As there is a lot of confusion about the nature of challenged ballots in Minnesota, a field guide of sorts is in order. From what I can gather, a campaign has four principal reasons to challenge a ballot. For purposes of this exercise, everything will be written from the standpoint of the Coleman campaign -- the four reasons that Coleman might want to challenge a ballot. If you want to think of things from the Franken campaign's point of view instead, just substitute Franken every time you see Coleman, and vice versa.
Type 1: LL (Legal Vote/Legal Vote).
Description: Ballot initially counted as a legal vote for Franken. Elections judge rules it a legal vote for Franken. Coleman challenges, argues that it shouldn't count.
Disposition: Franken loses one vote from his count. If challenge is rejected, Franken gets that vote back.
Rationale: Usually, a campaign will argue to disqualify a ballot for one of three reasons; (i) they claim it is an undervote, e.g. the voter did not fill in the oval all the way; (ii) they claim it is an overvote, e.g. there appear to be markings beside more than one candidate; (iii) they claim that the voter marked the ballot -- e.g. revealed his identity through a signature or some other distinguishing means (under Minnesota law, marked ballots are considered void).
Frequency: This is by far the most common type of challenged ballot, probably representing something like 75-80% of all challenges (or perhaps more). This is also the type of ballot most prone to gamesmanship, e.g. you can deduct a vote (temporarily) from the opponent's score even if the challenge has a low chance of being upheld. There is some evidence -- although it is debatable -- that a higher percentage of Coleman's challenges fall into this category. If so, that is good news for Franken, since these ballots have already been deducted from his total, but are likely to be added back once the challenge is rejected.
Prognosis: I would surmise that very rarely will this type of challenge prevail -- probably not more than 5% of the time, and perhaps not more than 1-2%. Minnesota has a fairly liberal (lower-case 'l') voter intent law, and if a ballot has been accepted by both the machine scanner and by the elections judge, good luck getting it rejected. About the only successful challenges, I would guess, will revolve around cases when the voter did appear to unambiguously mark the ballot, such as by signing it or providing his Social Security number.
Type 2: LX (Legal Vote/No Vote).
Description: Ballot initially counted as a legal vote for Coleman. Election judge rules that the vote isn't legal. Coleman campaign challenges, arguing that the vote should count after all.
Disposition: Coleman loses one vote from his count. If challenge is accepted, Coleman gets that vote back.
Rationale: If a machine scanner initially counted a ballot, and the elections judge then rejects it, the campaign will usually have a self-explanatory reason to appeal and will probably do so some large fraction of the time, as human beings will usually count more ballots than machines. A fair number of these cases probably involve marked ballots (see above).
Frequency: Probably about 5-10% of all challenges. May be slightly more common from the Franken campaign, if Democrats tend to be responsible for a higher fraction of sketchy ballots.
Prognosis: This is probably the type of challenge with the best chance of prevailing, since (i) the elections judge and machine scanner disagree, and (ii) Minnesota's voter intent law is in the challenger's favor, and will tend to be interpreted to count more, rather than fewer votes.
Type 3: XX (No Vote/No Vote).
Description: Ballot determined by machine to be undervote or overvote. Coleman argues it is a legal ballot and should count. Elections judge disagrees with Coleman (but agrees with machine), rules that the vote is illegal. Colmean challenges, arguing that the vote should count.
Disposition: Since the vote wasn't counted in the first place, nothing changes in the state's count. If challenge is accepted, Coleman gains a vote.
Rationale: By definition, the campaign will argue that voter intent is discernible. Among the more controversial cases will be those where voter appears to have crossed the name of one (or more) candidates out before voting for another one; these will usually be read as overvotes by the machine but are allowable if voter intent is clear.
Frequency: Likely the next most common case after Type 1, probably accounting for about 10% of challenges. My inference is that this type of challenge is more common from the Franken campaign, as it appears to occur more often in blue precincts.
Prognosis: The challenge may have a fighting chance, but with both the machine scanner and the elections judge having ruled against the ballot, it's an uphill battle.
Type 4: XL (No Vote/Legal Vote).
Description: Ballot determined by machine to be undervote or overvote. Elections judge disagrees, rules that the vote shows intent for Franken. Colmean challenges, arguing that the vote should not count after all.
Disposition: Since the vote wasn't counted in the initial count, nothing changes immediately. However, Coleman has to win his challenge, or else Franken gains a vote. For that reason, you don't so much mind Type 4 challenges, since most will be rejected and you'll probably be gaining a vote.
Rationale: If the machine rejected the ballot the first time around, it will usually have some type of imperfection, as instances of true machine error are relatively rare among optical scanners.
Frequency: Somewhat self-limiting, since a prerequisite is that machine and elections official have to disagree ... unlikely to be more than 5% of challenges. May be slightly more common from the Coleman campaign, if indeed there are more marginal Franken ballots.
Prognosis: The campaign is on the wrong side of the voter intent presumption, although the fact that there was a disagreement between the machine and the elections judge provides hope. You'd certainly prefer to take your chances with this type of challenge than a Type 1.
*-*
That should account for almost all challenges, although there are a few oddball cases. Apparently, for instance, both campaigns may challenge the same undervoted (and rejected) ballot if they each think it shows intent for their candidate. Theoretically, a campaign could also argue that a vote has been counted for the wrong candidate (e.g. Coleman argues that a Franken vote should be a Coleman vote, rather than a no-vote), but I'd guess that these cases are exceptionally rare. One exception may be votes for third-party candidates (e.g. a Barkley vote that Coleman wants counted as a Coleman vote), where a campaign might have a slightly easier time closing the sale since the third-party won't have representation in the room; these instances would be essentially analagous to Type 3 challenges.
Takeaways and Extensions:
- Type 1 challenges are by far the most common type, and are probably becoming even more common as challenge wars escalate, since there's an essentially unlimited supply of legal ballots. However, casual observers seem to assume that *all* challenges are Type 1; they are not.
- Type 1 challenges are also the only type that result in an immediate deduction from the opponent's pre-recount total.
- There is more of a one-to-one correspondence between the number of challenges and deductions from the opponent's total in red (Coleman) precincts, suggesting that a higher fraction of challenges are Type 1 in such precincts. (n.b. Franken has challenged a higher percentage of ballots in such precincts).
- Type 1 challenges almost certainly have the least chance of being accepted.
- Type 2 challenges probably have the best chance of being accepted.
- Type 1 and Type 4 challenges are "no win" challenges. The vote is already being excluded from your opponent's total, which is the best you can do; if the challenge is rejected, the opponent nets a vote. You would like for as many of your opponent's challenges as possible to be Type 1 and Type 4 (especially Type 1).
- Type 2 and Type 3 challenges are "no lose" challenges. The vote hasn't been counted for you yet, but could be counted if the challenge is accepted. You would like for as many of your challenges as possible to be Type 2 and Type 3 (especially Type 2).
- Bayesian probability is largely responsible for dictating the relative frequencies of different types of challenged ballots. There are far more legal ballots than undervotes, and the elections judge will agree with the machine scanner more often than he disagrees with it. Therefore, Type 1 challenges are the most common (legal ballots where the judge agrees with the machine), and Type 4 are probably the least common (undervotes where the judge overrules the machine).
11.25.2008
Minnesota Challenged Ballot Primer
by Nate Silver @ 9:30 AM
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92 comments
First!
Thank Nate.
What I cannot believe is how long the process is allowed to take. There is no reason each precinct should not have started counting already.
i dont know why they havent finished already. some to start counting dec 3?
how about those absentee ballots? i havent heard anything about how many there are that were rejected.
one story had lost ballots of 243
that were found. 143 for franken 140 for coleman??? isnt that 283???
what is with the terrible counting? doesnt any reporter or state official know how to count or have access to a calculator?
Fred
When there are politicians, lawyers and elections involved in America, one should not be surprised how long the process is allowed to take.
Also, the outrage in Florida vis-a-vis the Supreme Court stopping the recount in 2000 was the fact the process was not allowed to continue.
Nate, your twisted logic so early in the morning! Get me my Advil!
Let's look at the facts on the ground this morning in St. Paul:
"..the piles of recounted ballots from red counties, where Republican Sen. Norm Colman might be expected to pick up a few stray votes? Or blue counties, where DFL challenger Al Franken might have the advantage?
But Minneapolis — the biggest, bluest pile of all — is turning that logic on its head. With nearly half of its ballots recounted, the city Franken calls home isn't doing the candidate any favors. And that could be dimming Franken's hopes of catching Coleman before the state canvassing board meets Dec. 16.
"Things are clearly moving in the wrong direction for Franken," said Larry Jacobs, director of the University of Minnesota's Center for the Study of Politics and Governance.
With fewer than half of the ballots counted in Minneapolis, Franken has lost 86 votes, while Coleman has lost just 37. In other words, the city could be blunting any recount advantage Franken might have in the rest of the state as the recount rolls toward its Dec. 5 deadline."
http://www.twincities.com/ci_11066069?nclick_check=1
Nate, buddy! Before its too late, restore your 'cred' by coming clean - Coleman is going to win this recount showing the world your plus 27 vote proclamation is pure baloney.
there are a couple of things in here I could do with some help with.
I can understand that a machine is unlikely to count a Franken vote as a Coleman vote (no chads here), but could votes not get into the wrong pile by mistake during the recount, which is being done manually?
This is actually one of the most common things that is found to have happened in the UK, where we mainly have manual counting.
The other thing is: how come only Coleman and Franken are allowed challenges? Don't the other candidates get the chance to try and hang on to their proper share of the vote? How is that fair?
I have a particular interest in this issue. The first time I was elected to the council I serve on currently, the first count was a dead heat. The recount found one extra vote for me. There were a total of 9 disputed ballots (unclear voter intent, crossings out, writing on the ballot paper etc). We successfully argued for 5 of those ballots to be counted for me and the other 4 were not counted. I won by 6.
All that only took one night. I was almost unable to stand with the tension. How Franken and Coleman are coping I have no idea.
"if a ballot has been accepted by both the machine scanner and by the elections judge"
- there is no way to know whether a ballot was accepted [as a vote] by the machine scanner
"Ballot initially counted as a legal vote for Coleman"
Again, Nate - there is no way to know this. What is the source of this premise?
Michael's comment is the reason why Coleman has so many frivolous challenges. "Oh, but the media says Coleman's not losing as many votes as Franken needs him to." And people like Michael can't get strategy or fact through their head to the point that they realize that the Coleman campaign is simply using a tactic to make himself appear victorious according to the recount but without all that "liberal bias" the bipartisan elections committee is "obviously" going to shove down the Republicans' throats.
Hannity's head is going to explode after all this is over.
In light of all the crap that's going on with some of these challenges, plus the huge time sink this has become, I humbly propose a couple of special rules for challenges (borrowed from the sports world).
1. Submit your challenges quietly and quickly. No arguments or counterarguments on the spot. Penalty: three strikes and you're out of the room.
2. If you make an obviously frivolous challenge -- e.g., the only basis for the claim of an undervote is how that voter marked the ballot for another office, e.g., president -- you lose the challenge and incur a 1-vote penalty to your candidate.
3. Rule number 3 is Nate's rule number 1 for posting here: Don't be an asshole. Penalty here is that the individual representative of a campaign who gets mean, loud, or abusive is thrown out of the game, with the "team" automatically losing its 5 next non-frivolous challenges.
wv: cousnie
"And that could be dimming Franken's hopes of catching Coleman before the state canvassing board meets Dec. 16."
That's the point Michael! As Nate has said previously, the media should recognize at this point that any official numbers before the canvassing board convenes is quite useless. The recount numbers are just part of the PR war at this stage. Nate's prediction was based on extrapolating the number of votes based on the ratio of one county where there were no challenges (as I interpreted it, anyway). Therefore, just as you point out, since Coleman has more challenges than Franken, that is all the more reason to think that most challenges are frivolous, and therefore Franken gets a net gain.
Nate's prediction may still be right, just be patient.
Evan, your contention (and Nate's) that their are more Coleman challenges than Franken is false. The official recount site of the State of Minnesota is as follows:
http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/SenateRecount.asp
As you can see, with your own eyeballs, Franken has 1401 challenges to Coleman's 1400.
What's with you guys? Are you so blinded by your bias you can no longer read the numbers on the screen?
I'm finding that the more that is written about this recount, the less clarity.
During the hand recount, there is no way to know whether or how an individual ballot was counted by the machines. This doesn't render Nate's categorization of the challenge "types" invalid, just vaguely misleading.
There is no reason to rush counties to start recounting. The state canvassing board does not meet until mid-december, so as long as everyone's done by then, no big deal. Staggering the start dates for the counties means more work can be done by fewer people (e.g. the campaigns need to muster fewer volunteers to observe the process). Minnesota wants it done right and fairly, not fast.
Really, all this analysis (read: speculation) is not contributing much in the way of understanding. The only facts that need to be known right now is that there are substantially more challenged ballots than there are votes between them, and it is impossible to know who actually won until the state canvassing board resolves the challenges. Any more detailed conclusions are just voodoo and tea-leaf reading because the data just isn't there to support them.
After Fla, then Ohio, people are going to be resistant to spin. Stop wasting time, count the votes and let's move on...
2. If you make an obviously frivolous challenge -- e.g., the only basis for the claim of an undervote is how that voter marked the ballot for another office, e.g., president -- you lose the challenge and incur a 1-vote penalty to your candidate.
This isn't a game. You can't take away someone's vote based on the stupidity of a partisan scrutineer.
I'd really like to see scans of these ballots.
I want to see some evidence that these challenges will do anything whatsoever to change the final outcome, and that they won't be a wash.
Nate: How on earth are you claiming to be able to tell between Type 1 and Type 2 challenges.
ALL we have are the number of ballots deducted from each candidate's total and the number of challenges by both parties.
We DON'T know whether there are a LOT of machine overcounts disputed by the judges -- Type 2 or whether it's gamesmanship -- Type 1.
Both would result in a temporary deduction and neither is likely to be upheld by the Canvassing Board.
Both campaigns are complaining about the Type 1 challenges from their opponents, but ignoring their own Type 1 challenges. Both have "wall of shame" examples of clearly legal ballots challenged frivolously by their opponent.
This DOES have something to do with "frivolous challenges" since almost all Type 1 challenges ARE frivolous! Most undervote challenges -- Type 3 are also going to be frivolous too!
If both the machine and the judge rule "no vote" then it's just a shot in the dark to try and gain a vote on that ballot.
@David: obviously my proposal was tongue in cheek.
P.S. It IS a game, with tons of gamesmanship. Haven't you been reading the press?
Michael. Did you even read this entry? Or do you have some grudge that only constant trolling on this site can cure?
Your post reflects exactly the type of ignorance that Nate's post just explained away.
If Coleman is making more Type 1 (or Type 4) challenges than Franken, he make Franken LOSE more votes. The story you quoted actually proves the opposite of your point.
Sedi, you obviously didn't read my post. It was addressed to Evan who said in his post:
"Therefore, just as you point out, since Coleman has more challenges than Franken, that is all the more reason to think that most challenges are frivolous, and therefore Franken gets a net gain."
My response was addressed to Evan to counter his false statement. Understand?
Thanks for this post and explanation, Nate. Yesterday's post about Coleman's challenges correlating to Franken getting more votes was confusing to my simple brain, but now it makes more sense, I think:
something about how Coleman is challenging a ton of Franken votes where Coleman has a net gain in the re-count, so, I'm thinking, this means most of those challenges will go back to Franken after the Canvassing Board meets (as they were Franken votes all along and thus there was no real "net gain" for Coleman in thos precincts) and thus Franken could go ahead in the certified totals. Something like that.
Nate -- the Minneapolis/St. Paul Star-Tribune claims "Rejected Absentee Ballots May Decide It" - http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/11/24-2
Your analysis pleases?
Hey guys, Nate's human. He makes mistakes, e.g., using "e.g." ["for example"] where he should use "i.e." ["that is," or "in other words"].
Sometimes his models are opaque, and sometimes just wrong.
But he's not stupid. Sometimes he's a step ahead or way lot deeper in his thinking than we give him credit for.
On his prediction of this election, he's also being media strategic, in my opinion. This is something he's proved to be extremely good at. If he hits the 27 on the head (already hedged yesterday) he's golden -- but it's an extreme long-shot. If he's anywhere close to the actual number and Franken wins, Nate also wins the media cycle -- because he made this projection at a time when for a few weeks now Coleman has maintained the official lead in the count.
wv: outscryt (right: outscrewed)
Sedi, how soon you forget from yesterday afternoon:
"We'll update these numbers "officially" with the Secretary of State's data dump at 8 PM, but based on intraday numbers compiled by the Star Tribune (as of 4:42 PM local time), Norm Coleman's rate of challenges continues to skyrocket while Al Franken's -- though much higher than it had been on the first couple days of the recount process -- has leveled off some.
Coleman's rate of challenges thus far today is approximately 23.4 for every 10,000 ballots cast. On Wednesday, the first day of the recount, Coleman's rate of challenges was 2.5 per 10,000 ballots. So for some reason, the Coleman campaign is finding reason to challenge more than nine times as many ballots as it did on Wednesday (and the Franken campaign, for its part, is finding reason to challenge about five times as many ballots)."
As we now know, Sedi, Nate was all wet on this post.
Based purely on intuition, I would think that a type 4 challenge would be far more common than you suggest. If a voter put an X through an oval, or circled a candidate, that would put you in a situation where a party could make this type of challenge.
And if you are the party forfeiting such a new vote to the other candidate, why not challenge it, especially given that the campaigns seem to be erring on the side of challenging? The challenger will have an argument that almost inherently passes the laugh test: "The intent was not strong enough for the machine to pick it up; so it was not enough intent."
Wow, Michael, you really are a moron!
This provides a description of several disputed MN ballots, and offers a humorous perspective on the vote-challenge procedure.
Hey- Sorry to be repetitive, but most of this modeling is highly unstable because it lacks any definite results to compare with, since neither the initial machine-count nor the 'challenged' batch are good enough for our purposes. The only good batch of stats is from the 206 hand-counted precincts reviewed before the 'challenged' recount process. See my posts on the previous thread for the laboriously extracted results.
Bottom line: the real count will be a little better for Franken than the 'challenged' running recount, but it still looks short of what he needs. Systematic errors in this estimate should be small, but the purely statistical errors are large enough to include a Franken win at modest probability (Ballpark one sigma or so.)
And I am not the Republican Michael who posted above. /mbw
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@Michael
Your tiny little brain fails to comprehend once again that Coleman is chucking tons of Franken ballots esp. in Franken strongholds.
This is the best evidence for Nate's argument you fool. Read Nate's Blog before making ignorant comments.
You'll see. The Repub stain will be wiped clean from MN. Amen.
Nate's assumption about the type of challenges isn't just conjecture, but based off the data available, although I don't think he has explained how he got it enough for some posters to understand (then again, even if he did they might not get it). To try to clarify, here's how it works:
Looking at St Louis county since it is one of the bigger ones and the current data (as in when I post this right now, Michael you can't prove me wrong if it changes later), the totals from the originals are:
Coleman -69 votes
Franken -126 votes
"Net gain" of 57 Coleman votes
Coleman challenges 222 votes
Franken challenges 128 votes
So, assuming that the most common challenges are type one and four, it means that of those votes you can potentially 'take away' votes with challenges or have a zero net gain with the challenges.
Now, Coleman has challenged 222 votes and had 126 votes 'wiped' from Franken's record. That is a rate of .5676 votes wiped per challenge. Franken, on the flip side has had 128 challenges and 'wiped' 69 votes for a rate of .5391 votes wiped per challenge.
Looking at this, it shows that for every 1000 challenges, an additional 28 would already be type four votes for Franken, while the Coleman votes would have been more of the type 1 challenges by Coleman.
Now, if we state that 95% of the type 1 votes will count, for every 1000 challenges issued, Fraken would gain 540 votes from type 1 Coleman votes and if 5% of type 4 votes counted, he would gain an additional 23 for an addition to him of 563 votes for every 1000 challenges.
Coleman on the flip side gains 512 votes from type 1 Coleman votes and 22 votes from type 4 challenges assuming the same math as above.
This gives Franken a swing of 29 votes.
Now, obviously this isn't a perfect situation because if you look at the -current- challenge totals and vote loss totals for both candidates, they have narrowed dramatically within the last day or so, and that actually doesn't bode well for Franken. At this point in time, with them nearly even on challenges, the only data that can be extrapolated between those two without knowing what type of challenges that they are is that it's still a complete toss up that will come down to the canvassing board and what they agree to count.
People here keep looking at this as if "nobody" knows what sort of challenges are being made. But the truth is that there are two groups of people, the Coleman camp and the Franken camp, who do know. Obviously they are keeping track in either a very specific or at the very least in a fairly accurate general way.
So... instead of turning statistics on it's head by using regression analysis based on speculation and bias, why not remember what we are dealing with here.
It's politics... and if you want to know how something is going in politics you listen to the spin and you read between the lines.
Last week when the St Louis and Ramsy undervotes were found the Franken camp was very vocal and in the news. At one point suggesting that they believed they had cut the lead to under 100 votes.
The Coleman camp shot back with the suggestion that the Franken Camp was only gaining votes due to an increase in frivilous challenges (at the time of those quotes, Franken had challenged about 40 more ballots than Coleman).... but going from 215 down to 110 with a minimal challenge difference the spin didnt hold up. Franken was clearly picking up votes, it was only a matter of how many.
This week, however, it's the Coleman camp which is showing a little more bravado. Now that St Louis county and the city of St Paul is counted, they are suggesting that Franken did not pick up the votes that they needed in those two strongholds and that they are not doing as well as expected in Minneapolis (in fact the local election experts believe that Coleman and not Franken has picked up a handful of votes in Minneapolis at this point). It's easy to see based on the numbers in St Louis county that the gains were minimal which helps bolster the claim.
The Franken camp's spin at this point appears as weak as the Coleman spin last week. Instead of suggesting that they will have the sorts of gains that they need from Minneapolis, they are suggesting that when all is said and done that they will have "gained" in Minneapolis. They also seem to be making way too big of a deal about ballot total differences (as in what they believe are missing ballots).
Lastly... the spin coming from all of the local election experts is that Coleman is holding Franken off at this point. Now granted, these are some of the same experts who suggested we would see 5000 undervotes (when I suggested all along we would be lucky to 1000 between the two candidates) but they are also classic liberals and usually look for any spin that goes left. (perhaps they need to take a cue from Nate).
Bottom line... Franken started out well (which could be expected based on the precincts being counted on the first couple of days) but has not been able to keep the momentum going. I think it was his camp that originally started increasing the challenges as a way to make it seem he was still gaining, and now the Coleman camp has gone with that and run... which is why it shows him back up almost his origina amount.
You want a guess... based on the spin, based on what we know, and based on no assumptions or bias? Franken is still behind, probably by about 150 votes or so... and I don't think he will catch up.
Nate: "Colmean"
BIAS!!!1
Frankly, I think that someone who can't properly fill in bubbles shouldn't be allowed to vote based on mental incompetence.
If Franken is behind more than 50 votes when you subtract the challenges from the real votes, then it would be almost impossible for him to win this recount. This morning that number was at 176 votes. (Franken has picked up 49 votes). Startribune.com is reporting that Franken has picked up 43 more(not challenged)votes than Coleman. That is 20% of the votes he needs with 75% of the votes counted. There could of course- as Nate is pointing out- be a slight difference in the nature of challenged ballots, but it's not likely that it would count for more than a few votes.
RHAOMI said 'Colmean'
re: Nate's freudian typo in the description of Type 3 Above...
sometimes a cigar is just a cigar but at other times, if the shoe fits...
Even if we presume -- arguendo -- that Nathan's prediction is skewed toward a Franken victory, in what way would that support the idea that his reasoning is 'biased'?
Because he personally wants Franken to win? Somebody please explain to me why the idea of an 'over-optimistic' prediction indicates bias?
Presumably, the founding of FiveThirtyEight was motivated in part by the sloppy exit polling of 2004, and its misleading pro-Kerry slant?
Unlike an argument or a narrative description, data analysis cannot be tendentious. What would be the point? The desire to be handed an unexpected crushing blow when the true results are revealed? If there's anything Dems have grown wary of, it's an overabundance of optimism.
"Unlike an argument or a narrative description, data analysis cannot be tendentious."
Of course, what I meant to say is that the use of data analysis in predicting election results cannot, structurally speaking, be tendentious.
Wouldn't Type 2 challenges also result in a deduction from the initial count?
Also, when the canvassing board meets to rule on challenged ballots, do they have a case history? I think I'd prefer they didn't, that they just see the ballot and rule on it with no prior knowledge to influence them (though I doubt it works that way).
WV: I can see rusla from my house.
You can see some samples of challenged ballots here: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2008/11/19_challenged_ballots/.
Note to Minnesota: Great system, except for two details.
1. Those varying types of voting machines used in one county that are more prone to error need to go.
2. A challenged ballot should still count in the reported totals, removing the Public Relations reason for extra challenges.
Why are there no representatives of Barkley present? Yes, I know he has no chance of emerging the winner. But as a candidate in a disputed election, I would assume he would have a legal right to have agents present as ballots are reviewed. (For instance, to prevent one of the campaigns from tipping the race by converting marginal Barkley ballot marks into votes for their own candidate.)
So, is his absence a matter of law, or just practicality (such as financial constraints, or inability to recruit observers)?
David said:
Frankly, I think that someone who can't properly fill in bubbles shouldn't be allowed to vote based on mental incompetence.
So someone with Parkinson's shouldn't be allowed to vote? Okey dokey. I guess it's a good thing you're not in charge.
I mean, I really hope you're not in charge of much of anything, anywhere. Please tell me you're assembling widgets in a factory somewhere. It'll help me sleep at night. Thanks.
This is an EXCELLENT description of what is actually happening on the ground. I would add that there are also "special circumstance" challenges taking place that have to do with discrepancies between duplicate ballots and their corresponding original, if it exists.
@ CH Truth---great comment, here's some more info:
1. According to theUptake.org just now, a Franken presser pegged the "true gap" at 84 just now.
This accords with your reading that they quickly cut the lead to under 100 votes but then stalled out, except without slipping back to 150 behind.
2. Franken presser also allege that lost ballots total "in the hundreds".
3. They also report that they've received info on 6400 rejected absentee ballots in 66 counties. Apparently the Canvassing board will meet tomorrow to judge whether those ballots can even be in play.
4. My sense is that the campaigns are not being totally arbitrary with the challenges of type 1 (LL). The higher rate may be a matter of setting wider thresholds---e.g. how filled in does the oval have to be?---and on these there's a natural tendency for observers at one recount location and then the campaigns on the whole to converge. I.e. I think the challenges arise from the same sets of pretexts, and hence I think we can apply Bayesian probability based on the vote per precinct. Perhaps this reproduces what Nate wrote above---I like that there's a concrete prediction of the % of L/L challenges for each side.
Yes, as KWRegan says Franken's group says the real gap is now 84. This is very much in line with my estimates based on the hand-review. I believe they are telling the truth. It is not especially good news. The 'Eagle' precincts gave about 30 of the 131 vote gain. That means that the total gain would be about 30 +101*100/77, or about 160. F needs a total gain of 215. So it's another estimate, by people who really have the data (and sound as if they're being honest), which points to a Coleman win by 60 or so if nobody looks for new valid absentees.
Intrade may be considering that MN law is very much on the side of counting all legitimate attempts to vote, so some of those absentees will come in, and they're believed to favor F. C is still favored, but not by a lot.
/mbw
Oh David,
Unfortunately, part of being in a democratic society means everyone, even the incompetent, have to have an equal say in things. Besides, given the sheer number of people that allow someone else to decide who they'll vote for-whether it's their parents, the media, their friends, or some pamphlet someone handed them on their way into the polling station-you know, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most voters are incompetent to some degree or another. We can't exclude you just because you're stupid, though. If we did, there,d probably only be about 100 or so people in the country that could vote at all. Which is no fun, because that's like throwing a party and having 2 people who are smart but lack any entertainment value show up.
Cugel said "Nate: How on earth are you claiming to be able to tell between Type 1 and Type 2 challenges."
He makes no such claim. However, out of the challenges to votes the judge calls "legal", IN FACT most of them were machine-accepted (causing the judge's totals to be lower than the machine count; and meaning that this subtraction will end up being undone) while some were not. The fact that we cannot for sure tell which is which does not have any relevance to the probabilities of the results.
CH Truth said "I think it was [Franken's] camp that originally started increasing the challenges as a way to make it seem he was still gaining"
That's just the opposite of the facts; this is a matter of record, not of opinion.
lompe said "There could of course- as Nate is pointing out- be a slight difference in the nature of challenged ballots, but it's not likely that it would count for more than a few votes."
Or, as I expect, there will be a MASSIVE difference in the nature of the challenged ballots, counting for hundreds of votes.
MSS said "Why are there no representatives of Barkley present? Yes, I know he has no chance of emerging the winner."
So he has no legal standing. He has no legal right to get the exact number by which he fell into third place recorded precisely.
"But as a candidate in a disputed election, I would assume he would have a legal right to have agents present as ballots are reviewed. (For instance, to prevent one of the campaigns from tipping the race by converting marginal Barkley ballot marks into votes for their own candidate.)"
He has no more legal interest in preventing that than ANYONE ELSE has in preventing a false outcome.
What about voter vouchers? Minnesota voter registration laws are such that I could have done a state wide tour on Nov 4th and voted in every single precinct provided that I could find someone in each of those precincts that would sign a statement attesting that I did indeed live in the precinct I wanted to vote in:
Minnesota Registration Requirements
Obviously there is a lot of room for fraud here. With the recount is anybody checking up on this sort of thing?
Minnesota law is clear that rejected absentee ballots are not 'valid ballots' to be part of the recount under the law. The canvassing board will reject Franken's plea and tell him he must
go to US District Court in an attempt to get these ballots in the mix. Franken's problem is these absentee ballots were each rejected for a reason - it is likely he will lose in US District Court as well. He then can take the matter to the US Senate for a final decision. IF the US Senate (controlled by Democrats) gives the seat to Franken, without Franken having won a single vote total anywhere along the way, then the Republican Party is made anew in Minnesota and the DFL party becomes toxic for a decade or more. It is going to be very interesting. Franken and his supporters will want to take this to the Senate, but the Minnesota DFL will not because they know what the Minnesota voter reaction will be to award the Senate seat to someone who didn't win at the ballot box.
I asked why no third party representation some time ago - and MSS has enquired too. Bob X, whom I have no reason to doubt, says there is no legal right for Barkley to have his vote properly recorded.
IS THAT REALLY TRUE?
You mean in a properly run election in the US only SOME of the candidates get to have their votes counted properly? What sort of way is that to run an election?
Sorry, and I know I am a foreigner and all (although a friendly one I hope)but apart from just being morally WRONG, it demonstrates only too clearly how much skewed towards a 2 party system the US is. And how peculiar that you can't count all the votes accurately.
Have a look at a European election sometime - any country you like. Huge numbers of candidates, huge numbers of parties, all the votes counted, and all the candidates given their totals. And certainly in the UK at least, all candidates can argue over disputed ballots.
And although as individual countries we have smaller electorates, we will be running elections to the European parliament next June more or less simultaneously in 27 countries, so don't tell me that's small compared to the US.
If Bob X is right, then to be honest, I'm shocked.
Obviously there is a lot of room for fraud here. With the recount is anybody checking up on this sort of thing?
There's obviously a lot of room for fraud when it comes to passing bad checks. You could do a statewide tour of Minnesota passing bad checks in every single precinct. Now, can you think of a reason why you might not do it despite how apparently "easy" it might be?
there is no legal right for Barkley to have his vote properly recorded.
This is a recount because the margin of victory is less than .5%. If Barkley wants his votes recounted he can either pay for it, or get within .5% of winning to justify the state paying for it.
MIVHAEL
your arguments always in favor of COLMEAN are laughable & patheticly partisan.
how is an absentee ballot any different than any other vote count ?
just because 'someone' has ruled it 'invalid' doesn't make it any less of a vote than an apparent undervote
because you say it is so on a technicality ?
MN law is clear on voter 'intent', so then it very well might be up to the courts to decide where the 'technicality' line should properly be drawn - but certainly not at the arbitrary discretion of your ilk
WV - kingfunt...
if you have a recount in the UK ALL the votes are recounted. Nobody is charged for a recount.
It may seem perfectly normal to all of you to only recount some of the votes, but to me it is just not right. How can you be sure you got the right answer? There are so many things that could be wrong. Votes for Coleman or Franken in the Barkley pile, votes for Barkley not drawn attention to in the Coleman or Franken piles, numbers of votes not tallying - and you might find the missing ones if you recounted Barkley....etc etc.
I tell you, of all the things that you guys do in elections, a lot of them are better than what we do over here in the UK. But this one is just plain wrong as far as I am concerned. Even charging people for a recount is wrong - what if there is a problem but the candidate can't raise the cash?
@ Michael -- Where is it clear under the law that improperly rejected absentee ballots are not to be part of the recount?
In my opinion, any time there is a question with absentee ballots, they should first go with the nature to invalidate them, but then if it is close like this vote is, go back to determine if the reason for invalidating them was appropriate. If Coleman won by 100,000 votes, anything less than 100,000 absentee ballots couldn't make any difference. But in a close vote, *every* vote deserves to get counted.
This is something I don't understand about the Republican party and one of the things that drove me away from it. Too many of you think that there should be a 'test' to decide if you can vote or not, and then a bunch of parameters placed around which ones can count or not -- oh yeah, and these parameters just happen to favor your guys all the time.
Democrats may want the same thing, but they and the people who claim to be part of the party online tend to want to count every ballot properly.
If Franken loses in the recount, I would expect that he, as well as most Democrats will be understanding as long as the process is fully followed. If Coleman loses, much bitching will ensue regardless of how fair the system was, and you'll all get fired up about how you need to make sure that certain groups of people (generally called "minorities", although you won't label them as such during this time) shouldn't be able to vote because you find them stupid.
@ Mrs B -- I think that the Barkley campaign could have people there to do oversight if they wanted, however they would have to pay for the people overseeing the recount. Since Barkley has no change of winning in the recount, Barkley and his campaign are not spending the additional money to look at his votes.
In the end, while the vote tally may be even lets say 200 off for Barkley, he will still lose resoundingly.
Okay, Nate has given lots of ideas and numbers here. So let's try to use them to make some calculations:
First of all, let us try to evaluate the breakdown of challenges among each Type:
Type 1: "about 75-80% of all, probably more from Coleman"
Type 2: "about 5-10% of all, probably more from Franken"
Type 3: "about 10% of all, slightly more from Franken"
Type 4: "about 5% of all, slightly more from Coleman"
Based on this, here is a possible estimate of how each camp broke down their challenges
..... Col. ... Fran.
1- ... 82% .... 73%
2- ... 5% .... 10%
3- ... 7% .... 13%
4- ... 6% .... 4%
(sorry for the lousy alignment of the column)
Now the probability that they are accepted:
Type 1: pretty unlikely, let's say 2% chance they are accepted (thus keeping the scores unchanged) and 98% chance they are dismissed (thus adding these ballots back to the opponent's column)
Type 2: good chance of being accepted, let's say 80% (thus adding these ballots in the column of the candidate challenging it) and 20% chance they are dismissed (keeping the score as it is)
Type 3: little chance, let's say 10% of being accepted (thus adding these ballots in the column of the candidate challenging it) and 90% chance they are dismissed (keeping the score as it is)
Type 4: not very likely, let's say 10% of being accepted (thus keeping the scores unchanged) and 90% chance they are dismissed (thus adding these ballots back to the opponent's column)
Therefore, here is the gain that each candidate would obtain for each challenges (they gain if their own type 2 and 3 challenges are accepted and if their opponent's type 1 and 4 are dismissed):
Noting "nc" the total number of challenges by Coleman and "nf" the total number of challenges by Franken, here is the breakdown:
.... Coleman ..... Franken
1- ... 73%*nf*98% ... 82%*nc*98%
2- ... 5%*nc*80% ... 10%*nf*80%
3- ... 7%*nc*10% ... 13%*nf*10%
4- ... 4%*nf*90% .... 6%*nc*90%
In TOTAL, Coleman would thus gain 0.7514*nf + 0.047*nc votes
and Franken would gain 0.8576*nc + 0.093*nf votes
Net gain for Franken = 0.8106*nc - 0.6584*nf
Okay, these are the formulas that can be used at any time as the recount progresses: to illustrate this abstract analysis, let us take the current values: as of now 1,587 Coleman challenges (nc) and 1,544 Franken challenges (nf). Replacing in the above expressions, here is what each candidat gains from each challenge type:
... Coleman ... Franken
1- .. 1,105 .... 1,275
2- .... 63 ...... 124
3- .... 11 ....... 20
4- .... 56 ....... 86
----------------------------
Total 1,235 ... 1,505
Net Franken gain: 1,505-1,235 = 270 votes !
In other words, using Nate's 4 types and estimates, we can evaluate that, as of now, Franken might gain about 270 votes from the challenges.
No one is charged for a recount if it is close. No recount is needed if it isn't close.
As for Barkley.. if one of his votes is ruled to go to Franken or Coleman, then Coleman or Franken will challenge. If one of his votes is rejected, then he loses by more than he originally did. Neither of those affect the selection of the final winner. The two-party system is a reality, but the recount system is not slanted against him.. he just didn't do well enough to be included in it.
@goatdan
I think I still don't get this.
Maybe you can help?
Who exactly does Barkley have to pay? Surely he could have volunteers to do the challenging? Does he have to pay the counting staff?
Even if you lose resoundingly, over here in the UK there is still a lot of competition to see if you beat other losing parties. We of course have far more political parties. In my local area, only Conservatives or Liberal Democrats can get elected to anything, but there is much competition between the Labour party (who of course nationally are in government) and the UK Independence Party (right wing, want to take the UK out of the EU) as to who came third or fourth. Sometimes there's only a handful of votes in it. With you firm two party system, that plurality doesn't come into it I suppose.
And voting systems also make a difference. For the European elections we will be electing using a proportional voting system. For example, in the South East of the UK we will be electing 10 MEPs on a party list system. So if a party gets 50% of the total vote, they will get 5 of the MEPs. But as you can probably work out, with lots of minor parties, the difference between 9.7% and 9.8% of the vote can be the difference between getting an MEP or not for your party. So every vote absolutely counts.
DCM in Fl. The proceeding tomorrow is before the Minnesota Canvassing board that is responsible, under Minnesota election law, to conduct the recount of 'valid ballots'. Clearly, absentee ballots that were not accepted by each local and county election officials were considered 'not valid' for any number of reasons. The most common being that they voter was not lawfully registered - but that is not relevant to the decision made Wednesday. The canvassing board is not a court and has no power to interpret the law - only the US District Court can do this. If these absentee ballots are to be counted they must past muster with the court - fair and square - do you have a problem with that?
(mbw the statistical Dem, net the talking-point Rep)
I looked more carefully again at the data from the initial hand recount. Since the precincts were a little smaller than average, the proper extrapolation factor to the whole state is 32, not 25. Thus the correction to the running recount when challenges are fixed would be 5*32 or 160 for Franken, again with about 100% error bars.
Added to the (slightly extrapolated) running count, that gives C up by around 50, in unreasonably good agreement with the extrapolation from the recent Franken reports. (see above)
So here's the big question: is there a margin like that in the fraction of absentee rejects which the courts might perhaps allow?
A second question, really bugging me: what's the approximate marginal cost of a vote in a race like this? $100? If I'd double maxed-out instead of single and gotten my wife in too, would we have won it? Very upsetting./mbw
I know I'm off topic still, but hope you'll indulge me. Is there much discussion in the US of moving away from first past the post to a proportional voting system?
Mrs B, remember this is a two-party system, usually. Minnesota happens to have three major parties, but as he's WELL outside any conceivable margin where a recount would turn the results in his favor, the only number Barkley cares about is 5%. If he gets over 5%, his party, the Independence Party, is considered a "major party" in Minnesota, and gets state money and other privileges. He got well over 5%, a recount isn't necessary to verify that, so he doesn't much care about a hundredth of a percentage point (and those are the margins we're talking about here).
Incidentally, his ballots are being recounted, they're just being included in the "other candidate" pile. As no one within that "other candidate" pile except him even got 1% of the vote, again, there's no incentive for him to get volunteers and lawyers and etc for a recount.
Is there much discussion in the US of moving away from first past the post to a proportional voting system?
There is no discussion of this nationally. There is discussion in some local jurisdictions to use instant runoff instead of plurality to determine who will represent a district.
I think instant runoff is a version of what we call single transferable vote - you rank candidates and when counting the candidate with the least first preferences gets dropped and their second preferences are distributed to the remaining candidates until somebody gets over 50%. Yes?
KWRegan....
The Franken Press conference does declare that the count is down to 84. They apparently get this by having their people keep track of how the county officials are actually ruling on the ballots at the time. This is what the Secretary of State office should be reporting.
I actually went back and watched some of the old press conferences, and it was after day two that they originally declared that the count was down to double digits.
There are two points to make about this... each press conference I noticed the Franken representative being a little less excited about the prospects of explaining why the Franken count is better than being shown... probably in part due to some boredom of re-explaining the same thing again and again, but mostly because you don't get the sense that they are not as confident as they were after day two.
The reason... and my second point... is that once you got the St Louis county precincts out of the way (as well as whatever happened on day one in Ramsey) there seems to be little movement.
After day two... 46% of the vote in, they had cut into the lead by at least 116 ballots by their count. But since then, there has been another 30% plus counted and they have gained at best 15 votes in the counts and possibly less.
With only 21% of the state left to count... and by their own estimates a fairly close split (51-49) for Franken in the final precincts... it seems they need another St Louis County or Ramsey county sort of move to get within striking distance.
Now... last point I will make about this. If the Franken camp was confident that they would prevail in the recount, then there would be no reason for them to open up the can of worms that would be the rejected absentee ballots. They are looking at these rejected absentee ballots not out of any knowledge that they would tend to favor Franken, but rather they look at them in spite of the reality that they "probably" favor Coleman.
I think instant runoff is a version of what we call single transferable vote,
In essence and with variations, yes. Incidentally, there's been some push for it here in Minnesota, because of our historical tendency to have a robust third party (yeah, for the US, a third party that consistently gets 5% or more of the vote is "robust"-- and unusual). This senate election has gotten it more publicity as an alternative.
I think we're talking about the same thing. Minneapolis aims to implement IRV for its 2009 municipal elections, and it is apparently in place elsewhere, but as far as I know it is not implemented anywhere in the US for any federal office.
thanks Katharriet.
I would imagine that with a very strong 2 party system, those 2 strong parties wouldn't have much interest in opening up politics to other groupings, which is what would happen if any form of PR was widely introduced. I know vested interests are what is holding back progress here.
by the way - what you call 'plurality', we call 'first past the post' - but you probably knew that.
Thanks for indulging these off topic comments. It is hard to find something new to say about Franken/Coleman figures because we just DON'T KNOW.
We are all finding it hard to wait for the answer - imagine how Franken and Coleman are feeling.
I don't understand Nate to be advocating for either side, but merely analyzing the counting process and trying to get some clarity out of the fog of frivolous challenges.
I suggest that the number of type 2, 3, and 4 challenges is very small. Take the day 1 results, and extrapolate them to 100% of the vote. That approximates the results of the actual count. Then add the number of Coleman's type 1 challenges to Franken's vote total and the number of Franken's type 1 challenges to Coleman's vote total. I predict that to be the final vote number.
Anybody have access to the number of type 1 challenges from each camp?
New numbers have been posted: now were at 1,600 Coleman challenges vs. 1,557 from Franken.
Using Nate's estimate of the number of challenges by type (let's say for Coleman 82%, 5%, 7%, 6% and for Franken 73%, 10%, 13%, 4% respectively) and assuming that type 1 challenges are accepted only 2% of the time, type 2 are 80%, and types 3 and 4 are accepted 10% or the time, we now have
Gain for Coleman: 1,245 votes
Gain for Franken: 1,517 votes
Net gain for Franken from recount: 272 votes.
Since Coleman's official lead is now 217 votes, that means that Franken is actually leading by 272-217=55 votes if the challenges end up being resolved according to these estimates.
(see detailed explanation in the comment above, at 2:40 pm)
If anyone has suggestions concerning the probabilities of each type, it might be interesting to discuss it. (Do you think types 3 and 4 have more than 10% chance to be accepted? less? any other modification?)
Franken has just conceded the race. See the post on the Trib online.
It seems odd that he would resign before the challenge. Maybe he knows that the challenges are bullshit. Oh well, even libs don't want him in office.
thanks for the lie jack be liar.
franken has not conceded anything
@Pat & Flo
My only question would be the percentages of each type that you assigned. You put numbers in place of Nate's words, and I think you may be overdoing it.
Example: For a Type 2 vote Nate says "Probably about 5-10% of all challenges. May be slightly more common from the Franken campaign, if Democrats tend to be responsible for a higher fraction of sketchy ballots.". You take this word "slightly more" to be double or a 100% increase. I would read slightly more to be a few percent difference, or at most say a 20% difference. Therefore if Coleman has 5% Type 2 challenges then Franken would have 6%.
These unknowns will case your prediction of 272 votes to have very large error bars. I would suggest you vary those percentages to get an idea of your error bars. I would guess they would be quite high.
-Dave C.
Here is the video link of Franken conceding the seat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPw1f5kZxus
Read it and weep.
Jack-be-Numbskull
begs the questions but...
WV - 'scror in u'
Here's a first-person account of the challenges that seems to corroborate Nate's intuition:
http://blog.aclu.org/2008/11/25/challenges-counting-duplicates-and-other-minnesota-recount-complaints/
Ad CH Truth: Agreed. Regarding the absentees, when Franken believed on Day 2 that he was down by 700-odd, of course he had to pull every straw. Having raised that issue, he can't go back even if he wanted to.
Ad Dave C. and Pat & Flo, and agreeing with Michael BW: Franken's spokesman was specific that the estimate of 84-behind "is based on how election judges in the counties have ruled so far on challenged ballots." I.e. it is the gap resulting if Manskey's dictum that his board will win all challenges comes true. The upshot is exactly that yours and all projections, even Nate's, should be revised to reflect this number. Indeed, helping this site may even have been a secondary motive for being so specific, and I see no reason for any spin here (indeed, has the Coleman camp contradicted it?---I see no sign).
The Franken camp may believe that a fair portion of what Nate classifies as F-2 (LX) and F-3 (XX) challenges may go their way: if they total 10-15% of Franken's 1500 challenges, and average 20% success rate, that's 30-45 more votes. Maybe a net of 20 over Coleman's similar cases. That could make this project to be a cliffhanger. Since they have this in reserve, and didn't show their whole hand, again I see no reason to doubt the "84". Hence IMHO we should all plug it in, and re-estimate the %s of types of challenges accordingly. I think doing so will peg Nate's previous estimate of 87% of Coleman's challenges being in categories 1 & 4 (vote deducted from Franken) as being too high, which I felt at the time.
The other thing that revises the models is this business of "hundreds of `missing' votes". I guess we can get an exact count from the SoS data (comma-separated values file importable into Excel etc.), but even in some whole-county data one can infer this is going on, such as I noted in Washington county.
Finally, how homogeneous is the 44% sample we have from Minneapolis? I assume that recounting precincts one-at-a-time will make it reflect times of day equally, but how about geography, mindful that incidents like this (saw on theUptake.org) may have caused some stressful balloting situations whose effects haven't been seen yet.
WV "sublogi": a frequent commenter who doesn't have eir own blog :-).
@KWRegan-
I agree that the latest Franken numbers, which seem honest, are the best base to extrapolate from, because only a small extrapolation is needed. But be sure to set aside the 'Eagle' machines before doing the extrapolation.
It turns out that I don't need to revise my estimates based on the hand-count review, because as I posted earlier they are in "unreasonably good agreement" with the data released by Franken.
@KWRegan,
I was a Franken observer during the Washington County recount, and as such I would greatly appreciate any detail/insight you might have in regards to your statement above.
On my watch we "discovered" 27 ballots missing in two of Woodbury's precincts. Day before that in Stillwater, afair, 8 ballots were missing.
Do you have more on that story?
Please share.
wv - unces: _ittoheads.
unces see a conspiracy behind Franken closing the gap.
"Mrs B said "...Bob X, whom I have no reason to doubt, says there is no legal right for Barkley to have his vote properly recorded.
IS THAT REALLY TRUE?
You mean in a properly run election in the US only SOME of the candidates get to have their votes counted properly?"
Well, technically, NONE of the candidates has a right to get the number figured out precisely. The law is interested in one question and one question only: which candidate won. There is no legal interest in knowing the order or margins by which the trailing candidates failed to win. It is all reduced to the binary, "1" (you get the office) or "0" (you don't).
In reply to MNLatteLiberal:
What I originally meant was that in the STrib's county table, Washington showed more total votes lost (-122 now) than total challenges (110). Of course the dropoff could come from machine pickups of non-legal votes, but (a) when you factor in that not all challenges deduct votes, you get about 40 such (with NO new votes) which strikes me as high, and (b) I subsequently read about assertions of actual "missing votes" in that county.
Now when I go to the by-precinct data, I should compare the sum of columns G,H,I (recounted totals for Coleman, Franken, and Other) with column M for "total vote(r)s in precinct", right? Over the Washington rows 2852--2941, I get a net minus of about 80. Now to my shock when I do that for all precincts, I see a difference over 3400! Am I doing something wrong, or misinterpreting what these columns mean? Replying quickly---KWR
Oh duh, never mind shock about the global 3400---that probably reflects the challenges, to a degree that depends on how many are "Types 1 & 4". But that still leaves several hundreds left over, and maybe that's what the "missing ballots" assertion is talking about?
Could someone please explain why signing a ballot invalidates it? I don't quite understand the reasoning for why it should disqualify a person from voting if they leave a distinguishing mark like a signature. Thanks.
@ Dave C.:
For type 3, I agree that the 13% I assigned for Franken are more than "slightly larger" than the 7% I put for Coleman. This can be adjusted, for sure. Which breakdown would you suggest? (note that Coleman's and Franken's totals should add up to 100% so there isn't that much margin to play with).
Also, note that the type 3 challenges only resulted to a handful of ballots, so this is not the most crucial parameter.
But it's definitely a good idea to evaluate the error bars: I will play with that tomorrow. In the meantime, I'm open to any adjustment of the parameters: for the challenge type breakdown, what about
Coleman: 81%, 5%, 8%, 6%
Franken: 74%, 10%, 12%, 4%
(it's not easy to make the type 3 challenges only slightly different from one another while keeping the type 1 challenges not too similar)
What about the chances that each challenge type is accepted? (I used so far 2%, 80%, 10%, 10% respectively).
That said, using the current numbers, the latest update is (with now nc=1,853 Coleman challenges and nf=1,773 Franken challenges):
Each candidates gains that number of ballots from each challenge type:
.. Coleman ... Franken
1-.. 1268 .... 1489
2-.... 74 ..... 142
3-.... 13 ..... 23
4-.... 64 .... 100
--------------------
Total 1419... 1754
Net gain for Franken from recount: 335 ballots!!
With the official Coleman lead at 231, this suggests that Franken may in fact be ahead by over a hundred votes if the challenges are resolved like that.
[details in previous comment, 2.40pm, above]
Tejas--
Signing a ballot invalidates it because the vote is no longer secret: other people can identify which ballot is yours. If they can identify your ballot, they can punish or reward you for voting a certain way.
Making identifying marks on a ballot illegal is meant to discourage both pressure on a voter and bribery of a voter for a certain vote.
Note that no one really cares if you can identify the ballot yourself, only if others can.
Thanks to those who responded to my comment above about Barkley's non-representation at the recount.
The gist of some of the responses (as I interpret them) is that, of course, a candidate with no possibility of winning would not have a right to be present.
As a student of comparative elections, what strikes me is how undemocratic that is. The 'party' in any election dispute should be the voters, not (some of the) candidates.
In this race, a majority of voters will have voted for someone other than the eventually declared winner, and a substantial minority will have voted for a candidate other than the two whose vote totals are currently too close to call.
The best way to represent "the voters" is not to have only agents of the top two present. This point would hardly seem odd to almost anyone from outside the US.
(Thanks to Alan, a frequent commenter at my place, for having often pushed so forcefully the point I am echoing here.)
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