10.29.2008

The Undecideds

Earlier tonight, I suggested that there were in fact proportionately more undecideds among white voters than black voters, as the McCain campaign claimed today. This was based mostly on a recollection of numbers that I'd looked at several weeks ago when the fraction of undecideds was higher. However, this claim is more debatable now.

Below, among seven current polls which have released racial breakdowns, are the numbers of voters who did not declare their support for either major-party candidate. These totals include undecideds as well as third-party votes -- a group that I refer to as "uncommitted" voters.

Undecided + Other

Pollster       White     Black     Hispanic
===========================================
Gallup 6 5 8
Research 2K 8 2 4
Rasmussen 3 6 7
Battleground 7 5 7
Economist 10 5 11
Pew 12 9 --
Zogby 6 3 --
===========================================
AVERAGE 7.2 5.4 7.4
A somewhat higher proportion of whites (and Latinos) are uncommitted, but the differences are not overwhelming. Suppose that McCain were to win 2/3 of white uncommiteds -- which I'd probably consider optimistic, although perhaps not since the uncommitted whites appear to be fairly downscale. Suppose also that Obama wins 90 percent of black uncommitteds and 60 percent of Latino uncommitteds. Suppose furthermore that the breakdown of white/black/Latino voters is 74/12/10, reflecting slight increases in the latter two groups from 2004's 77/11/8. Under these assumptions, McCain would pick up 3.9 points from uncommitteds and Obama 2.8 points, a net gain of 1.1 points for McCain:

Uncommitted Allocation I
Group       % of Electorate    to McCain   to Obama
White 5.33 --> 3.55 1.78
Black 0.65 --> 0.06 0.58
Latino 0.74 --> 0.30 0.44
===================================================
Total 6.72 --> 3.91 2.81
As I said, however, these assumptions are arguably optimistic for McCain. What if, instead, the distribution of the uncommitteds roughly resembles that of committed voters within each racial group, which means that whites go about 57/43 for McCain, blacks go 95/5 for Obama, and Hispanics go 65/35 for Obama? Under this set of assumptions, the undecideds split essentially evenly:

Uncommitted Allocation II
Group       % of Electorate    to McCain   to Obama
White 5.33 --> 3.04 2.29
Black 0.65 --> 0.03 0.62
Latino 0.74 --> 0.26 0.48
===================================================
Total 6.72 --> 3.33 3.39
Another problem is that we haven't been distinguishing undecided voters from third-party voters. There is an argument that third-party voters should be treated as quasi-undecided voters, since third party support tends to collapse at the voting booth. Nevertheless, Bob Barr and Ralph Nader will probably pick up a collective 1-2 percent of the electorate, and third party support tends to be overwhelmingly concentrated among white voters.

Four of the seven polls distinguished undecided voters from third-party voters. Looking only at those four polls:

"True" Undecideds
Pollster       White     Black     Hispanic
===========================================
Research 2K 2 2 1
Rasmussen 2 5 4
Battleground 4 3 4
Economist 6 3 11
===========================================
AVERAGE 3.5 3.3 5.0

With the third-party votes removed, there is essentially no difference between the number of white and black undecideds, though Latinos perhaps are undecided at somewhat higher rates.

Long story short ... given optimistic assumptions (McCain wins 2/3 of white undecideds, 100 percent of third-party support collapses), the undecided vote is worth a net of about a point for McCain. Given what I'd consider to be more neutral assumptions, there's no particular reason to think that the undecided vote favors him.

My guess is that the truth is somewhere in between and that this is worth, say, half a point for McCain. Even give him the full point if you like. This effect is probably smaller than that of the cellphone problem, from which there may be 1-2 points of cushion in Obama's direction. If on top of that the polls are being overly conservative with their likely voter modeling, the numbers are more likely to be underestimating Obama's standing than overestimating it.

354 comments

Jeremy said...

Will people please calm down?

So far today we have R2K +6, Zogby +5, Ras +3 and a ton of awesome state numbers which mean more than any nat'l number. And with the exception of perhaps FL there is no signs of tightening.

So chill and don't lose focus.

Real Joe said...



New Obama Ad

Link

MysticLaker said...

wow@real joe.

brutal ad.

Real Joe said...

CNN-TIME polls coming out

Rick said...

Real Joe said...


"New Obama Ad"

Damn, nice ad. Kills him on judgement and the economy.

Brad said...

I am not panicking, we are in very good shape. Obama is in a true position of power in the national trackers and the only polls that really matter are of PA, OH, FL, VA, CO and maybe NH and NM depending on the scenario.

There is tightening, but we should be far from panic. The national trackers would need to go negative for Obama before his lead in the electoral college would flip.

The question is, if the states polls have followed the trackers most of this cycle(they have even though they should not for a number of reasons, and they may not now because of the increased polling) will they tighten over the weekend.

Yes, the infomercial should help Obama, here's hoping he hits facts as well as stories.

MysticLaker said...

quinnipac polls:

PENNSYLVANIA: Obama 53, McCain 41
OHIO: Obama 51, McCain 42
FLORIDA: Obama 47, McCain 45

http://thepage.time.com/

MysticLaker said...

link for quinnipac

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?ReleaseID=1224

Christopher said...

Hmmm, where did you see Rass +3? They don't post for another hour.

The state polls are looking insurmountable for McCain. But, based on the national he may be picking up some population in large states like Cal, NY, and Texas.

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

Let's first look at all the state polls already out today before we talk about a tightning. PA double digits, OH +7 and +9, CO +9, NV +12. Those are pretty positive numbers for Obama.

Jeremy said...

christopeher:

Drudge

Real Joe said...



Palin Suggests Obama Would Re-Write Constitution

Link

Dave from San Antone said...

AH THE AIR OF INEVITIBILITY!
Got up early. Started watching Morning Joe. Realized that the inevitibility has sunk in, and there is nothing that can change what is happening. The new Polls. HUGE leads in Nevada, Colorado, New Hampshire and Pennsylvania and Ohio and leads everywhere else. There is no turning back. All of a sudden, I see Joe Scarborrogh has to admit the inevitibility of it as everyone soberly discusses the facts. "Barack went to Occidental, then to Harvard to lead the Harvard Law Review, then organized in the streets of Chicago. All he could do was become DESTINED to become President of the United States." As simple as that, and it was done.
A jovial Chris Mathhews comes on the set, and they tell him what's happening. Chris Matthews says yep, don't worry, be happy, and EVERYONE is happy. Joe quietly quips "power to the people", Chris looks him up and down, they both giggle, and Joe looks as resigned as a little puppy with it's tail between it's legs.
It's going to work.

newsinOH said...

My fun is to see how long before O's new ads hit the air here in OH, then hearing how long before my elderly relatives call to tell me all about it . . . pathetic, I know, but how else to stay sane these days?

O's track record has been hours before it's aired, usually during morning shows. By afternoon, it's aired enough so that most people have seen it.

My elderly relatives will definitely call me about this one. They uniformly despise Palin.

Real Joe said...



(AP)

Palin to fly home to Alaska to vote in election

hermance said...

@davy: "Surely you can't deny that this presidential race hasn't taken on an air of McCarthyism."

I don't. I just disagree that McCarthyism is from the 60s, since McCarthy died in '57 and the HUAC's heyday was in 1953 and had waned by late '54.

Just because you "lived it" doesn't mean you see it clearly. I'd counter that *because* you lived during such a tumultuous time, it can make it extremely difficult to see America ever moving past it. It was absolutely a devastating decade, so I think it makes lots of sense for folks who lived through it to see almost everything through that lens.

But, America has a long history of racism, violence, jingoism, imperialism, and corporate militarism, of which the '60s make up only a part. I wouldn't say that there aren't parallels between now and the '60s, but I think most boomers' default comparison point is almost always the '60s, whereas I would argue that it is just one comparison point among many possible. I think there are lots of ways we could look at the parallels between now and Reconstruction or the Progressive Era.

Plus, there are many ways that the '60s comparison just doesn't hold. For example, the lack of assassinations, riots, mainstream mass protests, and a draft. In addition, I'd say we live in an era where any notion of the federal government supporting a Great Society is virtually impossible. And, of course, we are post-Watergate and post-Reagan.

And, please, lay off the condescension. Just because I am younger than you are does not mean that I am 12 years old and have only watched VH1 rocumentaries about the 60s or something.

Brad said...

AP polls on MSNBC show huge numbers for Obama.

Real Joe said...

its all about getting 270 EV's

Brad said...

Obama in lead or tied in 8 swing states.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AP_POLL_BATTLEGROUNDS?SITE=NCKIN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

don't panic said...

the solid lead in the states accounts for 311 electoral votes right now,
wit minor leads in FL, NC, MO for another 53.

maccain has 132 solid and a lead for 42 other votes.


there is no reason to be worried for now

Brad said...

AP polls

The polling shows Obama holding solid leads in Ohio (7 percentage points), Nevada (12 points), Colorado (9) and Virginia (7), all red states won by Bush that collectively offer 47 electoral votes. Sweeping those four - or putting together the right combination of two or three - would almost certainly make Obama president.

In addition, Obama is tied with McCain in North Carolina and Florida, according to the AP-GfK polling, two vote-rich states Bush carried in 2004. Obama is throwing his time and money into the Sunshine State, which has 27 votes, part of a strategy to create many routes to victory and push toward a landslide of 300 or more electoral votes. North Carolina has 15 votes.

Matt said...

More evidence of tightening in national numbers from CNN...

O: 51
M: 46

CNN Poll

To be expected I think. Anyone who thought McCain was going to end up in the low 40s was off his/her rocker. Race has stabilized at about a +5 Obama lead, give or take a point or two dep[ending on which pollster you pick.

Will be interesting to see if any of this is reflected in the CNN state polls later today. My hunch is not much.

Brad said...

Cronkite/Eight poll:

http://www.politicker.com/latest-cronkiteeight-poll-has-obama-within-two-az


The new Cronkite/Eight poll out Tuesday evening shows Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) trailing Sen. John McCain of Arizona by two points, 44 to 46. Since the margin of error is plus or minus three points, the race is a statistical tie in Arizona.

hermance said...

I think it's ok to be worried--maybe not about the outcome of the election--but about a VP candidate who is willing to say that her opponent wants to rewrite the Constitution. That article scared the hell out of me, real joe. Are conservatives so despondent about the appeal of their own governing philosophy that this is the only way they can imagine "persuading" voters to come to their side?

Matt said...

Oops, sorry. My bad - that CNN poll is old.

samule said...

rasmussen tightening and again leaking to drudge is definitely part of a call for more attention, which makes me guess they will continue that same tightening narrative until election day no matter what happens...they'll have to rethink their strategy after the election and I hope Nate will rethink their credibility

word verification: readi, ready for change!

Dave Brodbeck said...

@hermance, excellent points. one of the reasons i am pro Obama is that he did NOT live through the 60s culture wars (in any meaningful way). I wish to hell the western world would get past the fixation on a that time (no matter how good the soundtrack was...)

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

Hermance:

It's not at all like the 60's---haven't had a good hit of acid in years.

In all seriousness--I tend to agree with you. One could look at anytime in history and find some kind of parallel with what is going on today.

Dave from San Antone said...

I was wondering about that, matt!
It's SOOOoooooo over!

Shawn said...

From Wizbang's DJ Drummond:

"2006 was a bad year for republicans, a year when republicans stayed home and democrats used the opportunity to win a number of close races and take over control of the House and Senate. In a number of states, therefore, it's not surprising that democratic party supporters gained a few points (usually 1 to 3 points) relative to 2004 in voter participation. So I went back and looked at voters by party affiliation, and compared those balances to this year's weighting by Survey USA. In thirty-six states, the party affiliation weights for democrats used by SUSA was five points or more higher than in 2006, a high-water mark for democrats. In twenty states, the party afiiliation weights for democrats used by SUSA was ten points or more higher than in 2006, and in eight states, the party affiliation weights used for democrats by SUSA was thirteen points or more higher than in 2006. Significant battleground states affected by this bias are as follows:

Pennsylvania: D+5 in 2006, SUSA using D+19, 15 point variance
Indiana: R+14 in 2006, SUSA using R+1, 13 point variance
Nevada: R+7 in 2006, SUSA using D+6, 13 point variance
Colorado: R+3 in 2006, SUSA using D+9, 12 point variance
Iowa: R+2 in 2006, SUSA using D+10, 12 point variance
Virginia: R+3 in 2006, SUSA using D+9, 12 point variance
Ohio: D+3 in 2006, SUSA using D+13, 10 point variance
Missouri: R+1 in 2006, SUSA using D+7, 8 point variance
North Carolina: R+1 in 2006, SUSA using D+5, 6 point variance

I've looked at the publicly available records on historical election participation, 2008 new voter registrations, and the Census information on these states, but I can find no valid reason for such large and arbitrary changes in political affiliation weightings. I would therefore submit that the models being used for many of the state polls have design flaws, which threaten the credibility of their published results."

Reason for doubt? I guess we will see...

Richard Grusin said...

Nothing makes me feel good like 538.com, as I blogged about last week: http://premediation.blogspot.com/2008/10/polling-projection-premediation.html

bugstomper said...

rick and kirby96,

According to Early Vote 2008 PA had 5.5% early votes in the 2004 election. Either the poll has too small a sample size, or that 10% is indicating an interesting difference from 2004.

With all the hoopla about how PA is going to suffer from long waits on election day, and the video of Phillie election official Fred Voigt telling voters who are concerned about waiting hours in line to "get a life" and that some of them might just not be able to get to vote, perhaps we are seeing many people using absentee ballots. One allowable reason is

"An individual who, because of the elector's duties, occupation or business (including leaves of absence for teaching, vacations and sabbatical leaves), expects on Election Day to be absent from his/her municipality of residence during the entire period the polls are open for voting (7am - 8pm)"

I can see people anticipating hours long waits and not being able to get to the polls and to work on the same day and filing for absentee ballots. I can see people not trusting the electronic voting machines and claiming work reasons in order to get absentee ballots. If there is much greater than the historical 5.5% percentage of voters using absentee ballots then it would make sense for the majority of the people doing so being voters for Obama who are trying to not be disenfranchised.

Brad said...

Noone has confirmed that Ras number. I wil wait for Antmatic to post or some known subscriber.

justin32099 said...

The national numbers do appear to be narrowing a bit, but it's more of a pickup for McCain of undecided voters than a departure away from Obama. Since Obama's at 50% or higher already in almost all polls, that's good. And, as people have said, on the state level things are looking even better.

That said, I am worried because of the terrible negative consequences a McCain/Palin presidency would bring us, and the chance of that happening is still not zero. If 9999 of Nate's 10000 simulations had Obama winning, I will still be worried about that 10,000th one.

PA John said...

PA Morning Call Tracker:

Obama 53
McCain 42

Pretty much in step, Obama has been 52-53 for WEEKS

Matt said...

brad - Ras has leaked to Drudge before so I suspect that Ras number is correct - either 50-47 or 49-46.

I have a problem with pollsters leaking info to a bottom feeder like Drudge, but that's another matter.

Brad said...

Ahhh, the Ras national tracker in on Drudge. If true, this does show real tightening folks - GOTV and vote yourself!

The states polls have lagged the trackers, but we still look very good in state polling. That is no reason for complacency!

newsinOH said...

The link real joe posted about Palin and rewriting the Constitution is shocking (and how could anything be shocking at this stage of the game?)

Palin is dangerous. She says whatever shit pops into her tiny, addled mind (because the majority of her brain is focused on grabbing power by whatever means necessary). She could be the scariest candidate ever.

Real Joe said...

pa john said...
PA Morning Call Tracker:

Obama 53
McCain 42


McCain Surge !!!

hermance said...

shawn, does drummond go into any more depth than: "I've looked at the publicly available records on historical election participation, 2008 new voter registrations, and the Census information on these states..." That strikes me as incredibly vague--along the lines of, "Trust me. I looked. And it didn't make sense to me, so it must be wrong."

But I would assume that census figures would show an increase in Latino voters in, say, North Carolina (among other states) and that new voter registration numbers would show at least a lean toward Democrats in almost all of the states he's listed. I'd like to see more analysis than just "The records don't justify the gap" because he hasn't explained what the records *do* justify. Certainly, there are some indications that the electorate isn't exactly the same as it was in 2006 (which seems like an odd comparison since it was a mid-term election, which never gets the same turnout).

I'm not saying there isn't reason to be skeptical of party affiliation estimates in polls, but I am saying that I don't find his critique specific enough to be convincing, based on what you posted here.

Real Joe said...

gallup, hotline out ?

Antmatic said...

As long as Obama stays at 50-51% in most of these national polls, he's in fine shape. McCain picking up undecideds in the final week was not unexpected...

I am guessing Rasmusen is like 50-47 today. That's not a bad result. I hope it's 51-48.

Dave from San Antone said...

At this point, the national Presidential polls don't mean a thing. Let's face it! There is as close to a 0% chance for a McCain victory as it can get. These hundreds of state polls over the last week trump ANY concewrn that ANY national poll could give.
IT'S OVER, OVER AND DONE WIT. THE FAT LADY DONE ALREADY SUNG!!!!!!!!

Brad said...

PA trcker still looking good for BHO!

http://www.muhlenberg.edu/studorgs/polling/

elliv said...

PA Tracker
O up again, now +13
I think we are beginning to see a trend here. Where O have groundgame and ads he is still holding up.

Brad said...

Ras is the lead story at Drudge, says it is 3.

He is also headlining the traditional voter mdoel (?) at Gallup at 2.

Tim said...

I am not a typical reader of of The Weekly Standard, but this article is worth reading. It is the analytical version of the david sedaris in the New Yorker about how the undecideds have not made up their minds yet they are essentially lying



http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/756hfpns.asp

Seretse said...

The race is definitely tightening.

The state polls may be as well, those state polls were all taken on or before the 26th. We'll have to see.

elliv said...

+11 sorry

Real Joe said...

PA is not moving towards McCain

+ 13

good news for Obama

InkStain said...

The national polls do mean something, and it'd be preferable for Obama if this wasn't happening. Let's not pretend otherwise.

But it's not unexpected, Obama's numbers aren't consistently going under 50%, and the state polling is still obscenely good.

Not worried.

Brad said...

Whers' Inkstain to say:

"Yes, the polls are tightening, but noone has flipped a race this late without a significant event"

Brad said...

Hey, there is inkstain.

Jeremy said...

Enough with this "state numbers follow nat'l numbers" bullshit!

They DON'T.

State polls tend to be conducted less frequently than national polls, so it appears they are following them. But they aren't.

However,the lag in polling is no longer the case. We get a VA, PA, OH, FL poll almost ever day now.

I had thought there might be more to it than simple lag in polling intervals, but there doesn't seem to be after some looking.

It's a myth so stop repeating it and worrying yourselves sick.

Buckeye said...

Ras will be 51 to 48 for Obama.

MysticLaker said...

@buckeye - I'll take that if it's true....That is a number I can live with.

InkStain said...

Yes, the polls are tightening, but noone has flipped a race this late without a significant event. And it represents underexcited Republicans breaking to McCain, not any loss in Obama support, of which he already has enough. And early voting means that McCain doesn't just have to tighten the race, he needs to take a decisive lead.

Good enough for ya? :)

Jeremy said...

I Think Ras will be 50-47

Buckeye said...

How relevant is a lot of these polls when they don't take into account third party candidates?

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

Thanks Ink, the cosmos is back in balance.

Seretse said...

inkstain said...
The national polls do mean something, and it'd be preferable for Obama if this wasn't happening. Let's not pretend otherwise.


Another thing, Obama's Cable Advertising last week:
$855,000 down from $4,062,000 the week before.
National Advertising last week $583,000 down from $5,669,000 the week before.

Perhaps this could be the reason for national poll tightening.
Perhaps it's just messaging and McCain's negative attacks are working.

Real Joe said...



Politico:

Arizona Democratic Party Chair plans to hold a media call at 2:30 pm ET to argue polling suggests "Senator McCain is in danger of losing his home state."

InkStain said...

"How relevant is a lot of these polls when they don't take into account third party candidates?"

Fairly relevant, I suspect. It's a lot easier to tell a pollster you are voting third-party than to actually do it.

(this post brought to you from a guy who almost flinched and voted Bush instead of Nader in 2000. Long story...)

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

Buckeye, there are a lot of things they don't account for--but it's what we have to work with.

Buckeye said...

Anyone notice that RCP has Obama at 375 electoral votes.

jnorthrop said...

Sometimes I wonder if this is a polling analysis site, or a support group.

Imagine if all of the numbers were flipped. How would you feel about Obama's chances then? I would struggle to find the motivation to even vote.

InkStain said...

"Imagine if all of the numbers were flipped. How would you feel about Obama's chances then? I would struggle to find the motivation to even vote."

They'd cherrypick a close poll or two and convince themselves they had a chance.

See Kerry 2004.

djl said...

I can't imagine the lack of third party candidates is a big deal in the polling. In the vast majority of cases, if it's close enough for a third-party candidate to matter, it's going to be a statistical tie anyway.

jnorthrop said...

@Real Joe said...

"Arizona Democratic Party Chair plans to hold a media call at 2:30 pm ET to argue polling suggests "Senator McCain is in danger of losing his home state.""

It will be fun to see if this call gets some traction in the MSM tonight. It helps reinforce the "things are looking bad for McCain" narrative.

SHERWICK said...

Geez if all the numbers were flipped it would not look good at all.

:(

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

Buckeye, that is with no toss ups--they jumped to 311 from 306. Is the movement of MT and ND to toss-ups new?

shadowguidex said...

I'm willing to bet Obama will win all 375 votes on RCP, and will also claim Georgia, Arizona, and possibly Montana, for a 403 EV win.

The numbers in early voting is just too hard to ignore in Georgia, and the GOP voters in Arizona are totally complacent and don't expect a challenge.

shadowguidex said...

"Buckeye, that is with no toss ups--they jumped to 311 from 306. Is the movement of MT and ND to toss-ups new?"

Nevada went light blue.

InkStain said...

"The numbers in early voting is just too hard to ignore in Georgia, and the GOP voters in Arizona are totally complacent and don't expect a challenge."

I'm definitely keeping a close eye on that. It's just impossible to tell if Obama's just cannibalizing his Eleciion Day vote or if he's actually getting new turnout.

If the final turnout in Georgia is anything remotely close to the 35.4% black/56.0% women that the early voting has shown thus far, Obama wins the state by 5.

Dave from San Antone said...

I'd suggest that everyone cools their heels and then waits for today's gallup poll, then average the two expanded polls, and you should be close to Obama's margin of victory given the early voting, no matter what (if any) tightening of the polls occur for McCain. (I really think that any possible tighteninig will evaporate before the last national polls. The state pols have spoken WAY, WAY. WAY too loudly to change +10 points in three or four days!

MysticLaker said...

Info about the 30 minutes...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/us/politics/29obama.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Seretse said...

inkstain said...
I'm definitely keeping a close eye on that. It's just impossible to tell if Obama's just cannibalizing his Eleciion Day vote or if he's actually getting new turnout.

According to one of his Aides, a comfortable percentage of these votes are sporadic or new voters.

Seretse said...

mysticlaker said...
Info about the 30 minutes...

I read that. Was wondering if you guys thought it might be overkill.

InkStain said...

"According to one of his Aides, a comfortable percentage of these votes are sporadic or new voters."

And according to McCain's aides, the Republican candidate might win Pennyslvania, but I don't believe that either. I'd like something a little more concrete before I believe it. :)

It's *possible* these are a comfortable percentage of new voters. But I'm healthily skeptical.

Dave from San Antone said...

"state polls" (big difference)

InkStain said...

Game-changer!

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/i_would_make_a_bad_president_obama

MysticLaker said...

@seretse

No way...I am sure it has been focused group, and is well balanced.

slicknickshady said...

Tightening happens every election.

InkStain said...

"Tightening happens every election."

Not exactly. But it does happen more often than not and isn't unexpected in this one.

Seretse said...

inkstain said...
"According to one of his Aides, a comfortable percentage of these votes are sporadic or new voters."

Comfortable was my word. They actually had hard numbers. Not sure if that affects your skepticism. Are you still as confident about an Obama win as you were a week ago?

Mysticlaker, Coke 2.0 was focus grouped, was it not?

MysticLaker said...

@seretse

coke II was replacing something that was loved....

brooklynkevin said...

Nate, is there any polling data that can tell us a) what party the supposed undecideds are from, and b) how they voted in past elections?

My guess is that they are not undecided, but leaning, and leaning towards their traditional voting patterns.

That is why the Obama campaign's strategy of knocking and calling these people until the very last second is going to pay off. The campaign that has been most communicative, and the person who they talk to last, will have the best chance of getting the vote.

SHERWICK said...

I, for one, am far morecomfortable with Obama's position this week compared to a week ago.

slicknickshady said...

Obama is going to win. He is up in Ohio, Colorado, Nevada, and Virgina for crying out loud. He has been consistantly ahead in Florida. He is up big in Pennsylvania. Indiana, North Carolina, and Missouri are straight toss up.

shadowguidex said...

I'm glad this thing is almost over. It's really difficult to maintain this level of jitters day to day about something that's this important to me. I'm 97% sure Obama will win, but even if he loses, at least this daily news cycle crap will be over, and I can just sit back and watch some movies instead of reading 30 web pages every day, and reloading web pages every minute to catch every last post. This is taxing. lol.

Seretse said...

mysticlaker said...
@seretse

coke II was replacing something that was loved....


"Loved" is general and without reference. Wasn't Coke II suppose to *better*. Who cares if it's loved if it can be replaced with something more loved. Or Loved-er.

LAT said...

good morning y'all

where is Ant with the Rass numbers?

that new ad is a killer.

I am going out on a limb and saying that yes this is tightening but Tuesday--who knows why--are always terrible for Obama, or they have been for a couple of weeks now. This is not a 3 point race.

shadowguidex said...

I love how that internal McCain memo just happened to be leaked to the press today. I was wondering what they'd try and pull to cut off the Obama infomercial meme.

Real Joe said...

Ras had the race 49 O 47 M some days ago

InkStain said...

"Are you still as confident about an Obama win as you were a week ago?"

Yes. It's as much of a done deal as it can possibly be.

Jeremy said...

Diageo/Hotline:

Obama: 49% (-1)

McCain: 42% (no change)

http://www.nationaljournal.com/hotline/dailytracker/

MysticLaker said...

This is the first time I am thankful for the electoral college. It makes the nationally numbers so much less important.

Matt said...

So - 3-4 polls this morning all showing a lead of a dozen points or more for Obama in Pennsylvania. Can we finally bury the notion that this is still a toss-up state?

InkStain said...

If there were any doubt, look at the electoral map being fought over. New Hampshire is gone, Michigan is gone, Wisconsin is gone, Minnesota is gone. Georgia, Montana, Arizona are considered fringe in-play states.

The fact that we're even discussing Montana and Arizona while Michigan is gone should tell anyone all they need to know about who is going to win.

MysticLaker said...

RAS 50-47

InkStain said...

"So - 3-4 polls this morning all showing a lead of a dozen points or more for Obama in Pennsylvania. Can we finally bury the notion that this is still a toss-up state?"

No. Because to do so would be to admit the election is over.

Aussie said...

Davy said...

Don't try to school me, son, I was there. We're there again whether you recognize it or not.

Davy - well said.

People ARE emotional about this election. I can assure you that I have never witnessed such international interest in the outcome of this election.

The 60's were a time that the "masses" questioned the authority and integrity of the Government. They were right to do so.

The "masses" are doing so again and I believe that it is this vibe that feels so familiar to Davy.

PA John said...

"Are you still as confident about an Obama win as you were a week ago?""

Yes, because the state polls in VA,PA,CO,NV,OH and FL have either not moved or moved toward Obama.

Dave from San Antone said...

but slicknickshay, this is not your typical election, and I have seen 15 of them, and what you say is not necessarily correct because at about this time time when Reagan ran against Carter, Carter was ahead by about what Obama is over McCain. And Reagan won. Because of the composition of early voters, which is unprecedented (remember, back in those days, absentee ballots made up early voting and it was heavily Republican), this election could be heading in DIAMETRICALLY the EXACT OPPOSITE direction as you are suggesting, and in fact I think this is what is happening.
After all, these are "interesting" times.

kittles93 said...

It will be interesting to see what happens with the daily trackers tomorrow when Sunday rolls off the table. McCain had a huge Sunday.

Also, anyone check out the early voting site this morning? The voting yesterday in Florida and Ohio was crazy. So too in NC and GA.

The key here is how many people Obama is getting to vote that did not vote in 2004. Big question. Wish we had at least some clue.

http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html

Matt said...

sedi - I hear you but we keep getting these BS stories about internal polls that only show Obama up by two points. PA is not close - and McCain has wasted a ton of time and resources there.

dwbh said...

@inkstain:

If there were any doubt, look at the electoral map being fought over. New Hampshire is gone, Michigan is gone, Wisconsin is gone, Minnesota is gone. Georgia, Montana, Arizona are considered fringe in-play states.

The fact that we're even discussing Montana and Arizona while Michigan is gone should tell anyone all they need to know about who is going to win.


Exactly. The Kerry + IA + CO + NM firewall is all off the table at this point (as well as VA) and there's your Obama win. Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, Nevada are all gravy.

So essentailly, we're worrying about whether Obama will win with 286 electoral votes, or 300+ electoral votes.

LAT said...

the press conference from Arizona will eat up a lot of oxygen. They can beat the national numbers drum but the headline of McCain losing his home state will be powerful.

Besides Bible Spice is having an energy press conference, just when oil prices are so low oil producing countries are scrambling.

Dave from San Antone said...

I was part of the masses of the 60s. Only difference between the younger people today and the people then is that we did NOT vote then. It seems like the young people ARE voting now, If I had lived in as scary a world as they live in now, I would have, too!.
But I didn't think that voting was such a big deal.

Seretse said...

I'm happy that Obama did not drop below 50 in Rasmussen.

InkStain said...

"because at about this time time when Reagan ran against Carter, Carter was ahead by about what Obama is over McCain. "

This is factually incorrect. Carter's lead was much, much smaller.

And that's not even getting into the unique circumstances in that election.

dwbh said...

Also, remember at this time in 2004, Karl Rove was still talking about stealing blue states like New Jersey and Washington. I don't hear any crazy talk like that coming out of the McCain camp now.

Seretse said...

http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html

Wow almost a two point increase in Dem party ID of those who have voted in FL.

chopperjc said...

Voting is easier today than it ever has been. The "net" has changed that.

don't panic said...

"Are you still as confident about an Obama win as you were a week ago?"

a lot more, actually:
-only 6 days to go,
-state numbers are looking better than ever
-even more states are in play (GA, AZ, MT. ND)
-the alleged tightening of the national polls will ensure that complacency doesn't set in.

DB1 said...

Most black voters who are undecided don't want to tell a potentially white pollster that they're for Obama. Obama is going to get overwhelming black support.

However, contra the pattern of recent elections, my sense is that white undecideds are breaking for McCain. Unbelievably, the socialism dog-and-pony show from the Republicans seems to be working with the remaining undecideds, who are generally low-information, low-education voters who are slightly more religious than the national average and who therefore might be swayed by an economic fear argument just as they're turned off by Republican personality attacks.

Even more unbelievably, the Obama campaign has so far failed to comprehensively shoot back by pointing out that what the Republicans call "socialism" is in fact the Clinton recipe for economic expansion. And what the Republicans call "responsible" is Bush on steroids. It's the first time since August that the Obama campaign has seriously dropped the ball.

The remainder of the campaign depends on what Obama does TODAY and TOMORROW to eviscerate the socialism meme, and whether the McCain campaign is stupid enough to trot out Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers again.

I have been predicting 376 electoral votes for Obama, but at this point I have to say that to due the "socialism" lie's effect with soft Republicans and low information independents, NE-2 and IN go narrowly Republican and MO, FL and NC will come down to turnout operations.

mc9cain said...

With 1 point for cell phones and 2 points for Republican lean, Rasmussen should be at 52 O 45 M 1 Other and 2 Undecided. Give all Undecided to McCain -- just because Democrats are socialists and like to share the wealth :) --and it ends up 52 O 47 M and 1 Nader/Barr

Yea.

Simeon said...

@dwbh

"Also, remember at this time in 2004, Karl Rove was still talking about stealing blue states like New Jersey and Washington. I don't hear any crazy talk like that coming out of the McCain camp now."

Yeah, the McCain camp has a completely different kind of crazy talk! ;-) I think their hope of taking PA is about the same level as Bush taking NJ in '04 (or California in '00).

don't panic said...

"because at about this time time when Reagan ran against Carter, Carter was ahead by about what Obama is over McCain. "

he was only ahead by 1-2 points,
he just got killed in the only debate a day earlier,
he was the incumbent in a poor economy
the hostages crisis wouldn't go away (partly due to reagan's semi-treasonous beahviour)

Seretse said...

In Louisiana Almost twice as many democrats have voted than republicans and I know Obama has no chance of carrying the state.

So perhaps the early voting numbers really shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Yanks145 said...

Does anyone feel like Cartman from the episode of South Park where he couldnt stand waiting for the Nintendo Wii to come out, then had his friend (Butters) freeze him to bypass the time?! This is how I feel, I just want this to be over!

Still optimistic for Obama, hoping that this "tightening" is just that and nothing more.

DB1 said...

On the idea that tightening happens every election, No.

In each of the last five presidential elections, undecideds have broken for the Democrat -- Dukakis, both Clinton elections, Gore and Kerry. For Clinton, it padded his margin. For Dukakis and Kerry it brought them closer to the Republican and for Gore it flipped the popular vote total.

So far, the numbers indicate to me that this election will break that streak; enough white undecideds are breaking Republican.

kittles93 said...

Can anyone provide what percentage of registered voters are African American?

What could their max turnout percentage be?

PA John said...

"because at about this time time when Reagan ran against Carter, Carter was ahead by about what Obama is over McCain. "

The one and only debate was held on October 28, exactly one week before the election. It was, and remains, the most watched debate ever and provided what was truly a game changing moment. There is nothing to compare that to this year, unless Obama plans on sacrificing virgins live at 8:00 tonight.

Real Joe said...

new thread

slicknickshady said...

the point is obama is still just as much of a favorite as he was last week.

DB1 said...

If Rasmussen is indeed only at plus three this morning (I have to wait another ten minutes), that spells serious trouble in my book. It means the socialism meme from the McCain campaign is continuing to have an effect. And note that the state polls lag the national polls by two to four days.

Obama has to push back NOW on the socialism dog and pony show. Both himself, his co-campaigners and ALL the surrogates. It needs to be obliterated, and it's so easy to obliterate -- all you do is point out that what the Republicans call "socialism" is in fact Clintonomics.

Harper said...

The election is decided by the states, not the national polls. Keep looking at the state info. McCain has no chance with PA at 10+ Obama. VA, CO, OH, NV and NH are all in the tank for Obama. RCP is now showing Obama's floor at 311. That's without FL, NC, MO and IN, all of which BO leads.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

Nickname unavailable said...

I can't get the new Palin - McCain judgment commercial (if that's what it is) to load. The Obama site is too busy. Are there any alternate links to the ad on you Tube?

[sweari]

Jeremy said...

@mc9cain:

Ras has one of the highest Dem ID parity numbers out there, so there's no proof for a 2 points for Republican lean.

I wish ppl would stop peddling this Ras=GOP lean bullshit when his numbers show a tightening. We were perfectly cool with Ras when he was showing a consistent 8 point Obama lead. This childish turning on pollsters who dare deliver news we don't like is so childish.

LAT said...

so are we not going to go by Nate's tightening formula--2 2 2?

national polls will tighten. what matters is the states.s

slicknickshady said...

damn there are a lot of concern trolls out today.

dwbh said...

@simeon: Well, that's true. But at least this version of crazy talk is demonstrably crazy, what with all the double-digit polls. McCain taking PA is less likely than Bush taking NJ in '04 or CA in '00 IMO.

Come to think of it, McCain also keeps going to Iowa, for some batshit reason. So I stand corrected - the McCain camp has its share of crazy talk too. :)

Lee said...

Have been canvassing and calling for weeks and I think I have insight into the undecideds. Those that are truly undecided do not like either candidate -- that is why they cannot make up their minds and I think some of them will not be voting. They say things like "What a choice. I can't stand either one of them." Others do not think it is any of the callers business but rather than say they want to keep it private, they say they are undecided. Others have decided but are afraid to tell you because they think that their answer will be available to others like their employer etc.I wonder if a number of the African Americans are in this group (see the article on fear among AAs in Florida in todays NYT). BTW, thanks so much for this site. I am a first time poster but I study and read this everyday!

LAT said...

i find it funny that people read this site, appluad Nate and then totally ignore what he says. Until I see the crucial states (PA, CO, VA which else?) within 2 points by 2 pollsters I am not freaking out.

PorridgeGun said...

It seems a consenus opionion is forming around the same points I was making 2 days ago. I just checked Kos and they're annoyed with Obama's passiveness, lack of intensity and not hitting back harder against the ridiculous charges that have lobbed at him from the Republicans and the right-wing media.


5% drop-off over 3 days in the supposedly "stable" Ras poll is significant, as are the the other trackers, which I personally loathe. Fact is, these last few days have been the worst for Obama since the Republican convention, and it didn't have to be. I thought the Powell endorsement was perhaps a week too early, but was unavoidable, and since then Obama has been playing defense nationally.



BTW, I'm glad Obama is still at 50% and the state polls today look fairly stable, but Obama can't afford to have any more bad polling days in the national trackers. Eventually the state polls will catch up, and this election will be within stealing distance. I've been saying this for days, and nobody gave a shit.

slicknickshady said...

concern trolls are out in droves today. you are being overdramatic porridge.

Dave from San Antone said...

inkstain,
I'm talking about those 2% outliers, and if you read my post again, I was talking about exactly the same unique circumstances as I presume you are talking about. For sure, even though I have closely watched at least 15 presidential elections, this one is by far the most unique one, but it is also the first one after the COLLAPSE of the Trickle Down Theory which I honestly believe will radically (revolutionarily) change the precept of capitalisim so the greedy fat cats can NEVER again do what they did to get us into this mess (take all the money honest people invested in the stock market and run).
I think Obama is going to bring out the model of PRAGMATIC (no, not "liberal") capitalism, which is not "socialism", but capitalism for the masses. That is a safeguard we really need, and I think our country, the wealth of our people, and our infrastructure will benefit greatly from it. That's why he talks about how we are all responsible for working hard toward contributing something.

PorridgeGun said...

@slicknickshady


That's what people here were saying 2 days ago. I said the Obama camapaign had slumped and it was being reflected in most of the polls. I said it's inexplicable to me how McCain makes ANY gains at this point, given the in-fighting and sniping surrounding his camapaign, but apparently he's getting a bounce in the polls.


If the state polls remain stable from now untl election day, then the national trackers who are leaking results to Drudge are cooking their polls to help McCain. Given the current landscape, the PEW poll released yesterday showing Obama 15% ahead is whar I'd expect the other polls to look like.

Either PEW is gonna come out looking like the best pollster of all-time next week, or it's reputation will plummet to Zogby-like levels.

Juris said...

To illustrate my point the the uncommitted/undecideds are likely to be more critical in the closest states, take a look at today's (Wednesday morning's) state polls on RCP.

Florida (AP): O 45, M 43 (Undec: 12)
Florida (Quin.): O 47 M 45 (Undec: 8)

NC (AP): O 48, M 46 (Undec: 6)

If all the undecideds vote, and if they vote 2/3 for McCain, McCain wins. Of course this doesn't break out race, ethnicity.

But my point earlier was that doing the analysis at the national level only, as Nate has done, may not be the most instructive way to do it. One reason why states such as FL and NC remain close is that significant percentages of voters haven't declared their intention. So the analysis needs to focus on undecideds in those situations.

It would be nice to have one of those famous little calculators that Nate had produced in the past. This time allowing us to play "which way will the undecideds break"?

Elizabeth said...

@aussie:
“The 60's were a time that the "masses" questioned the authority and integrity of the Government. They were right to do so.

The "masses" are doing so again and I believe that it is this vibe that feels so familiar to Davy.”


(1) Prove to me that the “masses” in the US questioned authority in the 60s. And don’t spout general cultural memory nonsense about marching in the streets or “dropping out.” Show me statistically that the “mass” of people were questioning authority in the US, and were doing it more so than, say, after Watergate.

(2) If you think the “masses” are questioning authority right now, you are crazy.

I am a huge Obama supporter. But it’s very important, I think, to distinguish when people disapprove of a president, certain members of Congress, or even certain policies from such generalizing/romanticizing notions like the “masses questioning authority.” Americans are a very authoritative people, and I don’t really see that changing. Why don’t you ask Obama why he decided to start wearing that flag pin? Or why the Colin Powell endorsement mattered?

Davy said...

@hermance

"And, please, lay off the condescension. Just because I am younger than you are does not mean that I am 12 years old"

Fair enough.

And @ aussie

Shout out to my brother from down under.

Don't know if this will reach both of you (I'm new to blogging) but you can continue this discussion by e-mailing me at audacitymedia at yah00 dot com. I have more to say on the topic.

Davy said...

@ elizabeth

Wow.
__________________________________________

"(1) Prove to me that the “masses” in the US questioned authority in the 60s. And don’t spout general cultural memory nonsense about marching in the streets or “dropping out.” Show me statistically that the “mass” of people were questioning authority in the US, and were doing it more so than, say, after Watergate.

(2) If you think the “masses” are questioning authority right now, you are crazy.

"I am a huge Obama supporter. But it’s very important, I think, to distinguish when people disapprove of a president, certain members of Congress, or even certain policies from such generalizing/romanticizing notions like the “masses questioning authority.” Americans are a very authoritative people, and I don’t really see that changing. Why don’t you ask Obama why he decided to start wearing that flag pin? Or why the Colin Powell endorsement mattered?"

_______________________________________

Your post is filled with so many issues that I cannot take them all on in one attempt. I'll leave you with the most glaring question: "Why don't you ask Obama why he decided to start wearing that flag pin?"

Why is it that Obama is held to a double standard of being expected to show his patriotism by wearing a flag pin when McCain does NOT wear one? Plenty of video out there to support this. And since when does one's patriotism rely on wearing a flag pin matter? Are you wearing a flag pin now?

But in all fairness, I appreciate a fellow Obama supporter. As far as the 'masses questioning authority' are concerned, you'll have to e-mail me with everyone else at the above mentioned post.

rone said...

The only tightening we're seeing is that of Republican sphincters across the nation.
Nate: it seems to me that this article is at odds with the previous "black turnout surge" article.

ctyri said...

Great analysis, Nate. But like all analysis, it is subject to your assumptions. And I'm not sure I agree with them in this case.

Based purely on anecdotal evidence amongst extended family, I notice that a few very conservative folks are claiming to be undecided. They are the same folks who ask questions related to right-wing smears, like "I heard Obama... [eats babies, whatever]" or "I got an email saying...". They never quite admit they buy the smear, just asking about it. I sense they buy it but are looking for affirmation to express their support of it. They aren't getting it, so they sheepishly just "ponder" the issues raised.

If a pollster called them, I have no doubt they'd say undecided. I also have no doubt that they're voting McCain once they hit the booth.

I'm not sure what to call it. Not exactly the Bradley effect, more the "RNC smear effect" or the "closet dittohead effect" They're afraid to admit openly that they are buying into the smear campaign, because they're being told its a smear campaign intended to rile up idiots. And they don't want to admit to being an idiot. Until they hit the booth.

Someone else could maybe relay this point better that I am here in this small box. But I really feel there is something to this. And it isn't necessarily racial.

ctyri said...

lat: "i find it funny that people read this site, appluad Nate and then totally ignore what he says. Until I see the crucial states (PA, CO, VA which else?) within 2 points by 2 pollsters I am not freaking out."

Absolutely. My post above is only food for thought. Anyone freaking out over the closet McCainiacs in the undecided camp is missing the biggest point of all: Even if McCain gets a 4% bounce in every state, he still loses based on current data.

Kerry+IA+NM+any is still Game Over.

If you're freaking out, show how undecideds are going to pick off one of Kerry+IA+Nm and then every toss-up. The math isn't there unless there's something a lot bigger than undecideds in the mix.

tooshytostop said...

Thanks for the great info! Too Shy to Stop writer Lauren Bucci just wrote an article about websites that claim to help undecided votes. You can read the piece here.

Alyssa said...

Conscious or unconscious pretty crazy undecided voters still exist at all:
http://www.236.com/news/2008/10/31/wtf_are_undecideds_undecided_a_9904.php

egapre said...

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平平 said...

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