS a state electorate that's bigger jackasses that they are.


Well put, and both CT and MN are taking the heat off of us Californians for going 61% Obama while voting for Republican moron Schwartzenner, faux-democatric crook Feinstein, and the embarrassingly bigoted Prop. 8.

Hmmmm ... I think CT and MN may have a ways to catch up. Let's see if they elect Lieberman in 2012.

Charlie said...

I hope they both lose.

loner said...
This post has been removed by the author.
loner said...

The other tally...

The California Secretary of State added 330,000+ to the ballots cast number today. Ballots cast now stand at 13,301,163 in California. It's looking more likely every day that Dr. Michael McDonald's next day estimate of 133.3 million votes cast will end up being pretty close to correct when all is said and done.

The turnout percentage of the voting-age population is already the best since 1968 based on the latest wikipedia.org vote count.

goatdan said...

It's again worth pointing out to whomever is saying that Nate is creating theories based on little information:

What the hell else do you expect him to do on this site? Isn't that why we are here, to see these theories and pick them apart or agree with them or enhance them?

Don't hate what Nate is doing or talk about how he is going to lose 'cred' or whatever (which, clearly, the election predictions gave him MORE than enough 'cred' already). If you don't want to read about how you could extrapolate the data into countless different ways to try to determine who is going to win, don't come here. It will leave these forums more open for us who are fascinated by this stuff to talk about it.

Randiego said...

I met Franken at a book signing. He was gracious and funny and patient with every single person that lined up - I was amazed. You think Norm Coleman is like that?

You think Norm Coleman gives a rats ass about troops in the field? I don't, but Al Franken left his family and his work and went out there to Iraq - several times - and did USO shows. The troops love the guy, because he walked the walk when other blowhards just talk.

The comments I read here about Franken make me retch. It's all in front of you if you care to freakin' take a look!

ssmith said...

Wow, Nate got some serious love from Rachel on the Maddow show tonight. Apparently, if Franken wins by 27 votes, we all (the entire U.S.) have to buy Nate a beer. Go Franken @ 27 votes!!!!!

Opus 132 said...

@ Ohiovoter

"I want my vote for a legislator to be a vote for the kind of legislation I want, not a prize for personal merit and character."

My sentiments exactly!

Opus 132 said...

I take some comfort in the fact that the court of last resort (correct me if I'n wrong) is the U.S.Senate.Not the current one,but the heavily Democratic one which will be seated in January 2009.

Coleman's ploys to ensure a lead immediately after the recount will carry no weight there.

Jackson said...

Nate, calculate the effect you have on the intrade prices of Franken. I imagine with little apparent lead and not much other analysis out there, that his prices would be much lower

PorridgeGun said...

I know this is just a bunch of FReeptards, but you've gotta read these posts... Just insane.

Early Voting in Presidential Elections Should Be Made Illegal

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2137808/posts#comment

fred said...

Love the mumbo-jumbo!

The practical effect of the mumbo-jumbo will be to push back on the repub insane story that Franken is "stealing" the election in the recount. This is the effect we want, namely the recount is fair and can beanalyzed.

Great work again Nate-ster!

fred said...

Michael-

Your maodel is way too simplisitc. Almost laughably so. Precinct size and heavier use of voting machines matters, and different voters matter (see EVERY study everdone on this), a linear model assuming each precinct is identical is, well, kinda funny.

Ron said...

I know this is just a bunch of FReeptards, but you've gotta read these posts... Just insane.

Early Voting in Presidential Elections Should Be Made Illegal

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2137808/posts#comment


Kind of sad, actually. Several of them make some weird claim that the Constitution sets aside one day for election day. It does no such thing. It sets aside one day for the electors in the electoral college to vote. In fact a little research would show that early on the states had a period of about a month in which to pick their electors.

joel said...

This recount has become a joke. Coleman just wants to make sure he is leading and can scream that the election was stolen from him.
I get the feeling that Franken will lose by less than 100 votes, I believe his challenges have more merit but this will probably end up in court.
The senate should refuse to seat either one and declare the seat vacant and force Mn. to have another election.

oct said...

Why do another election when Franken won fair and sqaure?

Coleman is a whinny sore loser.

I wonder if MN disenfranchises 3000 votes in their "recount." LOL. The Republican Dream.

lavndrblue said...

Franken has not led once during the recount which leads me to believe he will lose. Sorry...

I have been an observer for the recount and there were many ballots where votes were cast for McCain and then Franken and ballots where votes were cast for Obama then Coleman. This occured in two of the precints north of the cities where voters are known to never vote a straight ticket.

Michael said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Michael said...

@ Mark- I mean the 206 official 'randomly selected'preincts in which the election judges did an initial hand recount with no partisan observers making challenges. Of these about 160 have had subsequent recounts with challenges allowed, so on that subset one can see what (usually transient, according to all accounts) effects the challenges are having in distorting the results.

There are also over 2000 precincts on which no challenges were actually made, but they are obviously not the ones where the interesting action is, i.e. they are not even close to a random sample.

I took the 160 or so precincts for which we happen to have a very good idea of what the ultimate count will be (these are distributed throughout the state) and used them to check whether there was any effect of differential challenge rates distorting the current running count. There was, but it was small and not statistically significant. Extrapolation to the rest of the state could be slightly off because these precincts were slightly less urban than typical, but in light of the statistical errors I doubt that systematic error (of unknown sign) is important.

A detail: if the new recount was still unchallenged, I used it as the final result. If there were challenges I used min(old, new+challenge) as the count for each candidate.

@ Fred- What "model'? What "linear"? What assumption about precincts being identical? You just made that stuff up. Are you familiar with Emily Littella?/mbw

Efrique said...

Variables are dropped if not statistically significant at the 95 percent certianty level.

1-alpha is not in any sense a "certainty level".

PWA said...

maybe I am missing a significant point but, isnt it a GOOD/GREAT thing that coleman is challenging more ballots than Frankin? Isn't it a GOOD sign that Coleman is seeing more reason to attempt to toss out Franken votes? I would think that means that it appears to be a Franken vote but it is a little sketchy. I would also think that the canvassing boards will likely side with the intent of the voter and register these "challanged" votes as Frankens. In other words, I would thing that MOST of the Coleman challenged ballots will = Franken votes and MOST of the Franken challenged ballots will end up be Coleman votes. Therefore, the higher the number of Coleman challenges, the better for Al. Am I wrong?

Bob X said...

Efrique said "...1-alpha is not in any sense a "certainty level". "
For the edification of the non-nerdly: the term he meant was "confidence" level (rather than "certainty"). If Nate claims that the actual margin of Franken votes over Coleman votes is 27 +/- 200 to "95% confidence", the "alpha" that Efrique mentions is some number less than 5%, the probability that the observations we actually find would occur if the true margin is outside Nate's range (if Franken losing by more than 173 or winning by more than 227, we would be very unlikely to see the data that we do).

Bob X said...

PWA said "maybe I am missing a significant point but, isnt it a GOOD/GREAT thing that coleman is challenging more ballots than Frankin? "

IT'S GREAT NEWS!!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!11!!!

sorry guys, couldn't resist

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