10.28.2008

Today's Polls, 10/28

Stop me if you've heard this one before. Although the national trackers look slightly stronger for John McCain than they did a couple days ago, Barack Obama once again had an exceptionally good day in the state-level numbers.



To review the national polling situation briefly: Gallup and Research 2000 moved toward McCain, and IBD/TIPP moved toward Obama; the other five trackers were essentially flat. Among the one-off national polls, Pew and ARG moved toward Obama, and Ipsos moved toward McCain.

I increased the sensitivity of the trendline curve today, and will continue to do so over the course of the final week of the campaign. If there is any late movement, we want to be sure that we capture it. Even so, the trendline remains essentially flat, with perhaps just a slight bit (a few tenths of a point) of retreat off of Obama's peak numbers.

A brief aside about the Pew poll, which pegs the race at Obama +15. Pew has a very good reputation. Their polls, however, have also had about a 3-point Democratic lean this cycle. There may be good reasons why a poll leans a certain way; for instance, Pew calls cellphones, whereas most other pollsters do not. But a +15 from Pew isn't quite as meaningful as if, say, that result were coming from Gallup, which has been very neutral overall this year.

At the state level, these numbers ought mostly to speak for themselves. We have yet more evidence that John McCain has big problems in Virginia and Colorado. And keep an eye on those Nevada numbers, because if they creep into the Virginia/Colorado range, then John McCain could very easily pull off a miracle in Pennsylvania and still lose the election.

In Ohio and Florida, furthermore, which were two states that had looked to have tightened a bit, we now have more polling out showing material leads for Barack Obama. With numbers like these, John McCain has less leeway pull off the gamble that I advocated in the New York Post this weekend, essentially pulling out of Florida and hoping that the base carries the state for him on its own.

Don't neglect the two fresh polls of Indiana, from Howey-Gauge and Research 2000; each suggest that the state is a toss-up, and lend a bit of stability to our Indiana estimate after some weird polling there last week.

The one state where John McCain gets a comparatively good number is in Pennsylvania, where Rasmussen has him down by "just" 7 points, and InsiderAdvantage by "just" 8. Pennsylvania appears to have tightened some -- into the high single digits rather than the low double digits -- but it's still polling better for Obama than at almost any other point of the campaign.

256 comments

Seretse said...

grandpa john said...
Could someone tell me why PEW is such an outlier???

how do we know he is, the internals are not suspect

It is being referred to as such because it's lead is almost double the average. It could be a accurate poll but it is unlikely to be.

Clarissa said...

Beamman- No, I wouldn't be worried yet. 2 reasons-

1. Small subsample. The smaller the sample the greater the margin of error so any subgroup is more likely to be off by a larger amount than the whole sample. We would need a similar result across multiple polls. As it is polling of early voters has been erratic thus far.

2. Already voted is both early voters in person and absentee. Absentee voters are disproportianately seniors with health conditions that make waiting in line or travelling to the polling place inconvenient compared to the final voting public. Seniors are disroportionately Reps and Florida is disproportionately senior. When early on site voting started the requested absentee was 3:2 R's over D's. It will take time to even that out.

Also, no it won't really amplify movement to a candidate. Early voting softens all movement by locking in some at todays numbers that may have changed tommorrow. I think pollster looked at previous elections and saw that people who would have changed were about 1% of early voters - and they didn't seem to trend either way. But if tommorrow there was a change that caused, say 5% of the Florida public to go from Obama to McCain it would hurt McCain that there was early voting because those who would have already voted for him would still vote for him and those who early voted but would have switched (probably a smaller portion of early voters because if you were unsure you would want to wait until you were sure so lets say 2% of the Obama early vote) would not be able to change like they would if they waited. McCains early voting numbers, however, would also mute a late Obama surge like Obama's mute his and maybe to a greater degree if the LA Times is correct.

justin32099 said...

"When McCain was ahead after the R.N.C., we heard regularly from Nate et al that the state polls would catch up with Obama's improving national numbers in a week or so. Why does the same not apply now?"

The model reacts differently to trends now than it did two months ago, I believe.

BobEL said...

Here is a scientific study of the what goes on in the minds of undecided voters.

sciagram said...

Nate: How do you explain the Diageo/Hotline number MSNBC reported this evening, that 48% of early voters have voted for Obama, and 47% for McCain? That doesn't seem consistent with the numbers that have been reported from individual states, which all show Obama with huge leads among early voters. I am finding this worrying!!

justin32099 said...

sciagram--

The total sample is about 800 LV, so 17% of that is about 140 people. There's very little significant to be drawn out of the preferences of 140 people.

JJ said...

Wow. That is a hell of a lot of blue

Clarissa said...

National early voting number include all states. the Obama campaign is focussing on early voting in swing states but a big state like Texas that is seen as solid and conducting early voting with a less significant Dem groundgame would be expected to display the traditional R lean of early voting. Also, small subsamples=wide variance.

ZY said...

@Fernando,

Would you email your reasoning to Rams, please post an answer here if you get one back.

TeeVee for Me said...

Friends/colleagues of mine report between 3 and 6 hour waits in Atlanta today. And they all did it, though it is COLD here!

Mark Hussein in VA said...

PorridgeGun, I tend to agree with much of your thoughts, and I especially agree that Colorado is likely in the sights for the Regressive theft machine. And, frankly, I'd be quietly crapping bricks right now if it weren't for my wonderful state of VA stepping up to the plate and giving Senator Obama the firewall to replace CO, should it be stolen.

As long as PA is as safe as it appears to be, VA will provide the insurance necessary against CO's theft. But, I certainly think we're not looking at a 375 election any more. It is disheartening to know that more people are moving to McCain right now, despite the frightening possibility of Sarah Palin getting ANYWHERE NEAR a position of power. It makes me wonder if 40% of America is just a PeteKent clone.

Greg Kuperberg said...

phil: Maybe the Alaska fudge?

Actually a half point was also missing in the Senate projection before yesterday's update. I tried to post the question then but I may only have previewed it instead of posting it.

BrEnTpDeLiA said...

So can we all have a 3 cheers for GOvernor Crist sticking his thumb in the eyes of Republicans here in Miami and Florida at large. When I was on line at my eraly voting precinct people were grumbling about hte 8hrs a day adn 4 hrs on weekends. Today Crist opened them all up for 12 hrs a day for the rest of the early period. Congratulations to Crist for continuing to prove that he is one of the less cynical Republicans. Can't help but wonder what this election would look like with Charlie Crist as the VP pick. Now if we could just get Crist to man up and admit the marriage constituional amendment is bigoted and unnecessarly

vkngwmnNJ said...

The cherries and sprinkles on my Obama sundae: GA, AZ, AK. A girl can dream.....whats going on up there anyway? Any word of polls since the ADN endorsement and the Stevens7(felonies)?

Darío said...

Gore Effect for McCain in Arizona?

Publius said...

Some concern trolling about PA is appropriate, but not much. So here goes: I lived in PA for most of my life in the Rust Belt part of the state. Yes, PA is full of racist rednecks. Yes, a good chunk of PA is blood-red Pennsyltucky. But another good chunk of PA is heavily Democratic: Philly and its burbs, Pittsburgh, Erie, and Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. Those areas alone have more than enough Dem votes to offset the Pennsyltucky votes. Ironically, John Murtha's supposedly racist district contains Johnstown and much of Fayette and Cambria Counties, which were blue to purple in 00 and 04.)

I don't buy that PA Dems are going to turn away from the Dems just because Obama is the nominee. The polling numbers from PA seem to indicate that O has managed to sell himself to the blue-collar Dems. (Unless, ZOMGZ, they're all just lying to the pollsters because they're run by the unions and they don't want to lose their jobs!!!1)

And there should be massive AA turnout in Philly to help offset the Joe the Redneck vote - the city cast 450K Dem votes in 2000, 540K in 2005, so who knows what the ceiling will be this year.

kittles93 said...

Interesting post by Ambinder at the Atlantic.

Why the McCain campaign would want their thoughts on current polling in the public eye strikes me as odd. And likely, used to boost morale.

Weird.

GregM said...

Greg Kuperberg said: I'm confused because the total percentages for the Senate on the right do not add up to the projected total for the Senate on the left. On the right we have:

14+.97+.93+.87+.75+.66+.56+.28+.25+.22+.03+3*.01 = 19.55

for the expected number of Democratic victories. And I gather that there are 37 Democrats in the Senate who are not up for re-election. That makes a total of 56.55. But the total on the left is 57.0. What gives? Where does the other .45 of a Senator come from?


Good point, though I get different numbers from today's graph on the right, I estimate:

52 + .98 + .955 + .9 + .8 + .68 + .57 + .45+.33+.21+.1+.03+.005 = 58.01

But it should be 57.0+2(independent senators)=59.0 based on the number in the chart at left...Could there be an "off by one" error somewhere in Nate's model?

sunshine fortress said...

First!!

SenshiNeko said...

Today's ASU/Cronkite poll for Arizona is out...

McCain 46
Obama 44

Two point difference, and MoE is 3.

http://www.azpbs.org/horizon/poll/2008/10-28-08.htm

David said...

PresidentHussein said...

Though the mills of God grind slowly,
Yet they grind exceeding small;
Though with patience He stands waiting,
With exactness grinds He all.
-- Longfellow

60 yrs in the making, justice is nigh. In '48 when Truman, though facing a sweeping defeat, decreed a robust civil rights plank for the Dem platform and Humphrey intoned that we must, in Lincoln's words, "do the right, as God has given us to know the right," the racists bitterly decamped. A body formerly known as the Party of Lincoln invited them in, gave them succor, and crafted a cynical "southern strategy." Bad move. Though for a time they prospered, in the end the infection must prove fatal.

This unholy union is now reduced to a mash-up of Dixiecrat legatees and fellow travelers: prairie gunslingers, anti-tax fetishists, end times Rapturists, militiamen and Millenarians, jingoists and misanthropes, survivalists and skinheads, and the odd secessionist witch doctor. The infestation has taken over the organism. Soon there will be a reckoning between the cerebral cons, who've long been pleased to pal up with riffraff, and the wingnut residuum that has found its avatar in Bible Spice. What, pray tell, does David Brooks have in common with Rush Limbaugh and Michele Bachmann? Will principled GOPers purge their party of its deadly parasite and rise anew? Will they at last stand for something, like Truman and Lincoln? Or will the Powells and Buckleys and Welds and McClellans migrate increasingly to our side and leave the vermin and bottom feeders to embrace in their fetid backwater and sink slowly into the ooze. I grant them this: End times are near.

Meanwhile, the Dems have a nation to rebuild and a world to lead. Pretty that this came about through the strivings of an unassuming black American, a legacy of what Truman, Humphrey, and numberless others went to their political graves for. 2008 will mark the true beginning of 21st century American politics. Thanks, God, 'preciate it. Looking forward to fresher air.


++

Lawrence said...

538 getting mentioned on The Rachel Maddow Show is GREAT NEWS!!! for Nate Silver!!!

itsSlipK said...

EVERYONE WORRIED ABOUT PENNSYLVANIA READ!

LOOK HERE: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_mccain_vs_obama-244.html

MCCAIN HAS NOT LED IN ONE POLL SINCE APRIL 24TH !

NEED I REMIND YOU HILLARY CONCEDED JUNE 7TH.... SO THE SO CALLED PUMAS OUT THERE ARE FULL OF IT.

OBAMA HAS HELD A LEAD IN PA THE WHOLE GENERAL ELECTION, HE'S NOT ABOUT TO LOSE BECAUSE JOHN MCCAIN IS FINALLY MAKING A RUN FOR IT WITH A WEEK TO GO.

OBAMA'S BASE IS BUILT.

SORRY FOR CAPS :P

Bob X said...

"H IN FLORIDA said...
NATE: Any thoughts on how the undecided voters might go?"

Bush Senior put it best:
The undecided could, literally, go either way!

bushworstever said...

As for the undecideds:

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/late_deciders_in_recent_presid.php

Listen to my Hype said...

My husband can't wait until Nov 5.
Neither can my bosses =).

The comments today on the threads have been awesome, I have not moved reading most of them,I cried, smiled, got frustrated and am a bonified paranoid person and won't sleep peacefully until my guy wins. VOTE!
Changed my name a few times on here, but have been here for a while.

Bill and Barack here tomorrow, I saw Barack with Hillary last week. I don't think my legs will hold me this go round. Darn it.
~Yari-word verification of which I was so obviously not-firse!

BrEnTpDeLiA said...

one last thing we haven't discussed. This idea that if Hillary was running she would be ahead by 40 in Penn or whatever. I have seen zero proof that there is any appreciable difference now between Obama and a generic dem. Whatever Obama loses to the racist idiot factor he gains from the "Oh my god I can't wait to vote for Obama factor". So in conclusion I'd say in a state like Penn maybe hillary does 1-3% better than Obama but in N.C, Ga, S.C, etc(in other words in the districts that have previously uninterested large black populations) Obama gains more from bringing people in than he loses to racists.

PS How smart do Howard Dean and Obama's 50 state strategy look now! Remeber the derisive snickers? "Hey we've been losing for 30 years, why change now?" COngrats to everyone who believed that the south could be brought back by telling the truth

jf said...

Regarding the possiblity of election stealing...

Republicans can probably suppress a small percentage of votes by vote caging and other techniques, but this only affects an already very close vote-count, as in one with less than a 1/2 percentage difference. To truly steal an election in any given state, Republicans need...

1) 1) A republican secretary of state to limit access to voting and certify results, as Katherine Harris did in 2000 and Ken Blackwell did in 2004.

...and(if there's a larger number of votes they need to change or disappear):

2) a preponderance of electronic voting machines to hack. (And I'm not counting 'optical scanner' as such.)

Fortunately for Obama, he's currently winning handily in a whole bunch of Bush states without both factors. Ken Blackwell is gone in Ohio, replaced by a Democrat. VA has mixed voting, but the Sec of the Commonwealth is a Democrat. NC is mixed but has a Dem Sec of State. NV is all electronic, but has a Dem Sec of State. FL has a Republican Sec of State, but not electronic voting machines. And for good measure, MO has no electronic voting AND an Dem Sec of State.

IN is the only toss-up state with a Republican Sec of State AND a large number of electronic voting machines.

Sources:
http://www.sciam.com/slideshow.cfm?id=how-voting-machines-work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_(U.S._state_government)

John said...

Tracking Nate's Swing State Win%s

October 23-28: FL NC MO OH IN NV

Spreadsheet and bar chart:
http://wallingconsulting.blogspot.com/2008/10/first-blog.html

Nate said...

So I don't have to do the hard work...what is this 286 EV scenario that has jumped up so prominently???

Concern Troll said...

A few people here are saying McCain hasn't "Closed the deal". What exactly does that mean? That since Obama's poll numbers aren't going up, McCain has a better chance of winning? So what about McCain "closing the sale"? If the polls suddenly showed McCain +5, would he have "closed the sale?"

So even if Obama hasn't closed the sale, this doesn't give him less of a chance of winning. McCain has even less of an opportunity to "close the sale".

jkrnyc said...

@kittles83
I too work in PA. In politics. My bad on the Rendell number, but it's still all GOTV and voter protection. It's not that I think Obama won't win PA, just that I don't think it's in the bag. And that seems to be how the campaign is treating it, and they have internals. Just sayin'

Dan said...

You guys have the Colorado and PA Insider Advantage results mixed up. See http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/15024.html .

Also, shouldn't the Zogby national tracking sample be divided by 5?

jkrnyc said...

@kittles93
I, too, wok in PA - in politics. My bad on the Rendell numbers, but I stand by my argument that GOTV and voter protection are key. I'm not saying Obama won't win the state - I think he will - but I don't assume that it's in the bag, as so many seem to. The Obama campaign doesn't seem to be treating it as in the bag either , and they have internals. Just sayin'...

Ivan said...

And now they're saying that Obama will win ONLY because he rejected public financing. OMFG. Some people don't know how to lose, and we thought McCain was actually a credible, decent individual.

EmonOkari said...

Never underestimate the power of the word 'Socialist' and 'Tax and Spend'. Every single secret Obama supporter (in my heavy-handed "You gotta be a Republican" family ) has been scared off this week. They are all back in McCain's camp. *go-figure*

Bozo said...

Eric said... "Most surprising Obama flip would be GA..."

Actually for me the most surprising would be Montana, or North Dakota if MT doesn't flip. GA has enough AA population that they could flip it with a good GOTV effort. I guess it's the libertarian wing of the Republicans that's truly broken away from them (with good reason considering the past 8 years), so it's a toss-up between whether there are enough disaffected libertarians in MT that want the republicans out at any cost, vs. whether the AA's in GA can outweigh the religious right there.

Any three of Indiana, Missouri, Nevada, Colorado and North Carolina will be surprising enough as it is. Anything else turning blue that's currently light red is just gravy.

[bacatorb]

Bozo said...

Eric said...
Yeah, why can't Obama close the deal??

(Honestly, I hope I never hear that idiotic misused phrase again after this election.)


Would you prefer "Why can't Obama deliver the money-shot??"

After going back through all the landslides and the way this election looks to be the year the pendulum finally starts to swing back left, I'm anticipating Clinton-like numbers for BHO, and possibly over 400 EV.

And I don't appreciate the word verification calling me a [bothedd].

MrInsight22 said...

It is odd that Pew now has Obama's lead 2 times the Kos lead, 3 times the Rasmussen lead, 5 times the Battleground lead, and 7 times the gallup tardaitional LV lead for Obama.

The most accurate pollster in 2004 was TIPP which has Obama ahead by 4 points. Pew and Rasmussen were next most accurate in 2004 and Pew has Obama up 15 while Rasmussen has him up 5. I'd go with TIPP and Rasmussen over the bizarre Pew outlier this time (like Pew's outlier last week).

George In Florida said...

Look closely at the PEW.

39% Dems, 24% Reps

Of course, it's an Obama landslide poll!!

Makapuu said...

Obama has 286 EVs in the 24 states where his lead is 5%, or more.

Naur said...

McCain has forced an electoral landslide onto himself. The result of his campaigning in PA and lack of campaigning in real swing-states means that the real swing-states are now starting to show a lead as large as PA, while PA tightens slightly. Unless McCain is confident that he could eliminate a 10-point swing-state advantage in a week, then his strategy is a total fail.

Claus von Zastrow said...

The DC local morning news (on NBC) this morning said "the national polls have been tighter than they've been in weeks" and then cited only the Rasmussen poll. Seems a rather transparent ploy to re-enliven the horse race. Have others noticed a similar trend in national media?

dnwilner said...

Hey Nick,

YOU'VE GOT THE INSIDERADV CO and PA POLLS MIXED UP!

According to politico it is CO +8 and PA +9. You've got it the other way around. Not that it makes a huge difference but the database ought to be right, no?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/15024.html

Also, RCP has it listed the opposite of you.

InkStain said...

I'm not sure if they are closer than they've been in "weeks," but they have closed up a bit.

Not that it worries me. Obama "only" up by 4 or 5 is plenty, and his own topline isn't really moving at all, just McCain's.

jj said...

Why does the Drudge Report have the headline "TRICK OR TREAT: GALLUP SAYS OBAMA +2" when you are showing his numbers from 4 days ago for Gallup with Obama at 51 and McCain at 44? Do your numbers lag, or do you have more processing of the data to give you what you think are better numbers?

I'd like to think that Obama is ahead, but you are the only site I read that says he's really ahead.

Laurie... said...

Is John McCain a socialist for SPREADING THE WEALTH to FLDS polygamists in Colorado City, Arizona who practice tyranny over women and children and receive 25-30 million a year in taxpayer dollars?

Watch the video:

http://www.bankingonheaven.com/

BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM

XPolygamistWife

Laurie... said...

Is John McCain a socialist for SPREADING THE WEALTH to FLDS polygamists in Colorado City, Arizona who practice tyranny over women and children and receive 25-30 million a year in taxpayer dollars?

Watch the video:

http://www.bankingonheaven.com/

BANKING ON HEAVEN . COM

XPolygamistWife

Mule-Skinner said...

Hey Nate, is there any correlation between primary numbers and the final Presidental numbers (esp when broken down by age, sex, vote intention, race &etc.)?
Would it be possible to run simulations based on demographics for different candidate pairs to see "what might of happened"?
Just a thought -ms
Barak - "Eyes on the prize"

ragtimepiano said...

It's almost sad to see the Republican party self-destruct.
Here in Nevada Barack has a 7.5 composite lead, wrought by thousands of hours volunteered by thousands of people. If we can win here, in the intermountain west, we can win anywhere! YES WE CAN!

bobbruesch said...

The comment on the Pew poll contacting cell phones raises an interesting anomally in polling. Many if not most of the newly registered voters nationwide fall into the "below 30" age group. Many (if not most) of these voters rely on cells (NOT LAND LINES)and text messaging/e-mail as their only form of electronic communication. Further, most of them do NOT want their cell numbers listed anywhere. Are these voters EVER counted in other polls? Do they represent a statistacally relevant number to make many polls "off" by, say, 2-3%? Are the majority of them supporting Obama??

egapre said...

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平平 said...

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