10.30.2008

Today's Polls, 10/30

Man, I thought I trained you guys better than this.

There is a lot of consternation in my inbox about two polls. One, from Mason-Dixon, shows John McCain just 4 points down in Pennsylvania. The other, from FOX News, shows McCain down just 3 points nationwide.

Let's start with the Pennsylvania result. Mason-Dixon is a pretty strong pollster. So, however, are many others from among the literally dozen or so agencies that have conducted polling within Pennsylvania over the past 72 hours. And none of those other pollsters shows the race that tight.

Mason-Dixon has also had a Republican "lean" this cycle of perhaps 2-3 points. They are quite frequently the most favorable number for John McCain in any given state. That doesn't mean that they are "biased", and it doesn't mean that they are wrong – there are many different (and legitimate!) ways to think about this election. But it does mean that their polls need to be interpreted in that context. Let's say the average poll in Pennsylvania has Obama ahead by 9.5 points. Mason-Dixon will probably start out seeing a 9.5-point state at a 7-point state. If they then end up toward the McCain side of their margin of error -- and they don't use huge sample sizes – that’s how you get to Obama +4.

Now, look. I don't think we need to be in the habit of ripping a poll apart every time that we don't like the result. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with this poll. It's simply that we need to look at in concert with the rest of the evidence. In this case, we have an abundance of evidence, and it suggests on balance that Pennsylvania is neither particularly close, nor is it particularly "tightening" (Mason-Dixon's prior poll of the state, in Mid-September, had Obama up by 2).

It might also help to come at this from the other direction. Here is one poll out of many, out of one "must-win" state out of many, that shows that John McCain is sorta kinda close? This is the best news he can muster? On Monday, I laid out specific criteria for what I'd want to see in order to conclude that the race has tightened materially:

John McCain polling within 2 points in 2 or more non-partisan polls ... in at least 2 out of the 3 following states: Colorado, Virginia, Pennsylvania.
We have yet to see any such results in any of these three states.

*-*

As for the FOX poll, I'm a little bit taken aback at the number of people who assume that, just because the poll is from FOX, it must somehow have been cooked. Sixteen times out of 20, an aberrant result (and I'm not sure you can really call this "aberrant", since a couple of other pollsters show the race at about 3 points right now) is the result of statistical noise. Perhaps 3 times out of 20, it might be the result of a poor sampling procedure. And then there might be that one case in 20 where the pollster feels compelled to put his finger on the scale in some way -- but these cases are extremely rare. And there's no particular reason to accuse FOX News of this behavior. Their polls haven't had much of a partisan lean this cycle, and for that matter, they were among the only pollsters to have John Kerry winning the popular vote in 2004. If there's a problem with FOX News polls, it's not that they're biased, but that they're simply not all that good.

It's true that FOX's sample included a materially higher percentage of Republicans this time around. FOX, however, does not choose its sample; its sample chooses itself. In this case, when they drew their ping-pong balls out of the jar, they came up with a slightly higher percentage of red ones. This kind of thing will happen all the time unless a pollster weights by party ID, which FOX News and many other pollsters do not. The Pew poll that came out the other day, for instance, had a big increase in the number of Democrats in its sample.

Nevertheless, the change in the partisan ID of their sample does cut against the notion that the race is tightening. What we are ultimately interested in is whether the same voters are starting to look at the race in a different way -- making up their minds, or changing their minds. In this case, however, it appears mostly that FOX was talking to different voters -- a more Republican-leaning set of voters -- rather than reaching the same sorts of voters and finding that they were thinking about the race differently. John McCain did pick up a few points among independents, but the numbers among Republicans and Democrats were essentially unchanged.

Numeros:



Boy, that's a lot of data. If there's anything that jumps out here, it's that we probably shouldn't be too quick to conclude that the race comes down to exactly Virgnia, Colorado and Pennsylvania. There are two polls out of Virginia today that show that state a little tighter than most of the other recent numbers; on the other hand, Ohio is becoming a real problem for John McCain, and perhaps North Carolina is too.

Lastly, although it's probably too early to conclude anything much about whether the Obama infomercial was successful, the Rasmussen and SurveyUSA state polling that was in the field last night seemed to contain pretty good numbers for him, slightly better than for much of the past week.

214 comments

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

Looking good.

Daniel said...

first
aussies4obama

NC_voter said...

These polls are great news!!! For Barack Obama!!!

Wow, look how BLUE that map is!

On this day, October 30th, in 2004, George Bush led John Kerry 49.3% to 46.4%.
For Final results, please see presidential inauguration, January 2005

At this point out from Election day, John Kerry never led in any tracking poll whatsoever



(52) days since the Fundamental Shift towards McCain/Palin as described by PeteKent

You 'Cons should be getting really nervous!

Congratulations to President Barack HUSSEIN Obama Jr. Get used to saying it, rethugs.
(emphasis placed on middle name to spite race-mongerers who tried to use it politically)

Cowardly Trolltards MIA:

Midpoint Man
Oz Johnny
Greg
Jack Black
CTPEM
CTSTW

(5) days left until the McCain concession speech.

phil said...

3.7% chance of McCain.

96.3% chance of a future.

someperson718 said...

At the TOP of the list!

Loralee said...

Thank God! My laptop is about to die.

Luke C. said...

Awww, you took so long. :(

Jarvis said...

Great site, Nate. Would you be willing to run some 'what if" numbers? For example, what happens if there is poor voter turnout by the young, black, catholic, etc (name your favorite demographic) and project how that could change the results. I think the implications for low turnout for a specific group would be extremely valuable.

Also, could you make a graphic with confidence intervals?

ThaFurnace said...

John McCain: You will never get this! You will never get this!

Wesley M. said...

whats up with the two very different mn polls?

vote4america said...

Modeling Voter Suppression; Obama still wins

A More Perfect Democracy

McCain needs 409,239 votes in seven states to win the election, whereas John Kerry needed 118,599 votes in Ohio

Debunking the Bradley Effect, Again

Senate Projection: Democrats 58, Republicans 42

dcusimano123 said...

Getting nervous, your nice post today made it a little better. DON'T LET UP.

Zenu said...

LA needs some more polling urgently. McCain only +3 is way closer than any other old and outdated polls I remember seeing there.

Could LA be one of the surprise upsets for McCain come next Tuesday?

Forrest J. Bowlick said...

What's the deal with that Loyola Louisiana poll? From the rest of them, it seems like massive outlier, right?

word: squilyt. As in 'John McCain has about a squilyt of a chance to win Vermont'

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

nc_voter,

Your daily contribution is essential for my sleep. Thanks for being quick tonight, saves me refreshing for the next 45 minutes.

Kind of wondering why the model doesn't have NH as a lock yet. But still, I'll take 98%.

Valpey said...

Pac-Man says “CHOMP”!

McCain wondering where Joe the Plumber is is GREAT NEWS!! For JOHN McCAIN!!!

Word Verification: forylles - as in: Is you forylles?

Christopher said...

Nate you need to post these earlier. It's late ;p

When will you do your final prediction?

Publius said...

ZOMGZ, McCain is within 4 in Pennsylvania! Let the concern trolling begin!

[yovelsec, n. (1) a word used for CAPTCHA verification on Blogger. (2) the indescribable sensation in one's guts which occurs when FReeper and concern trolls attack a polling blog with five days left before a Presidential election.]

CA Hawkeye said...

Thanks Nate, nice glasses. New?

GOBAMA!!!

Anyone else who is suffering from electile dysfunction, most notably at work, may want to seek soem relief at:

http://www.capsteps.com/

FYI, I am in now way associated with the site. Just a fan.

newsinOH said...

I, for one, am amazed that you can keep running this site and managing the increasing demand for your punditry and analysis!!!

Emagineit said...

Poll watching is making me time my day by release of new polls...Zogby and Rammusen in the Morning, Gallup a bit after 1...


I think I am going to suffer from election day withdrawl On november 5th.

Still, better than suffering both that and a McCain presidency. Please for my sanity, do not let McCain win!

Matt said...

PPP West Virginia

M: 55
O: 42

This one stays red.

Mr. X said...

Once again, we have to bear in mind the meaning of the margin of error. 19 polls out of 20 will represent reality within +/- 3 points, which means that every 20th poll done should be an outlier. As Pennsylvania is getting 3 or 4 polls a day at minimum, we should see at least one inaccurate result a week. Since the Mason-Dixon result agrees with no other pollster in the known universe, we can safely assume this is the outlier.

Much as I would like to believe that Louisiana result is one of the 19, I can't help but suspect that it's an outlier too.

Zenu said...

Axe my comment about outdated polling in Louisiana. 3 recent polls, this one, one of McCain up by 12.3 and another by 16.

Very different numbers going on, and I'm kinda scratching my head right now.

N45 said...

Nate, you're wrong, the fox news poll is cooked: It's a 4 point poll not a 3 point poll.

look at the internal PDF from FOX:

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/103008_poll.pdf

"A sub-sample of 924 has been defined as likely voters(LV) [including] obama supports LV n=439"

that's cut from the top paragraph of the fox news PDF.

439/924 = 47.51 Which should round up to 48, except they rounded down to 47.

Yet, Mccain's number, which comes out to be 405/924 = 43.83 THAT ONE they rounded up.

the actual difference is 3.68 not 3.

ctyri said...

Reminder to nervous nellies on Obama's side: Kerry+IA+NM+any is still the game. And nothing today puts it in much doubt.

RWD said...

I was just on 270towin.com, trying to make it show Obama with less than 270...and it was tough. I just can't see any realistic way Obama gets less than 291 EV.

I don't think Obama will win either IN or MO. He won't win ND or MT either. Even so, it's a resounding win. My predicted election night surprise: Georgia. Bringing O to 348, an easy win if not quite a "landslide".

Jen said...

The Arizona polls were interesting. Mason-Dixon had a better number for Obama then CNN? Odd.

Arizona must be close if M-D has it at M+4. I think McCain may have trouble getting another term there.

Berimm. "Berimm" is what all the male attendees at a Palin rally really want to be screaming.

Davy said...

Thanks for the reference to the CDC report on cell phone only stats from your earlier post.

I teach at the University of Oregon and conducted an impromptu poll of my own in class yesterday. I asked my students if they were planning to vote. Most had already and only one was not registered. I then inquired how many of them had a land line at their residence. ONLY ONE QUARTER OF THEM DID. Those were local residents who still lived at home.

Granted this mini survey is skewed towards college students but if this is happening on campuses across America then I think we're in for a big surprise on Nov. 4th.

(sorry about the repost; there was a troll infestation in the last thread)

andrew said...

Obama Supporters:

Keep fighting. Keep canvassing. Keep making phone calls. Keep talking to your friends and family about voting for Barack. Keep donating money. THIS RACE IS NOT OVER!!! ITS TIME TO CLOSE!!

Its the bottom of the ninth and WE are Mariano Rivera!

NC_voter said...

Why thank you JMMLC :)

I do what I can...to keep the trolls at bay.




BTW folks don't sweat NC. It will vote for Hagan and Obama. I've seen some amazing things on the ground here as part of Obama's ground team. Things that will NOT be reflected in the polls until election day

In fact, not only is Obama going to win NC, he's ALREADY winning it. By alot.

Kelly said...

The Loyola number for LA is just weird. It's showing 17% undecided (or third party)? That is way, way too high for this stage in the game.

ogmb said...

You forgot Arizona!

[wv: miciogr = cantankerous old goblin]

CZ said...

First, why is Obama's shot at a landslide diminishing so rapidly? A few days ago it was almost 50%. Is this the fundamental shift about which we were forewarned?

And there has been a 100% decrease in the model for a McCain Landslide. Shucks, I miss it already.

WV> thwedest what is thwedest place on earth? Kuai.

David said...

After today's results, Rasmussen moved Indana and Montana into "tossup" status. Woo...

I want to see them poll North Dakota, they haven't been there since early September!

PeteKent said...

Kay Hagan is godless. Vote Dole 08!

sfergus483 said...

NC Voter -

Thanks for your comparison to 2004.

However, to make the comparison accurate - 10/30/04 was a Saturday, 3 days before the election (which was 11/2).

10/28/04 would be the comparison that makes sense, not 10/30/04.

(delidist - an afficiando of pastrami on rye)

If you could adjust, it would be even more helpful.

Thanks in advance.

Sedi said...

The number that really jumped out at me was the M +3 result in LA. I don't know anything about that pollster, but is crazy to think that McCain has less than a 5-point lead there, especially with the decrease in AA population in the state post-Katrina. It must be an outlier, but it's still surprising to see. Everything else seems in the realm of believability. I must say, though, that 3.7% is way too high for McCain...he needs a miracle right now.

Side note: McCain's lead from the two polls in AZ today is the same as Obama's lead in CO and smaller than Obama's lead in OH.

newsinOH said...

This was posted during the afternoon but it's so good, it bears repeating in case anyone missed it:


Obama aide Robert Gibbs was asked just now about whether the Khalidi attacks would hurt Obama with Jewish voters in Florida.

“No, I think the McCain boomerang yesterday landed somewhere between their nose and their forehead," apparently referring to reports that the McCain-chaired International Republican Institute had funded Khalidi's group.

RWD said...

"In fact, not only is Obama going to win NC, he's ALREADY winning it. By alot."

Hell yeah he is. And Georgia too. States like NC and VA and GA are right in Obama's wheelhouse, and the pollsters don't get it because they are discounting AA turnout, and also discounting young Democratic turnout of all races.

thene said...

Finally another Seltzer Indiana poll? It's not as good for Obama as her last one back in September, iirc.

Would be great to see some more polls of LA and GA.

bommo; a local election race with no candidates other than the Republican incumbent. Very common in the South..

Concern Troll said...

Will Elizbeth Dole's horrible new ad have any effect on the presidential race in NC?

mc9cain said...

damn, you have to believe that if the election were another two weeks out, he might get another 5 or more states. IN, GA, MT, ND, MO, AZ, and even LA?

BUT I WANT IT OVER NOW!! :)
(PPP said they were going to have a few polls out at 10 Central tonight

TomEG said...

McCain is gaining fast. At this rate he should be in the lead nationally by Tuesday. Hot damn, we'll have a McCain/Palin administration after all. I knew that voters would see through Obama sooner or later, and now they have. Expect a McCain popular margin of 2-4 points, and electoral college by a hair, but a hair is all he needs. Finally, the result we've been hoping for! Hee hee hee.

Clarissa said...

Kelly- that's exactly what bugged me on that LA poll to. 17% undecided- is it RV (no follow up leaner questions)?

KB said...

Those numbers in NH are crazy high! I'm headed there for the next 5 days to make sure they stay that way.

Thanks, Nate. I'm addicted to this site.

WV: soless as in "Those soless rethuglicans will not win this time!"

Diana said...

Thank goodness! Compulsive refreshing is giving me twitchy hands. Thanks for your clear-headed analysis Nate; I'm not worried about my home state (PA) going Red, but it's nice to see some reassuring words from someone who knows better than I do how these things work.

Have other people seen the Elizabeth Vargas interview of SP? Someone in a previous thread said Palin made her look like Edward R. Murrow, and I can't help but agree.

WV: emism - short for McCain-ism, refers to campaign gaffe clearly related to advanced age/memory loss.

Dave Brodbeck said...

19 times out of 20 is the type 1 error rate for any given poll. It does not really mean that every 20th poll is off, it means that there is a .05 chance that any poll in question (that uses the .05 level of significance) is off.

The Raj Man said...

Nate: It's clear that you haven't trained very many people very well at all. But, keep up the good work and the integrity!

The N-oracle speaks!

thene said...

rwd - I'd love to believe that... (My husband put one away for Obama today, here in GA). What worries me is that, even if that is so right now, those same voters are going to stay home on the day of the inevitable GA senate runoff. :/

Seretse said...

Concern Troll said...
Will Elizbeth Dole's horrible new ad have any effect on the presidential race in NC?

Probably not. Nor will it have any effect on the outcome of the NC Race. Hagan wins.

InkStain said...

"I want to see them poll North Dakota, they haven't been there since early September!"

I'm sitting next to my landline right now. Can I just call them? Do I have to wait for them to call me?

ovoutri

livemild said...

so what do you guys think for tomorrow? obama gains from infomercial, joe the fake plumber or?

anyone think wright matters this late? i know im sounding like a concerned nut.

RWD said...

"Will Elizbeth Dole's horrible new ad have any effect on the presidential race in NC?"

How exactly is someone Godless, but also a Muslim AND an acolyte of a crazy black liberation preacher? It just don't add up.

I doubt it has much of an effect on either the Senate race or the Presidential race.

Kelly said...

First, why is Obama's shot at a landslide diminishing so rapidly?

As the election gets closer, The Model thinks the blue states are getting bluer (higher Obama win %) and the red states are getting redder. Obama needs at least one of the current red or pink states in order to hit the landslide mark of 375 EV, and his chances of getting one are going down.

www.democratz.org said...

I trust the Muhlenberg poll in Pennsylvania. The CNN poll confirms it. Muhlenberg appears the name of the first speaker of the United States House of Representatives.




Please answer a poll on universal health care at http://poll.democratz.org



You can watch Countdown with Keith Olbermann at
http://liberal.democratz.org



You can watch The Young Turks Liberal talk show after you watch Countdown by clicking on the link that reads Watch the Young Turks, near the top of the page.



Look for the live chat box at the bottom of the page.

David said...

Rasmussen analysis from Montana:

"The latest Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of the state shows John McCain with 50% of the vote while Barack Obama picks up support from 46%. However, the presence of Ron Paul on the ballot adds an additional problem for the Republican hopeful. Six percent (6%) of McCain voters might vote for a third-party candidate while Obama faces no such threat.

Overall, two percent of the state’s voters are committed to voting for a third party candidate while two percent remain undecided.

If the election is perceived as being very close, most of those who currently lean in McCain’s direction would be likely to vote for the Republican candidate. However, the more it seems like Obama is going to win, the more likely it is that some of these voters will decide to file a protest vote."

"With release of this, Montana is moving from “Likely Republican” to “Toss-Up”"

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/montana/election_2008_montana_presidential_election

RoseAnn said...

Breaking News: Glitch leaves 1,000 Atlanta voters out in cold

C said...

Nate, I love this site!! It's become mandatory reading throughout the day, thanks for your efforts and breaking it down for me man.

PeteKent said...

Alright, I'm officially jumping ship. It's over for McCain. He won't win in a landslide. Hell, he won't even win at all.

But this is only the beginning, libs. ;) The PALIN REVOLUTION will begin once Hussein gets elected!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

Seretse said...

InkStain said...
"I want to see them poll North Dakota, they haven't been there since early September!"

I Obama is polling relatively well in Montana, is it reasonable to say he's polling alright in western North Dakota? I would imagine Western North Dakota is where he might find his weakest support.

caregive said...

Some of those down ticket races might get velly intellesting if we're still waiting until 11/14 on several hundred thousand expat votes which might be heavily in favor of Obama and Democrats.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election-2008/obama-told-victory-may-depend-on-expat-votes-20081012-4z48.html

"Steve Morgan, a strategist who advised former presidential candidates Al Gore and John Kerry on winning votes from Americans abroad, told The Sunday Telegraph: 'Americans abroad are registering to vote in record numbers this year.'"

"There will be 200,000 to 300,000 voting in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida and Michigan. In all those states, their votes won't even be counted until November 14."

To all Democratic contenders in tight races: Step Away From the Concession Speech.

"irtions" - Obama has had just a vew small irtions in this years presidential race, compared to McCains many large irritations.

RWD said...

"What worries me is that, even if that is so right now, those same voters are going to stay home on the day of the inevitable GA senate runoff. :/"

Unfortunately, that is what runoffs are supposed to do. They are designed to &*^% elections. They are an anachronism that should be abolished.

NC_voter said...

The blowback here regarding Dole's despicable ad is already precipitating.

There's been more coverage about how false the ad is itself than the ad ever got played in the first place.

NC is safe Hagan.

InkStain said...

If Montana flips to Obama because of Ron Paul, allow me to thank Mr. Paul for finally doing something useful for this country.

And allow me to pat myself on the back for calling it all along.

afons12db said...

@ Andrew

I'm a huge Yankees fan - therefore I LOVED your Mo Rivera reference.

Enter us sandmen! We are the venerable #42, the greatest relief pitcher of all time, the greatest postseason pitcher of all-time (0.77 ERA to prove it...), and like Mariano, we will bring the end to an exciting close by doing the same thing we have been doing - In Mariano's case, the cut fastball. In our case - being relentless on the telephones, in donation, and in just talking about how Barack Obama is the leadership that the United States NEEDS!

Alan said...

I need to know what you mean by "when". You claim a 75.08% probability that "Obama wins VA when losing OH" but your probability of Obama losing OH is only 18%. Thus you cannot mean "Obama wins VA AND loses OH" by the "when" phrasing. Is it possible that this is a conditional probaility and you mean "Obama wins VA GIVEN he loses OH"?

John Nail said...

A local news poll from LA shows a tie...
http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/jnail/blog/&blogId=5197

The early vote and AA turnout alone is a hint that LA will be much closer than the recent polls show...

Ellen said...

Vote4America, thanks for those links. Those are the best things I have seen in this month. I've wanted to be optimistic, but after the last 8 years it's impossible to have any faith in "democracy." Your link has made me feel a little less paranoid.


WV -- bolorni. What McCain's attack ads are full of when you don't feel like swearing.

www.democratz.org said...

When Elizabeth Dole loses in NC, we will have one more white trash southern conservative out of government. Thank God.

InkStain said...

"I Obama is polling relatively well in Montana, is it reasonable to say he's polling alright in western North Dakota? I would imagine Western North Dakota is where he might find his weakest support."

I dunno. I'm guessing he's doing best in Montana in Billings.

My county (I moved here two months ago from Illinois) is the least rural county in western ND, and it is traditionally 60% R, 40% D in its voting.

But there's almost literally no population out here in the western half of the state. Almost the entire population is Bismarck and westward.

turgidson said...

I got a question:

If today's polling occurred on Monday Nov 3, what would the win %s be?

PeteKent said...

I am depressed that McCain is going to lose. :(

But we can still get our majority in the Senate.

DO NOT vote for Kay Hagan! She is godless! Elect Liddy Dole! A true patriot!

cincyr said...

Everyone's talking about how the youth are not showing up to early vote.

I know why. It's like my friend who doesn't shop until Christmas day so that he can really be in the middle of it all.

Young voters are not procrastinating. They just want to be in the middle of it all.

NC_voter said...

Hagan is going to cream Dole so hard that her facelift will untighten.

beamman said...

I brought this up in the last thread, but I didn't see anyone bite (perhaps you thought I was only joking): Is anyone else concerned that McCain will keep pushing on after Election Day, campaigning to recruit "faithless electors"?

If I recall right, there are few if any laws actually compelling electors to vote as pledged.

Before you say "no, way": consider this (if you are old enough to have come of age before the mid-1990's): would you have ever dreamed that the GOP would actually use impeachment against Clinton over, essentially, a sex scandal??

Brian said...

I also noticed the Mason-Dixon results, but for Minnesota. They have an 8 point race here for Obama over McCain, and are showing Coleman 6 points ahead of Franken. I find both of those numbers extremely hard to believe, and blame invalid weighting.

Seretse said...

NC_voter said...
Hagan is going to cream Dole so hard that her facelift will untighten.


oh snap...

Real Joe said...

john nail said...
A local news poll from LA shows a tie...
http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/jnail/blog/&blogId=5197

The early vote and AA turnout alone is a hint that LA will be much closer than the recent polls show...



LOL

LA is red

you guys should take it easy

what's next ?

Alabama ?

anbruch said...

Blogger PeteKent said...

I am depressed that McCain is going to lose. :(

But we can still get our majority in the Senate.


I see, if you can't get the improbable, go for the impossible.

www.democratz.org said...

For those stressing out on this election take heart.


The BLAME for Bush's REIGN shall fall mainly on McCAIN.

:)

RWD said...

So,how many people in your county Ink? You moved to a pretty sparsely populated part of the world, there...been to ND a few times and it's hard for people who've spent their lives east of the Mississippi to conceive of how un-densely populated it is.

phil said...

McCain's guaranteeing an Ohio win and says he feels confident about Pennsylvania.

Poor guy's senile.

Nadingo said...

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Professor Ray Fair at Yale has posted his "final" vote share prediction from his econometric model that relies mostly on macroeconomic variables. His prediction:

Obama's 2-party vote share: 51.91%
McCain's 2-party vote share: 48.09%
Spread: 3.82%.

It's a bit tighter than Nate's current projection of 5.5%, but well within the margin of error.

You can check it out at http://fairmodel.econ.yale.edu/vote2008/vot1008.htm

CA Hawkeye said...

PeterKent has thrown in the towel?

WTF!!!

I want what he's smoking.

As for SP and the future of the Repibs, les see if she survives this first. I think she is more likely destined for Fox News.

WV: flang!!!! The sound of victory!!!

GOBAMA!!!

curious said...

I'm floored that Louisiana is on track to vote republican. I just went back and re-read the Louisiana "Road to 270" entry. I've been there a fair amount since 2005, and watched the recovery / lack thereof pretty carefully: "Heck of a job, Brownie." I just don't get it.

Seretse said...

beamman said...
I brought this up in the last thread, but I didn't see anyone bite (perhaps you thought I was only joking): Is anyone else concerned that McCain will keep pushing on after Election Day, campaigning to recruit "faithless electors"?


Unlikely.

Bill Clinton was not impeached for a sex scandal.

Real Joe said...

Colemen is not going to win

relax

Nawlinspot said...

John Nail, your poll is the same "Loyola" poll that Nate lists.

WV: "gonsta" -- Joe the Plumber was gonsta from this morning's McCain rally.

PeteKent said...

It's not impossible. The only seats that the Democrats are certain to win is Virginia and New Mexico. If we snatch away Louisiana and New Jersey, and then get Lieberman, we will have the majority!! HAHAHAHAH

ARE YOU READY FOR MAJORITY LEADER MITCH MCCONNELL, LIBS?

RedHawksO4 said...

5 days left and no movement for McCain. Tick tock, tick tock...


Battleground Snapshot: Florida

Real Joe said...

MN moonbat's are getting worried

WTF ?

Stephane MOT said...

al Qaeda cast their last minute ballot. Same color than 2004 and 2001 : red.

Joseph said...

I sill think LA is ALOT closer than pollsters think

InkStain said...

"Bill Clinton was not impeached for a sex scandal."

I wish he had been. Having sex with a subordinate is out of bounds, whether or not you lie about it under oath.

David said...

By the way:

Change Poll
O* M-1 ABC/Post
None Battleground
O-2 M* Hotline
None Gallup
O* M-.1 IBD/TIPP
None Rasmussen
O* M+1 Research 2000
O+1.2 M-1.4 Zogby

ABC & Zogby move for Obama; Hotline & Research 2000 move for McCain; Battleground, Gallup, IBD/TIPP, Rasmussen flat.

RWD said...

"LOL...LA is red...you guys should take it easy...what's next ?...Alabama ?"

Honestly, if it weren't for Katrina, Obama's chances in LA would look a lot like his chances in GA. Not great but possible. But Katrina really shifted the population around a lot.

|The_fragile_99| said...

I wonder due to the lack of widespread polling in some smaller states might there not be a "oh wow!" moment or two ie. slight scrappy wins in say one or more of LA, MS, MT, the Dakotas and AZ etc.?

Ok I think the multi-axis of WTF_Land; Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Nebraska, SC, OKie and Alabama aside, alot more might be in play?

Yeah tonight's word verification was "chypo", Icelandic for ignore ein a troll yah?

;D

,,,,

David said...

"I brought this up in the last thread, but I didn't see anyone bite (perhaps you thought I was only joking): Is anyone else concerned that McCain will keep pushing on after Election Day, campaigning to recruit "faithless electors"?

If I recall right, there are few if any laws actually compelling electors to vote as pledged."

It depends, do they really want to throw the country into turmoil?

Quadrivium said...

Puzzle of the day:

I'm having trouble reconciling the following three observations about Nate's current model:

(1) All the states that are now blue on the map give Obama 364 electoral votes, and Indiana would make 375; but

(2) Indiana is now pink again, with Obama's win percentage down to 41 percent; but

(3) In the Electoral Vote Distribution graph, 375 EV is showing considerably more likely than 364.

How can this be?

culta

Matt said...

Man, that Liddy Dole "godless" ad is such an own goal. How could she have thought that it was a good idea? Maybe 10 or 15 years ago in NC, but not now.

Corey Bunje Bower said...

It looks like every single state that McCain's within 7 points (or ahead) is a must-win state for him -- unless he can make up ground in NM, PA, or some other state where he's further behind.

InkStain said...

"I brought this up in the last thread, but I didn't see anyone bite (perhaps you thought I was only joking): Is anyone else concerned that McCain will keep pushing on after Election Day, campaigning to recruit "faithless electors"?

If by some miracle McCain manages to do the most epic electoral dance of all time and eek out victories in Ohio, Florida, Virginia, Colorado, North Dakota, Montana, North Carolina, Georgia, Indiana and Missouri, and we end up in a 269-269 scenario.

Yes, then I would be worried.

Joseph said...

PeteKent

No, but I am ready for the election to be over, so you will STFU and go back to your mom's basement to play WarCraft and drink Kool-Aid

HRD said...

The Virginia numbers are making me nervous.

PeteKent said...

Also, nc_voter, you wouldn't know because you're a liberal hippy, but North Carolinians would NEVER vote for a godless person like Kay Hagan. I would know, I have several relatives there. Dole will retain her seat with ease because of her excellent, tactiful, and well-timed mud-slinging. If only McCain learned from her before it was too late...:(

Just ask the Mason-Dixon poll that has Dole +4...ALREADY! HA!

Bry said...

I made some phone calls for Barack today, after finally finding the courage to talk to strangers on the stupid phone. I got a lot of voicemail and wrong numbers, but the highlight was when a 92-year-old lady told me she already voted for change.

That's not statistical in any way. But hey.

The Numantine said...

OMG! McCain's ahead in AZ. Noooo! I can't handle it. Oregon is going to vote D yet again and some stupid State South East of us is going to screw things up!

dhugal said...

Has any media outlet done a comparison of state polls to campaign activity?

Obviously there is a lot of activity everywhere, but certainly rally dates are on record as well as mentions of shifts in strategy, like employing "robocalls" in particular states.

I'd be really interested to see if there is an correlation between McCain or Obama's presence in a given state and the impact on the polls. I'd really be interested to see state results aligned with Palin's trail.

Just a thought.

NC_voter said...

Petekent sockpuppet: You need a new act. It's getting old


Where is HE? Now THAT is good parody!

Ellen said...

"How exactly is someone Godless, but also a Muslim AND an acolyte of a crazy black liberation preacher? It just don't add up."

All religious extremists are convinced that their religion is the only REAL religion, and that everyone who doesn't worship THEIR version of God is a godless and evil atheist.

RWD said...

"If I recall right, there are few if any laws actually compelling electors to vote as pledged"

Which is why the electors are all hand-picked, dyed-in-the-wool party hacks. Really. They are chosen based on no other criteria except that they WONT be faithless.

Joseph said...

Check under PeteKent's desk...I think He is under there.

Natalie said...

Thought you guys might appreciate this sweet letter from Obama to a second-grader at a day school. The kid sent Obama a "Flat Stanley" doll to "spend the day" at the Senate.

Flat Stanley's Day (PDF)

Valpey said...

@Alan:
"I need to know what you mean by "when". You claim a 75.08% probability that "Obama wins VA when losing OH" but your probability of Obama losing OH is only 18%. Thus you cannot mean "Obama wins VA AND loses OH" by the "when" phrasing. Is it possible that this is a conditional probaility and you mean "Obama wins VA GIVEN he loses OH"?"


You'll be able to figure it out by looking at the fraction on the right: (1371 of 1826). So of the 10,000 simulations, Obama loses Ohio 1,826 times (18%). Of those 1,826 times he loses Ohio, he wins Virgina 1,371 times.

Brian said...

realjoe says
"Colemen is not going to win

relax"


I'm not worried about Coleman winning, I'm making an allegation of a flawed mason-dixon poll.

PeteKent said...

An act? I'm not acting. I'm talking all facts now.

Want me to link you to the poll, liberal hippy? The one that shows Patriot Dole up 4 over godless kay?

Real Joe said...

hrd said...
The Virginia numbers are making me nervous.


LOL

VA is blue

moonbat's need to grow some balls

Troy said...

If there was a time for faithless electors, it would have been 2000.

Seretse said...

new thread

Concern Troll said...

So where are these new PPP polls?

PJ McIlvaine said...

PeteKent, what drugs are you on, and can I have some?

Minnesota Mike said...

Gotta love this time of year, polls are comming out around the clock.

PPP will be releasing polls for Colorado, New Mexico, Michigan, Minnesota, West Virginia, and Oregon yet tonight. So far only West Viginia is out.

West Virginia

McCain- 55
Obama- 42

Dave Brodbeck said...

Kristol is on the Daily Show tonight, ought to be interesting.

wv "grupe" how Sarah Palin spells "group"

Minnesota Mike said...

Minnesota is next for PPP

Zev said...

Thank you for being sober. That is why I refresh 538 eight times a day, sobriety.

God said...

i endorse Kay Hagan. Dole's ad is ungodly. Vote Hagan 08!

Dan M. said...

I think you may be a little harsh on the folks who questioned the FOX poll because FOX sponsers both valid and bogus polls. The poll you did a nice job of analyzing (as a experimental physicist I can appreciate data analysis) looks like a real poll to me too. But, Fox also conducted polls of Fox viewers and boldly proclaimed that poll which had McCain winning the last debate ~85-15. IMHO, the average person might not be expected to accept any polls from someone who runs bogus polls some of the time.

Cugel said...

"
It's true that FOX's sample included a materially higher percentage of Republicans this time around. FOX, however, does not choose its sample; its sample chooses itself. In this case, when they drew their ping-pong balls out of the jar, they came up with a slightly higher percentage of red ones. This kind of thing will happen all the time unless a pollster weights by party ID, which FOX News and many other pollsters do not. The Pew poll that came out the other day, for instance, had a big increase in the number of Democrats in its sample."


This is exactly why I don't like Pollsters refusing to weight by party ID! I know Nate insists this introduces a new error factor, and I can see that it does if they get the party ID wrong!

But NOT to do so makes the polls wildly all over the map. They get some crazy B.S. sample, with too many Republicans and they just go with it.

Pew has the same problem. That's how they get Obama +15 when virtually everybody else sees the race as much closer than that.

If Obama winds up anywhere CLOSE to 15% I'll eat my hat, and I don't have a hat!

I think you NEED to weight by party ID and you NEED to get that ID right.

Research 2000 has the problem that their poll just grabbed a number (Dems +9) and stuck with it all year. If that number turns out to be right, then they'll wind up being pretty accurate, but if it changes, or they just pick wrong, then all their polling is totally skewed for the entire year!

Rasmussen at least makes some kind of sense in doing separate polling to determine what the real Party ID is each week, and then using that.

They have the race at 5% which is about right.

David Brown said...

I'm a substantial Obama donor in a very blue state (WA). A volunteer called me a week ago with a reminder to vote and again last night to confirm that I had voted (we vote by mail in most WA counties). Since this woman thanked me for voting and contributing, they didn't call by accident.

The Obama GOTV machine is amazing. On this basis, I am convinced that Obama will significantly outperform the final "likely voter" polls.

|The_fragile_99| said...

I endorse Kay Hagan. Fuck I'd endorse Tom Hagen. Dole looks like Tammy Faye's Zombie sister.

wv: "slarchin" as in McCain SLARCH!!

kittles93 said...

No Zogby leak from Drudge tonight.

Interested to see if commercial gave Obama a little bounce.

David said...

Pete, I know you're trolling, but... you know Kay Hagan is a Presbyterian church elder who teaches Sunday school, right?

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/politics/general/view/2008_10_30_NC_Senate_candidate_Hagan_sues_GOP_incumbent_Dole/srvc=home&position=recent

Dave Brodbeck said...

I get a kick out of the whole "Obama is a socialist" thing. We actually have a socialist party here in Canada, and O would not be in it, he would be in our centrist Liberal Party I think.

wv "beriq" the body of water Sarah Palin looks across to see Russia...

kittles93 said...

Another item: It appears McCain is not going west until the earliest on Election Eve.

Colorado and Nevada out of reach?

HAKKIN£N!!!!!!!!!!!!! said...

My explosive diarrhea is GREAT NEWS!!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!!

Minnesota Mike said...

The Obama GOTV machine is amazing. On this basis, I am convinced that Obama will significantly outperform the final "likely voter" polls.

Agreed. If you are an Obama supporter or not you have to admit he has run a very good campaign.

My only complaint is it took 6 weeks for my Lawn Sign to arrive :) (it got here monday). I know it is cool on this site to diss Lawn Signs but since this is the first election I have owned a yard I really enjoyed putting it up. Much more enjoyable than Xmas decorations.

|The_fragile_99| said...

Out west?What McCain doing some canvassing in Puerto Rico and Guam maybe?

oh I kid you not wv: "seditive"

makes sense add petekent and stir! for a good nights schhhhleep.

zzz

livemild said...

i have had three obama lawn signs stolen my neighbor two...

i am going to bring them in at night.

Jayse said...

Nate, I live for your posts.

politicalcynic said...

Nate:

You did train us better than this. But many of us have PTSED (Post Traumatic Stolen Elections Disorder).

To calm PTSED, follow these steps:

Upon seeing any ugly poll:

1. Go to RCP and look at the running track of the trend lines nationally and, where available, state by state (VA is REALLY a happy one these days). Obama has held steady between +5 and + 7 nationally for weeks, and has been ahead in every critical state and then some since at least early October. (I would also note that today's average polls nationally from 538 show an average of Obama plus 6.1).

2. Then go to Princeton and look at their daily meta-analysis track-which has also shown an Obama win for weeks-and with fairly consistent numbers.

3. Then go to Karl Rove's site-where he projects Obama at 311. A happy place these days (hee hee)

4. Remind yourself that it is the aggregate numbers that are accurate-not a single poll.

The steadiness of the results calms the PTSED response, after which you can wait patiently for your 538 polling fix.

washwords said...

thank you. exactly what i was looking for re: pennsylvania tonight. your site is great (if a bit overwhelming, I'm still doing the background reading and I work in social science! don't get me wrong - it's great. just ... very complete!)

Anyway nice to see you - the face behind the numbers on msnbc. add me to the fan list.

raizen2kids said...

I made phone calls in NH this evening. Reached 20 people. 18 were voting for Obama, 1 was undecided, 1 refused to say. That's a pretty strong result (even if the sample size is small and the list was compiled by the Democrats.) And the 18 for Obama were all really excited and energized. We're voting for the change we need.

David said...

Re: low Indiana probability but big spike at 375 - Keep in mind how the model works; the simulations start by assuming that the popular vote comes in at a certain level, and that the polls are therefore all moving one way or the other compared to today. If the polls all move in Obama's favor, he has a good shot at picking up all the states where he's ahead, and all close states... but polls have to move a long, long way before he starts going above 375. So, there's a large probability region where he'd get all the likely states including Indiana, but no more. On the other hand, if his vote total stays even or drops a bit, then he's hit & miss in a lot of states, including Indiana, North Carolina, Missouri, etc. This spreads out the probabilities in the region slightly below among multiple outcomes.

Look at the scale, that largest spike is about 1300 simulations out of 10,000; or about 13%. That's the mode, but it's not like it's 50% of the results or anything.

Elevator said...

Ah, you're so reassuringly smart.

When all the news outlets say "is the race tightening? one poll says yes..." It's good to have a genius like you to tear that sh*t apart and look at it more intelligently than everyone else.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

"Thank you for being sober. That is why I refresh 538 eight times a day, sobriety."

Recovery is a more neutral term.

kittles93 said...

raizen, what do you say to the undecided?

And do you tell them you are calling on behalf of Obama before you ask them who they are voting for?

I am curious about the process.

Ramón Morales said...

Nate:

i do not trust Fox's new poll and we need to question the timing of this poll and who it serves. The McCain campaign is doing a massive blast of this poll result to support its narrative of a tightening race.

That said, I really appreciate your detailed and insightful analysis. I understand that you want to be above the fray and do not want to slam Fox for bias. Yet , it seems no other conclusion can be reached taking all these factors into consideration. Fox polls are bad AND biased.

phil said...

Obama +4 in Virginia actually sounds fairly reasonable as a final result. Take the Marist poll, split the couple undecided percentages, and you get 52 O - 48 M.

Cossack said...

Despite how much I would like to see Obama win Louisiana, 17 percent undecided is one hell of a big number.

Its very likely an outlier.

Green said...

OK, I just finished making about 70 calls for Barack... to Ohio and NV.

Happy to see Nate's update.

Here's what concerns me- my childhood friend (we are now in our 50's) voted for Bush twice so you know where he stands (although liberal on social, environmental stuff) and he was BIG for Obama till today...

Called me saying all the stuff he hears about Obama's associations and his tax plan (he believes in trickle down!) have made him undecided.

As a Jew, he didn't like the Khalidi story...

So, I calmed him down and we had a great talk. Ultimately he hates McCain and should be a vote for O.

But the point is that you can try to run out the clock in this game or you can counter attack... wouldn't it be great for the surrogates to land a punch right about now? All we get is this drip, drip, drip of anti Obama from FOX and the candidates (coordinated of course)

I don't want a tight race. I want to bury these guys. And you are seriously kidding yourselves if you don't think something wierd can't happen here. Obama has been Swift Boated nationally over the last two weeks and, while his response in the swings may be tough (I'm in CA so wouldn't know, anyone know???) his national "vibe" is being shit on by these clowns.

I want a national counter punch and I want it right in McCain's balls!

This ain't over...

And it should be!!

www.barackobama.com
make calls for the next 4 fucking days.

junebugamy said...

Right wing site is having an orgasm over the early NV exit polling. See this article:

http://www.lvrj.com/news/33433079.html

Gist: democrats have outnumbered republicans during early voting dramatically. But the exit polling reveals that the race is tied among those who have already voted.
So their conclusion: when the republicans vote on nov4, they will outnumber dems and easily win NV.

Can someone take a look please?

GirlFromSAfrica said...

Interesting fact from the Go Vote Colorado homepage. 49.2% of eligible CO voters have already voted. Most by mail-n ballot (37.8%), and an additional 11.4% from early voting.

There are still some 650,000 mail-in ballots outstanding.

HALF of CO voters have voted. That's huge.

WV - prewar ! Need I say anything?

dsimon said...

PeteKent: The only seats that the Democrats are certain to win is Virginia and New Mexico. If we snatch away Louisiana and New Jersey, and then get Lieberman, we will have the majority!!HAHAHAHAH

ARE YOU READY FOR MAJORITY LEADER MITCH MCCONNELL, LIBS?


Absolutely true...assuming Republicans hold Colorado, and Alaska, and Oregon, and North Carolina, and Minnesota, and...(and Mitch holds onto his own seat, of course).

The joke might work better if it included all the races!

zwrite said...

REAL CLEAR POLITICS IS CHEATING

Has anyone else noticed how Real Clear Politics is playing with/CHEATING with its numbers?

On THREE occasions this week, it has taken out a poll with a double-digit Obama lead from its weekly summary/average although the poll had occurred that week.

For example, right now it is averaging the polls taken between Oct. 23 and Oct. 29 and it TAKES OUT the Pew poll, which is listed as having taken place between Oct. 23 and Oct. 26. The Pew poll was included in the RCP average for ONE DAY.

Yesterday, it did the SAME thing with the Newsweek poll. A few days ago, it did the SAME thing with the previous CBS poll.

This seems to be a BLATANT attempt to reduce the RCP average.

Shalom,
ZWrite

Jonathan said...

Seems to me the election comes down entirely to PA. Obama can't possibly win VA, FL, IN, MO, or NC. OH is likely to go red in my view. PA probably will too at the end of the night. I know I'll get howls here but I would bet dinner on it - McCain will win.

I voted Obama already.

Linden said...

I have been making phone calls on behalf of Obama and Franken at the University of Minnesota, and I am a little nervous about Franken. Obama has a very strong appeal here of course, but I am finding plenty of Obama voters who are not completely sold on Franken.

Green said...

The NV numbers from that article are interesting... not sure about that poll.

How can the Dem numbers of EVs be about 1 1/2 - 2 to 1 over Repubs and the race be so close for EVs?

Counter intuitive.

RumAGoGO said...

There's still on state on that map that is almost white. Missouri. Don't give up on it. The turnout efforts that are being put together right now for Obama are going to be unprecedented. We need a serious GOTV effort in St Louis proper and county. If you live near by, please come over and help. I'm looking at you in particular Illinois. Do your Senator a solid, will ya?

Green said...

Four days of massive slime will take it's toll on Obama...

Where and when will the counter-slime occur? Gotta have it.

That, unfortunately, is the state of America.

Going downhill before our eyes.
(GM market cap about 2Bil... what a joke,,, downhill folks)

raizen2kids said...

We identified ourselves as calling for the Democratic Party. We actually called for Obama, Shaheen and the CD 1 Dem. Party candidate, Shea-Porter. These were GOTV calls, with an ID flavor. We asked everyone if they knew where their polling place was, did they need a ride, etc.

As to the undecided voter, I talked about Obama being for the middle class. (I probably should have said he would be the best to fix the economy; the script didn't cover this. We actually weren't supposed to be trying to persuade anyone, just find out who was voting for Obama, so we could get them out to vote on Tuesday.) She was worried about his safety and then talked about being upset that someone had hung Sarah Palin in effigy.

I've made a lot of voter ID calls over the years. This result just seemed so overwhelmingly positive for Obama. Lots of folks talked about the need for change. One guy said he worked for Edwards in the primary, but was now working for Obama. NH voters are very interesting, because they are used to getting a lot of attention, due to the early NH primary. Even when I was canvassing in VA at the beginning of October, I hit a couple McCain supporters. Tonight, I didn't hit a single one.

politicalcynic said...

Junebugamy:

1. There are no internals on that polling, so I'm not certain about the numbers. We don't know anything was accounted for other than party ID.

2. I would argue that it DOES tend to indicate a slim Obama win in NV-consistent with the current polls. Since Republicans have generally had the edge in early and absentee balloting, I would argue that this poll is a reversal of prior patterns and indicates a high potential democratic turnout on election day as well. Having a democrat with ANY lead in early voting in NV may weigh in favor of the democrat on election day.

3. Although we want everything, we aren't likely to get it. Remember, the best path right now for Obama is not through NV-that's a backstop. The easy path right now is the early win-the norther/New England/Rustbelt Kerry states, hold onto NH and PA, and then win Iowa and VA. That's enough for the EV victory. After that, everything else (including NV) would be gravy.

And Ohio looks good to.

I recommend a strong dose of PTSED treatment (see my prior post) to calm your nerves.

DiZmO4 said...

One thing I would be interested in is the effect early voting has on a tightening race or a potentially tightening race.

If 1 week ago obama had a +4 point lead when early voting began but that lead narrowed to +1 by election day -- does that necessarily mean that Obama should be receiving +4 in the early votes or does polling not really apply to early voters?

Second point I'd make is that polling is meaningless if people don't actually show up at the polls to vote. People can SAY they're voting for Obama, but if they never actually vote -- they look at polling data and become over confident or complacent -- then McCain can make up a lot of ground very quickly.

Ultimately, the only numbers that matter are the REAL VOTE TOTALS on Nov 4.

VOTE OBAMA!

David said...

Re: the Nevada early vote.

1) The article itself indicates that the early voters are going for Obama over McCain, and also that the guy who does predictions on Rasmussen's site predicts Nevada going for Obama.

2) The "Dems are voting in bigger numbers early" data in the article refers to Reno and Las Vegas, and doesn't mention the huge Republican early voting margins in rural Nevada. The article implies this, by stating that McCain's (substantial) support comes largely from the rural counties.

3) Based on early voting numbers, it looks unlikely that there will be a huge surge of Republicans available to vote in rural Nevada come election day. The early voting numbers show huge turnout for early voting in the rural part of the state - the numbers: 443,211 early votes, of which 241,861 are from Clark County and 68,258 in Washoe county. That puts 133,092 outside those two counties. In 2004, only 125,194 votes came in outside these two counties for the whole election... but big chunks of Vegas and Reno appear to have not voted yet.

In short, my guess is that 1) Obama is winning now and 2) Obama has more support in Vegas & Reno who have not yet voted and 3) Obama wins the state handily.

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

Okay, everyone take a deep breath and realize how good everything is right now. I was at Camp Obama in mid September when this very site had O down (Palin-mania was in full swing) in both popular and electoral vote. O is in the driver's seat, and his strategy is crushing McCain's string of tactics. Think about this nugget - a Republican Presidential candidate is having to campaign in Missouri, Indiana and North Carolina the week before election day. Not taking a victory lap, or some half serious grip n grin for cash, but real live campaigning. Win or lose those states, just minimizing the amount of time and money the GOP can spend trying to turn around PA, NM, IA, NH and ME 2, much less keeping VA and Fl red, is advantage Obama. So its all good.

Not saying you let up on the real work, but take a cue from the man and let the drama blow over you. As for me, I'm going to my third Missouri suburb in the last 4 weeks to rock out GOTV. If form holds, it'll be uplifting and I'll meet yet more people from backgrounds very different than mine who see this for the critical choice it is. If I see a McCain volunteer, though, it will be a first.

Kittles93, all contact starts with you identifying yourself as calling with the campaign. So yes, people could lie to you to get you off the phone, or out of their yard. Still, I haven't gotten that vibe - McCain people are very willing to tell you off, and there are few true undecideds. I think the polls oversample them a bit. I also suspect if there really are 5% or more undecideds, those are the folks who will only vote if turnout is lower than expected (that is, they don't have to wait for ).

elockpi - the mathematical equation of Obama's odds e to the power of lock times pi (because you just can't have math - or an Obama event - without pi).

Minnesota Mike said...

PPP

Minnesota

Obama 57
McCain 41

Franken 45
Coleman 40
Barkley 14

KQuark said...

Nate for one. Do you ever watch Faux News? Yes they will fix a poll if they think they can get away with it. Second I don't trust any polls with undecided numbers way 2-3 points above 6%. I just don't believe there are that many undecided voters out there. Worse I think how the pollsters ask who they support, the order of the questions and the follow up questions can affect the way people answer the polls. Sampling error and bias are one thing but we are dealing with human beings and I also deeply believe as a scientist in the Heisenberg Principle and how it affects the outcome of experiments.

Voice of Reason said...

Republican Nightmare Scenario: Youthquake + African American Awakening + Third Party Candidates + Discouraged Republican Base = Obama Wins in Indiana, Georgia, Montana, North Dakota, and Arizona... 400+ EV

Okay, it's probably not going to be that crazy. But most of the X-factors this year, other than the mythical Bradley Effect, favor Obama. I think the shocker, if there is any on election day, is going to be by how much Obama wins. It will be closer in the South than the Republicans want to admit.

I'll say it again: Virginia is a lock for Obama. His closing campaign is tailor-made for Virginia voters: classy and conservative in the best sense of the word. Thank you Nancy Pfotenhauer for quoting George Allen, we won't forget this.

It's 1980, people, and Ronald Reagan is a black liberal Democrat with a funny name.

Timmy said...

Jonathan, you seriously think Obama will lose VA, FL, IN, MO, NC, OH AND PA? Are you serious? He may not win all of them, but hell, even Kerry and Gore won PA.

Mpaj said...

MN Rocks!

However, I still think Coleman will win.

Versha said...

17% is a big number for undecideds, HOWEVER, the poll lumps together undecideds and those who refused to say which candidate they're supporting. A bad idea, but that's why the number is so high.

I would like to know what Mr. Silver thinks about the LA poll, because the Obama campaign here is absolutely elated! We had such great Democratic turnout in early voting - if we can keep the trends up on Election Day, I hope we surprise the rest of the nation.

NickPP said...

People, JMac is putting his eggs in the following basket.281-257 McCain victory and this is how.
BO retains Kerry + IA+CO+NV+NM -PA = 257.
Recent polls i.e. Mason Dixon and FOX is really making me nervous. NC,OH,FL and VA are too close to call. If BO can pull any of those four states in his column then he can lose PA and still win this. IMO, this will be a nail biter and for that reason, I don't agree with Nate's winning % chances on any of the candidates. It should be 60-40% Obama.
Also what the hell is wrong with these college kids? Get off your lazy butts and vote for crying out loud!!

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

Not trying to jinx things, but when even Dan Rather is remarking on how relaxed Obama is 5 days out (just said it on Rachel Maddow) you have to think the O-man either has this thing on lockdown (or he's got a really good stash).

pason - how Sarah Palin thinks passion is spelled.

UppityTexan said...

*sigh* Tx. Poor Poor Ol' Tejas.

23% of the U.T. poll believe Obama is a muslim...

Guess that's why Obama told us down here to vote early and get on the bus to NM, OH, FL, & MO tp GOTV.

David said...

Here's a post one of my friends made on Facebook a couple days ago:

I went down to the “No on 8” HQ in Hillcrest yesterday to hold signs against Prop 8. You might be wondering why we were preaching to the choir in Hillcrest instead of going to a place like National City; I know I was. The San Diego branch says they’ve made a lot of gains already talking to undecideds, so now the goal is to clarify what a vote on 8 means to the base. According to their internal numbers, 10% of people who would mean to vote “no” might accidentally vote “yes.” Yikes.

This issue is causing a ton of confusion. I was holding a sign on the corner of Robinson and 7th Ave, and this lady put her head out of a car window and screamed that we needed to get the f*&% out of her neighborhood. Then a few minutes later she walked back over and said, “Uh, my girlfriend told me you’re actually the ones trying to help gay marriage . . . I thought you were the other guys.” Then she held a sign with us. Apparently, this sort of thing happens all the time, on both sides. People who want to support equal rights feel they should be putting in a “yes” vote, and people who want to eliminate gay marriage feel inclined to mark “no.” I wonder if this was intentional strategy on the part of the “yes” group. It seems likely to backfire, since most people tend to vote “no” when they either don’t understand or care about an issue, and I’d put money on sympathetic but uninformed “no” voters getting it right more often than similar voters on the “yes” side. After all, reading comprehension is involved.

To give you an idea of the general make-up of the “no on 8” field worker, during the debrief one volunteer commented that “there seem to be too many gays holding up signs. We don’t look very diverse. Does anyone know any straight people?” You could hear the crickets in response, crickets who were also apparently gay. This was kind of a running gag for me all day. I’d introduced myself as straight when I got there, but since I was wearing my Communist worker hat and Frida Kahlo hoodie, the label didn’t seem to stick. After I told one worker that I’d recently gotten married, she patted my hand and said, “Stay strong!”

We need more help if Prop 8 is going to be defeated. If you want to get involved in the final push to get out the vote against 8, next weekend there’s going to be a huge phone banking drive statewide, as well as a large visibility demonstration in Hillcrest and Normal Heights. It’s all part of a counter-event to “The Call,” where 40,000 “yes” advocates (many from out of state) are expected to flood Qualcomm Stadium to pray and fast for 8’s passage. You can go here for more info about “The Call”: http://www.thecall.com/Articles/1000038100/TheCall/Get_Involved/Facedown_40/Day_6_Video.aspx

Here’s the info if you want to get involved in “Making the Right Call”: http://www.noonprop8.com/events

David said...

oops, wrong thread, sorry!

Geoffrie Kramer said...

for those interested in North Dakota, I am a 23 year old who grew up in Bismarck, but now live in the Twin Cities, MN. I actually jusst spoke to my 70 year grandfather tonight. He has been a wheat farmer his entire life in the heart of southwestern North Dakota. He us generally a pretty middle of the road guy who tells me that there are things he likes and dislikes about both candidates. He did say that McCain is "against farmers" which may really hurt him in such a rural area. The other edge on that sword is that Obama is viewed as being very anti-gun, which could neutralize McCain's shortcomings on ag policy.

Bottom line, I would be tremendously proud of ND if it went blue, but I have serious doubts. I really don't see Obama winning there. The good news is that it won't matter!

GaMeS said...

Nate,

I, personally, was not complaining about FOX's sample -- they don't stratify or weight, and that's acceptable.

However, I believe there was a very subtle -- but very significant -- manipulation of the poll here.

The topline result: Obama 47, McCain 44. That's a spread of 3 points, within the margin of error, enabling them to plausibly argue that the race is now at a "dead heat."

But look at this:

A sub-sample of 924 has been defined as likely voters (LV), with a margin of error of ±3 percentage points. Democrat LV n=379, ±5; Republican LV n=364, ±5; independent LV n=146, ±8 Obama supporters LV n=439, ±5; McCain supporters LV n=405, ±5

So, Obama's percentage is (# Obama supporters)/(# Likely voters), right? Well, here's what you get: 439/924 = 47.51%. Using normal rules for rounding (0.50 rounds up, 0.49 rounds down, as any fourth grader knows), this would round off to Obama 48%, one point higher than they report.

"But wait!" you say. "Maybe they're just rounding fractions down!"

Ah, but look at McCain's numbers: 405/924 = 43.83% -- which they correctly rounded up to McCain 44%.

Any other time, I'd chalk this up to a random math error -- but the fact that they correctly rounded McCain's fraction up while they rounded Obama's down, and this just happens to get them within 3 points (the +/- 3% margin of error) so they can spin the "it's a dead heat" angle ... well, it's just a bit too much for me to give them the benefit of the doubt.


WV: ralingsm. (n) Climax during the act of copulating with railing or bannisters.

George In Florida said...

Nate:

I'm suprised that you thought the results from Ras were good.

The poll went to +5 not because of good new polling, but because we dropped Sunday. That data (probably) had a tie or +1 for McCain, given the trend data. On two threads yesterday, I posetd that I expected Ras to go to +5, and thats what happened.

Now we'll drop Moday, which probably was a +8 day, so Tuesday/Wednesday are probably a +4.

If tommorow, Ras goes to +6, that would be good results for obama, since it would probably indicate a double digit daily sample (or another >3 sigma day). If it goes to +7 or more, game over, pack up the bags for McCain.

If however, we see a 3 or a 4, it indcates no signifcant change from the Obamamercial.

I'm waiting for 9:30

Jay said...

Just in time, I've got you where I want you.

Steady as she goes, boys...

Steady...
Steady...
Steazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

What? It's wednesday? And I have spent the last 96 hours face down in a Cobb salad? My friends, that's not change we can believe in.

midestu: a short-lived chunky soup variant of RU486.

Wa7th said...
This post has been removed by the author.
bushworstever said...

A Republiscum wet dream:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/23/an-electoral-college-doomsday/

Wonder if it means they've given up on McCain and this is their new hope...

George In Florida said...

I personally am not too worried by the FOX poll. It did have a higher ratio of Reps. Also, I've seen my share (and probably a couple of other people's shares) of >3 sigma polls, like the one I was refering to on Ras.

Even with that poll, the average went up today, without the results of the Obamamercial in the sample.

Brian said...

I caught about 3 minutes of Karl Rove on that Greta the Witch show on Fox News tonight. He actually made a good point. She asked him if he thought that the 30 minute ad for Obama last night was a good investment. He said something to the effect of, Obama spent probably $8 million for the tv time and 33 million or so watched it, so that's roughly about $.25 per person. He also commented on how streamlined it was, and overall seemed to think it was a great investment.

I agree with him (for the first time in my life). Another reason why Obama and his staff are running the best campaign in recent memory...possibly all-time.

Lisa Hunter said...

InkStain,
Here's hoping it's not close. An unfaithful elector wouldn't have to switch all the way to McCain -- throwing a vote to Hillary could be sufficient.

obamagetsit said...

I always wondered this- are populations factored into polls? For instance, out of a pool of 1000 Texans, if 600 are voting McCain and 400 are voting Obama are the respondents who are from urban areas like Houston weighted more? I may be missing something- but isn't it fact that a city like Houston will bring hundreds of thousand of voters to the polls, while smaller towns (probably?) won't.

So while Obama might lose 60-40 out of a 1000 person sample, what if he won the Houston portion of the sample say, 65-35? Does this get weighted into the poll result? I just wonder because it seems obvious that metropolitan areas will bring out more voters than rural areas in many cases (I know there a a lot of rural areas- but do they exactly equal the big city populations in every state?).

Just wondering if any of you stat gurus might know... Btw- great site; I wish I could stop paying attention to the numbers and just wait until next Tuesday night. Good night from the Midwest all!

Word Verification, "Sersta": An unprecedented shift in favor of the polling leader just days before an election (usually preceded by a three-headed dragon-like flurry of campaign events which get 48 or more hrs of positive press time and are well received by a majority of voters).

"The Obama campaign enjoyed the unusual phenomenon of a SERSTA, which was first identified on the Friday preceding the 2008 United States presidential election and continued (in acceleration) to the polls on that fateful Tuesday that America finally turned the corner on The Politics of Fear".

Obama 2008 Election in a Nutshell (semi-satire); there may exist some typos yet- it's late here in Milwaukee, and I've no time for reading what I just wrote... Let's win this election for Obama/Biden and end our addiction to 538.com!! PS: Does anyone actually pay attention to all the McCain/Palin ads that have surfaced on here? lol. J/k Nate- you gotta pay the bills like anyone else!

jb said...

I'm not normally a *chicken little,* but I'm reading more & more stuff, about *vote flipping* happening again. Together with the years of voter suppression prep, I'm starting to understand why McCain seems so sure Pa will go his way.
And the more troubling thing, is that the unlike the ACORN non-story, the Media's not covering this real story.
So, people, don't be surprised, if we wake up Weds morning, and McCain is the Pres-elect.

Caredwen said...

"Before you say "no, way": consider this (if you are old enough to have come of age before the mid-1990's): would you have ever dreamed that the GOP would actually use impeachment against Clinton over, essentially, a sex scandal??"

The Republicans overplayed their hand and lost so many seats in '98 as a result. They'd have to be morons to do it again.

Although given some of the things we've seen from them this season, "they'd have to be morons" is certainly no guarantee against anything.

Conymp: A small, mischievous Republican?

Uma said...

Alan:

Yes, it's "GIVEN" not "AND." I guess Nate is avoiding technical language.

Uma said...

Quadrivium:

The probability of a particular number of Obama EV's comes from adding the probabilities of all scenarios leading to that number. The sheer number of scenarios in some case may compensate for the fact that the probability of each scenario by itself is small. The argument you provided traced onlt one scenario. Even if it is the most likely scenario for getting that number of EV's, it's not the only one.

Uma said...

games:

I agree with you. Good catch

Greekgeek said...

Natalie - I'm a lurker here, but I just wanted to say thank you for that Flat Stanley catch. A little lightheartedness during the home stretch.

Corey Bunje Bower said...

Colorado is arguably a must-win for McCain. PPP just released their final poll -- with a sample size of 2,023. Not only do they have Obama up 10, but they report that 65% of people have already voted and that Obama's up 17 among early voters.

If they're anywhere close, it is *not* looking good for McCain

John said...

Tracking Nate's Swing State Win%s
October 23-30: FL NC MO OH IN NV
Spreadsheet and bar chart graphic
http://wallingconsulting.blogspot.com/2008/10/swing-state-wins-oct-30.html

Scott said...

the PPP Colorado poll is just stunning. Perhaps the best news for Obama that we've seen so far.

They claim that 65% of likely voters have already voted, and voted 58-41 for Obama. The rest favor McCain 50-47, but that would need to move to something ridiculous like 67-33 for McCain to overtake votes Obama already has in the bank.

What's more, the sample size is positively gigantic: 2023, so the margin is a super low 2.2%.

WOW!

If this poll resembles reality in the slightest, CO has already been won.

I suppose the most important state to watch at this point is PA, because without a heroic comeback there McCain is done.

Joe Neri said...

Thanks, Nate, for your work in the state polling. It helps prevent anxiety attacks in particular friends of mine every time a national poll shows any movement in McCain's direction.

I swear, but liberals hit the panic button faster than stock brokers do.

Mark said...

Thanks again for the great analysis, Nate.

With respect to the poll fap, keep in mind that while you, your methodology and your statistics are neutral, your readers are not. For months now you have been publishing Dem positive data combined with commentary favouring their candidate. Your site is going to attract the kind of people that don't want polls to be neutral. If they see numbers that don't suit their cause then they are going to unleash the fury of the gods and blast it as corrupt, flawed, or both.

Thats why I love how you handle these people - when you see qualitative or quantitative analysis that reeks of bias or bad science, you bring the hurt down on it, regardless of whether it's a partisan on the left or the right.

Scruff said...

Just saw my first Jeremiah Wright ad.

From the National Republican Trust PAC, unauthorized by McCain.

It's getting ugly.

Eric said...

Uh, scruff? Have you been in a cave since, oh, August? McCain's been pretty damn ugly without this PAC's help for quite some time now. Desperation will do that to a guy.

Scruff said...

Not a cave, Illinois. We only get to see the national ads out here.

I hadn't seen a PAC ad yet, so looks like they are going all out the last weekend.

I hadn't seen a Wright ad at all this whole season. And I also just saw the one with the green, red and yellow (present) buttons saying we don't need a chicken in the White House, since Barack voted present 129 times.

These ads were on the CBS morning show today, I see some of it just about every day, and hadn't seen these ads before.