11.11.2008

Minnesota Recount: Number of Discrepancies May Be Low

Although it might seem like we've already covered all the ground there is to cover on the Minnesota recount process, we may be able to draw some additional lessons from Florida's recount experience in 2000.

In 2001, the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago undertook a comprehensive review of almost all ballots rejected in initial counts in the state of Florida in 2000, a process known as the Florida Ballot Project. NORC provides a wealth of data for public consumption, some of which is especially helpful to our purposes here.

Specifically, I examined records for a set of 6,902 undervotes in a series of 37 Florida counties that used optical scanning technology (as Minnesota does) in 2000. This excludes data from Volusia County, which NORC recommends against using because of ambiguities surrounding which ballots were and weren't included in its initial count.

NORC researchers went through each of these ballots, attempting to determine whether voter intent was discernible as a result of any kind of marking on the ballot. Among the 6,902 undervotes:

-- In 4,505 cases (65.3%), there were no clear markings on the ballot and voter intent was not discernible. In most or many of these cases, the voter probably skipped the presidential race intentionally.

-- In 179 cases (2.6%), there were markings beside more than one candidate. Although these votes should probably have been classified as overvotes rather than undervotes, in either eventuality they are not very useful to us.

-- In the remaining 2,217 cases (32.1%), there was a marking next to one candidate only -or- there was an affirmative marking next to one candidate and a negative marking (such as the candidate's name being crossed out) next to one or more candidates (such negative markings were rare and represented just a small fraction of the total).

There were 34,916 unrecorded votes in Minnesota's senate race. If the voter's intent can in fact be discerned in 32.1% of these cases, that would total 11,208 reclassified ballots. This would likely be more than enough to give Franken a victory given that his voters are probably more likely to have cast a discarded ballot.

However, I believe this may overestimate the number of correctable errors for two reasons. Firstly, the proportion of intentional undervotes (i.e. where the voter skipped the race on purpose) is liable to be higher the further one goes down the ballot;
a top-of-the-ticket race like the presidential election in Florida does not make for an apples-to-apples comparison with a second-on-the-ticket race like the senate election in Minnesota . Secondly, I have only examined the data for undervotes and not overvotes, and overvotes are usually harder to correct during a recount.

Still, let's dig a little deeper and see what we might find. The NORC data set also provides a brief description of the nature of the voter's mark in cases when a ballot is reclassified upon a hand recount. Among our 2,217 reclassified ballots, the description of the marks were as follows:

746 Arrow/oval filled
442 Arrow/oval marked other than fill
(circled, X, ?, checked, scribble)
418 Other mark near arrow/oval
263 Other mark on or near party name
227 Other mark on or near candidate name
89 Circled party name
32 Circled candidate name
In 746 of 2,217 cases -- almost exactly one-third -- the voter appeared to have filled in the oval or arrow properly, but the machine did not record the vote. These votes can be thought of as cases of machine error (although, in some subset of cases, they may consist of instances where a voter used a nonreadable marking device such as a dull pencil). The other two-thirds of cases are various forms of voter error, such as a voter circling a candidate's name rather than filling in his oval.

This distinction between machine error and voter error happens to be particularly helpful to us because the state of Minnesota periodically conducts an audit of its optical scanning systems. This audit is designed to detect the incidence of machine error and machine error only; cases of voter error are explicitly disregarded by the audit.

In Minnesota's 2006 senate race, the audit detected just 53 discrepancies out of 94,073 ballots tested, or an error rate of 0.056%. However, these are the cases of machine error only, whereas the state has a liberal voter intent law to cover cases of voter error as well during the process of an actual recount.

From our Florida data set, we believe that machine error represents approximately one-third of the total number of correctable errors. That would imply that about 0.169% of ballots -- roughly 1 ballot out of every 600 cast -- will be reclassified in Minnesota. Given the total number of ballots cast in Minnesota's senate race, this translates to 4,835 ballots that will in fact be reclassified during the hand recount.

Would this number be sufficient to provide Al Franken with a victory? It is very, very close. Using the Daily Kos estimate that 52.5% of recounted ballots will go to Franken (after dropping votes for third parties), we estimate a net gain of 206 votes for him, which is almost exactly the margin by which he presently trails Norm Coleman. (The margin is in fact exactly 206 votes as of this writing).

Another piece of information from the Florida data set, however, contains heartening news for Franken. Among the 2,217 reclassified ballots, 1,129 (50.9%) went to Al Gore, and 1,013 (45.7%) went to George W. Bush, with the balance going to third party candidates. This doesn't seem like that big a discrepancy. However, the counties that were using the optical scanning system in 2000 tended to be wealthy, suburban and quite red. When we look at the results of the officially-tallied ballots in those counties (weighted based on the number of recounted ballots) we find that 56.2% of those votes went to Bush and just 42.2% to Gore. Instead of losing to Bush by 15 points, however, as he had among regular ballots in these counties, Gore beat Bush by 5 points among the reclassified undervotes.

(As an aside, Gore and Bush split roughly evenly those ballots that were rejected due to apparent machine error, while Gore beat Bush about 3:2 among undervotes due to voter error).

The Daily Kos estimate of 52.5% reclassified ballots going to Franken is based on an examination of precinct-level data (specifically, the weighted average of already-counted ballots in those precincts which were scored for Franken), and therefore may be closer to the mark than the county-level data I examined in Florida. Even so, however, there is a certain amount of heterogeneity within a given precinct, and it is probable that those voters within a precinct that mismarked their ballots are more likely to be disposed toward Franken. If anything, therefore, the 52.5% estimate may be conservative.

The more that I examine this data, the more I'm beginning to believe that the number of reclassifiable ballots may be relatively low, but that the proportion of such ballots that are resolved in Franken's favor may be relatively high. How these two factors will ultimately reconcile themselves, I don't know.

110 comments

Fizz Byers said...

I wonder how much traffic has dropped off this site since last Tuesday... Clearly I'm still addicted haha http://www.funderoos.com

eve said...

All this detailed look at the count and recount is great. thanks

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

The one thing since the election was called at 11:00 p.m. eastern is that blogger seems to work much better.

I do not need a statistical analysis from Nate to figure this one out. ;)

Kid G said...

fizz byers:

My guess is it will come right back up in 2010.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

So, on right wing radio, WMAL here in the DC area, they were complaining that votes that were trickling in in Minnesota has some suspicious numbers. More votes were being reported then possible.

Is there any truth to this or has anyone else heard this or is this just another case of trying to taint a possible Franken comeback?

GayIthacan said...

Nte:

If you massage the Minnesota polling data any further, the vice squad is going to come and arrest you for pandering! :)

Michael said...
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Ben A. said...

On another note, how can it be taking Alaska so friggen long to count votes from the actual election?! It's ridiculous...

Michael said...

I think the 52.5% figure may be in error -- slightly. As you state --

52.5% of recounted ballots will go to Franken (after dropping votes for third parties)

Why would you drop 3rd party candidates from this calculation? I would expect that some of the undervote would go to Barkley. The 52.5% figure is based on relative vote shares for the 2 candidates when I think the correct figure would be to base it on actual vote percentages of each candidate. This change would shrink the margin.

Deconstructionism said...

This is great news.... FOR JOHN MCCAIN!

Kennyb said...

Michael, what part of "Using the Daily Kos estimate that 52.5% of recounted ballots will go to Franken (after dropping votes for third parties)" don't you understand? After all this, do you really think Nate is that error-prone or math-challenged?

peteypowderblue said...

Well, it took Nate about 24 hours too long to look at Florida 2000 to get the appropriate data, but he did.

Excellent coverage of AK and MN, Nate.

You're still the go-to guy.

Steve_OH said...

@Ben A.

I think the situation in Alaska is not that they're taking so long to count the ballots, but that they're not going to even start counting until all of the absentee ballots have come in.

["glycliz" - The name of a new personal lubricant that, for some reason, never caught on.]

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

I just read the rest of the 80,000 uncounted ballots in AK will be dealt with tomorrow.

You can read about it HERE.

Michael said...

KennyB -- I think my comment stands as is. the analysis in that Kos diary allocates ALL of the undervote between two candidates based on their relative vote share and not based on thier actual vote share. I don't know if Nate missed this point or what -- but it is a factual question that can be addressed.

ScottGA said...

Fizz, you can get an idea about this site's traffic over time here:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/fivethirtyeight.com

Markcava8 said...

Nate, is the NORC data set from Florida 2000 online somewhere?

Michael said...

There are two Michaels here. I'm not the one who thinks Nate doesn't know about Barkley./mbw

Redshift said...

liberal_defender_of_freedom:
Is there any truth to this or has anyone else heard this or is this just another case of trying to taint a possible Franken comeback?

It's right-wing talk radio. They don't have any special insight, they're just trying to preemptively call a Franken victory into question. Undermining the legitimacy of liberals through insinuation and outright lies is what they do.

A said...

Sorry for the off-topic comment, but I liked the NYTimes piece devoted exclusively to you. (As a mathematiician, I'm especially gratified to learn that a numerical/statistical/logical facility is considered sexy!)

Milly said...

I just love it when you talk dirty!

Actually some of that made my brain hurt. But thanks anyway.

Dave said...

I don't understand why you're assuming that machine and voter error have such a strong linkage. Machine error would be dependent on the quality of the machines and the training of the poll workers in providing the correct marking devices. Voter error would be based on voter education.

Now I can see a parallel in that poll workers that ensure proper marking devices will also improve voter education, but I don't think it would have that strong an effect. If anything, a low machine error leaves more of the unrecorded votes for correctable voter error.

We have no data here on what percentage of all florida votes were machine errors, because we're only given the number of undervotes rather than the total number for those counties. What we do have is that 1471 out of 6156 (23.90%) non-machine-error undervotes were correctable.

If we're talking about around 1600 total machine errors, that leaves about 33000 unrecorded non-machine-error votes. 23.9% of that is about 8000 correctable votes.

Michael said...

I'm the other Michael and I don't think that Nate is unaware of Barkley either. I just think he may have not noticed that the way that the Kos diarist apparently excluded Barkley from the undervote calculation ended up allocating based on 2 candidate vote share.

Michael said...

Also, as homunq convinced me, the DKos estimate of the percents is nearly worthless. It would be a good only if the total Sen undervote were almost all unintentional. It is instead certainly mostly intentional. The 52.55 may be about right, but that's based on prior knowledge about undercounts and party ID, not on the particular circumstance that in this election the D candidate was more likely to inspire intentional undervotes. (I can't stand Coleman, and like Franken, but we have to be realistic.) On the other hand, given the greater likelihood of the top of the R ticket to inspire undervotes, and the almost perfect F-C balance of the POTUS undercount, we do have some confirming evidence that undercounts here tend to come from F voters.

Sorry if this is too complicated.

Have we taken into account the Bradley effect here?

/mbw

Ryan said...

As a person living in Minnesota I would like to let you know of another reason there may be under votes. This was the ugliest race I'd ever seen. This became a choice between the lesser of two evils, and I'm sure many chose to abstain from voting.

ThisIsForTheCool said...

Is tge Georgia count final; have all early votes been counted? If so, can someone explain the variance from the polls......

Michael said...

Just to follow up -- here is a quote from the Kos diary:

The total senate undervote is 34916. If the senate undervote is allocated to Coleman and Franken along their fraction of the Coleman+Franken vote in that precinct, Coleman would receive 16573 new votes, Franken 18342

These numbers are consistent with Nat'es use of the 52.5% figure. You can see that there is no allocation to Barkley at all. How does this make sense?

It would only be proper if you first eliminated some fraction of the undervote as going to Barkley and then applied the 52.5% figure to the remaining undervote.

Please show me where my interpretation is incorrect.

Juris said...

Regarding web traffic, none of the poll aggregation sites is getting remotely the traffic they got in the last couple of weeks of the election campaign (and especially not on election day). But best I can infer, 538 is still getting the traffic it received in early October. As new material comes on line (new features?), it should retain a pretty respectable audience and build a new base.

A couple of the sites (Pollster, RCP) provide "news readers" as an auxiliary service and that will draw some daily traffic just for that convenience (I go there for that). 538 could also provide some newsy segment to bring such routine traffic.

Matthew H said...

Agree that you've got to include the 3rd party candidate- your current totals are as if Barkley got none of the undervote, and I'll wager he got closer to 30%.

And I'm STILL waiting for what the heck happened in Georgia! Doesn't anyone know?

poldepe- relying on public opinion to decide what you're going to do.

Jessica said...
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Ben A. said...

@Steve_OH:
Yeah that's what I mean, just staggering. There was a quote on Kos that they had to wait 8 days to "make sure no one voted twice."

Jessica said...

I've created a Google Docs spreadsheet where you can play with different numbers for correctable ballots, Barkley's percent of the vote, and Frankin's share of the Coleman/Frankin vote
here. (You don't need to be logged in to Google to use it, but PLEASE don't edit the anything but the blue boxes. Google will not let me lock the cells that do the calculating.)

My numbers differ slightly from Nate's (and are less accurate) because I made a simplifing assumption about Barkley's share of the vote, fixing it at exactly a given percentage.

Joseph said...

Great work and insight Nate!

now, WTFrell is going on in Moose-world?

Eric said...

Michael:

While Nate takes the 52.5% from the Daily Kos article, he redoes the calculation correctly after removing those votes for Barkley. Just do it yourself-

4,835 votes to be reclassified
52.5% to Franken, 47.5% to Coleman
Nate claims that results in a 206 vote edge to Franken.

That's only true if you first subtract 15% of the votes for Barkley, otherwise you would end up with a 242 vote edge to Franken. All of his previous charts also accounted for Barkley in the same way, so referencing his old table with various vote/% values is also valid.

Kennyb said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Kennyb said...

What he ^ said

Jessica said...

Having just done this myself, Nate's 52.5% is Frankin's share of the votes that went to either Frankin of Coleman. He's assuming that a correctable ballot has a 15% chance of being a Barkley vote, and if it isn't, then it has a 52.5% chance of being for Frankin.

Michael said...

Eric and Jessica-

yes I see that -- thanks. But it still isn't the best way to do it. It should be based on the vote percentages by precinct that includes Barkley and other candidates since Barkley may well have had different vote percentages in the precincts with the larger undervotes than the 15% assumption.

Jessica said...

Michael --
The Daily Kos estimate (which has the great weakness of assuming that no undervotes are blank ballots) does take the Barkley vote into account. It shows that when you weight the vote in each precinct by the undervote in that precinct (that is, assume the undervotes look just like the counted votes), you get an estimate of 15.3% for Barkley, 44.7% for Franken, and 40.0% for Coleman. So Franken gets 52.5% of the combined F+C vote.

homunq said...

My last numbers had Franken gaining between 100 and 300 votes, depending on assumptions, with a statistical error of 70 votes. Nate has some new data here, but I agree with the above comments that his logic is suspect in going from senate undervotes to 52.5% and also in going from machine error to human error across different machines. So let me try my numbers again.

There are 8.9K presidential undervotes. We can bet that any Senate undervotes in excess of this number are intentional, so assume 8.9K possibly-intentional senate undervotes. Audits on the Minnesota machines lead us to believe that 1.5K of these are machine error, leaving 7.4K undervotes. Let's split these similarly to the NON-MACHINE undervotes in FL; after eliminating the machine error, that leaves 24% reclassifiable, or 2127 votes. This is a really low number, much lower than the 2/3 of reclassifiable votes that I was assuming before.

There are also, as Nate did not include, the absentee votes which were ruled invalid but contested by the Franken campaign. There were 461 of those in Hennepin. The only reason we know about Hennepin was that Franken's lawyers chose to fight the issue there; but the Democratic elections board refused to reconsider these votes before the recount. We can assume that they suspected Franken of cherry-picking for choosing to contest this and not other counties - in other words, we must extrapolate to 1.8K invalid absentees statewide. Not all of these will be ruled valid on a second look, but I'd suspect that a majority of the problems are silly, resolvable signature discrepancies. So let's count that as another 1.4K pool of votes.

This gives us a total pool of votes of 5K, of which 1.5K are totally unbiased machine errors. The remaining 3.5K would have to break to Franken by a margin of 6% (say, 45 Franken and 39 Coleman) in order to make up the difference. The statistical standard deviation is only around 35 votes; if there are a few machine errors among the non-undervotes, that would rise to maybe 40 votes. So unless Franken has a margin of at least 4%, his chances are slim.

I'd say that kind of margin in the undervote is definitely on the high side of reasonable, though not out of the question. Coleman has the edge here in my book. Why are my numbers so different from Nate's? Because my assumptions lead me, inevitably, to much lower numbers for the pool of reassignable votes in a recount.

OryJTgun said...

Has anyone (ie Nate :-) ) looked at the 2006 Gregoire/Rossi race (for Gov of WA) for simililarities to this? There were, IIRC, 2 re-counts, finally giving the race to Gregoire (the Dem) after having been originally called for Rossi? That might be a little more in line than the FL presidential race.

Lee said...

Nate,

This isn't important, but as a (former) Missourian, is this race over:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/politics/story/91543F3D63AAB73D862574FE00158BC5?OpenDocument

Voice of the Midwest said...

Franken has to be clear in response to Coleman's assertions that fraud is afoot in Minnesota.

Franken needs to measure his response without opinion and a focus on the line-by-line facts of the Minnesota recount process.

Barkley also has to show some stones and call out Coleman for trying to muddy the water on a process well done by Secretary of State Ritchie. Just going off into the sunset is not a choice if you are a person who gives a damn about democracy, let alone fair play.

WV: fuleukc - what Joe Scarbourough apparently can't control himself from saying.

homunq said...

Why do I think that 6% margin in the combined voter-error and revalidated-absentee pool is highish? Because the most democratic populations, such as first-time voters, only give a margin of about 20% to Franken. There would have to be a surplus of about 30% of these kinds of votes in the pool, which would mean that voter error or invalidation would have to be over 3 times as likely for such a voter. That sounds like the high end of reasonable to me.

Juris said...

More on the audience. This site will always attract numbers fanatics -- of the numerically challenged who want somebody to make sense of numbers and explain things clearly.

In the election season, election polling and strategy provided a focus for a large numbers-driven narrative. The idea of a Congress/legislation-driven scorecard is potentially a good one, and can also include featured focus on how certain legislative battles are shaping up (over health care, tax reform, etc.) But does 538 compete with CQ? Where's it's comparative advantage?

Simply from the standpoint of balancing the need to have material up here every day against the time required to develop new tools, the website, etc., Nate could use another writer. Sean is a valuable contributor. But another "big politics" wonk would also help, say someone who really knows Congress, or who can take on some other "beat" on economic and political matters -- while feeding the numbers oriented audience here as well.

Perhaps having a couple regularly "featured" contributors (with bylined columns) writing once a week or so would be another way to go. Perhaps Nate could "incorporate" a couple of those blogs that are already out there.


In any event, there's still plenty of value in retracing the interpreting the 2008 election. Nate has a whole lotta trend and other information in his database that he could draw on.

homunq said...

Oops. I made a mistake in my numbers. I used 8900 and not 7400 to get the resolvable-voter-error ballots. The corrected number is 1769 voter-errors, which gives 4.7K total pool, of which 3.2K has a potential bias. Franken needs a 7% margin for a tie and a 5% margin for a chance. 7% is starting to look too high to me. In other words, by my numbers, Franken needs everything to go right to pull out a win here.

Voice of the Midwest said...

From the Minneapolis S/T this AM:

After the 2006 election, the first time the audit was conducted, it reviewed votes in about 5 percent of the state's 4,123 precincts. Among 94,073 votes cast in the U.S. Senate race in those precincts, the audit found 53 discrepancies, an error rate of .00056.

NOW CONSIDER THIS:

This was an audit of Klobachar vs. Kennedy in 2006. You had 40% fewer voters and this was a sampling of only 5% of the precincts statewide (per state certification rules).

Extract from it what you will, but there is an honest process in place despite the assertions otherwise from Coleman's troops.

billybear said...

Nate,
Are there any demographics on the 2,217 reclassified NORC data set?

KB said...

My professor was actually in charge of the NORC study and he was talking about the obvious corruption in the ballot counting in Broward country.

Eric said...

If the situation in Minnesota plays out to where Franken wins the recount by less than 100 votes, I can't imagine being a Supreme Court Justice trying to make a decision as to what is fair. The truth is, at that point, a revote, like in Georgia would be the fairest route. It's probably preferrable at this point. Too bad it's not the law.

homunq said...

Although of course the gore/bush FL numbers (voter error ballots were biased 20 points to the democratic side of the underlying population) Franken has reason to hope that his margin may well beat 7%. Note that Florida 2000 had more linguistic minorities, more older voters, fewer NCLB-schooled voters, and a lower third-party vote than MN-2008, so that 20-point skew will not happen here, but in light of those numbers 7% does not look too out of line.

tibor75 said...

Given the fact that both candidates were embarrassments, I have a feeling that most undervotes were likely intentional.

I am a Fractal said...

Nate,

Your article skips over possible machine error.

The fact is there are normally marked ballots that the machines simply have had trouble counting--Especially the particular models they have been using in Hennepin county.

These machines have a ONE PERCENT error rate, which is 10 times more than the current margin.

One thing that these machines are very sensitive to is printing registration of the ovals. If one side's ovals, or the other side's have been printed out of registration, then there will be many more uncounted votes.

To merely look at this from the standpoint of voter error misses the probably much larger problem of machine error that has been covered on sites like http://bradblog.com

matt4077 said...

You're clearly suffering from post-election depression. I bet you similarly over analyze your breakfast choices.

Good work anyway! Thanks

Andy JS said...

Many of the undervotes are probably due to minority voters in the Minneapolis – Saint Paul area only bothering to vote in the presidential election (for Obama), but if they'd just taken a few more seconds to vote Democratic in the Senate race, the Democrats would now be on 58 Senate seats without the need for a recount.

As far as the presidential result is concerned, John McCain is very close to Kerry's 2004 total; if he beats Kerry's total, he would have the most votes of any unsuccessful candidate in a US presidential election.

melodious b. said...

I only understand about half of this, but I'm finding it incredibly fascinating.

goatdan said...

For anyone who has suggested the other 35 factors that could be in play here, look -- Nate has done these and has spelled out clearly his assumptions that he is making for the data to look correct.

At some point, it becomes complete and utter death by numbers. It would be insane to add in Barkley's total by county, and then figure out an estimation for which exact machines were used in which county, and then take into account blahblahblah.

When you're examining something, you have to try to draw a parallel between one set of data, and then show the probabilities. Nate does this masterfully. Making a chart that says, "well, if we have this, and this, and this, and this, and this, we *may* get this, or this or this" is just pointless conjecture.

This article says based on the amount of unrecorded votes, making an assumption about how many can be reclassified, and then making an assumption about what percentage of those is reclassified will yield the following set of results. The two assumptions that were made were realistic, if not perfect, and can be adjusted in the future if need be.

I just hope this gets going sooner than later, because I really, really want to see the results!

KAP said...

>homunq 9:48 am

There are 8.9K presidential undervotes. We can bet that any Senate undervotes in excess of this number are intentional, so assume 8.9K possibly-intentional senate undervotes. Audits on the Minnesota machines lead us to believe that 1.5K of these are machine error, leaving 7.4K undervotes. Let's split these similarly to the NON-MACHINE undervotes in FL; after eliminating the machine error, that leaves 24% reclassifiable, or 2127 votes. This is a really low number, much lower than the 2/3 of reclassifiable votes that I was assuming before.

No, you're applying the same filter twice with this logic. First you use number of POTUS undervotes as a proxy for inadvertant Senate undervotes (which I agree is a valid standard).

But then you apply yet another roughly 70% filter from the Florida recount, not realizing that this is the same filter you already applied to the Minnesota votes.

So we're really back to 8.9K votes that are inadvertent (including machine errors), or about 7.4K total inadvertent, to which the 40-44-15 ratio should be applied. This would result in a gain of about 300 votes for Franken.

Sedi said...

"I'm beginning to believe that the number of reclassifiable ballots may be relatively low, but that the proportion of such ballots that are resolved in Franken's favor may be relatively high"

That was precisely my reaction yesterday: the original estimate of the number of usable ballots (11,251) seemed too high but the marginal difference between Franken and Coleman (52.5%) seemed on target or even too low. I'm glad to hear that the new evidence backed up my gut reaction. Of course, the bottom line is that we still don't really know who is likely to win.

jackscrow said...

I find it interesting that the majority of the "revised counts", before certification, came from three heavily Dem precincts.

Lauri said...

That is a lot of analysis that does not address the simple point that because of the way the campaign was run and all of the baggage attached to each candidate, many people just couldn't make up their minds. This was a race between a Republican who accepted huge gifts from a "friend" and an ex-comedian who said a lot of off the wall things over the years. Also, as you said this is the place where they elected an ex-wrestler for governor. It's Lake Wobegon country.

SHERWICK said...

Obama currently leads McCain by over 8,220,000 votes. Put another way, Obama leads by over the total number of people who voted in Texas.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Andy JS said...

Just noticed a strange result from New York County, (Borough of Manhatten). The number of Democrat votes fell from 526,765 to 490,634, (although the Dem percentage rose from 82% to 85%).

jj said...

"Blah Blah Blah Blah. We don't know."

Just kidding =P Great work as usual.

Juris said...

CBSSports "Sports Nerd of the Year: Nate Silver".

Pan said...

@liberal_defender_of_freedom

Can't remember where I read it, but I did see a note saying that there were more votes being counted than the numbers cast on election day. The problem was absentee ballots. Those aren't in the "cast on election day" totals, so they'll push it over the top. So far, I haven't heard of any instances where there were more votes than there were registered voters. THAT would be suspicious.

Pan said...

Oh, and is it just me, or does anyone else think the fizz byers post at the beginning was just blogspam. It seems a generic comment that can avoid getting deleted, yet it directs someone to another site. And if you do searches for "www.funderoos.com", you see a lot of other quick posts like this.

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but it's just funny that so many people are responding to it seriously. I doubt the original poster has even glanced at this thread once his goal was achieved.

William said...

So, what happens in MN if there is a tie?

Coin flip? Hand of poker? Revote? Tie base goes to the incumbent?

Noah said...

Thank you, as always, for the wonderful analysis.

I'm confused by one element of this analysis. In Florida, one third of under votes were due to machine error. But in Minnesota they carefully test their machines to make sure that the machine error rate is low. Why would this suggest that the voter error rate is low? Wouldn't the machine error rate simply account for a smaller percentage of undervotes?

Why would the correlation between machine and voter error rate be reflected between states, when those states have different practices to treat machine error?

markymark said...

I am not quite sure what to make of Franken, love him as a political commentator, not sure what to make of him as a politician. Hope he beats Coleman mind.

Does feel a bit like a ballroom after the party has finished around here but the band is still playing so I am still around!

Wayward Son said...

Posting my first call for the Sean/Brett 'On The Road' coffee table book.

I'd buy 10 copies, folks. There's money to be made.

wv: rachize Ok, fine, correct my word choice then.. 'There's rachize to be made.' I don't think that was an improvement, random verification word generator.

Imported_Bostonian said...

Hi, first post here, I've enjoyed this site.

Yesterday there was mention of a large county in MN that still had to give it's updated result for the canvas. As it was discussed yesterday there was a chance that it would close the gap further. However, I there have been no updates in the total since yesterday at 2:30. Was wondering if this had already happened, or if anyone knew if we could expect other changes to the total before the certification. Thanks!

STepper said...

Final arbiter of the proper winner of any Senate seat in the US Senate. So, if there is a tie the Senate can deem the seat is vacant, triggering a new election.

The Senate can also do the same thing in Alaska if Sen. Felon is re-elected and the vote appears to be suspicious. While the Senate could even declare Begich the winner, the Senate is too decorous to do that but would probably just say "re-vote." Unless the evidence is pretty clear that Alaska stole the election from Begich.

If the Senate declares the Alaska seat vacant it doesn't have to vote to expel Sen. Felon. Neat trick, eh?

joel said...

Chance of a tie with 3 million votes, pretty small. I just hope Franken wins just so I can hear the right wingers screaming about a stolen election after what they did in 2000.
If Franken wins this will end up in court, could the senate just declare the seat empty at that point and have a new election?

Cugel said...

Franken Just Picked Up Another Vote Just In A Test Of the Recount Procedures!

http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/34242129.html?elr=KArksc8P:Pc:Ug8P:Pc:UiacyKUnciaec8O7EyU

According to the Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune:

"Call it a sneak preview of the recount.

Twenty men and women settled in along tables at the Ramsey County elections office first thing Monday morning and began plowing through more than 7,700 ballots cast last Tuesday in the U.S. Senate race.

After nearly three hours of counting, Norm Coleman had lost exactly one net vote in five of the county's precincts. Al Franken had gained exactly one."


So, the official number is now 205 votes.

Clearly, there is some machine error. If as I Am a Fractal points out, the error rate is HIGHER in Hennepin County, that's a death blow to Coleman.

We already KNOW the official numbers from Hennepin County. If more ballots are counted in that county then Coleman will lose, that's all.

If all errors are simply random, then they shouldn't favor any candidate (IF all the ballots were already counted).

But, if SOME ballots were either NOT counted or INCORRECTLY counted, then that favors Franken.

VW: "Kindo" -- i.e. it's Kindo weird that we're still counting this many votes a week after the election!

Mike The Liberal said...

In Other Words


We won't know until they're counted, and who does the counting.

Great.

goatdan said...

@ cugel -- If Coleman loses one and Franken gains one, then the official number is now 204 votes.

And, just because it needs to be resurrected from the dead:

This is GREAT news!!!1 For Norm Coleman!!!1!11

sfergus483 said...

For precedent on the Senate ordering a new election, google New Hampshire Senate election 1974/75.

The recounts went back and forth, with ultimately the Dem being ahead by 2 votes, but with a lot of controversy.

The Dem controlled Senate let the retiring Repub Sen stay on and ordered a new election, which the Dem won.

In the unlikely event we get to that point - would a new election include Barkley, or just the two tied candidates?

Rog3li4 said...

@bostonian: no, according to the minneapolis startribune, Hennepin county has still not finalized. But if it has the same per-capita error rate, without counting the three big hasty errors elsewhere, it should move the total by under 50.

@kap: no, it's not double-counting. Think of the presidential undervotes, there are 4 kinds: the irreducible intentional undervotes, machine error, correctible voter error, and uncorrectible voter error. Senatorial undervotes have all these same categories in the same numbers, plus downticket-and-disgust intentional. The extra intentional votes doesn't magically increase the size of the other categories.

Joel said...

I don't read the comments here, so I'm not sure if anyone's pointed this out before or not, but "Final Projection" is misspelled over on the left as "Final Projecton". Just thought someone might like to know.

michael said...

Way too many Michaels on this, so here's another one.

The speculation on this is astonishing. I do remember reading a scholarly paper that asserted any vote less than 0.1% should automatically recount, since the margin of error is just too high, so obviously the recount will pick up some discrepancies. In the emotional realm, it seems possible that there may have been some unenthusiastic markings for Franken that would not have registered on the scan. I teach at a college, and even a full erasure is often misread on the optical scanning machines we use, so I think the error rate where voter intent is easily discerned could be WAY higher than Nate seems to believe. These machines are far from infallible and that is WITHOUT any political agenda

michael said...

Off topic, I know, but since, according to the Times, less than 1/3 of Southern Whites voted for Obama (90% of Alabam whites went for McCain) and the country as A whole had 43% of white voters voting for Obama, perhaps the most heartening thing about this election is as follows:

outside of racist Appalachia and the Deep South, a majority of White Americans supported Obama!

sfergus483 said...

For those checking ack for new results in MN and elsewhere, remember that most state election offices are closed today for the holiday.

The withdrawal is indeed tough...

Mike said...

@Rog3li4: Hennepin County certified their results yesterday:

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=529205

Hillary said...

This is going to be a great push toward instant-runoff voting. Ramsey and Hennepin counties both had referenda on it (I don't remember the results offhand) but I'm sure it'll be on the ballot next year, and probably in effect for 2010.

I'm sure it's old news to many here, but there was a similar recount when Coleman was elected in 2002, and there's speculation that he's pushing so hard to discredit the process now because he's at a statistical disadvantage. MinnPost has good coverage of that part of the equation.

sfergus483 said...

--This is going to be a great push toward instant-runoff voting. Ramsey and Hennepin counties both had referenda on it (I don't remember the results offhand) but I'm sure it'll be on the ballot next year, and probably in effect for 2010.--

Instant runoff implies a majority vote is need to win.

Unless the entire state of MN voted for it, referenda in individual counties will have nothing to do with future Senate races.

Neil said...

I am quickly getting to the point where I have to wonder just how long it takes Minnesota and Alaska to count some ballots. It's been a week...shouldn't we be done by now?

huggyporcupine said...

Nate, you should compare the Minnesota recount to the recount four years ago in Washington state where the Republic was up initially, then dropped after a recount, and ended up losing after a second recount by 130 votes. There are quite a few similarities between the two races.

Eric said...

I agree with Dave. I don't see the direct relation between voter error and machine error. Just because machine error is lower in Minnesota than in Florida (if indeed it is, I don't actually know but it looks possible) doesn't mean voter error is, as well. Of course the whole point is to avoid the problem of high intentionnal undervotes because it is a senate election, but you should compare machine error between the two states to have any idea whether the analysis has some grounding.

beamman said...

Man, these instances of voter error are puzzling. How does optical scan voting work in MN? Are voters simply given a ballot and a small writing surface? How else could there be such variation in the manner of marking and in the writing implements used?

Here, in Los Angeles County, we are handed a narrow paper ballot, then go to a booth, where we insert the ballot in a small device with a bunch of holes and the ballot items appearing on hinged cardboard pages, with each possible vote pointing with an arrow to a specific hole.

Each possible circle on the ballot is lined-up in place with the corresponding hole by a couple pins at the top that hold the ballot card in the correct position. There is a special inking stylus that is chained to the voting device, and the voter inserts the stylus in each hole where the voter intends to register a vote. The stylus' width matches exactly the circles on the ballot, and--when completed--the voter removes the ballot from the device. Each intended circle is, thus, perfectly filled in with the correct sort of ink.

Seems common-sense, but is that not the method and practice elsewhere?

momo said...

When I voted in Minneapolis, we were handed pens, the ballot, and a privacy sleeve. There are little curtained voting booths where you can mark your ballots. We colored in the oval next to the candidate's name. If you remembered to turn the ballot over, you could also vote in the judges races. The paper ballot is then fed into the machine, and a volunteer takes back the sleeve and the pen. That's it.

My next-door neighbor, who voted for Barkley because of the "negativity" is now chagrined because she really hates Coleman, and wishes she had voted for Franken. I did not say "I told you so."

PeteKent said...

Barack Obama made a colossal blunder on his way into the Presidency yesterday when he allowed information to leak concerning the details of his meeting with President Bush. Bush was reportedly seething over the leak. It seems President-Elect Obama does not know what is meant by “private talks”.

It casts a pall over his immediate future negotiations -- foreign or domestic – now people will go into discussions with an Obama administration with some level of doubt concerning the confidentiality of the proceedings.

Worse, the man who billed himself, at least subliminally, if not actually, on competence, as he tried to dilute the notion that he was noting more than an air-headed celebrity, is seen as having a club-footed beginning. The embarrassing disclosure of his leaky ship, now sheds on the Rahm Emmanuel pick, a less than flattering light.

Contrast Obama’s week with that of Sarah Palin. The much vilified Vice Presidential nominee has captivated the press as she has unleashed herself like no one else has done in recent history – more so even than Obama who faded to a degree after his political debut in 2004 and was not THE STORY of the post-election period as Palin currently is– at least this week.

Indeed Palin’s domination of the news cycle is benefiting Obama as it has pushed the whole story of his meet with Bush off the front pages, including the foot fault over leaking the details.

Meanwhile Palin is acquitting herself very well and has managed to go quite some distance toward rehabilitating her image. The primary impetus being the outrageous assertions that she did not know which countries comprise North America or that Africa was a continent instead of a country!

Despite Chris Matthews craven embrace of these patently false charges, they collapsed of their own weight and gave Palin an opening through which she drove the truck like force of her personality

She has more interviews, a speech and a press conference this week.

As I see it, Palin is on the upswing and is clearly the one to watch in this immediate post-election period.

William said...

An interesting graphic: http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/11/11/20081111_votemargins_33.gif

I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I *think* it supports the idea that looking more closely tends to increase Dem votes (but why would it decrease Rep votes?). But since that chart is only of changes between election and certification, can we extrapolate it to a recount? MPR just puts it out there and doesn't say anything about it.

coolstar said...

The number of INTENTIONAL undervotes in the MN Senate is, and will always be, unknowable. The number of ACCIDENTAL undervotes (either machine error or human error, both could be correctable) can be easily estimated by assuming that the total number of undervotes in the Presidential race is a close approximation to that of the Senate race. The obvious assumption is that very, very few people intentionally didn't mark a ballot in the Prez race. If the 2000 Florida percentages hold, then 32% of those will be correctable, leaving us about 3238. That's about half of what I estimated a day or so after the election. One could do a little better by just taking the undervote percentage in the prez race (about 0.35, which is very low and probably about as good as anyone in the country has done)and then taking 32% of that but it's a fairly small change. The biggest unknown in this is the fraction of correctable ballots. Let's arbitrarily assume that the error on that 32% is plus/minus 16% and that gives us a range of about 1600-4800 (first lesson in any experiment, always quote your errors, even if they are weakly constrained).
The next steps in the analysis are obvious but fraught with larger errors.

KWRegan said...

I think the answer to William's question "why would it decrease Rep votes?" is that the graphic (clickable link) denotes the margin rather than vote totals. Only the winners of each race are shown, so Coleman seeing his 2002 margin go down by over 8,000 votes could have been due to his opponent gaining many such votes. That was the Wellstone plane-crash year, which may have led to extra confusion among those not voting for Coleman, even apart from what the graphic says about that race using non-conventional ballots.

I.e., the graphic probably uniformly shows that double-checking yields more votes for Democrats---likely because more Reps are better-heeled. Hopefully the provisional-ballot system will lead to more-robust data on how lower-income voters are more "vulnerable", and lead to true reform.

WV "unrepro": Our rights are endangered by ballot systems whose results are unreproducible.

BeanoCook said...

How come Nate doesn't explain why exactly Franken would tend to get more of the undervotes? I want some details on that..

Why? Doesn't make sense? I thought Democrats were smarter? Guess not. That kind of sucks.

coolstar said...

To answer beanocook: I agree Nate has done a fairly poor job of explaining why Franken should get a higher percentage of undervotes than "normal" votes. He is however, probably correct: Most of Franken's votes came in the the bigger counties, with more undervotes bc they're bigger. Franken won those counties by a much higher percentage that the statewide average. An important additional question is whether we should expect Franken to have WON more than that weighted percentage in his best counties. I've seen no evidence that that is the case (other than the 2000 Florida analysis, but it's anyones guess if that should hold true for MN), but it's a testable hypothesis.
There are other logical mistakes being made here concerning "machine errors". First, many machine errors should be correctable and thus shouldn't be discounted. Second, even if machine errors ARE random (no reason to assume they're NOT), that doesn't mean there's no advantage if they ARE random. Example: consider Lake Woebegone county where candidate A won 60% of the votes and candidate B won 40%. If uncounted machine errors are random, candidate A will gain 20% MORE of those votes that are corrected, on average. Machine error votes should be treated just as other "undervotes".

David said...

My contempt for the people of Minnesota is bottomless. They deserve Franken. They deserve slime.

lakes book lover said...

david -- what the heck did we ever do to you? generalities are lame.

some of us here in Minnesota may not care for either of these candidates but you've got to respect the process.

I personally observed a 1600-vote "audit" of the paper ballots (compared to the machine scanned totals) today. 3 races were compared and at the end of the day, Franken was +1 -- a lightly marked "undervote" where the intent was clear.

no matter the outcome, at least every vote has a paper trail and is counted.

Jeff in CA said...

I myself did a lot of number crunching on the NORC data when it was released in late 2005. Nate's writing shows that the net margin in favor of Gore in Florida among the 2217 undervotes in these 37 optical scan counties was +116.

The NORC project also looked at overvotes and determined how many of those could be counted. These primarily consisted of ballots where the voter filled in the bubble for either Gore or Bush and then also bubbled the write-in and wrote in the name Gore or Bush. The intent of the voter is clearly discernible on these disqualified ballots. Gore had a net gain on these "overvotes" greater than 537, the official statewide margin for Bush.

Therefore, if no one had ever worried at all about the punch-card ballots (thus eliminating all of the hassles about hanging chads), a simple hand recount of the optical scan ballots in Florida would have given Gore the victory.

Of course that is just what the Florida judge was about to order when the SCOTUS halted the recount.

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平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

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平平 said...

^^ very nice

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daiqianwen said...

滿

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