11.13.2008

Georgia Runoff Will Be Tough on Pollsters

SurveyUSA has a new poll out about the impending runoff in Georgia between Saxby Chambliss and Jim Martin. For some reason, they didn't poll the trial heat question (e.g. "who are you going to vote for?"), but there are a number of other items of interest.

In particular, 87 percent of registered Georgia voters claim that they are going to participate in the runoff on December 2nd -- this in a state where only 67 percent of registered voters turned out for the general election last Tuesday! People may have the best intentions, certainly, and there is probably some response bias in the sort of person who might answer a series of a pollster's questions about the runoff election. Nevertheless, a lot of these people are pretty much ... lying. They're not going to show up. In 1992, when the late Paul Coverdell won his senate seat against Wyche Fowler in a runoff, participation declined from 2,251,587 Georgians in the first go-around to 1,253,991 in the runoff, roughly a 50 percent drop.

The tricky thing for pollsters will be in figuring out just which of these people are lying about their intent to participate and which of them aren't. Pollsters like to root their models in recent precedent, but things like runoffs and special elections happen so rarely that there's just not very much to key oneself off of. The point is ... if the polls going into December 2nd say that Saxby Chambliss is going to win the runoff by 7 points, you shouldn't be a but surprised if Jim Martin actually wins instead. And you also shouldn't be surprised if Chambliss wins by 20. This will be a return to the high margins of uncertainty that we saw in the primaries.

77 comments

Tybalt said...

This would place a vastly inflated premium on GOTV, which the Martin team, using Obama's resources, should be able to execute.

Tybalt said...

Also:

Nate, do you think that this is a situation where an aggregator like yourself is at a disadvantage to a really good pollster? A good pollster can nail down a model that will give it a large inherent advantage over other pollsters. But you're stuck with using data from everyone, including those who don't really have a model to speak of.

Pot Kettle Black said...

Agree with tybalt, but suspect that Republican GOTV isn't terrible in Georgia, since McCain carried the state. The weird thing is McCain 52% Saxby Chambliss 49.8%. McCain didn't help the downticket, despite winning the state.

Any rate, I'd call it a toss up, lean Chambliss.

Kathy said...

Why in the world wouldn't Survey USA ask which candidate the respondents were voting for?

Trenchman003 said...

The turnout models in this race also have to account for another factor--the now not so unlikely possibility that this race could in fact be for a super-majority since it seems pretty obvious that Begich is going to defeat Stevens and Franken has just as good a chance as not to overcome his 203 vote deficit to Coleman. Sure, the average voter probably doesn't think in these terms, but there are plenty of political junkies on both sides for whom this will be a motivating factor--I'd be interested in Nate's opinion as to which side this circumstance favors.
Oh, and just because I've never been this high before: FIFTH!! (Sorry, just had too...)

The Law Talking Guy said...

It's hard to believe that the runoff will have greater turnout than the general. With lower turnout and no Obama on the ticket, it is hard to imagine anything but a Chambliss win by 5-10points.

Maroon said...

Sorry to be off topic, but: Are we going to get an answer to the Ballot design quiz? Still curious, if there *is* indeed an answer, that is.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Would they have early voting or would this be a one day vote?

If it is a one day vote there is no way the Dem will win. There may be limited polling stations in lower income neighborhoods and the lines would stretch all the way to North Carolina.

Another thing. I see the RNC is out in full force already. I wonder if the DNC is going to use the rope-a-dope technique and let these guys blow their wad early and go on the attack then do some effective attacks from the defensive position.

It seems they've started with the internet ad pointing out how McCain spoke out against Chambliss's attacks in his last run for Senate and how the hypocrite is now campaigning for him.

I think it's effective how Democrats seem to be making light of sleazy politics in ads and cheapening their opponents attacks and rendering them useless. Then, when nobody is looking, they unleash without having to worry about retribution because it's the Republican who is the sleazy campaigner now...brilliant.

Badgerhair said...

I'm not all that surprised that 87% of the respondents said they would be voting in the runoff. 98% of them claimed to have voted last week.

If we can conclude anything from this, it's that ~11% of people who voted in the general election won't vote in the run-off.

Sam said...

Nate- thought you might be interested that you've turned up in a New Scientist article about election forecasting..

Alex C said...

Nate, I have a question about the GA senate election results. In your discourse on Franken's chances, you basically assumed that any ballot with a vote for president but senate was abnormal. But Georgia's results had the number of such ballots in the six figures? What do you make of that?

Eric said...

The Georgia race seems very difficult to call, but if I was betting, I'd bet on Chambliss. The biggest reason is I don't expect the AA vote to be nearly as high as a % this time around.

The alaska seat seems likely in the bag for Begich. Good news.

The confusing one to me is the Minnesota race. Nate's final analysis says what? There are likely a few thousand mistakes that can be read properly the second time around. So the cahnce of 206 votes flipping is about 60-70%, but they could flip either way. So Franken has about a 30-35% of winning in a recount. Then, i assume Coleman would ask for a third recount or get the courts involved. I'm not nearly as optimistic about this one. Has there ever been a recount of a race as important where the outcome was reversed? And how come the margin keeps closing? Are there still more ballots that need to be counted before the recpunt?

Walter Mondale said...

I still think we can't trust these Georgia election results. 1.9m votes in the early voting and the total turns out to be roughly 3.9m votes, not even doubling the early votes.?!

A good theory about what happened down there, anyone? It sure wasn't about democrat complacency...

Richard said...

Maroon: Google is your friend.

WV: phoom - the sound of Ted Stevens' Senate hopes going up in smoke.

mfritzdengel said...

Are you guys doing some kind of final result check where you compare your model (and other models) state by state with the outcome of the election in some kind of compact table or graph. I mean the map is giving me a good view how "right" you were with the outcome but I would be interested in differences of outcome compared with margin of error (and of yourse possible explanations if you were totally wrong :-)

Greetings from a close follower from germany!

Michael

Badgerhair said...

I see that on the MN ballot paper Richard posted the link to, the Dem candidates are labelled "Democratic-Farmer-Labour". I also saw that on an Alaska ballot, it was "Alaska Democrats".

Do the Dems have different names in every state?

John Nail said...

Remember we had a "Liberal" candidate that got 7% in the election last week so the predictions will be hard.

We now have over 100 Obama staff here from all over the country, volunteers coming in from out of state and all our volunteer teams intact.

Veterans groups are fired up to get Chambliss for what he did to Max Cleland and they are poring resources in as well.

McCain is here today in Cobb Country for a rally (<2000) and all the Repub. hitters are supposedly coming incl. Mooselini possibly. Stay tuned it will be interesting but the Obama/Martin turnout effort will surpass the Repubs. and it will come down to getting all the AA voters fired up to help Barack get to 60, not about Martin himself.

soozzie said...

Having lived for many years in a community that routinely had runoffs for local office, it is our experience that they are won or lost in the 5 days after the general election. That's the time that the candidates get their postcards in the mail to constituents for requesting absentee/mail ballots for the runoff. In the afterglow of the election, with uncertainty in the outcome, the voter gets his postcard, sends it in, and he received his ballots later. He is far more likely to vote with the ballot in his hand than if it requires a trip to the polling place. we would go so far as to color code the postcards, so a glance at the pile in the city clerk's office would tell us what parts of the city were responding, and whether they were ours or theirs.

Runoffs are an art form unto themselves; most candidates/campaigns make the mistake of waiting to find out the final tally, etc., before they figure out how to position themselves to win the runoff. We found it better to have our runoff postcards ordered and a draft at the printer on election night awaiting only the final details so we would have them in the mail in a day or two. Granted these were local elections, but the scale shouldn't make a difference.

Anthony said...

The SurveyUSA poll results show the people polled voted +9 for Chambliss, but the margin is about +2.9. What gives? Obviously there is a Republican lean of 6 in all the results.

Carlo Graziani said...

One set of obvious "Likely Voter" data cuts that I would expect pollsters to apply is (a) "Did you vote for a presidential candidate on November 4" and (b) "Did you vote for a senate candidate on November 4".

Anyone who doesn't answer "yes" to (a) or (b) isn't likely to vote in the runoff, and should be cut.

Anyone who answered "yes" to (a) but "no" to (b) should probably have responses weighted down somehow.

Anyone who answered "no" to (a) and "yes" to (b) went to the polls specifically to vote for a Senator, and is a very likely voter in a Senate runoff.

Anyone who answered "yes" to both questions is a candidate for likely voterhood, and is to included, excluded, or weighted depending on further questioning.

[Note: I don't actually know what I'm talking about -- the above just strikes me as superficially plausible]

guyinthehat said...

The Libertarian Dean Barkley vote will most definitely break towards Chambliss. Chambliss is one of the most fiscally conservative Senators in the country. Will the Libertarians show up? Hard to tell. There is a lot of variables in the runoff. Are Republicans too demoralized to show up? Will the Obama ground game help him in the run off? I don't know what will happen, but as a Georgian, I have to guess its going to Chambliss.

clifton said...

Anthony: It's even stranger than what you note. The poll shows people voted +12 for Chamblis!

So you'd think a Republican lean of +9 but then the poll has McCain by 11 when it was actually about 5.2. So a 6 point Republican lean.

So this is a very strange group of voters indeed, or people are lying about who they voted for (perhaps people regret they didn't vote for Obama?).

syr93 said...

As a Georgian, I will make a few notes. The final turnout figure of 3.92 million votes is believable, since there were only 3.3 million votes in 2004, and that was a large increase from 2000. Local democrats running for statwide office usually do a few percent better than 'librul' outsiders. And....it is very unlikely that Martin will win :(
Two main reasons---it is unlikely that African-American turnout will be as high as in the general election for Obama. And history. The 1992 election between Wyche Fowler (D), the incumbent, and Paul Coverdell went to a runoff, and then in a vote against Clinton and 'librul' Washington the Republicans turned out and Democrats did not so much. Fowler was defeated. I expect the same sort of event to happen now, which is just too bad.

Josh Putnam said...

Here is an examination of the county-level results in the November 4 race and where each candidate may be targeting ahead of the December 2 runoff.

Ballot roll-off is another important consideration in this race. Who were the Georgians that voted for McCain or Obama but not in the Senate race and can they be mobilized for the runoff.

Sarah S. Derer said...

I have never understood what it is that election boards know on the second count that they didn't know on the first. Why are they more accurate upon a recount? If the techniques employed upon recount are somehow better, why not use them the first time around? Someone, please give me a definitive answer on this.

clifton said...

Nate Silver's reading of the poll is wrong I think. It doesn't say 87% of registered voters will vote in the run off.

It says that 87% of those who voted in the Nov 4 election will vote in the run-off.

That seems plausible to me. A bit high maybe, but not very much off.

markedman said...

anyone notice that McCain's lead in Missouri has shurnk about a thousand votes recently? Nobody talks about it though...

:\

Wayward Son said...

I have never understood what it is that election boards know on the second count that they didn't know on the first.

If you're talking about Georgia.. it's not a recount, it's a brand new election with only the top two vote getters.

If you mean Alaska, it's not a recount, it's counting late-arriving and absentee ballots that have never been in the totals up to this point.

For the one that will be a recount (Minnesota), the vast majority of precincts used optical scan voting machines. A marked ballot was fed into the machine, it read the votes, and tabulated the results. If a ballot could not be determined to have a single valid vote for the Senate race, then no vote was recorded.

This could be intentional (someone didn't want to vote for anyone in that race) and the recount will also skip the ballot. It could be a situation where the voter marked two options for the race, in which case the recount will rule the ballot invalid. But for those situations where the machine malfunction, the voter marked a selection but not in the correct format, or the voter in some fashion indicated who they intended to vote for.. those votes would be added to the total, and change the original outcome.

wv: wolotion (My wife wanted to buy some of that stuff.. hmm)

eve said...

Lying? That's an assumption. What is the evidence that these people are lying?

That they intend to vote and then don't vote will not be a surprise. But we don't know that they do not intend to vote and are lying.


Clifton, I cannot find anything that says the respondents were those who voted in the election. When I looked at the SurveyUSA site, the data reflects that some of the respondents did not vote in the election.

sdf said...

eve, I think Clifton is right: in the response to Question 1, only 2% of the respondents said that they did not vote in the presidential election. 98% claim to have voted on November 4th. So the 87% who say they plan to vote in the runoff is of people who (with a very small exception) voted last Tuesday.

Word Verification "ingst" -- the anxiety one feels when a pen bursts in one's pocket.

tkk13above said...

Hi Sarah,

Recounts are usually more accurate because they are hand recounts (where possible). So you can gauge voter intent, as opposed to having a machine do it. If there person circled the candidate instead of filling in the bubble, or with punch cards if there was a hanging chad, then you know to count it. A machine would miss these votes.

And that's your answer as to why they don't do it that way in the first place. Machine/voter error is VERY low, and we can assume it stays low from one election to the next. And machines are much faster than humans. So if we have the machines count the first time around and the margin is comfortably big (like at least 1% or so), then there's no point in going into the manual recount. But if it's close you want to make sure there wasn't a mistake in counting. Because machines are faster, it is better to make them count before you make humans count (also way less expensive).

Edwin G. said...

Georgia Advance Voting (fancy name for in-person Absentee) runs Nov. 17-21. Early Voting (multiple polling places) runs Nov. 24-26 (three days b/c of Thanksgiving).

I'm discouraged by the drop-off in runoff voting predicted by historical trends, but can't give up without a fight...

Ed said...

@Maroon: Hear, hear! I'd also like to know the answer to the quiz.

@Richard: What search terms did you use? Your link merely sends me to a sample ballot. How can I be certain that this ballot design is the most likely to produce an undervote?

Howard said...

It's one thing to say you're intending to vote in the runoff election and then not. Lying? Perhaps not if the intent is there. But it's another thing to say you voted in the Nov. 4 election when you didn't. Now THERE'S a liar!

Just curious what the percentage of folks who SAY they voted on Nov. 4th is compared to the 67% that ACTUALLY did...

juliephx said...

Maricopa County - Arizona (Phoenix metropolitan)uses ballots where you fill in an arrow. When the ballots are fed into the machine, if there is an undervote or overvote, the machine kicks back the ballot with a piece of paper explaining the error. The voter then has the choice to complete a new ballot or turn in the under/over-voted ballot. (The voter is not given the option of changing the original ballot for some reason.)

Sometimes an overvote is caused if a voter accidentally rests the pen on a spot and makes a mark. You get up to 3 chances to correctly mark your ballot.

It seems like a good system that greatly reduces the possibility of accidental over or under voting.

PA John said...

guyinthehat said...
The Libertarian Dean Barkley vote will most definitely break towards Chambliss. Chambliss is one of the most fiscally conservative Senators in the country. Will the Libertarians show up? Hard to tell. There is a lot of variables in the runoff. Are Republicans too demoralized to show up? Will the Obama ground game help him in the run off? I don't know what will happen, but as a Georgian, I have to guess its going to Chambliss.



Ummmmmm.... Dean Barkley is from Minnesota, I think you meant Allen Buckley.

Another Mike said...

For Martin to win, blacks will need to turn out at least close to their turn out in the general election. And, I suspect, the only way that happens is for Obama to campaign for Martin. He doesn't need to hold numerous campaign rallies, but he can and should lend organization support, email his Georgia supporters, cut a radio and TV ad targeted at black voters, make a fundraising appeal, and hold at least one campaign rally. If he's involved, then Martin has a chance. If not, I don't see how Martin can win.

eve said...

The data says 2% did not vote for president and 4% did not vote for senator. So we know that the sampling was not set up to only include those who did vote.


Since we know only 67% of registered voters voted in the general election and the answers indicate that 98% of the sample says they voted, then the answers in this sample might indicate a we have a group that is more likely to vote than the RV population as a whole or ...

a group with many not telling the truth.

CA Hawkeye said...

people would lie to a pollster. I'm schocked...schocked I say.

I agree with Sedi, enthusiasm should be a component for better prediction. Also voting history.

So Nate, sounds like this will be your test. What tweaks will you make?

SHERWICK said...

" juliephx said...
It seems like a good system that greatly reduces the possibility of accidental over or under voting."

Juliephx, I think you're missing the point. What we're looking to implement is the most complex and prone to error system possible.
Regards,
The GOP.

juliephx said...

@ Sherwick--except in a red state like AZ...

Another reference to Nate:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/13/minnesota-governor-tim-pa_n_143564.html

Sarah S. Derer said...

Thank you, tkk13above. You answered my question.

Dmitry said...

DON'T KNOW HOW TO SPELL SHOCKED, LIBERAL IDIOT CA HAWKEYE?

goatdan said...

On the topic of 60 Senators -- I normally am one to state that the country runs the best when you have a President and a Congress that are of opposite parties, since it requires both of them working together to get stuff done. I prefer the president to be a democrat, since the appointees to the Supreme Court tend to deal with the social aspects, which I'm definitely more liberal about.

This election cycle though, I'm really, *really* hoping that the Dems can pick up these last few seats. Not just because I really like Franken, but because Bush did so much stuff in regards to policy that I feel that he overstepped his bounds, and an overwhelming majority of Senators would go a LONG way to being able to repeal a lot of the worst stuff that Bush did.

I hope that eventually, we go back to having the Senate split, but for two or even four years, I would be very happy if they worked to reel back in Presidential powers that were suddenly assigned, and close a lot of the loopholes that Bush (well, Cheney) decided that he could walk through whenever he wanted. I don't think that a split Senate would take away those powers.

mclever said...

Sarah S. Derer said...
I have never understood what it is that election boards know on the second count that they didn't know on the first. Why are they more accurate upon a recount? If the techniques employed upon recount are somehow better, why not use them the first time around? Someone, please give me a definitive answer on this.


There isn't a *definitive* answer, because it varies significantly from district to district, state to state, depending on the types of voting and tabulation methods used.

The basic gist is the first count is usually some sort of automatic method (scantron, inkavote, punchcard readers, etc.) where a machine counts the votes. Assuming ballots are marked correctly, this is as accurate as any other counting method, though there are a variety of valid reasons why a vote might get missed in the initial count. Recounts can include a second scan and/or a manual recount where each ballot is visually inspected by election officials. Sometimes the recount discovers a tabulation error, even using the identical method on the recount. For example, say Candidate A got 1532 votes, but on the tabulation sheet it looked like 532 because the "1" was not written clearly. Therefore, the recount might discover these 1000 missing votes.

The reasons why hand counts aren't the first count in most districts include:
1. It's very time consuming, especially with long ballots that may have 30 or more different voter decisions. We can get a preliminary count within 24 hrs using the automated counting mechanisms, but it might take weeks to hand-count the same ballots for all of the items.
2. It's very expensive. Using a machine to count costs about $100,000 to count a million ballots on all 30 election items. To hand-count the votes, costs about a dollar per vote per item. So, if there are 30 items on the ballot, and you hand-count everything, it could cost $30,000,000 to hand count all of the ballots, compared to $100,000 to machine scan them all. That's why they only want to hand-count the races that are extremely close, potentially saving the state millions of dollars.

So, barring significant malfunction, the error rate on the machine counts is less than 1%, so it's usually sufficient to determine the outcome. Only when the race is extremely close does it require the time-consuming and cost-prohibitive method of hand-counting each ballot individually.

I hope that is "definitive" enough for you!

-M

Troy said...

Dmitry

Maybe he was channeling Foghorn Leghorn. But maybe not.

dorkenergy said...

Nate -- care to offer a definition for "lying"?

bcf said...

The question I think is important is not whether Martin will win or not, but whether the race is "winnable."

It is 100% winnable. Georgia's economy sucks as bad as everywhere. Obama did better than white southerners expected, and, Obama is making good press in his presidential preparations.

And More John McCain please. McCain's a hypocrite and a liar, not only for talking down Chambliss but also talking down his running mate, after 2 months of arrogantly insisting she was qualified.

The DNC needs to show its cock for Martin and announce that a vote for Martin is a vote for Obama and change. And I'd like to see the Obama national organization make like Sherman and invade Georgia.

Whether Georgia is won will depend solely upon Democratic will and nothing to do with whether pollsters can accurately predict turnout.

juliephx said...

markedman said...
anyone notice that McCain's lead in Missouri has shurnk about a thousand votes recently? Nobody talks about it though...


Is the difference still about 5,000 votes? When will they finally call this?

Andy JS said...

Turnout was actually quite disappointing on November 4th, given that 2 million people took part in early voting. I assume there aren't many more votes to be counted in Georgia. So maybe the turnout won't fall that much for the run-off.

Mrs B said...

if this was a run-off in normal circumstances, Shambles would probably win by a country mile. But it isn't.
1 it's the economy, stupid
2 Obama won - I think we were calling him "transformational" a few threads ago, changes the whole context
3 Dems have the best ground operation they have had for some time
4 Shambles has history with which he can be embarrassed, enthusing people to vote against him


Given all that, I would say turn-out could surprise people.

But of course, everyone in GA could be suffering from election fatigue.

Most likely reason for so high a proportion saying they voted when they couldn't have if the pollster has any idea how to do sampling is a version of 'shy Tory' - nobody wants to admit they didn't do their civic duty in such a key election.

Wayward Son said...

Well, the part about why they don't hand count everything is pretty obvious when you note that Minnesota doesn't expect their recount to be done before December.

Most of the time the machine+unintentional error rate is lower than the margin of victory, so there's no sense in being 'perfect'. A fast imperfect count is infinitely better than a slow accurate one, since the result isn't changed.

It will be interesting to see whether that remains true if more states abandon the winner-take-all electoral method.

mikelow1885 said...

R2K poll:

Chambliss 49
Martin 47

Unfavorables up slightly for both. Obama is reportedly sending his Ohio field staff into Georgia.

thorn969 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
DaWolf said...

@mclever

2. It's very expensive. Using a machine to count costs about $100,000 to count a million ballots on all 30 election items. To hand-count the votes, costs about a dollar per vote per item. So, if there are 30 items on the ballot, and you hand-count everything, it could cost $30,000,000 to hand count all of the ballots, compared to $100,000 to machine scan them all. That's why they only want to hand-count the races that are extremely close, potentially saving the state millions of dollars.

I live in the uk. It doesn't cost anywhere near that much.

In fact, just think about it - it typically takes about 10 seconds (that's a rough estimate based on having a ballot with a lot of info to make it more confusing - in the uk its much faster, maybe 3 seconds a ballot) to hand count a ballot per item. So unless the hand counters are being paid $360 an hour, it won't cost a dollar an item. A more reasonable price is a factor of 10 smaller than your estimate, and possible as low as a fator of 30 smaller.

Of course, in the uk it's much simpler as it's a rare election where you have to vote for more than one or two people. Our elections simply don't cost much compared to the US model with so many things on the ballot and different ballots in different states.

It's also IMO much harder to rig a uk general election but that's a different matter....

walt526 said...

For 2009, it would be really cool if Nate could put together a 538 Regression function for congressional incumbents (maybe do House and Senate separately). This would be a tremendous undertaking, but very useful in monitoring congressional voting trends.

The 538 Regression for GA was 50.6/47.4 for the GOP, which is probably a decent proxy for political leanings. As an earlier poster said, its a winnable election for Martin, but it's going to be an uphill battle.

It seems to me that a big part of runoff elections is that there aren't very many undecideds. That would seem to disadvantage the challenger since undecideds tend to break against the incumbent all other things being equal.

According to Rasmussen 10-31-08, here are the favorable/unfavorable for Chambliss:
-Very Favorable: 32%
-Somewhat Favorable: 26%
-Somewhat Unfavorable: 17%
-Very Unfavorable: 23%
-Unsure: 1%

And for Martin:
-Very Favorable: 22%
-Somewhat Favorable: 26%
-Somewhat Unfavorable: 16%
-Very Unfavorable: 31%
-Unsure: 5%

N=500, M/E +/- 4.5

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_senate_elections/georgia/election_2008_georgia_senate


What's interesting is that despite a aggregate 58% approval rating (versus Martin's 48%), Chambliss failed to get 50% of the vote. Conversely, Chambliss has a 40% unapproval rating to Martin's 47%.

What remains missing is the voters' relative enthusiasm for the third party candidate--my gut tells me that a lot of those who voted for a third-party last Tuesday stay home next month.

mikelow1885 said...

correction: R2K poll actually 49-46 Chambliss. IMO, this is a tough race for Martin because the AA turnout will be less than November 4. Also, on the economy, Martin (in a pre 11/4 poll) only had a 2% edge on the economy.

papadablogger said...

My understanding of Georgia election law is that one may vote in a Runnoff Election ONLY if one voted in the General Election that caused the runoff. Thus, the universe of possible voters on Decembbr 2nd is already established and it remains only to be seen who will actually turn out a SECOND time.

mclever said...
This post has been removed by the author.
mclever said...

dawolf,

In fact, just think about it - it typically takes about 10 seconds (that's a rough estimate based on having a ballot with a lot of info to make it more confusing - in the uk its much faster, maybe 3 seconds a ballot) to hand count a ballot per item. So unless the hand counters are being paid $360 an hour, it won't cost a dollar an item. A more reasonable price is a factor of 10 smaller than your estimate, and possible as low as a fator of 30 smaller.

I just double-checked, and this site gives an estimate of $1.2 million to hand count 2 million votes in 2004 for a single race, so I may be off by a factor of 2 at most.

http://www.aaas.org/spp/sfrl/projects/evoting/gilbert.shtml

When hand-counting ballots, it's not just one person doing the counting. There are 4 people at a minimum (two counters, and two or more observers) at each recount location or precinct. Plus, they usually have to rent the space to host the recount(s), which costs additional money above and beyond just paying the salaries. Plus, they often have to pay extra security to guard the ballots during the process. Plus a dozen other things that I'm not thinking of at the moment...

Thaddeus said...

Nate, isn't it possible that the voter rolls are full of people who have died or moved away, largely accounting for the discrepancy between 87% of those polled intending to vote and 67% of those registered voting? Every time I go to vote, I see Uma Thurman's name on the electoral register next to mine... but she hasn't lived in my precinct for years!

Jack Rems said...

There is an amazing amount of valuable stuff here. Standout :soozle[10:14AM]

This would be a good time to link or repost ON THE ROAD's earlier coverage of GA (and to send them back!

The key will be early voting, but it is only a 3-day week due to Thanksgiving, and I would suggest the GOTV people offer to take voters to the poll and then give them a ride to the mall, grocery store, foodbank—if that’s legal. Funding should go to finding people who need their hand held and taking them to vote early. Election day many polling stations will be scary places, especially if your “papers are not in order.”

A lot of your posters remarks are fairly contemptuous of these voters. Who does that help? We’ve just had an amazing (if scientifically trivial) victory for optimism.

guyinthehat said...

@ PA John

You're right, I'm getting my run-offs/recounts mixed up. lol.

PeteKent said...

Chambliss will win in a walk. Now that Obama is not running the people he brought to the polls will not care.

Recall he said it was all about "us". We will soon see that without "him" "us" don't come to the polls.

Assmole elect said...

Good luck, pk and chambliss- they will both need it.

Richard said...

Ed: I do not believe that Nate has any scientific answer to the ballot question. Nate was pointing out the confusion that could be caused by different ballot designs (and the fact that Minnesota seems to have the most confusing of possible ballots, per the sample I linked). The only answer to the question is which is the real design used by Minnesota.

Kenyada said...

In Georgia, the Senate race could have been decided without a runoff had Jim Martin gotten on board with Barack Obama early in the race. So I place the blame directly at the feet of his campaign staff. African Americans turned out in record numbers for Georgia’s early voting, and at that time Martin’s commercials did not even mention Obama. I know many first time voters who did not even vote for the Senate seat at all because they saw it as a choice between two white guys with no connection to Obama. The Martin camp tried to distance itself from Obama in an effort to get the white racist vote… and it backfired. Now all of Martin’s new commercials for the runoff include Obama’s victory speech, but it’s too late. Many AA voters are seeing right through this attempt to gain AA support now, and we equate it to the white Southern strategies of the past.

Juris said...

It was established more than 40 years ago that self-reported voting rates are higher than actual ones.

Roughly have of that difference at the national level has to do with sample self-selection. It's important to keep in mind that participating in political polls is itself sort of like participating in politics. Those who are more intrested in politics, who care more about the election, are more likely to agree to participate in a survey when they are contacted by a pollster.

The remaining half of the "extra" self-reported voting turnout is a result of exaggeration: non voters who say they plan to vote. (In post-election surveys: actual nonvoters who say they actually voted.)

I wouldn't call these folks liars. They are typically just politically committed folks who feel that they ought to vote and who want to look good to the interviewers. They are the kinds of people who are in fact more likely to vote than those who say prior to an election that they don't intend to vote -- but some of those folks just aren't going to show up on election day.

(There's a large body of research on this question.)

Carrie said...

Conservative-minded Georgians will be motivated to make sure they prevent the 60th seat from going to the Left. The balance of power will be extremely important to many Republicans and moderates in the state, and they will turn out to make their voices heard. If there had to be a state to take a stand, Georgia is the one. Conservative values still matter here, and Georgians aren't embarrassed or intimidated to call themselves conservatives. They have insight into the bigger picture of what is likely to happen in America, and they have the faith, brains and determination to deliver a power check. Go to: GOPTrust.com

Clay said...

I have to say I think people are forgetting things while commenting. It is not just republican (conservative) vs. democrat (liberal). Some politicians are more conservative, liberal or moderate than others. Georgia is a really conservative place. Many democratic candidates for senate (and depending on which district... representatives) are moderately conservative, while the republican candidates tend to be really conservative.

For this reason Martin started off distancing himself from Obama. Earlier in the race Obama was not doing well in Georgia. He made gains near the end.

If elected Martin will be one of the more moderate/conservative democrats in the Senate. Chambliss will be one of the more conservative republicans in the senate.

Georgia is a conservative state and Martin has to appeal to conservative moderates to win. He needs to make claims or working with Obama, but he can't claim to be too much like Obama or he will lose. I would not underestimate both the conservative vote in Georgia.

plez... said...

i voted monday in DeKalb County, Georgia (predominantly Black county in metro Atlanta). Surprisingly, there were a large number of voters and reports were that our county had the highest number of voters on the first day of early voters (like during the general election).

the Obama campaign has geared back up and they are quite active in pushing voters to return to the polls for Jim Martin... i have a feeling that this is going to be a very close race (1 or 2 percentage points) since Martin did much better than Obama.

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艾葳酒店經紀公司提供專業的酒店經紀, 飯局小姐,領檯人員,領台,傳播妹,或者想要到台北酒店林森北路酒店,私人招待所,或者八大行業酒店PT,酒店公關,酒店兼職,想去酒店上班, 日式酒店,制服酒店,ktv酒店,禮服店,整天穿得水水漂漂的禮服酒店,鋼琴酒吧酒店領檯,酒店小姐,公關小姐??,還是想去制服店上班小姐,水水們如果想要擁有打工工作、晚上兼差工作兼差打工假日兼職兼職工作學生兼差兼差打工兼差日領工作晚上兼差工作酒店工作酒店上班酒店打工兼職兼差兼差工作酒店上班等,想了解酒店相關工作特種行業內容,想找打工假日兼職兼差打工、或晚班兼職想擁有快速賺錢又有保障的工作嗎???又可以現領請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!

艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司工作環境高雅時尚,無業績壓力,無脫秀無喝酒壓力,高層次會員制客源,工作輕鬆,可日領現領
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