11.25.2008

Georgia: Martin Stuck in Neutral?

Although Jim Martin performed well enough on Election Day to hold incumbent Saxby Chambliss under 50 percent, he still lost by the nontrivial margin of 3 percent. There are basically three ways -- taken alone or in combination -- that Martin could hope to make that deficit up.

The first way would be to win the lion's share of votes from the Libertarian candidate, Allen Buckley, who has been kicked off the island for the runoff. Exit polls suggested that a majority of Buckley voters also voted for Obama, although the sample size is probably too small to be meaningful. If this is a help to Martin, it's probably not by more than a couple of tenths of a point.

The second way would be to have a superior turnout on Runoff Day -- something which is always possible since runoffs elicit much lower turnout than elections held in conjunction with a Presidential race. So far, the evidence on that score is not so good for Martin. In contrast to the run-up to November 4th, when African-Americans overperformed in early voting, so far black voters make up only about 23 percent of Georgia's early vote in the runoff, slightly underperforming their share of the state's electorate.

The third way would be some sort of game-changing event. We're only talking about 3 points, so he wouldn't necessarily need some kind of Macaca moment -- but a little something to move the needle. Democrats thought they might have had a little something in the Imperial Sugar case, a February explosion at a Port Wentworth sugar refinery that killed 13 people -- Chambliss was subpoenaed in the ongoing trial against Imperial Sugar but has refused to testify. But, the case has yet to really go viral. And if a visit by Barack Obama was supposed to be a game-changer, so far the President-elect has revealed no plans to make a trip down South.

Basically, there is not yet any reason to conclude that the race will turn out all that much differently than it did on November 4th -- and not coincidentally, most polls show Saxby Chambliss holding onto about the same 3-point margin that he won by on Election Day.

Fortunately, we'll have Sean deploying to Georgia within the next 24 hours. Neither Sean nor I have any idea of what we expect to see or hear, but as with many races -- and particularly runoffs and special elections -- this one may look different from the ground up. From here in chilly Chicago, however, it looks like it's about time for Martin to get his butt in gear.

92 comments

Lawrence said...

I concur that Martin needs to get off his ass. I haven't been watching local news much, but I know I've seen at least two Chambliss ads on television over the past week, but nothing by Martin.

Juris said...

First!!??? Obviously not.

Maybe Martin thinks he's first.

Nawaid said...

The obama campagin has done something to help out martin in GA

you know how normal people were able to make phone calls to normal people in battleground states? well you can log into your mybarackobama acount and make phone calls now for Jim Martin.

If only the obama campagin would send out a e-mail to their impressive mailing list telling them to get on the phone for Jim Martin. we could see a swing in this election.

Joe said...

Martin is a horrible candidate. His ads have been infrequent and way off the mark - trying to slam Chambliss for his support of the stimulus package and the "flat tax" will get no traction in Georgia.

By contrast, pro-Chambliss ads have saturated the airwaves accusing Martin of everything from promoting drunk driving to child prostitution. One ad shows a particularly "doofy" looking Martin holding a "Women for Obama" sign. Not a great image ...

As ridiculous as the negative ads are, they will "stick" since Martin has not done a good job setting forth what he stands for, short of being the potential 60th Democrat in the Senate. For instance, a recent Martin campaign mailing had 5 photos of Obama and one of Martin on it. But the black vote in Georgia is not likely to turn out as much for Martin as for Obama and GA Republicans are motivated to avoid a super-majority in the Senate.

Luke said...

Martin seems to be getting killed in terms of the number of ads on television. The perception I have (rightly or wrongly) is that Chambliss ads outnumber Martin's by a 2-1 margin.

Both my wife and the wife of a friend of mine voted for Chambliss in the primary (didn't know anything about either one) and are now voting for Martin in the runoff.

Juris said...

I assume that almost all of Chambliss's ads are being produced and paid for by the Republican Senate Campaign Committee or RNC?

Who -- if anybody -- is funding Martin's ads?

Mule Rider said...

It's sad what fivethirtyeight has become....

Just a waste of time and a bunch of mindless drivel from nothing more than internet hoodlums driven by ideological bigotry.

nikip5555 said...

Hi Nate,

Remember that for early voting in the general election here in Georgia, the lines were MASSIVE -- but on election day, after the early morning and lunchtime rushes, there were virtually no lines at all at most polling places. Most voters here seem to be aware of that -- esp the African-American voters who waited 3, 5, or 7 hrs to vote early in the general -- and for the runoff they are planning to vote on election day. This is probably not a bad choice; the runoff ballot is very short and the total turnout will not be high, so long lines are unlikely.

Meanwhile, I have personally been calling and knocking, mostly among non-white voters, and the awareness and motivation is quite high. Virtually everyone who turned out for Obama says that they are planning to turn out for Martin as well. This is the key! If only the "frequent voter base" of each party turns out, Chambliss will win. But Martin has the opportunity to turn out less consistent voters who can completely turn the tide.

joel said...

Some PAC is finacing Chambliss they are bombarding everyone for money through newsmax a rightwing sight, saying Obama will have total control if Martin wins.
Anyway I used to live in Georgia and except for the Atlanta area it`s like Alabama, so unless there is a gigantic black turnout I don`t think Martin has any chance.
From what i`ve seen of him he seems as exciting as watching paint dry!
I would say Georgia is a southern state that may go democratic in a gigantic democratic landslide in 2012 but until the old crackers die out it will remain a gop state.

Gordon said...

What is really sad Mule is that there are people who have nothing positive to say and only codemn others who do. You're no mule...you're an ass

S said...

I early voted yesterday in one of the Southern counties that went blue on November 4th. The wait to electonically vote was 4 minutes longer than it was the day I voted early for the general.

When Martin visited here in October around 12 people showed up so I'd say advance teams expertise is not really a strong suit for them.

Perhaps Martin should challenge Chambliss to a Monday (Dec. 1 day before election) debate and when Chambliss refuses to show call a victory.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Oh Mule, never has obvious troll been so obvious.

There is something kind of funny about the Jim Martin campaign. This being the only contest left which could contribute to the magic 60 seats, so you figure it would be the most energetic campaign we've seen yet. And I do get an email at least once every two days asking for money. I just don't see a whole lot of 'oomph' being put into this thing

Sedi said...

Mule Rider,
How exactly do you define "ideological bigotry"? This post is about what Martin would need to win in the upcoming run-off election, which seems awfully far removed from ideology to me. And since Nate's conclusion is that there is "not yet any reason to conclude that the race will turn out all that much differently than it did on November 4th," are you suggesting that Nate is really a conservative (since Chambliss had more votes in the Nov. 4 election)?

Or perhaps you were talking about the comments section? Still, it's hard for me to see since the comments before yours were about: 1. Martin needs to work harder; 2. Not first; 3. Obama hasn't helped Martin, maybe phonebanking would help; 4. Martin is a bad candidate so Chambliss's negative ads are working; 5. Chambliss has lots more ads, and I'm voting for Martin in the run-off; and 6. Who is paying for the ads?
How are any of these comments ideological in any sense of the word?

btw: Luke, did you mean that you voted for Chambliss in the general election (you said the primary)? I didn't think that Chambliss had a competitive primary.

Ed in NJ said...

Interesting analysis, Nate. It seems from reading the blogs all the coverage is about Chambliss, good or bad. Unless the electorate is just sick of the negative campaigning, it just doesn't seem like Martin has any chance.

And Mule Rider, can you give us an update on your identity and credentials that make you more than just a pimple on Nate's ass? And how are the meds taking this week? You are a sad, pathetic loser. Don't you realize that Nate is your master? If he closed this site down, you'd be even less than the nobody you are right now.

To those of you that question Mule Riders mental state, just observe the deterioration in anger and madness over the next weeks as his "callout" to Nate continues to be ignored.

Sean said...

This race would have greater urgency if it was to get to 60 Democrats, instead of 59 Democrats and one unabashed Republican who only cozies up to the Democrats when the GOP has nothing to offer him.

The Dems lost my support the minute they capitulated to Lieberman, and after giving money to every campaign that asked for it during the general election I'm keeping my wallet in my pocket this time out. Let Lieberman fans cover my share.

aria said...

I can agree with Joe and as I have been saying all along, Martin is coming out to fight as a worm, not as a warrior. The Chambliss' ads are more viral and have been accused Martin as being soft on heinous crimes, i.e. prostitution, pedophilia, etc., while Martin is juvenilely attempting to associate Chambliss with bailout policies. The sheer number of Chambliss' ads are staggering -- 4 to 1.

Moreover, GOP party is flooding the voters with robocalls and they have pretty much been calling every single day not to mention they have gone through every GOP head talk either coming down here or have them call the voters. It's has gone so far as "wives" of the governor and Lt. governor also have been calling lately. GOP in GA obviously is well organized and scaring people to the possibility of "liberals" end up having a filibuster power. Martin is really ineffectual and appears to be in lost of his campaign. GOP supporters even have switched gears to "mocking" him just like people did that to Sarah Palin -- Martin has become a butt of the joke lately.

I hardly doubt he wins this runoff.

Statler N Waldorf said...

Oh Sean! Do be careful out there in Georgia. I hear the Russians invaded there earlier this year. If you could, can you get one of those furry hats for me?

Liana said...

It is a discouraging landscape down here, and I get the impression the Martin campaign is disorganized at best. I emailed three or four times offering to canvas, make calls, etc., and after a couple weeks finally heard from the local Dem Party organizer, who couldn't tell me who to contact about helping out in my area. A couple days ago, though, I got an email telling me how to sign up to make calls through myobama, so maybe the Martin folks are at last getting hooked in to the Obama machine . . . just in time for all their volunteers to go on vacation.

David Rein said...

I'm glad you've posted on this.
From the ground in Georgia, this race certainly seems to be slipping away.


An issue that is rarely if ever mentioned is that Jim Martin defeated African-American Vernon Jones in the primary run-off after losing to Jones in the original primary. I think there is more to this than meets the eye and many AA voters may hold a grudge against Martin. I base this on


a. From the Exit polls Martin's AA share ran well behind Obama's and


b. From the election results, nearly 100,000 more voters voted for Obama than for Martin. Given that Martin finished with a greater vote percentage of the Senate race than Obama did of the Presidential (fewer total voted in the Senate race) I am assuming this represents about 100,000 votes of Obama-generated turnout that were ungetable by Martin on election day. That's a strong headwind to be running into.


What's the electoral moral of this story? I think unfortunately the key to winning the run-off is to become more appealing to White voters, something that Martin is struggling with and that also seems to run counter to his strategy.

One final comment. Although the racial breakdown doesn't look great for Martin on Early voting the results by County so a more favorable split: 346,583 from Fulton/Dekalb compared to 321,017 from Cobb, Gwinette, Henry. That's at least competitive.

the old perfesser said...

Maybe this is Lieberman's opportunity to return the favor; get down thre to Georggia, and tell Georgians why Chambliss needs to be replaced by Martin.

Zapunar Mckintard said...

I've heard that President-elect Mule Rider has been robocalling in Georgia- little wonder then that JM is losing his ass.

aria: what's wrong with prostitution- I wouldn't have called that a heinous crime, more like hard work- especially when Mule Rider has his tail up!

Bill P. said...

Mule Rider offers nothing of substance to any discussion and may be safely ignored. It's just another extremist social conservative pouting about being thoroughly whooped on 11/4.

Sarah said...

Sean's spending Thanksgiving covering the runoff? Someone arrange to get the man some turkey!

andrew said...

Obama will not be holding any rallies in Atlanta anytime soon. Our President-elect is smart enough to read the writing on the wall: Martin is dead in the water.

Congratulations Georgia on another 6 years of regressive politics!

David said...

Ass Rider is not a pimple on Nate's ass. Ass Rider doesn't rate that high.Nate would probably notice that he has a pimple down south, but I doubt he gives your rantings and insane challenges a second thought.

Don't be jealous that Nate is reaping the rewards for the massive time he spent on this project.

You claim you are more intelligent than Nate, well get your own web site and prove it!

It's funny, you spent a month spewing hatred at Obama, and then spent a few weeks try to claim that you are not full of hate and are a moderate, reasonable person. Now you are just unhinged and seething with jealousy.

***********************************
It seems like the drive to dump Chambliss is not there any more. Perhaps it is because the general election was so long and emotionally draining.

Hopefully through the final days a strong GOTV drive will happen.

Hummon said...

What Sean will find in Georgia is (a) a candidate in Martin who has less charisma than the space bar I am currently using and (b) a Republican attack machine in full on nasty get-out-the-base mode. Martin has no chance. His primary opponent, Vernon Jones, would have had even less of a chance. A repellent figure. The skeletons that the GOP kept hoping to find in Obama's closet? Vernon has six closets full.

There aren't many Democratic heavyweights left in Georgia - Jim Marshall? Cathy Cox? I would like our chances if one of them were the candidate.

Keeping my Martin yard sign up, but most quixotically.

radioman said...

So far it doesn't look good for Martin http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/25/75724/343/1021/666149

Robby said...

Yeah, I'm not too optimistic about GA-Sen either.

On a side note, why isn't the African-American community making a bigger deal about this race? Georgia is a state with a significant AA population, so this is a state where they could have a real impact. The more Democrats in the Senate, the easier it will be for Obama to enact his agenda (which will certainly be better for urban Americans than anything the Congressional Republicans have in mind), so it would seem to me they have a vested interest in this race.

As for Mule Rider, he just wants to see his name in type as much as possible. So I'll oblige him: Mule Rider Mule Rider, Mule Rider. Mule Rider Mule Rider Mule Rider. Mule Rider? Mule Rider, Mule Rider!

There you go, champ; that should last you for a day or so.

wv - comul ("I refer to the sockpuppet Dirty Harry as a comul.")

Bartholomew said...

Help Jim Martin: http://nationalfield.org/phonebank

Ren and Stimpy said...

I for one thinks mule rider is at the top of the class in here and not many of you can hold a candle to his intelectual fortitude.

He has many fans by those of us who usually just observe the comments section.

Some of you would do well to have a fraction of the intelligence the mule rider does.

Robby said...

Thank, David Rein; perhaps I should have read your comment before posting mine.

Sean - 60 Democrats doesn't mean a damn thing, because seats don't vote, senators do.

We can swipe the few remaining moderate Republican senators on the more obvious stuff (stem cell research, energy policy, etc.), but on the long shot stuff 60 seats wouldn't do us any good, because they could just easily snipe conservative Democrats like Conrad or Johnson.

Frank said...

Would it help or hinder Martin if Obama were to campaign for him? I.e. would it mobilise the racist base to vote against him?

Obama would certainly risk losing some momentum/polityical capital if he did campaign, and Martin lost. It would also make him look more partisan than Presidential.

Glix said...

If I were running Martin's ground game I would use an email/ipod blast to get out the people who voted for him the first time. Then I would focus on door to door canvassing of the Libertarian voters. Getting them out to vote for Martin (or vote against Chambliss) is the key.

Wayward Son said...

I'm not certain the Democrats actually want 60 votes in the Senate. Now, if they were primarily concerned with pushing an actual agenda, it would be a perfect scenario.

But if we've learned anything over the past 40 years, it's that the Dems are much more interested in maintaining power, while actually accomplishing very little. No accomplishments, no blame.

That 60th vote might actually give the voters a reason to think a progressive platform would be enacted, and what excuse are Reid and Pelosi going to invent then? The sun was in their eyes?

No.. 59 is better. Pull in a Republican when an issue brings in some money for the home state, but blame the Republicans for somehow stopping everything else.. just because theoretically they might have been able to.

eve said...

Palin is deploying to Georgia to campaign for Chambliss. That ought to help Martin. Did these people not pay attention to what happened to McCain's campaign?

I do wonder what animals will be slaughtered at Palin's rallies.

Opus 132 said...

I am amazed at the number of responses/comments Mule Rider's nauseating posts get.

Mule Rider's posts have only one objective:to get a response,any response!

Ignore him and he'll fade away like the fetid ill wind he is.

eve said...

Ren and Stempy said:
"He has many fans by those of us who usually just observe the comments section."

And how would you know that about people who do not comment? Are you psychic?

Mule Rider said...

I am amazed at the number of responses/comments Mule Rider's nauseating posts get.

Really?! How can you be amazed that I get the number of responses I do when you - in a twist of irony - come on to complain that I get such a response and to preach about how I should be ignored, yet all the while are fully acknowledging me further and not ignoring me?

Face it. I'm an icon on here and have my own fan base. That's enough to drown out your pathetic drivel.

Ren and Stimpy said...

eve -

I said it was people who "usually" just observe the comments, not my psychic interpretation based on "nothing."

There are plenty of comments from time to time from various posters who extoll the virtues of mule rider and some people have a strong admiration of him.

This has been observed. Not something I made up.

DCM in FL said...

REN said

"There are plenty of comments from time to time from various posters who extoll the virtues of mule rider and some people have a strong admiration of him."

ROFLOL

you are either delirious or an alter for Mule Head

just because you say it, does not make it so as all the regulars know...

otherwise, please TRY to provide a modicum of truth supported by actual facts or PROOF rather than flights of puerile fantasy

WV - coucre

David said...

"I for one thinks mule rider is at the top of the class in here and not many of you can hold a candle to his intelectual fortitude."

It is just sad when you have to create other accounts to support yourself Ass Rider.

Post one thing Ass Rider ever wrote that was intelligent. See if you can limit the number of hate-filled, retarded posts that he wrote under 1000.

Come out behind your handles and create a web site with substance and maybe then you can get the adulation you so desperately crave.

DCM in FL said...

DAVID

touche, and I second your motion

Robby said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Robby said...

Mule Rider

I'm an icon on here and have my own fan base.

Oh, you're like our very own Sarah Palin; the gift of hilarious stupidity that keeps on giving.

God bless you.

chgoblue said...

Still going through withdrawal from this site after election day!

Georgia does not look good, Martin is not exactly inspiring.

It appears that the Shrilla from Wasilla can't stay out of the spotlight longer than 24 hours.

Mule boy reminds me of a child that pouts when ignored and then screams and cries to get attention..do us all a favor, take your toys and go home!

Mule Rider said...

Oh, you all are too hilarious. I guess it serves you well to stroke your own ego by slamming me and calling me an ignorant twit or a child wanting of attention.

Whatever floats your boat.

I find that funny coming from a bunch of internet hoodlums who likely have severe psychological problems.

As if I'm worried about your hate and vitriol. Puh-lease!

Nothing any of you say means a damn. I'm just some name on a computer screen. That's it. Just a name - "Mule Rider".

None of you would know me from Adam if you were to bump into me on the street corner. You think you know me. You hurl insults, telling me to shut the f**k up, take my meds, or whatever other insult you can fire off to feel good about yourself.

But the truth is, you are all just miserable imps who have big chips on their shoulder. Some life. I actually pity you - DCM, Robby, David, et al - as you all are very sad. It's a shame, really, but that's just what happens sometimes.

Johnkel24 said...

I really feel Obama can win on election cay. The polls and his organi . . . oh wait, he won already.

Now what do we talk about?

The Georgia Senate race? I mean it's important, but it just lacks the excitement that the Presidential contest.
I think I'm going into withdrawal.

My God, I think I'm starting to concentrate on my job and everyday life again.

Someone save me!

Robby said...

1:37pm CST Mule Rider says something hilariously stupid

2:33pm CST Mule Rider says something hilariously stupid.

Seriously, I could just about set my watch to the douchebaggery that comes from that little boy's keyboard.

Thanks for the laughs, Mule!

(For funsies, go back and reread the part in his last post where Mule brazenly contradicts himself, as if two different idiots had written his comment. Classic Mule Rider!)

Mule Rider said...

Nate Silver is scared of me, anyway.

He sets up these ridiculous caricatures that he deems representative of "conservatives" at large and blasts away at them relentlessly and mercilessly while the thuggish masses help pile it on.

A-holes like John Zeigler are not representative of conservative thought. Nor are some of the other stooges Nate uses to set up his conservative straw men only to knock them down.

As I've said repeatedly, why doesn't he (Nate) be intellectually honest and bring on mainstream conservatives (independent conservatives, in my case) to refute the allegations that are hurled at us, often unfairly.

Nope, it's too easy to frame the narrative where you come out on top. As a poster, this is solely how Mason operates. He ignores all other facts and statistics that disprove his argument, as well as any common sense, and only sticks with his liberal distorted view of the world based on a few cherry-picked "facts." How naive and myopic. Not open-minded, in the least, but hey, whoever wants to live in the dark more than has that right.

Mule Rider said...

Did you have something you wanted to "discuss" and prove me wrong or ill-informed, or are you just going to be an incredibly ignorant mook and keep posting the kind of stuff that resembles what you might find in a dirty diaper.

You are a joke. A complete joke. Human waste. Hah!

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Anyone who looks at this realistically should realize Martin doesn't have a chance in this runoff. It's been pretty obvious for a while that a lot of his support would fade with Obama off the ticket, and the Republicans are really running scared now at the thought of the Dems having 60 seats (even if this doesn't mean as much as some of them think.)

--
Charles M. Kozierok
Publisher & Webmaster
CurEvents.com - A Global Current Events and News Discussion Forum - News, Politics, Science and more... join us!

Mule Rider said...

Come on, Robby. Name one issue where I've taken a stance where I can be proven wrong. Name one instance where I've quoted "facts" or "statistics" that were inaccurate or misleading and made my point fallacious.

Come on, dude, do it. Since I post nothing but ignorant drivel that's full of lies and such, you should have no trouble providing said information.

Or do you want me to humiliate you?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"A-holes like John Zeigler are not representative of conservative thought."

Yeah, actually, they are. Not all of them, of course, but a very large percentage.

At any rate, Nate analyzes polls and therefore had reason to question Ziegler's joke of one. That doesn't have anything to do with whether Ziegler is "representative" or not.

--
Charles M. Kozierok
Publisher & Webmaster
CurEvents.com - A Global Current Events and News Discussion Forum - News, Politics, Science and more... join us!

David said...

Since Ass Rider has never quoted a fact or statistic, is there a point to your lame challenge?

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Palin is deploying to Georgia to campaign for Chambliss. That ought to help Martin. Did these people not pay attention to what happened to McCain's campaign?"

Yeah, but this is Georgia. Her unique combination of folksy, sorta-cute, bigoted and stupid plays well down there.


--
Charles M. Kozierok
Publisher & Webmaster
CurEvents.com - A Global Current Events and News Discussion Forum - News, Politics, Science and more... join us!

David said...

Amazing Palin is the gift that keeps on giving.

At some point she is going to realize that she is a laughing stock to all but the fundie nutbags and just go away.

But until then, she should feel free to continue to make a mockery of the republican party and help tear it apart some more.

Mule Rider said...

That doesn't have anything to do with whether Ziegler is "representative" or not.

Uh, he used his little back-and-forth with John as the impetus for an entire article called - Did Talk Radio Kill Conservatism? - so I'd say, yeah, he was trying to link Ziegler and all conservatives under the same roof.

Charles, you simply don't get it.


David,

Long ago, before I got too entangled in way too many shouting matches, I posted numerous facts about economic and energy policy only to be shouted down and have my evidence ignored or dismissed as fabricated or whatever because they like nothing more to lie in the stew and stench of liberalism.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Uh, he used his little back-and-forth with John as the impetus for an entire article called - Did Talk Radio Kill Conservatism? - so I'd say, yeah, he was trying to link Ziegler and all conservatives under the same roof."

He didn't say *all* conservatives. He was just talking about the movement as a whole.

The most rational explanation is this: Silver went to talk to Ziegler about the poll, expecting that he'd be interacting with a reasonable person. Instead, he found that the guy is a brainwashed asshole who deliberately skewed his "poll" to get the results he wanted.

And then Silver noticed that Ziegler sounded a lot like the talking heads on hate radio (which he does) and that led to the article.

--
Charles M. Kozierok
Publisher & Webmaster
CurEvents.com - A Global Current Events and News Discussion Forum - News, Politics, Science and more... join us!

Bob X said...

Mule Rider said "... Just a waste of time and a bunch of mindless drivel from nothing more than internet hoodlums driven by ideological bigotry."
Come on, don't be so hard on yourself! You need to work on your self-esteem.
"rewormite": the drug Mule Rider needs?

David said...

Ass Rider,

Sadly, I was here when you started. You posted nothing but vile hatred for Obama and anyone who supported him.

For a brief period, you attempted to sound rational, but even then didn't post anything of substance. This was after the third or fourth time you said you were leaving for good.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Any respect I had for him was lost permanantly when he threw a hissy fit and posted over 100 spam messages in a row to a thread, which is likely the reason we are now all stuck with this stupid word verification.

Understand it, MR: nobody cares if you think you are superior to everyone here. Really.

--
Charles M. Kozierok
Publisher & Webmaster
CurEvents.com - A Global Current Events and News Discussion Forum - News, Politics, Science and more... join us!

Mule Rider said...

Charles,

However you want to spin what happened or interpret it is fine with me.

All I know is that it's too easy to pounce on an interview with or something said by a John Zeigler, a Jerry Falwell, a Michele Bachmann, a James Inhofe, a Rush Limbaugh etc. as being the foundation of your denunciation of conservative thought.

Do liberals want to be held accountable and measured against everything that comes from Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, Ingrid Newkirk, Markos Moulitsas, and others of that ilk?

Mule Rider said...

Understand it, MR: nobody cares if you think you are superior to everyone here. Really.

No shit, Sherlock. And the feeling is 100% mutual. I don't care what you assholes think of me.

My point is to give you turds a reminder that YOU are the ones who are not superior, intellectually or otherwise, to everyone else in the world. And it's to say that no one outside of 538 (and maybe Daily Kos and a couple of other liberal havens) cares what you all think.

Bob X said...

Mule Rider said "...I don't care what you assholes think of me."
You spend an awful lot of time on what you don't care about. Maybe you should find a hobby that you do care about: might make your life a little more satisfying?
"dingut": cross between a dingo dog and a wingnut

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UPDATES ALL DAY: Sustainability discussion + Chambliss should testify in Imperial Sugar case +
Fundamental transport overhaul needed. + Bush Auctions off A Little Utah on His Prolonged Way Out. + Want a wind turbine? + Who bails out the destitute?

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Mule Rider said...

Charles and Others,

It would behoove you to realize how insignificant your opinions are and how far out onto the fringe your thinking is.

Nobody else has the temerity to come in here time after time and pour it on to you moonbats and tell you how awful your ideology is, so I've taken it upon myself to champion the cause.

And I'm starting to get a fan base of support. So you just might see me put up my own blog in the very near future.

STepper said...

Donkey Rider is indeed the asshole who caused wv to be added to this site. Occasionally he simulates intelligent, ultra right thought. But most of the time he is an attention grabbing teenager. I now regularly ignore him, but looked at Charles M's posts and saw that the Donkey Rider is again calling attention to himself.

I am, however, somewhat concerned about how this site has become so speculative now that we have so little polling data.

wv - adshe - thanks Ass Rider

syr93 said...

I've been posting about the GA Senate race for a while in comments. I still think Chambliss by 11%. Unfortunately.

Nick said...

Uh, he used his little back-and-forth with John as the impetus for an entire article called - Did Talk Radio Kill Conservatism? - so I'd say, yeah, he was trying to link Ziegler and all conservatives under the same roof.

Sigh.

Re-read the article.

There are intelligent and reasonable conservatives. Most of the ones that I know personally - either on the web or "in real life" fit that bill. Maybe you do as well. Sometimes, I believe that you sound reasonable, but then you demonize the left with stereotypes and insulting all while complaining about the same and professing to take the high road.

However, the reasonable conservatives are not the voice of conservatives. Instead, the conservative mouthpieces are nutjobs such as Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Malkin, Savage and yes, Ziegler.

That is the problem that conservatism is facing. Not that its rank-and-file are all looney tunes. But that the people that are ostensibly their spokespeople are. Many of these spokespeople approach each issue with utter disbelief that anybody could possibly see the issue from a different point of view seriously crippling their chances of persuading any body that does because they can't frame the argument. Worse, enough of the rank-and-file find them entertaining enough to keep giving them listeners.

Ziegler and his like aren't all conservatives. But as long as they are seen by the majority as representing them due to the absence of reasonable conservatives, they'll continue to handicap conservatism. And that's basically what the article said.

Personally, I think that Nate is burying conservatism a bit early. I think that a lot of the recent liberal swing is just the pendulum swinging back.

Juris said...

@STepper
This site will always have some speculation, some "politics" to discuss. It's never been just a statistical analysis site. Remember its origins.

That said, Nate stated right after the election that the site is in a transitional state. Nate has given some clues to what it's going to become -- for one thing, focusing on Congress (and Congress members' voting patterns) and policy issues.

Since as you are well aware this site is essentially a 2-man operation, putting out "new content" while also "remaking the site" (including creating whole new databases) is going to take a bit of time, even if Nate adds permanent technical and site-design staff.

Furthermore, I read in an Q&A that he gave shortly after the election that he's got serious "baseball stats" responsibilities during this period, as he has to develop the forecasts for next year's Baseball Prospectus annual, which has to go to the printer in early January.

In the meantime, I think Nate's done some pretty interesting stuff in the post-election era -- including the Zogby-Ziegler undressing.

So I think we should cut Nate a bit of slack, expect something exciting to come in the future, but not judge 538 by what it is right now.

wv: scriter (a person who scrawls)

Mule Rider said...

Nick,

Great post. But the point still remains that Nate, while pushing himself as a statistical geek based on "facts" and an up-and-coming pundit, still has to resort to trashing conservatives by tackling ridiculous caricatures of them in the representative form of someone like John Ziegler.

Hey, Nate rose to prominence by doing stuff a little different and thinking "outside the box" and seeing things that not many other people (pundits) saw. He gets credit for that. But if he just becomes a more quantitative Keith Olbermann, then he is really doing himself, his fans, and this country a disservice.

If he wants to look deeper at the ideological divide in this country - where it exists, as I'm convinced we're not all as far apart as it seems - then he has to actually dig deeper and not pick the low-hanging fruit (John Ziegler) that is rotten, nasty, and about to fall to the ground anyway.

Bryan said...

Martin is a weak candidate that almost won due to the African American surge of votes and lack of enthusiasm among the Republican regulars in the general election. From what I can see they R's are much more energised this round of voting to stop a super majority and Martin just does not have enough energy OTP (outside the Atlanta perimiter) - Saxby by 7 my prediction.

Mule Rider said...

To put this into context, I had never before heard of John Ziegler before I saw this poll that was done by him through Zogby and the ensuing fallout here on 538.

So for those of you who would try to tie me to such a birdbrain, I had never heard of the guy just one month ago.

Nick said...

There's a whole lot of that low-hanging fruit and it seems to have a heckuva following considering that it's practically the only thing I can find on the airwaves when driving along the interstates in the South.

What Nate was addressing is the image of conservatism and that is a problem and will continue to be so until the non-caricatures of conservatism speak up for themselves. I presume that's part of what you're trying to do, but calling him a coward because he won't debate some anonymous blogger doesn't make you look like much of a step past those nuts.

Yes, there are other stories and issues that he could be addressing. But not addressing one specific angle that you want him to doesn't mean that he's a coward or misrepresenting conservatives. There are a bajillion issues that he's not addressing that I'd like to see, but that doesn't make him derelict in duty.

It's not his job to reform the conservative movement. It's yours ... and the rest of the conservatives that disavows those caricatures. But whining at people and then insulting them when they won't help you generate positive press for conservatives probably isn't going to go far.

I think that you're going at it backwards. Instead of trying to generate a story based on your reaction to another story, create one completely on your own.

vRad said...

Martin is a horrible candidate.

However, what Chambliss is doing is a huge disservice to the US. He is running ads that are already poisoning the well for an Obama candidacy, with outright lies about Obama.

He brings up the "different from us" angle in some ads, the "he will take away your guns" angle, etc..

Much less than attacking Martin, he is now attacking Obama, and in a state like Georgia, this can cause real problems.

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

Mule Rider,

I offer this in all good conscience. I believe you think you can debate Nate Silver and prevail on any number of subjects. However, I doubt you'd try to engage someone in conversation by walking up to them and yelling at them in public. At the least you'd embarrass yourself, at worst you'd get your ass kicked and possibly arrested.

So why do you insist on doing the same thing in the comments section here? It isn't productive, does nothing to advance your position (and frankly, I have a hard time telling what your position is because of all the noise) and has apparently already made quite a few of people mad enough that they would like to kick your ass, given the chance. There is no way anyone is going to engage you in the "duel" you seek - which you suggest should be a high level debate of ideas - because you call them names. All we get is the name calling back and forth which you then turn around and try to claim is awful, now that its directed at (rather than by) you. Plus, every time you resort to name calling and belittling, you engage in those very Fox News/Rush Limbaugh/echo chamber tactics that you claim don't represent conservatism.

If you really feel you have coherent theories and alternatives to anything posted by Nate, by all means tack up your 95 theses on the cathedral door. Just remember, Luther didn't call anyone a "moonbat" or "wingnut" to make his point. Neither did Locke, or Adam Smith, Thomas Paine (who, like you, used the term "common sense" as a synonym for how he personally felt), Jefferson, Patrick Henry, John, Sam or even Abigail Adams. They used polite terma of address even as the opponents of their ideals were variously accusing them of heresy, treason and similarly severe acts (admittedly, Hamilton was known to be cutting personally and fought that duel with Burr, but you can't find such animosity in the Federalist papers). That restraint and civility is in no small part why we respect the thoughts of these leaders so.

In sum, please elevate your tone. Even if others won't, that shouldn't be your concern, if you really want anyone to follow your ideas (rather than just know the heat of your feelings).

Wes said...

A couple of things of interest in the GA race:

*Chambliss on the recession: The DSCC has some good anti-Chambliss ads out. I don't know how widely they are being seen, but they use a clip of Chambliss saying recently that he doesn't know what a recession is.

*Chambliss also has been doing a lot of golfing in his years in office--lots of junkets and lobbyists and such. No problem for him unless Martin has the savvy to use his behavior effectively in the closing days. (Does he have the money left to run a lot of ads?)

*Sarah Palin - This could be interesting. She's going to be campaigning with good ol' Saxby in the next few days. Please, please, let her talk all she wants. This could be the break Jim Martin needs. The more she talks, the greater the odds she says something really stupid, offensive, or mind-boggling. No--not just to liberals, but to members of her own party. How will those suburban Atlanta libertarians who voted for Buckley feel about her? How will those national security Republicans feel about her? How will the evangelicals take to her? How will those Main Street-small-town (former Democratic) Republicans react to her? What are the odds that, with several appearances in the state, she ticks off at least one conservative constituency enough to cause Saxby a bit of regret for bringing her in? It may not be enough to change the outcome, but it will be nice to see the GOP fracture a bit further.

Of course, it's GA-GT weekend and Thanksgiving, so nobody may be paying attention, but it's interesting that Saxby thought he needed to get her help, as well as Rudy Giuliani's at the last minute. After McCain's defeat, I wonder if the base-appeal of Palin and Giuliani is what Saxby apparently thinks it is. They both just seem like old news.

Nick said...

To put this into context, I had never before heard of John Ziegler before I saw this poll that was done by him through Zogby and the ensuing fallout here on 538.

So for those of you who would try to tie me to such a birdbrain, I had never heard of the guy just one month ago.


That's pretty much my point. Ziegler generated his own story and got attention.

And it would not have even occurred to me to tie Ziegler in with the majority of conservative thinking except for your complaints about it. But maybe I'm just close to Nate's wave length.

I've noticed a similar problem in the past with liberalism. If you ask somebody if they're liberal, they'll say "Hell no!", but if you ask about their positions, they'll agree with a majority of liberal positions. So liberalism had an image problem, furthered by the impression that liberals think that they're better than everybody else and that people that don't agree with them are stupid. (You've alluded to that a bit yourself.) That's true in the case of some liberals. But not in the case of the majority.

So maybe I just already have empathy with the issue.

Nick said...

Edit: That's part of my point. Not "pretty much" or most or anything like that.

DCM in FL said...

ah, I miss the REAL Mule Head

this is clearly his notorious sock puppet from those heady days of October

this clown is just tired & pathetic & angry that BHO was elected - just as Nate had correctly predicted...

ps - FL went BLUE also just as I [also] predicted it would btw

WV - 'ungsa' - what the FBI profilers call the perps...

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Max B. said...

just got back from a week in atl volunteering for the ga dem party, mostly phonebanking. there's tons of that - obama turned over his website's phonebanking and canvassing tools to the martin campaign, but the focus is heavily on the former in order to maximize contact in the limited timeframe. there was plenty of energy and activity in the main office there. the general sense is that saxby is all over tv and is robocalling, but that the dems have the ground game just about all to themselves. the common sentiment there, though, is that it will be difficult to energize the african-american vote without a visit from the president-elect. i mostly agree - if obama visits, martin will probably be a slight favorite; if not, he'll remain the definitive underdog, though by no means a sure loser.

David Rein said...

Just a point of clarification. I don't want to leave the impression that I think Vernon Jones was a good candidate. I do think Jim Martin gave us our best chance of winning this seat.


My point is that there is an unacknowledged headwind to Martin's apparent 'mobilize the African American Obama voting contingent' strategy that is hindering his ability to win.

Not sure that there is anything he can do to mitigate this problem and I'm not suggesting he should try.
What I'm arguing is that his campaign should recognize the issue and change tactics to focus on converting more Whites if he is able to.

Robby said...

Mule Rider

Come on, Robby. Name one issue where I've taken a stance where I can be proven wrong. Name one instance where I've quoted "facts" or "statistics" that were inaccurate or misleading and made my point fallacious.

How about the part where you said you were a better intellect than Nate, and you had much more sophisticated insight to offer into politics and polling? I even offered you a method to prove your thesis: start a site that competes with 538.com, and beat him.

Or are you one of those conservatives that only likes free markets when he's winning?

aria said...

AssMonkey Rider is nothing but an attention seeker who quips and recapitulates on topics long abandoned. He has inadvertently portrayed himself as an arm-chair warrior that spends his lonely times pounding on keyboard just so the rest of the visitors see him as a finger wagging aunt Sally who supposedly restores common sense while in reality, he rakes fingernails across his own inner chalkboard so loud that it reaches across the Internet.


A quintessential illustration of a self-styled nabob of ninnyism. Stop enabling him.

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平平 said...

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平平 said...

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徵信 said...

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