According to the latest counts provided by the Star Tribune and the Minnesota Secretary of State, Republican Norm Coleman appears to have expanded his narrow lead over Al Franken on Day 4 of the recount process. The Star Tribune now puts Coleman's lead at 180 votes, and the Secretary of State, 167 votes. (The Star Tribune's tally appears to be inclusive of all of the Secretary of State figures and is probably the more authoritative estimate). Coleman's lead had been 215 votes before the recount process began, but had become as small as 115-120 votes at other stages of the recount process.
It is unclear, however, whether the running counts provided by the Star Tribune and Secretary of State are any longer providing useful information. This is because the percentage of challenged ballots has now reached epidemic levels. Among the relatively small number of ballots added today to the Secretary of State's nightly estimate, the Coleman campaign challenged 14.2 ballots for every 10,000 cast, and the Franken campaign 12.2 for every 10,000 cast. This rate of challenges was almost twice that observed in Friday's counting, and 4-5 times as much as in the first two days of ballot counting on Wednesday and Thursday.
With the rate of challenges running this high, it may be impossible to glean whether either side is in fact making progress in the recount.
Suppose that there is some relatively large number of cases in Hennepin County (which Franken won by 100,000 votes on Election Day) in which ballots regarded by the optical scanners as undervotes in fact show some indication of voter intent for Franken. However, these ballots run along a spectrum from those where the ballot is completed almost perfectly, to those where there is only the faintest indication of voter intent. If the Coleman campaign is challenging virtually every instance in which an election judge rules that there was in fact voter intent for Franken, and the Franken campaign simultaneously is challenging virtually every instance in which the judge rules that there was not clear enough evidence of voter intent, then both sides will rack up high numbers of challenges. All of these ballots, for the time being, are being reported as non-votes. When the canvassing board evaluates them in December, however, only Franken can gain ground, as they will either be ruled to be legitimate votes cast for Franken, or will continue to be regarded as non-votes.
The reason I bring this up is because almost all of Franken's advantage on Election Day came from three large counties -- Hennepin (Minneapolis), Ramsey (St. Paul) and Saint Louis (Duluth). In two of these three counties, however -- Hennepin and Saint Louis -- Coleman rather than Franken has thus far gained ground in the recount, by 30 and 22 votes respectively. In Ramsey County, on the other hand, Franken has gained a net of 35 votes -- but the rate of challenges has been much lower in Ramsey County because of a gentleman's agreement in force between the two sides to avoid frivolous challenges.
What I am suggesting, in other words, is that Ramsey County, with its lower rate of challenges, may represent the more natural state of affairs, and that Franken is in fact likely to gain quite a bit of ground in Hennepin and Saint Louis counties once challenges in those jurisdictions are resolved. Remember, either Coleman or Franken may wind up challenging potential Franken undervotes, depending on the initial ruling of the local elections judge. Likewise, either Franken or Coleman may wind up challenging potential Coleman undervotes.
Of course, there may be other areas in which Coleman is likely to gain ground. Franken issued 51 challenges to Coleman's 7 in Meeker County, for instance, a relatively small county won by Coleman on Election Day, and 26 challenges to Coleman's 11 in Mille Lacs County, which also went for Coleman. Almost certianly, a large percentage of Franken's challenges in these counties are frivolous.
Minnesota's recount, generally speaking, has gone smoothly, and is a model for how other states should adjudicate their recount process. I believe, however, that Minnesota has made a significant mistake by reporting all challenged ballots as being non-votes until the canvassing board has a chance to rule on them. This creates a strong incentive to issue frivolous challenges, one which both campaigns have apparently wised up to. A better way to report the results would be to list the ruling of the local elections official as the default; this would provide for a more honest indication of those cases where the canvassing board in fact determines to overrule the judgment of the local official. Alternatively or additionally, the state could disincentive frivolous challenges by providing photocopies of all challenges online, making them subjects of potential ridicule.
Until such time as the the state changes its reporting process, or the incidence of challenges drops to a healthier level (such as was observed on Wednesday and Thursday), the running counts reported by the Star Tribune and the Secretary of State should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
11.22.2008
Amid Epidemic of Challenges, Coleman Appears to Expand Lead
by Nate Silver @ 10:10 PM
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109 comments
"This is because the percentage of challenged ballots has now reached epidemic levels."
Your fault.
That's a bit of a liberal use of the phrase 'strong incentive'. Most people (i.e. those who are not following this recount like a live sporting event) will accept the result after the challenged votes have been adjudicated making frivolous challenges irrelevant.
Off topic, but of interest, I hope!
Obama 68,064,743 52.83%
McCain 59,003,576 45.80%
These reflect official results in many states, most recent unofficial results from states where available, and counts from other sources for the few where no state governmental stats are available.
So, over 9 million (barely) and just over 7% margin for Obama.
This will inch up a bit more as Illinois, Pacific northwest, and other results are completed or fully certified.
Best,
Dave Yandell
The strong incentive is due to the procedure itself. You challenge a ballot, maybe it will change the way its counted. You don't challenge a ballot, it will still be counted for your opponent.
I can't see any other way of counting a ballot once it is challenged except as a non-vote. We don't know whether or not it is a vote until the canvasing board decides on its fate.
I guess there could be someway to prevent frivolous challenges, but what's frivolous? Again, the canvasing board has to decide that too. Maybe charge the campaign a dime for each frivolous challenge? That way, the canvasing board can get some coffee. They're going to have a really long day.
So those predicting outcome should give up because the percentage of challenges are so high that a small difference in quality of challenges can itself change the outcome?
Mower County (Austin, pop 23K), Winona County (Winona, pop 27K) and Blue Earth County (Mankato, pop 32K) start have yet to start recounting. Each of these counties (and cities) lean left by about 5-10% (Mower leans farther left than Winona and Blue Earth). Austin's liberal bent is labor related, while Winona's and Mankato'sare a result of the presence of large state universities.
These counties are getting younger and more diverse. Each experienced high first-time voter turnout. It would seem that there is the chance for these two relatively large counties to have a disproportionate number of franken pickups due to voter error where intent is determinable upon recount.
These are definitely second-tier counties in terms of population (for comparison, St. Louis County's Duluth has a population of about 86K), but they might have enough challengable votes to make a real difference in the recount.
I guess that EVERY vote does count.
Indeed. With the campaign's combined legal teams being larger than the total margin of votes, They should either have no reporting until after the challenges have been reviewed, default to the pre-challenge result, or more comprehensive reporting, with the pre-challenge results, plus who's challenging how many of what type of ballot.
MINNEAPOLIS
Why is it taking so long in Minnie? Its still only at 35 percent of the city having been counted. Weird.
I can't see any other way of counting a ballot once it is challenged except as a non-vote. We don't know whether or not it is a vote until the canvasing board decides on its fate.
There are two states it could end up in, either a vote or a non-vote. Why is counting it as a non-vote more appropriate than counting it as a vote?
The incentive comes from the PR value of being perceived as winning, and the possibility that that perception could influence the judgment of those deciding on ballots. It appears that the current reporting procedure is predicated on the assumption that all challenges are being made in good faith, because in that case, it's reasonably likely that challenged ballots will be reversed. However, it opens up the count to being gamed by a competitor who is not challenging in good faith, which is where the perverse incentive enters into it.
If challenged ballots were not removed from the official counts until the challenge was resolved, then there would be no incentive to make frivolous challenges, because the challenger would know they were likely to fail, and they would not get the PR/psychological influence on the process. So in a situation where the initial tallies are done competently and in good faith, keeping challenged ballots in the count until they are resolved is better because it does not to disadvantage legitimate challenges (since, as you say, they will either end up as votes or non-votes) but does not reward frivolous challengers. So I think I'm with Nate on this one.
Nate, I was just curious what led you to think the Strib is more authoritative than the SoS? Any insight you have about that would be greatly appreciated.
One possible way to report challenged ballots that would improve the ability to predict the outcome might be to classify them as follows:
- voter intent ruled for candidate A
- voter intent ruled for candidate B
- voter intent ruled for other candidates
- voter intent ruled to be for more than one candidate (overvote)
- voter intent ruled to be for no candidate (undervote)
and
- ruling challenged by candidate A
- ruling challenged by candidate B
This information has to be available already - the ruling is recorded with the vote, and the challenger is recorded. Publishing images potentially reveals people's identities, but publishing the counts would not seem to be unreasonable.
With this information we could get a better idea of which direction the recount is going. Without this information it will be very hard to tell. That said, I think a reasonable case has been made that Franken stands to gain more than Coleman in the process.
it might have been better for the state not to release daily totals.
but frankly if it were my campaign i would be out there contesting almost anything. i cant think of anything either candidate would lose by contesting zealously.
does anyone else agree with nate that the totals are now meaningless?
also what about those absentees? any chance those rejected will be put back?
ABSENTEES
Yes, there is a more likely than not chance that they will be included because one court has already agreed to it. Whether it will help Franken, since Coleman seems to maybe leaning that way too, is unclear. However, apparently a lot of people think it will help??
Does the fact that Coleman has lost 669 votes from his original total and Franken has lost 621 suggest that the profile of challanged ballots for the two campaigns is similar? If Nate's Hennepin County hypothetical illustration were true, wouldn't Coleman's lost votes likely be significantly fewer than Frankens? Seems to me this isn't looking good for Franken.
Nate: According to the Star, the agreement in Ramsay county has been undone, and all the previous challenges re-instated.
At his own initiative, former elections supervisor Joe Mankey talked to both campaign workers and narrowed the number of challenges.
But, then word came down from the state to "punt all the challenges up to the canvassing board."
"So," said Mankey, "that's what we're doing now."
This means that we have absolutely NO idea who's really ahead or by how much!
Mankey had gotten his "gentlemen's agreement" by telling both sides that he was "100% sure that I'll win these challenges." He thought they were all frivolous.
If Mankey is right that almost all the challenges will ultimately be defeated at the Canvassing Board level.
But, we don't know what that will mean because we don't know how many challenges are by one campaign against the other side's voters and how many are by a campaign trying to save THEIR votes from being tossed by the elections board.
Obviously losing the first type of challenge adds one vote to your opponent's total. Losing the second type of challenge makes NO change at all because those "lost votes" weren't counted in the official tally and after the board upholds the election judges won't be counted in the final tally either.
So, it all comes down to how many challenges of the other sides' voters each campaign makes.
I still don't see any real advantage for Coleman in making a lot of frivolous challenges.
They're going to lose them all or nearly all.
After all, there are only so many ways a voter can spoil their ballot and they will fall into categories.
And the canvassing board will decide a uniform approach to all such challenges, no matter how many there are. They will all or virtually all get decided ONE WAY.
So, for instance, ALL instances where the voter filled in one oval, then crossed it out and filled in the other will be counted.
All ballots where there is a stray mark except directly identifying marks (such as a finger-print or initials) will count.
All ballots where the voter made an "X" or circled the candidate's name rather than filling in the oval will count.
All cases where the voter made a mark in one oval but completely filled in the other (often caused by the voter tapping her pen on the ballot while pondering her vote) will count.
Etc.
And once you decide a uniform practice so that all such ballots are given equal treatment, then many challenges will be resolved the same way.
We just don't know how many "lost vote" challenges there were. Since these won't change anything, they can be discounted.
But, since both sides will lose virtually all their challenges to the other side's ballots, the one that makes more such challenges will probably lose.
@dyandell:
Could you post a link for your national popular vote numbers?
Jack, I would have to say no. That would only be true if most challenges are just to keep from votes being thrown out.
We know that some number of challenges have been made to change the votes from Franken to Coleman, or from undervote to Coleman, where the voter did not vote straight Republican party line. If this is a significant number of Coleman challenges, and those are overturned, those Coleman challenged ballots will move to the Franken column.
This is another case of not enough information about the spread of the challenged ballots.
WV: doitted: When he asked his manager for a reason for the busywork, he was doitted... "Just do it!"
Of course, the logical thing to do would be to have challenged votes adjudicated immediately, instead of piling them all up for December. Could they really not afford to get whatever official does this to do it at the end of each day's counting, instead of in a fortnight?
Cugel
It's kind of pointless, but haven't you repeatedly been proven wrong on this? We have no idea what the challenges are. You should have stopped there. The rest is speculation thaty ou can't substantiate. No one can.
If Coleman's going after the McCain/Franken votes, this is probably a good sign for Franken. Looks like Coleman wants to make sure he's ahead before the canvassing board to cast a "cloud of doubt" and politicize the process.
Who is Number 2 -- Sooners or Gators?
If you look precinct by precinct in Hennepin, it looks like a lot of challenges by the Franken campaign (but not most) are attempts to add Franken votes.
Everywhere else it seems the challenges are mostly to strike.
My personal guess is that once the challenges are adjudicated Franken will pick up a LOT of votes in the Big Three. Coleman will pick up a few votes in the suburban counties. And the rural counties will mostly end up where the machine count was.
I will say that when MPR showed some challenges, there were actually a couple Franken challenges to Coleman votes that should easily be upheld.
Both had challenges to add votes that could be upheld.
And both had challenges (of both sorts) that will clearly be rejected.
But I've yet to see (of the couple dozen ballots I've seen) a Coleman challenge to strike a Franken vote that has a prayer of being upheld.
A couple of links that show how frivolous some of the challenges have been on both sides.
http://the-uptake.groups.theuptake.org/en/videogalleryView/id/1341/
http://flickr.com/photos/minnesotademocratsexposed/sets/72157609712577287/show/
John:
It's a board consisting of four judges and the secretary of state. Not only is constantly shipping five people from precinct to precinct to precinct impractical (as would be constantly sending a steady stream of ballots from all over the state to a central location), but the secretary of state is very busy doing things other than adjudicating challenges right now. You could argue judges could take a couple weeks to adjudicate a recount, but even that seems a bit unreasonable.
What really needs to be changed is that we should be given the raw, unchallenged hand count and be told what kind of challenges are being made by which candidate's representatives.
The recount will be unreliable until all the challenged ballots are adjudicated. I blame the Coleman camp for starting the frenzy, then Franken's people had to follow suit or lose the psy-ops game. It's a pretty pitiful way to run a recount.
@CellLout
Thanks, that makes sense. But SoS+4 judges? Wow, seems like overkill to me. I'm Australian, and we have an independent Electoral Commission that conducts elections, and at post-election time, the Commission's most senior staff DON'T have better things to do than get the count in. The idea of a recount of a single state taking over a month, even with recounts, is not something I'm used to.
We had a seat in our recent election which went one way by just 7 votes, and by 12 the other way on recount, and despite very heavy oversight by both parties, it was declared in three weeks.
From everything I've read I would bet that no more than a total of 10 (ten) challenges will be upheld by the state-wide canvassing board. Out of maybe 10,000+. Ten.
So, the nature of the challenges is important. To the extent they are "knock out" challenges, which place into limbo a vote for a specific candidate, the canvassing board decision will restore that vote to the candidate whom the voter intended to vote for. To the extent they are votes that a candidate wants but wasn't awarded by the precinct judges ("faint hopes"), that candidate will be SOL.
Since we have absolutely no way of knowing which challenges are which, despite clever efforts to ascertain a pattern, this election is completely in the air.
If we knew which challenges were "knock outs" and which were "faint hopes" we could figure out a trend, based on the fact that an extremely small (less than 1%) number of challenges will be upheld. But we can't. So we have insufficient information to predict anything.
As Niels Bohr once said. Prediction is difficult. Especially of the future. It's even more difficult to predict anything when you don't have sufficient information.
Texas will be #2 because they beat Oklahona by 10 points at a neutral site and Texas lost to Tech in Lubbock with one second left. However, Texas and Oklahoma may play for the National Championship depending on the Big 12 and the SEC championship reults. The BCS still remembers the Texas USC Championship game.
I'm afraid I can't convince myself that the results so far are meaningless. More surprisingly neither can Nate.
The Strib site gives data on challenges too. Coleman's campaign has only challenged 28 more ballots than Franken's. As an extreme hypothesis, suppose all challenges are ruled frivolous. Then we get Franken will gain 63 not 35 votes out of those precincts for which preliminary results are reported. With 68% of votes recounted, I don't see how one can avoid placing the probability of Sen Franken near 50%. (no I don't see how 206-35 = 180 either, I guess that the strib had the post recanvass Coleman lead at 215 for some reason).
Most strikingly have been almost exactly equal numbers of challenges by the campaigns in Hennepin county so far 254 and 252 thus the ratio of Franken challenges to Coleman votes is significantly higher than the ratio of Coleman challenges to Franken votes.
Now the Coleman challenges might be more frivolous on average. However, it is hard to give a story about first time voters or whatever that implies that there are systematically more Franken ballots that were missed by the scanners yet systematically more Coleman ballots that can be legitimately challenged.
If the distribution frivolity of the challenges by the two campaigns is similar, further upswings in challenge rates are clearly wholly frivolous challenges ,and if the 2 thirds recounted were typical of the whole state (which they aren't but I don't see any patters to who gains where) then one can calculate odds.
So far there are 1982 challenges. Change + challenges equals number of votes where the optical scanner recorded no vote which are at least debated now. so 635 new possible votes detected. I think the assumption that gives probabilities of victory closest to 50% is that these are two seperate sets of ballots (all challenges are of ballots counted by the scanners).
Forecasts assuming that the remaining third have the same distributions as the currently counted 2 thirds. 318 new votes detected on ballots where the scanners reported no vote and a total of 2973 challenges (not counting the extra challenges from increasingly furious frivolity beyond the current level of frivolity which I assume will be rejected out of hand).
Expected Franken gains at end of recount 95 (just 1.5 times gains so far). Maximum possible variance of number of challenges rejected about 743 (for each challenge has a 50 50 chance and I assume that all challenges are between for Coleman and no vote or between vote for Franken or no vote). Maximum possible variance of "newly detected vote is for Franken minus newly detected vote is for Coleman" less than 318 (this is if there are no newly detected votes for 3rd candidates). so total variance of change 1061 so standard error about 10 and Franken is over ten standard errors short of the Senate.
Franken's hope depends on systematic differences between re-counted and non recounted precincts and systematic differences in the degree of frivolity of challenges.
Variance in change Franken minus Coleman
@Robert. Good try, but the try doesn't get you anywhere. Assume ALL challenges will be overruled. The key then becomes which challenges were "knock out" challenges. They will all be promoted to votes. The "faint hope" challenges will all be disallowed. "Knock out" challenges will increase the vote count. "Faint hopes" won't/
So, which challenges were which -- information we do not have -- is determinative.
And Oklahoma should be 2nd because of the "style points" in the overwhelming victory over TTech. (I don't like Texas teams as a general rule.)
Hi, Nate
Just wanted to say that you are providing the best coverage in the country, by far, of the recount process. Thank you, and I hope you get credit for it.
@John: That recount in Australia was for a single parliamentary seat. The land area and number of votes involved were each less than 5% of the sizes we're dealing with in MN.
This is another excellent post by Nate. FWIW, I disagree somewhat with the conventional wisdom of where Franken stands to gain the most votes to make up the difference.
CW thus far has been Hennepin and Ramsey, the blue strongholds. But in the slanted challenge field that both campaign recognize very well (and, I might add, recognized from the outset, and not just after Thursday results), Franken stands to gain more in the preliminary recount in the RED counties.
Here is why: in blue counties there are more opportunities for Coleman to challenge. In the red counties, there are more challenge opportunities for Franken. In the heavily red Washington county, even with very reserved Franken challenges we came out almost at the same challenge number as Coleman. Counting the heavily red precincts that went by a large margin for Coleman that subtlety becomes more apparent. There are more challenge opportunities for us in RED.
So, as we approach the end of the recount, save for the three counties around Rochester, imho we will see more actual gain opportunities, albeit more temporarily (until the Canvassing Board meets on the 19th), for the good guys.
FWIW,
~ Latte
@Mark Ludwick
I know that, but most of the first fortnight was taken up sitting around waiting for postals to come in, and the the recount was done in about two days.
Population isn't that relevant. More population = more votes, and also = more vote counters. Here, local, state and federal elections all take about the same time to declare, as the whole process just scales up nicely.
The delay in MN seems not to be recounting, but getting the Sec. of State and judges involved. Without having to go up to that level, the people who finalise the count could be working now, and the vote finalised as fast as it can be recounted.
Actually, this is not a RECOUNT at all, as most of us understand the term. It's simply a recanvassing to find those ballots which MIGHT be recounted by the state board later. The total number of challenges does give some information however: it's our best estimate on the total pool of votes that MIGHT change. I always (as did others) assumed that would be less than or equal to the presidential undervote in MN and that seems to be the case. The number of challenges also seems to match the obvious assumption that there would be more residual votes in the largest counties. If the pool ends up at around 3000 (as I predicted before things started) then Franken will need to win a significantly higher number of those challenges than he won on election day in his best (the largest) counties to have a chance of winning.
I don't know how one can see these pictures:
http://flickr.com/photos/minnesotademocratsexposed/sets/72157609712577287/show/
And not conclude that there are at least as many frivolous Franken challenges as Coleman challenges. I don't believe the challenges will change the final total that much. However, it looks like there may be 10k+ rejected absentees. If these are re-considered, they could change everything. Nate, can you speak to this?
(And why the heck aren't there any conservative sites with this much election knowledge? I feel embarrassed for my side.)
Lots of blame to go around for how confusing the recount is starting with the opinions in Bush-Gore which has encouraged this type of procedure.
Because we don't have professional non-partisan election authorities (unlike other countries like Australia), Minnesota has decided to use sitting judges to guarantee the impartiality of the canvassing board. Since they have a day job, the time for doing the canvass has to be worked into their schedules (otherwise a lot of people are going to have to wait for their day in court).
Folks need to remember that the canvass is being done precinct by precinct (which is the one advantage of the SoS site where you can look at each completed precinct). There is one counting team for each precinct. When they finish one precinct, they start the next. (The disadvantage of the SoS site is that they update once a day at 8 pm and only with what has been reported to them. The MST update multiple times a day and gets results from each county as they are posted in that county.)
In doing it precinct by precinct, they are making five stacks. If you wanted to clarify the nature of the challenge, you could do more stacks. I am not convinced that gives you better information without knowing more about the challenges. The only thing that you would know for certain is which candidate had more potential votes from the challenges. But you would note know the validity of the challenges.
If you go to the MPR site, you can see both valid challenges (about 5 of them) and invalid challenges (about 10 of them). We don't know if that breakdown accurately reflects the state as a whole. Some of those valid challenges overrule decisions to award votes to a candidate, but others overrule decisisons not to award votes.
Anyone looking at the numbers could have told you that Fillmore was a likely hotbed of frivolous Coleman challenges, Meeker of frivolous Franken challenges, Carlton of frivolous Coleman challenges, Benton of frivolous challenges by both sides, Steele of Frivolous Coleman challenges, etc, etc.
Looking at the precinct data, Hennepin, Ramsey and St. Louis are all hotbeds of frivolous challenges as well.
That in one county (Fillmore in Coleman's case or Meeker in Franken's case), the frivolous challenges have been posted on the Internet doesn't tell us anything at all about the quality and sort of challenges in the rest of the state.
I'd also argue that the Fillmore challenges are much, much more obnoxious.
In Meeker, a stupid Franken challenger took it upon himself to challenge every poorly filled out Coleman ballot, even when the intent was crystal clear.
In Fillmore, a stupid Coleman challenger decided to challenge perfectly filled out ballots because he or she didn't like how they voted, and no other reason.
Robert--
You are trying to reason through zero data, which is crazy. Don't bet on Intrade with that logic.
The rate of challenges is increasing exponentially, and challenges are intended to mask the initial count obviously. Clearly filled in ovals are being cast aside in many cases.
We do not know how many of the Franken challenges are for undervotes for him to gain and how many are Coleman challenges to take away a Franken vote. And likewise in reverse with respect to Coleman.
Clearly the recount is less than the machine count by 4-5 times the margin of the difference in the election.
That means that we don't know shit from shinola.
Robert, you are assuming each side is playing the game the same way, which is not likely the case else the challenges would not be increasing exponentially.
The strategy Coleman is using is all about TIME. Chuck as many votes as possible for Franken in the challenge pile and keep the thing close to 150 difference. Coleman doesn't want MN, America in general, and Franken to know the real count for as long as possible.
(Though I think the Franken team knows the stats but does not want to release them other than to say they are within double digits. The public may think Franken is full of shit and doesnt know the stats but that is the state of the thing presently.)
Knowledge of the real count makes it easier to determine what kind of standard you need to determine voter intent in a way for your side to win. This is the next battle in the recount the State Canvassing Board's rules.
More cynically, imagine the court cases to follow where determining voter intent may be brought before the US Supreme court. If Coleman can throw out the ability of a State to determine voter intent then he wins according to the pre-recount totals.
Robert
I think you have a lot of trouble understanding that not just the frivolity of challenges but also the TYPE of challenges (whether they are attempts to add votes to your own column or subtract them from your opponent's column) makes a HUGE difference.
Remember, when a challenge to add a vote is rejected, there is no net change. When a challenge to subtract an opponents vote is rejected, your opponent gains a net vote.
I think the big Franken counties have fairly large numbers of challenges intended to add Franken votes, particularly Hennepin. If this is true, Franken stands to gain more than Coleman in the canvass, even if all challenges are equally frivolous.
@Cugel
It's the Minneapolis Star Tribune, not "Star".
@merzbow
The fact that a right-wing blog posts some photos of frivolous challenges by the Franken team tells you absolutely nothing about the relative numbers of frivolous challenges.
@Reid
Of course. I was responding obliquely to the many posters who have presented the DailyKos-linked video and other pictures from left-wing sites as evidence that Coleman is the one issuing most of the frivolous challenges. My overall point is there is hard evidence of gross frivolity on both sides, so we can't say much more until we actually start to see the results of the challenge rulings next month, or unless absentees are recounted.
Lizard people may be running our government guys that is all we know about the MN recount right now.
merzbow:
Don't be a Michelle Bachman and lie about what you just said when it's recorded and in plain view for everyone to see.
You said that it's impossible not to conclude "there are at least as many frivolous Franken challenges as Coleman challenges".
You didn't say "there is evidence of frivolous challenges on both sides," which would be true.
As far as we know, Coleman (or Franken) has far more frivolous challenges. All we know is that both have at least a few.
5% Difference In Canvassing Board Decision
Let's say the final numbers challenged is 3000 (which is possible given the numbers).
Let's say that the final difference is less than 150 favoring Coleman. This is part explains the Coleman challenge increase.
The challenges that add to Franken's vote count would have to only be 5 percent more than Coleman and the Franken response.
This is why we have no idea. The higher the numbers of challenges, the lower percentage difference between which candidate wins by just percentage of approves ballots by the canvass board. It's not going to be 100. Mostly what I have seen is almost all. Now I am starting to see more outlandish claims. but generally it's been a high percentage. A high percentage isn't the same as all.
The question becomes what percentage now of those challenges by both are deemed frivolous, and that number does not need to be a huge one to now substantively shift outcomes. I am guessing that number will not be around 5 percent of challenges need to be lost by Coleman versus Franken. But who knows- I am guessing too.
This is why it's becoming impractical to guess because a shift of 5 percent now is within (as I remember) the range possible.
This is , I believe, at the heart of Nate's analysis. We are losing predictive ability from the count alone as the challenges increases because as the challenges increases - either candidate can win with a small shift of who wins the challenges. There is a small chance of exactly same outcomes, but that's not likely.
I hope this makes sense. It just occured to me mathamatically why that numbers now are confusing.
@CellLout
I stopped reading after your first sentence. I don't come here to be an ass, or to correspond with asses. Have a nice day (and this will be the last time I respond in any way to posts of that nature).
merzbow
I, too, would likely cower if caught in such an obvious lie.
Fortunately, I don't lie, so it's not a problem that presents itself much to me.
Coleman may be losing ground. Why else is he throwing so many challenges out there? If he was not worried then he would only challenge the undervote and not subtract from Franken so much. This caused Franken to have to adopt the same tact to keep up with Coleman's frivolous challenges. Now Coleman is challenging more which will insight Franken to challenge more. What a spectacle.
Isn't it time for some dweeb to say this is good news for John McCain?
While part of this is because I am from MN, and of course, believe my state is the 3rd best state in the country, I think you are wrong.
It might encourage BS challengers, but in this case it's better to err on the side of caution. The most important thing is that the end result be accurate not what happens in the interim.
Is it too far-fetched to say that a run-off might actually have come cheaper than the recount and its gazillion lawyers?
When the canvassing board meets, does anyone know if they plan on televising the proceedings? Doing so might help validate the eventual winner if the public is given a chance to see that deliberations over ballot challenges were fair and impartial.
Nice work. Best site EVER.
Nate-
How about a study of challenges before and after you said challenges were a good thing? I believe there has been a gigantic rate of increase after you said being ahead going to the SoS was a good thing...
As I said yeaterday, the data means essentially nothing with this challenge rate, glad Nate agrees.
Dear Mr. Silver,
Do you think your suggestions that Franken observers were being "too nice" and/or that there is a "strong incentive" to challenge ballots given MN recount rules has actually affected the trajectory of the rate of challenges in this recount, the behavior of the two campaigns, and ultimately the outcome of this election? If so will you feel at all responsible for any part you might have had in the disenfranchisement of vulnerable voters by lawyers?
Do not get me wrong-
As far as I am concerned this site is FANTASTIC.
"All hail good data analysis"- your work is remarkable and greatly appreciated.
But the election of federal and high level state officials in the United States IS NOT professional sports nor is it actually a game. I am very disturbed by the over use of "game theory" type analysis that permeates so much of academics and informed discussion in general. I am afraid that as the more we allow a win-lose world view to invade and dominate our psyches we will all suffer.
I wish you had made your second second suggestion:
"A better way to report the results would be to list the ruling of the local elections official as the default; this would provide for a more honest indication of those cases where the canvassing board in fact determines to overrule the judgment of the local official."
first.
It is a suggestion that is more about getting an accurate read on the vote count than about how to win a game. And just a reminder ELECTIONS should not be games. Yet I am afraid the more they are treated as games the more they will become games.
I ask with all sincerity- please take off your sports fan hat off and lock it away before you post on elections.
Again thank you for your work and this site. Thanks to Sean and Brett too. It is great too have people like you working hard to get reliable information out to people who can use it.
best-mhz
there is no reliable data from which to extrapolate any sensible conclusions
there won't be any for a couple of weeks
how about an update on early voting in GA? People need a number fix, and are getting it from MN - and it's fuelling the wildest forms of speculation. Real numbers from GA, please.
PS Nate had Franken at 52% before election day. Nobody has come up with anything that makes that look wrong (so far). We just have to *wait*.
Thanks, dyandell, for the latest overall numbers.
As pointed out, McCain is on 45.8% at the moment. It'll be interesting to see if the final results show him dropping down to 45% (rounded to the nearest whole percent).
mhz-
All good, but to think the candidates do not view this as simply a game, and a job, or at least most of them, is foolish.
Nate did change the number of challenged ballots, but in the end it will not matter one wit as the same out come will occur - the challenged ballots will be handled in a nearly identical way at the state level as they would have been at the local level.
When a race is this close, there is no objective winner. The winner is subjective, decided by the Secretary of State, judges, and the Senate.
And it is a game at some level, albeit a serious one.
Previously we were told that the precincts being counted this weekend trended Democratic, so it stands to reason that the number of Coleman challenges would increase.
So, with 2.86 million votes cast, and a difference of 2 per 10,000 challenges, most of which will be rejected, it looks like a pickup of 572 = (2.86 * 100 * 2) for Franken at the top end of the range.
ptinese: a group of very small, yappy people with fluffy body hair recently discovered on an island off New Guinea.
"reelgeist said...
Cugel
It's kind of pointless, but haven't you repeatedly been proven wrong on this? We have no idea what the challenges are. You should have stopped there. The rest is speculation thaty ou can't substantiate. No one can."
What are you attacking me for? Haven't I said just this? That with the information we now have there's no way to tell who's really ahead?
As for the description of ballot challenges, do you think I'M posing as an election expert on Minnesota law when I don't even practice law there?
Joe Mankey, the guy who's being quoted every day in the Minneapolis-St. Paul Star-Tribune as "probably the State's leading elections expert" described all the types of ballot challenges he's seeing in Ramsay county.
He said "we see this every election cycle" -- referring to the overvotes where one oval is filled in and then crossed out and the other filled in.
HE's the one who said that those small marks on one oval with the other one filled in were due to the voter "tapping her pen" while pondering the ballot, before filling in the other oval. He also said that voter intent in such cases was "clear" and that all such ballots would be counted.
He also said that all the "identifying marks" ballots "should be counted" unless it's clear that the voter intended to leave an I.D. such as initials or a fingerprint.
I didn't make that stuff up out of my head you know!
He said that he's "100% certain" he's going to win every ballot challenge in his county.
I quoted his article and linked to it on this site 2 days ago. He's quoted in just about every article on that Star site, and Nate and Sean have linked to it in every thread on this topic.
Now, maybe this guy is full of it. But, he's supposedly the state's "leading expert" so I'm relying on him until I see some information that he's wrong.
And NO I haven't "been proven wrong" on anything! WTF are you talking about?
I think all these people blaming Nate for (or crediting him with) the exponential increase in vote challenges are missing the point. The reason for the "arms race" in challenges is structural -- the way challenges are reported creates naturally leads to such an escalation. Nate merely had the prescience to know that this would be the case and point it out on his blog. He is no more responsible for this than the few wise people who pointed out the dangers of mortgage-backed securities are responsible for the current financial crisis.
@dyandell:
Latest numbers on Wikipedia:
Obama 67,981,686 52.77%
McCain 59,082,002 45.86%
Your numbers have 83,057 more votes for Obama and 78,426 fewer votes for McCain (compared to Wikipedia).
Could you please post a link to your numbers? Thanks!
cugel, fwiw, *I* think you are right, even if reelgeist is still feuding with you.
Nate's commentary is clear and well-informed. I would challenge one thing though -- use of the word "frivolous." My interpretation of that word is "utterly without value." I think a more accurate descriptive term is "low probability." There is no incentive to challenge something you have no chance on. Above that, even minimally credible changes are all gravy.
MN said...
While part of this is because I am from MN, and of course, believe my state is the 3rd best state in the country,
Dear MN,
which states are 1st and 2nd best?
True brilliance
Let me add a strong second, or third, or... to Nate's suggestion about reporting the local official determination as the default. This is the logical standard for media reporting on this story.
Why? It basically takes away all the positioning and spin that each campaign would otherwise engage in. For example, "the canvassing board is biased because it approved a higher percentage of A's chanllenges than B's." If there is any canvassing board lean, which I very highly doubt, the deviation from local determination would be a much better measure.
...and because of the transparency of the measure, if the canvassing board did so deviate, there would be a strong incentive to provide a straightforward explanation.
Fred and Kenny B-
Points taken and appreciated-
But honestly I have taught science at the high school and college level and have seen how we inculcate almost ALL of our children into a culture of win-lose sports or American Idol competitions rather than a culture of analysis, critical thinking, and problem solving.
As far as I can tell Nate and the group at 538 have brought some of the best tools and aspects of the scientific process to the "universe" of political punditry and more importantly(imho), grassroots political communities. I would hate them to be caught in a cultural ideology that prevents them from breaking more ground.
On another topic- I am not sure I am going have the stomach to visit 538 during an election cycle (like 2000 or 2004) in which the numbers and projects indicate that we are a coin toss away from a dangerous administration from take the office of the president. Maybe with improved channels of information we can avoid that in the future.
happy holidays
MHZ is kinda right. There are three hats any reasonable person should be able to wear in a situation like this: partisan, game-theorist, and citizen. The partisan is rooting for one side, the game theorist is objectively looking at the incentives, and the citizen is rooting for democracy. Each one has to understand the lower ones, but the citizen is the highest and should take precedence. That means understanding the game theory, but always clearly framing it as subsidiary to the goal of citizenship.
If you did that, you could have seen beyond the silly incentives. What if Franken had maintained a factor of 3 or 4 fewer challenges than Coleman? The count would be 700 votes for Coleman right now, but with Franken saying "My count is in single digits and I think I can win", it would be clear who was playing games. And when the judges ruled and the count moved to the true numbers, Franken would have a lot more legitimacy for whatever his next move is, whether that is taking some absentee ballots to court or just starting to govern or starting work on his next book.
One reason for "frivolous" challenges that I don't think has been mentioned -- Responding to rulings & challenges in other counties.
If, in one county, certain types of votes are being ruled as valid and are being ruled as invalid in other counties (and that seems to be the case from some of the ballots posted on MPR), it makes sense to challenge both even if you think you know which county is correctly applying the rule. If you are right, the meritorious challenge succeeds and the "frivolous" challenge fails. But, if you are wrong and don't make the frivolous challenge, you lose both.
cool update on the prez vote count dyandall. it looks like there's an outside shot that Obama will reach 70 million votes - that'd be a cool level to reach for political capital reasons.
I have been of the opinion that the difference in challenges would equal a difference in votes. It looks like that theory would give the Senate seat to Coleman. Is it possible that more of Franken's challenges will be upheld? I guess so, but I don't know what to base that on.
Is there any word on the SoS posting all the challenged ballots to the interwebs? Seems like public shaming may be the last hope for reining in the frivolous challenge bubble.
I say throw Franken and Coleman into a mud pit to settle this thing and get it over with.
Cugel, I think you're giving way too much credence to Joe Mansky. I wouldn't trust any Ramsey County official for a minute - it's easily the most corrupt in MN, I don't know if you remember the RC Sheriff's crap around the DNC, but that wasn't a surprise either - and Mansky himself has already been smacked down by the courts twice in this recount, once over absentee ballots and once over his challenge arbitration sessions. If this ends up within a few votes you can bet the latter will be a basis for a long court challenge.
I also notice the only one besides you claiming Joe Mansky is a noted elections expert is Joe Mansky. Stop listening to this guy. Really.
Thanks, Nate, for providing as many facts as possible about the on-going saga of the Minnesota recount.
It's encouraging that Minnesota seems to have procedures in place to ensure that the count is as correct as possible, even if it takes quite a while. Since the new Congress doesn't get sworn into office till January 6th, and -- unlike the President-elect -- Senators aren't responsible for filling a large number of critical administration posts requiring Senate confirmation, it's hard to see why we're all throwing tantrums just because we want to know the winner NOW!! [g]
Truth to tell, Franken and Coleman seem to be statistically tied (i.e. margin of victory is less than the normal error rate in any mechanical or human process), so who turns out to be the "winner" in the end is as much a matter of luck as anything else. (Yes, I know, quite a few people won't accept that fact, preferring to believe that, given enough money, any system can be made 100% error free.)
Runoff elections do seem to be an appealing option when the top two candidates are statistical tied. Runoffs may not actually deliver any better indication of the "will of the voter" than a recounts, since lower turnout in special elections means that a smaller portion of the electorate is represented.
Still, if a runoff produces in a margin of victory large enough to be perceived as decisive, then perhaps it's worth the extra expense, just to reinforce citizens' confidence in the electoral process.
wv: ollgerpru = obligatory Germanic prudence?
I wonder how this senate race will end up.
Come see my new probably awful blog:
http://youngerpolitics.blogspot.com/
CUGEL
The reality is that none of us knows what's going on because we do not have enough information. That's Nate's point in a nutshell. The challenges, and I would add the absentee ballots, make this now an impossible task without more information. The best we can do is guess how much it would require to flip the election which I tried about. But even that it just pointless guess work. Others have responded to you explaining why you can't know what you claim to know. If it makes you feel better to believe you do know, go for it.
RUNOFFS
I agree there needs to be a runoff system for this sort of situation. This recount crap is crazy. but, then i have a problem with winner take all so I am probably not the most unbiased person on the subject.
S U N D A Y
Behind Barack's Steely Resolve, the Idea of Unity, the Capacity to Grow
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Barack is ready to rumble, in the face of a White House that is AWOL. As the mind-deficient media has groused with impunity about inessentials, Barack has gathered a complement of solid choices faster than any President-elect in memory.
The nonsensical notion that because people who know DC will surround him, he cannot bring change, is a cop out.
If you want to fix something, it helps to know how it works.
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As a Franken volunteer since last year and a delegate to the MN DFL Convention, I am admittedly somewhat partial here, but Al has been advocating IRV (instant run off voting) since day 1 precisely for such situations.
While observing the recount this week, somewhere between the first precinct's 500 ballots and my very last precinct probably well past 10,000 ballots it struck me that after the human sorting and counting and recounting (each stack is counted at least twice while viewed at least by by four sets of eyes), that after the machine -> human -> human sequence another machine count step would greatly benefit all.
Let me explain this a bit. My very last stack we came up with -1 in Franken pile and +1 in Coleman. After 2 counts. Our site leader made the obvious call: somewhere in the Coleman pile there must be a Franken ballot that got by ALL. We looked the third time with 4 new sets of eyes and [they] found it.
As vigilant and alert and partisan as I am, it still got by me. I hate myself for that, I kick myself for that, but - c'est human error. Eyes get tired after half an hour, especially if there is flash photography, and there was flash photography galore for the papers.
So, my thinking is, there MUST be ballots that got by into the wrong piles. The process is monotonous and hypnotic, chant-like shaman incantations of the election judge "Coleman, Franken, Coleman, Franken...". You fall into the rhythm, you fall into a trance.
So, why not after the piles are sorted into three (Franken, Coleman, Other) - run them through an optical sorter once more? The process does not allow that parity check.
At the end we have a reference of the first machine count, which agrees at best only half the time with the human recount. The humans are going to make mistakes at the rate higher than the machine 0.2%, imho and based on my own flawed experience.
We are not running them through the reader again, and imho we ought to.
On an unrelated note, nobody has been able to give me a good answer on what happened to the provisional ballots in MN? The ballots we've been recounting are all the ones that were fed through the machines, and the ones that machines accepted. That takes care of the precinct votes and the absentee (via duplicates, etc.). But what about those pesky provisionals that would no doubt favor Al?
wv: crampsy - a little cramp
"I also notice the only one besides you claiming Joe Mansky is a noted elections expert is Joe Mansky. Stop listening to this guy. Really."
Look! I'm NOT the one promoting this guy! The Minneapolis Star-Tribune is citing him in EVERY FRIGGIN' article they write as "probably the state's leading elections expert."
I don't live in MN and have NEVER been to Ramsay county wherever the hell that is.
As far as it being "corrupt" it doesn't seem like the voting process is corrupt at all and certainly nobody has suggested Mansky is.
As for his being an expert, he was supposedly running Minnesota elections in the past while serving in the Secretary of State's office for a long period. That's what they said in the articles.
I have no incentive to beef this guy up.
As for him "being smacked down" over his challenge compromise that was just nonsense.
The lawyers for both campaigns are right that once the challenges are made they're supposed to be sent to the canvassing board.
But, Mansky is right that the challenges probably should never have been made because they were frivolous.
After he explained to the lawyers from both sides how ballot challenges are normally resolved on each of the type of common ballot errors they are seeing, the campaign lawyers agreed to withdraw their challenges -- except for one.
Now, does that sound like these challenges were good ones? If so, then why the hell did the lawyers give them up without consulting with their clients?
Really all this stuff isn't that complicated. The campaigns are challenging everything under the sun. Does anybody really think that 2,000 ballots were wrongly decided by the election judges?
That's just WILD challenging of every possible ballot on both sides!
Mansky is right. It's B.S. He called them on their B.S. and told both sides how the challenges will come out based on the past history of how such challenges are resolved in every election.
So if both parties want to make hundreds more challenges under the theory "leave no ballot unchallenged" they legally can.
But, to pretend that it's all perfectly sound is just wrong. The vast majority are clearly going to get tossed.
I think we will see a large number of these challenges dismissed by the lawyers from both sides. At least 1/2 of them ought to be dismissed before the canvassers meet and probably a lot more than that.
We've seen examples of frivolous ballot challenges from both camps.
1. Coleman challenged some ballots on the basis of "voter intent" because the voter split their ticket, voting McCain and Franken. God knows what the thinking is on those challenges.
2. Franken apparently challenged a bunch of ballots where the voters put "X"s instead of filling in the oval.
There are other examples from both sides of pure B.S. and attempts to game the system. This is not an edifying spectacle.
"Blogger Reid said...
@Cugel
It's the Minneapolis Star Tribune, not "Star".
Technically, it's the "Minneapolis-St. Paul Star-Tribune" but who the frig wants to type all that every damn time?
"Star" is shorter and everybody can figure out what the hell we're talking about. There's a link to it in every thread.
Cugel:
You making a logical fallacy. You keep arguing based on the fallacy of authority (of a pundit) rather than any knowable data that you can analyze right now.
No one is saying you may not eventualy be right. They are saying you have no possible way of knowing that.
Not sure what else to say here other than repeating you are committing a logcal fallacy.
@Cugel
(For context, I've lived in Minneapolis or St. Paul for the past decade.)
I see that the Star Tribune website has the words "Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota" under the "Star Tribune.com" masthead. However, I've never heard anyone refer to it as the "Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune". Note that St. Paul has its own paper, the Pioneer Press.
It originated with a merger of the Minneapolis Star and the Minneapolis Tribune.
If you want a short-cut, call it the "Strib". That's what the locals do. Then people will know you are referring to the current paper, not the defunct Star.
Wow, some people are looking at this the complete wrong way. The vast VAST majority of the ballots being challenged right now are ballots where the voter's intent is VERY clear.
Day one of the recount had both campaigns really only challenging ballots where the voter intent was actually unclear. Days 2-4 have been a gradual escalation of challenges based on other things, mostly identifying marks. The Coleman campaign has, for instance, been challenging ballots that has the same person written in for multiple offices, presuming that that one name is the name of the voter, and is therefore an identifying mark.
What's really happening here is that both sides are stockpiling ammunition for the eventual negotiations. After the recount is over, but before the board meets, you can expect that the campaigns will meet and negotiate the total number of challenged ballots down. But if Coleman has challenged 500 Franken votes on the basis of "identifying marks" but Franken has only challenged 200 on the same basis, do you think that during negotiations, Coleman will be willing to cede his 500 challenged Franken votes on that basis to gain the 200 challenged Coleman votes? Hell no. This is why you're seeing a conscious effort by both campaigns to "keep up with the Johnsons" by challenging more and more ballots each day. Believe me, you're going to see massive amounts of challenges in the waning days of this recount, because there's this arms race to maintain parity in total challenges.
I view the recount thus--
Coleman, mindful of all the predictions that he would lose the recount, decided on a psychological strategy early on--with every vote for Franken he frivolously challenges, the subsequent tally makes it seem as if he is holding his own. Since the final act in this melodrama will be five people acting with great independence, Coleman reasoned that creating a "buzz" of success on his part might influence those five people enough to tip truly ambiguous ballots his way.
Franken's folks then realized they needed to play the same game. So by the third day of the recount, frivolous challenges were being issued equally by both camps. But that means Coleman's frivolous challenges still outnumber Franken's. If we assume that all frivolous challenges will be thrown out, Franken is left with a distinct advantage.
The final recount tally will probably show Coleman with a lead of about 100-130 votes, but after the elections board does its work Coleman's lead should be whittled away and Franken will likely win by less than 200 votes.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
I feel as though your Minnesota posts are becoming increasingly speculative and anecdotal.
MNLatteLiberal:
As a Franken volunteer since last year and a delegate to the MN DFL Convention, I am admittedly somewhat partial here, but Al has been advocating IRV (instant run off voting) since day 1 precisely for such situations.
Fraken is wrong to advocate IRV. IRV fails an extremely important voting criteria called Monotonicity, which demands that a voting system not be able to demote a winner to a loser by changing some ballots in favour of the winner. In other words, under IRV it is possible to lose by getting too many votes.
Well, shma, I read the relevant wikipedia entry on IRV in re monotonicity, and IRV still works for me. The scenario you mention remains a very unlikely and somewhat esoteric/academic issue, imho. I am willing to have that as the worst case scenario in order to avoid picking a winner in a statistically tied race. Present coin flipping is rather...well, flippant.
boruch ashem.
~Latte
wv scutou: the act of betrayal by or of Scooter Libby. As in, "et tu, Scutou, then viva, Valerie".
Just to be clear, it is a "talking point" of the Coleman campaign that most challenges are frivolous and will be tossed.
Whether or not most challenges are indeed frivolous remains to be determined by the canvassing board.
I suspect certain posters are less interested in prediction based on curiosity and actual facts than in spreading the aforementioned "talking point".
Myself, I'd like to get some realistic idea from an analysis based on facts. Unfortunately, facts are hard to come by in this situation.
MNLatteLiberal said...
Well, shma, I read the relevant wikipedia entry on IRV in re monotonicity, and IRV still works for me. The scenario you mention remains a very unlikely and somewhat esoteric/academic issue, imho. I am willing to have that as the worst case scenario in order to avoid picking a winner in a statistically tied race. Present coin flipping is rather...well, flippant.
The recount is not coin flipping, so much as clarifying voter intent. IRV, plurality, or any voting method for that matter, does not protect against close races. For all you know, Barkley's voters would split their second place votes equally amongst Coleman and Franken, and this same recount would be forced under IRV.
The example given in wikipedia is merely one example, and one that could arise quite easily. And if it did happen, I doubt that people would take it as well as you say you would, especially if they backed the losing candidate. I'd have thought that after 2000, Americans would be the first to advise against complacency when it comes to choosing a voting system.
In any case, this isn't a binary choice between plurality and IRV. There are dozens of voting systems, many of which satisfy monotonicity as well as a host of other important criteria. Here's a nice table comparing a large class of them (called preferential voting systems, of which plurality and IRV are examples). As you can see, a lot of people have given this subject some thought. A one in a million chance of violating monotonicity is still infinitely larger than a 0% chance.
shma,
before I read your reference, I wanted to clarify my "coin flipping" statement. It is my belief that we do not have a voting system in place that is six sigma accurate. In three million votes we have come down to about 50 ballots separating the two candidates.
I submit to you that this is inside the statistical noise for the accuracy of current method for determining the winner. The machine error rate (and accuracy) of the optical scanners has been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere.
Neither can the human eye discern the winner with a margin so thin, as I discussed in my earlier post. Even if the eye were good, we ultimately get into a situation where some ballots are truly questionable and are a coin flip. Absentee ballots with partial/removed white out and others similar ones where voter intent cannot be adequately discerned.
Those will be the ones deciding the current election. Reading tea leaves. Or tossing them?
Regarding Barkley votes splitting exactly down the middle - statistically impossible, sorry. If you believe that, you might as well invest into lottery tickets.
~Latte
wv ealabint: electronic research intern
before I read your reference, I wanted to clarify my "coin flipping" statement. It is my belief that we do not have a voting system in place that is six sigma accurate.
6 sigma territory would be a difference of less than one vote in a national election (it's about one vote in 500 million), so there's no need to have anything approaching that level of accuracy.
Regarding Barkley votes splitting exactly down the middle - statistically impossible, sorry. If you believe that, you might as well invest into lottery tickets.
They don't need to be split exactly down the middle, only relatively evenly. Even if they split 51-49, it would still be low enough to mandate a recount under MN law. You'd still need to explain to me how IRV is better in the case where a third party candidate draws equally (again approximately equally, not literally) from the top two candidates. I don't see how you can avoid a runoff in this case, or, in any electoral system for that matter.
Nate,
Do you have confidence intervals for the coefficient of "t" in the regression?
Re: Mpls Star-Tribune
Just call it "The Strib." That's what we all do here in MN.
Oh, and by the way, the Strib is actually a horrible paper. Please take everything they say with a grain of salt. Try the St. Paul Pioneer Press instead.
shma,
afair, and I might be wrong here as I not going through a statistics text, but rather recalling all the black belt training I avoided, six sigma is about 3-4/million. In terms of defects, and that is what I was referring to in my post.
The context was that within the current margin separating the two men in the race, it has come down to roughly six sigma type of a lead, which is not detectable via the current probing means.
That point stands.
Now, regarding your second point of the IRV dealing with the third party votes splitting close down the middle of the top two, but not exactly.
That adds a significant statistical constraint on the original problem, doesn't it? You would need the election first to split 40/40/20, let's say, and on top of that your supposition requires that the 20 is split essentially 10/10. Right?
I submit to you, that the superimposition of that on top of the already unlikely current scenario make me think this is something that is just as likely to occur in US/MN politics as the scenario where your weblink took me.
I am willing to embrace the IRV still:
1) We have essentially a two party system with two candidates, where the third plays a spoiler with the exception of Jesse Ventura a few years ago. But the lesson has been learned well enough, for if the current conundrum has not been able to yield more than 20% for the third party, nothing will again in MN.
We do not have a 15 front runners, sorry. We do not care in practical state-wide election whether the 7th runner up gets flipped with the 9th. Academic, sorry.
2) Your requirement of the third party vote to split 50/50 in the second round of IRV is similarly unlikely scenario. It requires two highly unlikely events to occur concurrently. In those rare cases, where IRV does not remedy the situation, why we could stipulate a re-vote or provide for a similar contingency.
~Latte
wv vatebast: to require to have the last word in an argument.
MNLatteLiberal said...
afair, and I might be wrong here as I not going through a statistics text, but rather recalling all the black belt training I avoided, six sigma is about 3-4/million. In terms of defects, and that is what I was referring to in my post.
A rough approximation for higher sigma is e^[-(z^2)/2]. This will give you the correct order of magnitude, which in this case (z=6) is 10^-8. Of course, I just looked up the exact result on wikipedia, but hey, that's what wikipedia is for.
You would need the election first to split 40/40/20, let's say, and on top of that your supposition requires that the 20 is split essentially 10/10. Right?
2) Your requirement of the third party vote to split 50/50 in the second round of IRV is similarly unlikely scenario. It requires two highly unlikely events to occur concurrently. In those rare cases, where IRV does not remedy the situation, why we could stipulate a re-vote or provide for a similar contingency.
Those two events are not independent. If the electorate at large splits between Coleman and Franken, why would the subset that voted for Barkley not split that way as well? He is not a left wing or right wing candidate, and from what I've heard in news reports, drew equally from both sides.
Your first statement about a first round vote split being highly unlikely is not borne out by fact. There are literally hundreds of races in the US every two years, more than enough for a polarized electorate to make one of them a toss-up. Simply because it rarely happens on a national (or statewide) scale doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
A revote is costly and turnout is usually significantly lower in by-elections, which means that they may result in an entirely different result than the original election. Recounts can be finished in the time it takes to prepare another election. At least, outside of Alaska, they can.
We do not have a 15 front runners, sorry. We do not care in practical state-wide election whether the 7th runner up gets flipped with the 9th. Academic, sorry.
The lack of choice on your ballots is not something to brag about. It is a terrible symptom of the plurality system. In fact, proponents of other voting systems, including IRV, generally stress that their system will bring more choice to the ballot. If you adopt IRV, you can conceivably have 10 viable candidates on a ballot (why do you think major parties are opposed to electoral reform?). In fact, you don't even need to have IRV. Didn't the California recall have more than 100 candidates? One of the criteria of a good voting system is that it holds up in all possible scenarios. This is why I advocate methods like Schulze or Approval Voting (this one is actually a practical favourite, since even a young child could understand how the votes are tallied. Schulze would not be accepted by an electorate that fears algebra as they fear death). They are simple to implement, and work under all scenarios, so you never need to worry whether you will get a perverse result like a candidate losing because he got too many votes.
But even if you forbade more than 3 candidates from running, the first example I gave you of a failure of IRV (monotonicity) had only 3 candidates. You dismissed that as academic, too. I don't know what your criteria for a 'practical scenario' is, but it seems to be very narrow.
Even if these 'academic' cases are unlikely to occur (and I'm certainly not conceding that they are), why would you risk it? To use an analogy, if you were offered two cars at the same price, one of which had a 0.001% chance of failing after 1000 miles, and one which had a 0% chance of failing, wouldn't you take the sure thing? There's no benefit to keeping IRV over these other choices: All of them get rid of the spoiler effect, all of them are relatively easy to implement, all of them are improvements on the system you have now.
MNLatteLiberal said... "Now, regarding your second point of the IRV dealing with the third party votes splitting close down the middle of the top two, but not exactly.
That adds a significant statistical constraint on the original problem, doesn't it? You would need the election first to split 40/40/20, let's say, and on top of that your supposition requires that the 20 is split essentially 10/10. Right?"
OR: the election first splits 42/38/20, but on the second round the 20 splits 8/12. Simple plurality would not require a recount, but IRV would. The probability that a recount will be needed is pretty much independent of the system.
With regard to IRV, IRV opens itself up to "strategic voting" where supporters of 3rd party candidates that are unlikely to win overvote for someone that they don't want, because that way the unwanted candidate's voters' second preferences don't count in the early rounds of the Instant Runoff, which means the 2nd choices of the candidate(s) you prefer are more likely to get their second choices counted. Systems like this actually make it more likely that you end up with the "major party" candidate that the majority actually doesn't want being the one who wins. If you're a true-believer in some fringe 3rd party, maybe that's OK with you, but most of us care whether the Democrat or the Republican wins, and in IRV, strategic third party voting could overrule a natural majority.
Furthermore, I would consider a system unfair where some voters essentially get to vote twice (or more) while the majority of the voters only get to vote once. In IRV, supporters of candidates who do the WORST are rewarded with additional votes, while supporters of the candidate in 3rd or 4th place might only get one vote. I'd prefer a recount or a real runoff.
With the concerns about "6-sigma" accuracy, what you're really advocating is a better voting mechanism and better accuracy in the count. Changing to IRV (or approval voting or whatever) doesn't fix the problems of making sure you've accurately captured the voters' choices.
The role of the senior election official on site IS NOT to judge ballots. That is left to the observer (me and my counterpart) and the election official at my table. If I want to challenge a ballot, that is my legal right and nobody can challenge my challenge - nobody. I am not making the final judgement, I am merely stating that I would like the ballot to be reviewed by the canvassing board. Pushy election officials are out of line and should be reported to the Secretary of State's office immediately.
Hi, could someone please reconcile the numbers that I'm reading directly from the MN Secty. State site
http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/SenateRecount.asp
and the "120" lead that Coleman now holds (by MSM standards)?
Why does the official recount record show over a 25,000-vote discrepancy . . . and everyone reports it as a 3-digit difference (?). I know I'm not reading the gov site correctly, but I would like to understand what exactly the numbers they are posting are in reference to.
And if I have to hear one more word about AL FRANKEN -- a loving husband and father -- having "a mouth" on him, I refer the MSM to Senator Thad Cochran (R) Mississippi, who just last year went on record as saying that "John McCain has the filthiest mouth in the Senate."
Al Franken is a warm, faithful, loving husband and father and I just get sick and tired of hearing him belittled.
Now please put me out of my misery and explain why the gov site would appear to spell defeat for my beloved AL FRANKEN. Thank you. And God Bless you Nate for this site! Oh, if I were thirty years younger . . . ;)
xxxoooxxx
Issy Pine
Site Owner
http://thesaucywench.com
Coming Soon!
Isadore Olivia Pine said...
Hi, could someone please reconcile the numbers that I'm reading directly from the MN Secty. State site, and the "120" lead that Coleman now holds (by MSM standards)?
The way the SOS tally works is they reset the count to zero and simply add up the votes as they come in. This can result in large leads for one candidate during the recount process because they are counting county by county and the split is not 50/50 at the county level. So when they started the recount in Coleman counties, you saw a larger lead for Coleman.
The way the Star Tribune and others count is different. They start with the county results from the election and only change them if there is a change in the numbers from that county. They'd leave all the other county results untouched, while the SOS would have them at 0.
Let's say for example, that they look at county X first, where in the original election Coleman got 10660 votes and Franken got 5340. In the recount, they found that Coleman got 10662 and Franken 5348. The SOS would report the results as 10662-5348 for Coleman (for a lead of 5314 votes). The Star Tribune would take Coleman's original lead of 215 and subtract the net gain for Franken (8 new votes for Franken minus 2 new votes for Coleman), leaving Coleman's lead at 209. When all the ballots from every county are tallied these two ways of reporting the results will converge to the same number.
This second way of counting is actually the most accurate while the recount is still going on. So ignore the SOS site until the end of the recount, when the two numbers should match up.
Things are made more complicated by the fact that the Star Tribune takes votes that have been challenged out of their total count. Right now, Coleman's lead on the Star Tribune website is 200, but he has challenged about 150 more than Franken If most of these votes are Franken votes, and, as expected, most challenges are deemed frivolous, then Franken will gain that difference right back. It may possibly be a strategy of Coleman's to make as many frivolous challenges as possible to run up his count in the Star Tribune, allowing him to claim a premature victory.
shma, thank you so much for explaining this to me!!!!
I wish Nate would place this explanation conspicuously as the first comment under his FAQ because it's really traumatic to see AL getting so close by MSM standards to "I'll Sue My Way Into Office" Coleman . . . and then read those disheartening numbers on the gov site! :(
Nate, if you are reading this and update the FAQ I will be happy to add a link to it on the site I'm building (I'm already working up a FRANKEN graphic to take dominance on the page). Absent that, I'll quote shma's excellent description.
Again, thank you shma. (((HUG)))
Issy Pine
THESAUCYWENCH.COM
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