Of all the polls out late tonight -- and I do hope to have some sort of midnight update to the polling thread -- the one that ought to give Democrats the most reassurance is the new poll out from NBC and the Wall Street Journal, which gives Barack Obama a 51-43 lead. What's to like about this particular survey?
Firstly, all of the interviewing was conducted today (Sunday) and yesterday, so it's about the freshest set of data that we have.
Secondly -- and this is an underrated factor -- the NBC/WSJ poll always behaves intuitively. It goes up when the other polls go up, and goes down when the other polls go down:Date Obama McCain
11/1 - 11/2 51 43
10/17 - 10/20 52 42
10/4 - 10/5 49 43
9/12 - 9/22 48 46
9/6 - 9/7 47 46
8/15 - 8/18 45 42
7/19 - 7/21 47 41
6/6 - 6/9 47 41
4/25 - 4/28 46 43
3/24 - 3/25 44 42
3/7 - 3/10 47 44
1/20 - 1/22 42 42
Those numbers very closely match our "supertracker" trendline at any given time period, albeit with perhaps a 1-2 point Obama house effect. (The antithesis of this is something like the IBD/TIPP poll, which had its best numbers of the year for Obama (+11) in mid-May, in the midst of the Jeremiah Wright crisis.)
Thirdly, it's hard to accuse the poll of partisanship, as it is co-directed by a Democratic pollster (Peter Hart) and a Republican one (Neil Newhouse), and is co-branded with a conservative-leaning newspaper and the most left-leaning of the three broadcast networks.
Finally, it includes cellphones (which may be part of the reason for the "house effect"). An updated version of the cellphone chart is below. (The polls that include cellphones are highlighted in orange, those that don't are in gray). Between the NBC poll and the final Gallup numbers, the discrepancy has now grown even greater: Obama leads by an average of 10.0 points in the cellphone polls, versus 5.1 in the landline-only's.
11.03.2008
Reassurance for Dems in NBC/WSJ Survey
by Nate Silver @ 12:50 AM...see also cellphones, pollsters
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302 comments
first? second time today?
second?
THE POLLS ARE TIGHTENING THE SKY IS FALLING
Can't believe I'm saying this, but... first?
Good points Nate about the poll and its correlation with your projections. Maybe younger people have the cellphones and that explains the discrepancy?. I support Obama so this is somewhat reassuring, but believe me I won't be reassured until November 5th and Obama having won. I can't wait to see tomorrow's projection though.
In short - Obama by a minimum of 4.5% or so, and by a maximum of 10% or so. Hell yeah.
Thoid, fourth, fifth . . . or worse?
The people who are nervous don't need reassurance about the polls reflecting public opinion, they need reassurance that what is shown in the polls will be reflected in turnout and won't be undermined by the Republicans' numerous methods of vote suppression.
I guess I will stay up until I see the polling update, otherwise I won't be able to sleep.
Hey, guys, did any of you see this 538 macro on LJ earlier today? It's a LOLNATE. And I think we all need it lately, too!
staying cool and steady here in seattle. Just keep going for another 48 hours, and we'll see what happens. Obama had the superior campaign and strategy, and the "wrong track" numbers were probably too much for McCain to overcome. Despite a last minute spasm of idiocy, the better campaign will likely prevail.
wv: matie.
I think you guys would get a kick out of this quiz:
http://www.brainfall.com/quizzes/are-you-more-qualified-than-sarah-palin/
wv: incelsot...
anyone with tonight's zogby numbers?
This cannot be over soon enough. I have been feeling fine about things lately, but logging on just now and seeing those four McCain victory maps was a jolt. I actually went cold. The time for comforting myself with positive polls is apparently gone. Now, it's just hold the hell on until Tuesday night.
The cell phone effect seems much more dramatic now than a few weeks ago. Does anyone have a good explanation for this? I mean, I can't see why it would make more of a difference nearer to the election time unless a lot of cell phone voters had been undecideds and they are now breaking for Obama. Other explanations?
When pooling the polls, Obama's margin above 50% is now statistically significant.
I hear ya Loralee. I haven't experienced this much stress since college finals 20 yearas ago.
Moving these to the new thread here:
Zogby Battleground Polls
PA
O: 53.7
M: 40.0
OH
O: 50.2
M: 43.9
VA
O: 50.7
M: 44.6
NV
O: 50.7
M: 42.9
FL
O: 47.5
M: 46.2
MO
O: 47.4
M: 45.7
NC
O: 47.7
M: 49.3
IN
O: 43.9
M: 49.1
That was good, thene, thanks.
first
There's only one person I want to see saying that, and his initials are BHO.
Zogby 11/3
O: 50.9
M: 43.8
Hhahaha ohnotheydidnt on here. God, I haven't been in that place since it was taken over by tween disney stars.
Anyway...
This is good news..for Richard Simmons!!!
I, Zenu-whose-real-name-is-not-zenu, feel 100% confident in naming senator Barack Obama our next president.
Demmies, I know it's hard. We're cynical, and we're use to losing, but we're determined, fair, and we're going to blow it up this Tuesday!
I suspect that the landline only polls will be revealed as egregiously flawed because of there inability to reach the a relevant sample.
I'm curious how pollsters are going to deal with cellphones that have "moved" e.g. Seattle phone numbers that "live" in LA.
Zogby is such a crazy loon...
He gives obama big leads when other polls start tightening up, he practically kills obamas lead when everything is expanding.
Does this guy want a medal for bucking the trend?
barry, I've even started having skin break-outs! How pathetic is that? My good friend and canvassing partner has a cold sore this week. ;-/
"Zogby Battleground Polls"
Are these Interactive "polls" (and therefore totally worthless) or regular Zogby poll (and thus only mostly worthless)? The Zogby website isn't available for some reason or I'd just go check for myself.
Zogby's battleground polls ... those would be nice, but I think Zogby is quite a bit more erratic in his state by states than his nationals.
and I do hope to have some sort of midnight update to the polling thread
Shorter Nate: KEEP RELOADING, MY PRETTIES!
*Reloads*
WV: Brjna — a small town in eastern Croatia.
Bring on the CELL PHONE voters! This helps - but the stomach still churns! Between Diebold voting machines flipping votes, voter misinformation in final days (fliers with 'umm, they changed voting to Nov. 5'), and registration challenges, it better be a win by a BIG margin!!!! Bring it on! Obamanos!
"AxmxZ said...
In short - Obama by a minimum of 4.5% or so, and by a maximum of 10% or so. Hell yeah."
I continue to predict that Obama will overperform the polls by 3-4% because of the enthusiasm and GOTV gaps between the campaigns. My Oct. 11 projection, that I still stick with:
Election eve poll average: Obama 52, McCain 44
Actual vote: Obama 55, McCain 40, Other 5
Electoral: Obama 387, McCain 151
The electoral is based on the assumption that with a 3% overperformance, Obama not only sweeps the "purples" (FL, OH, VA, CO, NV) that Nate calls critical but also the "whites" (NC, IN, MO, MT, ND) that have been within margin of error for a while; and maybe a few pinks (I gave him WV, which no longer looks right, and Omaha, a definite maybe; he also gets to 387 if he loses MT/WV/Omaha but gets AZ instead).
untensw: the opposite of feeling "tense"
Zogby is such a crazy loon...
Or possibly... A maverick?
somehow I missed that final Gallup poll earlier. I was out campaigning for Obama ;)
wow .. Obama ends Gallup's final poll up 11 in both LV models and +13 among registered voters? that's fantastic.
I think there is a real excitement among Obama supporters. We can't wait to vote on November 4th. We really like our guy. We think he'll be an excellent President. It's just a totally different feeling from the right wingers who are all about FEAR.
Real Americans have had it with fear. Dick Cheney can be delighted about John McCain all he wants. The rest of America is delighted about Barack Obama.
For weeks we have been told, "Don't party yet...we still gotta go out and vote!" So, for those of us who have already voted: is it finally OK for us to party?
Suckby, not Zogby.
The Zogby polls are not interactive ones, they were telephone
Looks like Obama is having a good Sunday night of polling.
Zogby, back up to 50%, even with the wack Friday sample still in there?
Nice!
OK, time to go to bed, back up at 6:30 AM to look at this crap again
Bob, you're too overzealous...
Besides, when you have a 15 point national lead, you have in excess of 400 EVs, hell, i dont think even reagan had 15 points when he blew out mondale.
Ok folks, I've decided that rather than hit F5 on my computer for the next 2 days, I'm jumping on a plane to Vegas and working the polls for the Obama campaign.
For you nervous nellies, get out and volunteer or make some calls. Let's bring this thing home.
I was looking at past data and I noticed this:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Nov01.html
First, Bush won 286 to Kerry's 252, thats a 55 point swing in 3 days. Now, you might say that the prediction (read aggregation) methods are different (w.r.t polls), but the real issue is that we are not even really doing prediction here - we are summarizing an estimate of what the electoral vote would be today or maybe at best tomorrow based on various estimates of that quantity by a variety of pollsters. We have no idea about how to predict that number two weeks from now based on factors which we can measure today, and that is the rub -- so don't take anything for granted, kick everyone in the ass and go vote!
Reassurance is always good, when Obama's line in the tracker is starting to look like the crane kick stance from the Karate Kid.
http://mail2.someecards.com/filestorage/soto_67.jpg widely appropriate for this place!
Bob X, this is not the time to be over-confident. We have to assume that we're down by 2% and everyone must do their part in getting out the vote.
The more I think about this, the more I think we are on the verge of a landslide here. Btw, what the hell is McCain doing campaigning in Tennessee tomorrow???
The Fruit Fly Dilemma: Palin's War on Science
emonkari,
NO! It's still bad juju! (Canvass instead.)
PPP NC update:
NC
Barack Obama's leading by about 250,000 votes in North Carolina right now...but folks planning to vote Tuesday overwhelmingly support McCain...Give me about half an hour.
Soon! Sit tight my lovelies!
Zogby must have been around +12 for the single day - did he release his single day info? Not that it has much meaning... But if it's good news I'll take it before bed.
Be very wary of Zogby: I will never forgive him for getting my hopes really up on Election Day 2004 that there would be a Kerry blowout!
These numbers are all over the place; almost to the point where they are pretty much useless.
Always. Be. Closing.
NO partying yet!
If you've already voted, get yur friends to the polls!
Or stand on a street-corner with a sign!
Or go to a swing state!
Or pick up a phone and call peeps!
Wait for it... wait for it...
FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here's the Zogby writeup (cutting out the tables):
"Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll: Obama is Where He Needs To Be, McCain is Not
Obama 50.9%, McCain 43.8%
Released: 11-03-2008
Subscribers can login here: https://interactive.zogby.com/clickon/index2.cfm
Next Release: 11-04-08, 1:00AM
UTICA, New York - As Election Day nears in the U.S. Presidential race, Democrat Barack Obama has increased his lead to 7.1 points over Republican John McCain, up from a 5.7 point advantage in yesterday's report, the latest Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby daily tracking poll shows.
Pollster John Zogby: "Barack Obama is where he needs to be and John McCain is not. In a multi-candidate race, assuming the minor candidates can win around 2%, 51% can win. Obama holds the groups that he needs and continues to hold a big lead among independents and his base. McCain seems to be holding his base without expanding it or moving into Obama's territory. A reminder: we will have another release based on polling through midnight Monday out early Tuesday."
Obama leads by 15 points among independents and wins 89% support among Democrats. He also leads by 16 points among those who have already voted and 27 points among those who have registered to vote in the last six months. Obama leads by 13 points among women and by just a point among men, as well as leading among all age groups with the exception of those age 55-69, who favor McCain by one point. He also strong leads among Hispanics and moderates.
McCain leads among whites by 13 points and wins 87% support from Republicans. He also leads among conservatives by 53 points, NASCAR fans by 12 points, and investors by seven points."
sedi they are phone polls so not the horrid interactive ones.
kjv mccain is in a twon right on the Virginias border its media market gos into Virginia
Zogby's final numbers tomorrow night will have the McCain +1 sample falling off and will likely show a huge movement towards Obama... maybe Drudge will put that up on his front page?
OK. So what site will be going up on Nov. 5 to help all of us 538 addicts to get over the withdrawal? Going cold turkey will be too much to handle.
We need a site that has only 3-4 updates per day for a while, then down to 1-2, then slowly fades away.
Seems like a big difference just to put down to cellphones; Is there anything else in their methods that might be causing this? I'm wondering whether pollsters that include cellphones might be generally plugged in to new trends and methodologies in a bunch of different ways, whereas the ones that don't tend to be more conservative across the board.
It will be interesting to see how the MSM outlets report the Zogby polls tomorrow.
"In a multi-candidate race, assuming the minor candidates can win around 2%, 51% can win."
Umm, doesn't 51% win regardless of the # of candidates.
Nobody parties till Tuesday night--east coast can start a little earlier.
Zogby had Obama -1 on Friday, Obama +10 on Saturday, so Obama must have been around +13 on Sunday.
So Obama's final Zogby tracker will likely be pretty impressive.
Re McCain Tennessee
He's airport hopping tomorrow (small crowds, wants local media coverage) - the town he hits apparently has TV that reaches VA & NC
Keep in mind, Obama's words: "Power does not concede". We must take nothing for granted. Tell someone where the polling location is. Ask someone if they need a ride to the polls. Take the day off from work and hold a sign at a busy intersection. Visibly demonstrate to your community that Obama is the choice of your community. We need to bring this one home.
Zogby actually told us his last 2 Obama nightly results: 47 and 52. I know those are rounded, but to get 50.9 for tonight's average requires a 53.7.
(if you use 47.49 and 52.49, to find the lowest score for tonight, you'd get 52.72, so that's the lowest it would be, assuming equal sized samples)
Verification: Osingsa, as in "osingsa, o do sing my good sir, of the pending good news "
@ broberts
"In a multi-candidate race, assuming the minor candidates can win around 2%, 51% can win."
Yeah that line cracked me up.
Maybe considering the MOE, then 51 is a safe place to be when 2% goes to the 3rd party.
pompol - what Palin supports waive at the polls hoping for the bias to fade away.
Karl
"I'm curious how pollsters are going to deal with cellphones that have "moved" e.g. Seattle phone numbers that "live" in LA."
Uh, I think you ask them "Where do you live?"
PEIXEGATO
BHO wears a nicotine patch - we need us a digital IV subdural pump feeding data directly into our veins 24/7...STAT
[I can quit anytime I want - no you can't - yes, I can...]
30 hours from now the polls become meaningless. It's time to GOTV!!
Zogby: "In a multi-candidate race, assuming the minor candidates can win around 2%, 51% can win."
What the hell does that mean? In what circumstances CAN'T 51% win?
Math is hard.
Are some of you really planning to go cold turkey on 538 after the call on Tuesday? I can guarantee that I will be checking in here through the end of the week, at least, reading all of Nate's post-game commentary -- and (please God) re-living our big win.
Nate you're the bomb!! Thanks for the update. Did you know you're a rock star on huffpo?
WV - Insilina: small southern town
"In what circumstances CAN'T 51% win?"
The Supreme Court could weigh in on a recount or something like that.
If PPP is correct about what it is going to say about NC, we should be prudent and assume that NC goes red.
I felt it was important to repost this Todd Dugdale polemic from earlier:
"You know what? I am sick of concern trolls. Don't believe the bloody polls, if that makes you feel wise. Great. Have fun playing the psuedo-intellectual. You are just too bloody smart for the likes of us poor, naive folks who have followed several months of polling. We are in awe of your analysis. Yes, the NH primary proves that Obama cannot possibly win anywhere, since leading in the polls just means that you will inevitably lose. And I've lost patience with smug wankers like you, rajpat21."
In other news, I officially have a itsy-bitsy crush on Todd. *Blush.*
LORALEE
first we have to survive without sleep or proper nourishment [and hygiene] for another 42+ hours
AND worry about whether all the servers will crash & burn from overuse on Nov 4th
now THAT would be a bitxch, no ???
then on Nov 5th we can sleep & then worry about the craving for that next 538 fix
Nate has created a large # of addicts - he is an enabler
No, Barry. We aren't gonna vote. We're all gonna sleep in, watch Matlock, make sandwiches.
I might just print up an I voted sticker so I don't have to leave the house.
In fact, I hear that Plouffe told supporters that if you lived west of the Mississippi, you didn't have to vote unless you were "going that way anyway."
That's a direct quote.
I got the impression that Obama was worried about having too many votes. Wanted to save some for 2012.
Can we have a moratorium on post that say nothing but "First!" or "First?"
If you have nothing to say then don't say it. There is nothing more annoying than a post that saids nothing.
Sorry but I had to say it.
Jim
Look @ the numbers:
OH +2
FL +1
NM +0
Now look at the numbers this year.
Now relax.
OK...OK...but while we volunteer, can we at LEAST sip on a Bartles and James? /wink
@ dcm
ROFL...I'll be waking up at night in cold sweats by Nov. 6.
But go vote.
Are we going to get a late night polling update?
RADDUDE
you were the 'first' to say that - well, on this thread anyway
but I 'second' your request for a moratorium on the stoopid need to post 1st with no serious comment
they should go back to the drudge/sludge site if they need to do that IMHO
emonokari,
I don't know about anyone else, but the only way I volunteer is when I am sipping Bartles and James.
80% of of 15 polls showing Obama with at LEAST a 5% lead, and even the Fox poll forced to give him 3%!
Keep your eye on VA on election night. If it goes Blue, pop the corks.
I found this posted on another forum.Reposting it since it looked very interesting:
Posted by "Rahul Oberoi" -
A question of perspective :
Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin, what if things were switched
around? Would the country's collective point of view be different? Could
racism be the culprit?
Ponder the following:
What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, including a three month old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?
What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?
What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class?
What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?
What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe
disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his standards?
What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?
What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?
What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?
What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?
(The Keating Five were five United States Senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the larger Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s.)
What if McCain was a charismatic, eloquent speaker?
What if Obama couldn't read from a teleprompter?
What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included
discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes?
What if Obama was the one who was known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?
What if Michelle Obama's family had made their money from beer distribution?
What if the Obamas had adopted a white child?
You could easily add to this list. If these questions reflected reality,
do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are?
This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes
positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in
another when there is a color difference.
Educational Background:
Barack Obama:
Columbia University - B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in
International Relations.
Harvard - Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude
Joseph Biden:
University of Delaware - B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
Syracuse University College of Law - Juris Doctor (J.D.)
vs.
John McCain:
United States Naval Academy - Class rank: 894 of 899
Sarah Palin:
Hawaii Pacific University - 1 semester
North Idaho College - 2 semesters - general study
University of Idaho - 2 semesters - journalism
Matanuska-Susitna College - 1 semester
University of Idaho - 3 semesters - B.A. in Journalism
Education isn't everything, but this is about the two highest offices in
the land as well as America's standing in the world
Just back from canvassing in Colorado - amazing ground game (met plenty of Obama people "in the field" and no McCain people at al; Sierra Club was runing their own separate GOTV for Obama too). Also, polls are encouraging. Yet, we still have to finish strong so, keep working until the polls close. :-))
Fox should be fun by tomorrow afternoon - they likely come in with a poll with a 7/8 point lead, and heads will start exploding early
The "First" thing is most likely something that people new to the site get wrapped up in. After a few days of seeing it, people generally get over it and get tired of it.
As long as you have new people coming to the site, the "first" thing will not die. It doesn't bother me, as there are usually several posts up by the time I check in, so I can just jump right past the "first" posts.
sip on emon
john evo said:
Keep your eye on VA on election night. If it goes Blue, pop the corks.
Where will you all be Tuesday night? I'll be at a friend's house with several other sweaty, sore-footed canvassers. Three bottles of champagne, at least.
ZENU [whose name is not Zenu]
are you supposed to only sip B&J ?
next you will be telling me you use a glass rather than draining the bottle[s] in one good slug...
keep away from my sangria !!1
sfergus, I assume you mean 7 or 8, not 7/8?
B&J? Nah, I'm reaching for the 2L bottle of Sun Country!
@rumplestiltskin
As Obama would say: "We don't need that. We just need you to vote."
7 or 8, yes
their poster will want to be in the ballpark
Gotta love that cell phone effect. Every pollster is going to have to reevaluate their methodology after this. I've said it before, but I'll repeat it -- these are the polls that will turn out to be the most accurate:
(1) those that include cellphones
(2) those with longer callbacks (ideally 7 days to cancel any periodic weekly bias)
(3) those that rely on larger stratified samples instead of weighting by party ID
The fact is that these daily trackers are, to me, coming awfully close to GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) -- the sample is too small and has to rely on party ID weighting OR ludicrously small & unstable subsamples, doesn't include cell phone (usually), and doesn't have a long enough callback window to get a representative sample (those complicating the problems of using a small sample).
Yes, they "react" to events very quickly -- but that reaction is horribly misread due to these factors. It would be far better to get it right than to get it early -- but, of course, that doesn't fit with the profit model of the 24/7 news world, so they'd rather have random noise so they can talk about "tightening" races and "shifts in opinion" that are completely meaningless.
That' why Zogby still has a job. He does exactly what the chumps in the media want: He produces a narrative full of unexpected twists and turns, and they don't care they he's just inventing explanations for random noise.
* sigh *
Also, let me repeat my prediction from last week:
Obama 54, McCain 44, Nader 1, Barr 1
Obama 375 EV, McCain 163.
Taking all bets! =)
'first' is indeed tiresome & trite
but better than when a certain poster kept jumping the gun & start every thread telling Nate he was a wanker
oops... guess i let on that I have inhabited this 538 site waaaaaaaay too long
what happened to the summer & fall ???
Hey man, maybe I enjoy sipping all my alcoholic beverages? There's nothing more relaxing after a long stressful day then soaking in a cotton-candy scented bubble bath and sipping grey goose vodka in a plastic wine glass.
Últimas noticias de Zogby en español!
Zogby no sabe na' ... que supiera todo.
Sedi said...
The cell phone effect seems much more dramatic now than a few weeks ago. Does anyone have a good explanation for this? I mean, I can't see why it would make more of a difference nearer to the election time unless a lot of cell phone voters had been undecideds and they are now breaking for Obama. Other explanations?
Yeah, most models have a likely voter model... cell phone people would probably be kicked out of a liely voter model but since Obama has been emphasis on getting out spotty voters his numbers are going up because people have already voted etc.
Goptrust.com just aired a TV attack ad against Obama linking him to Rev Wright this Sunday night (11/2) at 10:35 pm PDT in Seattle, WA.
This is the first attack ad against Obama I have seen in Seattle. The only logic I can see is the GOP is trying to cut Obama's coat tails for the state elections.
Goptrust.com => nationalrepublicantrust.com
Hey,
Nate is on CNN (DL Hughley)
PPP NC
O 50
M 49
NC state offices polls are up on PPP. Hopefully presidential poll will be up soon.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/11/02/1627618.aspx
some insight into those Mason-Dixon polls... from msnbc, of course.
Grey Goose and plastic---nothing like it.
Moneer-famous painter of French/Dutch heritage.
Nevermind, I can't read more than one blog post apparently.
O 50
M 49
Hagan 51
Dole 44
NC Senate (PPP)
Hagan ahead 51:44
GaMeS
IF your prediction comes to pass @ 54-44-1-1
then you are too conservative in the EV apportionment IMHO
a 10% win would most likely mean Obama gets 400EVs +/- [possibly 406]
at that spread, GA & MT & ND & maybe even AZ are all likely to turn blue too along with the other red states in play like MO & IN & NC to go along with FL & OH & VA & CO & NV & NM & IA
right now, if this thing comes to pass as you project, McCain may only hold the 132 EV RED base states as shown on RCP
Pollster John Zogby: "Barack Obama is where he needs to be and John McCain is not."
::PAUSE::
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Ok, I'm going to assume NC is going red after that PPP result.
Nate:
GET OFF THE TV AND GIVE US SOME MORE UPDATES!!!!
NOW!!!!!
Let us not forget the most important thing. VOTE!!!
Get your asses to the polls. Make sure you vote. Make sure you family votes. Make sure your friends vote. It doesn't matter if your state is in the tank or not. Get out there like we've got McCain's numbers.
VOTE!!!!
Loralee - I'm in Los Angeles and will be hunkered down in my living room with friends and family members.
We have a big party to go to on Saturday - it was planned months ago as a joint grievance or a grand celebration - whatever the outcome. It's looking more and more like it will be a fun party!
Enjoy your election day. Make sure everyone you know votes. If you have friends or relatives in any swing states, give them a call. Tell them - "because you are important to me, I want you to go vote". No one should let up until the polls close, even though it looks great. We know what can happen in this "democracy" of ours.
alybaba, Obama has a better ground game, he overpreformed in the NC primary and in the south in general and Kay Hagan may have some reverse coattails... Republican bullshit cost them in 2006 and a little more is going to cost their brand some more in 08
alybaba, I wouldn't be so sure. O is ahead among early voters and McCain ahead among hypothetical voters. The latter might not show up on Tuesday or not bother with long lines.
John -
I got this ad today in Illinois on CNN. I'm quite close to the Indiana border, so I assume it was aimed there
Hope and pray for sh*tty weather in NC on Tuesday.
I don't get it....last week national lead of obama was slipping but he was improving in state polls....
but...now he is improving in nantioanl lead...but slipping considerably in state polls....can someone explain to me...what the heck is happening....
I can't take anymore polls...just want to see McShame defetated..ASAP
madamerica, there is supposed to be rain in the Carolinas and VA on Tuesday
Thank God!
I nervously get out of bed.
Check Zogby the insane pollster - great news for Obama, over 50%
Check PA mcall tracker - big move to Obama 54-41
Check PPP polling - all good news in VA, PA, MI, huge jump in NM, OR, and a ten point lead in CO
Going back to bed, I will sleep well and dream happy dreams of an Obama administration.
GOTV! Make it real!
YEAH BABY!
some perpective:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry.html
PPP #'s are just fine for Obama & great for dumping Lizardbreath Dole
Obama with 50% is a winning prop with strong GOTV & early voting banked & those hidden demos in the DEMs favor [AA turnout, cellphone, enthusiasm, etc]
it might be close - but looks like NC can join VA & FL & hopefully GA as the south atlantic coast turns blue
Judging by the numbers, the hate ads don't seem to be having much effect.
Looks like everyone is woried about NC - we will win there if the triangle turns out
These pols are phenomenal, the lead is solidifying. Thank you Jesus, now if I just believed in you...
There have been no polls in the past month that have stopped me thinking this will be an Obama win by a massive amount.
Everything from McCain/Palin has been negative - everything from Obama positive. Prior to Palin, McCain had a chance - a week after his VP selection, he was gone.
I remember the 1964 election & I think this will be the largest democrat win since 1964. I definitely think Obama will outscore most of the polls - and we will have the reverse Bradley effect to talk about in future years
I think the best way to make polls better is to make them larger. All the options, adjustments and whatever will never overcome the random selection of a particular group of people. I am intrigued as to how an individual pollster can be leaning one way - I can only assume this can be done by the wording of the questions. Is there another way & how is it determined (apart from looking at the final election results) if a pollster "leans" one way or the other?
Meanwhile, I have spent way too much time here over the past few weeks - many thanks for all the information
JUST
the news is all good so get some sleep for all of us
but the PA Morning Call tracker is only 52-46
which is still a nice +6 spread with Obama stable @ 52% [Mac gets the UNDs]
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN3134134020081103
...a little more reassurance.
I was doing okay.....not freaking out......until I saw this ad:
A RNC PAC is spending $2 million to run this Wright ad thru election day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3IAjphhw6E&eurl=http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/race-tinged_attack_ads_start_f.php
I usually trust PPP and I know that there are tons of Reagan Democrats in NC, but their projection doesn't jive with the numbers out the Secretary of State's office, IMHO.
Whatever! NC is simply icing on the cake.
Damn, you are correct, the Muehlenberg college site is still posting Oct. 30. It is a bit late, sorry.
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/studorgs/polling/
I have a question: how do any of the pollsters count those who have voted early; are they completely blind to this; do they count them as a highly-likely voter; etc...
Zogby: "In a multi-candidate race, assuming the minor candidates can win around 2%, 51% can win."
It's all about the EV's. You can win the popular vote and lose the election. (Remember? ;-)
However with 51%, and %2 percent going to a 3rd party, it'd be real hard not to get the 270 EV's needed.
Wright is old news to anyone with a brain, and the people with brians are voting dem this year. Relax, get some sleep.
Get out the vote and this nightmare of Bush ends Tues.
Kyle Wade Grove, they count them no matter what and some of the pollsters tell you how many of the percent have voted and how they voted
I don't get it....last week national lead of obama was slipping but he was improving in state polls....
but...now he is improving in nantioanl lead...but slipping considerably in state polls....can someone explain to me...what the heck is happening....
I guess the lag might exist after all. On 10/29 Wed, Ras had the national margin at 3%. That was the closest in a month. That tightening has been reflected in the state polls this weekend. Now that the national gap seemed to be widening again over the weekend, we can say at least most states will not be tightening any further.
kyle-
Most pollsters ask folks if they have already voted. They then use that info to hone their likely voter model. Some even report the data.
Nate cell phone post is very reassuring. We can sleep tonight, this is the best news we could hope for going into Tues.
For Nate's first post-election poll:
1. How many hours per day did you spend at fivethirtyeight.com?
2. How many hours of sleep per day did you miss?
3. Are you still employed?
4. Still married?
5. Again living in parents' basement?
6. How many times did you post "first"?
PA Morning Call tracker bottom left O+7 52-45
So Sunday's Polls are 3 days after the Obamamercial, I guess that money gave him a slight bounce
Everyone yells at me when I post it, but there is lag in state polling even now when the states are being polled like crazy. It really doesnot make a ton of sense, but the data still seems to show it.
DCM in FL said...
GaMeS
IF your prediction comes to pass @ 54-44-1-1
then you are too conservative in the EV apportionment IMHO
a 10% win would most likely mean Obama gets 400EVs +/- [possibly 406]
at that spread, GA & MT & ND & maybe even AZ are all likely to turn blue too along with the other red states in play like MO & IN & NC to go along with FL & OH & VA & CO & NV & NM & IA
right now, if this thing comes to pass as you project, McCain may only hold the 132 EV RED base states as shown on RCP
Oh, I could definitely see it hitting 400+ given that spread ... the question is how resistant ND, MT, GA, and AZ will ultimately be to flipping.
My hunch last week was that these states would all come close without quite going over the top, and that even the deep red states would be a lot closer than people are imagining now. In other words, I was thinking that Obama gets a lot of running up the score but not quite as many flips.
If I'd had the benefit of the last week of state polling when I made that prediction (which make MT, ND, AZ, GA, and even SD look a lot more possible), I would have put the EV projection a bit higher (probably ~390-400) because those look like more viable pickups.
I think I described my ranges to a friend as being an 8- to 12-point spread for Obama, with anywhere from 338 to 411 EVs -- I'd call that my 95% confidence interval. =)
Still, for a prediction made something like 10 days out from the election (I don't recall the precise day), I'll stand by the 54-44, 375 EV prediction. It's going to closer than what most pundits are predicting. =)
I'm afraid of this whole Wright business. It's old news, sure, but it just might make some of the more reluctant Obama supporters uncomfortable with him again. I'm especially afraid of the potential impact in PA, VA, and NC. It just might be effective.
I think their will be little resistance to flipping at the state level. I want southern states, I want to kill the yellow dog dems that do not vote dem in federal races once and for all - LA poll last week with McCain +3 was huge.
boxydancer-
The negative 427 ads are really not showing up in polling, so hopefully both our concerns about the negative ads will be unfounded.
The other change this year is all the info on the web to counter negative ads, they might not be as effective going forward.
I'm quite skeptical of any poll lag. Obama's #s have been stable for several weeks now. For the most part so have McCain's - PA excepted.
I shredded Zogby this morning, he seems more sane in his commentary. Thank you John!
Even AP says it's Obama:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27488202/
broberts-
Both true and false. There was a move in the national trackers to McCain last week, and even pollster and Nate noted it, so, no, the race has not been perfectly stable. That said, the numbers from yesterday and tonight seem to show that has ended.
The state polling has been pretty stable, but for a few crazy Mason-Dixon polls used to scare dems yesterday.
Looks like PA is solidifying around 5-7 points, about what Gore got there and double to triple Krry's 2.5% margin.
It's all good.
Taking melatonin and forcing myslef to get a few more hours.
Night night.
OK so the RCP average had Bush up by 1.5 on election eve...
That's good news, right?
I'M SO FUCKING NERVOUS MY HANDS ARE SHAKING!
I can't even imagine what tomorrow's going to be like.
the PA morning tracker poll has up ticked by +1 for Obama. Good news.
el oso-
Look at this graph of 2000, 2004, 2008. We are in the better shape than Bush ever was one day day out - by a wide margin.
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/campaign_08_vs_04_and_00_updat.php
The Republicans CAN AND WILL steal 5% of the vote through voter suppression and rigged machines. If we do not redouble our efforts for the next two days and acheive a landslide, we will fail. Now is no time to rest. We cannot afford to lose this one.
I just made another donation, if you can spare anything, do it:
https://donate.barackobama.com/page/contribute/standardmagnet
Make 100 calls tomorrow through the online phone bank:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/votercontact/overview
Yes we can!
Where is Nates second poll update? Maybe he waited for the PPP polls before running it.
wv - drilluna - see drilling really is a sexual reference. Is "drill, baby, drill" directed at Sarah's boyfriend or her daughter's boyfriend?
What's worse than being an American who wants Obama to win the election?
Being an Australian who desperately wants Obama to win the election but can do two-thirds of three-fifths of nothing to contribute to the result.
Soothe the nerves by voting and volunteering and I will keep wearing my lucky Statue of Liberty pendant. :)
IN and MO being red on Nate's map still pisses me off. Lets win them, push through the finish line.
Nate-
This is a really small detail, but the actual poll results of the PEW poll were +7 Obama. The +6 is what their projection was when allocating undecideds.
It still puts it as a slight outlier for the cell-phone polls, but 7 is slightly closer to 10 than 6. ;)
@justsomeguy
Thank you, my man. I needed that...
The problem with living on the other side of the friggin earth is that my nights are your wee morning hours.
I called my FL electorate board 3 times to make sure my registration was valid, my vote had been received, and that everything was ok. Perhaps my paranoia is getting the better of me.
but logging on just now and seeing those four McCain victory maps was a jolt. I actually went cold.
??? So if you saw a map that was all red, you would freak out?
These are all maps that are very unlikely to happen. Sheesh, people.
wv: antriver -- Leiningen's nemesis
I'm sure that McCain will say "STOP these wright ads!! By Wednesday"
el oso-
Thanks for putting in the effort to vote, it is appreciated.
soccer mum, you can make phone calls... use skype and it is very cheap...
"El Oso said...
I called my FL electorate board 3 times to make sure my registration was valid, my vote had been received, and that everything was ok. Perhaps my paranoia is getting the better of me."
El Oso, we're talking about FloriDUH! Remember 2000? I trust those GOP State Officials about as far as I can throw them... and I have a very bad back!
Check 2, 3, 4 times! Hell, keep checking every hour!
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the weather on election day in NC is going to be awful. Heavy rain should keep turnout down for much of the state. My sense is that this should help Obama, who has a large lead in people who have voted early, but who knows.
If there is some consolation for the McCain camp, extreme western NC should be in better shape weather-wise than the central or eastern part of the state.
So no update tonight?
BTW, it was good of Nate to take the higher road re: Zogby.
The internet has finally changed the way elections will be fought. Dirty tactics (with a smiling public face) cannot be swept under the rug ever again. Candidates must now own up to their dirty tricks.
I love comments like:
You are forgetting
A. PUMAs
B. Racists
C. The Reverend Wright effect
Etc.
Nothing is being "forgotten". Unless you think that people are polling one way, then walking into the polling booth and suddenly remembering that they are a PUMA!
All of these final polls that are starting to come in have consistently been within a very few points of the actual numbers on election days. There have been no instances when numerous polls showed a candidate with an 8 or 9 point lead 30 hours prior to the election, only to have him end up losing by a point.
This race is over. We just have to wait for the final numbers and see which polls were closest to the actual margin.
Good idea Derek.
Time zones are a killer though - it is 6.40pm here now and the middle of the night there and by next morning there it will be bedtime here.
Mostly I just surf the usual websites and log on here so that you all know how much this election and your votes mean to the whole world. Our entire country wants Obama to win!!
It is Melbourne Cup Day here tomorrow so alcohol with soothe my nerves somewhat.
One day of polling to go, and McGramps/Failing have not led in a single national poll in the last 6 week out of the hundreds upon hundreds taken. NOT A SINGLE ONE!
@justsomeguy
It is my duty. I will never let myself live down the shame of being a 20-year-old fool who voted for Nader in 2000 in FL! We were all a little too high back then...
@SHERWICK
The guys running Brevard county election board are Dems this year, I believe. Not only that but Obama is apparently placing 8 bajillion lawyers all around the state.
john evo-
These models do presume a bigger turnout of voters, so complacency is likely the one thing that can still lose this for Obama. Vote and GOTV! I don't care if there is a freakin' blizzard where you are - VOTE and GOTV!
NBC never had McCain ahead even when almost everyone else did after the GOP convention. I'm surprised NBC says Barack lost 2 points since their poll 2 weeks ago.
Barack's ceiling is 53%. Nate has it at 52%.
So on meat the press, chuck todd said that he thinks the north is more racist than the south because the south has been dealing with racism and the north really hasn't. So I think NC is in the bag
I think that Chuck Todd comment is insane. Has he ever been to the south?
I followed the 2000 election at least as closely as this one, including the GOP stealing AFTER election day.
I watched All The President's Men again yesterday.
I do not trust the GOP at all.
justsomeguy said...
... I want to kill the yellow dog dems that do not vote dem in federal races...
Please do not confuse Yellow Dog Democrats (I'm one) with Blue Dog Democrats. Yellow Dog Dems vote a straight party ticket. Blue Dog Dems jump the party line. You lose your status as a Yellow Dog Dem if you do jump the party line. Don't let the historic shift of Yellow Dog Dems from right to left confuse you.
The Fat Lady is on route to Chicago.
betfare.com and intrade.com got every state right in 2004 according to HP http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keith-thomson/the-most-accurate-electio_b_140181.html
They both currently have Florida, Ohio, North Carolina and Virginia for Obama.
wv - trugar - a disgusting concotion of trans fats and sugar served at the Republican Convention.
"El Oso, we're talking about FloriDUH! Remember 2000? I trust those GOP State Officials about as far as I can throw them... and I have a very bad back!
Check 2, 3, 4 times! Hell, keep checking every hour!"
Dude, don't say things like that. The poor guy is about to have a coronary.
El Oso... this is going to sound trite, but BREATHE. Seriously, just stop everything and breathe. Clear your head. Deep breaths, long exhales.
You are killing yourself working yourself up that way.
Your health is more important than your vote. Your health allows you to have many votes for many years.
Everything is going to be cool. These are awesome happy days. Enjoy them.
@john evo
"There have been no instances when numerous polls showed a candidate with an 8 or 9 point lead 30 hours prior to the election, only to have him end up losing by a point."
There has never been widespread fraud as I believe we will see on Tuesday. The shenanigans 4 years ago were just a warm up for the amount of cheating that corrupt republicans will perpetrate this election.
Any state where Obama's lead is less than 5 points is very likely to be subverted. That is why we cannot stop fighting until Obama has won.
justsomeguy... Obama overpreformed in the south and underpreformed in PA, OH, etc... The only thing that saved him was that he was from the midwest... Obama is the perfect lucky candidate, incumbents suck this year and Hill and McCain are both quasi incumbents and he is from the midwest which has put WI, MI, IA, in the bag. God smiles on BHO
Sounds like the pollsters all underestimated the early turnout effect from the Obama camp. I think the question of the day is: why would they assume that the Obama GOTV has just stopped before election day and we can assume a traditional model tomorrow after the crazy early voting? I know it's tough to estimate, but if Obama's camp were to replicate their early vote with massive GOTV tomorrow... what might the picture look like? 400+?
Very racist here in Fl. The only difference is that in Fl., racism is open and allowed, racism is not open or allowed in the NE or W.
Because of that, we will not have a Bradley effect here. However, a Bradley effect is possible in the NE or W.
I'm not saying it will happen, but it is possible.
@Derek
Nothing's in the bag, brother. Nothing.
Get your family out, get your friends out, grab a truck, get them to the polls. We need every last vote in every last state!!
I might be in NZ but I'm such a junkie this cycle it's stupid. I've called every friend I have in the states, every family member, and I've actively been trying to turn a McCain supporter. Doubt that last one will happen, especially considering that loves WND.com, but maybe I put in a seed of doubt.
Nate, I can't wait for your final prediction!
Firstly congratulations - this is an extraordinarily good site that provides a great service.
I just wish you could get rid of some of the sillier posts.
In regard to the statement that the subject poll "behaves intuitively" I have to say that I am not sure that this is an attribute a poll can have. I put this incorrect usage down to what must be exhaustion on your part at this point of time.
Assuming Obama does win, maybe one way to keep going with all this is to start a movement over there to reform the voting rules and maybe nationalise them and put an independent body in charge.
Saves on future coronaries and ensures Moose Barbie will have no chance in 2012.
@John
I'm ok, honestly. Just get a little worked up thinking about this election.
Yoga, Tai Chi, green tea, and a fat doob keep me plenty sane.
soccer mum, that requires a constitutional amendment so it will be tough. However, it may be a good time to start one, even though it will take decades to ratify.
If i assign to Obama every state that Nate has him to win by at least 95%, Obama will be elected with 270 EV. Yet, the overall winning percentage is below that, at 93%. How come? How can it be lower than 95%?
I'm doing my GOTV in Oklahoma and Texas, still hoping for the democrats to win back the state senate in Oklahoma
There was a story here this week of a Tampa GOP official sending out an E-mail in which he said 4 times "and he's black"
@Soccer Mum
Were you a Rudd supporter? We have our national elections here in NZ on Saturday. Methinks Auntie Helen is getting the boot after 3 terms as PM.
I can't seem to give a toss about the NZ election though. All my
energy is tied up in my absentee ballot sitting in a FL elections board; all alone, scared, just wanting to be opened and counted.
In regard to the statement that the subject poll "behaves intuitively" I have to say that I am not sure that this is an attribute a poll can have. I put this incorrect usage down to what must be exhaustion on your part at this point of time.
It's not incorrect usage, it's a perfectly acceptable --except to pseudo-pendants -- way to say "behaves according to our intuitions", since it obviously doesn't refer to it behaving according to its own intuitions.
I'd like to make an observation in regards to polling accuracy. The following quote is from USA TODAY / Gallup's writeup.
"Gallup says the group it surveyed is mostly made up of voters who fit its "traditional" model of those likely to show up at the polls. Also among the 2,472 are some who have already voted -- including first-timers.
The results are identical to Gallup's "expanded" pool of likely voters, which adds more first-time voters than the survey firm used in the past."
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/11/final-usa-today.html
In this analysis, they determined that their "traditional" model was wrong and the "expanded" model which went purely by stated intent to vote was much more accurate and now that so many HAVE voted, the traditional model is nearly perfectly matched up with the expanded one. And keep in mind that the expanded model was always higher for Obama than the traditional ones. That is why both models now show +11 for Obama.
"If i assign to Obama every state that Nate has him to win by at least 95%, Obama will be elected with 270 EV. Yet, the overall winning percentage is below that, at 93%. How come? How can it be lower than 95%?"
If the chance of A happening is 95% and the chance of B happening is 95%, what is the chance of A AND B happening? It's not 95%. It's .95 x .95 = 90%
Blogger Christopher said... "Sounds like the pollsters all underestimated the early turnout effect from the Obama camp."
Perhaps, but I find it interesting that the total early vote so far is numerically on par with 2004. I suspect that this indicates that the gotv in non-battleground states either isn't as strong as it could be or voter interest really isn't that high outside the battlegrounds. This later hypothesis I think may be somewhat born out by voter intentions I read in . . . darn, can't remember the poll but it had intent to vote at 89% this elections, just +5 from 2004.
Thanks Sherwick.
If the record for passing amendments there is anything like here then it will be tough. Referenda almost always fail here.
But it just all seems so frustrating and amateurish and I guess I don't understand why things are the way they are. I was so angry when Bush stole Florida.
It is a matter of total wonderment that a nation that prides itself on being a democracy, can put a man on the moon etc. cannot run an election properly.
Chris said...
"It is a matter of total wonderment that a nation that prides itself on being a democracy, can put a man on the moon etc. cannot run an election properly."
Sadly, we cannot put a man back on the moon right now either. The bottom line on elections is that the party that has had power the most got used to it and so allowed it to corrupt them to the point where retaining that power was more important than serving the people democratically.
El Oso
I did vote for Kevin07 but it didn't count as the dropkicks in my electorate of New England keep re-electing an independent as their local member even though he has no say in what happens in Canberra.
But I wanted to be able to say that I had been on the right side of that election. John Howard has been a disgrace ever since Tampa and Iraq.
"Perhaps, but I find it interesting that the total early vote so far is numerically on par with 2004."
Broberts, you are wrong. If the numbers look similar right now it's because many of the states do not report the numbers. If you look on a state-by-state basis, you could argue a 60-80% increase -- sometimes double. GWU's site confirms this.
PPP is going to release MT and FL votes soon. He says of MT: Another state with a huge Obama lead banked where it will come down to whether the GOP can get enough people out tomorrow.
OH SNAP! I can't wait to see the numbers.
Chris... we can run an election properly but there are people who want certain rules one way and others who want it another way to benefit themselves; putting a man on the moon was a common goal...
Oh, Hunter S. Thompson, the last great political journalist, you took your life depressed over Kerry's loss... what I would do to read your faxes to Carville these days.
Hunter might say something akin to: "make the pigfuckers pay with blood...", which might offend your liberal sensibilities, yet that is what the GOP deserves: years in the wilderness, if not outright public humiliation.
Progressives with teeth is what this country needs. Let 'em call you socialist. I smell blood. Keep 'em scared.
"Fuck those people." -HST
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