From the latest IPD/TIPP poll:
That's right ... IBD/TIPP has John McCain ahead 74-22 among 18-24 year olds. Who knew the kids were groovin' on J-Mac these days?
IBD/TIPP puts an asterisk by this result, stipulating that "Age 18-24 has much fluctuation due to small sample size".
Indeed, there may be some fluctuations when looking at small subgroups like these. That's why I generally don't pick on a poll if, say, it has John McCain winning 18 percent of the black vote when he's only "supposed" to be winning 7 percent or whatever. Fluctuations of that magnitude are going to be relatively common, mathematically speaking. In fact, they're entirely unavoidable, if you're taking enough polls and breaking out the results amongst enough subgroups.
But fluctuations of this magnitude are an entirely different matter.
Suppose that the true distribution of the 18-24 year old vote is a 15-point edge for Obama. This is a very conservative estimate; most pollsters show a gap of anywhere from 20-35 points among this age range.
About 9.3 percent of the electorate was between age 18-24 in 2004. Let's assume that the percentage is also 9.3 percent this year. Again, this is a highly conservative estimate. The IBD/TIPP poll has a sample size of 1,060 likely voters, which would imply that about 98 of those voters are in the 18-24 age range.
What are the odds, given the parameters above, that a random sampling of 98 voters aged 18-24would distribute themselves 74% to McCain and 22% to Obama?
Using a binomial distribution, the odds are 54,604,929,633-to-1 against. That is, about 55 billion to one.
So, there is an 0.000000002% chance that IBD/TIPP just got really unlucky. Conversely, there is a 99.999999998% chance that one of the following things is true:
(i) They're massively undersampling the youth vote. If you only have, say, 30 young voters when you should have 100 or so in your sample, than the odds of a freak occurrence like this are significantly more likely.
-or-
(ii) Something is dramatically wrong with their sampling or weighting procedures, or their likely voter model.
My guess is that it's some combination of the two -- that, for instance, IBD/TIPP is applying a very stringent likely voter model that removes you from the sample if you haven't voted in the past two elections, which would rule a great number of 18-24 year olds out.
A pollster could get away with a turnout model like that in 2004 (when IBD/TIPP did well in estimating the national popular vote), when the split in the youth vote was relatively small between John Kerry and George W. Bush. They can't get away with that this year, when the split is much larger.
But the basic takeaway is this: you should absolutely not assume that just because someone has published a poll, they have any particular idea what they're doing. Pollsters should be treated as guilty until proven otherwise.
10.23.2008
What's Wrong With This Picture? (a.k.a. Nate the Poll Nazi Strikes Again)
by Nate Silver @ 3:05 PM...see also methodology, pollsters, youth vote
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244 comments
Oops. Probably a typo, but funny anyways.
hah, that's hilarious. keep dreaming, bud! I don't know one person under 24 who is voting for McCain, and I live in a red hellhole of a town.
Nice work Nate. 10, 15, 20 points off and we can believe you. The exact opposite of reality, not so much.
Using a binomial distribution, the odds are 54,604,929,633-to-1 against. That is, about 55 trillion to one.
Uh, that's 55 billion to one, not trillion.
The Republitrolls will be along any moment to berate your for bias.
Good to see you raising the issue, Nate. Gotta keep these guys honest.
You think it's just bad polling. I think it's something more sinister.
Maybe IBDCPEATIPPER was sampling freshmen at Liberty University.
Even so, this is a rolling tracker, right? So they got 70 some percent over THREE DAYS. Something is terribly wrong.
Also, check out the urban voters, who manage to add up to 101%.
Nice.
But really, those numbers seem switched to me. I'd think the actual numbers would be something like 74% for Obama, and 22% for McCain.
Keepin' em honest. Karl Rove says this is his favorite poll.
For the 18-24 demographic I just look at the size of the two Facebook groups and call this thing ~ 4:1 in favor of Barack. Have you tried to get a 20 year old on a land line lately?
You mean "latter", not "former" I presume.
That's 55 BILLION not Trillion, but who's counting?
I think the pollsters have an unspoken agreement. They all take turns making the race look close with one or two days of ridiculous results in order to give Drudge something to publish and people a reason to keep checking.
Do these guys even look at their numbers to make sure they pass the laugh test before they send them out?
[whoops, already corrected]
If McCain wins that age group by 50 points and still loses, that might be the most hilarious thing ever.
Debunking the Bradley Effect, Again
Senate Projections: Democrats 59, Republicans 41
Massive Minnesota Polling Analysis
How the Base was Won
Here's the thing: Whether they got the numbers wrong honestly by applying bad sampling or exclusion of unlikely voters or whatever, THEY SHOULD HAVE NOTICE THE NUMBER WAS BAD. Their one and only one job is to publish poll results. This is their product. And even a complete political novice would see immediately that this number is wrong. So instead of wondering how they got the # wrong as Nate is, I'm really wondering how on earth their editors, fact-checkers, proofreaders, etc. also "missed" it, if indeed they did.
"But really, those numbers seem switched to me. I'd think the actual numbers would be something like 74% for Obama, and 22% for McCain."
Exactly... I don't understand whats the big issue.
I just want to see the other 538 poll tracker updated right now.
Actually, Zogby has Obama WINNING that age group by 50 points. This is really quite ridiculous... there should not be a 100 point difference on this between two polls.
I don't think Obama is winning or losing that age group by 50 points... I think it's probably closer to 20-25 points, but the spread on this is absurd.
If my above statement is correct that the numbers for them are actually reversed, it'd be something like Obama 47% and McCain 37.6%, but my math is probably off somewhere.
arnieh: What's an order of magnitude between friends?
MSU Poll: Obama Leads in Montana
A new Montana State University Poll shows Sen. Barack Obama leading Sen. John McCain in Montana, 44% to 40%.
Key finding: "Both Obama and McCain did a pretty good job in the poll of holding their party's base, but Obama held an advantage among self-described independents."
http://www.kxmb.com/News/288813.asp
Small sample size? I'll bet. I'm guessing, five. All from Arizona, with the last name McCain. (Which would mean that one of them has jumped ship.)
~A~
i HEART nate!!
Also, exactly what kind of regional weighting are they using? This poll is only plausible if the 'South' makes up like 40-50% of the sample.
This poll is bunk.
there you go again, being logical! you know, if you don't tow the repug line or pad the numbers you're just a left-wing extremist.
The 0.000000002% is probably (heh) the probability of getting that /exact/ result. It's more common in statistical analysis---and less misleading---to quote the probability of getting a result that extreme /or more extreme/. With large sample sizes, any one particular result is going to be unlikely, so it's better to look at ranges.
Otherwise, I love the site!
Good analysis as always Pablano, but on a more general point, when call polls outliers (such as Pew or Top 10), because their numbers are outside what is probably the mean (14% to Obama compared to a 6% mean for instance), then we really need to know the methodological flaw which supports such a label of 'outlier'. Good process + good data = good outcomes. Therefore, we need more analysis on data (such as the IBP 'joke poll') or the process before accepting the outlier label, do you agree?
Dear Nate, You must be psychic, as I was just pondering this large ideosyncracy! Thanks for Your wisdom and guidance in this insane word we live in!
P.S. You were lookin' pretty cute on msnbc the other day!
~Special advocate for the Trees...
egotron5000 said...
Have you tried to get a 20 year old on a land line lately?
THIS!
Another great analysis, Nate. IBD is extremely biased toward Republicans not only on its opinions page, but also in its "news" articles (so much so I canceled my subscription), so it would not surprise me if their pollsters designed their choice of likely voter model specifically to benefit McCain's numbers.
Given the breakdown by region, to come up with their overall result would suggest the poll is heavily biased towards the south for some reason.
Also the rural split disagrees wildly with the other poll out today showing them nearly even.
I'd agree that possibility 3 (not listed in the post numbers were transposed due to gross clerical error) is more likely.
However, to put the 55B:1 in perspective: if every person on earth ran this poll 10 times, you'd expect one of them, one of the times, to get a result like this.
Man, I love this debunking stuff. Reminds me of years ago when Baseball Prospectus used to have stuff like "Peter Gammons - The Weekly Antibiotic".
I've loved this and the instapolls that came out after the debates that effectively silenced the "Who won" nonsense from the pundits.
I normally don't post in any comments sections, but you fucking rock dude.
First I look on RCP and notice Obama dropped from about 7.4 to 7.1 in the last hour or so. I click the number to see which polls had brought the average down.
First thing I notice is this poll. I click it for details and try to see what the numbers say about it. Then I check FreeRepublic to see them cream their pants over a poll that shows the 'real' numbers.
Then I check here to see if Nate has debunked it yet.
And he had, and it was unequivocally correct. Anyone who think McCain wins 75% of the youth vote needs to calmly check themselves into a mental institution. You are the man, Nate.
"I'd agree that possibility 3 (not listed in the post numbers were transposed due to gross clerical error) is more likely."
Well except that this poll has been doing this (not this extreme mind you) since it first came out. It's been a running joke on pollwatcher.
I'm guessing it's more like a 50 person sample.
At a 50 person sample, it works out to 11 for Obama, 37 for McCain, and 2 undecideds.
It obviously could double and be 100, or be rounded off.
Even if you assume the real distribution was the same as it was for the next demographic (47%, 45%, 8%), the chances aren't good that you'd get that randomly. A Fisher's exact test (assuming they tested 400 people (188 for Obama, 180 for McCain, 32 undecideds) in the 25-44 category, and dropping the undecideds) gives a 2-tailed score of 0.0002, ruling out that the 18-24 distribution numbers seen is just random variation from the 25-44 category.
Is the third possibility that they just cooked these numbers?
Another weird thing, it has Obama losing the suburban vote by 26%. This is one crappy poll, they must be be way oversampling republicans.
Also it has McCain way ahead with rural voters and another poll I saw today had it dead even with Obama up 1.
This is a poll for the most anti Obama financial paper out there so take it with a grain of salt.
wow
Nate
Justin said...
arnieh: What's an order of magnitude between friends?
Where I come from, that's 3 orders of magnitude......but, like I said, "who's counting"? ;>)
any more polls coming out ?
I have all J-MAc's latest cuts on my iPoop. Nate needs to get down with it.
Interesting, Gallup is showing no increase in the proportion of first time voters.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/111331/No-Increase-Proportion-First-Time-Voters.aspx
I think this election is going to make a lot of the pollsters redo how they get their information. If they're thinking that John McCain will manage to get three-quarters of the youth vote over Barack Obama, they're seriously mistaken. Even if the economy hadn't crashed and even if McCain had named Lieberman as his running mate and run a much more tame campaign, Obama would be killing him in the youth vote. There are scads of young people in every state who are voting for the first time, and they're not voting for John McCain. In the next election, they're going to have to take into account whole groups of young people who don't have landlines.
Ras state polls...
Minnesota
Obama- 56
McCain- 41
Senate:
Franken - 41
Coleman - 37
Barkley - 17
Louisiana
McCain - 57
Obama - 41
Georgia
McCain - 51
Obama - 46
Washington
Obama - 54
McCain - 43
There Nate goes again with his high-falutin' elitist "number" and "fact" stuff again.
What if you reviewed the poll using your gut?
Well, not your gut 'cause you're a Socialist pal of domestic terrorists, but a good Republican gut.
If it was a simple clerical error, wouldn't we then have to believe that they noticed the result and went so far as to put an asterisk by it... but DIDN'T bother to double check that the numbers weren't transposed?
Several people on this site have expressed an interest in having more information on the subject of "how to Protect Your Vote". With the help of Erik who also posts messages here, I have written “Easy Steps to Ensure Your Vote is Counted” which just went up today on Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/myra-armstrong/easy-steps-to-ensure-your_b_136904.html
I will be submitting a second article a few days before the election on the topic "What To Do If You Are Turned Away When You Go to Vote"
I laughed. And I cried.
Nate, thank you! After reading your entries for the last 2 months, I noticed the same thing.
See Ma, I'm learning something!
Just doing some noodling... The poll is based on 1000 LVs. Assume that 50 were in the 18-24 group (i.e., the "small sample" referenced). If one assumes that the actual breakdown of that group is, say, 52-44 for Obama (as Nate says, a conservative estimate), by my calculation that would turn a 1-point Obama lead into a 4-point Obama lead for this poll.
Man, Georgia is starting to get really close. Combine that with the huge numbers of AAs early voting in the state and you may see something very shocking on November 4th.
Fortunately, we don't have too long to wait until the election so that we can find out which pollsters are correct and which are incompetent.
For now I am listening to Prof. Wang at election.princeton.edu:
"Today, Obama is still crushing McCain. Still. Crushing. McCain."
BTW, he wrote that before today's big ten and Q polls.
Regional Bias is also evident. IF the break down by region is accurate, for the overall poll to come out as 44 to 43, there must be more than 40% of respondents from the South.
I don't think it's a typo or that they're cooking the books. They knew how ridiculous the numbers looked - that's why they tried to cover themselves with the lame footnote about "small sample size".
At this point, what else can they do? They can't adjust their methodology now.
Couldn't it just be that it's a misprint? Is that a possibility?
It's been discussed in this thread that Obamm 74-22 among the youth vote is a possibility, and in any one poll, especially one with a potentially small sample size of youth vote, that seems at least somewhat plausible.
Then you also have the fact that this poll's headline is about how McCain is "closing the gap", but it talks about his strides in middle class/working class voters, not about his newfound success with the youth vote.
Put those two factors together, and I think the answer is that this is a simple misprint, and that they meant to have Obama win 74-22. But I could be wrong, of course.
also note that Obama wins the other age groups and keep it relatively close with the over 60 dem. So basically this poll has McCain closing in with the youth vote. Huh? I guess that given that the reps tell us the youth will not turn out to vote anyway this means we have nothing to worry about!
A powerful endorsement for the cool baldie. Is the tide turning against Oby?
For "last two elections", they must include congressional elections, right? No 18-24's would be eligible otherwise...The problem with this is that it might grossly undersample the blue crowd in this age group.
Of the people I know from growing up in a red state, those who moved out of state for college (as most of those who will be voting for Obama did) no longer vote in congressional elections back home because they no longer feel attached to the district. In contrast, those who stayed in-state (either for college or to start work) tend to be both red-leaning and more likely to have voted in 2006 due to a continued involvement with the issues of the area.
It's not a hard and fast rule by any means, but it could play a significant role when combined with issues like small sample size or poor sample selection.
That, or someone at IBD/TIPP is illiterate.
There are obviously a lot of plumber that are 18-24 and being called by this pollster.
Wouldn't a survey that eliminated people who hadn't participated in the past two elections eliminate ALL 18-24s? Considering that even the 24s would have been 16 in 2000. ;)
I don't usually go for conspiracy stuff but they do exist clearly.
Many an article written in the past about disinformation campaigns that the CIA runs in other countries to influence public opinion. Now starting in Iraq by the way... can't blame em I guess... they want things to go their way in these countries, so you sway the public.
Maybe, some of these polls have more than a McCain bias... maybe they are there to keep the right engaged in this election so that they don't get massacred...
Which they deserve.
El Cid:
Well, not your gut 'cause you're a Socialist pal of domestic terrorists, but a good Republican gut.
You mean, a "good 'Merican gut" right?
Could the tightening race noted in the poll's preamble be because of early voting decreasing the number of likely voters, and because early voters are overwhelmingly voting for Obama, thus cutting down the number of potential Obama voters?
Big Ten Battleground 2008 is on right now. I watched the first segment where they introduced and discussed all of the polls just a little bit. They will get more in depth in the next 75 Minutes it's on. Anyway the BTN national poll is Obama 52 and Mccain 43 so thats on par with other national polls. They basically said all there state polls are quite similar to other state polls around the country except Indiana. The Roundtable basically said they were only the third poll to have Obama in the lead in Indiana and the two before were by 1-2 points.
Blogger is back?
Here are their previous poll results in the 18-24 subgroup:
10/23: O 22 - M 74 - Not Sure 4 (Overall O +1.1)
10/22: O 43 - M 53 - 4 (O +3.7)
10/21: O 46 - M 44 - 11 (O+6)
10/20: O 46 - M 46 - 8 (O +5.3)
10/19: O 42 - M 52 - 6 (O +5.1)
10/18: O 43 - M 51 - 6 (O +7.4)
10/17: O 38 - M 53 - 9 (O +5.3)
10/16: O 42 - M 50 - 8 (O +3)
10/15: O 65 - M 32 - 3 (O +3)
10/14: O 74 - M 21 - 5 (O +3)
10/13: O 66 - M 26 - 7 (O +2)
Crazy kids...Actually, look at those last three polls where the numbers are reversed, the overall spread is still just as narrow. There's something else going on with this polling outfit.
Kamikaze Pollsters?
Imagine this:
Pollsters who knowingly warp the sampling methodology to achieve a biased outcome, well aware that it will be wrong, but with the objective to show the presidential race to be much closer than it really is ...
Why would any pollster risk defaming their reputation this way?
Color me a cynic, but is it just possible that they seek to obtain a good turnout of the base-- artificially showing a close race-- that would otherwise stay home and doom down-ticket Republican candidates.
AKA: Kamikaze Pollsters.
First AP/Gfk...now IDP/TIPP
Sake anyone?
Look at their internals on 10/18. Even when they had Obama up by 7, they still had McCain winning 18-24s by 8 points.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/Polls.aspx?id=309220792351988
In fact it seems like something magical happened between Day 3 and Day 4 of their tracking poll.
Age 18-24 Voters
Day 1: O:66 / M:26
Day 2: O:74 / M:21
Day 3: O:65 / M:32
Day 4: O:42 / M:50
Day 5: O:38 / M:53
Day 6: O:41 / M:51
Day 7: O:42 / M:52
Day 8: O:46 / M:46
Day 9: O:46 / M:44
Day 10: O:43 / M:53
Day 11: O:22 / M:74
Note that they don't call this dramatic shift out in their editorial intro on day four...
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/Polls.aspx?id=309042090194597
Hey.
I thought I'd share this look into the data. It's pretty elementary, but it's a nice illustration of McCain's problem.
Here, rank-ordered by EV, are the states. Each is marked "O" or "M" depending on whether the Silver model likes Obama or McCain to win it, respectively. The columns are State, EVs, Leans ("O" or "M"), "McCain Cumulative Total", and "Obama Cumulative Total".
CA 55 O 0 55
TX 34 M 34 55
NY 31 O 34 86
FL 27 O 34 113
PA 21 O 34 134
IL 21 O 34 155
OH 20 O 34 175
MI 17 O 34 192
NJ 15 O 34 207
NC 15 O 34 222
GA 15 M 49 222
VA 13 O 49 235
MA 12 O 49 247
WA 11 O 49 258
TN 11 M 60 258
MO 11 M 71 258
IN 11 M 82 258
WI 10 O 82 268
MN 10 O 82 278
------------------------Game Over
MD 10 O 82 288
AZ 10 M 92 288
LA 9 M 101 288
CO 9 O 101 297
AL 9 M 110 297
SC 8 M 118 297
KY 8 M 126 297
OR 7 O 126 304
OK 7 M 133 304
IA 7 O 133 311
CT 7 O 133 318
MS 6 M 139 318
KS 6 M 145 318
AR 6 M 151 318
WV 5 M 156 318
UT 5 M 161 318
NV 5 O 161 323
NM 5 O 161 328
NE 5 M 166 328
RI 4 O 166 332
NH 4 O 166 336
ME 4 O 166 340
ID 4 M 170 340
HI 4 O 170 344
WY 3 M 173 344
VT 3 O 173 347
SD 3 M 176 347
ND 3 M 179 347
MT 3 M 182 347
DE 3 O 182 350
DC 3 O 182 353
AK 3 M 185 353
The rank-ordering by EV corrects the "Map Too Red" effect. This is a nice way of seeing the Obama dominance in populous states. In fact, excluding Texas, you have to go all the way to Georgia (15 EV) to find a McCain state.
In addition, it is easy to see why McCain isn't wasting time in CO, and shouldn't waste any in IA, and why he should be worrying about GA ,and soiling his pants over MO and IN. If he doesn't flip something above the "Game Over" line, he's finished. And as unlikely as even that looks now, if he has to play defense in some of the states above that line, then he's going backwards instead of forwards.
Nate,
Getting any one exact configuration like 74%-22% is always *somewhat* unlikely. Just look at your EV distribution, where one or two outcomes happen 10% of the time and even the next likeliest single outcomes are down at the 1-2% level.
Probably a more fair question would be what are the odds that IBD/TIPP would produce a result anywhere in that high range. That will probably give them back a couple orders of magnitude — not that that will change your conclusion, of course.
for instance, IBD/TIPP is applying a very stringent likely voter model that removes you from the sample if you haven't voted in the past two elections, which would rule a great number of 18-24 year olds out.
I love your gift for understatement! If any 18-24 year olds were voting in the last two elections, they may also be members of the Chinese Olympic gymnastics team. I blame ACORN.
I reckon they likely had about 35 respondents in the age range 18-24.
This would mean 8 supporting Obama and 26 supporting McCain.
Since they undersampled 18-24, they multiplied the numbers by three to give the right percentage of respondents in that age group, meaning 24/1060 for Obama, 78/1060 for McCain and 5 undecided.
IBD's numbers come to:
O = 475/1060
M = 436/1060
Und = 122/1060
Taking those crazy 18-24 numbers out gives, for all other age groups:
O = 451/953 (47.3%)
M = 385/953 (40.4%)
Und = 117/953 (12.3%)
Adding back in something approximating the real 18-24 age group (53:43:4 to be kind to McCain) it would run to about O:M:Und = 57:46:4:, giving:
O = 508/1060 (47.9%)
M = 431/1060 (40.7%)
Und = 121/1060 (11.4%)
Does that seem right?
That 18-24 group has swung from a 46-44 Obama lean on 10/21 to a 53-43 McCain advantage on 10/22 before the huge leap to 74-22 McCain today. That's a pretty large switch to my statistically uneducated eyes, but looking at the past daily polls of IBD/TIPP shows that the 18-24 group has been strongly in McCain's favor (usually up 8+ points) since day 4. Oddly enough, days 1-3 were strongly in Obama's favor (including a 74-21 advantage on day 2).
To paraphrase Ted "Theodore" Logan, strange things are afoot at the IBD/TIPP.
arnieh said...
Justin said...
arnieh: What's an order of magnitude between friends?
Where I come from, that's 3 orders of magnitude......but, like I said, "who's counting"? ;>)
maybe he is thinking in base-100? :P
What is disconcerting to me about this IBD/TIPP article is the enthusiasm and conviction with which they are presenting these numbers. The same seems to be coming out of the AP polls showing a 1 point race. Suddenly both of these polls are twisting their numbers from science into political commentary.
If it were my job to be presenting polling data I don't think I'd be calling too much attention to numbers that look so obviously skewed.
Thanks to Nate for calling these guys out!
For those interested in how Nate obtained the probabilities in his analysis...
Using a sample size of 98 survey respondents, and 4% were undecided, that leaves 94.
Of those, 22 favored Obama, and the rest were for McCain. Also, assuming a 15 point
spread for Obama would give him 57.% of the vote. A cumulative binomial distribution (CDF)
measures the probability of getting a value *or any value smaller*. Many statisticians
use the freeware R, and plugging these numbers into the CDF we obtain
> pbinom(22, 94, 0.575)
[1] 1.831336e-11
> 1/pbinom(22, 94, 0.575)
[1] 54604929634
which matches Nate. So, just to clarify again, he has accounted for the probability of
obtain 22 *or less*, which is the proper way to think about it.
Edward: That's funny...you and I had the same idea...
I think that if you're sampling anybody my age (26) with land line, you are NOT getting a representative sample. As a matter of fact, nobody that I know has a land line except my mother. I think we have reached a point in communications evolution that you can definitely consider persons in this age group extreme outliers if they actually have land lines. They are much more likely to be rural, or they are much more likely to be living at home, not in college, something along those lines.
This polling day is so good for Obama that it is almost hard to believe...I truly wish I could believe some of these numbers...
PA (SUSA): O 53, M 41 (O +12)
PA (Big 10): O 52, M 41 (O +11)
PA (tracker): O 52, M 42 (O +10)
PA (Nat. J): O 51, M 41 (O +10)
PA (Q poll): O 53, M 40 (O +13)
All double digit leads in PA, from 5 polls (remarkable)
OH (Big 10): O 53, M 41 (O +12)
OH (Q poll): O 52, M 38 (O +14)
These are just off the charts...hard to believe. Obama is probably ahead there, but these are astronomical numbers
MI (Big 10): O 58, M 36 (O +22)!
MN (Big 10): O 57, M 38 (O +19)!
MN (Nat. J): O 51, M 41 (O +10)
MN (Ras): O 56, M 41 (O +15)
WI (Big 10): O 52, M 39 (O +13)
WI (Nat. J): O 53, M 40 (O +13)
FL (Q Poll): O 49, M 44 (O +5)
The Florida result is actually believable!
MT (MSU-Billings): O 44, M 40, P 4
Not sure about this pollster, but they did include Paul in the horserace question, and he is a trendy candidate up there
And the biggest shocker of the day is the Big 10 poll of Indiana, which has Obama up ten points...that is ridiculous...neither man has a lead of more than three points either way.
Lastly, Rasmussen checks in with a 51-46 lead for McCain in Georgia...Georgia, for heavens sake...
The latest CBS News/New York Times poll will be released at 6:30pm ET today but a sneak peak at it shows that an increasing number of voters see John McCain as running a negative campaign while more see Obama as explaining what he would do as president.
The IBD poll also has rather unrealistic numbers for the Catholic vote as well. (Not as unrealistic as the 18-24 yr old vote, but the Catholic vote is a much larger percent of the population.)
They have Obama down 9% among Catholics (39% to 48%), whereas most of the other national polls have him up on McCain by 10% or so (vis., the Pew Poll)...or at the very least even with McCain among the Catholic vote.
Maine, Critical Insights:
Obama 56
McCain 35
http://www.wmtw.com/download/2008/1023/17786697.pdf
Nice smackdown! I'd love to be a fly on the wall when word of this post gets back to management of IPD/TIPP.
It seems to me that pollsters of all stripes are going to have to seriously reconsider their likely voter models in the wake of this election. Perhaps in a typical election eliminating voters based on previous voting behavior can eliminate error; but in a "change" election like this one, with large numbers or newly-registered voters, eliminating such voters based on lack of a voting history is likely to introduce far more error than it eliminates.
The problem with the analysis is that youth don't vote. The never have voted. Until they show that they vote, you cannot assume that they will vote.
Kerry-Bush youth vote distribution was 54-46 in 2004. I expect this to increase to 58-42 this time around due to AA voting their skin color. I believe AA vote was only 77% for Kerry last time.
Remember, the conservative youth voter is the more reliable voter. At 18 he is thinking about family, job and home.
Conversely, the liberal youth is preparing for his European trip after high school. Additionally, many will attend all night Obama GOTV parties. Because of their intake of alcohol and the evil weed, they won't be able to get themselves to the polls if they haven't already voted.
On another subject, I am appalled by the presense of goverment agencies located at some of the polling stations. I understand the INS and ATF are having awareness campaigns regarding illegal immigration and drug property forfeiture issues at some of the big city polling areas. Maybe they are just recruiting for new government employees. I hope this doesn't adversely depress voter turnout with anyone.
Drudge: McCain volunteer attacked in Pittsburgh
i love how everyone is trying to analyze their method when it's clear that they're flat out lying. i also love that they're reducing obama's lead at a constant rate: 2.3% and then 2.4% for the last two days. hilarious!
Raj,
Yeah, I assume we were both hitting refresh on blogger for a while.
-Ed.
It's all making sense now. I'm seeing how this election is really just a speedbump on the superhighway of apocalyptic chaos.
Obama and McCain are merely stooges - puppets for us to enjoy.
But I'm seeing something with this Obama campaign that really makes sense for what's in store down the line.
First of all, Obama is NOT the Antichrist, in my opinion. But I'm seeing how, through his candidacy and campaign, that the Antichrist will easily come to power one of these days.
People are such weak-minded fools. They follow something "inspirational" like sheep or lemmings...delusionally caught up in their own emotions and leave all common sense behind.
That's what we've seen with Barack Obama and all the "He's inspired millions!" bullshit. I believe it now, albeit they're nothing more than weak-minded fools.
But if a turd like Obama, who's just a slick-willied, silver-tongued liberal politician from Chicago can "inspire" so many people...and by inspire, I mean blindly fling all of their emotions and heart and soul behind this guy with no regard for anything else...how easy will it be when the Prince of Darkness decides its time to take his stand and try and establish rule over this world.
Hah! If a douche like Obama can be hailed so quickly and easily, then the Devil himself will have no trouble hypnotizing the masses.
It all just made sense right there. Wow. This world's going to hell and a handbasket, and I've got front row seats.
McCain May Skip Own Election Night Party
The GOP nominee plans to deliver his post-election speech outside the Biltmore Hotel in Phoenix in front of a small group of reporters and guests due to space limitations, campaign says.
Video of his remarks will be fed electronically into the party and media filing center. McCain might drop by the party at some other point.
Obama plans to address a giant outdoor celebration in Chicago's Grant Park.
You could technically be 18 and have voted in one of the last two elections. We have them every year, after all. :-) So if you assume someone was born, let's say, prior to Oct 15 1990, they were eligible to vote in November 2007 and might have voted. (They would therefore have to turn 19 before the coming election.)
Still, if pollsters are doing that, they should be shot for incompetence.
I think I just found out how McCain is going to try to win PA. Check out the top headline on Sludge.
Pollsters who knowingly warp the sampling methodology to achieve a biased outcome... with the objective to show the presidential race to be much closer than it really is...
DanP: Why would any pollster risk defaming their reputation this way?
Color me a cynic, but is it just possible that they seek to obtain a good turnout of the base-- artificially showing a close race-- that would otherwise stay home and doom down-ticket Republican candidates.
I am missing the point you are trying to make here.
The BTN National poll is again
Obama 52
Mccain 43
I'm surprised nobut but me has mentioned that. Anybody else watch the Big Ten Battleground 2008 show on BTN?
If you haven't seen this newsweek article, check it out:
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/10/23/is-this-really-a-one-point-race.aspx
Barr thinks Obama is going to win Geogia. That is what he just told Wolf Blitzer on CNN
One more thing. The poll shows McCain with a 52 point lead over Obama (74-22=52) among this age group. If, the "true" numbers are a 15 point lead for Obama, the swing is 52+15=67 points. Since this age group is said to be 9.3 percent of the voting population, the impact is 67 x 0.093 = 6.2 points. In other words, if this is the only error in the poll, it would change the current 1.1 point lead for Obama to a 7.3 point lead for Obama (1.1 + 6.2 = 7.3), which is a "reasonable" result.
Something is seriously off with their weightings. Looking at ideology for instance, the only way that they gut aggregate numbers based on the splits is if they weight 32.5% Conservative, 52.5% Moderate, 15% Liberal. That doesn't seem to be at all consistent with the numbers from this cycle.
@edward & raj man
good job with the compilation...mind if I borrow?
Age 18-24 Voters
Day 1: O:66 / M:26
Day 2: O:74 / M:21
Day 3: O:65 / M:32
Day 4: O:42 / M:50
Day 5: O:38 / M:53
Day 6: O:41 / M:51
Day 7: O:42 / M:52
Day 8: O:46 / M:46
Day 9: O:46 / M:44
Day 10: O:43 / M:53
Day 11: O:22 / M:74
Now there are two big jumps here. Remember, this is a 3 day tracker.
Day 2 was a good Obama day, day 3 reasonable. Day 4 Obama drops by 23% and McCain jumps by 18. That means that Obama got a score 69% lower than he actually had on the average of the previous 2 days (where he was around 69%). Or, to put it another way, on that day he got either a score of roughly zero or negative.
days 9, 10 and 11 are worse: he actually had a certain negative weight on day 11 as day 9 had a score for Obama of at least 46%, or 15% as a 3 day weighting: day 10 had a score of at least 37%, or 12% as a 3 day weighting. Obama's lowest possible score on day 11 was 27%, even if he got zero% on day 11.
Jack-be-nimble: You believe wrong, Kerry got 88% of the AA vote last time. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html
The rest of your post sounds so ridiculous that there's no need to comment.
Election Night In Grant Park: Construction Begins
City Vows To Bill Obama Campaign For Estimated $2 Million In Costs Associated With Outdoor Bash
We don't even need to deconstruct this poll to see it's worthless! ANY poll that has McCain down by 1% is flat wrong!
We have no less than 5 daily tracker polls and they ALL show an absolute MINIMUM of a 4% Obama lead.
The 4% is the outlier, too: GWU Lake Terrance: Obama 49% - McCain 45%.
All the reputable pollsters have similar results:
Rasmussen: 7%, up Obama +1% since yesterday
Gallup: 5% (averaging likely voter models) (McCain up 1.5%)
R2000: Obama +10% unchanged
Diego Hotline Tracker: 5% unchanged
Obama has a VERY stable 5%+ lead right now and there are plenty of other polls that confirm it:
Big Ten: Obama +9
Fox: Obama +9
ABC/Wash. Post: Obama +11
Obama's average lead in Pollster.com's daily tracker is 7.3% (including the IBD/TIPP poll).
Let the wing-nuts chortle and cherry-pick this poll and start crowing "NOBAMA! McCain surge!" and other idiocy.
The race is flat. Early voting has begun. Obama is winning that. Minorities are voting in record numbers already in places like North Carolina. Hispanics are flocking to Obama in record numbers.
By November 4th this race will already have been decided. Even if McCain won the vote on election day by 1% (which he won't) he'd still lose if 20-24% of voters have early voted and Obama has a significant lead among them (which he does in all reports so far).
The other thing that looks odd to my untrained eye: Obama has 44.8% overall, but three of the four regions of the country are above that. Which means that the 40% support from the South counters the 51% from the Northeast and the 47% of the West (the 45% from the Midwest is basically a wash).
Are there really enough voters in the South (-4.8%) to counteract the voters in the Northeast (+6.2%) and West (+2.2%)? I suspect this is not the case.
And if not, is this poll not overweighing the South to a significant degree?
Drudge: McCain volunteer attacked in Pittsburgh
Were they wearing a Cleveland Browns jersey??
This poll, and to a lesser degree the Big 10 polls released earlier today, raises a question I have had for a while: what is the effect of the name on the caller id?
If the University of X calls, who answers? People who went to the University of X? Or do they avoid it assuming it is the alumni organization asking them for $?
Next, if IBD calls, who answers?
If it says "out of area" or "unknown" who answers? I have not seen an analysis of this effect on polling but think it would be informative on the self selection that is occuring in all of these polls.
Ass rider- kind of hard to have an antichrist when god doesn't exist
(my apologies to any religious people here, who will obviously disagree)
Just to reiterate how bad the landline problem is, (anecdotal I know) but the only peers of mine I know (I'm 21) that have landlines are those that get free phone from an apartment complex. Having a landline is a negative status symbol. This landline refusal extends to everyone I know that owns a house as well.
I don't think having a landline is a source of bias within youth polling, but it can definitely make it difficult to get the youth numbers.
Dodd: Bush should name new Treasury secretary after Election Day
going slightly further - I think McCain would have had to have had about 110% of the vote on day 11.
Charitable view? They only hit one voter in that group on day 11, they said McCain, and their sub-samples are so small that their percentages are completely out of whack and rounding ridiculously.
Un-Charitable view? They're lying.
The drudge thing could be just sick race baiting. I mean, out of town white woman, attacked by a dark-skinned man. No video cameras. No police called. No medical attention sought. Woman goes to the press to say it was politically motivated. Very fishy. Let the police work it, not the press.
Nate,
So will this poll go into the model. Or, will the model spit it out as an undigestable and unworthy offering. Don't make it mad.
People, do you know Occam's Razor principle? It can be phrased as "the simplest explanation is usually the right/best one". The simplest explanation of this poll is that the pollsters skewed/made up the numbers. Please stop overanalyzing.
Nate -- can you also comment on the WILD swings this poll seems to throw up in various demographics, e.g. today they report a 20 pt swing in Catholics from Obama to McCain, yesterday it was a similar swing in urban voters. Those are insane numbers, yet their commentary highlights them as if they completely believe them. What's going on?
I think that a similar problem may have caused what seems to be a bit of an outlier for the Montana St. U/Billings Poll that has Obama +4. They state that there was no correlation between age and candidate preference, but then they don't show the numbers at all. At least this poll is transparent enough for us to throw it out in good conscience.
Jeff NYC Dem,
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It takes more faith to believe in something from nothing than something from Something, so I admire you for being so faithful, even if it is blind and ignorant beyond belief.
"I don't think having a landline is a source of bias within youth polling, but it can definitely make it difficult to get the youth numbers."
Pew did some good research that showed this to be false: There is a difference in support between landlined youths and cell-phone-only youths.
You're just another worthless faggot anyway, so your opinion doesn't really matter.
Christopher said...
The drudge thing could be just sick race baiting. I mean, out of town white woman, attacked by a dark-skinned man. No video cameras. No police called. No medical attention sought. Woman goes to the press to say it was politically motivated. Very fishy. Let the police work it, not the press.
My thoughts exactly. Don't expect this to be the last incident. It also opens the door for possible attacks by McCain supporters to become less sensational.
InkStain = another worthless faggot
mule rider, just go away...no-one likes you, wanker.
DaWolf = douchebag faggot
Simply put,
The poll is bogus and irrelevant, however if the data is used here at 538 let's insure that the weight of this poll is somewhere around .02.
My question, what is the history of this poller, been around for at least one presidential election?
There is another reason this thing doesn't pass the smell test. Every big Obama state (NY, California, Ill) is polling in the high teens and twenties. Heck, even some of the toss ups are starting to get into the low double digits. The big McCain State(s?) are at 10 or lower (TX 10, GA 6, even Kentucky and Kansas are below 10). To get to an overall average of 1, you would need either 1) an equal number of big differentials between the solid McCain and the Solid Obama states, or 2) both having small differentials. As long as Obama has huge advantages in the highly populous states in his column and McCain does not with the large state(s?) in his column, this overall poll just can't pass the smell test (unless he is getting 100% in Missippi, Wyoming, Utah, and the state of la la land).
Don't you get it. The Head Faggot - Nate - doesn't really care about any of you losers.
Nice shredding of IBD Nate. But I would suggest IBD is a propaganda outlet, not a pollster. The poll is so ridiculous on its face it is not worthy of your time. In fact, debunking the poll is probably a bad thing: it legitimizes IBD.
By way of comparison, most serious WWII scholars will not debate Holocaust deniers. Holocaust deniers make claims that are so absurd they do not deserve a stage.
IBD is an arm of the Republican Party, not a journalistic outfit. It's polls should be ignored.
All Trolls,
The door is to your RIGHT!
50% to 37% Obama (LV)
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=319
Christain Group
This report is based upon telephone interviews conducted by The Barna Group with a random sample of 1005 adults selected from across the continental United States, age 18 and older, October 11-15, 2008. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with the aggregate sample is ±3.2 percentage points at the 95% confidence level. Minimal statistical weighting was used to calibrate the aggregate sample to known population percentages in relation to several key demographic variables.
To focus on the leanings of "likely voters," 617 such adults were interviewed. A likely voter was defined as one who is registered to vote; voted in the 2004 presidential election; could recall the candidate they voted for that year; and claims they will "definitely" vote in the November election. Among people of voting age who were too young to vote in the 2004 election, the criteria were altered to reflect their ineligible status four years ago. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with the aggregate sample is ±4.2 percentage points at the 95% confidence level.
People, do you know Occam's Razor principle? It can be phrased as "the simplest explanation is usually the right/best one".
No, that's not Occam's Razor. Most simply, it means All things being equal, the simplest solution is preferred.
It's relates to parsimony. Adding unnecessary variables to a model or argument, when it doesn't increase the model or arguments explanatory abilities, is not preferable.
A simple, but less accurate explanation IS NOT "usually right" or "the best one" over a complex, more accurate explanation.
I agree with Lee...in fact, check out my article for a more scathing rebuke of IBD and it's "poll":
http://democratictribune.com
RJ,
Who do you think Obama has in mind for Treasury Sec?
Hawkeye,
The Model has a tough stomach. It takes the Zogby Interactive polls, after all.
18-24:
Day 2: O:74 / M:21
Day 11: O:22 / M:74
So in the last 9 days more than half of American's between the age of 18-24 switched to McCain.
To those who are criticizing the math: I checked it, and it looks like Nate was not simply calculating the probability of the exact result. He was calculating the probability of Obama getting that result or worse. Getting that exact result is about 1000 times more unlikely.
And to all Faggots,
The dick is UP your ASS!
It's so nice and easy to hijack thread after thread and bitch-slap you morons.
You're a bunch of fucking worthless toads. Jag-offs!
Assuming the pollster can round correctly, it seems to me the number of 18-24 year-olds could be as low as 23 (with breakdown M 17 / O 5 / U 1). Next possible sample size is 27 (M 20 / O 6 / U 1). After that none are possible until 47, which doesn't seem small enough to warrant attention.
Even assuming the smallest of these (and your rather generous assumptions) the normal approximation says the outcome is a little over 3 std devs away from the expected.
But there have been a lot of polls, and 1 in 1000 outliers do happen occasionally.
An interesting aside, if the same "chance error" were made the opposite direction, it would put the race as 85% obama 11% McCain, which in that category may not have even been noticed as an outlier. If outliers on the losing side seem worse and are discredited more often than outliers on the winning side, perhaps we should adjust our perceptions to consider as outliers polls erring on the winning side even if they are not as far off as some erring on the losing side.
I think I've discovered one of the other chinks in the poll's armor.
Check out the ideological weightings. My math showed they really distorted the weighting on
"conservative" voters.
To make the math easy I rounded the sample down to 1000 voters rather than 1060 but the idea is the same.
If you weight "conservative" at 49%, "moderate" at 31% and "liberal" at 20%, you end up with
Obama at 45.4%, McCain at 44.2%, very close to the 1.1% difference in the poll.
Now when I check out the weightings in the ABC/Washington Post poll, I found this:
Liberal: 22
Moderate: 44
Conservative 34
Ah, let's plug these weightings into the IBD percentages and see what you get.
Oh, wow
Obama 51.3%
McCain 37.8%
That's one way to skew a poll.
Mule,
I Don't exactly agree with your assessment of Obama being a douche, I like him very much and think he'll be excellent. However IMO it is refreshing to see you are actually raising some valid concerns here.
"Obama and McCain are merely stooges - puppets for us to enjoy."
I'm afraid you're right. But some puppets are better then others, and in 08 Obama is the better puppet.
"But I'm seeing something with this Obama campaign that really makes sense for what's in store down the line. .... People are such weak-minded fools. They follow something "inspirational" like sheep or lemmings...delusionally caught up in their own emotions and leave all common sense behind."
Probably right again, I can see this happening for O now, however, nothing new in 08. It's exactly the same thing that made the people vote Reagan in twice, and made the religious GOP base bother to come to vote for the first time whem GWB worked their emotions thereby earning a win that would have been impossible in any previous election.
So we've seen this before at least 4 times. So thereby there is some hope the rest of your post may not actually happen some time soon.
OK, after reading the words "binomial distribution", I started feeling my math degree oats a bit, so I decided to do a bit more investigating.
I was curious how the different regions were sampled. After all, Obama wins in every single one but the South, yet he's only a bit ahead?
This should be a simple system of linear equations. Taking A as the proportion of Northeast voters, B as the proportion of Midwest, C as south, and D as West, we should see the following equations:
.51A + .45B + .40C + .47D = .448
.33A + .41B + .51C + .44D = .437
.15A + .14B + .09C + .09D = .116
A + B + C + D = 1
This is a simple matrix equation. I used an online matrix calculator. (I used a couple of other sites just to make sure there wasn't some messed up math on the back end.)
Guess what I came up with? According to the calculator, 64% of our population lives in the Midwest, 7% live in the South, 38% live in the West, and NEGATIVE TEN PERCENT live in the Northeast.
And if you put in the numbers for the age vote, you get completely messed up numbers, giant positive and negative ones on the order of several billion. (This looks more like computational error, although you would expect the matrix to be fairly easily solvable.)
Unless I am doing something completely wrong with my math, these numbers are impossible. IBD strongly appears to be cheating somewhere.
Why Nate, I'm shocked that you would expect IBD/TIPP to use an elitist-intellectual-snob data analysis tool like sample bias screening.
I have just one thing to say to the psuedo-statisticians at IBP/TIPP....
PWNED!!!
U been served, loozers!
;)
And 9 point lead Catholics, no way.
That's pretty far off from the 10-15 + Obama we see otherwise
Regarding the B10 Indiana poll, I'm surprised that no one has pointed out the relative undersampling of Republicans. What I mean is that you can look at all of their responses, and it turns out that the breakdown for Dem/Rep/Ind+Other was 31%/33%/33%, but in 2004, Indiana's exit polling indicated a relative breakdown of 32%/46%/22%.
They don't give cross-tabs, but you can come up with reasonable ones and see what would happen if the parties were more representative of 2004 weights.
For example, one way you could get Obama's numbers in the poll (299/586) would be to assume support from 90% of Dems, 10% of Reps, 60% of Independents. Likewise, McCain's support (243/586) could have come from 5% Dems, 90% Reps and 31% Inds.
Applying 2004 weights with these support numbers would have given Obama: 47%, McCain 50%. This is not the only possible result -- one needs to know the actual cross-tabs. But it illustrates the problem with this poll.
One should look at the other states for Party representation and compare it to what would be more realistic to determine the potential bias.
Again, given the either poor polling methodology (incredibly bad statistical luck) or deliberate manipulation, it pays to focus on the median of the daily group of national polls.
In my mind, the fact that steady-handed Rasmussen went Obama +7 today is the most significant event in the daily trackers. My opinion.
However, the states are the real traction. Even if one assumes that the Big 10 and Quinnipiac polls are biased +2 Obama (which may not be the case), they really bode well for a landslide. The key take home results today:
Florida: Obama 49, McCain 44. (Quinnipiac)
Indiana: Obama 51, McCain 41. (Big Ten)
Montana: Obama 44.4, McCain 40.2. (Montana State U.)
Ohio: Obama 52, McCain 38. (Quinnipiac); Obama 53, McCain 41. (Big Ten)
Pennsylvania: Obama 53, McCain 40. (Quinnipiac); Obama 52, McCain 41. (Big Ten)
Georgia: Obama 46, McCain 51 (Rasmussen); Obama 44, McCain 46. (Democracy Corps)
Should this thrashing of the McCain ticket hold up over the weekend, I think a Senate coattail assessment will be in order.
Cheers!
troy said...
RJ,
Who do you think Obama has in mind for Treasury Sec?
i have no idea
So we take every poll and mess with it's internals until it makes sense with what we already believe?
This is the height of cognitive dissonance.
It's a data point. They are all data points. You process it and move on, no need to obsess.
Nate
"About 9.3 percent of the electorate was between age 18-24 in 2004. Let's assume that the percentage is also 9.3 percent this year. Again, this is a highly conservative estimate. The IBD/TIPP poll has a sample size of 1,060 likely voters, which would imply that about 98 of those voters are in the 18-24 age range."
But perhaps not conservative enough.
Supose they are using a LV model that throws out anybody who didn't vote 4 years ago? We do have to assume something like a screwy LV model to get 0+1. That cuts the sample by at least 2/3 as most would have been too young to vote. Rather more as few 18-20 year olds probably voted last time.
Then there is the mobile phone problem to cut it down even more. We are down to something like 25, which would make that "not sure" a sample of 1. Party weighting skews the rest so that a 22/74 split is posible with what would otherwise need a sample of 50.
Shorter Jack-be-nimble:
"Young voters have low turnout rates, which totally proves that McCain is winning 18-24 year-olds by 50 points. Also, I really hope that police officers executing warrants and deporting illegals won't affect turnout *nudge, nudge, wink, wink*"
(Side note: police officers will not be executing warrants at polling location, and before Jack has a chance to bring it up, let me remind you that Democrats and Republicans do not vote on different days.)
Shorter Mule Rider:
"I'm worried about Americans electing the Antichrist. I'm also worried that if Democrats get a filibuster-proof Senate, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny will stop visiting our children. This is a serious issue that deserves discussion."
I shall take this moment to point and laugh at the guy who uses the "Left Behind" series to figure out who to vote for.
Ever since the expat from Santiago, Chile, posted that info on the 6-7 million expats and the Obama efforts abroad, I've wondered how the campaign has been viewing this. I found this 10/13/08 article in an Australian site on line.
"Obaba Told Victory May Depend on Expat Votes"
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election-2008/obama-told-victory-may-depend-on-expat-votes-20081012-4z48.html
"There will be 200,000 to 300,000 voting in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida and Michigan. In all those states, their votes won't even be counted until November 14."
Al Gore's advice to Obama: Don't concede anything in a tight race until all votes are counted.
Does anyone know of any attempts to poll expats?
MSNBC Sees High-Def Debut Next Spring
anyone know the way to get the abcpoll numbers? a url for this?
People have already mentioned the obvious problem of overpolling of the south and midwest. In some cases, you can just recompute the demographics using good old linear algebra. For instance, political ideology of respondents is 15% liberal, 40% moderate, 45% conservative. Looks suspect to me.
IRONY ALERT!!!
Bill O'Reilly and FOX News fears a possible Democratic White House and Congress and GET THIS... A Complicit Press
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/bill-oreilly-laments-possible-democrati
mysticlaker said...
anyone know the way to get the abcpoll numbers? a url for this?
what ABC poll ?
Oh no, not linear algebra....
Brought back memories of my days on campus at University of Wisconsin...
YONG MCCAIN CAMPAIGN VOLUNTEER VICIOUSLY ATTACKED BY BHO PARTISAN!!!
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/oct/23/mccain-volunteer-attacked-but-someone-yelle/
Do you libs have any SHAME?
abc daily tracking...
inkstain,
Did you just learn what "Cognitive Dissonance" means?
Robby,
And we all point and laught at you for feeding the biggest, most aggravating troll on this site.
What a douche.
Pay attention and quick sucking cum out of the gutters.
Though I haven't read all the comments to see if anyone's already said that, it's not clear to me that your statistics are correct, that the probability is 55 billion to 1.
You first say what your default assumption is (what is the probability that it would be 74%-22% _given_ that it's actually 50-50), and then you should ask, what's the probability that it would be 74-22 _or_worse_.
You could use sampling techniques to get at this probability, which you should be familiar with, given that this is the foundation of your site ...
... otherwise, good stuff.
clubok said...
To those who are criticizing the math: I checked it, and it looks like Nate was not simply calculating the probability of the exact result. He was calculating the probability of Obama getting that result or worse. Getting that exact result is about 1000 times more unlikely.
So that's where the trillion came from? lol
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/oct/23/mccain-volunteer-attacked-but-someone-yelle/
Disgusting behavior by a BHO partisan.
"Did you just learn what "Cognitive Dissonance" means?"
Nope. But I found out years ago that it explains almost every political discussion on the internet. (And most of human behavior)
Let's get this straight. I'm a troll. If you feed me, you're a douche.
Jack-be-nimble said...
The problem with the analysis is that youth don't vote. The never have voted. Until they show that they vote, you cannot assume that they will vote.
The rest of your post can foad, but the part I've quoted here, I agree with.
People on this site are making A LOT of assumptions about voter turn out based on a feeling of enthusiasm for which we have ZERO reliable predictive metrics.
I got it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/postpoll_102308.html
54-43 still....
"People on this site are making A LOT of assumptions about voter turn out based on a feeling of enthusiasm for which we have ZERO reliable predictive metrics."
Agreed. I remain neutral in the War of the Likely Voter Models.
Mule Rider
Whoops! New thread. I guess you'll have to start over with your inane ramblings.
One more punchline to the sad string of jokes that is the corpus of your comments on this site. It's almost as if no one really cares what you think, and we just enjoy watching you flail madly at the state of the world.
Really, how much does your life suck?
Rasmussen has generic vote changing with a 2% narrowing of the generic vote towards Reps.
Btw, I believe IBD-tipp had the closest margin last time. You might notice that they have a higher undecided than some others. This may be a part of the problem with the Obama+7 polls. As to the Obama+10 or more polls, I would say that they are foolish. You cannot trust any poll by Newsweek, Time, Abc, NBC.
Look at the research as to who is doing the poll. Fox has two polling affiliates. Both have track records. Rasmussen has a relatively good polling track, whereas, Opinion Dynamics has been terrible for many years now. I believe they got five of eight battleground polls with the wrong winner last time.
This is amazing:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/
Obama Ties-up McCain in "Red States"
With an 11-point advantage among likely voters in today's Washington Post-ABC News tracking poll, Barack Obama maintains his largest national lead of the campaign in Post-ABC polling.
In addition to the state polls out today from Quinnipiac and the University of Wisconsin, another way to see the magnitude of the Democrat's progress is to see how well he is currently doing across so-called "red" and "purple" states.
In the latest four-night track, Obama holds a commanding 22-point advantage in states John F. Kerry won in 2004, and he is about tied with John McCain in states Bush won last time (49 percent Obama, 48 percent McCain). Similarly, Obama is up 60 to 36 percent in states Kerry won by more than five and trails by a smaller 52 to 45 percent margin in states Bush carried that easily. In those crucial states decided by five or fewer points in 2004, Obama is up 21 points.
All questions released today are here
In the new data, 90 percent of all voters, including 87 percent of whites, said they'd be comfortable with the notion of Obama's being the first black president. Nearly three quarters of whites said they'd be "entirely comfortable" with it. Those numbers have changed little over the course of the campaign.
By contrast, far fewer, 50 percent, are okay with the idea of McCain's taking office at age 72. About as many, 49 percent, are uncomfortable with that; those numbers have also held steady. Even seniors are split 50 to 47 percent on the question.
Another factor still dragging on McCain is the widespread perception he would continue to lead the country along the course set by George W. Bush. More than half of likely voters, 52 percent, hold that view; fewer, 45 percent think McCain would instead chart a different course from the wildly unpopular GOP president.
Also, Obama's advantage on dealing with the economy is up to 18 (56 to 38 percent), his largest of the campaign. One modest bright spot for McCain is among veterans, who break for the Republican nominee by a 53 to 44 percent margin.
It's a data point. They are all data points. You process it and move on, no need to obsess.
There is no need to parse endlessly or obsess over single data points, but there is a place for analysis. The simple fact is that most people are not as tuned in to numbers as the people that worship at the altar of Nate, and there are far more people that take pollsters' words to be the gospel rather than bother to look at the internals.
Case in point. Some talking head on TeeVee said something about how a recent poll (AP, from yesterday) showed the race to be a statistical dead heat. My DH was mortified, until I explained to him the possible reasons why. I'm sure this new number will likely pop up somewhere, and will provide a chance to inform and discuss.
Robby,
Can't be any worse than your pathetic paranoid life.
If you weren't too busy butt-fucking your faggot friends, you might actually enjoy some things life has to offer.
You'll die of HIV/AIDS. I hope your genitals rot off.
Florida Poll: Obama Ahead
St. Petersburg Times/Bay News 9/Miami Herald poll
Obama 49, McCain 42
It's now pretty clear which pollsters are corrupt. Not just in the tank for McCain, but outright CORRUPT.
In that situation, I'd rather just explain that in an O+7 environment where we are getting dozens of pollsters weighing in, we expect a few O+1 and O+13s.
Yes, all crimes commmitted by obama or mccain supporters are the fault of the campaigns. perfect.
"It's now pretty clear which pollsters are corrupt. Not just in the tank for McCain, but outright CORRUPT."
Completely disagree. Sorry to repeat what I just posted, but it's *normal* to have an O+1 and O+13 poll in an O+7 environment.
It just goes to show how fascistally violent BHO paritsans are.
I guess we can expect more violence from BHO Stormtroopers after the election.
Maybe this brutal attack will be the turning point...
prof skunk:
Therefore, we need more analysis on data (such as the IBP 'joke poll') or the process before accepting the outlier label, do you agree?
That assumes that such detailed data is available for the poll. If a poll has weird-looking results it's incumbent upon the pollster to provide supporting information to justify them; it's not incumbent upon the critic to refrain from criticism until the data are available. Otherwise you're just rewarding pollsters for being less transparent and not giving you the information to "prove" they've done something wrong.
Note also that Nate is generally careful to say "this looks like an outlier," not "this is definitely an outlier."
Mule Rider
You can always tell who doesn't know what he's talking about on the internet, because he's the first to call someone else gay.
Plus, it's not 1985 anymore; nobody's insulted if you call them gay. That would be like call me Portuguese; no, I'm not Portuguese, thank you very much.
But, seriously, enjoy your life affirming moments of being directly addressed (oooooh, attention!) by people who have never regarded your opinion as anything more than random drivel.
And as for "feeding the trolls" and "thread hijacking", we all know you're going to say the same worthless nonsense regardless of what we do, so I see no harm in having a little fun along the way.
Cheers!
RWC,
Ss a typical dumb RepubliCon you are lead by the nose by Drudge garbage. Obama partisan? Yea right! The entire story is suspect to put it mildly. Drudge has become rich on the stupidity of people like you.
Yes. You are right it's the turning point. All 53% of the population of Obama supporters is responsible for his horrible act. We should go to jail. Powell should go to jail. The whole world should go jail and be responsible for one terrible person. You are correct. I am going to turn myself in right now.
Persuter said...
Unless I am doing something completely wrong with my math, these numbers are impossible.
A+!
Needs more attention.
PorridgeGun doesn't get first grade math. Why would we think he'd get statistical analysis of polling data.
He should be castrated publicly.
RWC
It just goes to show how fascistally violent BHO paritsans are.
...Or, this could be one guy who's a total douchebag that also happens to be an Obama supporter.
I mean, considering how many Obama supporters there are, it's a statistical certainity that at least one of them will be an unbalanced, hyperviolent jack-off who deserves to spend the rest of his/her life in a padded room.
In a similar vein, considering the significantly smaller but still admittedly large group of people who support John McCain, it's a statistical certainty that at least one of them will be reasonable, principled, articulate, intelligent and fair-minded in his criticism of Barack Obama.
We just don't have anyone like that posting on this site right now.
Robby,
I didn't call you gay. I said you're a "butt-fucking faggot."
There's a difference. One brings to mind two effeminate gents casually and gently caressing each others genitalia while listening to some nice classical music or maybe even a little Mariah Carey.
A "butt-fucking faggot" is a worthless scumbag who delivers hard-core pounding and ravaging to the anus of another male, then switching and being on the receiving end for a while, until ass-holes are bloody and sphincters damaged...all while listening to something like Seether or Mudvayne.
Inkstain,
Thanks for your comment. I agree.
Given variances and heaven know what else going on, then the median of the polls remains the robust indicator...
There is certainly still room either for ineptitude or even manipulation, but that doesn't have to be the case.
OK, after looking into a bit more, the region matrix is apparently non-invertible (which seems awfully convenient).
The youth vote is invertible, however -- and the numbers are still out to lunch.
I wouldn't trust any poll from IBD. Here in NC, I just got a piece of direct scare mail from the nc republican state executive committee referencing some anti Obama article in IBD. This is just some phony poll designed to make the race look closer than it really is so the GOP base doesn't just give up and not bother to vote. I'm glad the nc republicans wasted their money sending me and my wife scare mail, because we've both already voted early for Obama!!! haha!!!
Mule Rider
A "butt-fucking faggot" is a worthless scumbag who delivers hard-core pounding and ravaging to the anus of another male, then switching and being on the receiving end for a while, until ass-holes are bloody and sphincters damaged...all while listening to something like Seether or Mudvayne.
...Again, I don't know how you've gotten this idea that I'm Portuguese, but I'm not Portuguese. You can keep calling me Portuguese if you like, but it's not going to offend me.
I apologize if that hinders your trolling, but, c'est la vie.
Ever notice how, when right-wingnuts are losing a debate in a forum -- or an election -- they quickly reveal their homophobia, racism and other forms of bigotry? Kinda like McCain's dishonorable and disgusting campaign.
And to assmole: the Detroit News endorsing McLame is about as significant as a weatherman announcing the sun will rise in the east. I believe they have never endorsed a Democrat for president.
You don't deny you're a fucking queer then, huh? I knew I had you pegged. Go suck a fat dick, you lardass faggot.
Mule Rider
You're not getting it, M.R.: I'm not insulted when you call me gay, or super gay, or even super-duper-ultra-Liberace-Clay Aiken gay. So, I don't feel any need to deny it, even if it's not true.
That was the point of the whole Portuguese analogy, which I apologize for: that was way to subtle for your simple brain. If you like, I can walk you through it sometime.
Man, M.R., watching your idiotic tantrums never ceases to amuse me.
*butt fucks Mule Rider*
Dearest Mule Rider,
Meet me at the nearest mall. I hear there's a sale at J.C. Penny's.
I will school your un-faggot ass in the art of savings, bitch.
Sincerely,
K "Faggot" S.
New flawed AP poll claims McCain and Obama are tied. Will AP's pollster take Nate Silver's challenge?
Also includes video of AP's Ron Fournier & Liz Sidoti cozying up to McCain
http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/new-flawed-ap-poll-claims-mccain-and.html
Nobody butt-fucks me. Bring it on. I'll kick your ass any day. Prepare for my balls to be on your chin.
Hmm, isn't 4% of 1000 about 40 people? How come you have a sample size of 98?
With regards to the landline phone issue and being young...I didn't have a landline at all for years until I ordered DSL and had to get a landline for connectivity. I don't use it, (have NEVER given that number to anybody) and I got polled a couple weeks ago on it.
Despite Nate's great analysis, I think this question is far easier to answer:
IBD is a conservative clown show once you start reading anything other than their market analysis. Their editorial page is like reading the front page at Red State on a really bad day.
Mule Rider, you want KS to give you oral sex? Are you finally coming out of the closet?!?!?!
I'm so proud of you for accepting yourself for who you really are. I'm sure you can find a few GLBT advocacy groups on the internet to help ease the transition into your new identity as an open homosexual.
Hell, the Republican Party even has a caucus for you: the Log Cabin Republicans!
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