11.10.2008

Franken's Odds of Winning Recount May Be Long -- or Short

Votes counted in Minnesota's senate race: 2,833,089

Votes separating Norm Coleman and Al Franken: 221

Determining a candidate's odds of winning a recount is a function of three parameters. The first parameter is the margin separating the leading and trailing candidates. In Minnesota, this margin is apparently 221 votes -- although it has changed several times since results first came in on Tuesday night (it was originally more than 700), and it may change again before results are finalized this week. But let's assume that 221 is the correct number for the time being.

The second parameter is what I call the Correctable Error Rate (CER). This is the percentage of ballots that were not counted originally, but which will be counted given a hand recount.

The third parameter is the percentage of recounted ballots which are resolved for the trailing candidate -- in this case, Al Franken. It might seem natural to assume that this number is 50.0%, but there is good reason to think that it might not be. More in this in a moment.

But for now, let's get back to estimating that other parameter, the Correctable Error Rate. There are essentially two reasons why a vote might be missed in a machine count. The first is if the voter undervotes the ballot, and the second is if he overvotes it.

An overvote occurs when a machine -- in this case, Minnesota's optical ballot scanners -- registers a vote for two or more candidates in a given race. When this occurs, the machine throws both votes out, meaning that no vote is recorded in that race. An overvote is always -- or almost always -- unintentional. It may occur, for instance, when a voter initially selects one candidate and then crosses his name out before picking the other one (see example from the Minnesota Secretary of State below). It might also occur if, say, a voter fully fills in the oval beside one candidate, but then leaves a stray pen mark beside another candidate's name.



An undervote is just the opposite -- it occurs when the machine is unable to record a vote for any candidate in that race. This is probably the more common error, and may occur if the voter fails to follow the ballot's instructions in any number of ways, such as by placing an 'X' by the candidate's name rather than filling in his oval, or using his own pen or pencil rather than the one provided to him. Unlike an overvote, however, an undervote may oftentimes be intentional -- the voter may simply skip a race that he is not interested in.



The Associated Press has reported that there were approximately 25,000 ballots -- or about 0.9 percent of the total cast in Minnesota -- in which a vote was recorded for the presidency but not for Minnesota's senate race. This figure might be either too high or too low as an estimate of the true error rate in Minnesota. On the one hand, in many or perhaps even most of these cases, the voter may have left the senate race blank intentionally. On the other hand, this total is not inclusive of certain other types of errors, such as when the voter undervoted both the presidency and the senate race (as might occur when the voter was systematically making the same error in all the races on his ballot), or when the machine recorded a vote, but did so for the wrong candidate (this particular error should be fairly rare, but may happen occasionally).

For what it is worth, an 0.9 percent error rate would be fairly consistent with other studies of optical scanning systems, which are considered among the more reliable voting technologies (they are almost certainly the most reliable fully auditable voting system). These error rates are relatively low, in part, because most optical scanning systems can quickly read a ballot before it is handed to the poll worker, alerting a voter to potential overvotes or undervotes -- a process known as 'precinct scan'. In Minnesota, the vast majority of counties have such precinct scanning systems, but they may be applied inconsistently -- it appears that in most precincts, for instance, the machines were programmed to alert the voter to an overvote, but not to an undervote. If a precinct scan check is not applied, or the poll worker is too busy or distracted to alert the voter, error rates using optical scanning systems be at least twice as high.

Still, I would guess that 0.9 percent is toward the higher end of the plausible range for what I am calling the Correctable Error Rate -- the fraction of ballots that will be resolved differently when recounted by hand than when initially counted by machine. Many undervotes, as mentioned above, may be intentional. Among those that aren't, moreover, the voter's intent might not be sufficiently easy to determine even upon a hand recount. I would guess that somewhere between 7,500 and 25,000 ballots (or about 0.25 percent to 0.90 percent of the total vote) will actually be reclassified during the hand recount. Moreover, about 15 percent of these votes will be counted for third-party candidate Dean Barkley, rendering them essentially meaningless.

If the Correctable Error Rate in fact falls somewhere in this range, than Franken's chances of winning a recount are not very strong -- provided that a misclassified ballot is equally likely to favor Franken or Coleman. By using a binomial distribution, we can estimate Franken's chances of gaining at least 221 votes given various CER's:

Correctable      Odds of Franken
Error Rate Winning Recount*
=================================
0.10% 0.00%
0.25% 0.24%
0.50% 2.27%
0.75% 5.14%
0.90% 6.93%
1.00% 8.01%
1.50% 12.52%
2.00% 16.04%
3.00% 21.00%
* Assuming equal distribution of Franken, Coleman errors.
If, for instance, 25,000 votes or about 0.9 percent of the total are reclassified during the recount, than Franken's odds of winning are only about 7 percent. If only 0.5 percent of the total vote is reclassified, then his odds of winning are not much more than 2 percent.

Until now, however, we have been assuming that ballot tabulation errors are equally likely to favor Franken and Coleman -- but this is probably not the case. Why not? There is substantial evidence that undervotes and overvotes are significantly more common among what we might call vulnerable voters -- in particular, minorities, elderly voters, low-income and low-education voters, and first-time voters. A 2001 study for the House Committee on Government Reform, found that undervoted ballots were more than twice as common in minority-heavy, low-income precincts than in predominately white, upper-income precincts -- even when using the relatively reliable, precinct-based optical scanning system that Minnesota uses. (The discrepancies are significantly higher when using less reliable technologies like punch cards.)

How might these demographics play out in Minnesota? According to exit polls, elderly voters split their votes almost exactly evenly between Franken and Coleman (Coleman's strength came from middle-aged voters, not older or younger ones). There was little relationship, moreover, between education levels and voter preferences.

Among other groups of vulnerable voters, however, Franken sigificantly outperformed Coleman. Franken led by 15 points among voters making $50,000 or less, while Coleman led by 3 among voters making between $50,000 and $100,000, and by 16 among voters making $100,000 or more. Coleman won white voters by 3 points, but Franken won among minorities by 40 points. And while there is no direct evidence of this in the exit polls, it is likely that Franken performed significantly better than Coleman among first-time voters.

Assume that minorities are 50% more likely than white voters to have undervoted the ballot; this is arguably a conservative assumption. If this is the case, than about 51.0% of reclassified ballots (excluding those cast for third parties) are likely to be resolved in Franken's favor. Alternatively, suppose that voters making $50,000 or less are 50% more likely than wealthier voters to have undervoted the ballot. In this case, 51.3% of reclassified ballots would go to Franken. This might not seem like a big deal, but as you'll see in a moment, it makes a huge amount of difference.

If, over the long run, we expect Franken to win 51% of corrected ballots, his odds of winning the recount may be quite strong -- in fact, he may be the prohibitive favorite depending on the number of recounted ballots:
Correctable      Odds of Franken
Error Rate Winning Recount*
=================================
0.10% 0.02%
0.25% 10.51%
0.50% 58.67%
0.75% 86.23%
0.90% 93.35%
1.00% 95.93%
1.50% 99.67%
2.00% 99.97%
3.00% 100.00%
* Assuming 51% of corrected ballots resolved for Franken over long-run.
Let me go ahead and give you an entire matrices' worth of data given various assumptions about the Correctable Error Rate and the fraction of correctable errors resolved in Franken's behalf -- the numbers in the table represent Franken's odds of winning the recount:



The values in bright yellow represent the ones that I consider to have stemmed from the most reasonable assumptions -- that is, a relatively low CER, but a slight majority of corrected ballots being resolved in Franken's favor. As you can see, this is not very helpful -- given different sets of "reasonable" assumptions, Franken is anywhere from the prohibitive underdog in the recount to the prohibitive favorite! The average value contained within the yellow region, however, is 44.3 percent, which is pretty close to where things are trading on Intrade right now.

A couple of additional notes before we close out. Firstly, it's very important that Franken's deficit is is down to 221 votes, rather than the 700 or so that it appeared to be originally. Suppose that the Corretable Error Rate is 0.75%, and that Franken wins 50.5% of corrected ballots; we have him winning the recount 39.3% of the time under these assumptions. If, however, Franken had to make up 700 votes rather than 221, his win percentage under these assumptions would be just 0.008% percent -- about a 13,000-to-1 longshot.

Secondly, in this article we have been thinking of ballot tabulation errors as essentially discrete and random events -- that is, there is no instrinsic relationship between your likelihood of having your vote miscounted and that of the person standing in line in front of you. There may be a separate class of errors, however, which we might call malfunctions: those which, presumably because of faulty technology, might affect a large number of ballots at once. If ballot tabulation errors are not independent of one another but instead are "clustered", than the odds for the trailing candidate to prevail in a recount may be higher than implied by the charts above.

194 comments

Kurt said...

My first comment on 538 is a first??

Excellent analysis Nate!

Joe The Fake Virginian said...

Go Al Franken!! Get us on the path to 60 and THEN boot Joe Lieberman in a show of strength.

Blue Dot In Texas said...

My goodness Nate - do you ever sleep? You need to get out more.
Also - Go Al!

Andy said...

Swear to God, Nate, you've broken my brain with this one. Perhaps it would be worth noting that the reason such a small change alters the race is because the difference between Franken and Coleman is, electorally speaking, infinitesimal.

Gregory said...

I really enjoyed this, stats plus politics equals inner joy.

Solid analysis and my favorite part was the chart at the end with likely and unlikely scenarios. Just as I was thinking "I should average those values to find out a reasonable percentage chance that he will win." you answered it for me. Thanks!

K from VA said...

Nate has singlehandedly made math nerds cool

Dale McGowan said...

Anyone unfamiliar with Coleman should read Garrison Keillor's essay in Salon written after Coleman's first win. A heartbreaking piece about a human cipher.

urtak.com said...

Nate,
Have you heard about the urtak project? It will transform the nature of public opinion and help us further transcend the jungle of traditional polling methodologies.

"Addictive. Smart." That's what most folks say.
Robert

Tabula Rasa said...

this post is a rachel maddow-like "talk me down" for stats geeks :-)

wv: tralorm. what we sing to ourselves after reading a nate silver talk-me-down.

ADMIN said...

Nate Silver I saw you here in Europe on TV during the election coverage -- you are a hottie! Brain plus a stud. Yummmy. Too bad you aren't in Europe and playing for another "team!"

Kathy said...

Thanks for giving my 538 addiction a little boost! I'm eager to see how this race, and the Alaska Senate seat shake out.

I'm also eager for the nation to tackle election methods after January swearing in period. This race seems to just involve the normal amount of error, but Alaska's......

Bobcat said...

Your sadistical analsis leaves me stunned. I want to see the results in that 98% area of the yellow. Go AL!!!

wv: ablepro: That's Obama....he's able and he's a pro.

Ted F. said...

Nate: If errors are "clustered", the trailing candidate's odds do not necessarily go up -- they simply regress to 50% (or, in this case, 51.3%). That would increase the trailing candidate's chances where his or her odds are close to 0%, but would decrease the trailing candidate's chances where his or her odds are close to 100%.

Best,

Ted Frank

kathy said...

This was bound to happen. There are two of us posting as "Kathy." I'm from Vt, and posted in the Senate thread about Leahy. I'll sign KathyVT to distinguish us, from now on.

Bob from Illinois said...

Okay Nate, this is my first post here. Here's my idea:

Although I live in Illinois, I received a couple of pieces of direct mail soliciting donations to the Franken campaign (probably because I subscribe to The Nation). I chose not to contribute, not because I wouldn't support Franken, but because I instead donated to Obama. Now I am wondering if that was a bad move.

So here's the thought. Can you calculate a marginal vote value (MVV) of each additional dollar donated to the Franken campaign? In other words, how many votes (or fraction thereof) would my hypothetical $100 donation to Franken have bought?

This kind of math seems right up your alley.

Thanks.

andrew said...

Al Franken is my favorite 2008 Senate challenger. America needs him to win this seat.

Daver said...

He's good enough, he's smart enough, and doggone it the binomial matrices like him...

Daver said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Glenn Doty said...

It seems likely that a disproportionate share of the overvote would go to Franken.

It's unlikely that voters in Minnesota were torn between Franken and Coleman. They were likely torn between third party and whichever mainstream party that they prefer.

If that is the case, whichever candidate was more popular among the Barkley voters would have the most overvotes. Every poll I've seen showed Franken doing much better than Coleman if Barkley wasn't listed among the candidates... which would imply that more of the people that were torn between mainstream and third party were deciding between Franken and Barkley, rather than Coleman and Barkley.

I guess we'll know in a couple of weeks.

Tabula Rasa said...

Nate profiled in the New York Times is GREAT NEWS!!!

wv: tritiful. During the 2008 election season, intelligent people discovered that fivethirtyeight carried by far the most tritiful of all analyses.

aiBRETTy said...

Now you're just showing off.

But seriously, this is good stuff. Your statistics are borderline art. Thanks for all you guys do.

justsomeguy said...

Great work!

I can tell the Nate-ster is catching up on his sleep.

Michael Blaine said...

Impressive, Nate!

Thank you.

Dan said...

Vintage Nate Silver. This is a tour-de-force of a post. Damn I love this site.

justsomeguy said...

So, the dems have a good chance at MN, a chance at AK - which means the 60th vote could be the Chambliss race in GA! GOTV!

Mrs B said...

So there is no possibility of any fix having gone in, or "mislaid" ballots? This is genuinely just a count of all the ballots cast?

Aaron said...

My question is: How doesw the third Party Candidate complicate matters. Your analysis seems to be fixated on a two person race, and not a three person race. Seeing that the third party candidate got a significant amount of the vote... could that make it harder for Franken?

justsomeguy said...

mrs b-

This is America, there is no real time indication of how many votes were cast, so of COURSE there can be cheating. But noone would cheat, would they?

The chances of FEWER votes in the recount is very low though.

Brunellus said...

Thanks for this and all your other posts, Nate. I'd just like to echo Sedi's suggestion about dumping Blogger in favour of a better system. (I'm afraid I can't suggest one, though – anyone else?)

Jason K. Carter said...

Malfunction "clustering" doesn't necessarily improve the trailing candidate's chances. This amounts to basically the same thing as systematic vote suppression. The result on the outcome really depends upon who's votes are suppressed. If the malfunction occurs in a white, middle class area, I would presume that counting the suppressed votes would favor Colman instead.

sarasotajoe said...

If the AP is estimating a .9% combined overvote/undervote, how can you include in the yellow region of likely scenarios a .9% correctable error rate? I understand that the AP may be mistaken, but they would have to be substantially off to get to a .9% correctable figure. Many of the errors will be uncorrectable.

If you move the yellow columns over one to the left by assuming the correctable error rate will fall between .10% and .75%, it starts to look considerably worse for Franken. Unless, as I think is likely, the horizontal yellow bar also moves down one row, since Franken may indeed be likely to win more than 50.25% of the errors. As long as the correctable error rate is at least .5% and the votes break for Franken by 51% or better, than he's in the race.

But I wouldn't bet on him getting there in the .9% column, but rather in the 51% row.

Jen said...

Thanks for the post on the recount. I was wondering what Franken's chances of prevailing were, espeially considering that MN has a pretty good voting system.

Dan said...

This is why there was a big "front page of the NY Times business section" article about you and 538.com today! That's too thorough for me to be able to digest on a Monday morning.

Hunter Creek HOA said...

Never have I been so captivated by an analysis that ends up leaving me clueless about the question at hand. Bravo -- from a fellow math geek

Ben Friesen said...

I would assume that if they clustered, they would cluster in more busy districts, which would mean that higher population (urban) areas would be more likely to be affected. A busy district is more likely to make errors.

In the end, I think this race will just end up in court, get thrown to the US Senate, then get thrown back to Minnesota, where we'll have a recount. That's what happened last time.

(I voted Franken. This is why IRV is coming to MN; we have strong support for third parties)

Jeffrey said...

Nate, I know you're a busy guy, but I would love to see this table updated throughout the course of the day as the MN vote totals inevitably get changed...

Davy said...

@bobcat

"Your sadistical analsis leaves me stunned."

I'm pretty sure your misspelling of statistical was unintentional but it was funny nonetheless.

wv: frable - board game for smurfs

Mrs B said...

Presumably there will be a lot of challenges to votes being acceptable, if the race is this close. How good are the legal teams on each side?

BeanoCook said...

Seriously, you are one biased muther Nate. How about commenting on the fact that 100% of the errors found to date, bringing the margin from +700 down to 221, have all favored Franken? Give me the odds of that one? I bet they are under 1%, considering it was not just one error, but several.

Also, nice try pretending education is no factor here. Do you really believe that people that make under $50,000 are less educated than those making over $100,000? Give me a break. Or that blacks are more educated on the whole than whites? You are joking right? Blacks have been fighting forever for school access and better schools and here you pretend they have the same education. It is clear only a low-class, low-educated voter would screw up their ballot that much, of course they all voted for Franken, idiots. Figures.

Mrs B said...

@justsomeguy
if you don't have record of how many votes have been cast, how do you know when you've counted them all?

Maybe you check the election commissioner's office? :)

holly said...

Congratulations on your NYT cover page! I've loved this site since it was launched, and am thrilled that you're getting some well-deserved attention.

Peter Davis said...

Consider Washington's 2004 race for governor.

Dino Rossi lead by 261 votes after the first count.

Two recounts later, Christine Gregiore won by 129 votes.

That's a swing of 390 votes, mostly from highly democratic King County, just as is proposed in this case.

Washington has 6,500,000 people; Minnesota has 5,200,000.

So... it is very possible. Shame on you for not mentioning this very close comparison :)

Brian N. said...

Well look who's on the front page of the NY Times website...

congrats, you deserve it.

Well, except for your polling predictions in Alaska... (j/k)

mccreedy said...

Nice article in the NYT. This stuff is great: Nate Savvy.

ab said...

Nate,

Two things -

Your analysis is impressive as always. I've been absolutely addicted to this site for the past 6 months, and this is my first time commenting. I wanted to say "thanks" for all the amazing work you've done, it really was a pleasure to read your insight into the polls.

Second, congratulations on appearing on the front page of nytimes.com, you've definitely earned it.

Rich Rifkin said...

Editor, please?

In each instance below, where this column used than it should have used then. Because of the frequency rate of this mistake is 77.394%, it is reasonable to conclude there is a 99.271% chance these were not simply typos, but rather mistakes in diction.

"If the Correctable Error Rate in fact falls somewhere in this range, than Franken's chances of winning a recount are not very strong."

"If, for instance, 25,000 votes or about 0.9 percent of the total are reclassified during the recount, than Franken's odds of winning are only about 7 percent."

"If this is the case, than about 51.0% of reclassified ballots (excluding those cast for third parties) are likely to be resolved in Franken's favor."

"If ballot tabulation errors are not independent of one another but instead are "clustered", than the odds for the trailing candidate to prevail in a recount may be higher..."

Voice of the Midwest said...

Nate...excellent explanation of the CER.

One assumption beyond the rate of CER that has to be considered, though, is the grouping of the errored ballots. It appears 68-70% of them are in Hennepin, St. Louis, and Ramsey county. These counties all went 63%+ for Obama and have baseline Democratic Party affiliation at +50%.

Beano's assertion that Nate is biased needs some tending. Coleman has actually BOTH gained and lost votes in the initial audit by the SoS and the county clerks. This is normal course certification work required by the SoS previous to a final certification of the election. What is different here is the spotlight and the closeness of the race. What we are seeing here are the laws of Minnesota election law being followed to the tee.

That certification audit continues today. Franken could gain or lose votes as the audit continues. The audit is also happening in the other races in the state that were or were not blow outs. This happens every election.

Attempting to muddy the water and saying cheating is gaining Franken votes is uniformed and calling Nate biased is an unfair cheapshot.

Jan said...

Congratulations on yourself, Nate... You certainly deserve all the accolades, compliments and much good fortune from all your (all-nighter) efforts. I am no longer suprised to see you on TV or front pages... You (and your staff) earned your spot at the top!

Kid G said...

Hey Nate,

My congratulations on making the NY Times cover. Well deserved; you make me have second thoughts on not majoring in econ.

homunq said...

Unfortunately, when results are so sensitive to assumptions, one bad piece of data spoils the lot. And you have one bad piece of data here: the number 25,000 which leads to 0.9%. Over here, "bitwise" starts out with a similar analysis, but then updates with a crucial fact: "I just found a page on the MN SOS site that lists the total number of ballots cast as 2919013. This means the total presidential undervote is currently 8802." There is no reason to expect the machine-based undercount to be any better for the presidential race than for the senate, while there are plenty of reasons to expect intentional undervotes to be higher for the senate. That means that the top end of what you call the CER should be .3%, not .9% - marked down somewhat for intentional and otherwise uncorrectable errors.

On the whole, I'd move the yellow square from (1,3;5,7) to (0,4;2,8) which (sadly) drops Franken's average percentage to about 10%. I'd regress that a hair towards 50% for clustered errors, and put Franken at somewhere between 10 and 20%.

(And the >4 votes I personally got for Franken by doing 140 calls of latino Obama phonebanking from Guatemala count for about .2% of a senator; if a senator's seat is worth tens of millions of dollars, they are worth tens of thousands of dollars.)

Angle said...

Wow. Just wow. Nate, your ability to explain all of this to mere mortals gives me joy. It's a gift. Thank you.

Voice of the Midwest said...

Nate:

By the way, congrats.

Kid G.: I minored in economics in college and it was a miserable experience to which I give Nate all of the respect in the world for mastering statistics. It was my Waterloo in college!

Political science was my major. Guys like Nate come up with the yummy stats that people like myself can look at in the end. Guys like Nate are the yeoman of the game.

VOTM

Michael said...

@Sarasota Joe- Good point. The Sen. undercount is actually 1.1% though. Cleary, it's pointless to include any higher correctable rates than that.

There are several other highly pertinent pieces of info available.

1. The POTUS undercount was 0.3%. People who got their vote counted there know how to operate the machines, at least when they don't try to change their votes. With a few caveats, that favors the low end of your correctable-vote parameter.

2. KOS published data showing a strong correlation between district F-C and Sen. undercount. Either that results from some specific errors more likely to be made by F voters (in which case the individual correlation is stronger than the district correlation) or it represents locally random errors (e.g. dusty-sensor urban machines. That means that if the correctable error rate were equal to the maximum 1.1% no values of your y-axis less than 54% (needed for the correlation) would be plausible!

So the set of plausible parameters is much narrower than what you have shown. The strong correlation of F-C with undercount suggests large values of your y-axis, and basically requires them in the case of high correctable undercount.

I think the odds are a bit better than what you suggest, given the strong constraints for these data.
/mbw

Kelly said...

Congrats on the NY Times front page...you ARE king. Keep going!!

aaron said...

This analysis is wrong.

I'm pretty confident that the overwhelming majority of spoiled ballots are in democratic strongholds. Minnesota has a large student population and same day registration. It also has a large democratic leaning, politically engaged somali immigrant community. I wouldn't put it past either of these groups to spoil the lion's share of ballots.

Your analysis assumes all things are equal. I'm not so sure they are. Franken will win.

Karen Desmond said...

sorry to be o/t but just read nate's profile in the NYT - way to go Nate.
Excellent!
ps. good article in Daily Kos about the possibility of John Kerry as SOS
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/10/10034/344/533/658485
Would open up another seat in Senate - for nate to factor into his senate 2010 analysis

Greg Siskind said...

Hi Nate - Great article in this morning's NY Times. I'm a lawyer and worked election protection last Tuesday. We advised a significant number of voters in my county to cast provisional ballots when they were initially turned away at the polls. In my urban county, most who cast provisional ballots were poor and working class African-Americans. The big problem for most was they moved from the address where they initially registered and they had not updated their drivers licenses. Even though they went to the right poll, they often went with insufficient evidence of their new residence. We told such voters to vote provisional ballots when they said they didn't have time to go home, get the right paperwork and then wait another hour and a half on line. People had jobs to get to. There have to be a lot of those kinds of ballots in Minnesota as well and I have to think many will count if the campaign has the resources to get these people to document their current residence. Have you factored in these votes in to your analysis?

sherifffruitfly said...

lol! I love modeling.

Wow - p(Franken wins) is EXTREMELY sensitive to changes in the CER.

Are you ever gonna do a post-mortem on how your Presidential model performed, especially as compared with others?

(Or did you already, and I missed it?)

RWD said...

Great analysis, but it's unfortunate that we don't really know the two major input parameters (CER and fraction of errors for each candidate). Also, it really should be run in some way considering the significant third party candidate in the race. That probably makes the math much more complicated...is there a trinomial distribution?

reelgeist said...

RE ANALYSIS

a) The AP article says that most of the issue that Nate mentions happened in certain places like St. Paul. These are heavily Democratic regions.This accounts for almost 18,000. I would love to know how the geographic distribution favors Franken, Nate?

b) They are also heavily populated regions. I would love to know how heavy population versus rural population influences error rates?

c) Someone above made the incorrect statement that all the changes subsequent to Tuesday have favored Franken. This person is either ignorant or lying. Either way, this is not correct. Having followed this since Tues., I have seen the numbers shift favor Coleman by slight amounts. But, overall it has favored Franken. This again makes sense because of the areas in which it occurs- namely heavily populated areas. Thus a lot more volumn of numbers to tabulate and account. In other words, if you were not acting as a partisan, you would realize these numbers regarding the accounting is a simple product of the normal process of human error.

Alastair Norcross said...

Coleman's lead is now down to 204, according to CNN.

Jeremy said...

And Franken's margin is now down from 221 this morning to 204...

homunq said...

Michael - I think you're letting your biases color your analysis. You point to two important facts - the .3% presidential undervotes and the correlation of the senatorial undervotes - and don't see the implication. Why would Senatorial undervotes correlate so smoothly and beautifully with F-C percentage? There are two models: either density is a common cause for both (mediated by machines for the undervotes), or F-C percentage causes the undervotes directly, as a percentage of those who prefer the DFL choose not to vote because of negative feelings about Franken. Only one of these models gives the strong, smooth correlation you can actually see in the data. So we can pretty strongly eliminate the possibility of a CER over 0.3%, and so the correlation of the 0.9% is explained by deliberate undervotes and does not tell us anything about the Franken percentage in CER undervotes.

I'd still think 51% is low, since the most "vulnerable" voter is NOT the first-time 18-year-old (who's been to school with NCLB and has spent a life on standardized testing - they know how to fill in bubbles), but the first-time older voter who was mobilized by Obama/McCain but not by Kerry/Bush. Such voters probably break Obama by a greater percentage than any of the populations Nate mentions; I think that 52% should be inside the "yellow box".

Still, the best corner for Franken in my box is only 32 or 64%. I see no plausible scenario in which he wins by more than the tiniest of margins - 100 votes or less - and if I had to guess the final margin I'd say about Coleman by 50. That is just incredibly close. If my internet hadn't been clogged on election day, I'd have skyped another 50 calls at least, and that would have been about 1.5 more votes, which could actually have swung this thing.

eve said...

Congrats on the NYT article. At the moment you are the top of the page, center picture and article online.

Am enjoying the continued analysis.

KWRegan said...

To supplement Voice of the Midwest's answer to Beano, and reply to questions about the Buhl oversight in earlier MN recount comment threads:

It appears that Buhl's 191-vote margin for Franken was counted last Wednesday, and maybe this is what got Franken from 700-odd behind to 500-odd behind. Then two(?) corrections in the 100s place got it near 300, with smaller fluctuations doing the rest. (Is there any page tracking the changes---?---which indeed have seen some upticks for Coleman, as well as at least one temporary removal of votes from the count, lowering both numbers.) Buhl also answers my own expressed note that if all the flux was due to correcting tabulation errors, then such a 500-vote swing to Franken seemed a-priori unlikely.

Nerd query: in averaging the rows and columns, should geometric means rather than arithmetical means be used? Does this make a difference, likewise if one integrates over a binomial distribution in both dimensions? Well, this probably would only amplify Nate's main point in the title: the odds are perfectly volatile, and we can't say we know much at all. Place yer bets!

WV trautsa: Yiddish alternative to lefse (and lutefisk).

Kid G said...

Voice of the Midwest said...

Nate:

By the way, congrats.

Kid G.: I minored in economics in college and it was a miserable experience to which I give Nate all of the respect in the world for mastering statistics. It was my Waterloo in college!

Political science was my major. Guys like Nate come up with the yummy stats that people like myself can look at in the end. Guys like Nate are the yeoman of the game.

VOTM


I took a couple of economics classes in college. I actually really enjoyed them, but it starts to get quite mathematical (like multivariable calculus level), and I just never had a good enough comfort level with the math to master the later courses. In retrospect, I should have tried harder at the math. What Nate is doing is very, very impressive from a scholarly standpoint. What makes it closer to art is his ability to tie the numbers to common sense explanations based on psychological and sociological factors. It may not be 100% accurate, but it ALWAYS gives food for thought.

homunq said...

Greg Siskind - were you in Minnesota? From what I've heard, same-day registration there meant no provisional ballots, can anybody speak to this?

nathan said...

The spread of results does not fit with prior conceptions. Recounts have been going on since forever ... Using the results of recounts instead of raw voting error estimates provides another sort of data on which to build models. If we look at recount results, I believe we would find that the results are a lot more concentrated than the table would lead us to believe.

Some key questions:
How often does a statewide recount result in an overturned election with a 220 vote spread?

How sensitive are the results to the type of voting? What is the type of distribution of the changes in votes? What kind of regression models are out there relating precinct demographics, election characteristics, and voting methodology to the distribution of precinct vote changes?

Acadia said...

Nate, this begs the question, what is the "safest" way to vote, i.e. the way that is the least likely to be lost or miscounted in the event of a re-count? In DC, I was given the option of paper or electronic and I chose paper. The electronic seemed like it could be corrupted or lost too easily. Are there any stats on this difference?
Thanks for your great work.

JSZ said...

homunq, I think you made a little mistake there. The 8802 listed at Kos apparently actually represent the difference between the total number of ballots cast and the number of votes for the presidential race. According to the Minnesota Secretary of State's website (http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/), 2919167 total votes have been cast (estimated), and there were 2910273 votes for President and 2885473 for the Senate. Therefore, 8894 voters (0,30%) did not vote for any presidential candidate and 33694 (1,15%) did not vote for any candidate for the Senate. Many probably did so intentionally, but these data do indicate, I think, that the CER may actually be a bit higher than what Nate suggested.

In addition, there may also have been ballots that were not counted at all, seeing as the Secretary of State's vote totals are still provisional. (Perhaps the scanners do not count ballots where all votes were cast as in Nate's second example.) But someone more familiar with Minnesota elections than me would be better able to answer this question.

Overall, I think Franken has a pretty decent chance to flip this seat.

Jim said...

Great analysis. Wanted to echo the question above on provisional ballots. I don't know what sort of #'s those constitute, but I would assume they would tilt slightly towards Franken and might tip this. Will take my answer 'off the air'...

cheers,
Jim

Maze said...

Like many a great artist, Mr. Silver, you're a "one name" star now. "Nate". Most of us would quote you throughout the election with "Nate says...". After the NY Times article today, everyone will. Congratulations. And thank you. We may not have been commenting, but hundreds of thousands of us were kept sane my your artistry.

vega said...

The most significant assumption that may be incorrect is that the margin going into the recount is 221 in favor of Coleman. The current process of official canvassing is not complete. In the recent past, the change in margin from the first unofficial totals to the official canvass in statewide races has been +2854 for Senator Klobuchar, +1375 for losing gubernatorial candidate Hatch, and +23,075 (!) for Attorney General Swanson.

For this year, the County Canvassing Board for Hennepin county has yet to report. It is supposed to report today. Hennepin County is approx. 1/4 of the state - it includes the city of Minneapolis and lots of suburbs.

Additional information that could be useful in predicting a recount is found in the reports that are done after every election to audit the voting machines. Essentially, a mini hand recount is done of selected precincts, and if there is less than 0.5% difference, the machines are ok. The detailed results of the 2006 audit are on the MN Secretary of State's website. They list each candidate by precinct and how many votes were gained or lost between the voting machine and the hand count.(For some reason, Hennepin county is not there.)

MotherHoose said...

Coleman's lead 204

Minnesota SOS
11/10/2008 9:30:26 AM

goAL!

Assmole elect said...

In instances where the blood of a munkee feetus was used to mark the box, would Frankenstein or Coolman have been low-counted?

armolin: assmole's retarded half-brother-in-law.

Andrew said...

@Rich Rifkin

Give the man a break.


He's a numbers machine, not a words machine!!!!

sims said...

Congrats on the love from the New York Times, Nate. All of you deserve it, you really nailed it.

homunq said...

JSZ: That is not a mistake, that's my whole argument. I am taking the presidential undervotes as mistaken undervotes, and the senate undervotes as mistaken + intentional undervotes. There is no reason to think that mistakes are more common in the senate, and plenty of reasons (both general importance and candidate-specific) to think that intentional undervotes are more common.

Good point about the completely uncounted ballots, though. They could be an X factor that would blow all of this analysis out of the water.

Assmole elect said...

andrew: silver is good with words and numbers -that's why we visit this site. I thought Rich was applying for an editing job with Nate.

Bryan said...

Oh look at me I'm on the front of the NYT

Rock over London, rock on Chicago

nateclarke4555 said...

How do they determine who an overvote goes to in a recount? If both candidates are checked, do they just toss the ballot out?

catalyzer said...

You wrote

Assume that minorities are 50% more likely than white voters to have undervoted the ballot ...
Alternatively, suppose that voters making $50,000 or less are 50% more likely than wealthier voters to have undervoted the ballot. In this case, 51.3% of reclassified ballots would go to Franken.

Why would you present these as alternatives? Admittedly, due to overlap one cant just add the two groups but that doesnt mean one has to choose. Shouldn't the real value be somewhere in between? I have neither the data nor the statistical chops to do the full analysis so let's split it down the middle and go for 51.8%.

Also, let's assume that not all voters under 50K are equally likely to mis-vote. E.g. assume those under 30K are even more likely to undervote and go for Franken by an even bigger margin. In that case, the 1.8% number may be reasonable even if minority status is ignored.

Looking real good for Franken....?

Thanks for the great work and congrats on the well-earned fame even though I selfishly wish 538 could have remained a club of the geek elite.

JSZ said...

My apologies then, homunq, I guess I should have thought a little further. Still, I think there may be some reason to assume that undervotes were more common for the Senate, as third-party candidate Dean Barkley also got a decent amount of vote. People may have a cast a vote for Barkley and changed it into a vote for either major-party candidate on second thought, and I guess this is more likely to happen in the Senate race than in the presidential one, which did not have an even marginally serious third-party candidate. If this further speculation of mine is correct, it would be good news for Franken, since people who would consider voting for Barkley seem to be more likely to vote for him than for Coleman.

Another Mike said...

Nate. How about commenting on the fact that 100% of the errors found to date, bringing the margin from +700 down to 221, have all favored Franken?

cite please or were you just pulling this out of your a@@?

wv: sinded--Jimmy Carter sinded when he looked upon Sarah Palin with lust.

billybear said...

Nate,
Great analysis. Is it posible that this type of scanner voting was chosen to intentionally undercount the demographics you mentioned?
Oh, and loved the article in the NY Times.
Is it safe to assume you are a State basketball fan?
Grady 40/40 ???

goatdan said...

@ beanocook -- You're mistaken. The day-on-day totals have trended toward Franken, however if you really closely followed the vote tallying, it moved in both directions at various times. I know that one time that I went to the SOS site, the difference had become 1200+. It has bounced all around.

As for a bias, while all the Repubs are out there running around and saying, "How could he be getting closer if we're just confirming data!" couldn't we also look at it from a different angle and say "Why was Franken underreported to begin with?"

I think that it is just as likely if not moreso that the Republicans purposely misreported votes the first time than the Democrats manufactured votes to get them closer to winning. It *especially* doesn't make sense to state that these were made up since Franken is *still losing*. You could make the claim if he was ahead by 38 or something, but not if he is still down.

Michael said...

@homunq: You're certainly right that the correlation may be purely a function of intentional undervotes, in which case Coleman wins. If it's a function of slightly worse machine function in urban districts, Franken wins narrowly.

We agree that the low POTUS undercount rate means that there are not many extra F votes due to vulnerable voters having trouble operating the machines in simple binary choices, and that in the low-CER sector the correlation cannot all come from machine error, so maybe none of it does. It's possible that, as someone suggested, many Sen. undercounts came from people changing their minds with the 3d party, in which case there would be a substantial correlation with individual votes and Franken would win by more.


If we sat down with about 10k votes from high-F and high-C precincts, we'd know the answer in a few hours.No such luck.


BTW, for everybody else, here are the data we're trying to understand:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/112816/046/283/656709

/mbw

Voice of the Midwest said...

Coleman's loss of margin is not an abnormal thing or an anomaly worthy of conspiracy talk.

EVERY recount is preceded by an audit of the counties as the first step in certification.

I get the feeling people who are not Franken fans believe there is nepharious intent by elections officials here. There isn't. This audit and reporting of counties and their precincts occur EVERY election.

Numbers shink or expand in blowouts, as well.

If Franken picked up 25,000 votes, you have a point. But drips and drabs are likely going to put Franken over the top before there is a recount, then be ready:

The RNC is going to send in 100 attorneys to challenge every ballot, let alone every required practice under recount law in MN.

Assmole elect said...

Ok this is boring, let's have another presidential election: that would be great news!! for nate silver and john mCCAin!!! and assmole the great!!

repilklu: Rep. Ilklu -the new star of the Free Alaska Party. (of eskimo heritage, methinks).

moondancer said...

Fascinating. I pray for a Franken victory for two reasons: 1) he is honest and Coleman is not 2) there is a very high chance Falafel Boy's head will explode live on TV.

barbara said...

What about the inherant error rate in any counting process. I have rad that given the small margin of about 221 votes against more that 2 mil cast ANY recount, done multiple times will give a different result simply becasue the inherant error rate i counting 2 million ballots is considerable greater than 221.

Voice of the Midwest said...

Folks:

They are only done with about 25% of all counties and precincts in the state on the certification audit.

This is an audit. It assures the numbers are absolutely correct for each precinct before there is a consideration of contested ballots or undervotes.

It will be done by the end of this week for all election in the state of Minnesota this year. Once the audit is done, the elections are certified or confirmed for official recount.

Simple as that. Let it happen and for those who don't like Al Franken or Norm Coleman or Dean Barkley, get over it. This is how you run a democracy.

Imagine if Florida were actually counted.

davidteich said...

In the 2004 Washington gubernatorial election, Republican Dino Rossi led in the initial count by 261 votes. By the time the hand recount was finished, Democrat Christine Gregoire was up 129 and was declared the winner.

There's precedent for this. There's reason for hope.

Coleman's lead is now down from 221 to 204. 204 is not that much. Gregoire was down 261, and she won. Franken may well pull this thing off.

Go Stuart Smalley!

Andy JS said...

CNN, Fox News, CBS, and Daily Kos all have Coleman's margin down to 204 votes.

However, what the networks are reporting is not necessarily correct. For example, they are still reporting old results from Hillsborough County, Florida. The updated results are available on the Hillsborough County website.

Mike said...

NATE: I want to see an update to this post on Nov. 18, when the final pre-recount numbers are determined. Franken might even be ahead by then.

Larry Parker said...

Nate,

You are too brilliant to be wasting your talent on a website or two. You need to be working somewhere in the Obama administration, where you can do some good for the American people.

Seriously, I know you could use your analytical and mathematical ability to find cost savings or SOMETHING in the US government that could be changed for the better after your analysis.

Namlhots said...

Excellent analysis of the peculiarities of optical scan systems. I led a similar recount effort for the 2001 School Committee race in Cambridge, MA (3 candidates separated by 6 votes out of 17,666 cast). The Franken-Coleman margin is a lot closer.

The candidate who gets the most eyes on the ballots will be at an advantage. And, most importantly, this recount underscores the need for a paper record of voter's ballots. Such a recount would be impossible on many electronic machines.

goatdan said...

By the way, kudos to Nate for doing this. It's what I have been paying the MOST attention to since, well, since Nate announced that Obama was the next President.

While this is all just conjecture, one thing that I felt that even at 700ish votes really played into Franken's favor was that his candidacy is the type of one which pulls out new types of voters. The type that hasn't voted before, but remembers Franken from SNL and thought he was funny, so why not vote for him now? This group of people have two things going for Franken:

1) They are first time voters, or 'not-regular' voters who don't use the system as much, so they were probably more likely to make errors.
2) They may not have brought what they needed for registering to vote, so I expect a considerable amount had to cast provisional ballots.

Unless something was going on in Minnesota that isn't readily apparent, first time voters broke for Obama at a much higher rate than McCain. Now, you can't assume that people broke for the rest of the party at the same rate, but I would in this case due to the high profile of Franken. If that occurred, and there were 20,000 provisional ballots cast (which is an estimate that I think I read somewhere), even if only 50% of these could be counted, I would expect a break toward Franken of at least 60/40, which would put him over the little edge he is at now.

I think that Coleman's "I won!! iwoniwoniwon!!!" declaration on Tuesday night was an attempt to get the media to believe him and report it as such, much like Bush's "mandate", since he realized that a recount would favor his opponent. If the media and the public were 'outraged' by the cost of a recount, it could be stopped before it was started. Since that fell on deaf ears (and I think Franken's response was huge in making that happen), I expect this will drag out for a while, but I do think in the end, Franken will be the Senator-elect.

WJM said...

(they are almost certainly the most reliable fully auditable voting system).

More than little pieces of paper with an X hand-marked in a little circle?

Andy JS said...

Yesterday, Coleman's margin was 221 votes. The drop to 204 votes seems to have involved Coleman's vote dropping by 2, Franken's vote increasing by 15, and Barkley's vote increasing by 4. So the changes since yesterday haven't involved a straightforward shift in votes. Interesting.

David said...

This analysis is invalid. You failed to consider the not insignificant third party, which completely invalidates this analysis. But you make other unfounded assumptions. One example, you cite exit polls a week after debunking them. Just because the CER average is 0.9% it doesn't follow that MN will be near that. You have no knowledge of where errors come from, so can not infer anything. This is just opinion wrapped in an invalid mathematical analysis.

Be careful, fame is fleeting, don't let it get to your head. You are better than this.

Oh, and yes you need to ditch blogger.com.

donelson said...

Nate Silver & Co - AHEAD OF THE GAME !

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/business/media/10silver.html

"Finding Fame With a Prescient Call for Obama"


WELL DONE, Nate!

William

dcweatherboy77 said...

Wow good for you Nate. Yup down to 304. And I might just say that ur cute as well ;)

judas_priest said...

People tend to forget that the election night count has no real official standing and is done for the benfit of the media and the public. It is done under great time pressure by workers who are undoubtedly fatigued. Of course they are going to make mistakes.

But the certified vote totals are in fact the official initial count.

BTW, regarding the comment about the first Gregoire-Rossi election, I seem to recall that one of the major aspects of the hand-recount that finally gave the election to Gregoire was the finding of some ballots which had not been counted election night.

The chance of something like this having occurred in the Franken-Coleman race is non-zero but unknown.

If it did occcur it is more likely that the impact of such a find would favor Franken if it makes any difference at all. This is because its impact is partially dependent on the number of votes involved, which is apt to be higher in bigger election districts, which tend to be urban and favor Franken. (Or so I speculate)

wv=thypec

1. The beginning of a Quaker personal trainer's comment to a client; or

2. An early stage in foreplay

Dan Myers said...

I read in the Star Tribune last week that most of the undervotes came on ballots where Obama performed very well.

This either means that Franken will pick up some votes there or there were a bunch of Obama Democrats that chose not to vote in the Senate race out of protest.

Now, if Franken ends up pulling ahead in this thing, I wonder if Coleman will waive his right to a recount. He really screwed he pooch last week when he declared his little victory, and said that if he were behind like Franken, he would waive the recount to save the taxpayers... Normy should have just shut his mouth. Now, if Franken pulls ahead, Coleman is gonna look like a jack ass when he bitches about a recount. Not to mention, he'll be going back on his word.

MotherHoose said...

Minnesota SOS
11/10/2008 10:25:22 AM

Coleman +209 ;{


goAL!

Todd said...

great post - this is the type of stuff I love. I remember writing simulation programs to show what sort of change in odds just going from 50.5% house effect to 50.6% house effect for a casino and such. Or the old 'drunken sailor' problem - given a drunken sailor who will randomly take one step towards base and one step towards a cliff - what are the chances of him making it home given how close or far he starts away from each - etc etc. Good times - and this type of stuff brings it all back. It's what you get when you combine a math major and computer science major, heh.

as for this ...
barbara said...
What about the inherant error rate in any counting process. ...


I would say done right, there doesn't have to be any error. Break the ballots into smaller subsections, say 100 or 500 or 1000, then have 3 groups of 3 people count each of the smaller groups, keeping track of the results. If the 3 people in each group don't agree, they're counted until they do agree. If the 3 groups don't agree, they're recounted. The totals are entered into 3 different spreadsheet/database/etc by 3 different people each. The numbers are checked to makes sure all values that should match do match, and if they don't, they are flagged, checked, and fixed. Once the groups of ballots are counted correctly, and the data is entered correctly, then 3 systems total everything up and spit out the numbers - which better match (:

In the above the number '3' is the minimum I'd want to use. 3 in a group I think would work well, but you'd want to break groups up and randomize them to keep them from getting lazy in the counts. The number of groups could be much greater of course, and each subsection of ballots could be checked by more groups as time allows.

My prediction, *if* things are allowed to progress in the recount (which is never a done deal - amazing how often Republicans do not want to count all the votes, hmmm) then Al will pull it off, my guess as to the margin is....

316

Andy JS said...

This is a post I did on a previous thread. I though I might post it again:

Regarding the Minnesota Senate Race, in the vast majority of the 87 counties in the state there was very little difference between the number of votes cast in the Presidential election and the Senate election.

For example, in Sherburne County the totals were:
Presidential election - 44,857
Senate election - 44,659

But over the whole state there is a difference of 17,661 votes in the currently published results; (Presidential - 2,900,759; Senate - 2,883,098).

7 counties in MN had a difference of more than 500 votes, (greater numbers of presidential voters):

1. Hennepin - 4,985 (+0.76%)
2. Ramsey - 2,720 (+0.99%)
3. Dakota - 993 (+0.44%)
4. Olmsted - 893 (+1.18%)
5. Anoka - 729 (+0.40%)
6. Washington - 629 (+0.46%)
7. Winona - 609 (+2.24%)

Percentages in brackets represent the increase in voting from senate to presidential. The average for the state was +0.61%, so some of those counties listed actually had a smaller than average increase for the state - with their large populations causing the higher numbers.

A few other counties had a percentage difference of more than 1%, although the absolute numbers involved were less than 500 votes:

Houston County - 180 (+1.69%)
Lake of the Woods County - 42 (+1.86%)
Pennington County - 68 (+1.01%)
Rock County - 55 (+1.12%)

I'm not trying to prove anything with these figures, since people in those counties might have just been less interested in voting in the senate election than the presidential election. I thought I'd post the figures anyway for people to take a look at.

goatdan said...

@ dan myers -- I think Coleman *had* to make that declaration then with the hope that the media would pick up on it and declare him the victor. I think that he is well aware that a recount does him no favors, especially if he is ahead.

And if Franken does squeak ahead, of course Coleman won't waive his right to a recount under the banner of FRAUD! and then he will talk about how it is clear that the state is against him, so he will have to have his own lawyers involved.

What fun, this thing called politics.

momo said...

The law in Minnesota is very clear. The tallies from each precinct will be completed and then certified by the Canvassing Board, at which point they will become official.
Then there WILL be an official recount, as mandated by law when the vote difference is so close. Sec. of State, Mark Ritchie has explained this process multiple times, and there is no mystery about it. Paper ballots will be handcounted in each precinct, and votes where the intent of the voter is clear (ie: circled or checked instead of fill in the oval) will be counted (that's the law) with representatives from each campaign present and able to challenge any votes deemed too ambiguous. These will then be sealed and adjudicated by the Canvassing Board, which will announce the results of the recount. This process has already been tested in the state, and it works. Right now, the Coleman campaign is trying to muddy the waters of public opinion, but the process itself is about as clear and fair as you can imagine. It will take the time it takes, but it will be deliberate, open, and fair.

eve said...

This is my favorite kind of thread -- lots of discussion of the numbers along with speculation about the demographics.

I don't know enough stat to discuss the points being made by I really enjoy reading them. Thanks.

Miranda said...

So what you're saying is....we don't know?

Doug said...

Minnesotan who has also worked as an election judge in my precinct for the last two Presidential elections. This should not be considered an "official statement" since the rest of the time I'm just a programmer who is not employed by a state or federal agency.

Minnesota has no provisional ballots. We do same day registration, and the ballot given to a same day registrant is no different and processed in no different manner than anyone else's ballot.

See also: http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/maps/info.php?ID=11&state=45

As to Nate's statement that In Minnesota, the vast majority of counties have such precinct scanning systems, but they may be applied inconsistently -- it appears that in most precincts, for instance, the machines were programmed to alert the voter to an overvote, but not to an undervote. that is absolutely correct. At least for my precinct the scanner did not beep at an undervote and force the voter to confirm that they intentionally undervoted. It only beeped when there was an overvote and we then asked the voter if they wanted a fresh new ballot to try again.

At my precinct the judges rotate through the various stations. When I was assigned to the scanner I would say the highest office overvoted was a judicial office, I never saw something as high as senate. (the software is set up to show the highest office overvoted in cases where more than one over vote occurs)

When I was working at the ballot able and giving instructions I was careful to point out that the scanner was set up to not beep for undervotes, so there was a serious danger that your vote would not be counted if you didn't fill in the oval properly. "Better too much ink than too little."

BenjaminL said...

"Vulnerable voters"...

That's a nice, soothing, euphemistic way of putting it...

scdavis0 said...

MN DOES NOT HAVE PROVISIONAL BALLOTS

Mrs B said...

sounds to me that the people who know what they're talking about think we just have to wait - grrr, nothing I hate more.

homunq said...

@vega - interesting numbers indeed on previous vote shifts in the revalidation stage (now). Still, I think there is good reason to believe that the larger errors have probably been caught by now. That would leave the smaller errors - which, so far, add up to a gross of somewhere over 100 and a net of about 80-some for Franken. So if you add these to the pot of errors, and estimate that they're more than 50% done with revalidation now, this is a marginal effect - 50 net votes or so, which shifts most of the percentages in Nate's table by under 10%.

But it does give me an excuse to revise my guess for the final total. I said Coleman+50 before; now I'll say Coleman+15. I'd love to be proven wrong (Franken win), and for pure entertainment am hoping for a single digit margin; I guess that the probability of either of those is over 10%.

Cugel said...

Nate: Your statistical analysis fails because it assumes a uniform statewide distribution of uncounted ballots ("correctable ballots").

It's true that such a uniform number exists, but 1) we don't know what it is, and 2) what really matters is WHERE the most uncounted ballots are from!

It doesn't matter if there are only 8,000 uncounted ballots if they are all from Minneapolis-St. Paul, which Franken won by 15%!

That's a DEMOCRATIC region where any random sample of ballots will yield 50-36% Franken lead. The majority of Franken's strength was in two counties: Hennepin and Ramsey where he won by a combined 15% and garnered some 470,000 votes.

On the other hand if there is a large amount of uncounted ballots from rural counties, then Coleman will do well.

It all depends on the distribution by county.

Thus, your entire analysis is attempting to whistle in the dark. You don't KNOW where the uncounted ballots are coming from, thus, there's no way to analyze the overall probability of Franken getting a significant amount of additional votes.

Sorry, but it's all GIGO.

jk said...

on the topic of correctable errors - not all voters are "he" nor are all candidates ;P

Aratina said...

Wow Nate, congratulations on your front page story in the NY Times! What a relief you have been to us during this campaign. I'm sure you have tons of new supporters. Keep up the good work!

It is little pieces like this that tantalize us with the possibilities. You have made poll watching fun and non-partisan while giving it the scientific and artistic credibility that it deserved.

Cugel said...

People are confused because they are forgetting that whatever the result, THIS WILL ONLY BE STAGE ONE OF THE RECOUNT! And this manual re-count WILL yield a different result from the machine count, not merely from the "undercounted" ballots, but among ones that will ultimately be determined to have been incorrectly counted by the machine.

As Momo points out, once the results are certified:

"Paper ballots will be hand-counted in each precinct, and votes where the intent of the voter is clear (ie: circled or checked instead of fill in the oval) will be counted (that's the law) with representatives from each campaign present and able to challenge any votes deemed too ambiguous. These will then be sealed and adjudicated by the Canvassing Board, which will announce the results of the recount."

SO, the "undervote" won't be the only changes in the ultimate vote totals.

In the end, there will be a hand count of all the paper ballots in front of county officials and representatives of both campaigns.

Inevitably, the result from hand counting the ballots WILL be different than any machine count. There is an un-reducible error rate from any machine count.

WV: "Nesse" - name for the Loch-Ness Monster. Chances of Republicans winning the next election = to chances of Nesse being spotted in Scotland.

DanP said...

Nate,

Beautiful analysis. Obviously, you've gotten some rest.

I will be looking forward to the Franken recount drama.

Now, if you can just get back to some eventual analysis of how the cell-phone-only group influenced the polling vs. final vote.

That may take a while, but should be really interesting.

Grace Kelly said...

Minnesota is one of the best systems because we start with a paper ballot and we can always return to counting the paper ballot. With the audit system in place, we have a change of catching cluster of machine rigged reading errors. If the audit has a high enough error rate, a manual recount would be triggered at various levels.

In every case, we always, always have the ballots to go back to.

To be accurate, we need patience.

Juris said...

Re: "correctible errors," the online NYT article fortunately omits an error in the printed article. The one in print (and original one on line as well) referred to Nate's having accurately predicted that the White Sox would win 90 games in 2007.

Actually, he accurately predicted that they would win 72 games (the year after the Sox had won the World Series) -- and took enormous heat from the Chicago fans and media, until his prediction proved to be exactly correct.

dcweatherboy77 said...

Here's the MN Board of Election page btw...http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/ElecRslts.asp?M=S&R=all&P=A&Races=''

224 now.

I think Franken wins 278 eventually after recount.

David R said...

I watched the MN senate election very close on election eve. Being in Hawaii, I was able to stick with it until 3 am Minnesota time. I continuously followed the counties that had not reported 100%. The ones with the smallest percentages reported were Hennepin and St. Louis, which have some of the largest populations and the biggest percentages for Franken. Extrapolating this data to 100% reported at each iteration showed that Franken was continuously gaining on Coleman. Ultimately, Franken should have had a lead of ~2,000+ votes. But when the 100% reported was reached, Coleman was ahead by more than 700. Soemthing is fishy here. Does anyone have a good explanation?

dcweatherboy77 said...

doh 204 I mean!

max843 said...

Nice article in the Times - congratulations!

I love your mind. And yes, you are correct in stating that the electorate does not follow up on the actions of the Congress and the candidate after the election. Keep it up!

EdgedInBlue said...

My algebra prof was right...there is a need for polynomials (god forbid!).

Thanks for the analysis and the semi-iffy reassurance LOL!

You never cease to amaze me 'oh-king-of-the-maths'. Thank you.

Nicholas Warino said...

Anyone else having severe poll withdrawal? I got so used to having Zogby at night; waking up and checking Rasmussen, Daily Kos, Hotline; Gallup a little later; then ABC; and of course, dozens of state races.

Mrs B said...

bet Zogby hasn't had the front of the NY Times.......

Robb said...

Thought on underballoting:

I was working as an officer of election on last Tuesday (tho, not in Minnesota, in another state that used optical scan machines for some of the ballots--voters had a choice, in other words), and I worked for the busiest part of the day at the optical scan machine, assisting voters with their casting of the ballot (feeding it into the machine). If their machines are anything like the ones we were using, overballoting kicks the ballot back out, and voters need to get a new ballot to feed into the machine--in other words, there should be no overballoting to worry about in a recount if this was the case in MN. Also, voters who cast ballots that would be 'underballoted' were, in my experience (we don't do privacy sheets unless people want them, and having someone by the machine helps ensure that voters actually cast a ballot that will get counted), primarily Democratic ticket voters who were that strange and compelling combination: first-time older voters (the first time I gleaned from conversations at the machine). A few were not native speakers of English, and a few were simply older citizens, predominantly non-white (so if demographics correlate, they'd be Democratic ticket voters). Those voters who were older and voting with the optical scan for the first time, but had voted regularly, were often, but not always, just fine in getting their ballot straight--they were also largely voting Republican tickets (I think there was a correlation between trust of the touch-screen option and trust of 'paper trail' as represented by the optical scan machine).

I could be wrong, but this would lead me to be relatively optimistic (in the most cautious but safe-feeling sense of the word) about the extent to which those ballots that get re-classified would be leaning Democratic. I don't know that I'd be quite AS optimistic about the number that will ultimately be re-classified however.

Craig said...

First of all, there are a number of people saying that MN doesn't have provisional ballots because of same-day registration, but there have been multiple newspaper reports that there are provisional ballots out there because people showed up at the wrong precinct or didn't have sufficient ID to register that day. Take that for what it's worth.

I voted in MN, and the woman in front of me had her ballot rejected by the machine because of an overvote. The election offical explained the problem to here, and she just wanted to say "close enough" and leave. They were pretty insistant that she needed to redo the entire ballot instead. She was in a hurry and said she didn't have time to do that. Instead she wanted to come back to do it later. Well, she had already been marked as having gotten a ballot, so the official had to explain to her that it wasn't quite that simple.

I left before she got her issue resolved, so I don't know what really happened. I wouldn't be surprised if she was allowed to submit that ballot as is, if she redid the ballot, if she was allowed to come back to redo her ballot, or she just gave up and didn't vote. The first of those options was what she wanted to do and should have been allowable, but the judge was at least strongly discouraging that. I wish I would have stayed to see how that ended, or knew enough to tell her that she could cast that ballot as is.

Dan said...

Nate, what about significant third-party vote in Minnesota (18% to Dean Barkley)? It seems to me that this could significantly affect your analysis, to Franken's detriment.

Suppose that 18% of the Correctable Errors go to Barkley, as in the overall vote (maybe you have reason to suspect otherwise?).

These votes will certainly not result in Barkley winning, however they *will* reduce the total number of votes that either franken or Coleman or Franken could potentially pick up in a recount. Assuming a Correctable Error Rate of 0.9, as you suggest, there will be about 25,000 votes reclassified. However, about 18% of these will go to Barkley, reducing the "two-candidate correctable error rate" to 0.738.

A quick glance at your table shows that this will significantly reduce the odds of Franken winning in a recount. The magnitude of the effect depends, of course, on the unknown number of Correctable Error votes and what fraction of those votes are for Franken.

justsomeguy said...

...bet Zogby hasn't had the biz front page in Hagerstown Daily Record.

sfergus483 said...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111772/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Favorability.aspx

You can still get your daily Gallup fix - Obama's favorability this AM is 72-23, almost the exact inverse of Bush's at the moment/

homunq said...

@robb: great observations. Of course, I say that because it squares precisely with my previously-stated prejudice: the biggest group of miscounted votes should be older, first-time voters, who should skew remarkably democratic.

Note that Nate's 51% numbers are from assuming that group X is 1.5 times more likely to misvote than the general population. I'd say that a group could easily be 3 or 4 times more likely to misvote - this would still be a low percentage of misvotes in the group in question.

First-time older voters are rarer than minorities or low-income voters by probably a factor of 5, their skew is probably 3 times as big, and they are possibly twice as likely to misvote as Nate's estimate. So if minorities contribute 1% to Franken, first-time older voters should give another 1.2% So: 5000 misvotes at 52.2% = 4.4% of 5000 = 220 votes +/- 70. (error is square root of misvotes) The back of this envelope says TIE.

Jill said...

Al Franken, the Harvard math major, must "enjoy" all of this!!!

qqqqqqqqq said...

Whoever wins, I'm hoping the margin is exactly 1 vote. If that happens, we'll probably see more people voting in 2 years.

And does anyone know the law there in the unlikely case of a tie after the recount? I know in some places they flip a coin.

Kennyb said...

Coleman +2. Up to 206 now.

http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/ElecRslts.asp?M=S&R=all&P=A&Races=''

John said...

@ Dave: So Nate prints an analysis that says Franken's chances run roughly from 0% to 100%, depending.

And you loudly declaim that he's got it all wrong.

Interesting.

(I loved this post, BTW, whose most interesting strength, to me, is the fact that Nate explicitly outlines his assumptions -- as usual -- and the reasons behind them. Yes, a lot of it is guesswork, but he gives everyone the ammunition to debate it with him.)

Bob X said...

What are the odds that, regardless of how the recount goes, the case will remain tied up in court past January? I would call it "safe", well over 95%

CA Hawkeye said...

Wow, great analysis Nate.

I guess we know how you spent your Sunday. Under my analysis, with baseball season over it appears there is an approximately 90% probability you are not a football fan.

Keep up the good work.

justsomeguy said...

Another analysis showing only the racists and the gays did not come out for Obama in greater numbers than they did for Kerry in 2004.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/demographic_groups_and_votes_2.php

qqqqqqqqq said...

Looking at thye SoS results web page, I see 2340 write in votes for "WRITE-IN", in addition to some votes for write-in candidates. There are about 10k of these in the presidential race as well. Does anyone know whatthese are? Are these misread by the machine, or do some people actually vote for "WRITE-IN"?

Michael said...

As a fellow Stata geek, I downloaded the precinct level data last Friday and calculated the undervote for each precinct as presidential minus senate votes (an underestimate). I then allocated the undervote to each candidate based on their precinct results thus far. This analysis led to an estimate of a 1535 net vote gain for Franken (11,587 Franken - 10,052 Coleman).

Of course, many of these undervotes may not end up yielding an actual usable vote. But it would only take 15% of them to be usable to shift the lead to Franken.

This analysis has many limitations, but does provide an indication of the advantage enjoyed by Franken due to the places where the undervotes occurred.

justsomeguy said...

The place for your Obama fix, updated all day with a real schedule of "that one's" schedule.


http://www.politico.com/politico44/

homunq said...

qqqqqq: I suspect that the "WRITE-IN" are for non-qualified write-in candidates (ie, Mickey Mouse). For write-in votes to count in most places, the candidate has to pre-qualify.

homunq said...

Of course, the question is, how many of the "WRITE-IN" votes were actually for Stuart Smalley.

jonathan said...

I think we're in the wrong field here: this isn't statistics, it's physics.

The chance of Franken winning the recount is either 100% or zero, right?

Until we open the box, we just can't tell whether the cat's still with us.

Jason K. said...

The deficit is down to 204!

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1131360&srvc=2008campnews&position=5

Silvia said...

Fantastic post. Nate rules!

Michael said...

@Michael (one of the other ones)
Yes, but the problem is this. Are the extra undercounts in the high-F precincts correctable technical errors or deliberate skipping of this race by DFL voters? (See the discussion with homunq above.)Since most of the undercounts are almost certainly deliberate (there weren't nearly as many undercounts for POTUS), we can be sure that many DFL'ers skipped this race. Then the correlation between F vote and undercount rate provides essentially no evidence on the F-C CER rate. For that you have to fall back on prior knowledge, as Nate did above. However, he was rather conservative in that analysis, and I believe he omitted 6600 ballots which the machines couldn't handle at all. I think the odds are decent, especially because of those other ballots, but the type of analysis you're doing isn't going to be nearly reliable. Sorry./mbw

oct said...

I'd love to see the science on taking 3 million ballots and feeding the same ballots through 100 different opitical scan machines.

Determine the optical scan error rate for 100 of the same exact machine. That is something to consider.

In GA, a bad ballot actually caused overvoting on the optical scan machine since the unfilled ovals had too heavy of a line marking the oval itself.


A lot can go wrong and 200 votes is a small gap when 3,000,000 cast votes.

coolstar said...

In general, a fairly good post by Nate. Two errors that seem obvious: he's grossly over-estimated the correctable error rate as he seems to have confused errors that are really correctable, such as circling a name but not bubbling in the oval, and truly spoiled ballots and true non-votes. My best estimate is that 7000 or fewer votes will actually be CORRECTED in the recount, which makes Franken's odds of winning very low.
Secondly, Nate has mishandled true "malfunctions": there's no reason to think that correlated malfunctions are more likely to favor one candidate over another.
Finally, a simpler way of stating the analysis is simply that MORE of the ballots that are ultimately correctable are likely to have come from precincts that Franken won handily, as most of the counties that he won, he won big and these were the largest counties in the state.

mac_1103 said...

Looking at thye SoS results web page, I see 2340 write in votes for "WRITE-IN", in addition to some votes for write-in candidates. There are about 10k of these in the presidential race as well. Does anyone know whatthese are? Are these misread by the machine, or do some people actually vote for "WRITE-IN"?

If you want to cast a write-in vote on the machines used in my precinct, you first press the screen next to the box marked "write-in", then type in a name on a keypad attached to the machine, and finally press a button next to the keypad. I'm sure a lot of people cast blank write-in votes, either intentionally or inadvertently.

1sunnyday said...

Nate, I think you've left out a very significant known quantity from your calculations.

You suggest that the voting preferences of the 25,000 undervote is not known. In fact, breakdown of the undervote is a known quantity, one that strongly suggests a very favorable Franken lean.

An AP analysis has shown that a large majority of the undervote has comee from precincts that voted for Obama.

From the article:
-
"Three counties -- Hennepin, Ramsey and St. Louis -- account for 10,540 votes in the dropoff. Each saw Obama win with 63 percent or more.
Ballots that showed a presidential vote but no Senate vote are called the "undervote." Statewide, more than 18,000 of those ballots came from counties won by Obama with more than half the vote. About 6,100 were in counties won by Republican John McCain with at least 50 percent.

In 13 counties, the two ran about even; in all, those counties combined for 707 ballots without a Senate preference.

The largest of the pro-McCain counties were Anoka, where 1,189 ballots didn't choose a Senate candidate, and Stearns, where 681 did not."

-

source:
http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/34116044.html?elr=KArksUUUU

justsomeguy said...

coolstar-

What? You miss the fact that even if your exceedingly low estimate of 7000 votes were the "correctable" ones that is more than enough to swing the election if anything approaching the correctalbe error rate in favors Franken. You can count, right?

I agree on correlated malfunctions, except you seem to ignore the data from Ohio before the election that showed the error rate on machines of this type was much higher after heavier use (dirty optics) and thus the error rate would be expected to be higher in cities where there are more voters per machine (and where Franken voters live).

Finally, don't mees with Nate.

oct said...

206 / 3 200 000 is 0.006% difference.

I bet the error rate in the optical scan machine is not better than 0.006%. So the quality of the equipment is another factor to consider.

Analysis of NH Optical Scan Equip


In brief, the analysis data supports the conclusion that not only are machine counts of votes much more likely to result in error, but the machine errors are of a significantly larger magnitude and variance than those observed for hand counting.

When the much higher frequency of machine-counted errors is coupled with the statistically disturbing magnitude of the machine errors, it is not unreasonable to conclude that the use of optical scan machines to count votes has robbed many citizens of New Hampshire of their Right to Vote and their Right to have their Vote counted accurately.

Our analysis of the state's data and election practices suggest that there are numerous steps that the government of New Hampshire can take to bolster the integrity of its election process - whether votes are counted by hand or by machine. Although hand-counting of votes is clearly not yet a perfected art, in keeping alive the practice of hand-counting, New Hampshire has served its citizens well. Beyond this, the state should not subject its People to further enduring electronic voting machines that grossly fail to meet even the minimal accuracy standards mandated by federal law.

coolstar said...

No need to get nasty, justsomeguy. But I'll bet you dinner right now that my estimate of the votes that actually get CORRECTED (in the Senate race) is closer than yours! 7000 IS enough to change the election (READ for a change, I never said it wasn't) but a much higher fraction of those would have to go to Franken than in MOST of Nate's matrix.
You misunderstand the nature of "malfunctions" correlated or otherwise, apparently. Just bc the error rate MIGHT be higher in higher pop. counties doesn't mean that the CORRECTABLE error rate in favor of Franken will be. Most correctable votes will come not from machine errors, but from a) mis-marked ballots and b) newly found ballots that somehow were lost (given the setup in MN, that's not going to be very many, as opposed to Washington in 2004, where it swung the race for the democrat) My estimate is that Franken will lose by somewhere between 50-100 votes, after the recount. Let's hear YOURS!

coolstar said...

Finally, as to Nate: he can be quite good (or even better), but he's hardly perfect. For one glaring example, he didn't quote errors in his model's final predictions for the prez race: that's totally UNACCEPTABLE and would be rejected by any journal referee on the planet. It's also unexplainable, as it should have been very easy given his methods.

Beth from Wisconsin said...

Nate:

You deserve a pulitzer for your political reporting. Please keep up the site.

Michael said...

This is about the most compelling explanation of probabilistic statistics in practical use that I have ever seen. Bravo! :-D

obsessed said...

The deficit is down to 204!

that should be quite significant if I'm reading this post correctly.

Greg Siskind said...

Homunq asked where I'm located. I'm in Tennessee. I've done some research and the other posters who have mentioned that there are no provisional ballots in Minnesota are correct. Here's a survey of rules across the country - http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=52 .

Paul said...

44% is pretty darn close to 50-50 and in any case we only get to do the experiment one time so statistics are out the window -- I'd say you're probably going to nail it no matter how this thing turns out.

cshawngreen said...

There is evidence that Franken did better amongst first time voters. Check the exit poll on the Strib site. Franken won first time voters 52/34.

Sheldon said...

Does Nate move markets? Check out the current Intrade numbers on this one.

Rick said...

Based on my exit poll it should have read like this...Franken 1,206,480-Coleman 1,194,447-Berkley 430,763 so in the final re-count Franken should pull this out. IMHO

homunq said...

Hennepin county just refused a Franken request to review 460 disqualified absentee ballots, saying they could be dealt with in the recount. This is a new number to throw into the mix. If there are 460 in Hennepin, and such ballots are evenly distributed, that would indicate about 2000 statewide. I'd suspect somewhere around 75% end up being valid, and of course there's the Barkley ones. So that is over 1000 more votes. If they are biased, it is probably on a different pattern than the machine rejects; lets assume that they are unbiased but slightly correlated, so that the stdev on these guys is 60. Combined with the stdev of 80 or so on the 6400 misvoted ballots (that's a guess based on 8900 presidential undervotes) that puts the stdev up to 100 votes total: a 5% chance for Franken before counting bias.

Increasing the variance is good news for... people who don't waste their time trying to read these particular tea leaves, because it pushes the probability towards 50% anyway.

thrutheseasons said...

Well done.

Possessive form of matrix singular: matrix's
Possessive form of matrix plural: matrices' or matrixes'-- both are fine

You must have just accidentally mixed up the differences between than and then

homunq said...

cshawngreen - good find with the exit poll. If 18-29 is 12%, then 18-22 (first eligible presidential election) is around 4%. This age group goes 35-48 for Franken. First time voters are 9% and 34-52. If 18-22 is like 18-29, then the 5% who are older first-time voters are splitting about 33-55 for Franken; two-way, that's 38-62. If these are 3 times as likely as other voters to correctibly misvote, then they are 14% of misvotes, or 9% extra who are not cancelled out by everyone else, 7.5% without Barkley. 7.5% of the 25-point margin they have is just under 2 points of margin, or 51/49. Say, per Nate, that minority margin is also two points, low-income is also two point, and in the 6 points there are 2 of overlap: 4 point margin.

Again, PERFECT TIE +/- 100.

Jered said...

Congrats on your write-up in the NYT

bigredact said...

we had a ton of judges, many running unopposed in MN. I cna't imagine anyone voting for all of the races. So the warning for an undervote HAD to be shut off nearly everywhere.

David said...

It's "an entire matrix's," not "and entire matrices'." Sheesh, what kind of a math dork are you?

homunq said...

OK. Last comment, putting it all together.

We have reason to believe (presidential undervotes) that the superficial undervote rate is around 9,000. We have reason to believe (Hennepin county disqualified absentees) that the disqualified absentee rate statewide is around 2,000. We have reason to believe (2006 audit reclassified 53 votes of 94,073 in the 2006 senate race) that there are about 1,500 ballots that have been miscounted. This puts an absolute ceiling of about 12,500 reclassifiable votes, a CER of about .4%. Honestly, it is probably significantly lower.

To win under these conditions, Franken needs to take at least 51%, probably more like 52% of these votes, and to score a safe win he needs 53 or 54%. These latter numbers begin to stretch credulity; thus, by all accounts, Coleman has at least real chance, and quite possibly the better chance.

Scott said...

Autumn hues linger
Brilliant yellow glows to show
All the known unknowns

Ben Wiles said...

The CER in Minnesota might be lower than is thought otherwise, given the opportunity to correct a flawed ballot offered by the voting machine itself. The machines used in Minnesota automatically check for over- and under-votes and ask the voter to either verify that his ballot is accurate or try again on a fresh piece of paper.

Of course, it's hard to make anything idiot-proof, given that idiots are so resourceful.

mikebsoma said...

Nate,
Not to nitpick, but I think you mean probability instead of odds for all these tables and the title of your piece......under binomial odds would p/(1-p)

Regardless, very insightful analysis .......Can I have job as your assistant? I love baseball, politics, and stats too.....jk. Keep up the good work! Your doing some pretty cool stuff here.

Erik Nilsson said...

Precinct pre-scan is generally never set up to catch undervotes. That is, the voter does not get their ballot kicked back at them for not voting a contest. This is for two reasons:
1. In the US, it is generally allowed to not vote on a contest. So an undervote is legitimate.
2. Even if undervotes were flagged as a warning, it would slow down the pre-scan function and affect the orderly operation of the polling place.

Erik Nilsson said...

Nate, I generally agree with your analysis. However, I would come down on the side that Franken's chances of winning a recount are not minuscule. However, I don't know enough about the details of Minnesota's voting procedures to predict confidently.

You address most of the sources of uncertainty I can think of. The most important is almost certainly the level of experience with voting in Minnesota with Franken voters vs. Coleman voters. Franken voters are probably less experienced voters on average, so a recount is more likely to move towards Franken than towards Coleman.

One variable you didn't consider is differences in election practice between precincts favoring Coleman vs. precincts favoring Franken. Franken's votes disproportionately come from urban areas, where there are large, busy polling places. Coleman's votes disproportionately the reverse, of course. I've observed that, in some recounts of marksense (bubble) paper ballots, urban counties tend to proportionately gain more votes than rural counties. It may be that this is due to different experience levels in voters, but it may also be caused by a different voting environment. A busy, urban polling place may lead to a slightly higher machine error rate, due to more distractions, longer waits and difficulties in parking leading to time pressure on the voter, and so on. In an election this close, even slight differences in these effects can result in vote total changes much larger than the difference between the candidates.

Of course, the consensus is this will end up in court, but it seems likely to me that the candidate leading after the hand recount is likely to prevail in court.

Incidentally, recounts of this type are very substantial undertakings. Often, a warehouse of some kind has to be rented just to keep everything organized, allow observers adequate room, and so on.

Carol in St. Paul said...

So, in other words, things look better for Franken, which I would have expected for my candidate for Senator here in Minnesota. This is a progressive state. That Coleman "won" over Mondale after Wellstone was killed in 2002 was HIGHLY suspect. Coleman is a Rove hand-picked puppet as is Governor Pawlenty and Michelle Bachmann. These people don't "fit in" with Minnesota's profile of politicians. My hunch? The machines were programmed by ES&S for Coleman to "win" and that is why the GOP is so frantic to cast suspicion or stop the process. Our Secretary of State Mark Ritchie is an honest politician and I worked on his campaign for election myself in order to rid our state of a highly partisan GOP hack, former SOS Mary Kiffmeyer. I trust that Ritchie will conduct this recount fairly. I just want to know if the machines are counting our votes accurately or not and this recount will be a good test of that. The ES&S 100 optiscans used here have a history of problems (most recently in Michigan) and they are the very machines that were demonstrated to be so easily undetectably reprogrammed via the memory cards by Finnish expert Harri Hursti in Florida in Bev Harris's "Hacking Democracy" documentary. I pray that our chain of custody laws are being tightly followed around handling and storing the ballots and the memory cards and flash cards; that we are ensuring the security of the Microsoft Access-based GEMS databases that register the totals and are so easily hacked; and that our electronic voter registration databases have been safeguarded so that they have not been in any way compromised. I and other election integrity activists in this state worked extensively with the SOS and the state legislature on revising our election laws, as well as the new auditing/recount laws that are now being put to the test. It is my opinion that the SOS and the legislature did not take the vulnerability of Republican-owned and operated electronic machines into full account, although Ritchie says he is a friend of Mark Crispin Miller and I and others have personally badgered him about the insecurity of voting on ES&S and Diebold machines. I know that Minnesota elected Al Franken. We are sick of Norm Coleman--he is a crook and was never a popular mayor let alone senator.

joelr said...

If the scanners beeped for undervotes, they'd be beeping all the frickin' time; there's a whole scad of downballot races -- including downballot uncontested races, where there's only a named candidate and a write-in line -- and just about nobody I know bothers to vote for Ole Ericson vs. Write-in for Second Assistant Third District Water Commissioner and such.

I'll be stunned if there's a consistent pattern to the what I'm going to call, since I like making up acronyms, just like our host, the PRUBUV -- the Possibly Relevant Up Ballot Under Vote -- where, say, somebody votes for Obama or McCain by filling in the circle, but votes for Franken or Coleman by checking the box or circling the name. With, probably, 6000 rejected ballots, some of those will be CSUBM (Consistently Screwed Up Ballot Marking) problems, where some moron who couldn't read the directions consistently circled their candidate, at all levels, rather than filling in the bubble.

Those votes will -- and by MN law, must -- be counted, and there's where the Franken supporters do have their best chance of pulling this out: VSPWCRSDs (Very Stupid People Who Can't Read Simple Directions) are more likely to vote for Franken than for Coleman.

So, y'all may win this. Honestly.

Joe said...

Wow, what an impressive analysis! However it does demonstrate why some people call the field of statistics "sadistics" instead.

Several ways to interpret the results, but I hope Franken wins given the House vote on the Recovery Act last week.

I am not hopeful that we'll see any GOP help in solving the nation's mess they got us into.

信次 said...

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平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

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平平 said...

^^ very nice

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徵信 said...

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cy said...

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酒店上班請找艾葳 said...

艾葳酒店經紀公司提供專業的酒店經紀, 飯局小姐,領檯人員,領台,傳播妹,或者想要到台北酒店林森北路酒店,私人招待所,或者八大行業酒店PT,酒店公關,酒店兼職,想去酒店上班, 日式酒店,制服酒店,ktv酒店,禮服店,整天穿得水水漂漂的禮服酒店,鋼琴酒吧酒店領檯,酒店小姐,公關小姐??,還是想去制服店上班小姐,水水們如果想要擁有打工工作、晚上兼差工作兼差打工假日兼職兼職工作學生兼差兼差打工兼差日領工作晚上兼差工作酒店工作酒店上班酒店打工兼職兼差兼差工作酒店上班等,想了解酒店相關工作特種行業內容,想找打工假日兼職兼差打工、或晚班兼職想擁有快速賺錢又有保障的工作嗎???又可以現領請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!

艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司工作環境高雅時尚,無業績壓力,無脫秀無喝酒壓力,高層次會員制客源,工作輕鬆,可日領現領
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已,對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有!艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪,不需擔心!只提供最優質的酒店打工,酒店上班,酒店打工環境、上班條件給水水們。

水水們妳有缺現金、有卡債缺錢卡奴的煩腦嗎?想到日本留學日本打工嗎?妳是工讀生找工作??想要擁有高時薪又輕鬆的夜間兼職工作,打工機會和,假日打工,兼職工作日領假日打工的機會嗎??想實現夢想卻又缺錢沒錢嗎!??整天還在煩腦如何賺錢有什麼賺錢方法,和賺錢最快方法!?,想要打工,日領工作,短期打工,兼差工作,打工兼差工作嗎!?,
請加入我們艾葳酒店經紀公司工作單純輕鬆”高時薪”又可日領徵想要當傳播妹,上班小姐,酒店兼差,酒店兼職,歡迎學生打工,!!!
加入我們實現夢想就從現在開始^__^

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ass said...

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ass said...

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ass said...

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