Earlier tonight, I suggested that there were in fact proportionately more undecideds among white voters than black voters, as the McCain campaign claimed today. This was based mostly on a recollection of numbers that I'd looked at several weeks ago when the fraction of undecideds was higher. However, this claim is more debatable now.
Below, among seven current polls which have released racial breakdowns, are the numbers of voters who did not declare their support for either major-party candidate. These totals include undecideds as well as third-party votes -- a group that I refer to as "uncommitted" voters.
Undecided + OtherPollster White Black HispanicA somewhat higher proportion of whites (and Latinos) are uncommitted, but the differences are not overwhelming. Suppose that McCain were to win 2/3 of white uncommiteds -- which I'd probably consider optimistic, although perhaps not since the uncommitted whites appear to be fairly downscale. Suppose also that Obama wins 90 percent of black uncommitteds and 60 percent of Latino uncommitteds. Suppose furthermore that the breakdown of white/black/Latino voters is 74/12/10, reflecting slight increases in the latter two groups from 2004's 77/11/8. Under these assumptions, McCain would pick up 3.9 points from uncommitteds and Obama 2.8 points, a net gain of 1.1 points for McCain:
===========================================
Gallup 6 5 8
Research 2K 8 2 4
Rasmussen 3 6 7
Battleground 7 5 7
Economist 10 5 11
Pew 12 9 --
Zogby 6 3 --
===========================================
AVERAGE 7.2 5.4 7.4
Uncommitted Allocation IGroup % of Electorate to McCain to ObamaAs I said, however, these assumptions are arguably optimistic for McCain. What if, instead, the distribution of the uncommitteds roughly resembles that of committed voters within each racial group, which means that whites go about 57/43 for McCain, blacks go 95/5 for Obama, and Hispanics go 65/35 for Obama? Under this set of assumptions, the undecideds split essentially evenly:
White 5.33 --> 3.55 1.78
Black 0.65 --> 0.06 0.58
Latino 0.74 --> 0.30 0.44
===================================================
Total 6.72 --> 3.91 2.81
Uncommitted Allocation IIGroup % of Electorate to McCain to ObamaAnother problem is that we haven't been distinguishing undecided voters from third-party voters. There is an argument that third-party voters should be treated as quasi-undecided voters, since third party support tends to collapse at the voting booth. Nevertheless, Bob Barr and Ralph Nader will probably pick up a collective 1-2 percent of the electorate, and third party support tends to be overwhelmingly concentrated among white voters.
White 5.33 --> 3.04 2.29
Black 0.65 --> 0.03 0.62
Latino 0.74 --> 0.26 0.48
===================================================
Total 6.72 --> 3.33 3.39
Four of the seven polls distinguished undecided voters from third-party voters. Looking only at those four polls:
"True" UndecidedsPollster White Black Hispanic
With the third-party votes removed, there is essentially no difference between the number of white and black undecideds, though Latinos perhaps are undecided at somewhat higher rates.
===========================================
Research 2K 2 2 1
Rasmussen 2 5 4
Battleground 4 3 4
Economist 6 3 11
===========================================
AVERAGE 3.5 3.3 5.0
Long story short ... given optimistic assumptions (McCain wins 2/3 of white undecideds, 100 percent of third-party support collapses), the undecided vote is worth a net of about a point for McCain. Given what I'd consider to be more neutral assumptions, there's no particular reason to think that the undecided vote favors him.
My guess is that the truth is somewhere in between and that this is worth, say, half a point for McCain. Even give him the full point if you like. This effect is probably smaller than that of the cellphone problem, from which there may be 1-2 points of cushion in Obama's direction. If on top of that the polls are being overly conservative with their likely voter modeling, the numbers are more likely to be underestimating Obama's standing than overestimating it.
10.29.2008
The Undecideds
by Nate Silver @ 12:31 AM...see also bradley effect, race, undecideds
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356 comments
Love the site, Nate!
something would have to be wrong with you to be undecided in this election
morons are undecided
Google and read David Sedaris' article in the New Yorker on the Undecideds. They have the easiest decision to make and they still can't make it.
Goobers.
Nate - you earlier posted about late undecideds breaking for the trailing candidate (or maybe I read that somewhere else???). Anyway - I'm interested in what that looks like. I would argue that black undecideds are likely to vote 3rd party or McCain - else they wouldn't be undecided at this point.
(I say this as an African American.)
QT
How in holy heck are these people still undecided? I wonder if they tell the pollsters that they're undecided because they just don't want to reveal who they're voting for. My dad does that. He never tells us who he's voting for, but the fact that he watches Brit Hume religiously gives me a pretty good idea of the way the wind is blowing when it comes to him.
The choice is easy. Either you are a silly republican (then your choice is easy and you pick Obama) or you are a sane individual like the rest of us (in which case you pick Obama). What is to decide?
holyshite, the word verification is deadwo
what the hay?
I don't know, while canvassing for Obama, I've spoken to a fair number of undecided voters up in New Hampshire who are determined to have all the information. They're some of the most reasonable, intelligent, well-informed people I've talked to about the election. And many of them don't plan to decide until November 4.
Nate, when do you sleep?
You hear so much about the white vote and the black vote but I think the Latino vote has been somewhat neglected this year, especially since their numbers are greater than blacks.
Great analysis. I wonder what percentage of undecideds just don't vote at all. I really can't imagine what information they will receive between now and Nov 4th that will tip the scales to one candidate or the other.
Hey, the McPailin adverts are really annoying and kind of make your webpage a bit...cheaper than it ought to be.
Aren't there other outfits that might advertise on your page?!?!
I was vounteering at county Dem HQ last week (not Obama, but the party needs to have work done too - and since Obama will carry Oregon easily I am also concerned about our legislature) when a man walked in seeking information. He said he and his wife were looking for all the information they could get before making up their minds, and he asked some quite pertinent questions.
Not all undecideds are barely alive dolts.
With Cynthia McKinney at the top of the Green party ticket this year, and more of an emphasis on social justice in addition to environmental issues, I'm not sure your assumption that white voters will continue to go more for 3rd party candidates than black voters will hold true.
My personal hunch is that it is among the Undecided pool that some of the wavering racist vote may be hiding. I figure a good chunk of Undecideds are those who are on the fence based on their own prejudices. It's the people who don't necessarily like McCain but are leery of Obama because of his race, and are waiting for something to happen to justify a vote against him. If that something never materializes, I think many may just hold their nose and vote for their economic interests.
Thanks for that analysis Nate.
I wonder also if there might be some shift of the undecideds away from Republicans (your Elephant effect) when they get to that voting booth and make their decision to punish the Republican party for the Bush presidency. Or if their concerns about Obama end up overriding their anger with Bush.
Like QT, I find it terribly unlikely that undecided black voters will break hugely for Obama. If anything, I would suspect they will be very disproportionately for McCain as compared to black voters as a whole, else why would they be undecided when enthusiasm for Obama is so very high among black voters. Picking a number fresh out of my you know what, I'd guess white undecideds break 60-66% for McCain and black voters 50-50. I buy the notion that undecideds are likely to break for McCain.
FWIW I'm a big Obama supporter.
Mike the racists shouldn't still be undecided. The KKK endorsed Obama remember?
Zogby
M44.4
O49.1
Little Change
In order for this to be a "transformation" election Obama has to win BIG, like Reagan. For major structural changes he needs a mandate not just a victory.
The ONLY way this will happen is if YOUTHS, AA's AND LATINOS all come out in record numbers. I'd say the AA's are a shoo in to do that, the Latinos fairly likely and the Youth - as always - will prove to be all talk. I've NEVER seen young people vote their interest - EVER - I will eat my hat and both gloves if I'm wrong. Just to hedge my bets I'm marinating my hat etal in a delicious honey garlic sauce.
Nate, I find your math on the "undecided" split to be helpful. I've been worried about it.
49.1 O
44.4 m
Zogby
How could you be undecided at this point anyways!? It's obvious that one candidate is an american war hero and the other is a socialist arabic muslim!
OMG I kid. But seriously, how could you be undecided at this point with all this press coverage, 3 debates (4 w/ the VP debate included), and a lengthy historical primary for the Dems. If you have an undecided friend just tell them this, "OK, you're undecided, well if you're happy with the way the current republican is doing in the white house than vote for McCain." If they respond by telling you he's a maverick, ask them how? Ask them if it's the way thats McSame has carried out his campaign (sleazy attack ads and fear mongering w/ labels such as terrorist and socialist!?) Ask them if it's the way McCain wants to make the Bush Tax cuts permanent!!! (even though he voted against them in '00!!)... It's simple here, if we want to save our country and turn things around and restore our standing with the rest of the world there is only one choice. OBAMA/BIDEN
Released: October 29, 2008
Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll: Obama 49.1%, McCain 44.4%
A week out, the race remains static
UTICA, New York - The race for President of the United States remained essentially frozen in time yesterday, with very little movement just a week to go before Election Day, the latest Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby daily tracking telephone poll shows.
Democrat Barack Obama gained 0.1 points, while Republican John McCain dropped 0.2 points in the latest three-day rolling average tracking poll. The undecided voters increased to 6.5%, up 0.2 points from yesterday.
McCain wins 87% of the Republican support, and Obama 84% of the Democratic support, and each candidate wins 11% of the opposing party's support, the survey shows. Obama continues to lead among independent voters - his advantage now stands at 16 points, 51% to 35%.
The three-day rolling tracking poll included 1,203 likely voters - about 400 interviews per 24-hour polling period (each polling period begins and ends at 5 p.m. daily) - and was conducted Oct. 26-28, 2008. It carries a margin of error of +/- 2.9 percentage points. Interviews were conducted using live telephone interviewers in Zogby's in-house call center in Upstate New York.
wf exesse
According to a new KAET/ASU poll, McCain leads Obama by only 2 points (46-44) in McCain's home state of Arizona!!!
http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/election08/articles/2008/10/28/20081028prezpoll1028ONL.html
Zogby!
Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll: Obama 49.1%, McCain 44.4%
A week out, the race remains static
UTICA, New York - The race for President of the United States remained essentially frozen in time yesterday, with very little movement just a week to go before Election Day, the latest Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby daily tracking telephone poll shows.
Data from this poll is available here
Democrat Barack Obama gained 0.1 points, while Republican John McCain dropped 0.2 points in the latest three-day rolling average tracking poll. The undecided voters increased to 6.5%, up 0.2 points from yesterday.
I disagree. The African Americans who are undecided are black Republicans or people not comfortable telling voters their positions. My guess is the black Republicans are vanishingly small who haven't already decided. The real issue are those who are afraid to say whom they plan to vote. This has been much discussed at Daily Kos. On a personal note, as an African American, I know there is a certain concern in the community of which I have contact (lower middle class) with answering polls. I know this seems odd, but it's not given concerns over what people will do with data about us. You may consider this paranoia, but the concern is that this will somehow be used to hurt the black vote.
A friend 55 year old single woman finally sent her ballot in today. She was undecided and afraid to vote against the republicans. Why? Who knows but she finally got off the fence and voted for Obama. These people are out there and still comprise 7%
What state?
Florida
I tend to hate undecideds more than actual FReepers but there could be 'innocent' reasons.
One example would be someone who is Pro-Life, but has lost their health insurance. Or job. Or nestegg.
I think a lot of undecided blacks are probably republicans who are torn between their party and their desire to tear down racial boundaries. I do not think they will all choose to tear down racial boundaries, but I bet a lot of them eventually will. Maybe 60/40 for Obama, I agree with others and think 90/10 is too high
Chopper,
those look like the national numbers.
Oh, that's where your friend is from. sorry.
"which state?" questions are usually about pools, so that's what I looked for.
Zogy, Yes I thought you meant the woman sorry
I can't decide whether to agree with Nate's analysis on this or not.
watch out for Stu.
V=bonerstu
So the national trackers are tightening somewhat, and the state polls are not. We have a McCain pollster saying the race is essentially tied but we see no evidence of that.
McCain spends half his time in PA, he claims he has a good chance to win the state and yet he's behind by 8-12 points? What the hell is going on in this election?
Is the McCain camp making shit up to try and convince people this race is really close when it is not? Or does he really believe this election is close?
I'm confused.
Nate, how does this analysis look when you apply it polls from the most relevant state polls: PA, VA, IN, OH, FL, MO, NV? If you can do it, is there any way to factor Cubans in Florida from the Hispanic column? Also, do the polls show any party ID for the true undecideds?
Yesterday McCain had 44.7 in Zogby, today he gets 44.4 and yet Zogby says he dropped 0.2 points! Also Obama gained 0.1 and the net difference as reflected in the undecideds is 0.2!
I guess rounding would account for this, but all the math suggests that McCain actually dropped 0.3.
This is a mountains out of molehills post, no doubt ;)
Tomorrow is a big day. Comercial, Bill and Obama in Orlando, the close starts. 5-8 points up and a ton of cash. I doubt we are going to see a comeback.
Is the McCain camp making shit up
Yes.
what choice do they have? You don't tell the world that they're going to lose. The concession speach is next Tuesday.
wv: regan. raising him from the dead won't help.
Nate: thank you! There's another factor that probably further mitigates the impact of how the undecideds break: as even the McCain guy noted, undecideds are less likely to vote than the decideds at this point.
So the marginal effect of those undecideds on the ultimate vote division will be somewhat smaller than you indicate under either of your calculations.
OTOH -- if you were to look at the percent undecided in selected "close" battleground states, the effect of the undecideds could be a lot greater, enough, say, in FL or OH to give McCain a more than Bush-Gore margin.
reelgeist,
I just read your post, and I agree with your sentiments. Particularly regarding the reluctance about discussing that kind of information for fear or some sort of retribution. I actually do not think this is completely unfounded paranoia and I bet there may be a similar reluctance among hispanic voters.
Claiming to be a "sincerely" undecided voter this late into the game is the same as a decent looking fella stating casually -- at a bar -- right after last call that he's yet to decided which female to leave the bar with.
Truth is: he is well aware of those he's so hoping to not leave the bar with, he's just mad at himself knowing that's exactly what's going to happen since he lacks the "proper game" to have made his move a lot sooner ... LOL!
All you need to do is ask an undecided voter how they feel to have Palin having access to the nuke codes should McCain croak. Now there's a reason to build that bomb shelter again. I would be so embarassed to say that she would be the president, AUGH! T-minus 6 days and counting.
just the difference in the election night 'parties' says it all, no ?
Obama with a HUGE piublic rally in Chi-town
McCain with a small semi-private televised gathering on a lawn outside a hotel in AZ for his concession speech
probably @ 8 [or maybe 9] PM ET after FL & OH polls close...
Nate,
Even if your analysis is wrong, and I don;t think you are, this is by far the most entertaining poll site out there.
Thank you.
Oops! Typo
... yet to *decide* which ...
Think about it...
85% wrong track and one of the most hated President's in history.
But still a flawed candidate with a third grader for a running mate keeps it close!
And only a week ago Obama looked like the master of the Universe.
The steady drip, drip, drip of wild stories and allegations and spreading of doubt is all the other side has. To be in power for no other reason than power itself.
Obama's budget? Well, a black man trying to be President needs 100's of millions to counter that basic handicap in America.
And for all his ads and all his money, he, and the Dems, don't have their very own propaganda arm.
FOX is the 24 hour Republican commercial for any candidate they put up. The level of there bile and vile was evidenced in Hannity's Obama "bio". So outrageous when you stop and think.
So, Obama's 1/2 hour tomorrow looks paltry by comparison to an entire network devoted to Republican ideology, policies and candidates.
May justice prevail.
dcm,
I would be shocked if he conceeded before 10pm EST. I mean the writing will be on the wall, but the polls will still be open on the West coast and there are down ticket people that would be (slightly) hurt.
I have to hand it to Republicans, they are a clever bunch. They called Obama every name in the book to try and make something stick and they found their attack. Obama is a :
"Wealth re-distribution Socialist"
They are so f#@king good they never cease to amaze me. Of course Obama isn't any of those things, but it doesn't matter. McCain would win this race if it wasn't for the last eight years of Bush.
McCain will lose the election handily, but its not from lack of effort. I have a feeling the country is gonna like the Socialist Obama policies, even if the GOP doesn't.
"Matt W said...
dcm,
I would be shocked if he conceeded before 10pm EST. I mean the writing will be on the wall, but the polls will still be open on the West coast and there are down ticket people that would be (slightly) hurt."
Make that 11pm EST. That's when CA polls close.
MATT
true, but John will want to go to bed early & catch up on his sleep - or he will be cranky for the morning shows... ;-)
Thanks for trying to reassure us that Obama's lead is not an illusion and that we will not all wake up to the nightmare on Wednesday of a McCain presidency. The painful memory of 2000 is still too vivid, however, and I doubt that I will get much sleep for the next week.
Republican turnout seems to be low in early voting so far.
NV, IA, NC, and LA are around 29% Republican early voters. These are all states that went for Bush in 2004.
If petekent's "hidden voters" exist, they are not voting early in these states.
CO and FL seem to be at levels more proportionate with the D/R splits.
It all could change, of course, but so far that base isn't turning out.
@green
agree:
lies and doubts, fox, needed $100M
disagree:
It's not close, Obama's position hasn't changed in the past week, and we don't want our own propaganda arm.
If people had any smarts left in them they should know how dangerous a McCain/Palin presidency would be. More war, more tax cuts for the wealthy, more of the same. Does anyone here expect that "October Surprise" thingy or does it really matter at this stage in the game? Only 3 days of October left including today. I'm simply thinking that because things are so bad off here in America, that will tend to help Obama in the election.
It is interesting that the topline national number for Obama is not only stable (just above majority), but has a small standard deviation, whereas McCain's number varies wildly from pollster to pollster. What this means is that the variance in likely voter models isn't appreciably changing the proportions voting for Obama, which is completely counter intuitive unless Obama is drawing much broader and firmer support than McCain is -- enough so that changes in LV models only affect McCain and undecided numbers.
That is that Obama is simply getting 50.5% (RCPs number) or very close of all voters regardless of political/age/racial group. McCain on the other hand, has a relatively weak hold on 50% of undecideds (say 3-4% of all voters) -- though, that being said, when they are pushed they choose McCain.
What interests me is how the remainder of the undecideds will vote -- there are clearly two classes of undecideds -- the ones who get pushed into answering who they think they will vote for, and the ones who don't...
Regarding the youth vote, I'm a 37-year old fulltime graduate student; most of my classmates and certainly most of the undergrads are under 25. I can't comment about the atmosphere at other colleges, but here at Appalachian State in Boone, NC there is an early voting station in the student union and they seem to stay busy all day, every day they're open. There are campaign signs everywhere, and students discussing the election, our military situation, President Bush, etc. I was an undergraduate during the 1992 and 1996 elections, and I have to say the feelings on campus this time around are decidedly more intense. The youth vote this year is definitely not just talk!
hate Zogby - but his last 3 polls do show a stable race which is great news for Obama in the last week of the campaign
POLLSTER map & #'s are sure sweet
272 solid Obama = in the bank minimum
39 lean Obama = on the counter, ready to deposit
----- subtotal = 311 EVs
85 tossups = looking likely for Obama if trends continue
----- subtotal = 348-395 EVs [likely]
19 lean McCain = add to Obama if the tsunami sweeps across the nation
===== TOTAL = 414 EVs [maximum]
123 solid RED
my word is 'boyratio'
sounds like a dating term...
Nate,
Interesting and thoughtful analysis...and responsive to the visitors' inquiries.
Thanks.
Now get some sleep.
There is a local republican radio station across the street from where I work (Fargo, ND). They use "The Flag" as part of their name. Funny how Republicans always use "The Flag" to show how American they are yet they are the ones doing a great job of destroying what "The Flag" stands for in this Country. Anyway, they have a digital ticker-tape style electronic billboard, similar to what you see in Times Square in New York City to show the news. I had better see "Barack Obama Wins the Presidency" on that thing on the morning of Nov. 5th or I'll send 'em a "courteous" e-mail and point that out to them! Obama has worked so hard and done all the right things in his campaign, he DESERVES to be this country's next president!
http://photos-155.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v352/114/40/1164720155/n1164720155_30183923_1484.jpg
Look at the kind of hatred we are up against.. (Picture of girl hanging Obama doll.)
AMERICA
I sure hope you do get to see that message scrolling in a nice loop all day on 11/5
Can't wait until November 4/5 when many of these polls' assumptions get busted.
nate=super smart
is nevada now trending light blue? this old fellow has no path to victory... unless the diebold machines are rigged
Just because somebody is looking for every piece of information before they make their choice doesn't mean that they aren't dolts or stupid.
If somebody walked into a library and asked for everything written about evolution so that they could make up their minds.... it'd be pretty hard to call them intelligent.
NV is light blue trending toward solid BLUE
almost as good a margin as CO & NM now [and OH too]
richard, i probably go to a school that is generally apathetic when it comes to politics. it seems though most people here are voting, and voting for Obama. New York's capital region is not exactly up for grabs, but at least my friends from Ohio, North Carolina, and Colorado have sent in their absentee ballots for Obama.
I am filling in my absentee ballot right now, mail it in the morning
even though late this afternoon, Gov Crist ordered all election polls to remain open 12 hours every day through Sunday...
4 of the 5 polls in Volusdia County closed anyway @ 4 PM tonight & disregarded his direct order
not sure it can be enforced, but it is a disgrace here in FL [again] on how they are allowing voter suppression through multi-hour waits in line & bad equipment
yet over 2 million have persevered & voted early
word is 'nocat' lol
George Stephanopolos was just on Nightline and stated that according to ABC News polling what he called "true undecideds" are actually at 2% right now and that they "probably won't vote."
What McCain is aiming for he said were "persuadables," i.e. those voters who have stated a preference but could change their minds.
McCain is especially targeting older conservative Democratic women who might favor Obama for economic reasons, but would be swayed to McCain for "cultural" reasons -- abortion, "values", race, etc.
In short, he's counting on the racist, bible-thumping horde to drop Obama and their own economic self-interest, in an orgy of N----r hate.
Doesn't sound like much of a strategy, but it might be all he's got. Attack Obama on culture-war issues, and hot button topics like code-word racism and peel off enough frightened voters to tip a few key states like Pennsylvania and Virginia, Florida and Ohio. If McCain could win all four, and not lose Virginia or North Carolina or Missouri in the process, he could still win.
That's rather a tall order though.
DCM in FL said...
"I am filling in my absentee ballot right now, mail it in the morning
even though late this afternoon, Gov Crist ordered all election polls to remain open 12 hours every day through Sunday...
4 of the 5 polls in Volusdia County closed anyway @ 4 PM tonight & disregarded his direct order
not sure it can be enforced, but it is a disgrace here in FL [again] on how they are allowing voter suppression through multi-hour waits in line & bad equipment
yet over 2 million have persevered & voted early
word is 'nocat' lol"
Sounds like Crist can read the writing on the wall. Even if the voter suppression works in FL, what's the odds of it working in enough states to make a difference in the end? Ohio has a democrat in charge, so she's fighting against the tactics and McCain needs Ohio as well as Florida. And I'd hate to be one of the people that gets investigated under an Obama administration regarding efforts to subvert the democratic process and supress voting.
Cugel said...
"George Stephanopolos was just on Nightline and stated that according to ABC News polling what he called "true undecideds" are actually at 2% right now and that they "probably won't vote."
What McCain is aiming for he said were "persuadables," i.e. those voters who have stated a preference but could change their minds.
McCain is especially targeting older conservative Democratic women who might favor Obama for economic reasons, but would be swayed to McCain for "cultural" reasons -- abortion, "values", race, etc.
In short, he's counting on the racist, bible-thumping horde to drop Obama and their own economic self-interest, in an orgy of N----r hate.
Doesn't sound like much of a strategy, but it might be all he's got. Attack Obama on culture-war issues, and hot button topics like code-word racism and peel off enough frightened voters to tip a few key states like Pennsylvania and Virginia, Florida and Ohio. If McCain could win all four, and not lose Virginia or North Carolina or Missouri in the process, he could still win.
That's rather a tall order though."
McCain has no choice but to try to go for Obama's soft support, he's got 53% support in PA which means that even if McCain claimed every last undecided out there he still loses by 5-6. He has to take support away from Obama and I just don't see how he could possibly make up that much ground this late in the game with no organization, no message and no money.
Nate, you got scooped!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/27/obama-wins-newspaper-declares/
Nate:
I don't think you can really compare polls "undecideds" margins or average them, because the results differ from poll to poll in part depending on how hard the pollster PUSHES the undecideds.
This is rather different from a pollster asking which of two candidates you PREFER.
That question leaves open the issue of COMMITMENT. "Which girl do you prefer, Paris Hilton or Jessica Alba?" "Well, I would actually prefer my own girlfriend, but just between Jessica and Paris, I prefer Jessica." See? Open, no commitment.
Comparing Apples and Oranges.
I agree to be undecided in this race at this late date makes you something special. Probably given the history of racial voting that means a McCain supporter. Combined with the historically successful attempts to suppress voting and the push to do so this year (see Ohio, today's piece in NYT about Florida, etc)I wonder if McCain still has a serious chance. What do others think?
Anyone have any thoughts on the strategical soundness of the Obama infomercial tomorrow? My thoughts are that this buy was sound and looks like it may turn out to be important. Besides the whole visual, people like Barack on TV thing Nate's talked about before, it was Barack's chance to counter and crush any final attack made by McCain. It just so turns out that the final attack was a little McCarthyism. This infomercial will probably focus on completely skewering that line of attack giving Obama the last word going into election day.
bubba said: morons are undecided
Frightened people are undecided.
McCain has some spookiness to him, though maybe not so much to folks inside the country. I find what we've seen of Palin amazing scary in her shallowness and hypocracy (like Bush distilled free of any pretense).
Obama is going to be unnerving to many folks. The 'new' often is, and let's face it, on race and his one parent being decidedly non-Christian (and foreign citizen to boot) he is. This has only been further heavily exagerated.
Biden? Well he's just kinda goofy. Not particularly incompetent, just say off-the-wall stuff. Standard Vice President material there. *shrug* But the other 3 have a lot more 'negatives'.
So yeah, I can totally see someone torn between the fears. Especially if they are considering switching from their standard Dem/Rep orientation.
Verification: bette, as in "You bette cha!" :)
Nate,
The following is based on just the R2K (dailykos) internals:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/28/1790/7037/799/645014
Obama's support among 30-44 year olds shows some wild swings.
Do you have enough internals to explain what is going on?
Thanks!
Drew--
In the debates, Obama seemed to have a strategy of appearing calm and presidential, letting viewers know it's okay to vote for him. I would guess this is the same idea.
Omama is also looking for ways to dominate the news cycles in the final days of the campaign. With this infomercial, he will undoubtedly control the news cycle the day of, the day after, and possible the 2nd day after. If he controls the news cycle for 2 days after, that leaves McCain with just one "business" day left and Obama can easily run out the clock.
McCain will has the same problem winning via voter suppression that he had with winning via a legit surge of support--he needs to pull it off in seven states simultaneously.
>> Anyone have any thoughts on the strategical soundness of the Obama infomercial tomorrow?
It worked for the last guy that had enough money to do it, Ross Perot.
No seriously, that guy was crazier than a jay-bird on a hen house roof in a hail storm :^), fighting against two heavily entrenched parties, pulling out of and then back into the race, and he still managed to pull %19 of the popular vote! Truely stunning.
Good point peixe. I never even considered the running out the clock angle. Why is this campaign so good?
Found this over at Slate in an article about the whole "Socialist Wealth Redistribution" smear:
"We grudge no man a fortune in civil life if it is honorably obtained and well used. It is not even enough that it should have been gained without doing damage to the community. We should permit it to be gained only so long as the gaining represents benefit to the community. … The really big fortune, the swollen fortune, by the mere fact of its size, acquires qualities which differentiate it in kind as well as in degree from what is possessed by men of relatively small means. Therefore, I believe in a graduated income tax on big fortunes, and … a graduated inheritance tax on big fortunes, properly safeguarded against evasion, and increasing rapidly in amount with the size of the estate."
Pretty radical stuff from none other than Teddy Roosevelt- one of McCain's personal heroes. And completely reasonable and sensible IMHO.
P.S.- I can't stand to look over at the Utah polls; it's just embarrassing.
At the top of the page is reads INVEST in VICTORY.
WELL...
I would much rather INVEST in MCCAIN'S DENTIST'S battle with his teeth.
YES
YES I know....
I sort of think his must have left his grill with the VC an extra ten years as well.
PeixeGato said...
"Omama is also looking for ways to dominate the news cycles in the final days of the campaign. With this infomercial, he will undoubtedly control the news cycle the day of, the day after, and possible the 2nd day after. If he controls the news cycle for 2 days after, that leaves McCain with just one "business" day left and Obama can easily run out the clock."
Yes, but I'll make you this prediction. Obama does well on tv and obviously hires some very smart people to advise him on such issues. His half hour ad will likely serve him well and get his numbers up for the weekend, but as he polls poorly on the weekend for whatever reason, his numbers will show to be dropping on monday morning and the pundits and concern trolls will be spinning the McCain surge for all it is worth.
The media outlets want a close race to keep folks glued to the tube as long as possible. If they are smart, indications of a decisive win such as VA, OH, FL, etc they should shift their focus to how big of a win will it be. I highly doubt we'll see too many close races that matter, the close ones will almost certainly be gravy, so the question becomes does Obama hit mandate level election. The desire to keep viewers tuned in is where the pundits come in.
The concern trolls...well, they are just concern trolls and cannot be expected to behave any differently.
With this infomercial, he will undoubtedly control the news cycle
I don't know about that--the smear squad will slap together a response pretty quickly. But he will likely succeed in making the next two days all about him--which I think is a good thing. McCain needs to go positive now.
I also have trouble getting inside the heads of "undecided voters". I can't imagine how anyone could be undecided at this point. The only scenario I could understand is someone who's ideologically torn (i.e., they're pro-life but also believe in universal health care.) In a case like that, though, their vote would probably not be decided by any final pitches the candidates might make, but simply by the result of their internal wrestling.
As for undecided voters who don't fall into that category -- again, I just don't get it. I'd have to think maybe they just don't care too much about the election and haven't given it a lot of thought (and thus might be unlikely to vote at all) -- but I guess they must be passing the "likely voter" screens, so who knows? After this seemingly endless campaign, it's hard to believe someone wouldn't have all the information they need to make their decision.
Obama is going to come out like the leader he is, showing he knows the issues and has practical plans to deal with them. While McCain's campaign is looking like a circus. That's the image voters will have going into the booth on Tuesday, if they haven't voted already.
tylerxdurden said...
">> Anyone have any thoughts on the strategical soundness of the Obama infomercial tomorrow?
It worked for the last guy that had enough money to do it, Ross Perot.
No seriously, that guy was crazier than a jay-bird on a hen house roof in a hail storm :^), fighting against two heavily entrenched parties, pulling out of and then back into the race, and he still managed to pull %19 of the popular vote! Truely stunning."
I've long has a thought about Perot I wanted to share. It occured to me while watching him campaign and hearing about his business successes what he truly was. Think about this. Bald, big ears, loves profits. The guy was a complete Ferengi
One thing I really have to wonder about undecideds is how many actually show up at the polls. I'm sure there are some, but if you're that ambivalent between the two candidates, why are you taking the time out of your day to go vote?
Nate cited Edlin et al ("Voting as a Rational Choice") in an earlier post, and it suggests that a voter externalizes the benefits of a particular candidate; this multiplied benefit offsets the trivially small chance of changing the outcome, thereby making the choice to vote fit more easily within a rational choice framework.
However, if you carry this to the logical conclusion, it would only make sense that the more undecided the voter, the less difference in benefit they will see between the two candidates; the net benefit of voting for one candidate over the other decreases, thereby reducing the chances that any given undecided voter will bother to show up. (In contrast, highly partisan voters will perceive a MASSIVE difference in the benefits of the two candidates, making turnout much higher among these voters.)
Ultimately, this means that an ever-shrinking percentage of truly undecided voters will actually bother voting. Sam Wang makes the argument that "undecided" voters aren't necessarily undecided, though.
Thoughts?
(Here's my Obama-themed VOTE poster -- print out some copies and spread them around!)
@ Green (12:18)
You gotta admit, CNN and MSNBC are not inpartial. While the dribble they spew is not nearly as hateful as Fox, they certainly paint a better picture for the Dems.
Sometimes I go over to Fox to 1)see what the other side is saying, ande 2) to get away from the trash I'm seing on CNN/MSNBC.
Let's face it. We like to see news that we agree with, and if you're a GOP, you go to Fox, Dems go to CNN or MSNBC (i.e. MSM).
can you say realignment?, do you know what's far more embarrassing? Electing Mitt Romney governor, shame, shame, shame.
>> I've long has a thought about Perot I wanted to share. It occured to me while watching him campaign and hearing about his business successes what he truly was. Think about this. Bald, big ears, loves profits. The guy was a complete Ferengi
Perhaps, in a lot of ways he was crazy like a fox. All those pretty, say-nothing charts sure drew in the rubes. But what does that make Steve Jobs, the guy that managed to milk Perot of $400 million (via investing in NeXT)? :)
Drew,
It's good because he's doing the right things. He beat the best campaign machine in the primary. He forced McCain to make errors.
We know it's good because he's half black, and if he didn't make the right decision 99.99% of the time, he'd be toast.
I'm not saying this as a racist, but the truth is that Obama doesn't have the luxury to make mistakes.
george in florida, i kind of can't stand either. i've really enjoyed the ABC coverage that I've watched online and the PBS coverage. I may find Fox repulsive, but CNN and MSNBC aren't much better.
It seems that all of these models greatly underestimate Barack's turnout advantage. Here are some numbers:
Eligible voters in 2008: 213,000,000
Overall turnout in 2004: 60.1%
Total votes in 2004: 123,535,883
source: http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2004G.html
Suppose it's a dead heat in voter preference between M and O. The R's usually have a higher turnout. Suppose they hit 65%, which would be surprising, given the generally tepid support for M in his party. The D's are likely to hit 75% in this year of Obamamania. That's an 11 million vote and a 7 percentage point O victory even in a true dead heat of voter preference, just through the turnout factor. Given that O in fact has at least a 5% advantage going in, his turnout advantage will make it significantly bigger. Gonna be a blowout.
Troy said...
"Drew,
It's good because he's doing the right things. He beat the best campaign machine in the primary. He forced McCain to make errors.
We know it's good because he's half black, and if he didn't make the right decision 99.99% of the time, he'd be toast.
I'm not saying this as a racist, but the truth is that Obama doesn't have the luxury to make mistakes."
He not only has to be near perfect, he has to be whiter than McCain and as with Troy I'm not trying to be racist. But can you imagine if he "gave a shout out" or raised the roof to a rap song on SNL? Look at the way the GOP went after Powell when they were pretty sure he was going to announce his endorsement for Obama. They found every clip they could to make him look black in an effort to say it would be race alone motivating him. Had Obama done any of these things that are part of that steriotype, he'd have been damaged by it, but a white politican can do it and come off as being "hip".
CNN has a liberal bias?!
Now, that's funny.
If you think CNN is pro-democrat, then you are betraying how far right you have been driven.
Only people so far to the right that they've lost sight of the middle think CNN is on the other side of it.
Do you think that perhaps he should've done this a couple of days later, say on Thursday, in order to absolutely minimize the chance of a Bin Laden tape coming after his infomercial?
My fear (well, ONE of my fears) is that the extreme elements in the Republican party will whip up such hate among the core base for Obama that they will seek to sabotage anything he proposes as President on general principles. The Clintons received more than their share of it during their tenure (and they didn't help matters by making themselves bigger targets than necessary). Is there any way to get the dittoheads and Christian evangelicals to see reason? Are they capable of defending those causes which they hold dear and yet do so within the boundaries of respect for the common good? Can we reach out to them and ask for their help in solving our country's tremendous problems? Will we pull back anything other than a bloody stump if we do? We gave them our trust once: right after 9/11. They responded by stabbing us in the back in a quest for more Congressional seats in the 2002 election. Will a defeat on Tuesday get through to them that they need to change? Or will we be forced to treat them as an obstacle on America's path back into the light?
Drew said...
"Do you think that perhaps he should've done this a couple of days later, say on Thursday, in order to absolutely minimize the chance of a Bin Laden tape coming after his infomercial?"
Bin Laden for all his many faults isn't an idiot. He'd have been much better served releasing a tape when the election was much closer in order for it to have a greater impact. It is currently debatable if such a tape would have an impact just a few days before the election, particularly with the early vote numbers being so high.
My guess would be that either he's dead or he likes the current outcome. Neither scenario is likely to harm Obama. Should he issue a tape, he'd have to be amazingly careful in crafting it's message because if he supports Obama, they just point to his support of Kerry 4 years ago when it was obvious he wanted more of Bush's bad war management. If he endorses McCain, most likely Obama remains silent and lets McCain try to argue his way out of it just as was done on the recent revelation that the overall consensus is that islamic fundamentalists want us to remain stretched out in a prolonged occupation of Iraq that eats into our manpower, money and military might and flexibility.
Great analysis.
I think that Obama is being under-sampled in the polling because of:
1. cellphone effect.
2. reverse bradley effect.
3. not accounting for huge increase in black vote.
4. not properly accounting for new voter registrations.
5. Obama's big GOTV advantage.
6. huge enthusiasm advantage.
And becauseMcCain/Palin want to get rid of medicare and social security. (they are against socialism, right?)
I figure if voters connect the word "socialism" to Medicare & Social Security then the final GOP smear can be laid to rest. I think it's a brilliant point. I heard Gov. Rendell make it on Rachel Maddow today. To me it just kills any power that "socialist" smear has.
Obama is a product of his generation and living outside the nastiest of the racism influence. Because nasty coming towards you has a way of getting down in your bones and it ends up shaping how you act outward. Jesse Jackson is a great example of that. He was never going to be President, the nasty that went into him just seeps out of him and just scares too many 'white folk'.
Franlky it should.
But look at Colin Powell, he managed to escape a lot of the nasty by enlisting and coming up through a military that was [generally] purposely moulding it's soilder's minds to erase his colour. He was provided some buffer of integration to help him rise above the nasty there was.
Now there is Obama, more than 20 years junior either of them. Raised in HI where, though few blacks, a mixing of race in society has been commmon for some time ('white' is well in the minority). So he isn't as motivated to "make up for the past" like Jesse (who has been very well behaved this campaign, Bush isn't the only old fixture that's been MIA ;) ), no chip on his shoulder that's more the size of a millstone. Race isn't holding him back because he mostly doesn't speak to it.
CNN used to be fairly middle of the road (very slightly DEM), but in the last few years, the have definitely moved to the left (but not far left).
In case you didn't figure out from my earlier post, I'm alot further left than CNN is, but I definitely can see thier bias.
Just because they don't repeat the campain untruths and half truths 24/7 like Fox does, does not mean they do not have a bias.
" One thing I really have to wonder about undecideds is how many actually show up at the polls. I'm sure there are some, but if you're that ambivalent between the two candidates, why are you taking the time out of your day to go vote?"
That applies only to the TRUE undecideds, who ABC News estimate at 2% or so (some other pollsters have them higher).
But MOST people have some idea who they will vote for at this point, especially in THIS election where even people who hate politics and resist learning anything about the elections have been bombarded with TV advertising. They must have formed SOME opinions by this point!
In short, they're leaning one way or another, but they MIGHT change their mind. Possibly, the majority of them will vote for McCain, out of fear of the "unknown."
But, remember that 40% of the American people can't even name the three branches of Government! They don't know who their Senator or Congressman is. They can't name the Vice President and they don't know how long a Senator's term is. They also don't know things like that only Congress can declare war, which explains how Bush was able to get away with Iraq for so long.
They are the ones you see on Leno's "Jaywalk All-Stars."
In short there are a LOT of very tuned out people in this country who actively resist knowing anything at all, yet some of them for some strange reason have managed to get registered. Most of these "true undecides" won't vote though.
"Sounds like Crist can read the writing on the wall."
I'm inclined to credit Crist with doing the right thing for the right reasons.
I think he deserves non-partisan praise, not to have his actions minimized by ascribing political motives.
Josh said...
"I think that Obama is being under-sampled in the polling because of:
1. cellphone effect.
2. reverse bradley effect.
3. not accounting for huge increase in black vote.
4. not properly accounting for new voter registrations.
5. Obama's big GOTV advantage.
6. huge enthusiasm advantage"
Actually, items 2 and 3 ar the same thing. A large portion of items 4,5, and 6 are also the same issue.
The biggest other portion of 4 and 6 are the 18-29. Also, item 1 is also the 18-29s. While I'm not saying that the 18-29s are going to come out this year, I haven't seen any signifcant evidence of it and will believe it when I see it.
"CNN used to be fairly middle of the road (very slightly DEM), but in the last few years, the have definitely moved to the left (but not far left)."
George, I believe you have it backwards. CNN, desperate for a share of the FOX viewers, has moved steadily to the right for several years.
The running joke is that they finally sold out just in time to see the market change back to where they once were.
They moved to the right to get an audience, only to see that audience move left. Now they are losing viewers to MSNBC!
If they had only stayed in the center, they would be very well positioned, but they couldn't resist the lure of the wide FOX audience.
I'm a little stunned that anyone left of center could find them moderate, let alone biased left. I'm afraid you are either internet-posturing about your lean or you have not watched much CNN for a few years.
George:
MSNBC daytime has a slight bias toward Obama this year... I would agree. Maddow and Olberman are of course partisans, that's obvious.
I watch them all but I'm an Obama supporter and volunteer.
But take a look at a documentary called "Outfoxed" (netflix has it) to see how far they take their slant. It's pretty revealing and scary.
On another topic YOU ALL NEED TO SEE THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EyGpOU3qM&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/
Can someone get this to Obama camp?? Perhaps they are using some of this in swing state commercials... BTW, how are those commercials? I'm in CA and we see almost nothing.
I'm a Brit currently living in the US. Could someone please explain WHY it takes so long to vote in this country? (I'm not a US citizen and therefore can't see at first hand how the actual voting process works here).
In the UK, loads of 'Polling Stations' are opened in local libraries, schools and community centres throughout election day. Each Polling Station opens at 7am and closes at 10 pm on the day. There are several private booths set up in each place where we take our ballot paper, mark a cross against the candidate's name with the pencil they've provided on a bit of string and then pop it in the strongbox. The whole process takes about 5 minutes tops, I've never had to wait in line and in central London I can walk to Polling Station in 5-10 minutes (You would probably need to drive out in the suburbs and rural areas). All very low tech, but no drama and no hassle.
Are the US lines just because there aren't enough polling stations? Or does the actual process of voting with machines take a lot longer? Just colour me very confused...
I do not believe that CNN is "biased" for the Democrats. I think they are "biased" for a story. What I mean by that is, they seem to fabricate story lines to have something to talk about. It's rough with a 24/7 news cycle, you know.
If they were really biased for the Dems they wouldn't let so many of McCain/Palin's ridiculous lies go unchecked.
>> CNN used to be fairly middle of the road (very slightly DEM), but in the last few years, the have definitely moved to the left (but not far left).
Staking out turf. The idea of largely non-partisan news outlets came into vogue early last century, or so. It was largely for commercial reasons as you could have a much larger base of people to mass market to.
However Murdock came in without a slice of the pie at all. He saw that there was a fringe that nobody was willing to pander to. That saw things far enough off the norm yet large enough and affluent enough to make a business out of, something that was already happening with the birth of ultra-conservativ talk radio.
CNN has been trying some differentiation too (ending up, in a very general sense, little left of centre, right of NBC). Though this new Brown show seems to be an effort to make sure they aren't missing any gaps to the right (and heaping a little disdain on everyone ;) ). *shrug*
John said...
""Sounds like Crist can read the writing on the wall."
I'm inclined to credit Crist with doing the right thing for the right reasons.
I think he deserves non-partisan praise, not to have his actions minimized by ascribing political motives."
Fair enough. However, the truth is that I never heard of the guy before this election and so have very little upon which to base a decision of his character on. As sad as it may be, Republicans as a whole will have to prove they deserve benefit of the doubt. I will admit that Crist does indeed seem to be playing fair and he certainly was one of the earlier ones to step away from McCain. What I don't know is if he'd have promoted the same early vote policy had McCain been closer in the election polls.
I personally try to remain fairly independant overall though I'm most certainly Pro-Obama this year and anti-Republican at the moment due to the insane double standards I'm seeing out of them as a generic whole.
Are the US lines just because there aren't enough polling stations? Or does the actual process of voting with machines take a lot longer? Just colour me very confused...
I'm not very familiar with how long the ballots are in the UK, but in the US (at least in Oregon), a general election ballot can have as many as 30 races on it, a lot of which are complicated referendum measures, that unless you've carefully prepared for, can take a while to go through. Makes me grateful that I can do my ballot by mail....
mirrormirror said...
"I'm a Brit currently living in the US. Could someone please explain WHY it takes so long to vote in this country? (I'm not a US citizen and therefore can't see at first hand how the actual voting process works here).
In the UK, loads of 'Polling Stations' are opened in local libraries, schools and community centres throughout election day. Each Polling Station opens at 7am and closes at 10 pm on the day. There are several private booths set up in each place where we take our ballot paper, mark a cross against the candidate's name with the pencil they've provided on a bit of string and then pop it in the strongbox. The whole process takes about 5 minutes tops, I've never had to wait in line and in central London I can walk to Polling Station in 5-10 minutes (You would probably need to drive out in the suburbs and rural areas). All very low tech, but no drama and no hassle.
Are the US lines just because there aren't enough polling stations? Or does the actual process of voting with machines take a lot longer? Just colour me very confused..."
Among the likely reasons...
1) Some people wait until they get there to make up their minds and agonize in the booths over decisions on some of the other issues and elections. Perhaps not the Presidential or Senate, but some House issues, local ordinances etc.
2) Poorer areas generally get less than optimal equipment so it is entirely possible or even likely to see machines break down.
3) Polling locations that are understaffed, underequipped or underestimate turnout.
mirrormirror said:
"I'm a Brit currently living in the US. Could someone please explain WHY it takes so long to vote in this country?"
I believe your system is very similar to ours in Canada, at least at the federal level.
Have you seen what American voters have to fill out? Americans' elections are syncronized at all levels of government to happen the same time. So while voting for President they are voting for just about everybody down to the local dog catcher and which persons are going to run the next election (yes, they elect their election officals). So it ends up this huge multi-question, multi-page exam.
Zogby National Poll
10/29/2008
Obama - 49%
McCain - 44%
The static alone can cause a fire ...
I've long has a thought about Perot I wanted to share. It occured to me while watching him campaign and hearing about his business successes what he truly was. Think about this. Bald, big ears, loves profits. The guy was a complete Ferengi
Dude has lobes.
Nathan- you're right- electing Romney WAS shameful.
I agree with John- if you see a leftish bias in CNN you have lost track of how far right the posts have been moved- Conservative News Network.
All of you talking about the bias of FOX, CNN, MSNBC etc have kind of missed the point- it shouldn't be called MSM, call it for what it is- corporate media. They'll pander to whomever nets them the most eyeballs, but whatever their biases, the most telling thing about them is all of the things that they don't report on. Look how few stories of corporate malfeasance are covered by them except when it's Katrina-like proportions. Notice how little coverage of the wars you see and how they rolled over for Bushco. When was the last time you saw a story on disabled vets or footage of civilian casualties. They suck and they don't deserve our attention until they start doing real journalism again and stop the 24/7 Brittneywatch.
End the infantilism- watch Frontline, you'll be better informed and have a lot more free time.
WV = chopaug. a Melville character?
Can we have a separate site for the likelihood of Hasselbeck being canned from the View?
(Even from Italy she sounds repulsive....)
@mirrormirror:
I am also from Oregon, so I also get the opportunity to do my ballot at home, which is good, because I have to vote for:
-President
-Senator
-Representative
-City Council (And some years, mayor)
-County Commissioner
-State Superintendent of Public Instruction
-State Attorney General
-State Treasurer
-State Commissioner of Labor and Industries
-State Secretary of State
-State Senator
-State Representative
-Judges
-County Sheriff
-East Multnomah County Soil and Water Conservation District At Large Position #2 (I actually didn't make a decision about this one. I am also not making this up.)
-At least a half dozen ballot measures
-A community college bond measure
-A zoo bond measure
-Another levy, district unknown
Not all states are quite this heavy, but some are, and some have other positions that are voted upon.
Josh said: I do not believe that CNN is "biased" for the Democrats. I think they are "biased" for a story. What I mean by that is, they seem to fabricate story lines to have something to talk about. It's rough with a 24/7 news cycle, you know.
That's what I think, too. I think they're happy to have a sensational story to talk about, whether it benefits Democrats or Republicans.
I don't watch CNN much anymore, but I know they drove me crazy over the summer (Wolf Blitzer especially). It felt like they were doing McCain's bidding, consistently making his campaign's talking points their story of the day. But I'm not sure it was so much out of a desire to help him as it was that he was feeding them talking points they wanted to talk about. For example: "McCain says Obama's playing the race card! Oh boy, that's a juicy, sensational story! We can prattle on about that for hours!"
I'm not sure who first coined the phrase "catnip for the media", but it certainly has been apt this election cycle.
@mirrormirror
(and sundry others)
It should also be remembered, (and I hope it isn't a disappointment for everyone so excited about this election), that the presidential race isn't necessarily the most important part of this election. Much of the power of the US President is symbolic. Most of the harm that Bush did was not through using his power, but through his ability to cow or delude congress. Which is why if McCain somehow does manage to get in, he will be almost totally impotent. Besides, of course, the launch codes.
Wasn't Selzer working on a poll of Indiana that was supposed to be released a week or so ago? Did it disappear? Were the numbers such an outlier that they ripped 'em up? Has she been paid off by a vast right-wing conspiracy?
I mean, this is WV:reellyz getting on my nerves.
Yikes! Now I'm starting to understand...
I thought you might like to see a copy of a UK ballot paper for comparison.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/voters_guide/html/7.stm
We vote for an MP of course - the largest party then chooses the Prime Minister. We have separate elections for a local councillor, for European MEPs and in London for the Mayor of London. And that's it...
Matthew said...
"@mirrormirror
(and sundry others)
It should also be remembered, (and I hope it isn't a disappointment for everyone so excited about this election), that the presidential race isn't necessarily the most important part of this election. Much of the power of the US President is symbolic. Most of the harm that Bush did was not through using his power, but through his ability to cow or delude congress. Which is why if McCain somehow does manage to get in, he will be almost totally impotent. Besides, of course, the launch codes."
This is actually one of my biggest fears in a McCain administration. Problems all around and he'd likely be spending all his time trying to force his ideas (right wing or centrist old McCain) through a resentful congress.
Obama on the other hand I see as being smart enough to realize how to craft more centrally leaning legislation and find consensus among the congress as a whole. He'd likely have more support as a smart congress would realize that their success is largly tied to his, particularly the more vulnerable Dems and Reps that want to be seen as aiding the country. Obviously he cannot jump on a "socialist" agenda, but so long as the ideas he puts forth are reasonable and his presidency is seen as being effective as a whole then I forsee him getting the cooperation he needs. In addition the more powerful his "mandate" and public support is seen to be, the more support he should have.
mirrormirror said...
"Yikes! Now I'm starting to understand...
I thought you might like to see a copy of a UK ballot paper for comparison.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/voters_guide/html/7.stm
We vote for an MP of course - the largest party then chooses the Prime Minister. We have separate elections for a local councillor, for European MEPs and in London for the Mayor of London. And that's it..."
The pileup on our ballots varies. We vote twice a year, but presidential years it gets quite insane. 1/3rd of the senate is always up for election, So odds are pretty good for a senate race on the state ballot along side the Presidential tickets. The House of Representatives also may have a race in your district. Then whatever state, county and city officials, judges and such need elected. Then comes your actual issues. On an "off" year the ballots can be quite limited, but every 4 they do get fairly crowded.
Hey guys.
If ya want some politcal satire, here's how us Aussies see the election.
http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/racerace/
It's well worth a listen.
"I have a dream!"
"...and I like pie"
"I have a dream!"
"...and I like pie"
And as for the issue of the simplistic paper ballots you make use of, I think the reason as for why we don't go that route any longer is to speed up the counting process. That is why there has been such efforts being made to modernize and computerize the election process. If all were to work well, you'd have near instant results when polls close, barring provisional and absentee ballots.
Zogby is stable tonight, it is more surprising that Zogby has finally found stability in his bad polling than anything about the race.
The race looks stable going into the last relavent of the campaign - the infomercial - and the infomercial can only be good for Obama.
It's all good! Back to bed now!
Okay, I just have to share this comment from a MSNBC thread purely for the "signature" of the poster.
When is Ms. Palin exaggerating what she knows...and lying? Everytime her lips move.
VOTE OBAMA/BIDENon 4 NOV!!!
A RABID REPUBLICAN VIETNAM-ERA VET FAT OLD PREJUDICED WHITE GUY NOW FOR OBAMA/BIDEN
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/28/1600857.aspx
Rick-
Kinda right. The Bush administration did cow Congress to go into Iraq. That said do not underestimate the huge power of all those branches of the executive that Bush completely screwed up - from the Patent Office to the Justice Department to the Treasury and the Fed Reserve. The Pres holds huge power.
It will be an amazing change to have a constitutional law scholar in that chair who truly understands government.
Brad said...
"Rick-
Kinda right. The Bush administration did cow Congress to go into Iraq. That said do not underestimate the huge power of all those branches of the executive that Bush completely screwed up - from the Patent Office to the Justice Department to the Treasury and the Fed Reserve. The Pres holds huge power.
It will be an amazing change to have a constitutional law scholar in that chair who truly understands government."
The part about the president being powerless and Bush having bullied his way through wasn't mine, that was a quote from an earlier poster.
That said Brad, I agree with you fully that it will be a godsend to have a constitutional scholar let alone open minded thinker in office to show how it's done right, just as he's shown how you REALLY campaign.
Stay pure, don't vote, Nate!
Oh, and, of course- Congratulations to President Elect Douchebama!
@brad:
"That said do not underestimate the huge power of all those branches of the executive that Bush completely screwed up - from the Patent Office to the Justice Department to the Treasury and the Fed Reserve. The Pres holds huge power."
But the different executive branches can only implement laws that the legislative puts into effect, and that most of the positions in those executive branches are subject to legislative approval. A slightly more active congress might have had a few questions about whether horse show management was the best job experience for running FEMA. Of course, the executive branch can also abuse or bend laws, but that is beside my main point.
My main point was more directed at foreign readers who might not understand exactly what the president does: which is basically to implement laws that the congress decides on.
Which, back to my original comments, was about why the ballots were so long. Deciding on president isn't the most important part of the ballot. In the long run, the people who write the laws are perhaps more important than the president, who implements them and is also a symbolic leader.
Matthew said...
"Which, back to my original comments, was about why the ballots were so long. Deciding on president isn't the most important part of the ballot. In the long run, the people who write the laws are perhaps more important than the president, who implements them and is also a symbolic leader."
And yet we've seen how much harm can be done by someone who abuses and misinterprets what power they do have. After the last 8 years no one should ever be viewing the Presidency as symbolic.
Nate - why doesn't Obama go to AZ now that it looks so close? Those 10 EVs look awfully appealing.
Do you really think he's concerned about a "running up the score" backlash??
obsessed said...
"Nate - why doesn't Obama go to AZ now that it looks so close? Those 10 EVs look awfully appealing.
Do you really think he's concerned about a "running up the score" backlash??"
I'd doubt it. But a more real concern could well be that with time running out he could risk losing a state such as Florida or Virginia if he doesn't pay enough attention to them. Let's see what his infomercial does to all of the closer states first. He might be able to squeak by a victory there without having to visit.
It looks to me like McCain has chosen to go out with some small measure of dignity.
He has chosen "Socialist" as the key word for his last few days. It could have been "Wright", "Terorist" or "Baby killer".
Not that his supporters or his attack bitch are so limited, but he in not that much further into the gutter than previous camaigners.
For that matter even Palin is eyeing the high road (if not actualy walking it) with her comments on special needs kids.
This could all go peacefully.
@Rick:
Ah, of course. In 2002, when Bush put the the act to congress asking for authorization to use force in Iraq, they defeated it by 297-133 in the house and 77-23 in the Senate. It was a good thing that the majority of Democratic Senators voted against it!
Yet even without congressional approve, Bush still went to war.
Blame said...
"It looks to me like McCain has chosen to go out with some small measure of dignity.
He has chosen "Socialist" as the key word for his last few days. It could have been "Wright", "Terorist" or "Baby killer".
Not that his supporters or his attack bitch are so limited, but he in not that much further into the gutter than previous camaigners.
For that matter even Palin is eyeing the high road (if not actualy walking it) with her comments on special needs kids.
This could all go peacefully."
I agree that McCain has backed down from the most virulent of the arguments, yet he still refuses to denounce some of the worst attacks. His choice of running mate also still remains to be accounted for and she is increasingly going off script in what certainly looks like an effort to position herself nationally. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for a peaceful end.
Personally I think McCain hit a good tune in the last couple of days:
"Obama wants to spread the wealth, I want to create wealth"
If he had that months ago and stuck to it he would have done a lot better. He was on a message that people want to hear about (Economy) and he wouldn't be alienating the Independents and moderate Democrats flirting with McCain with the hateful personal attacks.
Aussie bloke said...
"Personally I think McCain hit a good tune in the last couple of days:
"Obama wants to spread the wealth, I want to create wealth"
If he had that months ago and stuck to it he would have done a lot better. He was on a message that people want to hear about (Economy) and he wouldn't be alienating the Independents and moderate Democrats flirting with McCain with the hateful personal attacks."
No argument here. Though he also needed to come up with more details about how he plans on creating said wealth/jobs beyond simply cutting taxes, particularly when they are mostly aimed at the upper bracket companies.
Had he come up with an actual economic game plan early on, stuck with it and met Obama in a discussion on the issues he could have gotten away with the attack ads more and would probably be doing a great deal better right now.
Franklin and Marshall /Scranton Times PA Poll:
Obama - 53
McCain - 40
Link
No link yet, just moved on the AP wire:
The polling shows Obama holding solid leads in Ohio (7
percentage points), Nevada (12 points), Colorado (9) and Virginia
(7), all red states won by Bush that collectively offer 47
electoral votes.
...
The AP-GfK Battleground State Poll was conducted from Oct. 22-26
in eight states.
I'll look around for a link, but I'm not trolling - these are actual poll numbers.
Found a link. here.
Numbers from that AP-GfK Poll:
Colorado: 50-41 Obama
Florida: 45-43 Obama
Nevada: 52-40 Obama
New Hampshire: 55-37 Obama
North Carolina: 48-46 Obama
Ohio: 48-41 Obama
Pennsylvania: 52-40 Obama
Virginia: 49-42 Obama
New AP-gfk State Polls:
Florida:
O-45
M-43
NC:
O-48
M-46
VA:
O-49
M-42
PA:
O-52
M-40
NV:
O-52
M-40
CO:
O-50
M-41
NH:
O-55
M-37
A good set of numbers for Obama.
I want to present an argument here. I am old enough to remember the assassination of Bobby and MLK. I remember the effects of the assassination of JFK that my family suffered through. I remember Neil Armstrong stepping onto the moon. We were at our finest and; simultaneously, at our worst as a nation.
We are at that point again. I'm not going to bother you with an historic parade down the galley of reasons that we have gone wrong. I think you know them.
What I am going to suggest is that 2008 is another defining moment in American history. One that is as equally as strong as the events of the 1960's. We have an opportunity to become greater than our history or we have the ability to vote our fears.
I implore you not to miss this opportunity.
Obama, '08
The already voted breakdown in the same poll.
Numbers from that AP-GfK Poll:
Colorado: 57-34 Obama
Florida: 45-38 Obama
Nevada: 56-33 Obama
New Hampshire: 52-34 Obama
North Carolina: 59-33 Obama
Ohio: 56-28 Obama
Pennsylvania: 65-22 Obama
Virginia: 67-23 Obama
Tends to suggest that the GOTV effort is working and While Obama is locking in a solid vote lead, McCain's supporters can be swayed.
from the Franklin Marshall poll:
More than half of voters (51 percent) said they would be concerned if Mr. Obama were elected. More than a third (37 percent) say they’re concerned because of his lack of experience, though that’s down from almost half of voters (48 percent) who had that concern last month.
Almost six in 10 voters (57 percent) say Mr. McCain has the experience needed to be president compared to only about three in 10 (28 percent) who said that of Mr. Obama.
---
And that's the reason why tonight's add will help boost Obama's numbers or at least increase the probability of undecideds moving towards him. I think the campaign bought the adds mainly for this reason
samule said...
"And that's the reason why tonight's add will help boost Obama's numbers or at least increase the probability of undecideds moving towards him. I think the campaign bought the adds mainly for this reason"
Yup. The timing is no accident either. Not to mention why it'll be a well crafted, taped event rather than a live one which risks mistakes.
However, I highly doubt the validity of those specific numbers given recent polling on those topics and his current margin in the national and relevant state polls.
sorry ads
word verification: easpaks (subliminal advertisement?)
rick said
However, I highly doubt the validity of those specific numbers given recent polling on those topics and his current margin in the national and relevant state polls.
I totally agree, the numbers seem too high. They do translate a last bit of doubt though, that Obama will hopefully dispell tonight
"roponist", it gets weirder and weirder
I find the undecided question a kind of fascinating element of polling and how pollsters have to score answers. Someone else discussed this upthread, but I don't think that very many folks who show up in the "undecided" category in the polls are in fact undecided. I suspect that a lot of them are fairly jaded voters who think the whole system is corrupt, etc., and say things like "I don't like either one of them" or "They're both liars." When I was registering voters, we heard a lot of that attitude (and then would remind people about all of the important downticket races). But I would imagine that such responses show up in poll numbers as "undecided" or "uncommitted" because those voters are in fact uncommitted to either candidate. But they are not, as George Steph-o pointed out, very likely to be persuadable.
I am sure there is still a portion of the electorate that really doesn't know whether it will vote for McCain or Obama, but I suspect that number is much smaller than the polls indicate in their "undecided" numbers. That's not to say that there aren't some weak Obama leaners who could still vote McCain on Tuesday. But, I think, the possibility of that dwindles by the day.
I hope Obama busts out a chart tonight--you know the one that places his tax plan by income level side-by-side with McCain's? That little graphic is the most powerful persuasion piece I've seen all campaign cycle, and I can't figure out why it isn't everywhere. But then I'm in Texas, so it's hard for me to tell what's going on out there. Were it not for the internet, I'd have probably only seen presidential ads about 8 times total.
Davy, I appreciate your views, and share your overall sentiments about this being an important, if not "historic," election.
I sincerely wish, though, that you and all boomers would stop returning to the 60s as the comparison point for any significant time in American history. One thing I am most particularly excited about with Obama, rather than Clinton, on the ticket is that it might be a transition away from the 60s continuing to dominate our political culture. As a person who studies US history, I do understand that it was an important and volatile time for the nation. But 40 years out, I am ready for a time when we are no longer under its long casting shadow. A growing percentage of the electorate wasn't even alive during the 60s and barely remembers Watergate (if at all). While I think it's bad whenever we lose sight of any part of our history, I think it's good to embrace shifts in our culture. The 60s were an important time, but I'm not sure that they're even the right comparison point to where we are today. And, quite frankly, though I have a tremendous amount of respect for RFK, particularly after his brother's death, I feel a bit sick that Obama has to put up with all the Kennedy comparison stuff.
McCain Backwards Surgeeeeeeeeee!!!
AP/GfK this morning:
CO: O-51, M-41
FL: O-45, M-43
NV: O-52, M-40
NH: O-55, M-37
NC: O-48, M-46
OH: O-48, M-41
http://www.ap-gfkpoll.com/
Quinnipiac this morning:
OH: O+9%
FL O+2%
PA O+12%
No link yet
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
Wow, look at today's polls.
For all the talk about "tightening" polls, McCain is still behind in every single battleground state, and even further behind when you look at votes already cast. Many of these leads (Virginia, Colorado, Ohio, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania) are really strong.
FL: O-45, M-43
Florida dangerously tightening...McCain surge!
(cherrypicking for concern trolling ;-))
AP and Quinnipiac polls show good numbers for Obama. There appears to be a huge boost for Obama in NV and NH, though I can't exactly explain it. Ohio is now fixed at about +6 to +8 for Obama. NC and FL appear to be a bit closer than a few weeks ago, however, and early voting in Florida shows only a slight advantage for Obama. Obama should go to Florida and stop fooling around with McCain in Pennsylvania.
Teh Narrowing!
Teh Surge!!
Teh Victory!!!
LOL @ AP/GfK polls. This is the same outfit that said Obama is up by one point nationally. How could they possible reconcile those results in the "close" states with Obama being up one point nationally, consider that he's also up 25 pt in the most populous states of NY and CA, while McCain has big margins only in a few sparsely populated states?
I'd just like to throw out a random observation. On the democratic side the wives have had no problems going out solo and stumping for their husbands. Plus they have the Clintons helping out.
On the other hand, I have yet to see McCain without his wife the proper 2 steps back, nor have I heard a word out of Todd Palin. In addition they don't have a surrogate along the lines of the Clintons.
Just another area where the campaign disparity is so very clear.
OH and PA are gone.
Buh byeeeeee McPalin!
SHERWICK said...
"OH and PA are gone.
Buh byeeeeee McPalin!"
So good to hear that rather than the "Hell with Ohio, we don't need em to win" stuff of just a few weeks back.
I love this site!
I have seen in the last week 2 of my friends who were undecided, decide. One of them still refuses to say he's voting for Obama, but I know he is. In both cases McCain just ran out of time to make his case to them. While I seem to think the choice was clear, they didn't. What helped clear it up for them was McCain's choice of Palin and the fact that this country has such a terrible standing in the World (due to Bush). Both of these guys value the effect that they have finally seen (albeit w/Colin Powell's help)that an Obama presidency will have on our international reputation. McCain really dug his own grave with his inconsistency and negativity. While I fail to see how it took them so long to figure this out, I do respect them for at least giving it diligent thought. I have another friend who is a socially green conservative and can't seem to get out of the McCain brain drain. He is afraid of Obama and can't be convinced that there is nothing to fear but fear itself. Once again, as I saw in other post, the black guy (you could insert any other minority or the word woman here) has to be 10x better and run an almost perfect game in order to get the votes. Imagine if Obama had gone as negative as McCain. There would be massive "angry black man" fodder for the media to play with. Just like they accuse every strong woman of having too much testosterone or being a man-hating lesbian. I simply think we have run out of time to let old white guys try to fix the mess they have created. Why not let a brilliant multi-cultural man have a chance to bring this country together and help us find new perspectives. If nothing else he has proven through his campaign that he can find a way (and the right people in the right positions)to overcome impossible odds and keep his campaign solvent and moving in a positive direction. Imagine if he does the same thing for the country that he has demonstrated he can do in a 2 year campaign.
On MSNBC, I love Olberman and Maddow, but Keith goes over the top all the time. The only reason I keep watching Keith is that he does bring to light some of the things that slip through the cracks on other "news" casts. I watch Rachel because she is a lesbian and funny and therefore I have a huge crush on her! ;-) Truthfully I flip between them and CNN.
Lord help us if they steal this election, and though I don't put it past them, my 2 friends mentioned above, and the fact that my mom made sure my dad's ballot said Obama before she would let him mail it, give me HOPE for our future like I've never had before.
R2000 is getting a bit bouncy.
Obama +13 on Oct 13th
to
Obama +7 on Oct 18th
to
Obama +12 on Oct 24/25
to
Obama +6 on Oct 29 (Today)
Aussie bloke said...
"R2000 is getting a bit bouncy.
Obama +13 on Oct 13th
to
Obama +7 on Oct 18th
to
Obama +12 on Oct 24/25
to
Obama +6 on Oct 29 (Today)"
I'd say that their samples are causing them to hit both sides of their margin of error, so call it +9.
The choice is simple:
1. Obama = Hope for the Future.
or
2. McCain = Hate for the Future.
"Rick said...
The already voted breakdown in the same poll.
Numbers from that AP-GfK Poll:
Colorado: 57-34 Obama
Florida: 45-38 Obama
Nevada: 56-33 Obama
New Hampshire: 52-34 Obama
North Carolina: 59-33 Obama
Ohio: 56-28 Obama
Pennsylvania: 65-22 Obama
Virginia: 67-23 Obama"
And huge numbers have already voted in OH!
http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html
SHERWICK said...
"2. McCain = Hate for the Future."
And that's just between him and his running mate. The rest of the country would really be stuck waist deep in it.
@mirrormirror
Here is a PDF of this year's ballot in one district in Santa Cruz, California:
link to ballot PDF
I live in New Zealand. My absentee ballot was made very simple because everything on this ballot was crossed off except the President/Vice Preaident and the United States Representative.
I am about to vote here in our New Zealand election. The ballot is twice as complicated as yours :-). It has one column for me to check a vote for a party (my "list" vote) and one column for me to vote for a local MP. One thing I really like about the system here is that I can feel that I am not throwing my vote away just because I know that I don't agree with the majority. I live in a district that will elect a local MP that is way to the right of my preferences, and my MP vote won't change that, but my list vote will be part of the greater than 5% who will ensure that the party I vote for will be there in Parliament and if I am lucky will be part of the coalition that forms a Government. I like the sense of empowerment I get with this system compared to the all-or-nothing aspects of the US system.
Okay, a little concern trolling about the ap-gfk: in PA, nearly 10% of the respondents say they voted early, and 65% of those for Obama. Only one problem: you can't vote early in PA. You can only vote absentee in PA, and for quite limited reasons that would not favor Obama. Could be a bradley-style effect?
Fuck me if McCain isn't going to have weak turn-out. I mean really, who besides the Palin nuts is excited to vote for this ticket?
kirby96 said...
"Okay, a little concern trolling about the ap-gfk: in PA, nearly 10% of the respondents say they voted early, and 65% of those for Obama. Only one problem: you can't vote early in PA. You can only vote absentee in PA, and for quite limited reasons that would not favor Obama. Could be a bradley-style effect?"
Why can't absentee voting favor Obama? I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion.
"Why can't absentee voting favor Obama? I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion."
That's an assumption to be sure. I'm assuming it's largely military, old people, and retirees in Florida. Not Obama's bread and butter.
@hermance
I'm going to presume that you are younger than I am. But don't take this comment as a 'young whippersnapper' type of response. I think it's good that you are a student of history.
Let me clarify. I'm not drawing comparisons of Obama to Kennedy. What I am attempting to illustrate is that the tenor of the 1960's is similar to the tone of today's campaign/situation. Surely you can't deny that this presidential race hasn't taken on an air of McCarthyism.
I appreciate your perspective but as someone who lived it, I hope you'll take a fresh perspective on your analysis.
Don't try to school me, son, I was there. We're there again whether you recognize it or not.
rick -
The conclusion comes from (and I quote) "quite limited reason[ing]".
:)
Sorry for the of topic post to start the day, but this is getting very scary. GM can't get enough to keep running and is stopping R and D even for some truly excellent short term products like the Volt and the Cruze.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081029/FREE/810299997/1508/newsletter02
Buy American and lets get this bank crisis turned around...
Sarah Palin all for states stealing national resources for the good of the states over the citizens of the WHOLE country.
"We're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs."
-- Gov. Sarah Palin, quoted by the New Yorker, a few weeks before she was nominated for vice president.
Excuse the heck out of me for asking a question that doesn't meet your standards of quality, Subterranean. I guess I was mistaken when I came to this site expecting to discuss the foibles of the polls we are seeing. I must have missed the, "must be expert in all aspects of voting, and be an unquestioning Obama supporter" banner at the top. I AM an Obama supporter by the way. Don't worry,I won't ask any more stupid questions, so you can get back to your incestuous Obama love fest.
she is a true communist :)
"theriver" FTW!!!
R@k tracker down to 6 this morning - BO 50, McCan't 44
mcain gained another point this morning.
http://www.dailykos.com/
kirby96 said...
Okay, a little concern trolling about the ap-gfk: in PA, nearly 10% of the respondents say they voted early, and 65% of those for Obama. Only one problem: you can't vote early in PA. You can only vote absentee in PA, and for quite limited reasons that would not favor Obama. Could be a bradley-style effect?
I live in PA, and my husband and my daughter have already cast absentee ballots for Obama because they will be out of state next Tuesday. I am not sure why absentee ballots favor one side or the other.
midif(!)
Drudge:
Ras: Obama's lead down to 3.
Hmmm
Fred:
Don't think the banking crisis will be turned around soon (see NY Times editorial today). The banks are looking out for their own self interest rather than what is best for country. Much in the same way that GM looked out for it's own self interest and short term profits by building SUV's and trucks instead of looking to the future like the Japanese/European auto makers who began looking at enery efficiency years ago.
Your point is interesting in PA kirby, the problem is the samples are so small in the non-early voting states that I really don't trust them for much.
The non-early vote states are the one that matter next week. I need a PA tracker and the NH tracker this morning after the R2K tightening.
fred said...
"Sarah Palin all for states stealing national resources for the good of the states over the citizens of the WHOLE country.
"We're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs."
-- Gov. Sarah Palin, quoted by the New Yorker, a few weeks before she was nominated for vice president."
Don't forget that she taxed the oil companies this very year specifically to spread that wealth amongst the citizens of Alaska. While it is true she didn't start the whole concept of shared oil resource socialism, she sure didn't seem to have any problem when on top of the normal refund she did her own windfall tax and provided the secondary check.
Lets face it, there isn't an attack they've thrown yet that couldn't be lobbed right back at them.
Well, it's official. There is some tightening. Lord knows why.
I am just glad we have this 30 minute ad tonight. I think that will stop this, and start to push back towards mccain.
My guess is that we are looking at 52-46 election day still.
McCain Surge !!!
We are seeing tightening, there is no real question now. Obama seems to have reached his peak and the undecideds are breaking for McCain?
Sorry Nate, that seems the take home. Am I worng? Someone please prove to me I am wrong, please, I want to be wrong.
Anyone have some internals from the Ras tracker this morning? Is it already up for subscribers (as the post above might indicate).
fred said...
"We are seeing tightening, there is no real question now. Obama seems to have reached his peak and the undecideds are breaking for McCain?
Sorry Nate, that seems the take home. Am I worng? Someone please prove to me I am wrong, please, I want to be wrong."
Honestly? I'd way to see what we get tomorrow before panicing. Tomorrow mornings numbers won't include the ad buy itself, but should let us know if this is a minor flux due to polling error and such or an actual tightening.
New Obama Ad
Link
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