So alludes Josh Marshall at TPM, in advising Harry Reid on how to handle Joe Lieberman. Per Politico, a Lieberman staffer says of Lieberman,
his position is he wants to remain in the caucus but losing the chairmanship is unacceptable.
It's hard not to laugh openly at that. Lieberman has zero leverage. Throwing out childish tantrum words like "unacceptable" assumes that Democrats stand to lose something if Lieberman goes to the Republican side.
Remember, this is the guy John McCain desperately wanted to pick for VP. Republicans were willing to stage a convention floor fight to stop that from happening. Thus begat Sarah Palin. Lieberman is not going to be well-loved in the Republican caucus. His best hope is to kiss an incredible amount of Democratic butt and hope he doesn't get expelled.
But Marshall's right. Michael Corleone at the beginning of II "negotiating" with Nevada's Senator Geary over casino licenses is the right understanding of who has the leverage and who has the bluster here.
Senator, you can have my answer now, if you like. My final offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally.
117 comments
FIRST?!?!?
So true. Call it like you see it, Sean, and watch as Lieberman flops around like a fish out of water.
Yeah, but in order to get him to go along, they had to frame him for the murder of a prostitute. Not even Rhambo has the stomach for that.
Nah, his best hope is that Democrats pick up exactly three more seats (such as the three unsettled).
I'm thinking that subcommittee chair is still a better deal than even full-committee ranking minority member.
I assume that he is trying to delay the decision until tempers settle a bit. And hoping that he doesn't lose the sub-chair in the process.
Leiberman has leverage. He could well be the difference between 59 and 60.
Someone is going to have to explain to me how/why Lieberman is able to worm around the senate the way he has been. I suppose it's because his vote may further tip the balances...
Such is the dirty game of politics. You know it's crooked, but it's the only game in town.
Strip Lieberman of his current chairmanships and make him the chairman of the Joint Committee on Printing.
See, Joe, you're still a committee chairman (*snicker*).
wv: dable, as in "Lieberman ain't dable to do squat except whine."
Not to stick up for this Lieberman clod, Sean, but he may still prove useful. There is a small but real chance that we could pick up the trifecta of GA, MN, and AK. We did that in 2006 with the three outstanding seats (VA, MT, and MO) when everyone wrote the odds off. Thus we would need traitorman for that 60th seat. Unless of course, Barack appoints Arlen Specter to the cabinet or something... Ed Rendell appoints himself to the4 senate and we all have a good ol' time kicking Lieb out!
I think the movie '//' is Casino.
The Dems should wait until the rest of the senate races are figured out. If they need him to get to 60, then keep him. If there is no way to get 60, then take a vote and kick Lieberman out of the caucus.
I think that demotion to sub-committee chair is probably a good compromise move: it punishes Lieberman for abandoning the party and campaigning against Obama, but it still gives him enough incentive to continue caucusing with the Democrats. Of course, if the Dems somehow pull out the MN and GA races (which seems unlikely to me) then the situation would totally change and Lieberman would have soome leverage. If I would Reid I would drag my feet on this issue for as long as possible, hoping to get some indication of how those other two races are likely to go. Reaching 60 votes doesn't mean too much in practical terms, but it would be symbolically valuable. Another reason not to alienate Lieberman is that he could be useful in 2010, when who knows what the composition of the Senate will look like.
Pretty poor form of Leiberman not to take a demotion. Chairmanship on a different committee is not that harsh considering the position the Democrats are in now and the fact that Leiberman broke his word to support the Democratic nominee for President.
Does anyone really believe that Leiberman can get a better offer from the Republicans? They are not likely to give him his pick of positions, and he can't get chairmanship anyway.
So even a demotion within the Democrats will give Leiberman more power than the best the Republicans can give him. If he doesn't take it then he is just a spoiled brat.
It's funny, I thought political withdrawal would be a myth. But the news cycles have really settled back into inanity. If I hear one more story this morning about how anonymous McCain campaigners are slinging mud at Palin (not that she isn't an easy target), or how Barney bit a reporter, I'm going to rip out my toenails. Even Olbermann is in on it. I went back and counted how many times he showed that clip of Barney last night. Twenty and one half times. C'mon.
OMG there's a commercial on right now for a commemorative Barack Obama inagural gold dollar. $29.95. "Celebrate this historic event...blah, blah, blah. I guess MSNBC is trying desperately to fill the post campaign advertising void. Jeez
Leiberman has to go. OK if he wanted to support McCain, but some of the statements he made are completely unacceptable, as is campaigning for down ticket candidates.
The message has to be that there are consequnces for your actions.
And 60 is always achieved more through a coalition than along party lines.
Why do people not understand that having 60 people on your team won't do it? Cloture votes are not like Senate Organizing Resolution votes, where you need 51 on your team. They can get a different 60th vote every time, and Lieberman the Democrat is going to be no more reliable than Lieberman the Republican.
Kick the bastard out, until the voters can finish the job in 4 years.
WV: Shlodd. Joe Lieberman is such a shlodd.
To clarify my position, Leiberman can stay in the party, maybe even keep some low level sub-committee position.
But, he loses his committee chairmanship. No question.
Being in the minority party is not as fun as being in the majority. That is why the switches almost never go that way.
Democrats know they can't count on Lieberman for anything. He will "vote his conscience" (as he calls it) no matter what party he is in. So there's no advantage any more to having him "in the caucus" as opposed to outside of it.
bioniclatino -- What exactly has he done?
He endorsed the war (which is hopefully less of an issue in the future).
He got primaried out, but instead of just taking it, he appealed -- successfully -- to the general election voters in his state. That offends the base, but it may not be a bad thing. I wish that some of the Republican Congressmen hit by Club For Growth had done the same. (Though I assume his seat wouldn't have actually switched parties if he had stepped aside.)
He endorsed the wrong Presidential candidate, which typically waits for retirement. And (worst?) he then helped with a nasty campaign -- but there are plenty of other senators only there because of their own nasty campaigns.
These might be enough to override seniority, but I wouldn't call them "worming around" or "dirty politics". (Or at least no more worthy of punishment than McCain himself.)
I really, really hope that the Democrats elect to boot Lieberman out of their caucus if it becomes evident they won't get to 60 seats. It's one thing for a senator to disagree with his or her party's direction or to vote with the other party when he or she feels it right. There's nothing wrong with that.
It's an entirely different thing, however, to not only openly support the other party's candidate for president, but also to even have the gall to speak at their convention. Lieberman may vote with Democrats, but he's made it perfectly clear that he is most certainly not a Democrat.
For him now to expect no retribution or consequences of any kind is just amazing. I eagerly look forward to 2012 when we can finally get this blowhard out of the Senate.
What is it they say about payback?
Oh yeah, it's a bitch.
He should just be glad if the D's strip him of his chairmanship and promise not to try too hard to run him out of office in 4 years.
JC is right, 60 is meaningless, just a symbolic number. Lieberman will vote what little conscience he has left, he isn't reliable on many issues, but he is on others. 60 is important for cloture votes and he won't be with the Dems on Iraq issues and will on others. He isn't alone on those votes, there are a number of conservative DEms who will vote the other way. As a Democrat, I say kick him out of the caucus, strip him of his chairmanship, tell him to go to the Republicans, whose convention he spoke at and whose members he campaigned for. If the caucus ever meets, do we really want to be discussing strategy in front of this sleazebag?
Leiberman being "punished" by the democrats by losing his chair is moronic.
Someone please give me real credentials why Leibermand should lose his chair. The fact that he's independent and rallied for McCain doesn't mean much in an American Democracy.
I think Reid should make him walk around with a "Kick me. I was a stupid moron for supporting McCain" sign on his back for the next 2 years. And he needs to address all other Democrats as "sir" from now on.
e.
Sorry to change the subject, but it looks to me like the magic state was Colorado.
State. EVs % Obama Total
DC 3 93 3
Hawaii 4 72 7
Vermont 3 67 10
Rhode Island 4 63 14
Illinois 21 62 35
New York 31 62 66
Massechusetts 12 62 78
California 55 61 133
Maryland 10 61 143
Deleware 3 61 146
Connecticut 7 60 153
Washington 11 58 164
Maine 4 58 168
Oregon 7 57 175
New Mexico 5 57 180
Michigan 17 57 197
New Jersey 15 57 212
Wisconsin 10 56 222
Nevada 5 55 227
Pennsylvania 21 55 248
Minnesota 10 54 258
Iowa 7 54 265
New Hampshire 4 54 269
Colorado 9 53 278
Virginia 13 52 291
Ohio 20 51 311
Florida 27 51 338
Indiana 11 50 349
North Carolina 15 50 364
The amazing thing is, the 'tossup states' of Virginia, Ohio, Florida, Indiana, and North Carolina were all icing. Obama won 269 electoral votes with at least an 8 point margin.
Boy, having the Convention in Denver was a stroke of genius.
Rascal2Q,
He campaigned for the other side's candidate, after running for office on the platform of campaigning for the Democrats.
He is not needed to make up the numbers.
He will not be any more or less reliable a vote in either caucus.
JC,
Exactly, which is the point of being an "independent". The promise thing, not so concerned about, he's a politician. No doubt that I understand why the Democratic party is mad at him, but "punishing" him by threatening to take his chairmanship away is moronic and the last thing that the democratic party wants to do right now since they talk so much about bi-partisanship.
So, I have a possibly stupid question for you folks, about the 60-seat threshold and what that means as a practical matter: if you reach 60 in your party + others that caucus with you, is the right of filibuster *automatically* invalidated or is there a vote every time the opposition wants to do it? If it's the former, I can see the argument for waiting and seeing what happens with the remaining Senate races, but if it's the latter - well, Lieberman just seems too unreliable to me to make his word to vote with the Democrats trustworthy so there's little to be lost in cutting him loose.
For all of you liberal nitwits, there are a couple of things you should consider:
Overall turnout was the same as 2004, just different voters.
Youth voted in the same number as 2004.
2008 was a repudiation of the mushy middle including McCain, Shays and Gordon Smith. Conservatives and conservatism didn't lose.
I am eager for Obama and the libs to overreach for a repeat of 1994.
Leiberman does not have to caucus with the democrats to vote to kill a fillibuster (cut off debate)....so who he caucuses with is not really important. Democrats should not cut off their noses to spite their faces. Remember..."Keep your friends close and your enemies closer..."
Lieberman isn't the path to 60, what makes us think he would be the magic vote to invoke cloture?
The best idea I have heard is to strip Joe of all but 1 chairmanship. If he wants to put his support of the democrats caucus where his mouth is, he can keep that chair ... if not, so long Joe and say goodbye in 2012 when CT gets proper representation.
My idea for Lieberman is: the Ds are lobbying to flip Snowe and Specter, these two have been Rs for so long it will be a hard sell. So, tell Lieberman he can stay Independent and have him kead the formation of a new caucus -- independent Center senators who don't want to be Ds but who don't want to be associated with the Rs' implosion. Strip off the moderate Rs, strip off the Rs' best experience, and reduce them to a core of crazies.
There is no way Lieberman will join the Republican caucus, because it means come 2012 (assuming he doesn't retire) it will be a straight fight betweeen the Democrat and the Republican Lieberman in a true blue state.
Surely we would be able to pick him off in those circumstances?
I think that Loserman should switch to the Republican party, as losing the Republican primary in four years would be much less embarrassing than losing the Connecticut for Lieberman party primary. I can't imagine why Mitch McConnell would want to take a thorn out of Harry Reid's ass and stick it in his own, but he should go to town with that if he wants.
Mary: Nope, the 60 votes to end debate and proceed to a vote happen on a bill-by-bill basis, and the caucus has no more than the usual arm-twisting powers to get their members to not defect.
Jeez, Joe, what are you going to do when you don't get either of your demands? You had to know what would happen when you stepped so far to the right this year-- why are you whining about it now?
Lieberman is the chair of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. Is that something where Lieberman's politics clash with the majority of Democrats?
If it is not -- and I doubt that it is -- then the Democrats don't gain anything other than revenge for his disloyalty by removing him from his chairmanship.
It is in the long-term interest of the Democratic Party to not make an enemy of Lieberman for no reason.
Nonetheless, he deserves a reasonable punishment for his disloyalty -- if for no other reason than to discourage others from that behavior. The correct punishment would be this: 1) take him off of the Armed Services committee, where (at least with regard to defense policy) he truly diverges from his party; and 2) in exchange for leaving him in charge of Homeland Security, remove him from his other two committee assignments (Environment and Small Business).
The net effect would be that Lieberman would have far less power, yet he would still be dependent on the Democratic caucus for the little power he had left.
"Exactly, which is the point of being an "independent"."
If he is so keen on being an independent, then he has no right to demand anything from the Democrats. He is not loyal to them, why should they be loyal to him?
Are you guys going to post about Alaska? Are there missing votes?
If I hear one more story this morning about how anonymous McCain campaigners are slinging mud at Palin (not that she isn't an easy target), or how Barney bit a reporter, I'm going to rip out my toenails.
Political withdrawal? For some reason I assumed this was Barney Frank. Google revealed the truth to be less interesting...
[wv: lantoro - an incandescent donut?]
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/conservatives-cite-defeats-as-reason-to-move-right/?apage=2#comments
...unbelievable. Talk about living in an alternate universe. If republican primary voters choose Palin in 2012, especially after the very smart choice of McCain (if any Republican could have won, it would have been the old McCain, with a reputation of thinking independently from his party) I'll just have to laugh.
Seriously, I do hope the Republicans realize that extreme right-wing views as exemplified in the Bush administration bring them down, and eventually come around to being a reasonable moderate opposition. Can't we have two grown-up parties? Is that too much to ask?
Alex Epstein said...
Are you guys going to post about Alaska? Are there missing votes?
The votes aren't "missing", they just haven't finished counting yet. Likely another 40K early/absentee ballots to go, and Steven's percentage is slowly dropping.
P.S. Because of the passing of a voter initiative on a prior ballot (because of the last scumbag Gov AK had) Palin can only call for another election, not appoint a Senator of her choosing.
538 vs RCP: 9 Swing States
538 [RCP] (Actual)
CO +6.6 [+5.5] (+8.1)
FL +1.7 [+1.8] (+2.5)
IN -1.5 [-1.4] (+0.9)
OH +3.4 [+2.5] (+4.0)
NH +9.8 [+10.6] (+9.5)
MO -0.2 [-0.7] (-0.2)
VA +5.6 [+4.4] (+5.5)
NC +1.0 [-0.4] (+0.4)
MT -2.7 [-3.8] (-2.5)
538 correctly guessed the winner in 8 out of the 9 swing states and got closer to the actual margin than RCP in 7 out of 9.
RCP correctly guessed the winner in 7 out of the 9 swing states and got closer to the actual margin than 538 in 2 out of 9
538's average error was 0.72%
RCP's average error was 1.27%
Winner: 538
petition for no more Joe
please sign, seal and deliver (oh, share it with your progressive-minded friends as well)
http://action.firedoglake.com/page/petition/nomorejoe
Obama has more ways to 60 than just with Lieberman. One or two republican senators is fairly likely given Emanuel's relationships with members of Congress.
Joe has zero leverage and he has to know this.
It is the height of presumption for Lieberman not to expect some kind of punitive action after all he has said and done. How he expects to remain the chair...
Consider this: The republicans are vulnerable right now. The party is in disarray, their approval ratings at an all time low. Unless there is a completely egregiously bad bill it would be politically bad to filibuster. I suspect we'll see more than one republican reach across the aisle.
I'm with Sean on this one. Hand Lieberman his hat. If he wants to defect (again), he'll just look like a crybaby. Republicans don't want a threepete in 2010.
The problem I have with Lieberman is that "Independent" for him was not about really being independent, but a way to get elected again. He wasn't an independent until he lost the Democratic primary.
He should be kicked out of the Caucus. Let him go to the Republicans. When he does that, he will loose reelection in 4 years and the democrats will pick up another seat. The dems do not need him.
The Mainstream Media ia so biased, almost all the stories are about Obama. Where are the equal number of stories about McCain?
They keep talking about Obama winning the presidency, why don't they also talk about what McCain won?
Totally biased towards Obama... /sarchasm
He should not be kicked out of the caucus. So he has disagreed with his party on a few issues. Don't get me wrong, I am as big an Obama supporter as you will find, but I value a willingness to vote with your concience, not loyalty to party. You can be loyal to your party and not have an original thought in your body. We were all heralding Obama's willingness to work across the aisle as a good thing. Why is it any different for Lieberman. Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he should be punished.
Lieberman's voting history on the environment an workers rights is longer then Obama's and I would argue in some cases better. Obama's neo-con vote for FISA is just as bad as Lierberman's pro-war votes. This is not a progressive vs. conservative issue. This is a petty partisan issue, and the question is do we really want that as Democrats?
I say lay off asking for blood and work out a compromise to keep him in the caucus.
@eponymous
You missed the best quote from the article:
"Had Mr. McCain not selected her to be his running mate, Mr. Blackwell said, 'I think the Republican ticket would have fared like Senator Dole’s did back in 1996.'"
LOL, news flash Mr. Blackwell. The Republican ticket did fare very much like Dole's did. You got blown out. It just took a few extra days for people to realize what a dog of a VP candidate Palin was, and only then because McCain managed to keep her from talking that long.
FISA is just as bad as voting for the AUMF? Are you fucking kidding me?
Lieberman is an independent. He proved that when he ran against the Democratic nominee for Senate in 2006.
He is not a member of the majority party. Ergo, he should not have the privilege of chairing any committees.
This has nothing to do with him endorsing McCain. In fact, a Senator should be free to endorse who he chooses - for example, if Hagel had officially endorsed Obama, he should not have been kicked out of the Republican caucus.
But what Lieberman did is totally different: by running against the Democratic nominee he stripped himself of the attendant privileges of being a member of the majority party.
My opinion is that Lieberman should be booted from the Chairmanships that he has. For one, as far as I have seen, he isn't actually even caucusing with the Democrats anymore, and he hasn't been since his speech at the Republican Convention.
Secondly, while I like the idea of them reaching over the table to work with Republicans, Joe states he isn't a Republican. And I think that it would make sense for him to try to play the middle if he wants to be around for a while still. It's clear based on his primary fail that Democrats in Connecticut don't really care for him, but he was able to pull enough of both parties to play the 'in between' guy in the last election. A total switch would seen erratic at best, and would make him even more of a target, I'm sure as his stated beliefs and votes don't line up with the Republican way of thinking, either.
The problem is, and I think this is the way that Democrats could explain this to anyone thinking this is just retribution, is that he has changed his mind and opinion far too often to be reliable, and that they feel that a reliable, sure-of-themselves person needs to be the chairman on one of the most important boards out there. In the words of a Bush campaign -- Can we afford to have this man in charge of homeland security? Personally, regardless of what he does, I don't feel comfortable with that at all.
Obama's neo-con vote for FISA is just as bad as Lierberman's pro-war votes
Beyond comedy indeed.
Lieberman needs to lose his chairmanships. What he pulled is simply unacceptable.
I'm not sure I know what all the potential ramifications are of throwing Lieberman out of the party, but unless he serves some real purpose, I say toss him.
He started out like McCain -- principled. He was for the war, OK, I can respect that. But he agreed not to campaign against the Demo ticket, but he did. He promised not to campaign against Demo downtickets, but he did. So just like McCain, he lost his principles in the Republican campaign, and so we can lose him.
On the other hand, Akala is rumored to be his replacement as chair. As a citizen of Hawaii I can tell yu Akala is a dodderer, possibly losing his 80+ year old marbles, and has not accomplished anything of note in his entire career. he is at the bottom of every list. So that's no solution for the committee.
Joe wanted to be re-elected so much that he quit the Democratic party to run as an independent. I say kick him out of his cushy chairmanship - he hasn't held any meetings, so it's not like he needs the job - and let him look for a place with the Republicans he was so busy supporting this year.
Oh yeah, if he wants to stay in the Democratic caucus, he still loses his chairmanships and his seniority. The office in the basement will do fine for him.
Lieberman -> DEM =
Any NeoCon -> GOP
Lieberman -> Obama =
Judas Iscariot -> Jesus Christ
Oust him before he get the chance to inflict real damage
tyler, eponymous-
My favorite line was how they cite the "fact" that moderate House candidates lost and the conservative ones won as if it had nothing to do with the districts in which they were running.
The perfect counter-example is MD-1. They drummed out a more moderate GOP congressman Wayne Gilchrest and ran far more conservative candidate, Andy Harris. While Gilchrest probably would have won the Eastern Shore district going away, Harris may very well lose it.
Did anybody else see this headline over at www.236.com. I haven't looked through the rest of the site, but the post is right on...
...and I'm totally fine with each person voting with what they really think about things. Quite frankly, I think that we need more strong independents to really think about the laws to vote so that there is more sense to what gets passed. But having Lieberman go:
Oh, I like Obama... Wait, no, I like McCain. Oh, I'm not a Democrat, I'm an Independent... wait, no, I'm an Independent Democrat. Oh, I like Democratic foreign policy... wait, no I like Republican foreign policy...
...it all just weakens him. If for years he stood for the same stuff, then what he did should have no bearing. But considering the last two or so years out of him has had a weird Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde dynamic, I don't know why you want someone like that in charge of an extremely important committee.
The only Repub Senator I could see flipping is Norm Coleman if he wins - he was the Dem mayor of St Paul, and is slimy enough to switch again.
Olympia Snowe might be tempted with a cabinet position, and her replacement would be a Dem.
king said...
The Mainstream Media ia so biased, almost all the stories are about Obama. Where are the equal number of stories about McCain?
They keep talking about Obama winning the presidency, why don't they also talk about what McCain won?
Yes! McCain won senate seat. Oh-no sorry it was'nt up for re-election. LOL
It's silly to talk about not "making an enemy" of Lieberman, who ran against the Democratic nominee for that Connecticut Senate seat last time out, and who backed McCain and spoke at the Republican convention. The latter goes well beyond just endorsing McCain.
Lieberman's loyalty is to himself. He rolled the dice and lost. Letting him keep the chair of Homeland Security is rewarding someone for trying to stab you: bad politics, and not ethically required. Maybe let him stay in the caucus, but not with that plum committee position.
Mason, that indeed was a close number 2. :) Totally freakin', batshite clueless. If these guys really are having a big say in steering the party then the GOP is going to be lost in the wilderness until someone comes along to oust those turds.
To bring this line back on topic, Joe needs to get handed a demotion (toss him a bone if you like). If he turns tail to the GOP, to get [mis]treated like crap by the aforementioned batshite clueless GOP leadership then so be it. McCain isn't going to be in much of a position to help him out there.
In any event he'll have to answer to CT voters in 4 years time (and might have McCain around to help him for only 2 of those).
Hey, jack-be-nimble, you're right for once. It WAS a similar turnout to 2004, just different voters. If by different, you mean Democratic as opposed to Republican.
In fact, it WAS a record year for Democratic turnout. If the numbers aren't quite as high as some pundits sensed, it's because Republicans didn't show up at the polls or they voted Democratic.
As long as we're alluding to movies, I'm kind of fond of the Walking Tall scenario, in which Sheriff Buford moved the corrupt Judge's office to the basement men's room.
60 is a wooly number.
Senators don't always vote with their party, or even turn up. Then again sometimes you can get a Republican or two to take your side.
A true "Fillibuster proof" majority would probably be nearer 65.
Given that, Liberman has some clout as you never know if he will make the difference for some particular piece of legislation.
There is good strategic reason for throwing him out.
If he stays a true indipendent then he will have zero power. He will provide no pork for his state, and generaly have difficulty proving his validity come reelection.
If he joins GOP he will have a little more power but will not be reelected in a Dem state unless pigs fly.
However as a Ind caucussing with Dems he can argue in 2012 that he has a valid right to dem votes. he can argue that he has the seniority to get things done. He might not win, but he will split the dem vote and give the seat to a Republican.
In short if the Dems want him out in 2012, and replaced by a more faithful Democrat they must leave bootprints on his behind NOW.
Obama endorsed Lie-berman to help him save his senate seat in '06. That makes Joe's endorsement of McCain all the more of a slap in the face. I say to hell with him.
WV: housnes. Housnes nousnes brown cousnes?
I don't like how Lieberman has acted, and his attacks on Obama were over the line, and made it more than just campaigning for someone he thought should be President. But a main complaint against Bush and the Republicans of the last 8 years has been they don't allow for any dissent. And look where it got them? Wouldn't it send a strong message that things are going to change to allow Lieberman to stay where he is? And would that then result in greater loyalty from the Senator (similar to from The Wire, when Daniels learned it was Carver going behind his back in Season One).
OT I guess, but has anyone seen any post-election video of my fave McCain flack Tucker Bounds? Or did he quickly scurry back under his rock?
The new Congress isn't even sworn in, and I'm seeing a lot of disturbing echoes of the Newt Gengrich "party loyalty uber alles" attitude that ended up hurting the Republicans so badly in the long run.
Newt Gengrich turned the Republican party into an organization that placed service to the country a distant second behind making sure lots of people with (R) next to their name get elected.
If this discussion paralells the attitudes of Democrats currently in power (or about to take power), they're in for the same fate.
But that's partisan politics, I guess.
Lieberman cannot be trusted. He cannot be left in any position where you would need to trust him. Particularly he can't be party to any Dem strategy or tactics meetings. He chose to hang out with McCain. Tell him to continue doing it.
There's a difference between some sort of internal party cohesion and discipline and what the '94 band went astray with.
... having seen the last couple of posts, this is not about 'you must toe the party line or else' fear factor this is about 'you kicked us in the teeth, we can't trust you, why the hell would you expect us to trust you?' reaping what he has sown.
Strip his chairmanship, and let him decide whether to continue caucusing with the Dems.
Chris Murphy (D-CT05) for US Senate in 2012!
oh mason,
I see the assimilation worked.
Mrs. B-
That's the problem with turning them into drones. Their minds are so hardwired to think like that they are able to mount a bit of a resistance. It's futile, but they do it anyway.
Screw Lieberman. Cloture votes are rarely down party lines anyway, and it doesn't look like there's much of a chance to get to 60 Dems. In a cloture vote, they can likely count on Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, Arlen Specter and George Voinivich to flip, depending on the issue. Strip Lieberman of his chairmanships. Even if he bails and caucuses with the Republicans, we can still count on him for some cloture votes once he gets out of his bitter phase.
@Mrs. B...right on.
@Ben said... But a main complaint against Bush and the Republicans of the last 8 years has been they don't allow for any dissent. And look where it got them? Wouldn't it send a strong message that things are going to change to allow Lieberman to stay where he is? ...
Decent point, that's why he can stay in the caucus and keep a low level committee. But, he can not stay Chair of Homeland. There have to be consequnces for your actions, that's also part of fairness.
Authorization of Military Force Vote: Many Dems voted for this and to only hold one Senator accountable is hypocritical.
Funding for the war: The Dem leadership refused to use the power of the purse to stop the war (they could have withheld the votes for the budget) but for political expedience did not (judging from the election results this may have been a good decision). Again holding one Senator responsible for this is short sited.
FISA: Barak Obama called this a line that could not be crossed and then voted against it. At least Biden had the good sense not to follow this course of action. Now to be fair Lieberman is not much better on these issues, but at least you know what your going to get.
I stand by my point that Lieberman's voting record in the Senate is better then Obama's and that we might all want to cool our heads and keep him on our side.
Guys we won the election... time to move on and count votes for issues we care about. Is alienating Lieberman going to get labor or environmental issues passed?
-- The Repubs will outdo "party loyalty ueber alles" far more than the Dems will do, to their detriment. Any House member who tries to work with Obama will face a primary challenge; Specter already will be challenged, irrespective what he does; Boehner's idiot comments on Rahm Emmanuel (already in the face of favorable ones from the Wall Street Journal and Lindsay Graham) show a brain dead nature
-- Tucker Bounds has survived the world's longest frat pledge hazing in history. He can now go back to college.
Mary's question was interesting.
As far as I know, each vote in the Senate stands on its own. That's why sometimes the Democrats will be able to beat the filibuster by making common cause with moderate Republicans.
So far, the turnout stands at 123.8 million, which is 1.5 million more than 2004. But since the voting age population of the US has grown by around 10 million since 2004, this means the percentage turnout is slightly down at this stage. But we still have more votes to come, especially from California.
Interesting news from California - the number of uncounted ballots has actually risen in the last couple of hours, from 2.3 million to 2.6 million. I was expecting it to go down as they started counting the votes, but obviously they haven't really started counting those votes yet.
http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/c-status08/total_unprocessed_ballots08.pdf
His best hope is to kiss an incredible amount of Democratic butt and hope he doesn't get expelled.
Are you kidding me? Lieberman has already been expelled. Last I checked, he was ran out of the Democratic party a couple of years ago during his re-election bid in Connecticut. Hence the big "I" by his name. He only caucuses with Democrats as a formality, anyway.
Sean Quinn is a dumbass for even trying to make this an issue. What a douche.
"A formality"? Uh, had Lieberman not caucused with the Dems, we would have had Majority Leader McConnell and Repub chairs of all the committee for the last two years.
For the next Congress, it is closer to a formality as far as the Dems are concerned, but for Lieberman it is a huge deal - committee chairmen get the biggest offices, the largest staffs, the most perks. His wife also is a big-time lobbyist, and his being cast aside and joining the Repubs will make him close to a non-entity.
My guess is that he will take whatever the Dems give him, but it is a close call.
One of the hardest things to do in any large organization is to maintain team discipline. Sen. Liebermann clearly violated the trust of the Democratic caucus and not only supported the opposition's Presidential candidate, but spoke at the opposition's national convention for the sole purpose of criticizing the Democratic Presidential candidate. Furthermoe, Sen. Liebermann not only criticized Sen. Obama at the convention, but made speeches afterwards as an ongoing process. In addition, he also gave support to and spoke for various down ticket Republican Congressional candidates. That is probably the most disloyal thing a caucus member can do short of switching sides entirely.
The Democrats will most likely not gain the 60 seat count they desire, so needing Liebermann's vote for filibustering is not required.
I say throw the bum out of the Dem caucus and be done with it. It's the logical and rational thing to do to maintain discipline and unity within the caucus. A firm response will definitely dissuade any other Democratic caucus members from trying something like that in the future.
Well, until the Democrats have sixty votes without Lieberman (and even then) he has leverage. Just different leverage than what he had before. (Obviously, a lot less, since the Dems won't rely on him for the all-important capture of the Senate majority.)
But that is what is so, um, interesting about the Senate. Every Senator has a lot of leverage.
Dems have no clear path to sixty, with or without Lieberman. Guaranteed that a couple of Democrats will peel off of anything that isn't easy. Call 'em Blue Dog Democrats, or whatever, they are Dem in name only. Judicial nominations will be blocked as the Republicans create "gridlock", then blame the Democrats for "not getting anything done." It is an endless cycle. The only way around is for Barack to go around them, straight to the people, like Reagan did.
That said, Reid absolutely has to throw Lieberman out of at least the chairmanship, if not the party, to show Blue Dogs and worse, there's a new sheriff in town.
Quick question, and I should know the answer, but I don't.
If Lieberman had decided to Caucus with the Republicans, creating a 50/50 split in the Senate, which party would be considered the majority? My (limited) understanding of the Senate rules of order is that there has to be a majority and minority leader, so how would this be determined?
What I really would like to see happen is for Harry Reid to reenact the scene from "Mary Poppins" where the father gets fired from the bank. Rip up his boutonniere, punch through his hat, turn his umbrella inside out, pop his collar... yeah. Too bad he doesn't dress like he's from 1910.
I guess I can understand not wanting to piss Lieberman off too much so he doesn't cause trouble, but on the other hand I can't really imagine a situation where he's the deciding vote on something really key. And they can't just let him pal around with Republicans with impunity... the chairmanship has got to get stripped! If he wants to quit the caucus over that, let him.
In order believe that Red Joe is the 60th vote, you would have to believe that Red Joe would vote with us when the chips are down.
If you think that, I want some of what you are smoking right now.
Two words:
Buh
Bye.
This one is easy: Joe keeps his committee chair in exchange for voting as instructed each and every time. As soon as he doesn't do what he's told, he gets kicked.
He's a tool. Use him as such.
Joe Lieberman needs to be excommunicated from the Democratic party.
If Lieberman had decided to Caucus with the Republicans, creating a 50/50 split in the Senate, which party would be considered the majority? My (limited) understanding of the Senate rules of order is that there has to be a majority and minority leader, so how would this be determined?
The Vice President, who casts a vote whenever necessary to break a tie. So had Lieberman not stayed with the Democrats, the GOP would have controlled the Senate the past two years.
How about making Lieberman Secretary of Balloon-Doggies or something, and getting a blue Senator in return?
There are plenty of conservative/moderate Democratic Senators and damn few moderate Republicans left... on many issues, we won't make 60 with or without Lieberman. But we don't need him to make 51.
We needed Joe Lieberman in 1996; now we don't. That's the sad, Machiavellian truth. Joe has no negotiating leverage. He gets whatever Harry Reid is willing to give him.
There are plenty of Democratic Senators who DIDN'T campaign against the party this year. Some of them are more conservative than Joe, but they're also more loyal. They deserve a shot at those committee chairs.
There’s noting at all magical about 60 in the caucus. I agree with Tyler and others. Further, how is the leadership going to insist on good party discipline if they let the guy who betrayed the national party once and the Connecticut party once hang around with power. If he is so vain as to want to run again in the future he better not get in between too many bills and Obama’s signature. To support a filibuster is a whole different ball game now that the popular president is there waiting with his pen to sign the bill. The women from Maine, Specter, if he wants to run again in 2010, and other northern pubs will start to preview the new republican party, the cooperative, reasonable democrats lite party. It would be a wonderful thing if the pubs were stupid enough to line up behind Palin but I fear their money people at least are not so lame.
Great election by the way. Thanks to everyone who along with my wife and I kicked in time and money.
wv: oliescu = Old Lieberman in exquisite servile caucus unction.
The irony is, Lieberman better hope that the Democrats can take the Senate seats in Minnesota, Alaska and Georgia. Because that would mean the Democrats would then have 58 seats in the Senate, and he would be one of two independents who would have the clout to help overturn Republican filibusters.
Otherwise, if the Democrats are unable to get ALL three of those Senate seats, Lieberman's clout is essentially zero. Reid should kick him out.
You know, in the grander scheme of things, maybe it was for the best Gore lost in 2000 -- Lieberman was his VP choice, after all. (And look at what happened with John Edwards, too.)
Mule Rider, your off your medicines again, keep it up and you'll have to vote yourself off the island again.
wv: bidul Boy, I don't understand lame-on-purposeness.
Fuck Lieberman. He is not a Democrat, so Democrats shouldn't pander to him. He is also a supreme asshole. His arrogance is astounding and the more the Dems feed it, the bigger his smirk gets. Now that his McCain has been defeated, he should be smacked down as hard as possible.
Keep you friends close and your enemies closer. Make him work for a living. Make him head up DHS. It gets him out of the Senate where he can be replaced with a real Dem and if he bucks Obama he can be forced to resign.
I dont trust him, and so I dont want him chairing anything.
gathutk = the repubs turned into these thuglike trolls this election
Considering most other Democrats don't vote for what I consider to be the Democratic agenda, I don't think there's much point in keeping that turncoat Lieberman around; especially if it looks like Democrats will not reach a super-majority with or without him.
Lieberman needs to be banished to the boiler room, where he can do little harm.
I guess "unaccepatble" is the equivalent of "Some people have to play little games... you play yours."
Being from Chicago, let me just add that you should not put anything past Rhambo :)
Lieberman should be publicly humiliated by being locked in stocks on the Washington Mall and pelted with rancid tomatoes!
TraitorJoe is the Chairman of the Homeland Security Committee. If I understand correctly, his committee has oversight capacity for the executive branch. Now why on earth would the Democrats leave someone like him in a position such as that? His loyalty is clearly suspect and I can envision him making every effort to interfere with President Obama's administration. I would rather see the Democratic caucus have to work three times as hard to pass legislation across the aisle than keep that Quisling in place. He has no leverage and no credibility or face left.
He has proven himself untrustworthy, he has campaigned for the opposition and should have no power in the next administration. Give 'em hell Harry and throw his sorry a$$ out.
Gives new meaning to the word Chutzpah.
情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,美國aneros,rudeboy,英國rudeboy,英國Rocksoff,德國Fun Factory,Fun Factory,英國甜筒造型按摩座,甜筒造型按摩座,英國Rock Chic ,瑞典 Lelo ,英國Emotional Bliss,英國 E.B,荷蘭 Natural Contours,荷蘭 N C,美國 OhMiBod,美國 OMB,Naughti Nano ,音樂按摩棒,ipod按摩棒,美國 The Screaming O,美國TSO,美國TOPCO,美國Doc Johnson,美國CA Exotic,美國CEN,美國Nasstoy,美國Tonguejoy,英國Je Joue,美國Pipe Dream,美國California Exotic,美國NassToys,美國Vibropod,美國Penthouse,仿真按摩棒,矽膠按摩棒,猛男倒模,真人倒模,仿真倒模,PJUR,Zestra,適趣液,穿戴套具,日本NPG,雙頭龍,FANCARNAL,日本NIPPORI,日本GEL,日本Aqua Style,美國WET,費洛蒙,費洛蒙香水,仿真名器,av女優,打炮,做愛,性愛,口交,吹喇叭,肛交,魔女訓練大師,無線跳蛋,有線跳蛋,震動棒,震動保險套,震動套,TOY-情趣用品,情趣用品網,情趣購物網,成人用品網,情趣用品討論,成人購物網,鎖精套,鎖精環,持久環,持久套,拉珠,逼真按摩棒,名器,超名器,逼真老二,電動自慰,自慰,打手槍,仿真女郎,SM道具,SM,性感內褲,仿真按摩棒,pornograph,hunter系列,h動畫,成人動畫,成人卡通,情色動畫,情色卡通,色情動畫,色情卡通,無修正,禁斷,人妻,極悪調教,姦淫,近親相姦,顏射,盜攝,偷拍,本土自拍,素人自拍,公園露出,街道露出,野外露出,誘姦,迷姦,輪姦,凌辱,痴漢,痴女,素人娘,中出,巨乳,調教,潮吹,av,a片,成人影片,成人影音,線上影片,成人光碟,成人無碼,成人dvd,情色影音,情色影片,情色dvd,情色光碟,航空版,薄碼,色情dvd,色情影音,色情光碟,線上A片,免費A片,A片下載,成人電影,色情電影,TOKYO HOT,SKY ANGEL,一本道,SOD,S1,ALICE JAPAN,皇冠系列,老虎系列,東京熱,亞熱,武士系列,新潮館,情趣用品,情趣,情趣商品,情趣網站,跳蛋,按摩棒,充氣娃娃,自慰套,G點,性感內衣,情趣內衣,角色扮演,生日禮物,生日精品,自慰,打手槍,潮吹,高潮,後庭,情色論譠,影片下載,遊戲下載,手機鈴聲,音樂下載,開獎號碼,統一發票號碼,夜市,統一發票對獎,保險套,做愛,減肥,美容,瘦身,當舖,軟體下載,汽車,機車,手機,來電答鈴,週年慶,美食,徵信社,網頁設計,網站設計,室內設計,靈異照片,同志,聊天室,運動彩券,大樂透,威力彩,搬家公司,除蟲,偷拍,自拍,無名破解,av女優,小說,民宿,大樂透開獎號碼,大樂透中獎號碼,威力彩開獎號碼,討論區,痴漢,懷孕,美女交友,交友,日本av,日本,機票,香水,股市,股市行情, 股市分析,租房子,成人影片,免費影片,醫學美容,免費算命,算命,姓名配對,姓名學,姓名學免費,遊戲,好玩遊戲,好玩遊戲區,線上遊戲,新遊戲,漫畫,線上漫畫,動畫,成人圖片,桌布,桌布下載,電視節目表,線上電視,線上a片,線上掃毒,線上翻譯,購物車,身分證製造機,身分證產生器,手機,二手車,中古車,法拍屋,歌詞,音樂,音樂網,火車,房屋,情趣用品,情趣,情趣商品,情趣網站,跳蛋,按摩棒,充氣娃娃,自慰套, G點,性感內衣,情趣內衣,角色扮演,生日禮物,精品,禮品,自慰,打手槍,潮吹,高潮,後庭,情色論譠,影片下載,遊戲下載,手機鈴聲,音樂下載,開獎號碼,統一發票,夜市,保險套,做愛,減肥,美容,瘦身,當舖,軟體下載,汽車,機車,手機,來電答鈴,週年慶,美食,徵信社,網頁設計,網站設計,室內設計,靈異照片,同志,聊天室,運動彩券,,大樂透,威力彩,搬家公司,除蟲,偷拍,自拍,無名破解, av女優,小說,民宿,大樂透開獎號碼,大樂透中獎號碼,威力彩開獎號碼,討論區,痴漢,懷孕,美女交友,交友,日本av ,日本,機票,香水,股市,股市行情,股市分析,租房子,成人影片,免費影片,醫學美容,免費算命,算命,姓名配對,姓名學,姓名學免費,遊戲,好玩遊戲,好玩遊戲區,線上遊戲,新遊戲,漫畫,線上漫畫,動畫,成人圖片,桌布,桌布下載,電視節目表,線上電視,線上a片,線上a片,線上翻譯,購物車,身分證製造機,身分證產生器,手機,二手車,中古車,法拍屋,歌詞,音樂,音樂網,借錢,房屋,街頭籃球,找工作,旅行社,六合彩,婚友,單身聯誼,未婚聯誼,婚友,交友,交友,婚友社,婚友社,婚友社,大陸新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,越南新娘,外籍新娘,外籍新娘,台中坐月子中心,搬家公司,搬家公司,中和搬家,台北搬家,板橋搬家,新店搬家,線上客服,網頁設計,線上客服,網頁設計,植牙,關鍵字,關鍵字,seo,seo,網路排名,自然排序,網路排名軟體,交友,越南新娘,婚友社,外籍新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,交友,外籍新娘,視訊聊天,大陸新娘,婚友社,婚友,越南新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,視訊交友,外籍新娘,網路排名,網路排名軟體,網站排名優化大師,關鍵字排名大師,網站排名seo大師,關鍵字行銷專家,關鍵字,seo,關鍵字行銷,網頁排序,網頁排名,關鍵字大師,seo大,自然排名,網站排序,網路行銷創業,汽車借款,汽車借錢,汽車貸款,汽車貸款,拉皮,抽脂,近視雷射,隆乳,隆鼻,變性,雙眼皮,眼袋,牙齒,下巴,植牙,人工植牙,植髮,雷射美容,膠原蛋白,皮膚科,醫學美容,玻尿酸,肉毒桿菌,微晶瓷,電波拉皮,脈衝光,關鍵字,關鍵字,seo,seo,網路排名,自然排序,網路排名軟體,英語演講,托福,Toastmaster,
徵信社, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 外遇沖開, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信
徵信, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵信,徵信網, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵, 徵信公司, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵, 徵
^^ nice blog!! ^@^
徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 感情挽回, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 女子徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 外遇沖開, 抓姦, 女子徵信, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 女人徵信, 外遇
徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信網, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 女人徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,
徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 離婚, 外遇,離婚,
徵信, 外遇, 離婚, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信社, 征信, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,
^^ very nice
徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,
徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社,
外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇
外遇 外遇
外遇
外遇 外遇外遇
外遇
外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 ,
外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇
外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿喜帖囍帖卡片外遇外遇 外遇 外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇 外遇剖析 外遇調查 外遇案例 外遇諮詢 偷情 第三者外遇話題 外遇發洩 感情挽回 徵信社 外遇心態 外遇 通姦 通姦罪 外遇徵信社徵信社外遇 外遇 抓姦徵信協會徵信公司 包二奶 徵信社 徵信 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信 徵信 婚姻 婚前徵信 前科 個人資料 外遇 第三者 徵信社 偵探社 抓姦 偵探社 偵探社婚 偵探社 偵探社偵探家事服務家事服務家電維修家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務持久持久持久持久持久持久持久離婚網頁設計徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社外遇離婚協議書劈腿持久持久持久持久持久劈腿剖析徵信徵信社外遇外遇外遇外遇徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社
艾葳酒店經紀公司提供專業的酒店經紀, 飯局小姐,領檯人員,領台,傳播妹,或者想要到台北酒店、林森北路酒店,私人招待所,或者八大行業當酒店PT,酒店公關,酒店兼職,想去酒店上班, 日式酒店,制服酒店,ktv酒店,禮服店,整天穿得水水漂漂的禮服酒店,鋼琴酒吧當酒店領檯,酒店小姐,公關小姐??,還是想去制服店當上班小姐,水水們如果想要擁有打工工作、晚上兼差工作、兼差打工、假日兼職、兼職工作、學生兼差、兼差、打工兼差、日領工作、晚上兼差工作、酒店工作、酒店上班、酒店打工、兼職、兼差、兼差工作、酒店上班等,想了解酒店相關工作和特種行業內容,想找打工、假日兼職、兼差打工、或晚班兼職想擁有快速賺錢又有保障的工作嗎???又可以現領請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!
艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司工作環境高雅時尚，無業績壓力，無脫秀無喝酒壓力，高層次會員制客源，工作輕鬆，可日領、現領。
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已，對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有！艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪，不需擔心！只提供最優質的酒店打工,酒店上班,酒店打工環境、上班條件給水水們。
水水們妳有缺現金、有卡債、缺錢卡奴的煩腦嗎?想到日本留學日本打工嗎?妳是工讀生找工作??想要擁有高時薪又輕鬆的夜間兼職工作,打工機會和,假日打工,兼職工作日領假日打工的機會嗎??想實現夢想卻又缺錢沒錢嗎!??整天還在煩腦如何賺錢有什麼賺錢方法,和賺錢最快方法!?,想要打工,日領工作,短期打工,兼差工作,打工兼差工作嗎!?,
請加入我們艾葳酒店經紀公司工作單純輕鬆”高時薪”又可日領徵想要當傳播妹,上班小姐,酒店兼差,酒店兼職,歡迎學生打工,!!!
加入我們實現夢想就從現在開始^__^
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,
Post a Comment