11.01.2008

On Pennsylvania Being "In Play"

Tonight on MSNBC with David Shuster, I referred to Pennsylvania as being "in play". I've also implied similar things in the polling threads over the past couple of days. Since we are showing John McCain as having only about a 2% chance to win Pennsylvania, I've had a couple of readers write in to ask whether I'm contradicting myself. Certainly we would not ordinarily refer to a state as "in play" when one of the candidates trails by 6 to 10 points, and there but a few days to go until the election.

What I want to make clear is that whenever I refer to Pennsylvania as being "in play", you should imagine those little quotation marks around my words. You should also imagine that I'm speaking in the conditional tense. Were the national race to tighten by 5 points or so, then Pennsylvania might actually be in play, rather than being "in play". (Actually, that might have been the subjunctive rather than the conditional, but never mind). We're very focused on those scenarios wherein the national race does in fact tighten substantially, because those are the only scenarios wherein John McCain can win.

What Pennsylvania isn't going to do -- at least I don't think -- is move 5 or 6 or 7 points to the McCain side while everything else stays put. It's a pretty middle-of-the-road state, with its share of big cities and small towns and rural areas and everything in between (this is why it's a swing state in the first place). An idiosyncratic state like West Virgina or New Mexico might occasionally come completely untethered from the national trends, but Pennsylvania is not very likely to. Nor is it the sort of state that's likely to catch anybody surprise (unless Obama supporters are dumb enough to become complacent). It's a big, Democratic machine state, and one where Obama has 78 field offices open, many of which have been open since the primary in April.

Pennsylvania has at various times this year ranged from about 2 points behind Obama's national numbers to 5 points ahead of them. If Obama is at about a +7 nationally, I'd expect him so be somewhere between a +5 and a +12 in PA ... that's about the range permissible by its demographics. Anything outside of that range, and I'd tend to think that the poll in question is an outlier.

269 comments

michael Rowe said...

This is just getting stupid...

From the AP:

GROSSE POINTE FARMS, Mich. - A woman refused Halloween candy to children whose parents support Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama.

Shirley Nagel passed out candy Friday on the scary U.S. holiday, but only to those who shared her support for Republican presidential candidate John McCain and his vice presidential pick Sarah Palin.

Television station WJBK reported that a sign posted outside Nagel's house in suburban Detroit served this notice to children seeking treats: "No handouts for Obama supporters, liars, tricksters or kids of supporters."

Nagel told WJBK that "Obama's scary." When asked about children who were turned away empty-handed and crying, she said: "Oh well. Everybody has a choice."

John David said...

Zogby insults Nate in his write up: " A special note to blogger friends: calm it down. Lay off the cable television noise and look at your baseball cards in your spare time. It is better for your (and everyone else's) health."


Need more proof that Zogby is an idiot?

CloudyFuture said...

Zogby
11/02

O: 49.5
M: 43.8
++++++++++
well you can round down Obamas # and round up mccains # and make it:

O: 49
M: 44

and make it closer like foxnews did with their poll the other day.....

TX_Democrat said...

From Zogby

"Obama has consolidated his lead over McCain. His single day lead today was back to 52%-42%. He leads by 10 among independents and has solidified his base. He leads among Hispanics by38 points, African Americans by 88, 18-24 year olds by 36, 18-29 year olds by 25, 25-34 year olds by 16, women by 8, and men by 3. He has a 17 point lead among those who have already voted, 22 by those who have registered to vote in the past 6 months, Moderates by 34, Catholics by 10. He even receives 21% support among Conservatives.

"So what happened to give McCain a one-point lead in the one-day polling on Friday? It was a day of consolidation for him, too. He had been losing support among key groups and began to regain some of his own base. He now leads by 21 points among NASCAR fans, 9 among investors, 6 among voters in armed forces households, and 2 among voters over 65 years old.

"Remember, as I said yesterday, one day does not make a trend. This is a three-day rolling average and no changes have been tectonic. A special note to blogger friends: calm it down. Lay off the cable television noise and look at your baseball cards in your spare time. It is better for your (and everyone else's) health."

obsessed said...

This would be past subjunctive and conditional:

If McCain were smart, he would ditch Palin and choose a competent running mate.

"were" is subjunctive and "would ditch" is conditional.

that much I'm sure of

KIC said...

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/dozens_of_call_center_workers.php

Call Center worker walk out rather than read McCain smear script

Tom said...

Pollster John Zogby: "Obama has consolidated his lead over McCain. His single day lead today was back to 52%-42%. He leads by 10 among independents and has solidified his base. He leads among Hispanics by38 points, African Americans by 88, 18-24 year olds by 36, 18-29 year olds by 25, 25-34 year olds by 16, women by 8, and men by 3. He has a 17 point lead among those who have already voted, 22 by those who have registered to vote in the past 6 months, Moderates by 34, Catholics by 10. He even receives 21% support among Conservatives.

"So what happened to give McCain a one-point lead in the one-day polling on Friday? He now leads by 21 points among NASCAR fans...

Why does Zogby break down his poll by NASCAR fans? How much of the electorate do they make up? NASCAR fans are hardly a progressive people, I would expect McCain to have all the NASCAR fans, not just a 21% majority.

Voice of Reason said...

McCain was very funny on SNL. He's actually funnier than Obama. You should check out the Alfred Smith dinner on youtube. Obama and McCain both had some great lines.

Be nice to McCain, everybody. He's going to lose, and we'll need his help in the Senate on global warming. He's really not a bad guy. He's just surrounded by bad people right now, and he knows he'll be dead in the water if he pisses off the Republican base.

obsessed said...

His single day lead today was back to 52%-42%.

And that's on a night that most of his supporters were drunk silly and running around town in Sarah Palin costumes

bobnsj said...

Does anyone know where any of tonight's SNL videos are posted?

Zenu said...

Got an email for a rally on Monday in Manassas, VA for Obama. I have yet to go to a rally, and will make the two hour drive down there to finally see this man speak in person on the day before I vote for him. I'm excited!

Anyone else going to be there?

Ben said...

new thread.

David said...

One of the most famous uses of subjunctive in English:

"If I were a rich man..."

Or, more recently...

"I would not say such things if I were you!"

(OK, not all that recent, but recent enough for me)

Zenu said...

bobnsj,

The'll be on the nbc SNL website or on hulu.com. No idea how fast they upload them after airing, though.

beek said...

Zogby came up with exactly the kind of silly excuse for his polling mumbo-jumbo yesterday that some people on this block (including me) have predicted: a VERY, VERY STRONG polling day for Obama.

What a joke.

PharmD said...

I'll take these numbers anyday..
o:49.5
m:43.8

go obama!!

Keys said...

Zogby 11/02: Obama 49.5%, McCain 43.8%

O +5.7

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1627

Pollster John Zogby: "Obama has consolidated his lead over McCain. His single day lead today was back to 52%-42%.

I guess old Toolby had to fix his number to jibe with the other polls. ;-)

Josh said...

Here's hoping for a continued Obama surge into Tuesday. Let's not let this be close.

And the real "FEAR CARD" should be Sarah Palin. It's insane to me that McCain & the GOP are trying to run with these "experience" commercials. They threw that argument away when they chose Sarah Palin.

Sarah Palin Gets Pranked

Sreenu said...

@bobnsj

They are not posted yet..but this is where you should find them

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/

madamerica said...

Zogby came up with exactly the kind of silly excuse for his polling mumbo-jumbo yesterday that some people on this block (including me) have predicted: a VERY, VERY STRONG polling day for Obama.

Exactly. He's writing a scenario in his head and somehow making the numbers tell the story.

obsessed said...

He's really not a bad guy.

No, he's a real sweetheart - just ran the filthiest, most unethical campaign in history - dumped his first wife when she got hurt in a car crash - calls his second wife a c*** - flies off the handle violently in senate sessions - viciously hazed fellow soldiers - he's a regular Mother Teresa that guy. My heart bleeds for him. I think we should all vote for him just to raise his spirits.

Vinny said...

Lol Zogby. That douche is lucky he's even getting hired this time around, much less to call out someone who ACTUALLY knows specifics about polling.

Also, I agree with the other guy. McCain isn't a bad guy. He's just a puppet being used by all the GOP guys. You could argue that he could say no to them, but he DOES want to win after all.

And as 60 seats get less likely, we're going to need some republican friends. McCain, Snowe, Collins, and Specter would likely be inclined to be friendly with the Democratic agenda.

TX_Democrat said...

PA - I am very confident that Obama will win PA. If he looses PA, then the polls have all lied and McCain will probably get over 300 EVs. Remember:

1) He has over 50% support in almost all the major polls:

ARG 10/29 - 10/31 600 LV 4.0 51 45 Obama +6
Rasmussen 10/30 - 10/30 500 LV 4.5 51 47 Obama +4
Morning Call 10/27 - 10/31 615 LV 4.0 52 44 Obama +8
NBC/Mason-Dixon 10/27 - 10/28 625 LV 4.0 47 43 Obama +4
Marist 10/26 - 10/27 713 LV 4.0 55 41 Obama +14
InAdv/PollPosition 10/26 - 10/26 588 LV 3.8 51 42 Obama +9

2) The last time McCain lead Obama in a PA poll was April.

3) Even the polls that have a GOP leaning have Obama in th lead.

tom said...

"Remember, as I said yesterday, one day does not make a trend. This is a three-day rolling average and no changes have been tectonic. A special note to blogger friends: calm it down. Lay off the cable television noise and look at your baseball cards in your spare time. It is better for your (and everyone else's) health."

Does anyone else think this reads like a hit on Nate and this site. The baseball card reference was obvious. Zogby must be jealous of the love MSM has for Mr. Silver. Nate won't say it, but we all think Zogby's day by day commentary is BS. He should be less of an attention grabbing whore with his comments, then he won't end up looking like a douche to everyone but Fox and Drudge.

obsessed said...

And as 60 seats get less likely, we're going to need some republican friends. McCain, Snowe, Collins, and Specter would likely be inclined to be friendly with the Democratic agenda.

Oh all right ... I take it all back

Nhoj said...

zozby is such a hack his polls have got to be some of the most erratic out there

beek said...

"It is better for your (and everyone else's) health."

Uuuuhhhh...

Nate, beware, Zogby's going to send out his thugs after you!

Will said...

AHAHA OBAMA GAINED .4 IN THE ZOGBY POLL.


THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS FOR JOHN MCCAIN

Josh said...

Zogby's trumpeting of his single day numbers is just ridiculous. It's obvious they are all over the place. That McCain +1 day will drop off on Zogby's final release. OBAMA SURGE!

---

I don't think Obama will be on SNL Monday night because he will be in Virginia at the same time.

---

I'm so tired of the McCain campaign's lying ads. They keep running these ads about how Obama is going to tax all of these "joe the plumbers" and it's just such BS. How many of these "joe the plumbers" make 250,000 a year?! These people are voting against their own interest. How many McCain voters that make less than 250K would say that lower taxes is one of the reasons to vote for McCain? I bet a whole lot of 'em. Sad.

---

Anyhoozle I think the two big stories from today are:

1. Dick Cheney endorsing John McCain

2. Sarah Palin gets pranked

kirby96 said...

Zogby should spend more time improving his polling techniques and less time worrying about blogs. If that is a reference to this site, it's the ultimate compliment.

Sreenu said...

@FakeVirginian, you said "Could this be a sting towards Drudge?...DEVELOPING!"

No, I think it is directed towards Nate (look at the baseball reference)

This is a classic case of someone preaching restraint after causing a commotion....he (Zogby) is the one who has been raising a ruckus about a single day lead in polling and now asks bloggers to calm down!

beek said...

"No, I think it is directed towards Nate (look at the baseball reference)"

And the reference to "cable television noise".

Sounds like Zogby is jealous about Nate's new staredom.

beek said...

"staredom"

Should have been "stardom", but nice anyway...

Alamala said...

Wow, I was gonna comment on the "conditional tense" thing myself but about FIVE PEOPLE beat me to it ;) It's why I love the 538 community. Buncha geeks :)

To quickly explain WHY conditional is not a tense... the term "tense" deals only with verbal inflections which mark an event as occurring at a particular point in time, either before, during or after the time of speaking. Various other kinds of verbal categories mark things like whether the speaker is asserting the event or doing something different (mood: conditional/subjunctive fall loosely into that category), or the duration, repetition or other temporal characteristics of events not related to the time of speaking (which we call "aspect"), and the alignment of semantic to grammatical roles as in active and passive ("voice").

On a more relevant note, a friend who is a lifelong republican just told me he is voting for Obama, and why:

"i decided to vote for Obama several weeks ago. dirty campaign tactics aside i just don't see change with Mccain. Bush's policies simply didn't work and however much he wants to distance himself from bush, Mccain looks to me to be just a continuation of those policies. Obama can't fix the country's problems but he can definitely increase the country's morale which might just make a bit of a difference. so there you go. a republican is voting for a democrat for president. happy? :p"

I told him I was happy ;) He's in Oregon so his vote won't swing the election, but the closer to a national mandate we get the calmer things will be afterwards.

Polly said...

Dave Barnes said...

"The plural is scenari, not scenarios. The language is Italiano."

Last I checked, this site was in English. And in English, the plural is, indeed, scenarios.

*****

pygmy_owl said...

"Here's what I don't get:

But why would anybody wait until election day to vote if early voting and voting by mail is possible? Seems completely screwball to me. Is it tradition? Laziness? Lack of information?"

I suspect that the most common issue would be the lack of information. I've been an active voter since '92 (although not as active as this year), and this election is the first time I'd even heard of early voting.

After that, I'd say it was procrastination. At this late stage, I'm not sure that anything that wouldn't also result in the candidate in question no longer being eligible (such as due to being in jail or the like), there really isn't anything that should be able to sway a relatively-informed voter away from their planned voting line.

David said...

"I was walking on campus here at UC Irvine, and heard 2 college students talking about voting... "I want to wait until November 4th to vote. It's my first election ever, and I want to feel like I've experienced the real thing." "You mean, you want to experience standing in line?" "Heh, I guess... I just want to have the experience once of doing it the normal way.""

From what I've heard, here in southern California, voting early is actually more likely to end up with a person standing in line than voting on the day. Plus, you likely have to travel further to get there, too. This year, my polling place is literally one stop further on my bus route home, which is only 1/4 mile away.

*****

boquita said...

"Can, someone, please explain what does "PUMA" mean?"

Well, PUMA is an acronym for Party Unity My Ass. From what I could find (in a very short Googling), PUMAs are Hillary Clinton enthusiasts who are so hysterical over Obama getting the nod, that they plan to do their damnedest to make absolutely certain that he doesn't win.

It seems a case of them cutting off their noses to spite their faces to me. Just makes no sense.

WV: kietring - What a drunken but determined voter who can't manage his ballot does.

Voice of Reason said...

Godamighty, people. Statistics AND grammar?!? Why don't we just go for the nerd trifecta and discuss Dungeons and Dragons while we're at it?

Speaking of which, I think D&D 4th ed. is too much like World of Warcraft.

My mom just told me I shouldn't stay up too late tonight because tomorrow we change the clocks and look for a girlfriend for me. Night, everybody. Sadly, I'm only half kidding.

beek said...

Drudge: "Zogby: Obama +5.7%..."

Hey, Matt, your forgot the all-important "developing..."

John said...

" A special note to blogger friends: calm it down. Lay off the cable television noise and look at your baseball cards in your spare time. It is better for your (and everyone else's) health."

Wow, Zogby. Way to show no class.

Here's your problem...

YOU leak your one day results to Drudge. YOU decide to try and generate a stir with one day noise.

You can't have it both ways. If it's a three day poll, then sell THAT number. When you and your poorly-hatted friend trumpet an outlier it is your fault, not Nate's or anyone else's.

What a joke you have become.

Your siren yesterday wasn't aimed at people who are paying attention. It was aimed at the gullible. And you got caught trying to be a huckster instead of a pollster.

Alamala said...

"Okay ... I'm obsessed with Spanish and I've memorized the 7+7+1 categories of verbs, with the main seven being Present, Imperfect, Preterite, Future, Conditional, Subjunctive, and Past Subjunctive. Are these all "moods" or is only the subjunctive a mood?"

Present, Preterite (past) and Future are tenses. Imperfect is an aspect. Conditional and Subjunctive are moods.

The term "subjunctive", like pretty much every term in grammar, means somewhat different things in different languages, but what the use of the term in English and Spanish have in common is that they have to do with what we call an "irrealis" (unreal) situation... not something that is asserted to have happened, but something that might happen or that we wish would happen etc.

MATT J. H. said...

I have to be honest. the "Developing..." line that Drudge does irritates me a lot. I know it shouldn't, but it does.

Don said...

For the people fretting about Pennsylvania, you can always count on Pollster aggregates to ease your worries:

http://www.pollster.com/polls/pa/08-pa-pres-ge-mvo.php

tom said...

RE Zogby hating on NS:

Ask yourself this, how often does Zogby get his mug on cable news these days... it must burn him that Nate is becoming an election cycle phenom despite the short track record (in terms of election cycles). If you need to know anything about Zogby's self inflated ego.. consider the first sentence on his About Zogby link:

"John Zogby, President and CEO of Zogby International, remains by all accounts the hottest pollster in the United States today."

One point I'd like to make on early voting in NC. Historically, the party ID there is very misleading. I think back in 2000 +2004 the Dems had a huge registration advantage, but Dem support within party was weak. I'm sure that the incremental registration gains since 2004 are probably likely O supporters, but we should probably discount the spread more when considering banked votes in NC for Tuesday.

LP640 said...

So where is that troll who said Zogby was an accurate poster?

What do you have to say for yourself now, "Mrinsight22"

You're awfully quiet there!!!

MATT J. H. said...

I don't think we understand the contempt the wingnuts will have for Obama from the minute the Presidential race is called. They will be on a mission to destroy Obama with a viciousness that will make the Clinton years look like patty-cake.

TX_Democrat said...

Hell,

I never was freaking out the Zogby number. 5 of the other 6 tracking polls have shown Obama trending upward after Wednesday’s infomercial:

Research 2000 +2%
ABC News/Wash Post +1%
IBD/TIPP +.4%
GW/Battleground Tracking +1%
Hotline/FD +1%
Gallup +3%
Rasmussen Reports even

A.J said...

Anybody else hear any rumors about a soon to be released Survey USA PA poll? Somebody on here mentioned it and I saw mention of it on another site. Supposed good news for McCain?

the Cognitive Dissident said...

@MrInsight22:

2. On November 1, 2004, the electoral-vote.com map based on the most recent polls showed Kerry winning FL and OH just like the exit polls did on election day.

Yeah, but Kerry's leads in those FL and OH polls were 1% and 2%, respectively; for this year to be analagous to 2004, we'd have to see Pennsylvania and Virginia polling at the same kind of statistical dead heat.

ovests: what the obama campaign will be offering for $30 contributions, if the election doesn't end pretty soon.

Bob X said...

"But in 2004, Zogby erroneously predicted a Kerry win via OH and FL. "
Or: Zogby correctly predicted a Kerry win in OH and FL, and it was the official tallies which were "erroneous". We'll probably never know.

But I think this race is too big to steal. My prediction, since Oct. 11 and I still stick to it: election eve polls will be around 52-44, but votes will be nearer to 55-40-5, with a surprisingly high percentage of McCain just not showing up at all or voting 3rd party in protest. Therefore, Obama goes double-digit in all blue states (including PA, and the Gore-but-not-Kerry NM, IA and the Kerry-but-not-Gore NH), less well in the purple states (FL, OH, VA, CO, NV) but still sweeps them all.

In the "white" states that have been looking tied or slightly McCain (NC, IN, MO, MT, ND) I also look for Obama sweep, though maybe he loses one or two; but he gets a "pink" or two to make up for it. My Oct. 11 count gave him WV and Omaha for a 387/151 trouncing; take away WV and MT but give him AZ, make it 388.

Am I complacent? Just in case, spent the afternoon door-knocking.
oburedle: how Ben Affleck looked doing Keith Obermann

ialex said...

Be nice to McCain, everybody. He's going to lose, and we'll need his help in the Senate on global warming. He's really not a bad guy. He's just surrounded by bad people right now, and he knows he'll be dead in the water if he pisses off the Republican base.

No.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Here is something in quotes for you Nate: "You're a fuckin' ass"

Victoria said...

I was thinking about On the Road today -- around 3:00 I was by one of the two Obama offices near the center of Squirrel Hill (the largest residential neighborhood in Pittsburgh, by population).

There were three signs on the door: one saying that the phone bank was full until at least 4:00, that this office and the one around the corner was full for general administrative help, and that they were full for canvassers until the election and that anyone who wanted to volunteer could call one of the three nearest offices with volunteer slots (all of which were a few neighborhoods away -- and I know of at least three closer Obama offices.)

The brand-new McCain office just down the street? Closed. I totally get McCain wanting to make the airwaves competitive and spend his money there. But why even bother paying rent if you're not going to have your office open in a commercial area in a swing state with tons of foot traffic the Saturday afternoon before the election? What's the point?

Paul said...

D. Melanogaster said...
"I don't understand what it means that the projection and trend on the right is going down down down if things are fairly stable??"

Look at the horizontal scale - the dates shown are two weeks apart, so it shows stable polling data for about four weeks with a small drop in Obama's numbers of about 0.5-0.75% in the past week.

Vivienne said...

VOTE...Don't Gloat!

We need to deliver Pa. to Obama and be part of this history!

-- Vivienne in State College

David said...

McCain has been closing fast in PA. Even if Obama wins the election, loosing PA would be a huge hit to the Democratic party. Eitherway, loosing PA will greatly reduce Obama's chances of winning the election.

McCain has been focusing on PA much more than Obama in the last two weeks. Recently the Obama campaign has announced that they will be spending time and money in several new states that have always gone Republican, including Arizona. I think this is a mistake. It spreads the campaign too thin, takes the focus from the important states like PA, and we have zero chance of winning these states.

We can not loose PA just because we want to show off by campaigning in Arizona.

Let's get serious and leave Arizona alone!!!!

Please come back to PA!!!!

Leigh said...

thanks, i was getting a little concerned

Toz said...

@ Dave Barnes -

The accepted plural of "scenario" is "scenarios." Look it up. Moreover, the true plural in Italian would be scenarii, with two "i's."

Jeez.

Henry said...

Zogby, Rasmussen and, certainly Mason-Dixon polls have become somewhat suspect. The latter has always been a "lean" Republican organization. Zogby, generally, seems behind the trend (faulty methodology?). Rasmussen? Well, they have worked a little too closely with False (Fox) News.

Alan Archibald said...

I understand Nate's rationale. But I don't think it merits giving "free fodder" to The McCain Camp. Imagine the headline: "Premier Liberal Polling Site Admits Pennsylvania "In Play."

Alan Archibald said...

I understand Nate's rationale. But I don't think it's wise to give "free fodder" to The McCain Camp. Imagine the headline: "Premier Liberal Polling Site Admits Pennsylvania "In Play."

The cost/benefit ratio is negative.

Meg said...

PA has more than 78 field offices. There are also smaller satellite offices open for weekend canvassing and for all of GOTV.

I've been working out of a satellite office for the last 3 weekends.

wskimmer said...

Nate, love you on the teevee and appreciate your work on this site. We live in northeastern PA. Yesterday we showed up to canvass in Stroudsburg but the campaign office had so many volunteers they were all out of canvassing packets, so we did the phone bank. There were lots of folks from all over volunteering to canvass and to make calls, and when we went back again today to the local Obama HQ, there were guys with lawn signs standing at the corners of 7th Street and Main and drivers honking and shouting support as they passed.

My husband's optimistic guess is that there might be as high as a 3% hidden edge in Obama's ground game. This regretably turned out to be true in the '04 Bush effort when Kerry received more votes than any other Dem candidate in history, but Bush received even more.

Yes we can!

Sandy said...

Worried about the Pennsylvania GOTV? Don't be. If Philadelphia gets its turnout for Obama then PA is in the bag. I've worked every election starting with Carter '76 and have never seen so much ground coverage. My neighborhood has TWO field offices. We are all volunteers, many from other states in for the weekend, the week, the month, or more. But McCain, or a surrogate, is paying teenagers $70 a day to distribute leaflets here about abortion and Israel, distorting Obama's record on both. $70 a day for kids. (We asked them, that's how we know.)

Makes you think they can't get enough volunteers to work for them.

So don't look at money spent, look at volunteers mobilized.

superm401 said...

"Were the national race to tighten by 5 points or so, then Pennsylvania might actually be in play, rather than being "in play"."

That is possible the most ridiculous statement I've read this election season. Nate, you're a pundit, not a politician.

egapre said...

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^^ nice blog!! ^@^

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平平 said...

^^ very nice

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