I haven't commented extensively on L'Affire Lieberman, in part because I personally feel somewhat agnostic about it and in part because I think the writing has been on the wall for some time that Democrats would decide to keep him in their caucus and let him retain his chairmanship of the Homeland Security Committee.
One thing's for certain, though: when a vote that looked as though it was going to be fairly close originally instead passed the caucus 42-13, something happened to whip that result into shape, and that something was Barack Obama. True the caucus might have voted to retain Lieberman on its own -- or it might not have. But Obama's signal last week to extend Lieberman a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card was the immediate cause of that decision. Conversely, Obama could probably have engineered the opposite result if he'd wanted. (Nor is this to dispute the characterization of the Senate Democrats -- and particularly the Majority Leader -- as being somewhat weak-willed, but the practical implication of that is very different when you have a Democrat rather than a Republican in the White House.)
In our interview with him yesterday, Howard Dean dropped some very strong hints about what Obama is up to. We should expect him to be as methodical and meticulous about spending his political capital as he was about spending his advertising dollars and his ground game resources during the campaign. One can debate whether the Democratic caucus was more likely to achieve certain progressive policy outcomes with or without Lieberman in its ranks, but to Obama's mind, kicking him out would have been a giving both the Washington press corps and the Republicans a sort of shiny red apple, creating a huge distraction and requiring a significant expenditure of political capital.
So how you feel about Lieberman should ultimately hinge on how you feel about Obama, and how you feel about Obama should ultimately hinge on your opinion about whether he is liable to put that political capital to good use. If you believe Dean's implication that Obama is going to use that political capital to pass both significant climate change reform and significant health care reform within the first two years of his presidency, you probably ought to give him the benefit of the doubt. If, on the other hand, you see Obama as someone more concerned with the accumulation of power toward ambiguous, uncertain, or incorrect ends, this is liable to be the first of a long line of displeasing decisions, and you had better get used to pushing back against the White House.
11.19.2008
Dear Democrats: If You Must Blame, Blame Obama
by Nate Silver @ 11:26 AM...see also agenda, lieberman, obama, political capital, senate
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211 comments
Obama doesn't play the blame game. He wants to build consensus and get his legislation through,
definitely top 5
I think it was terrifically smart on all counts to keep Lieberman. Obama scores mega-magnanimity points *and* retains in the fold a functional 90% Democrat who can be used for a filibuster-proof majority.
@Nate: typo-- "the writing has been on the all for...."
Writing on the Wall, not All
Emotionally, I was completely in favor of crushing Lieberman slowly, deliberately, and thoroughly, but I intellectually I have realized that Obama made the right call. This way he not only denies the press some gossip and the Republicans a vote, but now Lieberman owes him.
That's smart politics.
I think it's Ambinder who has a quote up from a poker player on Obama's hand and Joe's chips.
I'd love to hear Sean's take on it.
For me, health care is what's at stake followed by advances for gay and lesbian folk. If he keeps his powder dry and uses his political will to get those things done, then who cares about Lieberman.
There is something to remember about l'affaire Lieberman. The Netroots are attacking Lieberman for his perfidy in siding with the GOP in the election. However, Lieberman was elected as an Independent, and he sided with them two years ago to give them the majority, crucially important in that it allowed them to set the agenda and chair and form majorities on committees. I realize that couldn't be undone if he were to break ranks, but he stayed a part of the caucus throughout, and it was difficult for him; Iraq is very, very important to him, because he sees the US military presence in the Middle East as the means to defend Israel. He never wavered despite vehement demands from Democrats that we leave Iraq; he supported McCain because he wanted us to stay there ad infinitum. He gave the Senate Dems a majority, and broke ranks in the election for a cause. The latter may have been a good reason to take away his chairmanship, but the former had to be taken into consideration.
I believe that it was a good idea to not remove Lieberman from the Democratic Caucus. I think that even if he is not the most faithful Democrat, removing him would cause more turmoil than it is worth. Yes, he was not faithful this election, but he traditionally has voted with Democrats quite often in the Senate. I think it's important to try and keep as many people on board as possible with Obama's presidency.
This is spot on. Obama made the call and everyone else got out of the way. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for Lieberman to do something to really piss people off. Days? Weeks? Months?
--Dan
Right wing radio was praying for Obama to push for a removal of Lieberman. It gives them something to talk about. They would rather ignore their misfortunes and in-fighting and talk about our in-fighting.
It's what they do...argue about petty things.
Fortunately, we now have a leader that doesn't act like a high school'er and realizes the problems at hand are much greater than any of this petty confrontation.
The Lieberman pass reminds me of Ford's pardon of Nixon, in a small, partisan way. The sooner it becomes old news, the sooner the election and the litany of unpleasant sound bites are behind Obama and us. Kind of like the above-the-fold interview with Spitzer's call girl -- seems like a million years ago, who cares? The problems we have to deal with are so horrendous, and unfolding and worsening every day that Lieberman is a spat on the schoolyard. I just hope he is as grateful as he sounded, and will come through in a pinch. Either way, I suspect that unless Obama campaigns for him next time around, the voters will keep him at home and send us someone else we like better.
I also recall a few times during the primaries when some Obama diehards were upset that he was not more progressive in a position here or there. The pundits remindeded over and over again that Obama is a consensus builder, and has no interest in taking impossible positions. so I think we have to give the man a chance to redefine partisanship, and work in the arena of the possible, not the ideal.
Nate said "So how you feel about Lieberman should ultimately hinge on how you feel about Obama, and how you feel about Obama should ultimately hinge on your opinion about whether he is liable to put that political capital to good use."
This is the crux of the matter. As many of us here would love to "throw da bum" out as a show of something, President-Elect Obama has bigger fish to fry. Similarly, we might "want" Missouri and a 377-EV landslide and we might "want" a 60-seat fillibuster-proof senate. At the end of the day, letting Joe twist in the wind for about a week and then letting him THINK he won a small victory is about as much satisfaction as can be gained. The real prize is having won the presidential election AND having a QUALIFIED president.
The "should he stay or should he go" dance makes for great sunday talk show fodder and internet ramblings, but GOVERNING is the task at hand. Lest we forget the 1994 mid-term elections and the wonderful Contract On America (sic).
An interesting thoughtful perspective Nate. Thanks.
WV - ichease: an eye infection when you look at anything on fox news.
Not sure what the netroots expected... Why would Obama CHOOSE to have an intraparty fight right now? To enforce discipline? There's no big threat of other pols following Lieberman's path.
I don't know if Obama holds grudges or not and frankly I don't care. He is going to have to fight for all the votes in Senate to get his legislation passed. Seems to me that he made a cold hard headed calculation. Buying Lieberman's vote with the chairmanship was the cheapest and easiest way to get a vote. Lieberman knows that his political future is at Obama's pleasure. There is an old expression "the sword is most powerful when it is in its sheath".
Sun Tzu said a wise general only fights when he knows he is going to win.
As far as the Netroots uprising. This story is being pushed by probably the same goons pushing the PUMA stories.
Sure, there are people who's initial reaction are a defensive trying to defend their man Obama since Lieberman crossed the line.
But, I feel this is the minority and once the bigger picture is realized, IE., Healcare Reform, Energy Reform, tax reform and the other big issues Obama is looking to repair in this Nation, they, at least the rational ones, back off their defensive stance, and realize there are some serious issues that need to be addressed and it's going to take every single vote to get these things done.
Before we waste our anger at Senate committee appointments, we need to revel in the success of mobilizing the youth vote, and how Lieberman-style capitulation will soon go the way of single-back offense and the highly-paid pinch hitter.
I fail to see what the removal of Lieberman would have accomplished beyond "getting even". As fun as that may seem, Lieberman basically votes along Democratic party lines with one exception...Iraq, and that is no longer an argument Lieberman can win, not with President Obama, a Democratic majority in Congress, and an Iraqi government that is moving to end our involvement.
To strip Lieberman of all leadership posts would have caused him to leave the Democratic caucus and possibly to caucus with Republicans. We have just won a 58th Senate seat, Minnesota is well on the way to being 59, and with Georgia, 60 is possible, but not without Lieberman. Even if we don't get there, the closer we DO get to 60, the easier we'll have in getting our agenda items passed. We have the chance for a truly progressive government, and it's not worth throwing that away to simply be vindictive.
As much as I dislike him and as much as I'd love to see him expelled from the Senate altogether during the next election, he's there now, there's nothing we can do about that, and he's going to be more helpful as a friend than as a foe. I believe Obama is smart to recognize that, and to recognize also how powerful a message it sends when we embrace our enemies.
We've spent 8 years where if you don't agree with the administration, you were marginalized (you were either with us or against us), and we are as divided now as we have been as a nation at any time since the Civil War. Obama is putting his money where his mouth is...when he said we were not a collection of red states and blue states, but one United States...it is that kind of message that helped get him elected. We can't now expect him to simultaneously live up to his message and also seek vengeance agasint his enemies.
Then I declare Obama = FAIL.
Anything he wants to do, he will do without my help. I'm done, I'm going to focus on preparing for the coming climate apocalypse. What a joke.
People have made Lieberman out to be a ridiculous bogeyman in terms of his political beliefs. He isn't, he's just an extremely hawkish Democrat (albeit a treacherous one who chose friendship over principle in the campaign). On social issues, he's a reliable liberal vote in a congress that hasn't seen much of a shift to the left on things like gay rights, the death penalty, civil rights, etc.
We may yet see old Joe redeem himself once the spotlight is taken off foreign policy and onto the dire economic situation (although I should hope that Obama will be bold enough in foreign policy to piss him off!)
Hey Nate
Weren't you guys coming to Minnesota for the recount? We started today! Get in gear!
The no-drama process and outcome on this were healthy hallmarks of the Obama campaign. It is nice to see the consistent approach post-election.
It might feel good to punish Lieberman now, but there is nothing but transient satisfaction to be gained.
This is a huge credit in the Lieberman favor bank that the Obama team will redeem when the time is right.
I had no problem with Lieberman supporting his friend McCain. Where he crossed the line was trashing Obama. But if Obama's cool with that, fine.
Not sure he'll still be there in 2011...
I wonder if the Reid-Obama tag team on Lieberman was an intentional "good cop"-"bad cop" routine or if Reid was talking out of church when he smacked Lieberman down. Though the thought of Reid playing bad cop makes me giggle, it will be interesting to see if this is a precedent.
Typo, incidentally: L'Affaire Lieberman
wv: resur - mais oui, bien sûr!
Kathyflake: I think it's Ambinder who has a quote up from a poker player on Obama's hand and Joe's chips.
I'd love to hear Sean's take on it.
Ug, poker analogies in politics are as bad as food metaphors in sports writing (I clearly miss FJM already).
Lets face it, even though the Dems came down easy on Lieberman he is done. Neither party trusts a traitor like him. He will become more and more marginal over time.
As a registered Dem in Connecticut, I'm still angry at Lieberman for HIS petty power play in 2006 when he lost the Democratic nomination to Ned Lamont. My anger at Lieberman doesn't stem from his supporting McCain; an independent should be able to support whoever he really supports for President, my gosh. My anger at Lieberman stems from (a) stupid policy priorities, with an aggressive foreign policy impulse (and I'm Jewish, too, and there are more important issues than Israel. like human decency) and (b) the way he treated Ned Lamont in 2006 and crushed the Dem's chances for election.
I wanted Lieberman out because he can't be trusted. When Lamont beat him in the primary, he courted the Republicans and ran as an independent on name recognition. That's kind of slimy.
He got in by promising to support the Democratic nominee in 2008 and help get a Democratic majority in congress. He, as we know, did the exact opposite. That's dishonest.
The committee he chairs was supposed to have done oversight on the Bush administration's handling of Katrina and other matters. His counterpart in the House held hearings and investigated but Joe held no hearings, investigated nothing. He failed do his job.
I hope the Democrats got some IOU's signed in blood by Lieberman for keeping his chairmanship because he's a slimy, dishonest failure who cannot be trusted.
The way this whole episode played out on the liberal blogosphere is the only reason I fear for the future of the long-term liberal majority. If there is a pro-Nader resurgence in the party as a result of Obama and party's reconciliation attempts, I will weep profusely. In the end, we can not get so greedy with avarice as to lose the goodwill of the overall populace. Just as the hard right terrorist-fearing hatemongers motivated liberals to go to the polls and provided fodder for leftwing radio during the campaign, the same thing would have happened on the other side if Lieberman were removed from his chair. In the end, pragmatism and moderation are the best way to retain political capital, because the PR backlash resulting from not observing these two principles is always potent. The best way to survive and modestly prosper in this political climate is by not making news. Witness the non-pick of Hillary in late August. Everyone thought Obama did the risky thing by not picking America's sweetheart, and he proved the opposite was true. From that point forward, the onus was on the right to destroy Obama and only Obama, except he didn't have enough baggage for that to be possible. In the same way, he is minimizing baggage in the eyes of independents and the right. That will surely help him when it really becomes important. Count me in. Things seem to be going just fine in my eyes, and will continue to unless keeping Lieberman means not getting out of Iraq, which I doubt is the case.
@Nate: typo-- "the writing has been on the all for...."
Writing on the Wall, not All
Nate had it right---we're talking with W. out of the picture.
;-> It's also evidence that Obama can count past 57.
there was a great picture and write up on BagNewsNotes here.
Basics is that Lieberman is a weak person, not worth battling over. Story over, more important things to deal with. Check out the picture at least.
Lieberman is like Polonius from Hamlet. He tries to play the role of a wise man but displays little, if any, wisdom. That said, it is not worth upsetting Obama's political applecart over him.
woohoo!!! Daschle is HHS Secretary!!!
If Obama knows what he's doing, Lieberman now "owes him a favor," Godfather-style.
I hope he knows what he's doing. Lieberman's a weasel.
marqpdx:
Thanks, that was a great link.
Dean avoided the question and most of the stories I've read about the Lieberman situation have skimmed over it as well. LIEBERMAN WAS NEVER GOING TO GET KICKED OUT OF THE CAUCUS. That was for sure. No time for intra-party squabbling and all that.
The issue was do you give him a consequence with real teeth - i.e. remove him from his top chairmanship. There was plenty of reason to do this ON TOP OF his behavior and comments during the campaign -- the fact that he didn't mount a single investigation of anything during his tenure as chair (compare to Waxman, who chairs the equivalent House Committee, who was all over everything). Dean (and I love the good Dr) didn't have an answer for that one.
People need to stop saying "well, they shouldn't have kicked him out of the caucus." They're right - that was never on the table. But they should have stripped him of the chairmanship of that committee, for his poor stewardship of it AND his campaign behavior (speaking at the opposing party's convention, for God's sake!).
After this crappy election, something to rub in the faces of all you libs. JOEMENTUM!!!
IF you can't even stand up to fake the fake democrat party, mcconnel is going to eat your lunch.
Agree with you thoroughly. This is right in character with what he promised to do, namely reduce partisanship. Were we listening?
This morning listening to NPR talking about potential signals to Iran I realized that this move with Lieberman, and with McCain, also signals to countries like Iran and North Korea that he's willing to start over. He's made a statement about himself, not just about Joe Lieberman.
jaegs is right: Homeland Security is the last place you want Lieberman because on that issue he is a functional Republican. Better if they had given him another (equally prestigious even) chairmanship instead, one where he is on board with Democratic policy. Joe threatened to bolt the caucus but that was probably a bluff: the GOP has nothing to offer him, and if the Purity trolls are in charge there is no way they're going to like Joe.
Nate's point is interesting, but I think there's a third option: that Obama means well but is making the wrong choice. We'll see. One might argue that Lieberman now owes Obama big, but Joe has already shown that that doesn't seem to mean much to him-- his campaigning for McCain after Obama campaigned for Joe shows a lack of loyalty.
thank you for writing what I've been trying to express badly in comments on dailykos.
I disagree, Nate.
I can like Obama and hope he changes things like Health Care and Energy policy,
AND I can disagree with both his position and the Senate Dem's position on Lieberman. There is no contradiction.
Beyond the prima-facia lack of contradiction, let me point out that Senate Dems could have very easily played bad cop to Obama's good cop. And should have.
Obama is a better person than I am. He's calmer and more forgiving to name two ways. But that doesn't change the fact that the people in charge of Homeland Security should not be people who see threats coming from those of us who oppose the War in Iraq and support diplomacy as a cornerstone of our foreign policy.
The Daschle choice is laving me scratching my head. Why is he really qualified for it? I can understan Clinton for SOS and Holder for AG, but this one is confusing.
Ultimately, the netroots will be responsible for removing Joe Lieberman, just like they have some responsibility for putting Obama in place. We don't build political capital because we often act like a mob, but we sure remember. And come 2012, Joe Lieberman will face some very strong headwinds to his re-election. And I wonder how hard Obama will campaign for him this time...
Whilst I still personally think Lieberman should have lost a level of privelige for his election actions, there are certainly political advantages to extending a hamd of friendship to Lieberman. Firstly its an extension of the all fiends together message, and makes a crude accusation of partisanship against Obama. Secondly Liebermna kind of owes Obama now. He is not so much in a position to criticise Obama, or he might suddenly find himself without a chairmanship.
I don't know if its good or bad that Obama has such a grip over at least parts of the Democratic caucus, but at least for now Obama has a certain amount of political capital that he can work with. Hopefully he won't overstretch as Bush did, and will welcome debate.
Why Daschle? Getting universal health care passed is going to require an incredible legislative effort. Daschle. The stars are really lined up for major health care reform -- the last time it happened was when LBJ crushed Goldwater in 1964 and carried strong Dem majorities into Congress, which passed Medicare (and also Voting Rights Act). But it will still take a lot of wheeling and dealing, and Daschle knows Congress like the back of his hand.
And you've got this incredible lobby to deal with -- big pharma, big insurance, the AMA -- though with come strategic effort business (small and big) will probably line up in favor of 'socializing' medical costs in order to reduce the costs to individual businesses.
Getting major environmental legislation will probably be easier, if for no other reason that it's likely to be tied with a massive public works program which in our current economic crisis very few Congressmen will be able to resisst.
Well put... I was somewhat tired of hearing about how this was really a good government issue and not about retribution. Yes, Lieberman didn't do the job well, but no one would be pushing for his ouster on those grounds if he didn't support McCain. I don't think it was purely about retribution either, since a punishment can serve purposes other than retribution. But it was punitive, so if the goals of the punishment (getting him in line with the caucus, discouraging similar defections) can be achieved in other ways then it's not a big loss. I'm not convinced those aims will be achieved by forgiving Lieberman, but I trust Obama's judgment, not because he always does what I would do, but because he has been consistently right throughout. I detest Lieberman, and it's not just that I wanted retribution, but I also don't trust him. Hopefully Obama will be proven right again and Lieberman will be more effective as a Homeland Security chair. I know his personal views are less than encouraging on this stuff, but if his behavior changes that's all that matters.
I was happy with the amnesty extended to Liberman. But, Joe had better not go to Georgia to campaign with his buddy McCain for Saxby Chambliss now!
I did feel that getting Lieberman out of caucus was a waste on all fronts, though I would have liked to see him lose his current chairmanship.
That said, even that would have been poor use of political capital for Obama, and overall, I would have just preferred he stayed out of that fray, and let the caucus make up its mind independently.
There is another way to remove Lieberman from the Homeland Security Committee. Remove Homeland Security.
The Department is still a Frankenstein monster of unrelated parts. The whole point to complaints about Homeland Silliness is it has never done its job and Lieberman's failure to do oversight has been a major enabler.
So return the parts to their original agencies and dissolve the Department as a cost cutting measure. No Department, no Committee.
some said..."After this crappy election, something to rub in the faces of all you libs. JOEMENTUM!!!"
LOL!!! You do know that other than the war, Lieberman is quite liberal on social issues? Health care, choice, climate change, energy. Either you win the most sarcastic or most pathetic post of the day..by a mile! :-)
The point of getting rid of Lieberman was not revenge; it was to remove someone unqualified from a post where he can and will do everything in his power to obstruct Obama's agenda. I don't understand the people who think Obama has some kind of leverage over Lieberman now. He's shown repeatedly that he can't be trusted, and it's next to impossible to strip him of his chairmanship during the Congress. What can be done to him? He's untouchable. And he's shown that he can spit in the Dems eye and suffer no consequences, which makes the party look weak.
I don't think avoiding controversy is worth the price of keeping Lieberman for two years. It would have lasted a news cycle or two and then blown over the next time Obama announced a Cabinet appointment. By Inauguration Day, it would have been long forgotten. All Obama has shown, if he is behind this, is that he can be bucked and insulted with absolute impunity. Believe me, the Republicans have noticed.
Nor is Lieberman committed to support cloture just because he's in our caucus. Cloture votes rarely follow party line, so keeping him around just to reach 60 is largely meaningless.
I'm very worried that this vote is a sign that all the change talk is just talk, and that when push comes to shove, Obama and the Dems will stand up for the status quo just like they stood up for Lieberman.
Nate=, your analysis fails if you believe, as I do, that Obama would have more political captial had he stayed out of it and had the caucus demonstrated some discipline by playing musical chairs with chairmanships, shifting Lieberman to a portfolio where he's actually aligned with Democrats.
Okdem mirrors my thoughts exactly - how shrewd a move it would be to leave Lieberman in charge of the Homeland Security Committee only to later marginalize or remove completely either the committee or the whole department.
However, better still to keep him on board as long as possible - one more vote in the Senate is one less vote you have to buy from the other side of the floor.
A little history...
For the first two years of the Clinton Administration the Administration feuded with Alabama Democratic Senator Richard Shelby in an effort to "whip" him into line. IIRC, among many other things he was pointedly not invited to the White House for the photo op with the Alabama football team that won the 1992 National Championship. He remained a Democrat (while usually voting with the Republicans and publicly criticizing numerous Clinton initiatives) just so long as the Democrats were in the majority. He's been a Republican Senator since 11/9/94.
I'd think the new President went a long way toward guaranteeing that Joe Lieberman will not be his Richard Shelby with this move.
Of course we'll have to push back against the White House. As a very smart American pointed out: "power never concedes anything without a demand and it never will." A very smart American now in the driver's seat expects us to push back and will calibrate his actions accordingly. Having elected the guy, we owe him the courtesy of keeping on his back.
aha, a thread without any Ziegler sock puppets!
I was all for dumping Lieberman. But what do I know? I think probably Obama a) is in a better position than me to know what he needs to do and b)has better judgement than me.
Let's see how it works out.
If Lieberman uses his chairmanship to advance a neo-conservative foreign policy agenda, or to obstruct Obama's foriegn policy initiatives, he can be removed at any time by the Democratic leadership in the Senate.
Obama knows this, the Senate Dems know this, and Lieberman knows this.
If he continues to be a problem then he WILL be dealt with accordingly.
I said as soon as it became clear that Lieberman would get a pass: it grates me how forgiving Obama could be after the nasty tenor of Lieberman's actions during the campaign; but, I have strong confidence in Obama's skills as a politician and in the coincidence of my and his political agenda. Given that, although I would personally love to kick Lieberman in the shins, I trust that Obama made the right decision, and cooler heads prevailed.
The decision was deeply disappointing. But in the scheme of things, the matter is really not that important.
I know some are saying it's about the "principle." My experience has been when someone says it's about the "principle" it's usually about something insignificant.
Why leave Traitor Joe in the caucus?
Simple. 60.
Should Franken actually pull out a win in MN, and the Democrats win the run-off in GA, you get to 60 with the turncoat.
Without him, you sit at 59.
Sure, a filibuster could be broken with a few GOP members as it is, but its so much easier to not even have to make that call.
And you have to remember that the remaining members of the GOP senate are NOT the moderates, with the exception of a small handful. What remains of the GOP is about 35 ultra-conservatives, many of which fall closer to Strom Thurmond of the 1950s than centralists looking to find common ground.
I believe that Obamas goal is to help the GOP extremify itself. By building a coalition of moderate Republicans and Democrats, he allows the talk radio, Fox News, and Paul Brouns of the world to sink from National-Attention grabbing nutjobs, to nutjobs who no one listens to, or even cares about.
And Lieberman? Well, ignoring the fact that he stumped hard to McCain, he is also a firm opponent of free speech legislation.
this was never about revenge or a grudge this became REWARDING lieberman.
during the primaries the moderates and war believers were with clinton it was the progressives of the party that donated and worked for obama and now i feel like i have been left out to dry. i knew obama was no liberal but really how is dumping an INDEPENDENT lieberman going to cost obama? the SENATE not only could have but SHOULD have dumped the sorry excuse for a chairman.
so far obama has given one more rotten time for a lieberman, clinton, holder, emanuel, and now daschle?
PLEASE TELL ME WHERE IS THE CHANGE? i feel im back in the 90's
i see no acknowledgment to progressives for their contribution just a slap in the face
on another note i am REALLY SICK of war analogies, lincoln rivals crap, cutesy phrases-"hold your enemies close" garbage. spin this good old boys club politics all you want im not buying it.
Obama did the right thing. Sticking to his principles as he has done the entire time. It was wrong of Lieberman to campaign for McCain, but Lieberman can still be a force for good for the DEMS.
So, get over the strite and get on with it. Life is too short.
I'm pissed, but I can see the logic. I guess if Obama can get over it, then I ought to get over it. That said, I don't have anything good to say about Lieberman. He's a scumbag.
Although he ran as an independent, Lieberman promised Connecticut voters that he would remain a Democrat. That promise, together with Lieberman's almost certain desire to eventually be reelected, means that he now owes Obama big-time. Obama was very astute with this move: instead of an out-of-control rogue, he now has Lieberman in his pocket. I'm confident that when there's a close vote on cloture, this chit will be promptly called in.
Hey libs,
Check out the latest Ras poll on Georgia. Chambliss is still +4. Even some democrats that support Martin, that knowing that if Martin won it would give Dems 60 and fillibuster proof majority would make them "less" likely to vote for Martin.
Well, I know Tom Daschle to be a good man, a good father (went to school with his daughter) with extensive senate pull. It looks to me like Obama is building a team that can get things done.
now we have obama staying with gates?
wow! lots more change...
this is starting to become a nightmare bush and clinton have morphed into an Obama
can someone here tell me where is the change?
This is the day the liberals lost for another generation.
Obama just made Joe the most powerful member of the legislative branch yesterday. There is now no way to remove Joe if err I mean when he goes off the reservation again. It will take a full vote of the Senate to remove him and it can be filibustered. There is not 60 votes if he decides to use the committee to go after Obama. So now Joe can do what he wants, when he wants with no threat of removal. Joe can use the treat of hearings and subpoena now to blackmail his way into getting his way all while knowing that he only has 2 years left or needs republican support to get reelected.
Obama is crazy if he thinks Joe is not going to go off the reservation again as he has at every opportunity, Clinton during impeachment, Gore during the recount, 2004 election, and the last 18 months. He already owed many and still stabbed them in the back.
This also singles, along with the appointment of all of the Clintionistas that he does not care what the left says. He knows that we will give him a honeymoon like know other. He knows there is no chance of a primary challenger in 2012 so why bother. If the pressure does not start now there will be but 2 token moderate liberals on the cabinet and only one with any real influence in the room.
Relax Nate-
Obama is worried about changing things and passing legislation, not about petty back biting in DC. I hate Lieberman, but keeping him is the best thing for getting legislation passed - and that really is the bottom line.
Trust Obama, and please let him be a moderate.
I still don't get what everyone's problem is with Joe. He stood up for his beliefs rather than behave like the rest of the sheep. Its a position I think he was wrong on, but that was his choice. Then he decided to endorse his friend instead of a dem. The only arguement I hear dems presenting is "he betrayed us, lets get revenge!" I say enough of that old-school blindly partisan nonsense.
mnark- read up on what lieberman has done on the homeland committee and maybe you will understand why so many do not want him for that job.
a clue he has done NOTHING...my dog would have done more and done it much better than worthless joe.
jim who posted earlier isw right the democrats have NO CONTROL over this guy and CANNOT get rid of him later.
Here's Daschle on health care reform.
http://www.hfma.org/hfmaviews/PermaLink,guid,523b7511-9faf-43b4-b0fe-34c65af6fd4b.aspx
Reminder, I'm an RN, 31 years in critical care, home care and some insurance case management. Daschle has a history on this and a good grasp of some of the disparities (Indian Reservation Health Care vs VA).
This has been something he's been in on for decades, including the '93-'94 attempt. I like this choice.
BTW, here's another good contribution on reform.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/10/health_care_delivery.html
One of the pieces that I think is not well factored in yet is that 59% of physicians now favor single payor health insurance and the numbers who do not want to continue practicing much longer under an insurance health care management system is significant.
Another huge issues that needs to be addressed is the role of nursing in health care. We are an utterly unique profession (not even really recognized as a profession by some definitions). The nurse - physician conflicts are still a huge problem in what is now called 'failure to rescue'. Nurses are the 24/7 early warning system for patients in acute and subacute care facilities as well as community care. When the doctors refuse to listen or act on those early warnings, patients have major complications requiring more expensive care or die. Historically, it's the nurses who get most of the heat for failure to rescue. When the doctors do listen, and 'save' the patient, any doubt on who gets the credit and praise?
Nurses are the second largest profession in the country, after teachers. The pay disparities for the education, job requirements and conditions standout this many years after women have made a lot of progress from jobs to sports and politics.
Very simply, we won't fix health care if we don't fix the nurse's role and compensation. The system is completely dependent on nursing care.
Nate is right that Obama is largely responsible for the Lieberman result. Just look at the senatros who supported Lieberman--Dodd, Durbin, and Kerry. They're all Obama allies. Surely, Obama is in communication with his Senate colleagues. They would not have supported Lieberman against Obama's wishes.
I thought the smart move was to strip Lieberman of his chair. But, it was never personal for me like it seems to be for so many on the netroots side. If Lieberman is a good chair of the committee, this will have been a wise decision.
Regrardless, it definitely was not out of character for Obama or contradictory of any campaign promises. If anything, it's consistent with Obama's desire to lessen the partisanship and unite the country. So, I fail to see the criticism of Obama for this.
However, Lieberman was elected as an Independent, and he sided with them two years ago to give them the majority, crucially important in that it allowed them to set the agenda and chair and form majorities on committees
He really had no choice about that. He pledged to caucus with the Democrats in the general election. Had he not done so, he probably would have lost to Lamont.
… but he stayed a part of the caucus throughout, and it was difficult for him; Iraq is very, very important to him, because he sees the US military presence in the Middle East as the means to defend Israel.
This really bothers me. Lieberman seems to be representing Israel more than he is Connecticut. It’s one thing to be pro-Israel, but when you put Israel’s interests above that of the U.S. you are no longer doing your job.
Obama was wrong about this and he was wrong, like so many others, in his vote for the bailout. I don't like his choice of Clinton for SoS or Daschle for HHS.
I voted for Obama but, after donating to and volunteering for his campaign, I stopped any further support after he won the nomination because I was not happy with him. I am getting even less happy as we move closer to his inauguration - even though I still believe he was our best choice.
His main problem is that, like the rest of the Congressional Dems and particularly the Senate, they don't seem to realize that they have the power of the American public behind them. They are still acting weak and letting themselves be pushed around.
Joe Lieberman had no leverage. He doesn't deserve the Chairmanship and he should have been stripped of it. If he would then have started taking out his resentment in votes, then he could have been kicked out of the caucus. He would not have risked that, because changing to the Republican Party would have meant losing all of the power of his seniority. We had all the cards and gave in because we were afraid to make him mad. That was stupid and, yes, Obama was responsible.
I just hope he gets himself straightened out enough in time to get re-elected. The way he's going doesn't make me feel hopeful.
I'm glad to see so many defer to the altar of 538, but I disagree whole-heartedly with Nate.
The expenditure of political capital and a few negative stories before the swearing in is NOTHING compared to the possibility of 4 years of investigations, stalled bills, subpoenas, and negotiations with a single man. The Democrats have, once again, made Lieberman one of the most powerful senators on Capital Hill.
This was a chance for the Dems (who will not reach their filibuster proof majority with or without Lieberman) to cut Joe loose. I don't say this out of anger or bitterness, merely out of pragmatism. This man will continue to play both sides and water down Dem bills. It's better to have him as a Republican who we know we can't count on, than an independent who we assume we can count on (but often can't).
I believe there are a couple of other dimensions to this.
Firstly by not 'punishing' someone who holds a different point of view, Obama is signalling that it is perfectly acceptable to hold different views from his own, he just doesn't have to agree with them.
That's a true intellectual's position and should hopefully lead to a more vigorous and higher quality debate about all sorts of issues if people feel they can step away from the party line without fear of retribution. It should at least put a stop to goverment by yes-men and cronies as we've had for the last eight years.
Secondly it shows a great deal of respect for the Connecticut electorate. They're the people who voted Lieberman in as an independent and presumably approve of his 'independent' views. Whether they do or not will be seen when he's up for re-election but in the meantime it's not Obama's business to come between Lieberman and his electorate.
JoJo is a scumbag. But a scumbag on a very short leash held by Obama.
In a sense jojo is the big loser, no more maverick BS, when big votes come it's chair/vote on the scales. We will see how much of a whore Lieberman is, when he subjugates his will to Obama time after time.
To those who say that the Dems won't be able to remove him in the future if he causes problems, then how is it possible for them to remove him now? Based on that logic the Republicans would be able to block any replacement that the Dems nominated.
Keep in mind that there are a handful of Republicans that have been critical of Bush's Iraq policy, and would not likely stand in the way of stripping Lieberman of his chairmanship if he were to continue to push those policies. The Dems would only need a couple of Republican defections, and that should not be difficult to get.
Oh, I forgot to leave my predictions.
-Heath care reform: What Obama pushes will not look remotely like what he promised or Ted Kennedy's bill but will instead look more like medicare part D, a gift to UHC and BCBS.
-Energy/Detroit bailout. The rise in CAFE standards will be back loaded to help save Detroit. Wagner will not lose his job and keep the 100 mil. But, a shit load of union jobs go down the toilet. Most of the research money will be given to big corn.
Cap and Trade will screw the small factories for the benefit of the large companies.
-Free trade will win the day with mostly cosmetic mentions of labor and environmental protection.
-We will still be in Iraq in 4 years be it in reduced numbers.
-More abortion clinics will close, due to violence and terrorism that goes uninvestigated, than closed during Bush.
-Kennedy types will be put on the SC.
because chair appointments were taking place. the minority party does not have a say in appointments just removals
eric- He can be removed now because they are in the process of making up the next Senate and assigning committee membership. Once the senate is seated though the rules require a full vote of the Senate to remove committee chairs.
@ eric, I think you're wrong about stripping Lieberman midterm. My understanding is that a decision to strip him in the future would require a majority of the Senate to vote to do so, not just a majority of Democrats. Surely, the former is more difficult to get than the latter. Regardless, if Democrats do not take action now, with such good cause to do so, why would anyone ever think they would take action in the future simply because Lieberman does not vote with the leadership on some issue. It won't happen. Lieberman is safely in his chair and there's little he could do to cause the Dems to try to remove him.
Obama is like Don Corleone in the godfather. He told Joe that someday I will ask you to do something for me in return for this favor.
At some point Obama will call on Joe to do something he doesn`t want to do but Obama will have him where he needs him.
Joe has one chance to get re-elected, start acting like a real democrat or else.
Let Lieberman keep the chairmanship but get rid of the department.
Nate, you rock!
Have to admit I had it wrong about Obama. That said, I still think it's important to give him time (not that we have a choice), especially while he has no actual power (60 days and counting).
I still think it's a lousy idea to leave him in charge of Homeland Security, maybe the suggested trade with somewhere else where his priorities aren't so awful and demonstrably dangerous.
Remind you (as has been said elsewhere) that L's policies on other issues are pretty good. And that he has stood with Dems for 2 years when we seriously needed him (and still do for those 60 days).
MISSOURI: votes show rapidly declining lead. Did I read here that it's unlikely to catch up? Up by a thousand or so again today. I'd love that "landslide" label.
ROFLMAO on rightie wingnut about Joementum. Not close to Bush/Cheney/ Rove/Rumsfeld/ Addington/Gonzales/Yoo et al.
This is off topic but important info regarding the GA race...thought I'd pass it along.
Here are the ways you can help.
===================
Election Day is December 2. That's the Tuesday after Thanksgiving.
GOTV will be Nov 29 - Dec 2.
-- yes, it's Thanksgiving weekend so it's a tough sell, and most of us have other plans. But if anyone is looking for an excuse to get away from the relatives.......
1.Phonebank from home.
For now, the campaign will send you a pdf of phone #s to call. You would need to enter the results in Votebuilder. They will help you with that.
Soon the virtual phonebank tool should be up. This works just like during the primary. You get one number, you call it, you record the results of the call on screen, and you move on.
---> These are "please vote" calls. These are not "voter id" or even "persuasion" calls. It should be the easiest call ever.
2.Travel to Georgia!
Are you longing for those primary road trips? Re-live the memories with a trip to Atlanta, any time Nov 29 - Dec 2.
Supporter housing will be provided.
Knock on door and make calls to remind people to vote.
Donate!
Make an in-kind donation to the campaign. Limit is $10,000.
Make checks payable to "Georgia's Campaign for Change"
Contact info:
Out of state team
404-914-5079
volunteer@martinvictory.org
Use this contact info to get set up with your own personal phone bank, make travel arrangements, or arrange that in-kind donation.
Invite a few friends over. Make it a party.
Pass this along...cheers.
The Daily Kos hyper-emotional reaction to this decision pretty much ended my interest in that site. I agree with most of their policy prescriptions and general political outlook, and I think they do a good job and providing support for progressive causes, but they really need to remove the emotion and hyper-ideological/partisanship from that site.
I’ve though Lieberman has been a weasel for a long time now and I have pure rage toward him since his actions in this campaign, but all of those feelings are irrelevant now. The only question in keeping Lieberman happy or not is whether it helps or hurts the Democrats chances at passing the legislation that they want. Now, that’s not necessarily a simple question to answer, but I think its obvious that there’s plenty of logic in the argument that keeping Lieberman in the Democratic caucus with his main chairmanship is the right strategic decision. You may come to a different conclusion, but why get so flipped out about it (the answer is you’re basing your decision on nonsensical emotional issues).
Remember that for all the dishonorable stuff Lieberman did this campaign against Obama and the Democrats in general, he didn’t break any rules, laws, or do anything super unruly. He said a lot of dishonest and mean-spirited stuff to his party’s leader, which sucks, but it’s up to the party to determine how they want to deal with that. They removed emotion from the calculation and determined they can use Lieberman for effectively by keeping him on board.
Deal with it. There’s more important things to get riled up about.
I think this is an excellent analysis. If the goal is to get progressive things done, it is better to have the possibility of Lieberman's vote than not. If the Democrats had a solid supermajority perhaps Obama might not have suggested the Dems "go easy" on Lieberman but even then, the argument about not wanting to give the Republicans and the press a distraction makes sense. Some Dems are angry that Lieberman is going unpunished, and I personally would like him to have to go sit in the corner, but I am also more interested in getting climate change legislation and universal healthcare bills passed than wreaking revenge.
Even if I am wrong about the Dems being able to strip him of his charimanship midterm, my other point still stands. It is unlikely that the Republicans will vote lock step against cloture on his removal.
And I don't really understand what problems you think he is going to cause as chairman. The only issue, so far, that he has disagreed with the Democrats on is Iraq. The Iraqi government wants us out of their country as soon as possible, and so do most people who hold elective office in the United States federal government. Do you really think that one lone Senator is going to be able to stand in the way of that for very long? Even if he is the chairman of a key committee.
If Obama decides to pull out all troops immediately as soon as he takes office in January, there really isn't anything anyone in the Senate can do about it. Those kinds of decisions are explicitly left to the Commander in Chief by the US Constitution. Congress can have an impact on new military depoyments by refusing to fund them, but that is the limit to their control over military decisions.
where does Lieberman stand on climate change?
One thing that's being ignored in all this is that Lieberman has good ties with both conservative Democrats and moderate Republicans in the Senate, such as those in the so-called gang of 14. This is a critical body of Senators to get legislation through. Punishing Lieberman could have had repercussions beyond just Lieberman's own vote on things, but also how these other centrists in the Senate respond to Obama and his agenda.
Obama definitely made the right move. I could care less about revenge--what I care about is getting a progressive agenda passed.
Nate Silver is an embarrassment.
I wish he had the nuts to stand up to an intellect like me.
Too bad he's too much of a hack and lunatic moonbat to do anything serious besides play with numbers.
I would take Nate to the woodshed and excoriate his ass.
This is my challenge, Mr. Silver. Do you have what it takes?
@mule,
You have challenged Nate numerous times before. Has he ever responded?
Either he really is scared of you or doesn't want to give you the time of day.
Instead of talking trash on here, which is easy as hell to do, go find him. With Nate's new fame, I'm sure you could go to Chicago and find him somehow, some way. Hunt him down and force the challenge you seek if you've got a set, but otherwise, quit wasting space in here.
@ Mrs. B:
Lieberman on the environment
thanks for the link kid g.
Lieberman appears mixed on the environment but not awful. Some of his positions on other things seem weirdly rightwing to me as a European, but are probably moderate in US terms.
I really do think that Lieberman's a sniveling little snake.
That being said, he knows which side his bread is buttered on now and if he knows what's good for him, and he does, then he's going to lockstep with the president.
"Politics, particularly presidential campaigns and the president and the White House, have always been sacred cows in this country, almost as if the president ruled by divine right.
Especially since the start of the age of television. Some people have that kind of respect for these people. I don't, any more than I have respect for police and chambers of commerce. . . .Just because a person can subject himself to the degredations of a lifetime in politics and finally end up in the White House is certainly no reason to respect him, as Nixon has recently given us elegant evidence to confirm."
Hunter S. Thompson, Songs of the Doomed
I was torn with what I thought should happen to Lieberman. On one hand, he had gone too far with his actions on the campaign. On the other, I just got done watching the Republicans get their butts kicked in a second straight election, primarily because too many of its members were afraid to speak out against the Bush Administration for years for fear of retribution. In the end, I am fine with this result - if what Lieberman did was so wrong, hopefully the voters of Connecticut took notice.
Can someone please explain to me what incentive Lieberman now has to support the President and Senate Democrats?
He was elected without their support. He went off the reservation and still retained his chairmanship. He owes them nothing.
We are about to see Joe Unhinged and it ain't gonna be pretty.
Saw this quote on Politico, “Joe Lieberman will never step out of line again, that’s for sure,” said one senior Democratic senator.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15766_Page2.html
If he acts and votes like a good Democrat and supports Obama's policies, I'm fine with the vote. My concern is that now the danger to him has passed and he got away with his transgressions scot free, he'll continue to do what's in his best interest, rather than act as a loyal Democrat.
The only question in keeping Lieberman happy or not is whether it helps or hurts the Democrats chances at passing the legislation that they want.
What about the question of keeping a neo-con in charge of homeland security legislation?
Does this matter to anyone?
So what if he's more likely to vote Yea on a climate change or health care bill? The Dems will reach 60 on those votes anyway with the handful of moderate Republicans under pressure in 2010.
Obama better hope that Holy Joe is as willing to bury the hatchet as the rest of the Senate Democrats are.
"Captain Slow said...
I really do think that Lieberman's a sniveling little snake.
That being said, he knows which side his bread is buttered on now and if he knows what's good for him, and he does, then he's going to lockstep with the president."
Lieberscum is going to do whatever he wants. He CANNOT be removed from his committee now without a vote of the ENTIRE congress. He could spend every day for the next 2 years calling openly for Obama's impeachment and causing as much havoc as possible, and NOBODY would be able to do a thing about it!
That's because Republicans would FILIBUSTER any attempt to remove Lieberman. His ego is not bigger than ever. He's totally screwed Democrats every way he can, from running openly against Obama, to giving a swinish speech at the Rep. Nat. Convention, to campaigning for REPUBLICAN senators to appearing on every TV talk show to attack Democrats and praise Republicans for their "moderation" and "bi-partisanship."
He's a lying little spooge-bag and to expect anything different from him over the next 2 years because he "knows where his bread is buttered" is hopelessly naive.
He just spat in the eye of every Democrat and they just bent over and said "thank you Sir, can I please have another?" Just like the evil frat in Animal House.
....and what odds is anyone offering on Obama abolishing Homeland Security?
I look at it like this. Personally, I think Holy Joe deserves the political equivalent of having his thumbs broken. There's political merit in that, too. But when you get right down to it, who am I to tell Barack Obama what to do when it comes to politics? If he thinks this is the way to go, I'll support it.
This site is such a pleasure. The people who disagree with Nate express themselves calmly and lay out their reasons.
I happen to agree with Obama (and Nate) on this issue, but I appreciate the contrarian posts.
I think Obama is dedicated to the art of the possible, not the ideal. Progressives will be disappointed in many of his positions and priorities, but I believe that we are in the process of reclaiming our government and country one measured step after another.
“Joe Lieberman will never step out of line again, that’s for sure,”
All I want to know is what the hell is this based on????
What if, a year from now, Lieberman decides to start investigating Obama's handling of the closing of Guantanamo?
What if Lieberman becomes Obama's fiercest critic on the Hill, calling him dangerous to national security and a threat to Israel's existence?
What could the Democrats possibly do, now, to restrain him?
@Andrew
They will vote to remove his chairmanship. The Republicans will not vote lock step against cloture on that. There are a handful of Republicans who side with the Dems on Iraq. And I imagine that there are more than a few Republican Senators who have supported Bush on Iraq in the past, but are eager for Iraq to stop being in the news.
Exactly Andrew. Lieberman could go on a witch hunt over any trumped up scandal that comes along and cause major headaches for Obama. Democrats do not have any leverage over Lieberman. At this point, they're relying on his good graces, natural political leanings, and maybe the prospect of losing re-election in four years.
A sensible overview from Nate.
My perspective:
Is this Washington political capital? Then Obama has acted correctly.
Or, is this political capital he earned from his voters? Two things will hurt the Dems with voters in 2010: the economy getting much worse or not improving at all, or (to me much more likely) not getting much done during this period, with voters saying - they were no good, let's try the alternative.
Does keeping Lieberman in the Dem Congressional leadership make it more likely that things will get done? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Look, Lieberman is dead meat two years minus two weeks from now anyway. Does anyone REALLY think the people of CT are going to re-elect him after the last six years? So why allow him to be a martyr to his GOP enablers?
eric, why would Republicans ever vote to strip Lieberman of his chair? It's not an issue vote, where some Republicans might cross over. Stripping Lieberman is all about partsan politics and that's the one thing Republicans will not cross over on. Besides, even if you could get a Republican vote or two, what makes you think the Democratic caucus would vote in lock step. Lieberman is part of the club and has friends. He just had 40+ Democrats support him after everything he did. It's hard to imagine anything that would cause him to lose ALL their votes.
Nate, very good analysis. I think it was wise and pragmatic to forgive Lieberman, and a signal that Obama recognizes that it is time to get beyond the penny-ante bickering if you want to concentrate on the panoply problems we have at hand today. Life and time are too short to mess with whether or not Joe L. should be penalized when industry is collapsing, people are declaring bankruptcy because they are sick, and the sea is lapping at our doorsteps.
~ Bruce
I'm curious - why do you think Obama was behind this, as opposed to having washed his hands of the affair, which was his public statement last week.
This post is entirely speculation on your part, Nate. You have no idea whether Obama pushed the Senate Democrats to do this or whether it was the other way around, namely, Obama wanted him jettisoned and the Senate leaders said no.
Guessing what's going on behind the scenes is not what you're trained to do. It really is not what I'm looking for at this site.
All I want to know is what the hell is this based on????
What if, a year from now, Lieberman decides to start investigating Obama's handling of the closing of Guantanamo?
What if Lieberman becomes Obama's fiercest critic on the Hill, calling him dangerous to national security and a threat to Israel's existence?
What could the Democrats possibly do, now, to restrain him?
2010: Stripped of chairmanship.
2012: Loses election.
Lieberman's actions during the campaign were because of the unique situation that his BFF John McCain was running for president. Lieberman showed he has absolute loyalty to his close friends and no loyalty to his party. Since his BFF is no longer running for President, and since Lieberman's domestic policy is generally favorable to Democrats, it seems a little irrational to assume Lieberman’s going to fuck things up just for the hell of it.
Look: Lieberman’s an asshole who deserves a real punch in the face, but there’s clear reasoning in his past decisions. He didn’t insult and attack Obama just because he hates Obama and the Democrats; he did so because he has no boundaries and his close friend who has similar foreign policy outlooks was running for President. Furthermore, If McCain won, there’s a 99.9% chance Lieberman would have been given some sort of cabinet position and wouldn’t have to face the potential wrath of his former party and the voters. There’s insufficient evidence to assume he’ll fuck around now, knowing if he does so again, he’ll certainly be punished by at least the voters of Connecticut and/or the Democrats.
I agree with the consensus, it would have been nice to see Lieberman punished, but it will be nicer to no longer worry about whether or not you are able to get the health care you need, and not have to fight with the sleazy HMOs to get it.
I hope Obama doesn't let us down like Clinton did, I thought I was electing a democrat in 92 and I got a republican in Bubba clothing.
Come on Dems, let's get it together and get it done.
Can someone please explain to me what incentive Lieberman now has to support the President and Senate Democrats?
His incentive to work with Democrats is that he is ideologically in line with them on most issues; he might want re-election from a liberal state that gave Obama over 60%; Dems have large majorities and if he wants to be relevant he'll take this opportunity to start cooperating with them; they can take the gavel away in two years if he doesn't behave (yeah, I know they didn't take it away this time, but if he starts actually using the power of the chairmanship against Obama that is a different matter than being critical of Obama in a campaign). If the goal is getting him to support the Democratic agenda, what incentive would taking his gavel give him? Despite his agreement with them on issues other than the war, taking the gavel away would only encourage him to vote against them out of spite.
Does the political capital of people who helped get him and the Senators elected count? At all? Because he just spent it.
An entire generation of voters just got slapped in the face, and you're crazy if you think they're ever going to have this much enthusiasm for the Democratic brand again.
Thanks @Sanjay for Sun Tzu reference. Wow, very appropriate for our times.
Also thanks @mrs b / @kid g for relevant information. Lieberman link on climate is instructive but dates from 2004 race. I think there may have been some pandering on coal and offshore drilling since then, but it demonstrates that his thinking on the issues is a lot better than almost anyone on the right.
Obama has shown himself to be cautious and pragmatic, perhaps to a fault.
While Lieberman might have been a perfect bone to throw to his virulent netroots supporters (many of whom are frequent posters here on 538), he chose to reconcile with the man and act in character with the post-partisan politics he promised. Bully for him!
It remains a curiosity to me, though, that Obama would be willing to spend his political capital on assuring Lieberman retains his chairmanship and his status within the Democratic Party, but seems unwilling -- at least on the surface -- to play a more direct role in dealing with our nation's economic situation, which, with the imminent collapse of the domestic auto producers, seems to have reached yet another stage of crisis.
Obama needs to be leading his party and the nation with regard to the Detroit bailout. It is a dodge to suggest that there is only one President at a time. That is a truism, but it is also true that Obama will have to deal with Bush's legacy and he ought to be doing everything he can to stave off further disaster as it will be all the more difficult to get out of the hole we are in if it gets much deeper.
Though some will note that it is not even two weeks since the election, that time can be an eternity when the patient is lying on the ground in coronary arrest needing paddles. Obama must signal his intentions with a great deal more clarity in terms of taxes and trade.
The people are not well-served if all they are learning about are the family pooch and the choices for his daughters' school.
At the end of the day, CT voters are probably going to reject Lieberman in a primary in 2012, and this time, boot him out of the senate in the general election. If he doesn't retire, which is also possible.
Why waste energy and political capital to destroy a career that's likely to die a natural death soon enough?
It's probably true that Lieberman isn't doing very much with his chairmanship, but the hysterical conjecture about what he might do is just that - conjecture. We don't know what he might have said or done in the last few days.
Petty revenge-taking is for weaklings like George Bush. This is simply about letting Lieberman go out with dignity, and whether he "deserves" it or not, it's clearly the rational thing to do.
Lieberman is a weasel, but the objective of the Obama administration should be to govern the country and fix the mess we're in, not to punish weasels.
It seems to me that perhaps everyone is missing the bigger picture here. Has Obama ever promised to maintain the Department of Homeland Security? If it was to be dissolved, in much the same way it was created by W, then who cares who is the chair of the committee? T the same time Joe was removed from the committee which will write the global warming legislation, which we all know, and Obama has already publicly stated, will be forefront immediately.
Hello, Susan.
"I think there may have been some pandering on coal and offshore drilling"
Would that be similar to the pandering that Obama has done on this issue? Or was he lying when he said he would cosnider supporting more drilling and clean coal?
Perhaps I don't have the right decoder ring. I can never figure out what he really means.
eh, Pete Kent, shouldn't W be the one doing something about the economic crisis? He still remains the president for a couple of months.
Don't get Pete started again. High School just let out for the day and she has nothing else to do with her time but try and pin the economic crisis on Obama. There isn't any logic behind it, just a past-time.
This was a smart move by Obama,if for no other reason than to see who goes with him in the party and who will opposed him and ultimately need to be persuaded. To get things done he'll need all the dems, and he needs to know right away who's got his back. Stopping the infighting looks good for publicity. I don't think the dems in Connecticut will forget Lieberman's betrayal and next election he will pay the piper.
Far more important for progressives than Lieberman's status is the ongoing battle to replace dinosaur John Dingel with Henry Waxman on the House Energy and Commerce committee.
The Dem House steering committee voted 25-22 today to recommend that Waxman replace Dingel.
This is a huge deal - it will make a difference beyond just our egos. Yet very few progressives are paying attention or doing anything to encourage people to contact their Dem Reps. to let their feelings be known.
Joe Prime,
You ask: "Has Obama ever promised to maintain the Department of Homeland Security?"
Indeed he has promised to establish a domestic security force that will be as powerful as the Defense Department. Some have compared this to Hitler's establishment of the SS as his own domestic police force, separate and distinct from Germany's armed forces.
One of the things that seems to dog Obama is his opposition to the military. He is on record as saying he wants to slash appropriations. The military brass are a very powerful cabal, one that Obama may not be able to completely control inasmuch as he will have to defer to their judgment.
If his enmity towards the US defense establishment is as great as some suspect, I would not put it past Obama to want to set up some sort of domestic agency totally under his thrall as a counterbalance. He could use the Department of Homeland Security as the vessel to fulfill this design.
At the end of the day, CT voters are probably going to reject Lieberman in a primary in 2012,
Would Lieberman even run in the Democratic primary in 2012? I had just assumed he'd run in the general as an independent (and the de facto Republican candidate).
Jim-
Stop being a whiny bitch.
The one has nothing to do with the other Pete. You are confusing issues. DHS is nothing more than organized oversight and redundant in the eyes of many. It isn't a special force of people wearing special uniforms that are going to goose-step across America at Obama's command.
Let's not all forget that Pete has already admitted to being a liberal who only comes in here and makes these arguments to pass time. As she does not believe them herself we really don't need to try and defend our positions or convince her of them. She is already in our camp, just bored.
Mike -
I would assume Lieberman runs as an "Independent Democrat", should he choose to run at all, and fails to break 15% of the vote.
My guess is that the GOP will run a viable candidate in 2012 in CT, hoping for a Lieberman - Dem candidate split.
In 2006, they did not anticipate Lieberman not being the nominee, so they put up a token candidate. In 2010, they could sense opportunity, and either soon to be ex-Rep Chris Shays or current popular GOP Gov Rell might be the candidate, and in a three-way race, possibly win.
Mrs. B,
Bush has indicated he is opposed to the bailout. If it is imppoprtant enuf to happen now, then Obama should do what he can to see that it happens now. Jan 20th may be too late.
CT voters are at least 60% liberal. There is no way that half of them would vote for Lieberman if there was a viable GOP candidate running. Without half of them defecting from the Dem party no GOP candidate can win in a split.
We still have a chance at 60 votes and if we do get Franken & Martin in - we'll need Liberman. It would have been a mistake to "teach him a lesson" at the cost of that 60th vote. Lieberman is a tool who will hopefully be voted out in 2012 but for now - let's move on.
The Republicans are becoming a fringe party - now is not the time to throw them a bone.
Letting Lieberman keep his chair—without requiring any concessions—was an extremely poor move politically. L. now has carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants. What could possibly motivate him to break filibusters NOW? He already knows that Senate dems won't hold him accountable for anything. Sure, he'll still vote with dems whenever it pleases him, but that's what he would have done without his chairmanship.
Lieberman is now in an excellent position for 2012. He can present himself as a true independent (he didn't even have to apologize for his support of vicious anti-Obama slurs) who's nonetheless very powerful (DHS com. chair), a regualar über-maverick. He can even make the argument that HE is a uniter (opposed BO the candidate, supported him as prez), just in case Obama's first term goes well.
By contrast, Senate dems again look like a bunch of pussies. How did that work out during GWB's first term (the height of dem pussydom)!? Senate dems gained absolutely nothing by capitulating so completely to Lieberman. If they're still afraid of a few partisan rants on Fox Noise, God help us all.
The following is an email I just received from the Obama transition team. THIS is change we need, and it flies in the face of the naysayers who say that being weak on Lieberman just means that the Democrats are weak-kneed and impotent when it comes to changing the status quo. Can you imagine the Republicans producing a letter like this when they are in power, as a result at least making citizens feel like their voices might be heard?:
62 days. That's how much time we have left to prepare for the Obama-Biden Administration that will bring the change Americans demanded so strongly in this past election.
President-elect Obama has set a high bar for the Transition team: to execute the most efficient, organized, and transparent transfer of power in American history. As a co-Chair for the Transition, I want to tell you about a few steps we've already taken to achieve this goal.
First, we adopted the strictest ethics guidelines ever applied to any transition team. President-elect Obama pledged to change the way Washington works, and that begins with shifting influence away from special interests and restoring it to the everyday Americans who are passionate about fixing the problems facing our country.
Opening up the Transition means listening to your ideas and stories and providing a window into how the process works.
To give you a look at how we're approaching some of the nation's most pressing issues, we filmed this meeting of our Energy and Environment Policy Transition Team and interviewed team member Heather Zichal.
Watch the video and submit your ideas on energy and the environment:
Watch the video
President-elect Obama and Vice President-elect Biden have set an ambitious agenda, and we are going to make Change.gov a source of information, as well as a place to participate in the decisions being made about your government.
Since the decisions we're making affect all Americans, we're counting on citizens from every walk of life to get involved. You can help us right now by making sure your friends and neighbors know about Change.gov and give their input, too.
We're continuing to develop new ways to open up the process, and we'll keep you posted along the way.
Thanks,
John
John Podesta
Obama-Biden Presidential Transition Team
An entire generation of voters just got slapped in the face, and you're crazy if you think they're ever going to have this much enthusiasm for the Democratic brand again.
It's this kind of argument that really reassures me about this whole outcome. Most people don't really like Lieberman, but also don't really care what position he has in the Democratic caucus. How many of this generation of voters really weighed Lieberman's fate into their vote at all? Anyone who did put more weight on what happened to Lieberman than on healthcare, the war, judicial appointments, the economy, etc., (issues which Obama hasn't had the opportunit to address since he still isn't actually the president) has some seriously out of whack priorities. All this hyperventilating, claiming your own feelings are actually the wishes of the entire electorate, just reinforces the idea that it was a visceral desire for retribution rather than a pragmatic approach toward governance.
Idiotic name calling and casting aspersions does not make for thoughtful debate. Joe Prime's as hominem attacks are a good example of the sort of Stalinist tactics the left uses to suppress free thought silence their critics.
Whatever she thinks he knows of me, she has perhpas learned from my sock puppet . . . .
The Obama transition . . .
"that begins with shifting influence away from special interests and restoring it to the everyday Americans who are passionate about fixing the problems facing our country." I guess that's why they have already shredded the rules on letting lobbyists in!
BTW I would not go near change.gov and post a thing. You will have Obama's version of the Stasi showing up on your door if you say anything he doesn't like!
BTW, Obama has officially lost Missouri :(
The sky is officially falling.
Point at PK when appropriate.
Have you ever seen a windbag, a windbag, a windbag?
Have you ever seen a windbag? Well there's one right there.
He huffs and he puffs, and he puffs and he huffs. Have you ever seen a windbag? Well there's one right there.
I suspect that those most disappointed by Obama's push to keep Lieberman in the caucus are the Republicans. Not only did it keep them from probably gaining a vote, it showed that Obama really means it when he says he's going to move beyond partisanship and not let personal rancor get in the way of his agenda. If he succeeds, the Dems are looking at another landslide in four years.
Oh well, it was pretty obvious they were going to keep Lieberman.
Come see my new probably awful blog:
http://youngerpolitics.blogspot.com/
"but now Lieberman owes him."
Nate makes his case well. Others have made a convincing case that Lieberman has not been anywhere near a 90% democrat and is very likely to us the HC chairmanship to sabotage Obama in ways that can't be easily circumvented by trying to remove him after the fact.
There are two metrics by which to determine who's right as we go forward.
1) His senate floor votes (easy to measure)
2) Which bills and investigations get taken up by the Homeland Security Committee and which don't. (this will require much closer attention). Is there any truly progressive senator on that committee who could be counted on to leak any backroom Lieberman sabotage to the press?
Sure, he'll still vote with dems whenever it pleases him, but that's what he would have done without his chairmanship.
This seems logically inconsistent. The fear of letting Lieberman keep his chairmanship is based on the idea that Lieberman, despite a long track-record of being friendly to most domestic Democratic causes, will wreck havoc in the caucus out of desire to…wreck havoc…because he can? But then if he’s kicked out of his chairmanship (or the caucus entirely), there’s no worry he’ll have a huge chip on his shoulder and will focus entirely on wrecking havoc on the Democrats (something the GOP would love)?
if we do get Franken & Martin in
Nate - are you going to update the GA percentage in the senate chart?
Think of Lieberman as you would a cockroach. Mildly annoying in the singular, and certainly a pest, but not critical to life and death. You don't want it to reproduce, certainly, or get into your food. But, you also really don't want to squash it in a way that makes a huge mess. So you do what you can to move it away or limit its access.
That, to me, is what Obama has done. The chair of any committee, in modern times, is still relatively weak. He has little to no power if there isn't legislation before him to deal with, other than calling meaningless oversight hearings - which is why Bush did so much of his security stuff through Executive Order.
What's Lieberman going to do that would block what OBAMA wants to (as opposed to the far left)? Try to keep Gitmo open? (EO) Try to keep us in Iraq by blocking the SofF agreement? (good luck with that, since the alternative is immediate pull out). Not fund troops for Afghanistan? (good luck blocking that as a hawk). Try to force the NSA to keep spying on citizens? (originally EO, plus FISA bill already passed) Seriously, what? Maybe block aid to Africa to help restore peace in the Congo and Darfur, but that was a longshot anyways and really not on DHS' plate.
With 147+ comments already, I doubt many will read this. But here goes.
Obama has no leverage over Lieberman because Lieberman never honors debts. He does not keep promises. Lieberman votes on principle, singular, he only has one. Attack enemies, especially Muslim nations.
Everything else (honor, healthcare, freedom, the Constitution, oversight, promises, debts, etc.) will be sacrificed if it helps drop bombs on Iran.
If Obama goes soft on the Global War on Terror, Lieberman will use the Homeland Security chair to attack Obama. If Obama saber rattles at Iran Lieberman will forgive anything else Obama does.
I do not trust that man with unchecked power. He can bring in a chain of wingnuts to make specious accusations against Obama. In session, it will take a Senate vote and probably a filibuster override to take the chair away from Lieberman. It cannot be casually taken away by Senate Democratic leadership. This battle will be used as proof that the truth is being silenced.
I pray I'm wrong and that Obama knows what he's doing here.
In other news, AP calls MO for McCain (final margin under 4000 votes out of 3 million), and Ted Stevens concedes (no recount).
Stevens was actually gracious about it; Palin said nice things about Begich as well.
Since it seems to be turning into a sub-thread, Daschle for HHS is a good choice for a pragmatic president. HHS is a lot more than just a healthcare plan, and while Daschle and Hillary may be equal on that (along with Sen. Kennedy, Sen. Baucus and a number of other bigwigs), he knows a lot more about rural/native healthcare and Medicaid/Medicare generally in no small part because of his roots in SD. Plus, he respects Obama's vision for healthcare (he helped formulate it after all) and he still has a lot of pull in the Senate to get things done (Obama's greater support than Hillary in the Senate was in no small part because he inherited Daschle's old chief of staff, for example).
Simple question:
I keep reading variations on a theme here. That theme is that the Senator from CT will be harder to depose from his CommChairmnshp after the Senate is in session. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right, but where exactly in the Rules of the Senate are the procedures for appointing CommChairs before and during a session spelled out? Just curious...
I'm willing to bet on Obama's instinct here; but the first time Short Ride backstabs President Obama on Middle East policy or (more likely) interferes with his attempts to clean up the corruption that Chairman Liberman has been ignoring at DHS, the Senate caucus had better be ready to come down on him like a sack of hammers, and toss him to the curb.
No Pity!
PeteKent, exactly what more can Obama do on the automakers? He can't change Bush's mind, nothing Paulson says seems to be true or last more than five minutes, right now the Senate lacks votes for cloture (it isn't even close) and he at least got them to take up the issue in the lame duck session. What compromises should he be making that are worth the two month speedup we are talking about? Because once its rolled into a broader infrastructure package and sweetened appropriately, this sucker will pass in the new Congress. Probably as a housewarming gift to the President on Jan. 21.
This is a marathon, not a sprint. Just like everyone who kept screaming he had to get angry at Hillary and/or McCain should be embarrassed, anyone who mistakes his relatively low profile for a lack of action or a plan is not using the right frame of reference. Even FDR stayed out of Hoover's way in 1932.
McCain winning Missouri is EXCELLENT NEWS!!!!!!!!! ......for PRESIDENT ELECT OBAMA!!
Good that Stevens was gracious. I would have been very surprised by a recount. Recounts never change the result when you're talking about thousands, as opposed to hundreds, of votes and over 1% differential. It would have just been a waste of Stevens' money.
PeteKent said....
Though some will note that it is not even two weeks since the election, that time can be an eternity when the patient is lying on the ground in coronary arrest needing paddles.
A perfect description of the condition of the USA after 8 years of Bush and Rethuglican rule. Thank you Pete Kent!
Nice to see folks coming round on this one. Lieberman is not important. What is important is that Democrats prove they can govern. At this point, the inchoate rage directed at Lieberman is just proof that some people can only relate to politics through anger. Get it through your heads people. We won!
Now take a deep breath.
Exhale.
And listen carefully. No one should be judging Obama's presidency for at least a year. In case you haven't noticed, Obama is a lot smarter than you. That's why he's the President of the United States and you're still living in your mom's basement. So far, I think he's making a lot of really smart calls.
:)
@ mason, I believe the first thing the Senate does is to pass an organizing resolution that establishes who are the committee chairs and who sits on what committees. Everyone votes on it. So, it takes another vote by the entire Senate to change it.
Tell me anyone here: please, who had any doubt 8 years ago that the USA would be 'lying on the ground in coronary arrest needing paddles' when Bush was elected?
I knew it, you knew it, the world knew it.
Only Rethuglicans didn't know it.
And just take a look at the complete and utter mess Bush and the Rethuglicans leave behind now.
It's frightening.
What's even more frightening though is that 46% of the USA still wanted them in power!!!
@PeteKent
Serious annoying that you took my comment about Lieberman out of context and applied it to Obama.
I was replying to the post about Lieberman's position on the environment, for which a link from his VP candidacy in 2004 was provided. I retain the impression that LIEBERMAN, NOT OBAMA, lightened his environmental position to align with McCain, but even this comment was put as a possible, not a definite.
I have avoided the commentary back and forth with you, but this was nasty and uncalled for. Typical of the dishonest and deceptive neocon tactics. I thought you were better than that, but now we know.
volid = voiding the valid
I have to go with the good cop (Obama)/ bad cop (senate dems) analogy here. Obama played this well, but the senate dems were lame as usual. Even if they decided it was good for Lieberman to win, they should have engineered a closer vote.
In the words of Lincoln, who Obama seems hellbent on imitating, "let 'em up easy". The enemy you assist and promote owes you.
While there are some foreign policy aspects to Homeland Security, it is primarily about border security and domestic policy. In other words, about ports, chemical plants, water supply, nuclear power plants, immigration, etc. As such, Lieberman's neo-con foreign policy positions should not impact this committee that much. I would be more concerned about his subcommittee chairmanship on the Armed Services Committee.
Folks need to remember that it was Lieberman and Senator Cleland who were the original proponents of having a Department of Homeland Security so switching Senator Lieberman to chair of another oversight committee would have been taking away "his baby," so to speak.
Thanks, Nate, for a cogent discourse on the Lieberman decision. It expanded my view.
My instincts are similar to some other sentiments expressed on this thread (Glix, William) but beyond the emotional drivers my ultimate objections to Lieberman are based on his poor judgment and ineffectiveness as a policy leader. Put another way, he is a second-rate politician of questionable character.
However, I am inclined to defer to the Obama team's judgment of the appropriate political calculation. He's done well enough so far that I feel comfortable spotting him that much confidence. I certainly don’t trust him but I do trust that Obama’s team has a strategy for wringing maximum advantage from him.
Also, with a few exceptions, thanks to the other respondents on this thread. I find your contributions generally thoughtful and useful which is a damn sight better qualification than many other forums.
One more observation. While there may be many familiar faces in the emerging crowd, doesn’t anyone else agree that having Barack, his vision, and his sensibilities at the center is THE fundamental change? So far I see no reason to believe that he won’t mold these players into something different. Maybe it won’t be as visually arresting as we expected but don’t you think we should give him some time, maybe even a couple of years, before we let our imaginations and fears dismay us?
Nate, I don't see "significant expenditure of political capital" here. All the Big O had to do was keep his mouth shut and, when asked, say he didn't want to interfere in Senate business, which is why he just resigned his seat. Instead, he chose to expend political capital by pissing off the netroots. (Whether you think that's $5 or 5c of capital, it's still got to count for something.)
Oh, and it wouldn't have been a "huge distraction" either. A 2-day story, tops, spun as another sad chapter in the former VP nominee's fall from grace.
My best interpretation is that nobody in charge thought through, or possibly even heard, the substantive objections as enumerated by, e.g. Jane Hamsher and Steve Benen, and reiterated by commenter Glix above. Even Howard Dean hadn't reviewed Droopy's record. They just thought of this in their old frame of "Senate High School" and gee, Joe's kind of a stinker but he's our stinker, and I know he didn't really mean all those nasty things he said, and...
One more thing. How can anything in this entire affaire be described with the term "bipartisan?" How is it that resolving a dispute with a caucus member is a harbinger of how they'll deal with the Republicans?
Ginny in CO
I absolutely agree with you about nurses, and the same logic applies to teachers. Compensate those who are the foundation of medical care.Pay teachers enough so that our best and brightest can afford to teach, maybe even compete to do so.
Health care dollars are used for the most esoteric procedures, the newest drugs, and the huge administrative costs of big insurance. They need to be used for health education, public health, and for the people who provide hour-to-hour care.
I hope that Tom Daschle is up to the task (I would have liked to see Howard Dean in HHS: he actually achieved rational health care in Vermont).
As for Lieberman, I am another one willing to give the President-elect the benefit of the doubt. I also wonder whether *anyone* voted for McCain over Obama because of Joe's endorsement.
One more thing. How can anything in this entire affaire be described with the term "bipartisan?" How is it that resolving a dispute with a caucus member is a harbinger of how they'll deal with the Republicans?
Don't be daft. It shows that dissent, even at the highest levels and on the most important questions, is acceptable. Feel free to contrast this with the recet behavior of the GOP at your leisure.
I know this is a bit of a nerdy thing to say, but the networks still haven't updated their figures for Hillsborough County, Florida - even though the correct figures have been available for about a week. The reason I mention it is that it makes you wonder whether they haven't properly updated other areas around the country.
"I also wonder whether *anyone* voted for McCain over Obama because of Joe's endorsement."
Six Jews in West Palm Beach. It did not have nearly the impact that either expected.
This is the area in which I find this whole thing simply delicious. Both of these old windbag's bloated sense of their own importance. McCain thought Lieberman would assure Florida and Lieberman thought Florida would ensure a McCain victory. With McCain in the WH then Lieberman could vacate his seat to do something important, like oversee the bombing of any random Muslim majority nation. Now they are both back to their old jobs with absolutely no hope for re-election.
Doesn't anyone else think that just watching these fools slowly decay is worth keeping them around?
What did we gain? Nothing; we have no way of enforcing Lieberman's support in a cloture vote, so the "magic number" of 60 (assuming we even get it) is meaningless.
What did we lose? Well, now we have a Senate Homeland Security/Government Affairs Chairman who believes that "bipartisanship" means pissing off his own party whenever possible, and is now charged with oversight over a president he has repeatedly called "dangerously naive."
We've also signaled to Lieberman (and the Republicans) that the Senate Democratic Caucus is just as weak as ever, which means the first time Obama tries to shove anything controversial through the upper chamber the opposition is gonna try to roll him, with some confidence of success.
Stripping Lieberman of his HS/GA chair might've cost us the news cycle, but by the inauguration that would be ancient history and would not affect Obama's agenda in the slightest. Plus, it would've been a sign of strength to the GOP and it would've kept Lieberman from meddling in the Obama administration.
This was a dumbass, lose-lose call, and one more good reason to dump Harry Reid.
(WV - skers: a Democratic Senator with balls)
porridgegun-well said
i agree with you i wont forget this "vote" not that the demos seem to care-which also pisses me off
also agree about reid and all that garbage yesterday.
off topic but does anyone feel that this clinton SOS talk is getting old and messy?
david corn wrote an article in mother jones about it sorry dont have link
mason -
You see tolerance of dissent. I see strong-arming Senators and ignoring party members with honestly held grudges -- i.e. suppression of dissent. YMMV. (Hope that doesn't sound daft :-))
I don't know about you, but I thought the change I was voting for was to get leaders with the courage of their convictions. Lieberman retaining his leadership position is not change, either literally (he was already a chairman) or effectively (he was an ineffective chairman, and a really bad Democrat).
I think Nate is sugar coating it a bit, but I agree with some of his points.
This was always gonna be a pain in the arse for the Dems and an obvious distraction for Obama. Basically, typical of everything associated with Joe Lieberman. That's why the liberal blogs, including myself, were looking forward to seeing him being marginalised. No doubt it would have made a lot of people ecstaic to see Lieberman getting punted, but it wouldn't mean much in the long-term. Keeping his Homeland Security chairmanship is by far the most disgusting aspect to this.
Saying that, the fact that yesterday's vote is barely mentioned by the FReeptards is quite telling. So Nate's spot on about handing the MSM and the right-wing a shiny red apple. Also, a few senators told their contituents this vote would be in January. Whichever way it went, it was better to get this out of the way during the noisy (Hillary speculation) transition period. That's not to say the people who worked their arses off to get Obama elected and ensure a near filibuster-proof majority won't forget this vote. This has been filed under the FISA capitulation as an example of Obama and the Democratic leadership pissing on the base for political expediancy. Bottom line, this better be worth it in the long-term. That means Lieberman being under the thumb of Obama and voting with the caucus on every important issue and getting Obama's agenda passed. Anything short of that and it wasn't worth the hassle of keeping the little weasal around. Ans he better STFU on Iraq, Iran and Israel. He's a friggin nutjob when it comes to the middle east.
Regardless of the Lieberman vote, Harry Reid is the poster boy for the wimpocrat wing of the party. He has to go, he hasn't accomplished a single thing either as minority and majority leader. He's also a terrible bullshitter. We're stuck with Pelosi as Speaker, but there's no reason why Reid should remain as senate leader. A couple of weeks ago, Hillary and Chris Dodd were seen as potential majority leaders. Now it's between Russ Feingold and Patrick Leahy. For me at least.
On last point. Senate Democrats must think the liberal blogs are as buch of fucking idiots, otherwise they wouldn't spouting that line of shit they came out with yesterday. Harry Reid in particular was insufferable.
Bill Clinton stumping for Jim Martin oo CNN. Fuck, this guy is good. Bar none, the greatest political saleman alive.
Time to feed the trolls:
PeteKent - "Do you know who else reformed Homeland Security? Hitler." Seriously, man, leave that weaksauce 4chan shit at home.
Mule Rider - Think you have an intellect superior to Nate's? There's an easy way to prove it: start your own website. Expound on your brilliant ideas there. If you're smarter than Nate, people will prefer reading your site to Nate's.
Ready, set, GO!
Most people that supported Obama are probably in accordance with this decision. I never saw any indication that Obama would do something different that what he ended up doing.
I do think we need Lieberman. But if he messes up again he will feel it in ways that we can't even imagine.
But if he messes up again he will feel it in ways that we can't even imagine.
HA!
2006: Run against the Democratic Party nominee for Senate. No problem!
2008: Campaign for the GOP presidential candidate and senate candidates. Slap on the wrist!
2010: Berate President Obama as anti-Israel and hound his administration with Whitewater-style witch-hunt investigations. Unimaginable consequences!
Andrew - exactly. Give a mouse a cookie...
That the Senate Dems took their cues from Obama doesn't frankly speak all that well to the way they run things in the Senate. Once Obama resigns from the Senate, his opinions, while interesting, shouldn't be relevant to the issues of how the Senate runs its affairs. That's what's got my panties in a wad.
I hope y'all are right, that Lieberman has been cowed and won't be a thorn in the side of the Senate or the Obama administration. But if history is any guide, it won't be that long before we get stabbed in the back again. The Senate seems to be quite good at writing sternly worded letters, but not at actual discipline. And believe me, the Senate Repubs are taking very good notes on how much they can get away with.
Obama has the upper hand here, make no mistake. Joe knows he has little room for being a spoiler. Just a glance at the map suggests more opportunities for offense. If Obama and his Congressional allies play the cards right, further Senate gains are probable in 2010. And, they may consider relinquishing his chairmanship(s) sooner if he really becomes that obstructive. In 2012, let's hope we can finally be done with him. CT voters apparently aren't too thrilled with him right now, with poor favorables/unfavorables...
And I should also add how stunning it is to me that people on this blog and others, who should know better, keep on thinking that this was a vote to keep Lieberman in the caucus. No! It was all about whether he should keep his Homeland Security chairmanship. And that's it. He should have been removed from that, definitively and without argument. Let him stay in the caucus by all means. But don't let him have his cookie.
And I also get a kick out of those here who are happy as punch that no 'revenge' was taken on Lieberman. Well, that's not true either - he was removed from some environmental subcommittee leadership position. Now you should ask yourself, why bother doing that, if you honestly believe in moving on and being all bipartisan and shit? Is that removal a punishment, retribution, revenge? Kinda sounds like it to me.
So those of you thinking that your side took the high road and said you don't believe in 'revenge' in this affair can get off your high horse, and recognize that you DO believe in revenge just like I do - it's just a matter of degree, apparently.
I guess I'll feel more comfortable when actually begins doing some of those positive things. Not sure yet whether Reconcilitation You Can Believe In is what I signed on for. However, Bush sure f..ed up with his political capital when he tried to change Social Security. Maybe this methodical approach to the presidency is going to take some time to get used to.
Another Mike said... "eric, why would Republicans ever vote to strip Lieberman of his chair?"
Not one of them has to. The question is whether all 40 of them would stand firm on a filibuster against it, shutting down motion on everything else to protect Joe. I doubt that very much.
"It's not an issue vote, where some Republicans might cross over. Stripping Lieberman is all about partsan politics and that's the one thing Republicans will not cross over on. Besides, even if you could get a Republican vote or two, what makes you think the Democratic caucus would vote in lock step."
Because, as you said, that's a partisan matter. Voting in lockstep on such things as chairmanships is what "party membership" is all about. Even if, within the caucus, there's a contentious fight for Banking Chair (or whatever) that splits 30 to 28, on the floor all 58 will vote for who the caucus picked: or else they're not in the caucus anymore.
Leaping forward,
Just heard from 350, and agree that Obama's recent moves on the environment and soliciting public opinion are ahead of the curve. We who are serious activists are being outflanked by his excellence!
Agree with 350.org, that is. And the public opinion Obama is soliciting is all the people who care, as well as experts.
This was a complete no-brainer from the start, it's just tiresome reading all the liberal bloggers outraged bla bla.
Let's see, what was their to gain by turning Joe into an enemy? Yes, satisfaction, but politically. Distraction, less coherence, a new flank of attack open to the right.
What's to be gained by leaving him in? He votes Democrat most of he time. He's now fairly bought. What, he'll rule on some homeland committee policy in a way you don't like. Basically: He'll disappear into a useful player ... he might even help McCain play nice.
What are the real issues??
Energy / Environment
Economy
Foreign policy / war
The rest is basically right-wing distractors.
I don't know about you, but I thought the change I was voting for was to get leaders with the courage of their convictions. Lieberman retaining his leadership position is not change, either literally (he was already a chairman) or effectively (he was an ineffective chairman, and a really bad Democrat).
Did you think he was kidding about that, "No red America. No blue America. United States of America," stuff? Those are his convictions. That's the change. You don't cast someone into the wilderness because he had the chutzpah to disagree with you, especially if you think he may be useful to you at a later date.
In short: Don't be a whiny bitch because you didn't get your pound of flesh. Washington is a tough town, and you shouldn't go out of your way to piss people off. If you just go about your business, you'll do that naturally.
Gee, Mason, so I'm "daft" and now a "whiny bitch" because I had the chutzpah to disagree with you?
For others who are actually participating in this comment thread instead of expressing repressed maturity issues through ad hominem attacks, I note only that the choice was not between "embrace" and "cast into the wilderness," but between allowing him to retain his committee chairmanship or not. And the back scratching old boys club that is the US Senate (the most exclusive club in the world!) decided not to embrace change and to leave in a leadership role someone who, I think even Mason would admit, embodies the opposite of the change we need.
And yeah, I've been saying for a while now that I'm afraid Obama will make good on his wild threats of bipartisan compromise. IMHO the way to lead is to, you know, go somewhere new and let others follow... but I'll reserve judgement until I see Obama push a health care or environmentalist bill through... or fail to do so, or water it down to impotence.
And I note again my "daft" point that Lieberman is a non-Republican from a Blue state, so anyone who says this represents bipartisanship is just using that term as a smokescreen for an internecine political power play.
While I trust you and Dean, think of the magnitude of damage to Joe's legacy if, out of pure spite, he's willing to vote against the two most important issues of both his career and the 21st century.
This is simply more of that red state fear-mongering practiced so well by the current crop of Democratic leaders to get what they want.
I can see Obama just wanting to stick a pacifier in Joe's mouth to shut him up. That actually makes sense in a painful way.
We're very fair and sensitive people we Democrats. It just isn't right that the brat got cookies and we didn't get nuthin, that's all we're sayin.
GaryB
Let's see, what was their to gain by turning Joe into an enemy?
Getting Joe "Obama's Ideas Are Dangerously Naive" Lieberman the hell away from a committee charged with government oversight.
What's to be gained by leaving him in? He votes Democrat most of he time. He's now fairly bought. What, he'll rule on some homeland committee policy in a way you don't like. Basically: He'll disappear into a useful player ... he might even help McCain play nice.
In 2006, he won over Democrats by promising to investigate the Bush administration's handling of the Katrina response and by committing himself to getting a Democrat elected president in 2008. As you may remember, he went back on both of those promises.
If he can lie to the people that voted him into vote, what makes you think he won't lie to Harry "Thank You Sir May I Have Another" Reid?
This will turn into a game of chicken, where Lieberman continues to fuck us over in an increasingly blatant fashion until we finally have to toss him from the chair mid-session, which will be infinitely tougher than doing it right now.
This was a dumbass lose-lose move by Reid, and Obama's progressive agenda (that he was elected to enact) will have to suffer for it.
I backed Obama 100% and was ecstatic the day after the election.
Now I feel uneasy:
1. Filling his administration with clintonoids is not change that we need.
2. Trembling before the "might" of Lieberman does not show strength. Obama is so damn fixated on including republicans that the minority party is going to have a tremendous amount of power. Obama is likely going to be cowering in the oval office in fear of the republicans accusations of partisanship. Obama is off to a weak and rocky start. He better find his balls, and soon. The election was all about a total rejection of republican policies and this pussy is kneeling at the feet of this redneck morons.
3. Speaking of no balls, he isn't going to hold Bush & co responsible for their treasonous actions. He can't talk about restoring justice when he is going to let the worst criminals in our nation's history get away with it.
So far he is showing that the democratic party still has no spine. It is depressing that only two weeks ago I thought this country was on the path to redemption and now it is obvious that we are going to get more of the same.
Instead of the fear mongering of Bush, we are going to get somewhat cheaper health care to distract us. It is clear that by many of the posts here that people are already distracted by it and they won't care what he does as long as he provides a slightly better health care system.
Same shit different president.
"they can take the gavel away in two years if he doesn't behave"
He can do a ton of damage in two years, and what makes you think that the spineless democrats will finally stand up to something?
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Ass Rider- A retarded monkey is more intelligent then you. Your insanity seems to increase at a rate proportional to the fame and the amount of money he gets from his book deal.
You need to deal with your jealously. Did you really expect someone to offer you a book deal based on your ignorant bipolar rantings?
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