10.04.2008

Today's Polls, 10/4

With the first set of tracking polls out to incorporate at least one full day of post-debate interviewing, there is no indication that John McCain and Sarah Palin have made progress in closing their gap with Barack Obama. In fact, Obama ticked upward in three of the four national tracking polls that published today, although he lost a point in Rasmussen. In addition, Ipsos/McClatchy has come out with a poll showing that the debate moved undecideds slightly toward the Obama ticket, confirming the results of most of the snap polling conducted on Thursday evening.

Beyond that, this is the slowest polling day that we've had in some time. The only fresh state poll out is in Maine, and it's actually a pretty good one for John McCain: Rasmussen has him trailing there by just 5 points, little changed from their survey two weeks ago that had him down 4. Although several recent polls have shown Maine tightening, our model will need additional evidence before it concludes that Maine is any sort of toss-up state, as Obama's polling has been strong there all year and as things are going well for him in the Northeast region (as they usually do for a Democrat). Nevertheless, Maine is a very cheap state to and compete in, so our return-on-investment index likes it as a long-shot play; the McCain campaign's decision to commit resources there looks wise.

Finally, just a couple of bits of housekeeping. Firstly, we have corrected the results from the Elon Poll in North Carolina that we published yesterday. We had originally listed the poll as showing a 2-point Obama lead; however, these were the results of a question asking which candidate would handle the economy better, and not the Presidential horse race. The horse race numbers are there, but require a bit of digging to find; they show a virtual dead heat (Obama 38.9, McCain 38.8).

Also, our poll detail chart will now list state tracking polls in a different way. Instead of seeing this:



...that is, each day's results from a tracking poll listed individually (but with very small weightings because few new interviews are conducted each day), you will instead see this:



...that is, a weighted average of the tracking poll's results consolidated onto one line (and highlighted in a salmon color).

This is purely a cosmetic/presentation issue; behind the scenes, our model will continue to treat each day's results from a tracking poll as a separate data point. But it gets very messy to show things to you this way.

206 comments

Fwiffo said...

I thought Obama would peak in the trackers soon, but he just keeps improving. No wonder the McCain campaign is flailing out aimlessly (and helplessly).

-- Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin --

realistxxx said...

Palin throws a bomb today:

Says Obama pals around with terrorists (Ayers).

Pretty vile accusation.

Her negatives were already trending upward. If she keeps hitting like this the sky is the limit.

Justin said...

Dido fwiffo
I'm not going to complain but I thought these numbers would taper down but they keep improving/staying right where they are...amazing

Anyone have any good commentary on Palin's remark that Obama pal's around with terrorists? My take would be most people are going to see through this. People are more concerned about what is going on with their 401k's than someone Obama has minimal ties to (who was 8 yrs old when Ayre's came into the media pic)

Mike said...

This is an amazing set of polls!










For John McCain!

Cry more libs, Obama is FINISHED, just like the ad ("Is Obama FINISHED?") below me on the screen says!

Mathis said...

Oh wow. Obama went from +4 in PA to +12 in one week. I wonder when McCain will pull out of PA? When will he pull out of OH? FL? IN? NC? CO? NM? VA?

Seth said...

Do you predict any sort of change to polls after this new "aggressive approach" the McCain campaign is taking? Palin's comment today about Ayers nearly drove me up the wall - if I wasn't voting for Obama because I support his policy decisions, I would vote against McCain for telling such a deliberate lie. What sort of steps is the Obama campaign taking to counter this? How are the media and pollsters handling it?

kevin626 said...

6 republican held senate seats are now trending Democratic. NC looks pretty good as well.

striatic said...

The McCain campaign doesn't get it.

Economy, Economy Economy, Economy!

Every minute they spend talking about Ayers, is a minute where they're demonstrating how they're out of touch with *the* issue of this election.

The fact that they think that since the bailout passed they can run on other issues shows their seemingly increasing political tone-deafness.

Citizens understand that the bailout represented only a slim portion of the economy issue. The beginning of the beginning, not an ending.

Matthew said...

I am curious to see whether the Sarah Palin "palin around with terrorists" comments will have a bounce, even a dead-cat bounce.

I did guess a few days ago that McCain/Plain would try something dramatic, I just didn't know they would go this far.

There is a pattern: when McCain is falling behind, instead of trying to get back into a good position by steady campaigning, he gambles.

Right after the primaries ended: "The One" and "Celebrity", give him a brief bounce, but end up seeming silly.

Right after the Democratic convention: nominating Sarah Palin. Gives him a good boost, but ends up looking silly.

Financial meltdown: suspends his campaign, tries to call off the debate. Not even a temporary bounce for this.

Falls behind in several states: Goes on the extremely negative attack. Results remain to be seen.

What is sad about this for McCain is that he blew his "elder statesmen" role, and he could have probably closed the gap with Obama by plugging at it. He could have chosen a more experienced, moderate running mate, and he wouldn't have gotten the big bounce...but by chipping away at Obama, he could be in an almost-even position now. But I guess McCain is a bit of a gambler, he wants to go for the dramatic fix.

PorridgeGun said...

Florida School Teacher: CHANGE = Come Help A Nigger Get Elected

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/10/04/fl-teacher-change-come-help-a-nier-get-elected/




Won't be long till this redneck racist piece of shit has a job at McCain/Palin '08.

Mathis said...

The fact that they are using the Ayers powder now means they are in trouble. Good to talk about it and get it out of the national discourse sooner rather than later. Plus, it only emboldens the press to go after Palin's ties to the AIP, and McCain's association with G. Gordon Liddy. Oh, and who was that other guy? What his name? Keating something? Much more damaging to McCain than Ayers or Rezko will ultimately be to Obama.

brown said...

Can there really be anyone out there who hasn't heard the Ayers stuff already? O was even running ads against it several weeks (months?) ago. And who would be paying attention to Palin that isn't already voting for McCain?

On a side note, if O breaks 50% in the national election, he'll be the first Democrat to do so in 32 years. If that's what you get for nominating "the most liberal member of the Senate," maybe the party should pay more attention to its liberal wing.

mc9cain said...

InTrade has some weird stuff going on again. Some people REALLY don't want him to hit 70. I have no clue as to how this could be manipulated or if it is but it sure looks odd...

TBender said...

TPM points out the counter to Ayers:

Todd Palin, AIP member.

The governor has an association to an Alaska successionist whose party ties lead to a man who hates America more than Ayers or Wright.

They really don't want to go there, do they?

eve said...

Since the only people who think Palin is credible after the Couric interviews and the debate are republicans (and certainly not all of them), I doubt that Palin's lies for McCain will matter much.

mdf1960 said...

Seriously fishing for one electoral vote in Maine seems really desperate.

Bull Schmitt said...

At the rate McCain is pulling out of states, in three weeks he may end up right back where he started. In the Panama Canal Zone.

striatic said...

McCain will only continue to avoid the economy. He has no clue how to run on it, and his party is split in two over the issue.

Palin totally ducked the economic questions during her debate, trying to change the subject to oil.

There's a reason for that. the republicans have no position and thus need desperately to change the subject. But that's impossible because the economic problems are starting to hit people in the wallet. it is the most REAL issue to people and trying to distract people with invented terrorist baloney isn't going to work.

it also show a focus on the PAST, the vietnam era, that people just don't want to hear. this election is about the future and the old partisan playbook with all the negative sniping just isn't going to work.

PorridgeGun said...

With Palin's vile remarks today, and this knuckledragging racist above, America's ugly face is once again beginning to rear it's head.


The World is Watching!

seattleslide said...

Nate -

You had said earlier that Obama would win in the case of a tie. If I'm not mistaken, the 12th Amendment states that rather than an open vote by the House of Representatives, each state's delegation gets one vote. Even though the Dems will control the House, I believe the GOP controls the majority of states. Wouldn't this mean McCain would be the favorite in the case of a tie?

M.O

Ed said...

Jim Himes (D), running for CT's 4th Congressional District is running an attack ad to unseat Chris Shays (the last Republican from New England in the House!) repeating a recording of Shay's saying "the economy is fundamentally sound", while showing images of houses in foreclosure. I wonder if Obama will do something similar with McCain.

Michael said...

TBender posted:

"They really don't want to go there, do they?"

The McCain campaign has already proven that they will go after Obama with everything including outright lies. So yes, they do want to go there. And the Obama campaign only needs to respond with truths.

RoseAnn said...

What are your thoughts about his announcing that he is leaving michigan - why would he announce that and not just quietly pull back? i am suspicious?? !!

Michael said...

Seattleslide posted:

"I believe the GOP controls the majority of states"

(1) Why don't you check that?
(2) More importantly, what's the likelihood that they will after the elections?

eve said...

Don't most voters just glaze over at the name Ayers? Voters under 50 don't care what happened in the 60's. And those over 50 don't remember Ayers and don't care about this trivia nonsense.

They care about their jobs and savings and the equity in their homes.

Matt W said...

It is not just that the McCain campaign is trying to change the subject from the economy, but they come right out and say... We are trying to change the subject from the economy!
They must think the american people are stupid...

tomthress said...

"You had said earlier that Obama would win in the case of a tie. If I'm not mistaken, the 12th Amendment states that rather than an open vote by the House of Representatives, each state's delegation gets one vote. Even though the Dems will control the House, I believe the GOP controls the majority of states. Wouldn't this mean McCain would be the favorite in the case of a tie?"

This comes up every week or two here. You are correct - the House vote is by state delegation. But the Dems currently hold a majority of state delegations - either 26 or 27 (despite it coming up every week or two, I don't remember every detail). It's also the NEW Congress that would vote, so this is all less certain, as some state delegations may switch hands in the upcoming election.

Under current trends, of course, this would just make Congress more Democratic. Then again, under current trends the odds of a tie vote are pretty damn small anyway.

Jordan said...

It doesn't surprise me that Ayers has been brought up. After all McCain's campaign manager said this election "is not going to be about the issues"

McCain realizes he is on the wrong side of just about every issue. McCain often criticizes Obama for his willingness to lose a war in order to win the election. But it is McCain who will do ANYTHING to win, including destroying his reputation as a decent politician.

McCain can bring up Ayers, and Rev. Wright and Rezko, but the fact of the matter is this race is moving in Obama's direction and moving quickly. People are getting more and more comfortable with Obama in the oval office. They connect with Obama because he talks about the issues facing the middle class. Meanwhile McCain is searching for the next political stunt to take the focus away from the fact he is GWB's third term.

TBender said...

Good point Michael.

I just want to see Governor Palin defend her "association" with her husband.

Michael said...

Eve, I think a lot of people care about what Ayers did. I just don't see any evidence that it will change the results of this election. I will say that if I thought for one second that Obama supported what the Weathermen did, I would not vote for him. But he clearly does not in any way condone what they did.

phil said...

A typo in the pie chart graphic in the left column: it's still labeled 10/3/2008, even though the numbers match the map in the right hand column.

Snax said...

McCain & 527s were running Ayers/Rezko/Wright ads in Michigan all last month, and the result? Even low-information voters can smell the desperation and fear.

Wesley said...

As much/little dirt as McCain and Palin might have on them. I really hope Obama can continue to run a positive campaign. The several attack ads he ran made me cringe and realize that his positive (and yes, sometimes corny) hope campaign is much classier.

LP said...

seattleslide,

Democrats control more state delegations and will probably have even more after this year's elections.

Adam said...

Pure panic play. Why they think something will work that didn't in the primaries, when conditions are now much worse, is baffling to me. I guess there are no good options for them and so every move is an effort to "shake things up". How they can't realize how erratic and uncomfortable that makes people feel with them is shocking.

Matt W said...

Does anyone really believe that Palin is going off her cue cards when she repeatedly bemoans the Michigan decision. I smell a rat

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

"This is an amazing set of polls!
For John McCain!"

An O+12 in PA, an O+5 in Maine, a tie in NC, and Obama moving up in all the national trackers are amazing news for McCain?

What drugs are you on?

Michael said...

OK, let's see if this comment posts this time...

TBender, I wouldn't be surprised if a 527 attacks Palin and her husband for associating with a separatist organization - or if there is no such ad. Because it's really small potatoes in this election. Palin is a negative for McCain, anyway, and a side show.

eve said...

What happens if there is a tie?

NPR relies on Nate's answer:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/politics/2008/10/what_happens_if_mccain_and_oba.html

TBender said...

Obama has not run a squeaky clean campaign.

The difference between the two campaigns is McCain's side whines about being called out by folks like FactCheck.org while Obama's side keeps moving on.

Once again, the calm, cool, unruffled side wins.

Matt W said...

I do not expect Obama to attack Palin. I would be disappointed if he did. It is not worth it and would likely cause backlash

Ed M. said...

No one cares what John McCain says at this point. Barack just needs to be presidential and he walks away with the thing.

Another Mike said...

Even though the Dems will control the House, I believe the GOP controls the majority of states.

------------

Democrats control the majority of state house delegations. Someone else will surely come along with the actual numbers, but it's something like 26 Dem, 22 Rep, 2 tie. The newly elected House should be the one to select the President, and as all pundits are predicting Democratic gains, it should be at least as Democratic controlled as the current.

fred said...

"This polling is GREAT for JOHN MCCAIN" is a running joke on the board. Relax...it's a joke.

Becky Sharp said...

Bring it on Sarah...

Obama was eight when Ayers was active in the Weather Underground. He's served his time and is now a "noted education specialist at the University of Illinois at Chicago".

"Mr. Ayers is listed as a member of the nine-member board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, an offshoot of the Woods Charitable Fund, founded in 1941 by a prominent lawyer and telephone company executive. According to the fund's Web site, it has focused in recent years on "issues that affected the area's least advantaged, including welfare reform, affordable housing" and "tax policy as a tool in reducing poverty."

It really pisses me off when ex cons are not allowed to rehabilitate themselves in the eyes of the morality-nazis

Ed said...

October will all economy all the time, as companies report their rotten earlings/losses. We will probably have some more volatility in the stock market, as well.

stewie123 said...

McCains problem is the "liar" label that hes earned by all the boldface lies told by his campaign. He can say whatever he wants now...the only people that will believe them are the guys that were voting McCain anyways, everyone else will just say.."same olld McCain..more lies".
McCain should really be careful with his accusations...theres his self-admitted history of colaboration with the NVA, propaganda tapes, which he made 32 of. His closing the books on any POWs that may have been left behind in the NAM. And his history of not voting in favor of veteran issues, as evident of his poor grades by vet organizations. The Keating 5 incident, his hanging out with an international con man on his birthday.
McCain better watch how desperate he gets with the lies, because for all those lies theres much more damming truth. The Obama campaign seems to be giving McCain a pass on the vet and POW questions..for now..but I think they can use those issues effectively.

LP said...

"Does anyone really believe that Palin is going off her cue cards when she repeatedly bemoans the Michigan decision. I smell a rat"

The only time she was not reading off of a teleprompter or suing carefully crafted talking points (see her flow chart) is when talking to charlie Gibson (in what respect, Charlie?) and Katie Couric (what Supreme Court decisions?).

So, yeah, I think she's going off of some sort of strict talking points.

jjj1951 said...

Palin throws a bomb today:

Says Obama pals around with terrorists (Ayers).

Pretty vile accusation.


So let me understand this. The actions of Ayers when he was a young man and ( Obama was a child) define the man for the rest of his life even though he apparently has led an exemplary life the past few decades. But using the criteria of ones past being the definition of ones life then the "terrorist" acts of Menachim Begin when he was a young man (including the bombing of the King David hotel which resulted in dozens of deaths) should have disqualified him from eventually becoming the Prime Minister of Israel?

striatic said...

this is looking a lot like '92, with bush pounding on the draft dodging stuff in order to avoid his economic record, all to the collective shrug of the electorate.

eve said...

"Does anyone really believe that Palin is going off her cue cards when she repeatedly bemoans the Michigan decision. I smell a rat"

The rat may be Palin. She may be doing some campaigning for her own political future and not McCain's when she makes statements like this.

fred said...

Obama will stay positive iunless his numbers drop. Don't rock the boat!

McCain will go very negative on Tuesday if the polls Monday are not better for him, he has nothing to lose. He might come off as the angry old man and finish himself in the elction - in fact, I kind of expect that if he goes negative in person.

mulbry said...

@ seattleslide & Michael

Click on the "12th Amendment" tag along the left-hand side of the pae to read Nate's in-depth analysis of the 269-269 scenarios...Obama's very likely to win, which is why McCain's started to focus on Maine's 2nd District and its single electoral vote...

TBender said...

Michael, you are right. It is small in the scheme of things.

My serious take is that nothing gets called out by the Obama side -- maybe a reference in a stump speech by Biden. And nothing by the 527s.

But still, Palin's defense would be interesting to say the least.

seattleslide said...

My bad - I only occasionally check 538 so I'm sure it has come up before (and will again)!

Matt W said...

eve,
I actually think that is giving her a lot of credit, but makes sense. I do not think it is a coincidence.
Somewhat telling that she was not involved in the decision. Assuming we believe this is all not a manufactured storyline that is

fred said...

This is not a manufactured storyline, she has no voice in the campaign and no respect, IMO.

PorridgeGun said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Real Joe said...



New McCain Ad

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/3096/mccainintrohq5.jpg

Darío said...

Pennsylvania is now solid for Obama in the RCP electoral map.

MATT J. H. said...

The McCain camp got damn near calling Obama a terrorist sympathizer and "Not as American" as her and McCain. This is really vile.
I have no idea how voters are going to take this, I have no idea how the Obama campaign is going to respond. One thing is clear though, McCain has left himself open to Joe Biden ripping his friend John McCain to shreds over this.

Personally I'd let Obama remain positive, focusing on the economy and turn Biden loose on McCain. I'd have Biden go straight after McCain's integrity, and how it is gone now. I'd have Biden say

"John McCain has no integrity left. NONE. He is not fit to lead America after the hated spewed by his campaign. Pure hate. I'd expect this kind of rhetoric from hate groups, not a candidate for the Presidency."

What do you guys think?

Adam said...

"My serious take is that nothing gets called out by the Obama side -- maybe a reference in a stump speech by Biden. And nothing by the 527s."

One big reason why Obama's winning over independents is that he's being serious in an environment with a lot of serious problems. Your average person hates politics because of all the pointless bickering over minor irrelevant issues, and someone that just doesn't care about them and focuses on what matters wins over a lot of people who don't always vote along party lines. There's no reason for him to change that now to make some AIP point.

Matt W said...

What about the new negative O ad about M's healthcare and taxes. Seems too republicanish to me

fred said...

I think they go back and run the John McCain is a lair" ad a few times to inoculate themselves from the coming 527 lies.

Darío said...

The McCain camp is hillarious.
If they continue with this, Obama will win in a landslide.
It´s the issues, stupid.

sawrad said...

So far, I've used the following two responses to the latest McCain/Palin tactics ...

As far as I'm concerned, George W. Bush has done more damage to this country than anyone who may have crossed paths with Barack Obama over the years. So it's John McCain's association with George W. Bush that will determine how I vote in November. Obama/Biden '08!
-----
Here we go again ... more right-wing propaganda; it reminds me of the propaganda the Bush administration put together to try to convince the American people that we had to invade Iraq because of "proof" that Saddam had WMD. Obama/Biden '08

Adam said...

Matt,

"What do you guys think?"

Wrong idea, though we'd love to see it. You get into a sideshow debate about McCain's integrity, that's news cycles that aren't focused on the economy. If you haven't noticed, every time a news cycle is focused on the economy Obama gains another point. People aren't responding to any of this crap McCain is trying to do anyway, may as well just let them flounder.

Matt W said...

Matt J H,
So far it is not coming straight from McCain though. It is coming through Palin.
If a response is needed it should be through Biden or other surrogate

fred said...

I love Obama's healthcare ad - it is perfect! WE need to go after indies and this is how you do it. It is not a negative ad as it is factual and does not attack personally or lie.

sawrad said...

Matt J.H.: I like it!

realistxxx said...

The Terrorist Meme is worn out. Everyone influenced by it already thinks terrorists are muslims. Barack Hussein Obama is already well known and those that think he's a terrorist sympathizer have cast their lot with McCain.

The Ayers story has no legs because it will only play with a group that was already against Obama.

Also...

Ayers - Alaskan Secessionists
Rezko - Keating 5 and Trooper Gate
Wright - Witch doctor and other crazy pastors for McCain/Palin

Unless they have something new, the "recent" aggressive tone will be another epic fail.

President Barack Hussein Obama... really rolls off the tongue.

MATT J. H. said...

This thing could possibly deteriorate into a brutally viscous campaign.

Matt W said...

They came out and called Obama a "bald faced liar" in response to the new ad! imagine the gall!
I think M's Healthcare plan is terrible and a good issue to hit, but not sure about this ad

PorridgeGun said...

Speaking of racists...


Pat Buchanan: Palin won because Drudge’s poll said so!

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/10/04/pat-buchanan-palin-won-because-drudges-poll-said-so/



Great logic, Pat! Unfortunately, facts have a liberal bias:


Post-debate polls (undecided voters):

CNN/Opinion Research: Biden 51% Palin 36%

CBS: Biden 46% Palin 21%

Fox: Biden 61% Palin 39%

SurveyUSA: Biden 51% Palin 32%

MediaCurves (indies): Biden 67% Palin 33%

Rasmussen: Biden 45% Palin 37%





Why does the so-called "librul" MSNBC employ this clown, and also Joe Scarborough?

David Brown said...

Question: The RNC is apparently sitting on a pile of $. It has been assumed that they are saving it for a last minute attack barrage.

Is it a sure thing that they will allocate the resources to help McCain rather than Congressional races? If McCain continues to flounder, would the RNC cut him loose and focus on races they can actually win?

fred said...

matt-

I am not sure that can win it anymore. The McCan is a liar ads have really helped innoculate Obama against some of this. I am not sure McCain has any vialbe ad option, he has to attack and win big at the debate.

PA John said...

The Obama camp responded to the Palin comments:

Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan responded:

Governor Palin’s comments, while offensive, are not surprising, given the McCain campaign’s statement this morning that they would be launching Swift boat-like attacks in hopes of deflecting attention from the nation’s economic ills. In fact, the very newspaper story Governor Palin cited in hurling her shameless attack made clear that Senator Obama is not close to Bill Ayers, much less "pals," and that he has strongly condemned the despicable acts Ayers committed 40 years ago, when Obama was eight. What’s clear is that John McCain and Sarah Palin would rather spend their time tearing down Barack Obama than laying out a plan to build up our economy."

As for how the negatives will work - check out how negative ads have hurt Norm Coleman in Minnesota.

TBender said...

terrorists are muslims

Completely off topic, but I know people who think this. They get pissed when I mention Timothy McVeigh.

fred said...

Joe Scarborough is a pompous boob and needs to be relegated to Fox. We don't need him on MSNBC! Move Maddow to the morning show and fire Joe!

Adam said...

"They came out and called Obama a "bald faced liar" in response to the new ad! imagine the gall!
I think M's Healthcare plan is terrible and a good issue to hit, but not sure about this ad"

They can call him a liar all they want. They'll surely say much worse. What matters is whether the facts are actually true, which they largely are. McCain's lost the media, probably his biggest campaign mistake, so now he's starting to get called on stuff like that.

Also, the last day intrade graphs are pretty funny. Someone's pretty blatantly trying to stop McCain's slide.

OTF said...

Obama won't attack Palin on the AIP, the campaign will sent their pitbull surrogates to do it...ie. Rendell and Wasserman-Shultz. I love Shultz when she is on the cable shows she eats Republicons up. She would tear Palin a new one. Don't mess with Debbie, she knows her policy info and if you wnat to throw dirt she's not backing down and will throw a dagger to the heart.

striatic said...

The Obama campaign will call a spade a spade. they'll call this yet another manufactured distraction, which it is.

Obama ultimately benefits from shenanigans like this.

Now, if McCain had adopted an anti-bailout position, maybe he would have had something to run against Obama on, but we know who McCain is beholden to and adopting such a position was an impossibility.

Another Mike said...

The rat may be Palin. She may be doing some campaigning for her own political future and not McCain's when she makes statements like this.

--------------

One thing that will be delicious to watch is the finger pointing sure to take place after the hopefully upcoming Republican debacle.

The bigger their loss, the more vicious the intraparty war will be. Even more incentive to donate to Obama and make phone calls.

Matt W said...

The senate race in MN is up in the air. Like nate said, don't buy into either of the two recent polls.
Negative ads usually work, but if there were to be a place where they didn't that would be MN

realistxxx said...

Matt W said...
What about the new negative O ad about M's healthcare and taxes. Seems too republicanish to me

-----------

That's issues based. I, for one, hate McCain's plan. My company health insurance is wonderful and I like the the pre-tax deductions.

One of the main reasons I opposed single payer plans like Clinton's is that I want to keep my company plan.

McCain's plan is horrible and radical. Obama is right to point this out.

fred said...

Great point Mike -


We need to motivated for a landslide to kill the Republican coalition once and finally.

MATT J. H. said...

Matt W said...

Matt J H,
So far it is not coming straight from McCain though. It is coming through Palin.


It is coming from John McCain's campaign. He is responsible for everything she says. If there is blow back, he will get it. Turn Biden loose.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

I hope they use all their money for McCain. That way Obama will win, AND we'll have 60 senate seats. =)

striatic said...

"One of the main reasons I opposed single payer plans like Clinton's is that I want to keep my company plan."

Under the Obama plan you can elect to keep your existing coverage if you'd like. It isn't a single payer system.

In that respect it isn't terribly radical, but probably more palatable to people in your situation.

-c- said...

To those comparing this to Bush in '92 - remember that Clinton was a White Southerner with an all-American story. I think Obama is much more vulnerable simply because of his name and ethnicity.
But, if Obama pushes back on these attacks, it may be too little too late for McCain. The time to push these attacks should really have been before the debates. It'll be much harder to define him now. I still think McCain's best and only course of action is the one they're telegraphing now. Between McCain, the RNC, and the 527s, they may have enough money to swamp out Obama's message, especially with the free media amplification these attacks always get.

It's not over yet

Matt W said...

Striatic,
If McCain had come out against the bailout, it would not have passed (because the Senate went first), the DOW would have dropped off a cliff, and EVERYONE would have blamed McCain. That was one Hail mary he was smart enough not to throw.

fred said...

The great thing about all today's polling, the Palin story that "won the debate" was an a final attempt to get a bounce from her. It seeems to have completely based on today's polling. WE said last week that Thurs. and Palin was their last best hope.

PorridgeGun said...

Biden Explains Debate Moment Where He Choked Up

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/04/biden-explains-debate-mom_n_131913.html

realistxxx said...

striatic said...
"One of the main reasons I opposed single payer plans like Clinton's is that I want to keep my company plan."

Under the Obama plan you can elect to keep your existing coverage if you'd like. It isn't a single payer system.

In that respect it isn't terribly radical, but probably more palatable to people in your situation.

----------

Ummm... read my post again.

I love Obama's plan just for that reason.

McCain's and Clinton's plans are more extreme.

Jason said...

Just out of curiosity, where do the McCain/Palin supporters post? LOL! I would like to see what they are saying right now.

fred said...

If Obama announces a single payer, it will take milliseconds for every major employer to dump your healthcare.

striatic said...

The stakes are high. I don't see democrats letting up just because they have a lead.

People who are just now swinging over to vote for Obama because they feel it is necessary in a difficult times, not because it is "cute".

That kind of voting mindset is the kind people will lock into and not be easily scared away from.

Another Mike said...

This is not a manufactured storyline, she has no voice in the campaign and no respect, IMO.

--------------

That's what struck me the most about her Michigan statement--it was an implicit admission that she's just along for the ride and has no influence in the campaign and no respect. She's a trophy VP.

Matt W said...

Jason,
I think they are all at their support groups for depression

John G said...

Maybe Governor Palin has actually read the New York Times - after all, she told Katie Couric that she read them all, and apparently she's now found someone else to give her follow-up list to. The Times today had a front-page story on Ayres. If one reads the whole story, one finds (a) that Ayres has made a positive contribution to society for at least two decades, and (b) that Obama has had minimal contacts with him, and nothing for over 5 years.

I suppose Governor Palin will not be impressed when President Obama makes Ayers Secretary of Education, a position for which he appears qualified ...

Uncle Toby said...

These issues, and names, are all old hat. They've been vetted by the American people in the primary. McCain is essesntially saying "Remember that thing from five months ago. That was pretty bad, hehhhhhhh?"

fred said...

freerepublic.com is a good right wing site

redstate.com

realistxxx said...

MATT J. H. said...
This thing could possibly deteriorate into a brutally viscous campaign.

--------------

A one-sided affair. You have no faith in Obama and his team after all of these months?

striatic said...

"Ummm... read my post again.

I love Obama's plan just for that reason."
--------

me too. i wasn't trying to contradict or confront you, but elaborate on what you had said.

kjvd00 said...

The momentum continues in Obama's favor. I've been in Ohio this weekend and the ground game looks great. The east side of cleveland has about double the number of field offices that it had even 3 weeks ago!

Obama
up 8.25 in Tracking Poll Composite

Ed M. said...

Just out of curiosity, where do the McCain/Palin supporters post? LOL! I would like to see what they are saying right now.

Youtube comments.

Matt W said...

John G.
She meant that she reads the headlines. I mean obviously she can't be expected to read the whole article. It was long.

I also loved that she said she reads the economist. That is like a bad inside the beltway joke. Everyone says they read the economist, nobody does.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

ust out of curiosity, where do the McCain/Palin supporters post? LOL! I would like to see what they are saying right now.

I see a lot of them on yahoo answers politics and youtube (what a surprise, right?)

Another Mike said...

Personally I'd let Obama remain positive, focusing on the economy and turn Biden loose on McCain. I'd have Biden go straight after McCain's integrity, and how it is gone now. I'd have Biden say

"John McCain has no integrity left. NONE. He is not fit to lead America after the hated spewed by his campaign. Pure hate. I'd expect this kind of rhetoric from hate groups, not a candidate for the Presidency."

What do you guys think?

-------------

Here's the campaign's response:

“Governor Palin’s comments, while offensive, are not surprising, given the McCain campaign’s statement this morning that they would be launching Swiftboat-like attacks in hopes of deflecting attention from the nation’s economic ills.

In fact, the very newspaper story Governor Palin cited in hurling her shameless attack made clear that Senator Obama is not close to Bill Ayers, much less ‘pals,’ and that he has strongly condemned the despicable acts Ayers committed 40 years ago, when Obama was eight.

What’s clear is that John McCain and Sarah Palin would rather spend their time tearing down Barack Obama than laying out a plan to build up our economy.”

I think that's about the right tone.

Matt W said...

another mike,
they almost always get the tone and message right. they are impressive

Jordan said...

Sarah Palin reading the NY Times & WSJ is like a 6th grader reading Shakespeare...they read the words, but it just doesn't make any sense.

Luckily for Palin, she gets to use the cliff notes...which in this case is just regurgitating everything her aides tell her to.

striatic said...

"What’s clear is that John McCain and Sarah Palin would rather spend their time tearing down Barack Obama than laying out a plan to build up our economy."
--------

This nails it.

If the Republicans could actually get together a serious plan for the the economy that wasn't a Xeroxed copy of Bush's tax plan and regulatory scheme, they might have had a shot.

But there is no plan. They're making it up as they go and the electorate is beginning to figure that out. You can only hide the smell of desperation for so long.

Ed M. said...

What Palin referencing the Economist reminds me of is something back during the primary.

Someone asked McCain who he would have for advisors on Israeli/Palestinian issues and he brought out a series of names that was actually credible. Whatever phone calls ensued later he came back and said he meant to say that he'd send Daniel Pipes and Randy Scheunemann, and a bunch of other Israeli zealot sort of dipshits over there.

The difference I guess is McCain knew what he was talking about anyway, Palin just had to be given the right answers.

Ginny in CO said...

Becky Sharp,

"It really pisses me off when ex cons are not allowed to rehabilitate themselves in the eyes of the morality-nazis."

Yup, they are like God: when you go to hell, it's for eternity.

Big reason I'm an atheist.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

The problem is that republicans are delusional. Unlike democrats, they don't accept when their candidate is losing. They say McCain and Sarah won the debates, even though all the polls say they didn't.

That's why it's pointless to talk to them. They're like robots. McCaindroids.

soozzie said...

What about the Palin tax returns? Does anyone know if there is fodder there? I saw someplace that ABC says she owes $60,000 in unpaid taxes for the per diems she accepted, but I can't find it on ABC. The Alaskans are abuzz that there is no way they can afford their house and the substantial dividend income for the kids on the money they make. Or she makes, since he appears to be more of a hobbyist than an actual employed person or entrepreneur.

Jason said...

Thanks for the links. IN my browsing i found this link, which is pretty interesting:

http://www.redstate.com/diaries/neil_stevens/2008/oct/01/is-it-time-to-give-up/

Tim R said...

Palin doesn't matter anymore except for whipping up the base with her scripted attacks on Obama. Nobody is listening..........IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!

fred said...

How many of those ex-cons are innocent and do not need rehabilitation, just a working justice system?

fred said...

How many of those ex-cons are innocent and do not need rehabilitation, just a working justice system?

fred said...

I aslso heard she under-reported her income from the governorship.

We will find out next week.

soozzie said...

Hey, Tim R -- kind of funny that the Economist-reading lady doesn't kind of get the economy, or that it is the economy stupid.

My husband is an economist and not even HE can get through the Economist!

striatic said...

"That's why it's pointless to talk to them. They're like robots. McCaindroids."
-------

Good thing that most people in many so called "Red States" are no such thing.

Most might be conservative, but are perfectly capable of smelling a rat, and i think that's what people are beginning to smell out of the McCain campaign.

GG said...

Okay gang, what does the XXIII Amendment, which gives DC electors, imply about DC's status in a HOR vote? (U.S. Code Title 3, Chapter 1, Section 15 may come into play as well.) In other words, are only 50 votes at stake, or is the number 51? I'd hate to see the Supremes decide which it is. As Originalists, Scalia and Thomas would say THIRTEEN!!, but not the original 13!

One other oddity. The XII Amendment puts the THREE highest EV getters on the HOR Presidential slate. If ANYONE besides Obama and McCain gets 1 EV, then that person makes the HOR list. Not likely mind you, but a faithless elector could create some real mischief. Those novelists among us see the narrative promise of Hillary getting 1 EV and then across multiple rounds of voting becoming President of the United States! THAT would be one for the history books!

Another Mike said...

they almost always get the tone and message right. they are impressive

-----------

Watching the Obama campaign operate reminds me of watching Michael Jordan with the ball--you just feel confident that they're going to get it right.

eve said...

I wish we could have a Wasserman-Shultz v. Palin debate.

tigermoman said...

Not only are McCain and Palin going to go mud slinging you will see the RNC and 527's start to put out really bad ads. I read somewhere that McCain's advisers say the Arizona senator will ramp up his attacks in the coming days with a tougher, more focused message trying to describe "who Obama is," including questioning his character, "liberal" record and "too risky" proposals in advertising and appearances.

Both suggest McCain is to hit Obama on Tony Rezko and Bill Ayers, suggesting that Jeremiah Wright may still be off-limits for the time being.

The fact is that McCain has nothing left but to go negative. He loses when it comes down to the issues so all he has left is to avoid all issues and truth be damned.

Mule Rider said...

That's it. I know when I'm not welcome. I'm done with this site. It's tiresome putting up with so many hate-mongers who lie and smear and bemoan God or anything good about this country we live in or life we lead. I'm beyond sad.

I've said it before, but I mean it this time. Never again. To those I have gotten along with, best wishes. To those I don't, I hope you find some ray of light in your cold, dark world.

OTF said...

eve,

"I wish we could have a Wasserman-Shultz v. Palin debate."

It would be a blood bath. We would need dental records to identify Palin's remains.

FreeThinker said...

IEM WTA O 75, McC 25
Intrade O 64.8, McC 35.2 after renormalizing.

Intrade prices intraday swing aroung a lot. Closing prices are more consistent. That said, there seems to be a general trend toward McCain in the Intrade state and national contracts except for MI, IN and FL. Curious.

On creating universal coverage, why not one "group" called US citizen with a package comparable to congress that any insurance company operating in the USA would need to bid on, or carry through reinsurance as a portion of their portfolio?

Anyone who is a citizen could join or stay with a plan of their preference. That would line up the preferences of the industry with the needs and wants of the people and would eliminate cherry picking from the broad group coverage.

Isn't that the way insurance is supposed to function, spreading the risk exposure rather than putting incremental profits above service?

Snax said...

Biden would have been the guy to deal with this. Unfortunately it looks like he's not going to be around much this week - his mother-in-law is seriously ill.

fred said...

See you Mulie!

Another Mike said...

Okay gang, what does the XXIII Amendment, which gives DC electors, imply about DC's status in a HOR vote?

-----------

Just read the amendment. It doesn't say a thing about DC have a say in case of no candidate receiving the majority of EVs. Since it is silent, the clear language of the XII Amendment should govern. I don't see a legitimate argument here for DC having any say in a HOR vote.

PA John said...

So will SNL remind America that Sarah Palin is a joke yet again tonight?

I picture lots of winks.

Michael said...

John G posted:

"I suppose Governor Palin will not be impressed when President Obama makes Ayers Secretary of Education"

No way, that will NEVER happen!

By the way, I have to take exception to the idea that Ayres is completely rehabilitated. He is unrepentant about being involved in bombings, some of which killed people. He actually believes the Weather Underground showed a lot of restraint not to bomb more than they did:

In an article that by chance was published on Sept. 11, 2001, The New York Times wrote about Mr. Ayers and his just-published memoir, “Fugitive Days,” opening with a quotation from the author: “I don’t regret setting bombs. I feel we didn’t do enough.”

Nor did he ever go to jail, because he was acquitted due to prosecutorial misconduct. I am frankly quite uncomfortable with Obama's association with Ayres, but I am somewhat comforted by the way the article in today's New York Times ends:

“If Barack Obama says he’s willing to talk to foreign leaders without preconditions,” Mr. Hayden said, “I can imagine he’d be willing to talk to Bill Ayers about schools. But I think that’s about as far as their relationship goes.”

I am certainly voting for Obama, so don't feel the need to try to convince me. But I do not believe that unrepentant former terrorists merit being forgiven, even if we duly credit them with whatever good deeds they have done since.

fred said...

SNL is doing a VP debate segment.

meconella said...

""This is not a manufactured storyline, she has no voice in the campaign and no respect, IMO.""

The McCain camp might talk her up in public, but they really cant be pleased with her anymore.

Other than soft interviews, she really is unable to go out on her own and fill the role of most vp candidates. Instead they must use resources better used elsewhere to defend, instruct and keep her under wraps 24/7.

She still is cute and perky, but she has to be a big disappointment to Sugar Daddy McCain on several levels.

Another Mike said...

Mule rider,

I've never responded to you before because you come across as a hateful troll. So, just this once I'm making an exception for you--don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Unfortunately, I suspect you'll be back. :(

striatic said...

"It's tiresome putting up with so many hate-mongers who lie and smear and bemoan God or anything good about this country we live in or life we lead. I'm beyond sad"
--------

Sorry to hear that.

I'm a strong Obama supporter and people who insult religious people or say McSame or Republiclowns or insults Palin's voice.. any of that ridiculous stuff drives me nuts too.

Supporting Republicans doesn't make anyone an android unthinking robot.

Sorry you're sad.

Sedi said...

Mule Rider,
Sorry to see you go, actually, if you are leaving. When you aren't cantankerous you can be thought provoking.

I'm curious about what prompted this, however. I know you had a lengthy exchange with some folks in the other thread, but this one seems pretty innocuous to me. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Matt W said...

Freethinker,
Who pays? how do you cover the uninsured? how do you make sure this is not the policy of the high risk group?
The fact of the matter is that health insurance is a social and economic disaster for everyone. Uninsured people cost us all, like seatbelts, and liability insurance it should not be optional

fred said...

Ayers is a non-issue. Obama went to his house once when Obama weas getting started in politics. No BFD!

PorridgeGun said...

The Obama campaign should demand McCain release his medical records, sharpish!

Something went wrong with McCain's face on national television:

http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/something-just-went-wrong-with-mccains.html

Fatih said...

Now that Mccain pulled out of MI and PA moving out of reach, there are not many path's for him to get 270 EV's, since he already lost IA and NM.
Obviously he will not be able to defend all remaining Bush States.
Accounting for the fact, that he has not much money to compete with, I can't see how he could win without winning ME and NH now. There are 2 possible winning paths, that could be achievable with limited money.

1. Concede CO, keep NV, VA, NC, OH, IN, Fl, flip ME and NH,
or

2. Concede CO + VA, keep NV, NC, OH, IN, FL and flip MN, ME and NH.

Having said that, Mccain chances are very grim, and the decision of his campaign to compete in ME is the ultimate Hail Mary

fred said...

MR can leave. He says the biggoted offensive crap of any current poster, but gets offended when attacked. He is your average repub, he is a true believer in his position that cannot inteeligently discuss it because he has nevr thought about it.

Alex S. said...

Nate, since you announced a senate update, I wonder if you could use generic congressional polls the same way that you use national polls for the presidential election?

soozzie said...

Mulerider is leaving? I thought he already left? Isn't this like the third time?

eve said...

Michael said...

"Eve, I think a lot of people care about what Ayers did. I just don't see any evidence that it will change the results of this election. I will say that if I thought for one second that Obama supported what the Weathermen did, I would not vote for him. But he clearly does not in any way condone what they did."


Yes, some people do care. It was a very big deal.

And we are talking about an electorate that includes lots of young people plus lots of people who can't even tell you who the current head of the Supreme Court is or who the vice president is.

Most voters today either never heard of him or did not remember his name prior to this campaign. A great many voters have never even heard of Weatherman. Too young. Hard to get large numbers of people worked up over something that happened long ago with a name that is had become a bit obscure at this point in time.

Some repubs will get worked up over this because they prefer McCain. But you won't see them getting upset over his infidelity that happened long ago.

Same thing with the Keating 5. It hasn't been much of an issue because it happened a long time ago and memories are short. It might get a bit of traction because of the current meltdown.

soozzie said...

Actually, as I was about to post, I realized that Mulerider was again leaving us and got distracted. Sorry.

What I was about to say is that if McCain has truly lost, and he truly knows it, wouldn't it be sort of mavricky (not a real word, but it has a truthiness about it) for him to get away from the attacks and the demeaning stuff, and try to gain a little honor that might serve himself well as a legacy? And maybe assure some political future for him?

Adam said...

Mule will undoubtedly be back. While he's clearly intelligent and make good arguments, his offensive, bigoted posts a few weeks ago means I'm glad to see him go, at least for now.

Of course, it could be a sock puppet. There's nothing in this thread I think he would find offensive.

Another Mike said...

But I do not believe that unrepentant former terrorists merit being forgiven, even if we duly credit them with whatever good deeds they have done since.

----------

Totally agree with this statement. But he is doing good currently, such that Obama's minimal ties with him don't make me uncomfortable in the least or imply any sympathy for Ayer's terrorist views in my mind.

fred said...

I would hope McCain can get away from Schmict and lose with dignity...it would be against everything he has done to this point htough.

OTF said...

Bet SNL mocks the way Palin never asked 1/2 the questions. Also the way that she said Maverick 30 times and spoke in that folksy way with no substance beyond generalized talking pts.

Adam said...

"What I was about to say is that if McCain has truly lost, and he truly knows it, wouldn't it be sort of mavricky (not a real word, but it has a truthiness about it) for him to get away from the attacks and the demeaning stuff, and try to gain a little honor that might serve himself well as a legacy?"

I really think this is the one card he has left to play, and very possibly will. Fires his campaign manager and most of his staff with a couple weeks to go, gives a big speech and goes on every news show talking about how he was led astray by the agents of intolerance or whatever and apologizes and wants a clean campaign now. While 527s and the RNC play nonstop Wright in Ohio.

The problem is, it doesn't work now. He pushed the bar too far with the campaign suspension stunt. Nobody would believe it. Once people think you're cynical and not sincere it's really hard to get that back.

Matt W said...

soozzie,
1. He has his senate seat as long as he wants it.
2. He cannot bring himself to accept defeat now. He really wants this and will not go down without a fight

fred said...

MR said some ofensive gay hating crap and then decided to act like he never said it. So I went at him over God and evolution, he couldn't deal.

Ed M. said...

What about the Palin tax returns?

I did notice this. They claimed every last deduction you could think of but they didn't claim a nickel to their church. I'm pretty positive that they didn't throw anything in the offering much less tithe at 15% like the Assembly of God folk they are supposed to be should.

Michael said...

I follow what you're saying, Eve.

I do believe that there will be anti-McCain ads that explain the Keating 5 scandal. I don't know whether they'll be 527 ads or Obama campaign ads, though.

striatic said...

"1. Concede CO, keep NV, VA, NC, OH, IN, Fl, flip ME and NH,
or

2. Concede CO + VA, keep NV, NC, OH, IN, FL and flip MN, ME and NH."
--------

keeping OH and FL is vital to both of these plans. Keeping FL is going to cost a lot of money if it is even possible.

I can see parts of either of these paths working, but not every variable clicking all at once. It does look very grim.

Andrew said...

Real Joe said...

New McCain Ad

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/3096/mccainintrohq5.jpg


Real Joe ~ FTW once again ~

Another Mike said...

Bet SNL mocks the way Palin never asked 1/2 the questions. Also the way that she said Maverick 30 times and spoke in that folksy way with no substance beyond generalized talking pts.

--------------

I'm looking for lots of winks from Tina Fey.

What do they do to saterize Biden? The most memorable thing he did was choke up when talking about his wife dying. Hard to see how they make that funny.

Adam said...

"1. He has his senate seat as long as he wants it."

I don't think this is necessarily true. Napolitano seems likely to run for it, and Arizona isn't that red of a state; it could well be in play with another Republican this year.

Michael said...

Matt W, are you sure McCain won't have a tough time running against Janet Napoletano if he doesn't retire at the end of his current senate term? McCain has run a dishonorable, lying campaign, and Arizona seems to be trending Democratic, like much of the rest of the Southwest.

Matt W said...

Senate update is here!

Brigitta said...

"1. Concede CO, keep NV, VA, NC, OH, IN, Fl, flip ME and NH,
or

2. Concede CO + VA, keep NV, NC, OH, IN, FL and flip MN, ME and NH."

He's not going to flip all of Maine, just the western half or something, right?

PorridgeGun said...

McCain campaign surrogate invokes the Holocaust (presumably to distract people from the ecomomy)

http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/mccain-campaign-surrogate-invokes.html




Notice how neither McCain or Palin have mentioned 9/11 and bin Laden during the debates? Obama and Biden have been fairly expicit.

What's the bet a defrosted bin Laden just before election day will be Bush and the Republican's October Surprise? It's just about the only thing Bush has left to save him from being judged as the worst pResident in history.

eve said...

Mulerider is leaving? Is this like the stores that have a going out of business sale every week? Or is this another humor bit?

Fatih said...

Yes if Mccain loses OH and Fl, than it's game over. I think with limited money, his Campaign can only hope (!!!) for is, that nearing eletion day, the race tightens, hence some of the Bush states come back by themselves, like NC, IN, NV and maybe OH. That leaves him to fight for FL, ME, NH and MN.

John Nail said...

I've posted a full view of "McCain's Last Stand" - here
http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/jnail/blog/&blogId=4559

McCain's chances are so limited that Saracutie is making and Omaha stop tomorrow nite, Of course McCain is resting in Sedona all weeekend.

Fatih said...

2. Concede CO + VA, keep NV, NC, OH, IN, FL and flip MN, ME and NH."

He's not going to flip all of Maine, just the western half or something, right?
---
Splitting ME opens up another interesting scenario. Mccain get 3 Ev's if he wins one district and the total vote of ME and Obama therefor gets 1 Vote. Welcome to another 269-269 tie scenario

striatic said...

"What do they do to saterize Biden?"

There are a few ways. He bumbled words fairly often and was a bit dull at times.

Often when there's not much to satirize, satirists will take the "he's boring" angle.

jhsm85 said...

I find it funny that, Sarah Palin, such a "devout Christian" cannot understand why Barack Obama wouldn't quit his CHARITABLE work in Chicago because one of the guys working with him (Ayers) did something despicable 40 years ago. This woman disgusts me more and more for every day that passes.

Yesterday she said Obama should be disqualified for saying that civilians had died in air raids in Afghnistan.

She also said she wanted the death penalty for child rapists. Yet.. She wants rape victims to pay for their own emergency rape kits..

So basically, she's accusing Obama of not quitting his CHARITABLE work. Then goes on to accuse Obama of being disqualified for not lying about civilian deaths. Then wanting the death penalty for child rapists, but putting the emergency rape kid bill on the child.

If Sarah Palin ever becomes president, I become Canadian. What are Canada's refugee policies?

striatic said...

there was also that "i see my light is blinking" moment where he then seemed to proceed to talk for another minute and a half.

PorridgeGun said...

Mule Rider, in case you missed this on the previous thread...

If you think Obama is gonna govern as some flaming liberal, you're gonna be supremely disappointed. Maybe not. There is nothing in Obama's life story to suggest otherwise, and even if it did, what the fuck is so bad about that? America has been run into the ground by right-wing idealogues and religious fundies for 8 years.


Here's something "traditional" and "neo" conservatives continue to be wilfully ignorant of:

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/images/Picture%201.png


BTW, the last liberal to run for the presidency on a platform of social justice and anti-war sentiment was Bobby Kennedy. And he was murdered, along with Martin Luther Kings months earlier, after it became clear he would likely win the Democratic nomination. What does that tell you?


Based on domestic policies, Richard Nixon was the most liberal president of the last 40 years. That's a fact. Even Michael Moore said that. The country shifted to the right when Jimmy Carter became president.

striatic said...

"If Sarah Palin ever becomes president, I become Canadian. What are Canada's refugee policies?"
--------

As a Canadian married to an American and living in America, please don't say that.

And for everyone threatening to move to Canada if a Republican wins, the Canadian immigration system is at least as bad as the American one, if not worse.

Canadian immigration doesn't discriminate against gay couples though, like the US system does, but it is just as inefficient, exclusionary and expensive as the american system in pretty much all other respects.

Sedi said...

Fatih's post about winning scenarios got me thinking: unless McCain rights his campaign ASAP, the state by state analysis will start to get pretty boring. I mean, Fatih's scenarios were wildly unrealistic, since McCain has virtually no chance of winning ME. Yes, it's possible, but it is incredibly unlikely. McCain could win PA, but almost every poll has Obama leading by high single digits. Perhaps McCain could win MN or WI, but both see like serious longshots right now. MI was just conceded, so that basically leaves his only legitimate route to winning as holding the Bush states - IA & NM. That's a seriously tough route, given that he currently trails in about 3 or 4 other states.

Bottom line: if McCain's national numbers don't improve soon, the electoral college won't matter much because the election won't be in doubt. I'll still love coming here, but it won't seem quite so urgent, I think. Not that I'm rooting for a McCain comeback, mind you, but I'm at least half-expecting one.

striatic said...

"Bottom line: if McCain's national numbers don't improve soon, the electoral college won't matter much because the election won't be in doubt."
--------

It depends on how overconfident Obama gets. He does sometimes get that way, and need to get it well into his head that the support and trust being placed in him by voters in VA and OH especially should not be taken for granted for an instant.

Keep the pedal on the floor, be even more prepared for the next two debates than he was for the first, and don't lose the election.

It's his to lose, and he's capable of losing it still, even if it is unlikely. don't get cocky.

Fatih said...

I just want to make it clear, that I myself don't believe that there are probable winning scenarios for Mccain, too. But suppose you were working for the Mccain Campaign (I'm not) these are are his best chances.

Sedi said...

"I myself don't believe that there are probable winning scenarios for Mccain"

Yeah, I sort of figured that. It's just so hard to imagine McCain winning right now, given that his only realistic path involves holding CO, MO, IN, VA, NC, FL, and OH. But I do believe that the dynamics of the race could easily shift, and if Obama's lead dwindles to a point or two then McCain all of a sudden has a few viable paths to victory again. The map and the national sentiment favor Obama, though I am not getting cocky, striatic. I'm just looking at the electoral picture as it appears right now.

jhsm85 said...

@striatic: I'm pretty moderate, if it was McCain/Lieberman, McCain/Romney, McCain/Giuliani etc I wouldn't throw out that threat :)

It's just Palin that I'm literally terrified of.

Thanks though!

Ventu22 said...

Nate Silver said, "Ipsos/McClatchy has come out with a poll showing that the debate moved undecideds slightly toward the Obama ticket, confirming the results of most of the snap polling conducted on Thursday evening."

That is flatly incorrect as per the link you provide yourself.

Using Nate's own metric, there was an 8 point shift in undecideds moving -toward- the McCain Palin ticket after the debate.

Prior Polling:

56 - Obama
44 - McCain

Post Debate Polling:

52 - Obama (-4 Obama)
48 - McCain (+4 McCain)

Now, what the article actually says is that it's capturing an underlying current of undecided toward Obama -- which is obvious due to the financial and credit market troubles.

What is shown from this polling is that, yes, they still are Obama positive numbers but the derivative doesn't lie and it's in McCain's favor.

What someone who actually understood mathematical modeling (sorry, baseball doesn't count) would say is that there is a shift in the numbers toward McCain/Palin. If this is due to the Palin preformance is unknown -- it could be a shift due to the downgrading of the financial/credit situation away from a crisis state, or due to sampling fluctuations -- but it appears to coincide temporal with the debate.

Malcolm said...

Nate,
I understand why you compacted the MorningCall poll to save space, but I like seeing the latest result broken out separately. For example, seeing that he is now at +12 in PA adds to information that the average is +8.5. This way we can see some of the trend.

Michael said...

PorridgeGun, I think that how liberal an Obama administration is will be affected by how liberal an increased majority in both Houses of Congress is. My impression is like yours - that Obama is not all that liberal. But a combination of extraordinary economic circumstances and a sizable majority in Congress could change that.

loner said...

Ventu22—

Per the link:

Before the debate, those same undecided voters were leaning 56 percent to 44 percent for McCain.

There was a 16 point shift -toward- the Obama Biden ticket.

Sedi said...

"What someone who actually understood mathematical modeling (sorry, baseball doesn't count) would say is that there is a shift in the numbers toward McCain/Palin."

Are you always a jerk, or did you just decide to act like one here? You can make your point more effectively without the attitude.

While Nate might not qualify as someone who really understands mathematical modeling in your view, he clearly is someone who can read. The article (the relevant quote is below) says that the undecided voters went from leaning 56-44 to McCain to leaning 52-48 to Obama. I have never claimed to be a mathematical modeler, but I'm quite sure that means that Palin DID NOT help out McCain. And I didn't even need to use derivatives!

"It also found that Palin's performance in the debate did nothing to clinch undecided votes for her running mate, Arizona Sen. John McCain. Before the debate, those same undecided voters were leaning 56 percent to 44 percent for McCain. The day after the debate, the numbers tilted 52 percent to 48 percent for Illinois Sen. Barack Obama."

jhsm85 said...
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jhsm85 said...
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politicalcynic said...

Do not understimate the American Electorate's ability to change its tune and respond to attack ads. Check out the Obama drop when McCain ran his celebrity ad in the Princeton numbers.

This is exactly the Rove-esque type of tactic that cost Kerry the last election.Betting the cynic's side, I would bet the Ayer's play by the McCain campaign drops Obama across the board by AT LEAST four points and possibly as much as five-and puts VA, NC, FL, CO and OH back into play for McCain. This one will hurt Obama. Badly.

Political "still betting McCain at 273-279" Cynic.

uriel said...

"The Times today had a front-page story on Ayres. If one reads the whole story, one finds (a) that Ayres has made a positive contribution to society for at least two decades, and (b) that Obama has had minimal contacts with him, and nothing for over 5 years."

That's the part that gets me- I tried to post a comment about it over at FOX, but apparently they aren't letting responses to their story through:

Of course, she conveniently neglected to mention that the NYT piece pretty authoritatively debunked the entire concept that the two were even noddingly close. She even seems to have failed to notice that the main point of the article was to point out that they hardly knew each other at all.

It's an interesting comment on Palin's reading comprehension-

Perhaps now we know why she was so afraid to answer that mean, mean Couric lady's 'gotcha' question. She was scared that the follow up question to "what have you read" would be "what did it say?"

oct said...

How deep into the McCain tank will Ras and RCP sink this election. I think ras will go down this time do to his manipulation of the polls to develop stories for McCain. I am sure his numbers are favoring McCain a little now to show a Palin-debate bounce. Sad times.

And RCP pulled CO off of their Map to keep O from tipping over to a winning map. Sad hopeful folks there.

And the Dems caused all the financial problems the last 8 years. LOL

Sedi said...

"I would bet the Ayer's play by the McCain campaign drops Obama across the board by AT LEAST four points and possibly as much as five"

Of course, because when stock values tumble, the U.S. government spends $700 billion to prop up our financial sector, and the economy is going to pot, what most voters focus on are casual acquaintanceships that the candidates have had with former fringe political extremists (turned mild-mannered college professors). Sure, this seems reasonable and plausible. At least you admit to being a cynic...

GG said...

@ another mike
"Just read the amendment. It doesn't say a thing about DC have a say in case of no candidate receiving the majority of EVs. Since it is silent, the clear language of the XII Amendment should govern. I don't see a legitimate argument here for DC having any say in a HOR vote."

Interesting you assume I haven't read the XXIII amendment, especially when I've asked what the amendment IMPLIES. "Silence" and "clear language" are often the beginnings of legal arguments, especially concerning the Constitution. Even a cursory survey of important Supreme Court decisions shows the varying directions "silence" and "clear language" can take. In the end, THE "legitimate argument," by definition, is the argument agreed to by a majority vote of the Supremes. But in the meantime, it would be helpful to be guided to discussions by Constitutional scholars about DC's possible one-vote status.

LAT said...

Per Politico Obama going jujitsu over McCain's upcoming smears.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14283.html

rdweber said...

Maine is not an all-or-nothing state. It's good to see y'all writing about Obama's chances in NE2, but does McCain have an equal chance at stealing back one EV in Maine?

David said...

NATE: I'm not happy with the format change you are proposing for reporting your state tracking data. Do I understand it correctly? For polls with multiple results in a single state, we will no longer be able to see the dates of any of the polls?

Marlon said...

Hey Ventu 22.

I think you read that Ipsos poll wrong. The undeciced started out leaning towards McCain and then sauntered over to Obama after the debate.

Here's the quote below:

"It also found that Palin's performance in the debate did nothing to clinch undecided votes for her running mate, Arizona Sen. John McCain. Before the debate, those same undecided voters were leaning 56 percent to 44 percent for McCain. The day after the debate, the numbers tilted 52 percent to 48 percent for Illinois Sen. Barack Obama."

Doctor Pion said...

Perhaps you have explained this in the past, but ... Won't a tracking poll that has been going up, keep rising a bit because of inertia?

As I understand your description of the methodology (a description that says they are quite different than implied by media reports), the newest day's data replaces an older day's data. That means a drop from day N to N+1 will still result in an overall increase provided day N-5 (or whatever) was smaller than the new day N+1 result. Right?

judas_priest said...

@ Doctor Pion:

Yes, it's true in a limited sense. A three-day tracking poll will show an increase for a canddiate even if the new poll shows him losing, so long as the day that dropeed out was worse.

That being said, this is true only for a short time. Ultimately such polls, if they are well-conducted will vary narrowly around the "true" figure.

DCM in FL said...

watch the REAL VP debate:

the video of the VP Debate - SNL style on 10/4/08 Sat. night... with Queen Latifah as Gwen Ifill moderating, Tina Fey as Sarah Palin & also a Joe Biden:

@ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/04/tina-fey-as-sarah-palin-i_n_131964.html

Ventu22 said...

I find it amazing that any representative sample taken immediately (~2 weeks) prior to the debate would have McCain leading [+12%] in how undecideds were breaking.

That is a terrifying proposition for an Obama supporter; in the midst of a financial\credit market crisis, McCain was winning over undecideds at a rate of [+12%]? If McCain was really leading during a financial crisis, a democratic issue, this would point toward some strong structural problems for Obama. What will happen when the credit crisis moves off the front-page in a week or two? That margin will turn most, perhaps all, of the toss-ups red.

I know many want to bash Palin, but if given the choice, I would rather have an Obama lead with a small movement toward McCain post debate than have undecided voters breaking to McCain [+12%] during a financial meltdown. Think about it.

Or, alternatively, it's just a bad sample. Which would explain why a subset of undecideds were moving toward McCain during this period, but then we'd have to throw out the poll since it implies the sample isn't representative.