In an article in today's Wall Street Journal, Karl Rove asserts the following:
What about swing voters? There are probably more undecided and persuadable voters open to switching their choice than in any election since 1968.Is it true that there are an unusually high number of swing voters this year? Not really, although it may be slightly higher than average. Let's go to the video tape ... err... the Gallup Polling archive.
What I've done here is simply to take the number of unaccounted-for voters in the Gallup survey closest to October 1st of the election year in question. By "unaccounted for" (or "unaccounted") I mean voters that Gallup had not assigned to any particular candidate. This will include your true uncommitteds, as well as refusals and don't-knows, and voters committed to minor party candidates that Gallup did not mention by name.

In the Gallup tracking poll that straddled October 1st, 8 percent of voters were unaccounted for. This figure is significantly higher than 2004, an unusually partisan election in which just 2 percent of voters were unaccounted for. But, it was no higher than 2000 or 1976, and lower than in 1988. On average, since 1936, 6.8 percent of voters were unaccounted for in the Gallup poll as of October 1st, as compared this year's 8 percent; the difference is not statistically significant. If we look only at results since 1960 -- Gallup's polling was a little sketchy in its early years -- the average number of unaccounteds is 6.4 percent. So this year's figure is probably toward the higher end of the spectrum, but well within the normal range.
The number of persuadable voters -- and this is a broader universe, since it includes not only uncommitted voters, but also those who are nominally committed but who could potentially change their minds -- is a little tougher to get a handle on. But the Pew Research Center has some useful data. Since 1992, they have included in their standard battery a question asking whether voters had decided against one or another of the major party candidates. For instance, as of Pew's most recent survey from late last month, 42 percent of voters said they had decided against Senator McCain, and 37 percent said they'd decided against Senator Obama. This leaves 21 percent of voters who are theoretically open to either major party candidate. We can compare these to the Pew numbers released in Early October 1992, Late September 1996, Early October 2000, and Early October 2004.

This year's numbers are right in line with past elections, again with the mild exception of 2004, when an unusually high fraction of the electorate had ruled out either George Bush or John Kerry. And remember, more voters have decided against McCain than Obama. The candidates to exceed the 42 percent of voters who have thus far said "no how, no way, no McCain" were George Bush, Sr. in 1992 (46 percent), Bob Dole in 1996 (44 percent), and John Kerry in 2004 (45 percent), all of whom lost their elections.

192 comments
Karl Rove is merely spinning on his chorizo.
is it possible to have some historic bradley effect statistics to see where those undecided might lean?
Why are you posting on Yom Kippur? LOL
@fert:
Bradley effect statistics for other races have shown that the effect has become almost neglible over time; see Sam Wang's paper on that. However, there's no comparing effects in a presidential race to effects in other races, so it's unpredictable. But as Mark Blumenthal at Pollster argued yesterday, any effects will likely be counteracted by cell phone-only effects and bad likely voter models, both of which (the CW goes) will benefit Obama.
I'd like to see a Gallup Poll on Unaccounted-For Candidates after McCain wanders off the stage in the next debate
26 days and counting.
McCain is supposedly up to more shenanigans tomorrow morning. It will be especially pleasing when Obama reams him and the entire GOP on Nov 4. I will relish every electoral vote like it was my last.
"is it possible to have some historic bradley effect statistics to see where those undecided might lean?"
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Bradley Effect is. The Bradley effect isn't "how many people won't vote for a black man"...it's "how many people lied to a pollster saying they voted for the black man, but actually voted for the white guy"
Nobody...nobody...in this election should feel the need to lie to an automatic voice recorded pollster. The Bradley effect just doesn't come into play on any of these polls. They MAY come into effect from EXIT POLLS, but we won't know that until election day.
2nd Debate: Live Analysis
Checkout my piece on Youth Voter Registration. For every 100 registered voters aged 18-24, the democrats accrue a 9 vote advantage.
Obama 349, McCain 189
Oct 8 Polling Update
A New Republic...an Party
Fact-checking the pundits! Hi-ho!
Wait, wait, wait...
You're saying that Karl Rove, in his cover role as a political analyst, *gasp* LIED?!
I did NOT see that coming!
Who could have foreseen that Karl Rove wouldn't be an honest political analyst when he was hired for that role?
Nate - GET SOME SLEEP :) I have an excuse - I'm a database specialist for political mail consultants - through rain, sleet, snow, rain - we get that political mail into your mailboxes!
Nate, You are putting up a new post at 2 in the morning? Thought that this was just for the scattered few left debating the dollar and stocks and other misc subjects such as Politico's news that the Mc Cain campaign has big news for tomorrow. What big news? Is there someone you can call and put me out of my agony. Someone has written that:
"Between 8:45 PM and 9:15 PM tonight (Oct 8) on Intrade, someone just bet a LOT of money against Obama winning the presidency. And I mean a LOT. His stock, which has been over 70 for a couple of days now and at 76 most of the time today dipped down to 64 or so in those 20 minutes under heavy betting before recovering immediately after 9:15 to 73... Very strange.. is there something someone knows??"
Of course they have a million opinions ... big BIG news that will take the win percentage right out of this and give it all to Mc Cain with lots of hate speak going on. Can't Sleep!!
As much as I want more certainty about an Obama win, I feel it is better to have some level of uncertainty in order to keep the NRC and the right-wing 527's spending their money on McCain rather than on congressional/senatorial races.
I believe Obama will win, and I'd like to see as big a Democratic majority in congress (maybe even 60+ in the Senate) to allow him to push thru his initiatives.
cher - it's probably nothing. Just the same guy (or guys) that did similar trades Nate noticed late last month.
Personally, I think it's the same day traders that hedged the stock market through the past 8 years ... (/sarcasm)
@cher -
check out Nate's earlier post on intrade: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/intrade
People have been making crazy bets to manipulate the market there before. I wouldn't be too worried - though that is pretty crazy.
One thing I just noticed - ALL 15 states on Nate's Tipping Point list currently lean Obama!!
More relevant to your model would be the question whether voter preferences are more volatile this year around, compared to previous years.
yeh get some sleep, 'cos this election will come around every year.
Question to Nate:
When you say "Obama loses OH/MI, wins election 26.79%" is this the probability that Obama loses OH/MI *AND* wins election, or the probability that Obama wins election *GIVEN* that he loses OH/MI?
I would guess from way things are written that the former is what was computed, but I believe that the latter is the quantity of interest.
Nate, it would be interesting to see an analisys, how these undecideds and persuadables have historically split up. My guess is that some of them did not vote, and those who did split up in a proportion similar to that among the decided voters in each state. That assumption is correct to a certain degree, it would be interesting to find out to what degree, i.e. how much "wiggle room" there has been, i.e. how much of an impact can a certain percent of undecideds have on the final outcome. This will help determine how big potential "threat" these undecideds are.
If you try to calculate this on the country level, you may not get a very precise number (but still helpful), but if these polls are also available on a state level (at least for some states), you could probably get a very precise correlation between the split of the decided voters and the later split of undecided voters.
uma,
It's the latter. You can tell from the numbers in the far right column, which show that this a proportion out of a small subset of simulations, not the whole 10,000.
news from across the pond...
UK Government has authorised a £500 Billion (trillion dollar) bank bailout.
Still think the US version will stick at 700 billion $?
intrade manipulation, another theory
Intrade also trades derivatives of intrade "stocks". They could be manipulating the Obama price to perform better on a derivative.
Okay I am going to leave the rest of you and get some sleep. The latest post is not making much sense and I am suppose to be going all over Memphis tomorrow. I have NO confidence in Mc Cain's campaign at all. They could be announcing that the teens are getting married and inviting the press corps to come spend a week filming in Alaska... Johnny Mac can buy them a house using some of the bail out money and they can get ready for the baby... what scares me and I and should be scared considering I freaked myself out by visitng at least 4 RIGHT of RIGHT sites tonight these people are really angry and they do despise Barack in a way which truly is heartbreaking. I see in him a good man who can bring the country together but these people don't want to be brought together by him. There will be no unity for the country I fear and I also worry for Barack's safety as they are pretty vicious sounding and the last few events I went to the security hardly looked at me. I had knee surgery so was 'handicapped' leg bandaged, and they essentially waved me through. No check. My first canidate was Bobby Kennedy and that heartbreak has not left me and never will. I fear for Barack and want him safe and this new hate speak scares me.
Hope that I wake up in the morning to find out this was about Lieberman or something good. I'll be here directly upon waking to see what's happening! When do the rest of you sleep? Or is it just not required.
My favorite Bradley Effect was more of a reverse Bradley, I suppose. When Huffington ran for Senate in California against Fienstein, it was not supposed to be very close. The polls showed about a 15-20 point spread.
Interestingly, the exit polls said the same thing, and all the networks called the race for Feinstein at 8:01.
In the end, it was a nailbiter of epic proportions. As I recall (and I could be off in the details) Feinstein won by less than a point.
Lots of people lied about voting for Michael Huffington, becuase he was a pig in every way...but a lot of republicans secretely liked that. They couldn't admit that they voted for him, but vote for him they did.
This year -- I can't think there are many people would are going to vote for McCain who aren't quite happy to do so, and happy to tell people they did so. McCain is not as loathsome as Huffington (quite) -- you don't need permission to vote for McCain.
Anyway, that's how I see it.
Thad
cher - obama will be fine, he can handle himself. just as he hired the best campaign staff in history he has hired good security. you were probably flagged through because you were wearing a "make love, not war" tie-dyed shirt from the sixties and peacefully smoking a medicinal doobie. not exactly intimidating!
"Checkout my piece on Youth Voter Registration. For every 100 registered voters aged 18-24, the democrats accrue a 9 vote advantage."
Please quit posting this b/s in every thread. Obama gains well over 9 votes for every 100 registrations, guaranteed. It's also annoying.
I took one for the team and went to Rat*uck Central (NoQuarter) and the 'bombshell' appears to be a cached webpage showing Obama as a member of the New Party (not sure he was a member, may have been an endorsement).
This dog probably won't hunt, as the New Party is basically a ballot-line party (get the same candidate on the ballot multiple times for different 'parties' - used to be big in New York State).
They will probably push the fact that the New Party endorsed some fringy characters and try to paint Obama with the very broad brush.
Or it could be the wedding, which is very weak sauce. Nothing like taking your 'country first' seriously...
New Party stuff has been talked about since at least Jan 2008.
If this BS is the case - It always makes me shake my head when campaigns point a finger - because they always have at least 3 pointed back at them when they do.
Hello from New Zealand. Like so many others here have become completely addicted to this site over a period of time. (You even had a plug on a national radio show today)
We (I can say that safely as our whole country seems behind Obama from polls that indicate he would win in a landslide if we could vote!) are becoming concerned about the vitriol coming from the McCain camp. It appears to have escalated with the emergence of Palin coupled with McCains decline in recent polls. On Palin, is this women for real, I mean honestly guys what the hell is with that? But I digress. I really have my hopes up (we fully GET how the US election impacts the rest of us) but also worry about the Bradley effect, and the Republicans are just so dirty and dishonest.
The more this seems to be slipping from McCains grasp, and there can be no denying this is happening, the more I worry (paranoia?) about the next rabbit out of the hat. That intrade thing was definitely weird, but I have read Nates previous on that.
I do worry about the persuadable voters and although Rove is full of it, there really seems to be conflicting views on how much this could be in play.
Seattleslide... indeed I levitated in with rainbow colors, flowers in my air and an aura of complete serenity because I was there to see Mr. Cool. I am very calm when any two polls are 50 or over. I do prefer Gallup Rass though. So if we drop under 50 I will no doubt be freaked. I wish they would just go away and have their own campaign and leave us alone !! I don't like the contact sport part of all of this. I visited Daily Kos and they are pretty worked up over this story as well. News travels fast. Johnny is so clever release a cryptic message to Politico and watch us jump.
No kidding.
If Obama wins on November 4th/5th,
1. Millions of people around the world will come out to celebrate.
2. The dollar will rally and bond prices will show abnormal returns in the days following the official proclamation.
3. The country will still face hard times but the national mood will change to hope.
If McCain nasties himself into a razor-thin win, he will govern in gridlock with an embittered Democratic Congress. Palin's inexperience in handling Capitol Hill will complicate life for McCain and consensus will be hard to reach. Dems will stubbornly insist on Pay-go and Conservative Republicans will back them. Only middle class tax cuts like Obama's will pass.
Hello New Zealand,
I lived in Hanoi for a long time so had many good friends up from there who work in Viet Nam. I'll be going back just after Barack wins. The stress of what John Mc Cain might bring out seems to be more so than with most canidates. This guy could do just about anything odd and so we wait and see. Tomorrow will come soon enough and it might just be some bright idea about rolling out his financial package for buying houses that he introduced so awkwardly in the debates in a manner that few understood including his own campaign team. The guy can't run a campaign or a presidency for sure. So we just need to stay lose and roll with the punch's.
First new poll this morning, the (fairly meaningless) Zogby tracker confirming Obama's lead is up to 4 points (48-44) from just 2 points yesterday. I expect this pattern to continue today as a full day of post debate sampling is included; a day when everyone including the conservative media called the debate for Obama and McCain's fear and hate tactics have come under criticism.
Incidentally I was overjoyed to see Obama say what I have been hoping he would say, during his ABC News interview last night. He called McCain out for engaging in personal attacks for the past week but not having the balls to say it to him in person during the debate. Obama used the words "say it to my face". Biden has also been very effective in pointing out that McCain and his retarded sidekick have created the hate filled atmosphere in which some of their supporters have thought fit to scream words like "terrorist", "liar" and "kill him". It's a matter of time before someone gets hurt and McCain will be responsible for it.
The American people can forgive most things, but not cowardice and hypocrisy.
Hey Cher & Rain33,
From outback Australia: G'day.
I completely agree with Rain's comments about how popular Obama is - certainly the Aussie Polls are at 70% plus.
There is a real perception that the USA will have "Done it's Dash" if they elect McCain. The view of America’s reputation right now is the lowest in my experience.
Bush has squandered the standing of the US across the world and undermined the image of America being the Voice of Freedom.
We all hope that the US Citizens, by voting in a filibuster proof Democrat Senate majority and by electing Obama/Biden will allow reputation of the US to be restored.
I have created a "That one"- count-down-widget to 11/4, 8 am ET. You can get it from my blog http://mimpresion.blogspot.com . You find it on the upper right corner. Click on "Get this widget" then go to "options", then to html and you will get the code. Copy it and paste it on your web or blog. Enjoy.
Didn't Gallup use Likely voters in 2004? Wouldn't that explain the low number of undecideds?
I might remember incorrectly.
Dear Senator McCain,
You are now choosing to call the likely next president of the United States a terrorist. That is un-American and borders on treason. Please stop these attacks before you give further comfort to America's enemies and further damage the prospects of President Obama being a great president that heals, unites and strengthens America. You sir, are now directly responsible for fanning the rabid flames among your supporters - the ones that chant "Terrorist!" and "Kill him!" and you should be held responsible. You are now crossing a line, which will destroy your own post-election senate career, not to mention your remaining credibility. Are you really hell-bent on using the logic that if you don't win, then at least you should tear down your opponent as much as possible? This is disgusting, dishonorable and it must stop now. You have a responsibility to reach out to your supporters and explain to them that your opponent is an honest and decent man, whith whom you may have an honest disagreement on policy. But if all you are doing is advocating a fear of "the other" and teaching these people to feel comfortable with their suspicions and hatreds, then you are worse than the worst of the segregationists or slave-owners. You have lost this election on the issues, don't try to win it on fear - that is the worst kind of Bush-Rove tactic there is. Haven't people suffered enough? Haven't people after 9/11, the anthrax attacks, Bush's Saddam countdown, a "you're on your own" society, the countless deaths of US soldiers in Iraq, job losses, health-care fears, stock-market crashes, bank bailouts and even the fear of losing their homes - haven't people had enough fear, without you having to inject it into their hopes too? What you are doing is disgusting, shameless, reckless and unforgivable - and the sad truth is, you don't even have the guts to level your accusations to Senator Obama in person, only in coded ads or speeches delivered by your running-mate. May God forgive you, because even your supporters after they have sobered up from your coded hate-speak will never forget how you ran this travesty of a campaign; how you were guilty of offering yet more fear, yet more sound-bites, yet more spin, yet more lies and distortions. You don't deserve to win - you deserve to lose in an electoral landslide; and before you, a compulsive gamler with serious personality issues, do something you regret, I urge you to step back from the precipice and finally start to follow your own slogan - country first.
Visited my fox news-loving, republican-worshiping semi-racist grandmother yesterday! She was angry about the McCain mortgage shtick, but somehow thinks Obama would be worse for the economy. I wish I could talk some sense into her, but I've tried for years with no luck, so best to not go there!
The remarks at McCain/Palin rallies scare me deeply. It's certainly not the case that all republicans are bigoted, ignorant hate-spewers, but the loudest ones are.
I am completely disgusted that they can't have the courtesy to come out and stop these people from saying this garbage. It is this kind of shit that makes me embarrassed to be an American.
I just have to breathe, everyone has to, and remember that as we move forward in time, more people will become accepting of others and bigotry will slowly fade away.
When Obama wins the election, these people will probably initially be angry, but with time will move on. And when Obama and a democratic-majority senate get this country back on track they'll get it.
The neoconservative movement is over. Republican party of today is a joke, and if they keep their neocon views, they'll keep losing in landslides by a greater margin until no one votes for them and their existence ceases to exist. They need to go back to actual conservatism and stop pandering to zealots.
Also, it really bothers me that Obamas middle name and ties to the Muslim religion are such a big deal.
First of all, I hate that we all know what religion politicians are, I don't care and neither should anyone else. I hate how little the Separation of Church and State exists in our country at this time, and I hate how much emphasis people put on politicians' religious views.
Obama is a Christian. Based on Christian views, he's more of a Christian than McCain who has the Christian morals of a goat. But the point is...Who cares? I don't care if our president is Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, or believes in Zeus. Why does this matter to so many people? And why is it a bad thing that someone is a Muslim?
Extremists are found in every religion, and Christianity certainly has their fare share of terrorist-like behavior and proselytizing.
Aha! But what if Rove just meant in absolute numbers there were more 'undecided' voters -- after all the population and voting population are both much larger now than in 1968!
Can anyone else see the irony of Karl Rove pointing to a large number of undecideds?
After all, this man has regarded undecided voters as less important than motivating the base since at least 2002, with his 48 Hours Project on the eve of the congressional elections.
Suddenly, now that the Democrats have an advantage in registration, he believes that undecided voters matter far more? Sorry, Karl, no sale. Look at the numbers in the national trackers of those who ARE decided. They're mostly over 50%. That's the crucial difference - Obama will have to lose some of his existing support AND NOT GAIN ANY UNDECIDEDS AT ALL to lose.
I must say, the particular brand of stress I am feeling is a pleasant surprise to me.
It is hard for me to understand who is really undecided in this election, the real tale of the tape will be what percentage of decided registered voters actually bother to vote.
The years with equivalent undecided voters seem to be years where there were serious third party candidacies. Undecided could then be between perot/bush sr or gore/nader.
I so wish Ron Paul had made more of an effort to be on every ballot, An extra 2% siphon of the far right voters who will end up holding thier nose and voting mccain would ease my frayed nerves.
Nate,
Okay, I admit I've become nigh-obsessed with 538.
One thing is niggling at me, though as we move away from a close race and that's the growing disconnect between your mean electoral vote pie chart and your frequency simulation histogram which is a summary of the data the mean is based on (I think).
Obviously you weren't expect this to evolve as a blowout, and using the mean when the data is as strongly skewed as it has become can be a little misleading. I think there's an easy fix, though - can you give us the median pie chart as well?
what I've picked-up (through the grapevine) is something to do w/ someone in Kenya, found some e-mails-the guy who wrote that book, The Obama Nation. It was s'posedly had them on hannity/colmes, but due to fear of overly stressing myself, couldn't bring myself to watch the program. It s'posedly will come-out today, and has to do with his(That One's) american citizenship. (more drama) Hope this helps.
~special council for the Trees...
P.S. Read the crosstabs on reuter/zog~ went from +2 to +4 overnight~Obama up by 6 in the 1st day after debate!! Poor Cindy is gonna get abused this day.
Two new Strategic Vision polls...
Pennsylvania
Obama 54, McCain 40
Georgia
McCain 50, Obama 43
Isn't this a right-leaning pollster? Not good news for The Mavrik.
The Muslim thing would make me laugh if it weren't so entrenched :) I think it mostly derives from American ignorance about Indonesia, which is often described on the news as "the world's largest Muslim country" -- a somewhat misleading description.
Indonesia does indeed have a large Muslim population... it has a very large population, and a large majority nationally identify as Muslim. But several important regions / ethnic groups are NOT majority Muslim, and Islam is not a state religion; the Indonesian constitution recognizes religious plurality, and there are five or six officially recognized religions (a very different situation from, say, Malaysia). Specifically, Islam is not taught in state schools such as the one Obama went to.
Moreover, Islam as commonly practiced in Indonesia incorporates Hindu/Buddhist and Animist elements and has a very different flavor from Middle Eastern Islam. Of course there are "fundamentalist" communities, and at different times that approach attracts more or fewer Indonesians... just like American Christianity.
Personally, I think it is an asset that Obama through his time in Indonesia knew many Muslims; he will not demonize the entire religion as so many Americans are inclined to do. Since we have dealings with many genuinely Muslim states, isn't it better to have a leader who understands something about them than one that doesn't?
More generally it is his highly cosmopolitan background that made me support him over the other Democratic candidates in the first place. Jakarta is the most diverse city in Indonesia, and Hawai'i must be the most culturally diverse state in the US. More than any other presidential candidate I can remember, Obama is in a position to relate to people from other cultures; I can't think of a more important qualification. (No, foreign travel in a military context doesn't count :p You don't get to empathize with people you are shooting at.)
Interestingly, by the way, former Bush defense secretary and neocon Paul Wolfowitz was once ambassador to Indonesia, and like Obama lived in Jakarta. (His former wife Clare, an anthropologist, went so far as to learn Javanese in addition to Indonesian, and wrote a book about the Javanese of Suriname which I reviewed years ago.) Anyway, nobody accused HIM of being a covert Muslim as far as I know; unfortunately his cross-cultural experiences don't seem to have endowed him with any extra humanity :/ He was probably too old to reap the benefits of his experiences when he first lived abroad.
Ah well, excuse me for OT rambling ;) My first post here, and since I've learned a lot of things from reading what others have posted I thought I'd put in my two cents.
The undecideds may break against Obama, they did in some primaries. Nate disagrees if you look at all primiaries, but I think the difference appears AFTER Clinton went negative (e.g. after super Tuesday).
This means we need to make up for it and bank those youth and cell phone only voters - the ground game, it is our "Obama wins" insurance.
Up 4 in Zogby tracking (Obama was up 2 yeaterday).
Some light reading from Alaska:
http://media.adn.com/smedia/2008/10/08/19/Todd_Palin_s_Subpoena_Responses_10-8-081.source.prod_affiliate.7.pdf
He states that he had been trying to get Wooten fired even before Palin became Governor, but "my concerns over Wooten were not why Monegan was reassigned".
R2K tracker: 51-41 (no change). Wednesday sample was O+12, from +8 and +9 the previous two days.
Todd Palin was had a vendetta against Wooten and was warned against his actions by the divorce court even BEFORE she was govenor. Todd Palin is, not surprisingly, lying.
"Somewhere in America, a conservative is lying"
2 trackers in, both with good nes for OBama. Looks like he is a "townhall" bounce. This is not surprising considering Maverick John's horrendous performance.
morning guys
matt said...
Two new Strategic Vision polls...
Pennsylvania
Obama 54, McCain 40
Georgia
McCain 50, Obama 43
http://www.strategicvision.biz/political/results.htm
PA is deep blue
GA is NOT a surprise
PPP VA poll out today ?
what time ?
Guy from Aus here. does anyone know why the Gallup tracker is so out of whack with the others (in a good way of course :D)? Maybe nobody knows...?
Nate, I just want to thank you for all you are doing to keep us informed. I am really appreciating this site and it was nice to see you interviewed on MSNBC.
Research 2000 tracker shows that Obama had a huge day after the 2nd debate (up 12 points) and the 3 day average remains at 10 points.
The crosstabs show something very interesting. Palin's favorability figures are tanking; now down 17 points (37/54). Even McCain is a net unfavorable now whereas both Obama and Biden are net favorable by 20 points or more.
http://www.dailykos.com/dailypoll/2008/10/09
The Strategic Vision polls are Republican sponsored although they are a perfectly reputable outfit. A 14 point lead for Obama in PA is very comforting. A 7 point deficit in Georgia simply confirms that Obama made the right call to pull resources from that state, although I do hope they make an effort in the senate race there which is close.
This could be potentially troublling. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_el_ge/voter_purges
Everything is pointing to an Obama win ... except that anything even close to 20% persuadable would concern me if I were him. Given a litany of factors (including race and any number of other unpredictables when people get "behind the curtain") --- how many people that are still "persuadable" three weeks from now can Obama reasonably expect to get. Whether you want to talk about a possible Bradley effect or something else, it feels like he'd better CLOSE the case as soon as possible.
The crosstabs show something very interesting. Palin's favorability figures are tanking; now down 17 points (37/54). Even McCain is a net unfavorable now whereas both Obama and Biden are net favorable by 20 points or more.
The fact that Palin is now a drag on the ticket was discussed seriously on countdown last night.
If we could just get those undecideds to look at those clips of angry Cindy and then watch Larry Kings interview of serene Michelle then ask them
" which of these women do you want as first lady?"
funny how stations and newspapers still put Michigan and PA as "toss ups" when Georgia has half the lead for McCain that those two do for Obama
maybe it's time to put Georgia as a toss up?
p smith,
re: Georgia - just for argument's sake, it could be debated that Georgia would be tied if Obama had done advertising and kept paid staff there. Not to say focusing on more winnable states wasn't the right decision.
And it would be SO GREAT to get that Chambliss guy sent home from the Senate.
It looks like the "big news" from the McCain campaign is that they have a new Ayers attack ad.
What idiots...
When will the mainstream media be bringing up the fact that McCain worked with Nazi sympathizers to illegally provide firearms to Nicaraguan death squads?
Obama by 4 in Zogby and by 3 in Battleground.
John;
The only thing that matters to most of America is the economy. The Ayers / Keating / Contra issues are old news that don't affect a voter's bank account.
Karl Rove, shading the truth? Say it isn't so!
For no rational reason, it's always bothered me that even if Gore and Kerry had won, the number of blue states were always greatly outnumbered by red states. So just looking at Nate's map now with all light to dark blue - that number is now 28! Let's go for two more - 30 sounds even better!
Obama takes 273 EV in the Karl Rove map.
Gore and Kerry ran their campaigns with the same failing defensive strategy and Hillary did the same in her primary: Only go after a few big states and ignore the rest of the country.
Obama's campaign has, regardless of loss or victory, played offense and widened the playing field.
This is as much of a change in national elections as Nixon's "Southern Strategy".
Charles,
I agree that the economy should be the issue, but it is ridiculous that the McCain campaign is able to play up this Ayers connection without anyone mentioning the fact that McCain worked with Nazi sympathizers to provide firearms to terrorists. That fact is much worse than any Ayers connection.
So the big news looks to be the NRA endorsing McCain...
Who didn't see that coming!
Seriously, all you concern trolls call down. You do realize that Barack never would have made it this far or even risked running (because it surely would be found out) if any of those birth certificate/Kenyan violence etc smears were true. That's exactly what they are. Smears. Smears that also, coincedentally, remind everyone that he's "different"....
The Ayers argument is already blowing up in McCain's face.
The more he ignores the economic issue, the worse his position becomes. Why throwing a drowning man a life preserver and allow the conversation to change?
Throw an anvil instead and keep talking about the economy.
That "Big News" thing? a new Ayers ad......wow lame.
so pretty much the big news is mccain running out of money?
David Iglesias (fired U.S. attorney) was on Fresh Air last night and was very interesting, especially on the topic of voter fraud investigations and the GOP pressure for election-season indictments (actual convictions didn’t seem to matter so much). He said that after reviewing the (scant) evidence, the closest his team could find to a prosecutable case of voter fraud was probably a single low-income ACORN worker who had signed up a 15-year-old kid, among others, and her motive was very simple - money. She could have cared less about partisan election outcome, said Iglesias; she was just being paid by the head for registrations. No evidence of massive fraud on view, but lots of Republican clamoring for smoking guns to wave before the populace, in hopes of keeping elderly, poor, Hispanic, and minority turnout down.
Same GOP crap, different day.
Maybe someone said this already, I didn't read ALL the comments. But notice that since '76 in years in which there was NOT an incumbent running the "unaccounted for" number was 8, 11, 8 and 8 (this year). So this year it is right in line with previous years and, statistically, below average.
No the news is bill ayers.
They're launching a ad connecting obama to ayers.
I saw the ad. Pretty effective.
Bill Ayers is not news. The key term in news is "NEW". it aint new...its actually quite old. I can't stop laughing at how dumb and anticlimactic this whole thing was.
Charles,
I think the media, not the Obama campaign, should bring up McCain's connection to Nazi sympathizers and Nicaraguan terrorists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eniG9l_7its
Speaking of associations..
Vanessa-your right
Actually, the big (hidden news) from that is that
1. The McCain camp is running out of money and are hoping cable news stations will talk about and play this ad for free
and
2. Their internals look absolutely depressing
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/08/AR2008100803523.html
The spin of defeat:
Rick Davis, McCain's campaign manager, told reporters after the debate that he still likes his candidate's situation. Better, he said, to be defending red states than having to convert blue states to win.
we are so fu**ed as it stands & where it is going
we have to see in the next couple of days how effective these ads are
even conservative trollspaper NY Daily News, is calling McCain out for running a low blow campaign.
The post will always be in the tank for McCain, no changing that.
Both suck equally just funny to see one singing a different tune
Rasmussen?
You could go read the "Rolling Stone" piece and get every disgusting detail of the proof that McCain is nothing but a self-obsessed whore for power.
Or you could just remember that he picked Sarah Palin for VP and then spent the last town hall telling us that we can't afford the risks of a President who would need on-the-job training.
McCain. Is. Lying. Scum.
PERIOD.
And MSNBC did already cover McCain - Contra
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27062761/
IMO, just as tangential as Obama - Ayres.
Say it aint so! Karl would never make anything up!
More on the Bailout We Needed?
Today's new Ras poll;
Obama 50, McSame 45
Today's new Ras poll;
Obama 50, McSame 45
what are the other polls coming out ?
I'm all for commercialization, but can we please do away with the "why is your stomach fat?" ad banner? Such a sleazy ad banner really impairs the underlying quality of your website.
I think everyone needs to be very concerned about swing states illegally removing tens of thousands of voters from the rolls. Check today's New York Times. This is horrifying.
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/projects/project_display.php?proj_identifier=2008/09/30/project_road_to_ruin
PRI’s Marketplace has had two reporters out on a road trip through the Midwest interviewing ordinary people about how the financial crisis is affecting them. (Comfortingly, the series is called The Road to Ruin.) One woman made a great point: Average, small-time investors are constantly being told not to panic, to stay calm, be patient, ride it out, blah blah blah. And yet every day the finance “experts” and the titans of Wall Street appear to be panicking their asses off, causing even more drastic losses to modest savings, retirement portfolios, etc. And of course every day Washington responds (in a panic) by throwing more public money their way.
Diageo
Obama - 47
McCain -41
greg,
Did they indicate what kind of polling Obama had lastnight?
Obama was +12 RS2000 last night and obviously had a huge night last night in the Diageo poll.
VANESSA:
No only that one third of the poll reflects the debate. Other polls show movement towards Obama.
pa john how did you get the poll early?
Vanessa,
Here's the Hotline/Diageo Poll
@noiateerickson
So, after their war against the media, McCain's campaign is now depending on this same media to take up their cause?
Don't forget that the RNCC had to take out an $8M loan yesterday - they are having a horrible fundraising year. If the RNC is already putting all its resources into McCain and they are still getting outspent 2:1 and are already pulling gimmicks like this with 4 weeks to go... they are screwed.
Rasmussen did a poll on the debate Obama won 45-29. Funny that Obama lost a point because it appears Obama had a good night last night.
I agree McCain is out of money. I live in Md and get all the ads on dc media and almost all the ads I see are Obama`s. In fact McCain may be off the air i haven`t seen an ad from him in days.
He may have given up on the state or moved the advertising out of the dc area.
If Obama is 50 or more and McCain is no more than 45, it will be a problem for McCain.
All the candidates who won election wasn´t 45% or less in the national polls.
Nate,
Hi from Wicker Park.
The Times today reported that purges of voter registrations in a significant number of states (especially swing states) appear to have violated federal law. The Times reports, further, that these purges may be affecting Democratic voter registration more than Republican (even in cases where there is little evidence of malfeasance).
I'm worried that we are entering a period of euphoria produced by ignoring the sort of collusion that influenced the last election in Ohio and the previous one in Florida. There is solid post-hoc statistical evidence, of course, for the vote rigging that occurred in those states in the previous elections. Could you perhaps develop a model that includes proxies to predict potential effects for this in the current election?
It would be useful to see, for example, a sensitivity analysis of the effects of voter registration fraud proportional to the numbers that the Times is reporting in these states today. Such an analysis could be disputed in all sorts of ways, but it might give us all a worst-case scenario. And if the poll numbers significantly differ from the actual vote numbers November 5, we might get an initial handle on where some of the answers for the difference might lie.
Joel;
I would think that advertising targeting N. Va would still be part of the campaign, even if it is "communist country" according to McCain's brother.
So movement in the trackers so far:
DailyKos same (but internals point to Obama)
Zogby for Obama
Ras (slightly) for McCain
Battleground (slightly) for McCain
Hotline (big) for Obama
Gallup really can go nowhere but down for Obama
Decent national polling day.
that new york times voter purge story is absolutely terrifying.
Does it strike anyone else as odd that 2004, the year with supposedly the fewest "persuadables," was also a year with some pretty wild shifting in the polls in the last few weeks before the election?
According to electoral-vote.com:
10/5/04: Bush 296, Kerry 238
10/8/04: Kerry 280, Bush 239
10/13/04: Bush 291, Kerry 228
10/19/04: Kerry 294, Bush 247
10/25/04: Bush 285, Kerry 247
11/1/04: Kerry 298, Bush 231
11/2/04 (election day): Kerry 262, Bush 261
Final EV count: Bush 286, Kerry 252
Looks to me as if some people were getting "persuaded" of something.
McCain is now running the most dishonorable and cowardly election campaign in American political history. Not only has he stooped to putting his own wife on the stand to promulgate these lies, he has given up even trying to address the economic crisis.
I will put it bluntly. If America buys the lies and votes for this disgraceful cunt, then it will deserve everything it has coming to it.
I happen to believe that the GOP have expended the last remnants of trust with the American public and that this last desperate attempt by McCain to cloud the issues will result in a landslide and the death of his political reputation.
quadrivium, the RCP electoral map was better.
Sean: You must see the headline on Slate.
It will be a fraun in almost one of the swing states.
If all the new voters vote without problems, Obama will win all the swing states.
I think it will be a fraud, and benefits McCain.
From Rasmussen:
The race remains quite stable--for the past fourteen days, Obama’s support has ranged from 50% to 52% every day while McCain has been at 44% of 45%
I think he's indicating that nothing monumental is happening inside his poll - at least not yet.
Rasmussen
Obama- 50
McCain - 45
"The Times today reported that purges of voter registrations in a significant number of states (especially swing states) appear to have violated federal law".
And the terrible fraud machine in the stole election in Ohio 2004?.
No, it respect the law.
The 20 EV in Ohio was stolen.
It’s occurred to me that McCain is trying to please everyone with his campaign. You saw it when McCain refused to prioritize Energy, entitlements, and health care, you see it when you look at his all of the above energy plan, and you see it now with this 300 billion dollar bail out. He’s now screaming I’m a better socialist than Obama now.
It might work. As a Dem I can see that this guy will be a huge upgrade of Bush (it won’t change my vote but it’s relieving to see that). The only problem is that a jack of all trades is a master of none.
Obama is leaning indies by 7. (Rasmussen).
Jonathan Martin changed the lede on the Politico. It had referenced the "News" but now it's on to something else.
He must feel a bit had.
Chun,
Don't be fooled. McCain is NOT a Jack of all trades. He is now a senile, willing puppet of the GOP establishment who will let them rule the country. He WILL continue the past eight years of imperialism that we have suffered through.
Does anyone have any idea what the Obama campaign is projecting on how undecideds will break? Last I heard they projected something like seventy percent will break for McCain.
joel,
I thimk Rasmussen has a problem (again). They do, as you know adjust data to party affiliation. For this purpose they use a 3 week span ad hoc survey. It is quite possible, that after the debate, they have found to many self declared democrats in their sample. They so adjusted because their model assumed the size of the polled democrat population was looking just to large. Diageo, which does not adjust to party affiliation, has indeed perceived a significant post debate bounce. Gallup does not adjust and, I believe, will show a bounce.
Cora, this Rass tracking includes only the night with the debate.
Friday and Saturday trackings are post debate.
I have a technical question about this site. There are times when I am on the blog when I stop getting updated posts. I know sometimes there is the link to new posts and when I click it I get them. But yesterday I could not get newer posts and there was not new post to click on. I hope one of you youngens can help me out.
McCain is a 'deuce' of all trades.
@Nam Vet
Click on "Post Comment" to find the navigation controls to see the other posts.
Dario,
I assume this tracker includes 2 predebate days and 1 with significant post-debate numbers.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
they confirm it
Nam Vet Joe,
Do you mean when you're reading comments? If so, I've been having that problem too. Once the post hits 200 comments, it stops showing me more. However, clicking on "Post comment" takes me to a window where I can look at all of them.
Dario,
to be clear. I think one day of post debate data is sufficient to produce a visible bounce in the tracker (if not adjusted)
Think I get it. I should be doing my reading in the post comment window. Thanks.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_el_ge/voter_purges
If this plays out to be the difference, then I don't know what to say.
@nam vet joe -
You got it Joe. When the post count gets over 200, at the bottom and top of the list of comments there will be navigation to see "Newer" and "Older" posts.
If you see all the polls in RCP averages, McCain´s high number is 46% (Democracy Corps).
You can´t win if your media is less than 45%.
Nam Vet Joe,
Everyone has the same problem. You can only see comments after 200 if you click on "Post a Comment" at the bottom and then just read them from there. It's a small window view.
Another option: Below the red "Post a Comment" is some wording that says Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom) If you click on you will also be able to see all the new comments after 200 AND be able to see them in a full screen format.
Quadrivium said...
Does it strike anyone else as odd that 2004, the year with supposedly the fewest "persuadables," was also a year with some pretty wild shifting in the polls in the last few weeks before the election?
According to electoral-vote.com:
...
EVs model is highly sensitive to whatever the latest poll for some state is that comes out - regardless of the history of the polling company and margin of error, and their 'toss up' category was smaller than the margin of error - so states would swing back and forth constantly on what was really just statistical noise.
If Nate had been around in 2004, I'm guessing his #s would have been quite steady.
eric,
I think the obama campaign is on it.
"Antmatic said...
Gallup really can go nowhere but down for Obama"
Not true, i expect it to hold even or even go up.
The three prior days Gallup said they polled a double digit lead for Obama.
This will be the post debate polling day, which the concensus is Obama won the debate.
I think we might see Obama gain a point or hold even in Gallup. Its unlikely he will come down post debate since the previous two days of polling in the three day average will have been +10 or more
Check out Michael Kinsley's report about McCain going apeshit at a gambling site it PR.
Yikes!
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-09/john-mccain-shooting-craps-pissed-off/
If you want a warning about voter suppression listen to NPR's Fresh Air. Scary the lengths they'll go to
We should be so lucky...
i suspect that the race tightened a bit on debate day in some of the trackers because people were expecting a strong McCain performance, which brought them down a bit.
I expect more movement back towards obama, and that once the day of the debate rolls off, we might see many polls hovering around +8 or more for obama.
does ANYONE know of any state polls coming out today?
Yesterday was so slow, I'm hoping for a bit more activity today
I may get an ulcer from this campaign!! My wife and I are suffering Obama Drama disease.
Every time I see a poll drop for Obama I take 2 TUMS send in $50 to Obama.
My wife suffers from the same disease. So far I have given $600 and my wife has given $400. We both proudly wear our Obama Buttons and don’t leave the house without them.
If McCain wins this election, the US and the world loses and I believe will suffer for decades.
My wife and I are life long Republicans. I worked as a volunteer for Barry Goldwater while in college in the 60s and had been a Republican until 6 months ago.
We live in constant fear that Obama will be assassinated by a right wing Republican nut. They are now screaming “KILL HIM; OFF WITH HIS HEAD, TERRORIST” about Obama at Republican rallies. Yet McCain and party don’t condemn it at the rallies or even later. They only say that it is unacceptable while they are inciting it. I am ashamed I was ever a Republican.
I hope Nate becomes the most respected poll analyzer in the world because he was on spot about the election.
I can’t imagine how the rest of the world is dealing with the election. At least I can do something about it. All they can do is take some TUMS or maybe go black out drunk until November.
I heard the Fresh Air piece yesterday. That is why I think it is important for the young voters to get out and vote this year. The numbers for young voters sound terrific but in the past they have always fallen short when it comes to getting to the polls. I have a rule in my house. When my 23 year old daughter brings home a friend---they are immediately asked are you registered---if not its over to the computer and register on line. I tell them I don't care who you vote for---but vote.
uma said
>As much as I want more certainty about an Obama win, I feel it is better to have some level of uncertainty in order to keep the NRC and the right-wing 527's spending their money on McCain rather than on congressional/senatorial races.
I believe Obama will win, and I'd like to see as big a Democratic majority in congress (maybe even 60+ in the Senate) to allow him to push thru his initiatives.
Yeah! One party state! Screw checks and balances! How can that go wrong? I can't believe anybody would want that. I'm not a fan of the closed two party system to begin with, but has nobody noticed that presidencies are more successful when they have a congress that is the other party to keep the executive branch in line? Reagan, Clinton, both had opposition from the legislative branch. Bush, Carter (I love him but he was a crappy president), they both had a legislature that was their own party. Not to mention, while this site says Obama will get a big win in the electoral college, he's still expected to get just a 5% edge in the popular vote. Doesn't the other half of the country deserve to be represented? That's not going to happen with a Democratic president and an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress.
A few other things to say...
I live in Virginia, and I'm glad Virginia will be competitive. Texas and California are the two biggest states in the country yet they don't get much of a say in the election. And that's good. They're so full of extremists that their close-mindedness keeps them out of it. However, what I don't like is that Virginia's competitiveness is largely a result of yankees moving down here to northern VA. I saw an article a few months ago saying VA might vote Democrat, but as a mid-atlantic state, not a Southern state. I about threw up. I hate that.
Another thing, even if you're voting for Obama, why do you have to dis McCain so much. Even if he loses, he's still an American hero, from being a POW in Nam to being one of the rare true statesmen who's loyalty is to his country, not his party.
markedman - PPP Virginia poll will be out today. Otherwise, your guess is as good as mine.
I agree with war hussein obama; the Gallup number has a good shot at staying level or jumping today. The R2000 tracker jumped on last night's polls from +9 Mon and +8 Tue to +12 on Wed, and I think some of that is debate-related since Wed's numbers were the first post-debate tranche. I'd expect to see Gallup stay at +11 today and possibly rise even higher tomorrow.
Interesting day in the trackers, so far...
Ras and Battleground so slight movement towards McCain but Ras has both candidates within their ranges of the past two weeks; Battleground is just weird.
Zogby, R2K and Hotline all show movement towards Obama. O apparently had a HUGE night in Hotline and a fairly good night in R2K's. Zogby is all just weird.
PPP Virginia
O:51
M:43
I lost sleep because John Mc Cain has a new ad? I loathe fox but put it on for an update... they are talking of the new Mc Cain Ad and thinking that RCP movement is showing the race get much closer.
Question for Nate, in case he skims these comments and is looking for something to address:
According to John Martin's blog on politico, McCain is once again going back to Iowa today, despite numerous polls showing this is probably a waste of time. Mike DuHalme, a campaign manager,say his internal polling shows Iowa to be more competitive than other polls suggest.
How does internal campaign polling differ from polling by media outlets that we have access to? Why would a candidate be more inclined to trust his or her own data rather than 5-6 media organizations? Do internal polls take more risks with their demographics, for example making more interesting bets on voter turnout or composition that major media polls would not be able to justify?
The fact that Obama was ahead by double digits in the last three polling days at Gallup is an indication that his lead will go down today, not up, since his real lead is probably less than double digits even after the debate.
Vanessa said...
eric,
I think the obama campaign is on it.
I hear you. Normally you are the paranoid one. Here's the thing when OBama was like 23/24 yrs old he was a community organizer. He was great at the organizing part, not as good as cutting through the BS bureacratic crap. It was very hard to overcome the dysfunction of government, so he quit. He's learned al ot in the last 20 or so years, but I guess what I'm saying is the people he's surrounded himself with know how to rally people for a cause. Voter registration, passion for a candidacy, etc. They're less skilled at overcoming evil, by-any-means-necessary law-breaking scoundrels that will destroy the voting process and then claim everything was cool knowing that there's no way what the numbers say on November 4th will be overturned in america. The RepubliCONs can lie, cheat, and steal and never suffer consequences for it. Even if they have a patsy or 2 that go to jail for it, it'll have been worth it to them. Some of this was whining and unjustified and not the difference-maker, but Willie Horton/Dukakis 1988, Punch-Ballot Florida in Dade and Broward Gore 2000, Swift Boat/ Ohio BS Kerry 2004. The Pubs always find a way to be just corrupt enough to win and suffer no consequences for it. I voted in the Texas caucus in the Dem primary. I've never in my entire life seen anything more DYSfunctioal! This country has no idea what they're doing with regards to running elections. NONE!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_el_ge/voter_purges
The link above is the scariest thing I've seen!
Consider the VA polls. Consider Decideds% as McCain% + Obama%.
Over time and barring game changing gaffes, one could argue that one might see that number increase over time. (People have gotten in the kids in the school routine and can now pay attention and decide kind of thing.) So this might explain prior to 9/14 polls which have too few decides: PPP 7/19, InsideAd 8/12, CNU VA 9/12, and NatJourn 9/13. (p-chart method previously described.) But if one accepts this explanation that there has been a "firming" up of the electorate (which is reasonable), then those polls before 9/14 really ought not to be included.
Nonetheless Rasm 10/5
and Rasm 9/21 really have too many decideds. And Suffolk 10/4 has too few decides. And depending upon whether you buy the above argument that there has been a "firming" of the number of decideds% then the MasonDixon 9/20 also has too few decides%.
What this suggests to me is A) that the polling in VA unfortunately is suspect and B) that the whole "rating" of pollsters is more voodoo than science (sorry) and you'd be better off not "weighting" at all.
Even the weighting by time is suspect - either there is a firming of opinion in which case you need a method to discern that (and you drop everything before that change) or you just muddle through relying upon the wisdom of the masses.
Or put another way, notwithstanding wishes to the contrary, VA is a toss-up.
I think you take a look at other states, I believe that this kind of analysis bears out the same problem that decideds% is not statistically stable which suggests a fluidity not really accounted for in the current model. (So far as we can understand what Nate is doing because he doesn't publish the actual regression tables!)
eric it is what it is.
I just spent a night drugged on nyquil because of some dumb ad the McCain campaign teased on today.
The best I can do is give money and volunteer.
BEST line I heard from the Obama camp in a long time and now it is being picked up in a new column today by George Will of all people:
- McCain is acting like an angry man, flailing his arms and voice all over the place, in desperation and anger, much like Jesse Jackson!!
Is that a great line or what??
McCain, in some ways = Jesse Jackson
Karlo:
I am not Nate and I am not as smart as he is but these are my thoughts on McCain going to Iowa:
They HAVE to show offense somewhere. For whatever reason, they have chosen IA and PA as the states they are going to make their offensive moves in, despite all public evidence showing they don't have a prayer there.
It is possible their internals show a tighter race or show that Obama's support isn't as strong (completely reasonable when you look at the past elections). It is also possible that the McCain campaign is lying so that they have a justifiable reason to be on the offense in states that they don't have a prayer of winning.
At this point, they can't pull out of either IA or PA; they have invested too much time and money and coming on the heels of their MI pullout, would seem like a complete capitulation.
Re: PPP Virginia +8 (O 51, M 43)
Does RCP recognize PPP in their state-by-state averages? If so, that means it will push Obama over the 50.0% avg mark in VA, as well as over the 5.0% "leaning" threshold for the state. Meaning they'd either: have to wait until another VA poll came out for today hoping it would be below 5% diff for O's average before publishing the PPP; or finally push Obama's total over the 270 mark on its site.
Does RCP recognize PPP in their state-by-state averages?
They have the recent PPP OH poll included in the average there, and have included PPP's VA polls in the past, so it'd be inconsistent for them to leave this one out.
I thought RCP said yesterday that they would be droppping PPP from it's polling---considered a poll tied to a party.
Oh, and here are your pulled-right-out-of-the-air Tybalt predictions for election night (with a big assist from Sept/Oct polling numbers)
EC
Obama 364
McCain 174
(Obama wins 52.5% of the popular vote. He wins every blue and white state on the board except Missouri. Or maybe he wins Mizzou and loses Indiana. Either way, it's 364-174... heh.)
Senate
Democrats 56 (+2 for Bernie & Joe)
Republicans 42
(Ds take OR, MN, NC, CO, NM, NH, and VA... Begich is going to lose AK, Wicker buries Musgrove in MS.)
House
Democrats 255
Republicans 180
(That would be a net +20 for the Democrats. This is conservative because there are easily another 4-8 Dem House campaigns out there that are poised to ride the 7-point Obama win into Congress; I just don't know who they are.)
At this point, it looks very possible that for the second straight election, the Dems pay pitch a shutout; no sitting Democrats losing. That would be amazing and would mean, I believe, that no D-held seat in Congress had been lost to the Republicans in six years.
Four full years, sorry. Not six.
John, RCP recognizes PPP in their averages, but will stop doing so tomorrow, since they consider PPP to be Dem-affiliated. After Oct. 10 they have said they will not include party-affiliated pollsters in their averages. So - barring other more positive news for McCain in Virginia or a shift elsewhere on the map, you would think that this would put Obama over the 270 mark on RCP.
Tbird9091...I live in Virginia, and I'm glad Virginia will be competitive. Texas and California are the two biggest states in the country yet they don't get much of a say in the election. And that's good. They're so full of extremists that their close-mindedness keeps them out of it.
I'm in Texas and would be considered moderate in California, but am a hardcore liberal being that I'm in Texas. I don't like my vote being worthless.
Also, think of this regarding Virginia. This site is called 538.com for 538 electoral votes. 538 comes from 435 House members, 100 Senators and 3 electoral votes for DC. The 3 electoral votes for DC fascinates me. I don't know the story behind the legislation, but it makes perfect sense to me as a fair compromise to give DC 3. Each small state gets 2 Senators for equal representation in the Senate, but the House is divvied up based on population (of cours). DC is not a state, but you completely disenfranchise everyone there if you don't give them a vote. This would seem silly and unfair. Give them 1 electoral vote? That's not fair when South Dakota and Wyoming get 3 th Dems would argue. Very small population in DC, but very, very heavy Democrat. If you split DC up into Maryland and Virgnia, you'd have a big problem for the Republicans. I most elections, Virginia would go from Red to Pink or Pink to Purple or maybe even Pink to Blue. The turnout in DC is about 85% Dem. It would shift a whole state and it's 13 or 14 electoral votes from Red to Blue. The Pubs couldn't let this happen. for those in DC that might be considered Marylanders, it just make the state even more Dark Blue and unflippable. So, 3 electoral votes for DC, a fair compromise, but fascinating. In the end, your frustration with Virginia becoming purple because of "Northerners" rings hollow to me for the two reasons above. A) I'm a Dem in a Red state and have been disenfranchised my whole life and B) Perhaps the most logical place for DC voters to be considered from is Virginia, that would paint the Red state Blue in many elections.
Are internals available for the Virginia PPP poll? I'd be interested in seeing their party break-down. VA doesn't do registration by party, so pollsters are essentially coming up with their own estimates on party ID, and I'm afraid some of these polls are being too generous to the Democrats.
Another thing, even if you're voting for Obama, why do you have to dis McCain so much. Even if he loses, he's still an American hero, from being a POW in Nam to being one of the rare true statesmen who's loyalty is to his country, not his party.
Sorry but i am going to have to call bullshit on this. evidently you haven't been paying close attention to the last month or so of the campaign or fully educated yourself on mccains biography.
well I will partly agree on one thing, he is not loyal to his party.Every thing is about him much like bush , loyality runs one way toward them
Here's the PPP for Virginia today internals
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_VA_1009535.pdf
VA is blue
Real Joe - yup - from those internals it looks real blue.
As a Nam vet I have very strong feelings about McCain being a hero.Getting shot down and spending time in a POW camp is a harrowing and I am sure frightning experience. It does not make you a hero. A hero is someone who does something altruistic by choice. However I know for myself that spending a year in Viet Nam although harrowing and frightning was not heroic in anyway.
Lastly, his current campaign tactics of guilt by association and allowing speakers to emphasize Obama's middle name, and not saying anything when people are yelling out "kill him" shows the true character of the man
Thanks, mc9cain!
Those look really, really good for Obama.
Keep up the good work! This kind of in-depth historical analysis is why I keep coming to your blog!
new thread
Palin steps down and Rove steps up... Sounds crazy, but "what would a MAVERICK do?"
I havw grave doubts about Begich's chances against Stevens in Alaska.
Nobody would want to admit to voting for Stevens who is up to his neck in sleaze. However it has to be admitted that thanks to Stevens Alaska is swimming in pork.
This is an exact equivelent of the UK "Shy Tory" effect. People speak their hearts, but vote their pockets.
For the same reason I suspect Obama is under polling. There must be a lot of rednecks who really don't want to to be seen voting for a wimp and a n***er, but have a fairly good idea what will happen to the economy under McCain.
If Any of you feel like donating for the cause, I honestly doubt that Obama needs it, but Begich does. Begich can win, but it is going to be tough. http://www.begich.com
Why would anyone with half a brain trust the opinions of Karl Rove, the most mendacious and devious political partisan currently breathing.
As a Brit who's recently moved to the US,I am completely mesmerised by this election even though I can't vote.
While there are some things which are great about the US system - the debates are unequivocally A GOOD THING - I can't believe the stuff I'm hearing about the difficulty of voter registration here and the attendant potential for fraud or disenfranchisement.
For comparison, here's how it works in the UK.
A list of eligible voters, the Electoral Roll, is maintained by the local councils. These are small demographic units (smaller than US counties) and affiliated by party. However maintaining the Roll is part of their civic responsibilities.
Every year a form is delivered to each household by the council asking for the names of all eligible voters in the household. You basically state the names of everyone in the house who is a British, Commonwealth or European Union citizen (the latter are eligible to vote in certain elections) and over 18. One person then signs the form confirming that the information is true and complete. This only becomes relevant if fraud is suspected later. Then you return the form in the post to the council in a prepaid envelope, where it is checked against previous electoral rolls.
If your household doesn't appear on the register in the days before the registration deadline, you will probably be visited by party activists reminding you to register. Because at no stage is party affiliation mentioned it is in the interests of all parties - the council, the political parties and the household to make sure the register is as good as it can be.
Obviously there is potential for some very small-scale fraud at this stage - you do sometimes hear of dead men walking - but it would be very difficult to coordinate a very widespread fraud at this stage.
Conversely because the process is so simple, requires so little information and because the information is only used for voting purposes (and by credit agencies for credit purposes)there is widespread enfranchisement. You can also apply for a postal vote if you want.
A few days before polling day, the council sends every registered person in the house hold a polling card. This speeds up being processed but is not necessary to vote.
On voting day, everyone goes to a polling station to vote. These are usually set up in a local school or library or community center and there are lots of them. Many people can walk to their local polling station or else it's a short car journey away. All polling stations are open from 7 am to 10pm, so convenient for most people. Because there are so many polling stations, I've never had to form a line to vote.
At the polling station,you present your polling card and a paid volunteer ticks you off the register. If you forget your card you just have to tell them your name and address and they'll find you, it just takes a bit longer. No photo ID, no matching signatures, nothing. Again there is some potential for very small scale fraud, ie maybe I could impersonate someone else in my household, but very difficult to organise fraud on a large scale. Again no party affiliation is given, so there is no incentive to suppress only certain votes.
I am then given a ballot paper with all the names and parties of the candidates in each election. There is a box next to each name and nothing else. I then put a cross in the box next to my candidates name. More than one cross or anything else written on the paper then your vote is spoiled. I then fold the paper in half and put it manually in the ballot box. No machines, no chads, no computers (though there is currently some experimentation with electronic machines and electronic counting to speed up the process). The votes are then counted manually by volunteers on the night of the election. Recounts are also manual (even with electronic machines).
I lived in the UK for 40-odd years and have never heard of widespread voter fraud or suppression.
This seems the most appropriate place to put this question. Nate, your site and statistical analysis are fabulous. I had a great time explaining some of the details to my 10 year old daughter last night.
Anyway, my question is related to the article in the NY Times about voter rolls being "scrubbed". Do you have any idea how this could affect voting predictions based on polls ? Is there any way to estimate how many of the new voters who think they are registered might discover on Nov 4th that they actually are not ?
thanks !
Sheila
According to Chuck Todd (NBC's equivalent of Nate), both the Obama and McCain campaigns believe that the undecideds in the final polls will break 70% in favor of McCain.
That is similar to what happened in the primaries after March 1.
The exit polls can be expected to be off again this year like in 2004because in the primaries after March 1, Hillary did bettter than the election day exit polls indicated in all states but IN and maybe one other (NC or OR).
Of the trackers, Hotline moved big to Obama today while Rasmussen and Battleground moved slightly away from Obama. Gallup stayed the same with an Obama lead twice the size of Rasmussen's for some reason.
Newsflash to POLL JUNKIES: ARG just put up polls for many states -- WV and MN are most interesting.
Nate has an ARG link on the left side of the homepage.
These are great results for ME!
Do you incorporate county-level polls, like these?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14556.html
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