While there are plenty of individual results for Matt Drudge to get excited about (or for that matter the Huffington Post), the fact is that the overall trend in this election is roughly flat, and has been for about a week or so. That is bad news for the candidate trailing in the race, which in this case is John McCain.
Five of the eight tracking polls moved toward Barack Obama today; the other three moved toward McCain. It's possible that there was a very slight shift in momentum toward John McCain last week, and that it's been counteracted by a similar shift toward Barack Obama after the Colin Powell endorsement. It's also possible that we've simply been reading too much into what amounts to statistical noise. Either way, our Super Tracker thinks that Obama is now no more than half a point off his peak numbers, which were realized earlier this month. John McCain needs to begin closing these numbers, and soon.
There are lots of numbers to pick through that the state level today, but few of them are wholly surprising. CNN gives Barack Obama a sizable lead in Virginia, and Mason-Dixon -- one of the few pollsters to call the state for John McCain before -- now gives Obama a smaller one. On the other hand, Mason-Dixon is the latest pollster to have Florida tightening. We suddenly have a flood of West Virginia polling, and most of it suggests that the state isn't likely to flip. For that matter, however, one of McCain's reach states -- Maine -- does not appear to be tightening.
McCain does get some decent results in the set of Zogby Interactive polling -- which, unfortunately for McCain -- you should probably take no more seriously than this one. We could stand to get some fresher numbers from Pennsylvania, but Morning Call has been running a tracking poll there for about a month now, and McCain hasn't been within single digits since roughly the 1st of the month.
10.22.2008
Today's Polls, 10/22
by Nate Silver @ 6:13 PM...see also alaska, colorado, florida, indiana, kentucky, maine, missouri, nevada, new hampshire, new mexico, north carolina, ohio, south dakota, today's polls, virginia, washington, west virginia, wisconsin
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228 comments
Not First!
First!
you've got a weird cut tag going on there, right before the 'this one' link. I'm sure you'll figure this out promptly.
nic
Zogby is just plain off the charts.
Crazy conservative blogs (TexasDarlin) are already fretting about the 44/43 poll.... why is this one so off from the others?
Ahhh Dammit!
Rasmussen mentions Nate Silver and 538.com in his tracking poll article, today.
Off subject, but hilarious:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/southern_sheriff_pulls_over_obama
@Davy
them the breaks..
Nate, you left out the WSOC-TV North Carolina poll that shoes Obama with 2 point lead or so...
"why is this one so off from the others?"
The short answer is that their likely voter screen is whacked.
The long answer has to do with sample sizes and standard deviations.
All these polls showing McCain losing are great news....FOR JOHN McCAIN!!!!
Any thoughts on Obama's internal poll projecting a tighter race?
http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2008/10/22/report-obama-internal-poll-shows-two-point-race-in-pennsylvania/
On the other hand is it a possibility they're leaking something like this to create the illusion of a tighter race to increase voter turnout? That's what I'd do.
Nate.. please, get rid of Zogby, especially the internet interactive polls.. they are just trash. Gives your rep a bad name including them.
Zogby makes Baby Jaysus cry....
-Jen
An honest-to-goodness FL PUMA.
These polls are great news!!! For Barack Obama!!!
Wow, look how BLUE that map is!
On this day, October 22nd, in 2004, George Bush led John Kerry 48.4% to 45.1%
For Final results, please see Presidential Inauguration, January 2005
John Kerry never led in a single major tracking poll between now and election day
(44) days since the Fundamental Shift towards McCain/Palin as described by PeteKent
You 'Cons should be getting pretty nervous!
President Barack HUSSEIN Obama Jr. Get used to saying it for the next eight years, rethuglicans
(Middle name emphasized to spite republiClown racemongers who tried to use it politically)
Trolltards MIA:
Oz Johnny
Midpoint Man
greg
Jack Black
DarienCrow
CTPEM
CTPTW
Eric -
Re your post on "Bradley Effect Revisted" re Secretaries of State.
fyi - Google "Secretary of State Project" and you'll find the site about the grassroots effort to turn this around.
"On the other hand is it a possibility they're leaking something like this to create the illusion of a tighter race to increase voter turnout? That's what I'd do."
Or to lure the McCain campaign into PA.
@Prometheus
That's a week old story. It's not anything new.
Any thoughts on Obama's internal poll projecting a tighter race?
Unless we see an Obama appearance scheduled in Pennsylvania, I will continue to assume the story is phony, or at least that they have the sense not to overreact to one poll number. (Note that in keeping with the "no drama" ethic, the Obama staffer in the story does not confirm the existence of the poll.)
@ Prometheus
That "leaked" Pa. poll is a week old recycled story. And bogus.... some staffer trying to motivate some volunteers.
Please god...praying daily in NC that the GOP destruction will be halted...
The idea of a Republican win...*vomit*
Palin to NBC: "You'll see" I'm healthy if records are released
I think this is just statistical noise. I think most people have made up their minds and barring some external event or a campaign implosion, I think Chuck Todd got it right when he said that by mid-October the race was run. However; I do think we might see a small bump for Obama after his Oct. 29th 'State of the Union' address. Hell with Jan 20th; this guy's taking the reins on Nov. 5.
We still might see a Colin Powell ripple once military folks get wind of the endorsement.
my $.02
Nate -- could we possibly put a different background or something on the Zogby Interactive polls in the table? It would save me from reading down the list and going "WHAT?!?! -- Oh, Zogby Interactive... WHAT?!?! -- Oh, Zogby Interactive..." ;-)
UGH every time I post it's always the end of a thread:
Wolf Blitzer, on the $700B bailout bill that contained an additional $100B of pork:
"Where would you as president draw the line between vetoing that kind of spending bill, or accepting it because of the greater good?"
John McCain:
"I would veto any bill including those that I voted on."
WHAT!
Also just in (I think): NY judge has allowed the NYC city council to vote on extending mayoral term limits.
Those Zogby numbers look very worrying... yet they still show a decent lead for Obama in NC.... huh, not to say I take the numbers seriously or anything.
Nate, you never added in yesterday's NBC/WSJ poll showing Obama +10.
I don't think it'd make a huge difference, but it is another poll.
Dear CNN polls in NC, NV, OH and VA:
You are the wind beneath my wings.
Love,
Me.
I would like to put forward the motion to give Zogby a negative weight for the remainder of the election. He sure as hell isn't going to be right on any of these state polls (unless he really is purely random, then he should be given a weight of zero), so perhaps he is a good indicator of exactly what is not happening with voter sentiment.
Sorry to just jump in, but this has me worried. Can this happen again? And if it could would it have a major effect on the election:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/22/rigging.election/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
Although I hate seeing their vile ads, it does make me happy that McCain is wasting some of his few remaining dollars advertising HERE for god's sake! (and as a side question, is it legal for them to use Obama's rising sun logo in their ad...isn't it copyrighted?)
I will be working as an obama poll worker here in FL on election day. I've got to be honest in saying that if Obama wins the election but loses Florida, I will have pretty mixed emotions. I really want to see us go blue. Anyone else have similar fears?
Real Joe
Palin's health records include an IQ test?
Nate, just dump[ Zogby Interactive. There is no point in ADDING noise to your data, and that's all it is.
The AP-GFk poll takes an original finding of 47-37 in favor of Obama to get a 44-43 finding with a LV screen that subtracts 3 from Obama and adds nearly 6 to McCain.
How in the world can that be justified?
as for the 30 minute Obama network buy i just cant see him talking- well actually any politician could talk for hours but who is going to listen for a full thirty minutes? i think 15 minutes would have been a better idea.
On the "obtained" Obama internal poll in Pennsylvania...
I reckon it's a trap for McCain to make him spend more time and money. The polls reflect the concern trolling of Ed Rendell and John Murtha.
These names are very, very relevant. They control voting in their respective battleground states. Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 were manned by Republican Secretaries of State that purged and suppressed enough to hand their states to the Republicans. Perhaps Ohio would've gone Republican anyway. The point is they likely have the elction in their hand, if their state and the election itself is close. Pay attention to this. it's important. RFK Jr. mentioned almost 20% of Colorado's voters have been purged. What a surprise. It's a Republican, so was his predecessor. Watch carefully, this is being undercovered.
REPUBLICAN
Mike Coffman Colorado
Kurt Browning Florida
Todd Rokita Indiana
Terri Lynn Land Michigan
DEMOCRATS
Elaine Marshall North Carolina
Ross Miller Nevada
Katherine Hanley Virginia
Jennifer Brunner
Pedro Cortes Pennsylvania (I think)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Ritchie
a list of all Secretaries of State can be found at the bottom of the link above
I cant see why these polls vary so much - its not like the question is a subtle one obama or mcaine but national polls ranging from 14 to 1 with everything in between wtf?
Also, where is that 14 point Pew Research poll from yesterday? I don't see that one added either
@livemild
as for the 30 minute Obama network buy i just cant see him talking- well actually any politician could talk for hours but who is going to listen for a full thirty minutes? i think 15 minutes would have been a better idea.
I could be wrong in this but I don't think he'll be talking all the way through.
I agree: keep regular Zogby, dump Zogby Interactive.
I mean, the polls DON'T reflect the concern trolling of Rendell and Murtha.
"Palin's health records include an IQ test?"
Well, she isn't a stupid woman, she is just woefully uninformed about..well, everything.
The model has a majority of the states (26) @ 100% probability for either candidate.
15 for Obama
New England [MA, CT, RI, VT], Acela [NY, NJ, MD, DC, DE]*, North Central [IL, IA], Pacific [CA, WA, OR, HI]*
11 for McCain
Gulf Coast [TX, AL], Highlands [TN, KY, OK], Prairie [KS, NE], Big Sky [UT, ID, WY, AK]
* All states in region
NATE: The supertracker is getting increasingly scrunched as time proceeds. This makes it hard for readers to see the inflection points.
I wonder whether you could provide -- in addition to the current version -- a tracker that depicts the trends on a time scale from perhaps July 1 or some later date (but to include the convention bumps in any case).
You wouldn't have to reestimate the LOESS function, just stretch out the X-axis in the chart itself so that it's easier for the reader to see what's been happening.
Without that, even though you say in this post that nothing much has changed in the last week, the tracker appears to be indicating otherwise.
Thanks for considering providing this "shortened" or "stretched" tracker.
Thanks
What EXACTLY is Obama planning on doing with these 30 minutes?
So thrilled for President Elect Obama and the many of us who feel based on tons of reputable evidence there hasn't been an honest U.S. Presidential election since 1996...
A Los Angeles Homicide Detective and Background Investigator with two convicted felons for sons is a question mark-How far did the apple fall from the tree? Has this police detective engaged in the destruction or fabrication of evidence? Thanks to his criminal son who doesn't know when to stop committing felonies the question will be put to the department's division of internal affairs:
www.myspace.com/370392338
This AP poll is crap. Over 40% of those polled would describe themselves as "Evangelical Christians". Talk about a poll that is skewed. Let's see if the Nightly News folks catch that. I am sure that Chuck T will.
So I have a question. Why doesn't someone just create a polling company with the intent of putting out biased polls? Have just enough internals to look real without giving the game away and you're set. You think NRO and Drudge wouldn't keep linking to an ad heavy site that kept polling McCain +4 or so? It would be a great market niche.
I love these "no news is good news" days.
Why poll Alaska?
I'd really like to see more MO results. Preferably not Zogby Interactive...and ideally from after 10/20.
Let me know when it'll happen.
I can't see good news for obama in these numbers: mccain is gaining ground in ohio, florida and virginia... obama can't just sit this through.
Seriously?:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/22/83752/893/194/638476
Re: fresher PA numbers, Nate doesn't seem to use the Muhlenberg poll that Pollster includes, and which provides a constant stream of tracking numbers.
Why not?
Obama's gonna hit Pennsyvania again anyway. And the Clintons will likely be there also.
My bad... I see the NBC poll now... Not sure how I missed it in yesterday's numbers.
The PEW poll is also there.
Is Obama's +19 in Washington good enough to affect Burner's downticket race and push her over the top?
Morning Call = Muhlenberg.
The internals from the AP poll are nutz. The South makes up about 35% of the poll while the Northeast and West are about 15-20% each. Yeah, McCain is only losing by one if you barely poll California and New York.
It's all about Pennsylvania.
Did anyone see the AP-Gfk poll that says the race is neck and neck? What does this mean?
cont'd
New England 26 EV
Acela 62
North Central 28
Pacific 77
193 EV @ 100% for Obama
Gulf Coast 43
Highlands 26
Prairie 11
Big Sky 15
95 EV @ 100% for McCain
@zzyzx
So I have a question. Why doesn't someone just create a polling company with the intent of putting out biased polls? Have just enough internals to look real without giving the game away and you're set. You think NRO and Drudge wouldn't keep linking to an ad heavy site that kept polling McCain +4 or so? It would be a great market niche.
Would you even need to survey real people? Or could you just claim that the info is classified?
The responses of McCain & Palin in the NBC interview remind me of reality show contestants who argue with the judge.
Auf Wiedersehen.
Wow. Some really erratic polling today.
How is Zogby so far off?
I can't believe all the hand-wringing about Pennsylvania. The only reason McCain is there is because of the number of electoral votes. He is toast in Virginia and probably in Colorado. A play for Pennsylvania, however desperate, is all he has left.
McCain says cunt in a rally today
video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX1ImnGQYcE
Would you even need to survey real people? Or could you just claim that the info is classified?
We have no way of proving that most of these polling outfits call people, so no. Just throw some numbers together, make them sound real enough, and make money for the next 2 weeks. If you get lucky with one of your calls, you could make money for years as you look like the best poller out there.
"Any thoughts on Obama's internal poll projecting a tighter race?
http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2008/10/22/report-obama-internal-poll-shows-two-point-race-in-pennsylvania/
On the other hand is it a possibility they're leaking something like this to create the illusion of a tighter race to increase voter turnout? That's what I'd do."
Do you know what I like about my composted garbage? Its impossible to recycle. Repeatedly. Day-in-and-day-out.
Concern Trolling at its finest, ladies and gentlemen, concern trolling.
Now, McCain's own advisers were quoted (yesterday, I might add) as viewing the race as "only seven or eight percentage point."
Please let this non starter compost with all the other garbage you relentless moron.
"How is Zogby so far off?"
Because it's an internet based poll and its methodology is freaking terrible.
@livemild said...
as for the 30 minute Obama network buy i just cant see him talking- well actually any politician could talk for hours but who is going to listen for a full thirty minutes? i think 15 minutes would have been a better idea.
I agree in principal but two points:
1) Depends on what he has to say
2) Who said he would talk for the entire time - could others make an appearance?
Chuck Todd and Williams with pretty devastating analysis for McCain
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/22/chuck-todd-on-mccain-pali_n_137014.html
This is BAD NEWS!!! For JOHN MCCAIN!!!!
Hey Nate:
When are you going to show the Dancing with the Stars polls?
JK...
I think there is still reason to worry the next two weeks...McCain's campaign is always thinking of something but they've been always getting it wrong. One of these days it could be like the monkeys on the typewriter. I just hope they don't type a Shakespeare play before the election.
@Eric said...
These names are very, very relevant. They control voting in their respective battleground states...
As I mentioned in last night's post, I agree and am concerned.
And, I wonder if BO will revise HAVA if (When) he gets elected.
@shadowguidex said...
"Palin's health records include an IQ test?"
Well, she isn't a stupid woman, she is just woefully uninformed about..well, everything.
Yea, not stupid just ignorant.
Zogby should seriously consider hanging his shit up, at least in terms of state polling.
BTW, where's Jack Cafferty? He hasn't been seen since he ridiculed Mooseburger for her apparent stupidity during the Katie Couric interview. Has McCNN shitcanned him?
@ that ridiculous AP/GfK poll: if your RV number has Obama +10 and your LV number has Obama +1, you are doing something wrong.
I mean, seriously, if that were to be believed, one would have to accept the premise that almost 20%, that's one out of every five, of Obama's support would stay home on election day. This from a candidate who's "excited about" numbers are frequently in the high 70s. McCain's are frequently in the low 50s.
I do love Drudge, though. It's like watching a puppy bark at a squirrel through the screen door. Only the puppy is wearing a fedora. And the squirrel is a Harvard Law grad.
McCain in NH: Obama plans election night "stadium spectacle"
12 polls in Virgnia by 9 pollsters in October. All 12 have Obama up by between 2-12 points and an average of 6.6. Virginia is in the bag.
"Blogger Kate said...
Did anyone see the AP-Gfk poll that says the race is neck and neck? What does this mean?"
No, I didn't see it because I stabbed out my eyes with a rusty knitting needle in anticipation of your question.
PorridgeGun said...
Zogby should seriously consider hanging his shit up, at least in terms of state polling.
BTW, where's Jack Cafferty? He hasn't been seen since he ridiculed Mooseburger for her apparent stupidity during the Katie Couric interview. Has McCNN shitcanned him
NO, he's been on the last two days!
RNC SPENDS $150,000 FOR PALIN'S CLOTHES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3ZJC0f7_UY
This is disgusting. You should do a post on this Nate.
Nate,
Yes, as I have been pleading for months, dump the Zogby Interactive polls.
They can't be helping the model (larger error in = > MOE out of the regressions) even with a very low weight...
I still expect some improvement in Obama's upcoming battleground numbers tomorrow, simply due to the time lag relative to the national trackers which look to have peaked with the Powell endorsement.
I'll never forget when Zogby predicted Kerry would win by a substantial number of Electoral Votes. If the guy was a goof then, he's completely off his rocker now.
Hell with Jan 20th; this guy's taking the reins on Nov. 5.
I have a sense that will be more true this year than in the past. Bush is lamer than a lame duck, and issues like the economy and the agreement with Iraq are going to be so vital to his administration that I can't see him sitting this out. Especially when it will be good for the country.
John McCain is my Love Child! said...
"Blogger Kate said...
Did anyone see the AP-Gfk poll that says the race is neck and neck? What does this mean?"
That poll has Obama up 10 points!
Their "likely voter" model pulls out 300 from their sample and somehow his lead drops to 1. It's a ridiculous poll.
The three worst polls in the elction so far:
SUSA McCain +20 in NC
CNU McCain +7 in VA
AP-Gfk Obama +10 registered, +1 likely
STUPID!
People have been noting this for some time now, but there are still inconsistencies in the Scenario Analysis, such as:
McCain loses OH, wins election: 4 of 7131
McCain loses OH & FL, wins election: 0 of 7131
Obviously those can't both be correct.
I'm sure Nate could figure this out and fix it, but I suppose he hasn't noticed the problem and is too busy to read all the comments that have pointed it out. If anybody reading this has, umm, Special Access Privileges, could you please ask Nate to look into this?
CA Hawkeye said...
@Eric said...
These names are very, very relevant. They control voting in their respective battleground states...
As I mentioned in last night's post, I agree and am concerned.
And, I wonder if BO will revise HAVA if (When) he gets elected.
He'll have the most on his plate since FDR in 1933. Maybe more!
Bush Jr. fucked everything hetouched up. He's been at it for 8 years. On top of that, Obama will actually have the power to fix everything, unlike Reagan in 1980 with a Dem Congress. There's so much that needs fixing, it's not even funny. Bush set-up voting rules to favor his party and they need to be fixed when the Dems have a chance back to being fair.
Hey all, if you are someone I've talked to before, this is one of the "Roberts" who has been on here a good bit before. I am the one that has given updates on my Baptist church friends and acquaintances and their takes on this election over the last month and a half or so, after just reading here the last 8-9 months.
There were at least a few other "Roberts" on here, one of whom is a bit of a concern troll. I don't think any were trying to sock puppet me, it is just a common name. In any case, I got sick of the confusion of there often being several of us on here at once with the same common name, so I started a new account to give that last Baptist Church update I promised.
Of course you do ALL realize that a GOP loss in November is GOOD News for John McCain ... ( and the rest of the Country for that matter ... ) ...
Well I would rather have Obama's numbers than McKKKain's.
However we still need to vote on Nov 4. :)
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Eric, don't misquote me. Remember, I can no longer read, what with gouging out my eyes with the rusty tools of a hobbyist. As such, I can no longer defend myself. Kate, however, still has functioning eyes, at least for now. She just somehow doubts the rest of you.
Of course you do ALL realize that a GOP loss in November is GOOD News for John McCain ... ( and the rest of the Country for that matter ... ) ...
This is the weakest post I've seen from Nate in the months I've been on this site. He must be tired. Why are there so muany irrelvant polls included, including some outdated ones. Then, there are some valuable recent polls left off. The blog post is poor. Come on Nate. You're the rock star here. Got to always be on. I give you and Sean props, I imagine ya'll are about as tired as the candidates. hanks for all you guys are doing. appreciated here.
Go for it robr tx, I'm reading...
@ quadrivium - MUST DEFEND NATE! AAAAH!
But seriously, he can win FL (or some other stuff, maybe one or more of those 4 was a rare PA win), lose OH and win the election. He cannot win if he loses both FL and OH. It does make sense.
I still think the Dems may well lose both OH and FL. Dirty tricks are a foot. Or maybe it's afoot. Either way, they stink.
... get it? It was a pun.
N A T E !!!
Wanted to get your attention ... I was inspired to come up with a name for The Model, and I came up with several.
(Yes, this involved drinking and laughing hysterically when coming up with funny acronyms. Hush.)
ELECTORS
Empircal
Longitudinal
Estimation of
Corrected
Turnout
Outcome by
Repeated
Simulations
VOTES
Voting
Outcome and
Turnout
Estimated by
Simulation
... and, last but not least ...
ELECTIONS
Empirical
Longitudinal
Estimation of
Corrected
Turnout
Index,
Operated by
Nate
Silver
=)
The Obama ground game will not be denied. You know there's trouble when even Joe Scarborough freaks out that, "McCain has no ground game!"
Eric
The worst poll this general election cycle was the USA Today / Gallup Poll that showed McCain up 54-44 among "likely voters" nationally a week or so after the GOP convention.
This AP poll is close, but several of the battleground and diago polls have also been off.
Cindy's not looking too hot. You reckon Maverick and her have had a few fights recently?
I think Onama needs to get James Taylor and that incredibly GORGEOUS (and sharp) Miss Virginia out on the campaign trail with him in Virginia, West Virginia and North Carolina! That should be worth about 5 points! Maybe 15 in WVA!
PorridgeGun said...
What EXACTLY is Obama planning on doing with these 30 minutes?
Here's a GUESS: Have some top notch entertainers. It should be an Obama Spectacular. There should be a nicely crafted campaign speech in the middle.
You want uncommitted voters, "soft" McCain voters, as well as Obama supporters to watch it. Maybe change a few minds in repubs/undecideds as well as remind the dems to vote.
My idea, anyway.
@Eric...
Even with everything on his plate, I think he'll tackle HAVA because there will be support for that and it will already start his plan for locking in 2010 and his reelection in 2012. Besides, he could probably get RFK to lead the legislative effort for him. Wouldn't that be cool!
As for Nate, I also think he is tired. Looked that way on TV also. But hey, give him a break. What with the election and the baseball playoffs, he has to be BUSY.
porridge,
you believe that the Obama campaign is leaking close polls and encouraging Rendell to trap McCain?
Does anybody else believe this>?
Wonder why the NBC/WSJ poll is not included here? Looks like a well executed poll.
Supertracker superserious: it looks like a fricking diplodocus.
There’s even more weirdness in that AP-GfK poll (the one where a 10-point Obama lead drops to 1 point when only likely voters are included):
http://www.ap-gfkpoll.com/pdf/AP-GfK_Poll_3_Topline_FINAL.pdf
Notice that a small percentage of respondents said they’d vote for Nader or Barr. Those people were then asked the question summarized in table A4: if your first choice was not on the ballot, who would you vote for? According to the table in the poll results, for all respondents to that question, the breakdown was 51% McCain to 25% Obama. But for likely voters, it was 46% Obama to 9% McCain.
Not only does that not make sense, it is not mathematically possible given the small numbers of voters who were actually asked that question. The table gives N = 22 for all respondents, N = 12 for likely voters. For N = 22, 51% and 25% are not possible outcomes (11 out of 22 would be 50%, and 12 out of 22 would be 55%; 5 out of 22 would be 23%, and 6 out of 22 would be 27%). Likewise, for N = 12, 46% and 9% are not possible outcomes.
Am I missing something here, or are these numbers seriously screwy?
real joe said...
"McCain says cunt in a rally today"
Well it wouldn't be the first time (last time was about his WIFE oof)
Holy polls Batman! But batshit crazy Zogby all over the place as usual. WHY are they included.
BobEL said...
PorridgeGun said...
What EXACTLY is Obama planning on doing with these 30 minutes?
Here's a GUESS: Have some top notch entertainers. It should be an Obama Spectacular. There should be a nicely crafted campaign speech in the middle.
You want uncommitted voters, "soft" McCain voters, as well as Obama supporters to watch it. Maybe change a few minds in repubs/undecideds as well as remind the dems to vote.
My idea, anyway.
I've just got this image of Obama pulling a Johnny Carson. A opening monologue, best bits from the campaign trail, an interview with Bette Midler. Maybe a juggling act.
The NBC/Mason-Dixon virgnia just released with Obama up 47-45 was 50/50 even men and women. The breakdown in 2004 was 54% women and 46% men. Bush won men by 11% and Kerry won women by 3%. This discrepancy is worth more than a point.
BobEL said...
PorridgeGun said...
What EXACTLY is Obama planning on doing with these 30 minutes?
Here's a GUESS:
- - - - - - - - - -
My guess:
Four sections. Frist is Obama talking, hitting the issues, clearing the campaign fog, and making clear his ideas. Second, a long stream of famous and/or important people telling why they are voting for Obama and why you should. Third, "the montage". Highly produced segment about America, how great it is, and how important it is to bring change. Fourth, Obama talking again. Nothing about issues, just emotion. "Give me your faith and your vote and I will lead you to a better day" kind of thing.
Longshots: a "get to know the family" segment with Michelle and the kids. One of the "talking" portions done live, or with a live audience.
$0.02
Took me a minute to type.
I didn't think that my friends at my conservative Baptist church could sway any further away from the McCain ticket. I thought their move towards tepid support with reservations about Palin was already pretty intellectually honest and a commendable level of avoidance of cognitive dissonance. I decided one more report was warranted, because I am shocked recently.
So.... last weekend (this update is late), a woman who rarely goes to lunch or events with our group came. Politics predictably came up, and she jumped out in front of the conversation to express undying support for our sister in arms, Sarah Palin. If you haven't seen earlier "reports" of this small subgroup I'm having fun telling about, it wasn't dumb of her to think she was making a statement that would show she was part of the group-think. Our church is very conservative politically. It was very involved in the last election (in legal ways) to help get out the anti-abortion vote.
Well, you wouldn't believe how the group responded. I as one of the few independents in the group was actually the only one to not jump in immediately. Everyone was talking all over eachother to say that they are sick of Palin, and think she is giving us Christians a bad name. People started doing impressions of her interviews, and mocking her total misunderstanding of basic policy issues. I'm not sure anyone is planning on voting for Obama (although several said they are considering it to make a statement about how "if you're going to pander to us, at least do it right and pick someone remotely plausible."
More in a minute...
Internet memes are GREAT NEWS... for JOHN MCCAIN!!!
Nate, you forgot the WSOC-TV poll in NC, Obama 48 McCain 46.
@RobR TX
Good stuff, keep it coming!
I wonder whether McCain regreats not picking Huckabee...smart, likeable, would have got out the base (and kept them), wouldn't have gone against McCains experience meme...
I mean ok he's got some far out views but so does Palin and he would have won on everything else except looks and breasts....
PorridgeGun said...
What EXACTLY is Obama planning on doing with these 30 minutes?
My money is on a circa 1960's style christmas special extravaganza.
It's winter at the Chateau De Obama and... what's that we hear? A knock at the door? Well, who could that be?
Former Secretary of state Powell?! What are YOU doing here?!
"Oh, I just thought I'd drop by and wish you luck next Tuesday, Barrack."
And then they sing.
Trolltards MIA:
Oz Johnny
Midpoint Man
greg
Jack Black
DarienCrow
CTPEM
CTPTW
Another indication that McCain is toast.
The ad buy... it will be, (my guess) Obama looking presidential, saying stuff like how important it is to vote, congratulating McCain on a hard fought campaign. Perhaps some stuff encouraging people to behave civilly post-election. Some inspirational stuff, perhaps some bio-graphical stuff. Light on wonky stuff. Perhaps some Biden bits.
Above all... looking presidential, reminding people 'oh yeah, I can vote for him'.
It'll give him a few points in the national polls.
Anderson said...
Re: fresher PA numbers, Nate doesn't seem to use the Muhlenberg poll that Pollster includes, and which provides a constant stream of tracking numbers.
Why not?
October 22, 2008 5:38 PM
They are the same poll. Muhlenburg College does the poll for the Allentown Morning Call. Nate Calls it Morning Call, Pollster calls it Muhlenburg.
The AP-GFKRoper poll is beyond ridiculous. 1100 total sample. Ten point Obama margin in that sample, 47-37 with a whopping 16 percent undecided. The 'Likely" subsample is what has the "one point" difference, with 800 out of those original 1100. So out of those 300 dropped about 100 are undecided and the remaining favor Obama by a three to one margin. And the "likely" subsample is 35 percent southern, even though the population of the South is less than 30 percent. The "likely" subsample quite simply disqualifies including this poll from any reputable index.
So this is beyond bad math, presented by an organization, the AP, that seems determined to shred its remaining credibility as if having McCain operative Ron Fournier run their news operation wasn't enough. No wonder newspapers all over the country are canceling their overpriced wire service. Hopefully they will just disappear.
Or maybe Roper is trying to revive its 1948 reputation for horribly inaccurate polling. Roper, of course, are the ones who stopped polling in '48 a month before the election with Dewey allegedly close to a ten point lead. At least the other pollsters in '48 were within five points.
AHH! AP HAS THEM TIED!!
So, to continue, everyone had to sort of backtrack on how hard they came down on the idea of Christians supporting Palin because they realized they might hurt the new woman's feelings. She confessed to not following things very closely, so it turned into an hour and a half or so of the group filling her in on Palin's failings. There were even a few I was unaware of as a political junkie (illegal jewelry gifts from mining lobbyists, two of her kids plus this guy her daughter is "marrying" not even finishing HS, etc. - how did I miss all that?). Again, only a few volunteer the info that they are now considering voting for Obama b/c of Palin, and I suspect most will still default R if they do bother to vote. But the enthusiasm that this group usually shows for even midterm elections is completely absent this year. Everyone thinks this whole thing must be an awful joke, and that McCain must have been pushed into this choice or was lied to by Palin about her qualifications or something.
This whole story would not be that crazy except that this group is the definition of "the base" that McCain is said to have made this pick to appeal to. I would guess our group of church friends is 90% registered Republicans. I, as an independent who have voted R and D for president in recent elections, am considered the "flaming liberal" of the group for occasionally breaking with conservative orthodoxy in our conversations over the years, although I know at least 2 others in the 30-40 person group (depends on the event) often share my views. Everyone is arriving at this conclusion without anyone trying to convince them of this position, and despite a heavy suspicion of the "liberal media." Too much evidence is stacking up for the faithful in my corner of the country to stomach any more.
"My money is on a circa 1960's style christmas special extravaganza.
It's winter at the Chateau De Obama and... what's that we hear? A knock at the door? Well, who could that be?
Former Secretary of state Powell?! What are YOU doing here?!
"Oh, I just thought I'd drop by and wish you luck next Tuesday, Barrack."
And then they sing."
My pick is it starts with a closeup of Obama saying "You know, for the last year we've been hearing about nothing but the election. Most of you are probably sick of it; heck, I'm a little sick of it too by now. So America, my new policy proposal for tonight is this: why don't we take half an hour off, turn down the lights, put on some Al Green and some Earth, Wind, and Fire and just chill."
Then he pours himself a glass of Courvoisier and lights a blunt.
has anyone seen the documentary "uncounted" on demand? Pretty scary. Is anyone else worried about them rigging elections again?
Zogby Interactive ruined this post. Please never post them again.
dawolf:
Huckabee actually comes up a lot in our group. He is who almost everyone voted for (except a few who voted McCain b/c they thought we needed to end the primaries unified and ready to fight, even though they preferred Huck personally).
McCain would have done massively better to have picked Huckabee. That pick WOULD have surprised the press. The press liked him. He is actually pretty genuine, you have to admit even if you don't like him or think his policy ideas are loony (I like him, but think this). I'm not sure if it would have "won it" for McCain by any means, but it sure would have been far better for McCain.
Heck, anyone would have been far better. We can all agree on that.
I love it Robert.
I hope the entire country sees what's happening.
Please oh please oh please.
@Robert
I can't stand Huckabee's policies, from what I know of them, and believe in secular government, but regardless the man has likeability in spades.
I believe he wasn't even on McCains shortlist.
The AP news write-up explaining the poll is, um, suspicious. The race is tightening, the race is tied, the race is fluid, McCain really gained ground from his debate performance, his base is more enthusiastic, time will tell if this solidifies. It reeks of covering their ass.
Damn you!
Drudge - excited.
Back on the celibacy wagon for me.
KO in 11 minutes, buckle up because KO usually brings his "A" game however biased and slanted it may be.
I support everyone who wants the ZI polls either dropped or set aside in a separate box. They really crud up the view and supply no information./mbw
@DaWolf
Huckabee was not on the short list.
It seems fairly clear that the two do not like each other personally.
Are all of these polls just Obama vs. McCain? How do they account for the effect on voting with the other party candidates on the ballot? On my ballot (Washington) there where something like 8 different choices for president. When presented with just two choices by the poll, you’ll pick one or the other. But the ballot presents you with multiple choices.
For example, you may have said McCain because you thought he was better than Obama but you may not really want McCain to win. So when presented with multiples, you’ll choose someone who you think is better than either. Is there a poll that tracks which candidate has more votes taken from them due to the 3rd party candidates?
McCain loses OH, wins election: 4 of 7131
McCain loses OH & FL, wins election: 0 of 7131
Obviously those can't both be correct.
Why not? The run was done 7,131 times. In those runs, he was able to lose Florida and win the election 4 times. When he lost Florida AND Ohio, however, he didn't win the election any one of those 7,131 runs.
I've seen folks claim the "this can't be true" thing before, and I really don't understand why they say that.
Here's a hint: If you think Nate made a mistake in posting the model results, he didn't. Go back and try to understand it again.
robert,
Great to have you back by whatever name you choose. I enjoy hearing about your political efforts--they definitely add a lot to this discussion.
I also agree with the general sentiment here that Huckabee's got some weird ideas but he is an incredibly likable person. He could have made a pretty great VP choice based on his personality, if he could have stuck to standard talking points. But it appears he and Mc don't get on so well which, as we all see more of Mc than probably any of us ever hae, is pretty understandable.
RobR,
Huckabee was always the VP pick I feared. The man has likability and can sound reasonable saying just about anything.
For balance and a wider net, and since people seem interested:
A Quick report on all the (various denominations) family spread around TX, VA, AZ, GA, AR, and OR.
OR 80ish year old presbyterians -the "liberal wing" of the Xians in our family, have been preaching to family about Obama since early in the primaries. As old white doctors they don't fit their demographic except for being from Portland.
GA - Grandfather-in-law with (some) race issues, in the tank for Obama on economic issues. Kind of a dixie-crat.
VA - Two families of my wife's family. All evangelical in background. One family big Obama supporters. One family that leaned McCain strongly when I last visited them in August. I don't know where they lean now.
Non-Denominational family in Austin. One couple for McCain as anti-abortion vote, one just called me to tell me about an Obama fundraiser they attended the night before last. Several siblings for each candidate.
Jewish family members in Austin: Obama volunteers since primaries.
AR - sibling changed registration to vote obama there.
AZ evangelical family - voting McCain but terribly foul on Palin.
FT Worth, TX - all McCain, all the way - sending me emails to pray for his victory. Not interested in facts. Pure cultural vote.
Dallas - mixed
tons of Christian friends around TX, mostly in 20's - 40's: lean Obama 60+ % if I had to guess.
I hope this is interesting and not just random to you guys. Basically, the many mostly conservative Christians in my family are relatively split, and many who used to go all Republican all the way are leaning Dem this year. Mostly split along education-level fault lines (except VA relaties and Austin family).
McCain loses OH, wins election: 4 of 7131
McCain loses OH & FL, wins election: 0 of 7131
Obviously those can't both be correct.
Why not? It's just saying if he loses Ohio, he can't win without Florida.
As for Cindy Mc, yes, she's looking worse and worse, lots of sunglasses when she rarely wore them before . . . I'm telling you, rehab's in her future and I really do feel bad about that but if you know anything about recovering addicts . . .
1. In defense of one aspect of the outlier AP poll which says Obama leads by only 1 point among likely voters, --the Obama 10-point lead in that poll is NOT among registered voters but rather among all adult humans reached by phone.
2. According to Michael Barone's article today, on October 25, 1948, the final Gallup poll showed Dewey beating Truman by 5 points but 8 days later Truman beat Dewey by 5 points (a 10-point swing in a week).
3. In 2000, Gallup showed Dubya up 13 points about a week and a half (not the final poll) before he lost the popular vote by 500,000 votes.
I agree with everyone that the Zogby interactive polls should somehow be visually identified or segregated. It is hard to browse through that list, and there are so many of the freaking things!
A while ago, I read from several source online that Oprah was consulting with the Obama campaign on the 1/2 spot. Hmm, could everyone be getting some of Obama's favorite things or a new car??
Seriously, she probably could help a lot in terms of breaking up the 1/2 hour with narratives, film clips, whatever . . .
oprah - he's good at consulting w/ experts - so makes sense to consult w/ an expert on the layout/content of the 1/2 hour
anyone know what time KO videos get posted to msnbc.com?
I wish there were some more (reliable) polls from New Mexico. There haven't been any for about a week. At the moment, on RCP (the worst-case scenario for Democrats) Obama is leading by 8.4%. One more decent poll from him would put him into the safe category.
RobR Tx
Wow - thanks for your detailed posts. I love this! What a great cross sectional view of ages, M/F, regions of the country with your family and church group.
My family is on both coasts and in the middle, and all are average to rabid Obama, so can't offer contrasts. Ages are 96 to brand new voters. Not a church goer so can't offer those details. In our business, 75% office staff and I'd guess 75% of field operations are for Obama. We're about 20% caucasian, 40% each African American and Hispanic. I'm in Dallas.
I pointed out:
McCain loses OH, wins election: 4 of 7131
McCain loses OH & FL, wins election: 0 of 7131
Obviously those can't both be correct.
Bill P. and draNgNon both asked:
Why not?
I stand by my statement (which others made numerous times before I did).
The model simulates the election 10,000 times.
In those 10,000 simulations, McCain loses Ohio 7131 times.
In the 10,000 simulations, McCain loses both Ohio and Florida 7131 times.
In other words, every single time he loses Ohio he loses Florida also. That seems unlikely, but so far not theoretically impossible. But it does imply that the 7131 simulations in which he loses Ohio are exactly the same simulations as the ones in which he loses both Ohio and Florida.
But of the 7131 times he loses Ohio, he wins the election 4 times; while of the 7131 times he loses both Ohio and Florida, he wins the election not at all. That's what's impossible, because they are the same simulations.
(I'm not really a poll geek, but for what it's worth I do have a PhD in mathematics, and I know a mathematical impossibility when I see one!)
I guess something related to Oprah appeared on Drudge yesterday:
"Oprah Winfrey is offering to "produce" the half-hour Barack Obama advertisement set to air on Oct. 29, a top source tells the DRUDGE REPORT. The Daytime TV dynamo has even offered up her studio space in Chicago.
"She's been begging Obama to let her help," a source explaines.
O & O
It is not clear if the Obama campaign would pay Winfrey for any production services.
Requests for comment from Oprah went un-returned.
The Obama campaign strongly denies Oprah will be involved in the ad: Bill Richardson's former senior adviser, Mark Putnam is producing. Previously, Putnam produced commercials for Democratic campaigns in 44 states.
The TV finale is seen as a high risk move, designed to remove any remaining voter doubts on the first term senator.
CBS, NBC and FOX will air the info-commercial, with the start time of a potential World Series Game 6 being pushed back by eight minutes.
Mystery surrounds the production: Will it simply be Obama sitting at a desk reading TelePrompTer? Or will it incorporate multi-media elements, on the road footage, and sweeping historic images."
I can't tell you the last time I visited Drudge and I know I read it a couple of times maybe last week . . . all for what it's worth, which could be absolutely nothing!!
But do any of us seriously thing that it will be anything short of outstanding under any circumstances???
I'm wondering about Indiana; no proper poll since 10/7. That's about 3 news cycles ago. Who knows what actually looks like on the ground. I wonder when the major pollers are gonna have a revisit.
On IN, we've been anticipating a poll forever, one was in the works but hasn't appeared . . .
you know what is so funny about this Oprah rumor? At the begining the reps were begging to have Palin go on Oprah and had a virulent campaign to have her on. Now they are pushing trying to make her role as unseemly and they call it a 'risky' move? I guess if it was McCain it would be mavericky eh?
The AP poll says:
"The AP-GfK survey included interviews with a nationally representative random sample totaling 1,101 adults, including 800 deemed likely to vote. For the entire sample, the survey showed Obama ahead 47 percent to 37 percent. He was up by five points among all registered voters, including the likely voters."
Pushing through the math, this means that a person among the 1100 adults indicating support for Obama was 2.61 times as likely to be not included as a "likely voter" in comparison to a McCain voter.
@newsfromoh
watch your antecedents.
"I can't tell you the last time I visited Drudge and I know I read it a couple of times maybe last week . . . all for what it's worth, which could be absolutely nothing!!"
"But do any of us seriously thing that it will be anything short of outstanding under any circumstances???"
I certainly can think that Drudge will be anything short of outstanding!
(I'm guessing you intend the last 'it' to refer to Obama's ad, but that's not what you wrote.)
Why is that stoopid AP Gfk poll so heavily weighted?
Why is that stoopid AP Gfk poll so heavily weighted?
decent sample size of 800 in 1 day, not split.
new thread
>>Huckabee was always the VP pick I feared. The man has likability and can sound reasonable saying just about anything.
Totally. I really just assumed Huck would be the VP pick as soon as McCain was the de facto nominee.
He has everything Palin has (except a vagina I guess) plus a brain, warmth and a sense of humor.
Ok, something's fishy with rasmussen in the last week, they've told me in their daily updates since something like last thursday that the following day would have a texas presidential poll, even today they said they'd release it at the same time as the kentucky one, i wanna know why they haven't released it
new thread
what new thread? was it 'disappeared' again?
Got my Obama Superman shirt today! In other news, Olbermann played the entire Joe The Plumber (TM) vs. Obama conversation. If possible, I now respect Obama even more. Talk about dumbing down a complicated plan so that even the lowest common denominator can understand it!
@Quadrivium
I don't think Nate's model is wrong, it's just that the presentation is confusing.
My interpretation of the those results is that there are 7,131 simulations out of 10,000 where McCain loses Ohio, which matches Nate's numbers on the sides (71% chance Obama wins OH). McCain wins 4 of those scenarios.
However, when Nate writes that McCain loses Oh & Fl he is only taking a subset of those simulations where McCain lost Ohio. And McCain wins none of those cases.
Clearly, the number of simulations where McCain loses both Ohio and Florida should be smaller than the number of cases where McCain loses Ohio.
Or I could be wrong . . .
Davey said that Obama could possibly get a bump from military types because of Powell's endorsement.
Sorry Davey,I'm a Cold War/Desert Storm vet and I subscribe to Military.com and judging by what I've seen there Obama isn't getting the military vote(although he's got mine!).The reactions on comment boards about Powell's endorsement of Obama were pretty bad.Most accused him of being for Obama soley on the basis of race and some posters still call Obama a Muslim(to them Muslim=terrorist)many called Obama a socialist(of course they don't realize the military is Soviet style state socialism,with free health care,subsidised stores etc.).I would venture to say the overwhelming majority of the veteran/military vote is going to McCain,unfortunately.
Robert, I love the continuing saga of the church group struggling with this year's political choice. It's always good to get away from stereotypes and hear stories of real people.
giantsfanxc,
But look at the lines for "Obama loses OH" and "Obama loses OH/FL". The numbers of simulations reported in those two cases are different (as they should be). So why isn't that the case for the corresponding data for McCain?
Robert, I too have been enjoying the church group stories. Any thoughts on how the revelations about Palin's wardrobe might be going down?
Quadrivium,
Point taken. It's clearly not outputting the proper scenario data.
I'm just trying to guess at what the number there actually represents.
WTF is up with Zogby? Less than +1 for Obama in New Mexico? Down by 10 in Indiana? They're smoking something.
....someone been polling the Mirror Universe I think!
@Nate ---
If as you say, we're not supposed to take Zogby Interactive seriously... then why are you still including it in your calculations?
To clarify my original post, when I mean the model isn't wrong, I mean that there are no errors that would place any of the rest of the model.
The calculations just don't match the labels that Nate has on that piece of data.
As I understand it, at least.
@Quadrivium
@giantsfanxc
McCain losing OH/FL is a subset of McCain losing OH.
In other words, he loses Ohio 7131/10000 times the simulation runs. OF those 7131 times, he WINS 4 of the runs. ALL of those 4 runs would appear require a win in Florida according to the model.
It makes sense to me -- Ohio is a stronger McCain state than Florida by a small margin. It follows that there would be very few, if any, scenarios in which he loses Ohio but DOES pick up Florida. Any McCain scenario without both of them are doomed.
There's really no conflict there if OH/FL is a subset of OH.
RObert,
I do love the stories of the wrenching choice that conservative Christians are forced to make here. I assume most will line up for McCain.
Let's face it if you are a "values" conservative Christian McCain is your man.
If you are voting only on social issues it makes sense. Of course little has been accomplished by Repubs on this front but rhetoric DOES matter.
Still the Palin pick is very difficult for intellectually honest SERIOUS minded folks.
Thanks so much for your input.
PS the NYT Magazine piece on McCain is out on the website already.
IT's ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING and will no doubt be the basis for a fantastic book for the Summer of 2009!
Buffalo Wing Conspiricist,
Love your name, I lol'd! Fivethirtyeight has officially entered the third circle of inside jokes.
To indulge in the first circle...
Zogby making headlines for its combination of (1) wacky results for McCain & (2) wild inconsistency is great news!! For Nate Silver!!
Sorry Davey,I'm a Cold War/Desert Storm vet and I subscribe to Military.com
I wouldn't guess at anything based on military.com comments. The kind of people who would pipe up there, represent a certain type of veteran. I'd guess it even contains a non-insubstantial number of the kind of idiot who washed out of basic somewhere and pretends he was special forces.
The Zogby polls are bizarre, although I actually think the Indiana poll is accurate.
I doubt Obama is running 6% worse than his national #s in VA (Kerry did 6% worse in '04 and almost all factors favor Obama getting closer.) The Nevada, CO, NH and NM numbers are bizarre (17% and three 9% worse than his national average? Srsly?) The OH poll just might be right, as are the FL and maybe national.
Baseball analogy.
Each out brings the team ahead closer to victory. The polls have basically stayed static for about two weeks, but McCain is five runs behind and running out of outs. It's now the bottom of the ninth.
Given that McCain is running out of time, shouldn't his "win percentage" be going down each day? It is a lot harder for him to catch up than a week ago. If McCain was at 5% a week ago, shouldn't he be at 2% now?
@DaveNY
Yes, losing Oh/Fl is a subset of losing OH. Therefore, the number of total simulations in which those scenarios should be different. Both are currently 7131, which doesn't add up.
The number of simulations where McCain loses OH AND FL should be less than 7131, which is the number of times McCain loses OH. McCain definitely wins Fl in at least 4 of those simulations, obviously.
In any case, if McCain loses OH and FL he has 0% chance, so the overall result doesn't change.
@daveny
@Quadrivium
@giantsfanxc
@Bill P
Listen to Quadrivium! He knows what he's talking about. Nate, please fix this!
As daveny points out, the 4 wins for McCain losing OH and 0 wins for OH&FL would be possible if McCain losing OH/FL were a (proper) subset of scenarios where McCain losing OH.
But according to the numbers posted, it's not: both scenarios are listed at 7131, which entails that there are no cases where McCain loses OH and wins FL. So he can't win 4 times while losing OH, and also win 0 times while losing OH/FL, since those describe all the same scenarios, according to the posted numbers.
Obama's listed winning % for OH is 71% in the state by state projections, so something's probably just gone wonky in counting the scenarios of McCain losing both OH and FL, which probably closer to 5000 than 7131 (assuming, contrary to fact, the independence of OH/FL results).
@John said...
Davey said that Obama could possibly get a bump from military types because of Powell's endorsement.
Sorry Davey,I'm a Cold War/Desert Storm vet and I subscribe to Military.com and judging by what I've seen there Obama isn't getting the military vote(although he's got mine!).The reactions on comment boards about Powell's endorsement of Obama were pretty bad.Most accused him of being for Obama soley on the basis of race and some posters still call Obama a Muslim(to them Muslim=terrorist)many called Obama a socialist(of course they don't realize the military is Soviet style state socialism,with free health care,subsidised stores etc.).I would venture to say the overwhelming majority of the veteran/military vote is going to McCain,unfortunately.
I live next to Camp Pendleton and many of the Marines and retired military around here are voting for Obama. JM has shown that is McCain First, not Country First. A majority, probably not. But, a significant percentage.
CA Hawkeye: I don't know how Obama will do with the Iraq Vets but I think that Powell's endorsement of Obama will sway a lot of Nam Vets. I think we are pretty much tired of the kind of bad mouthing that Viet Nam vets Kerry and Cleland recieved at the hands of the Repubs. And for the most part we are not hung up on "losing" the war like McCain is. I think his stint as a POW and that he saw himself as failure is what drives this man and makes him want to keep on fighting for no reason in Iraq.
Thanks to the weighting coefficients, any poll that correlates at least somewhat with reality can be useful to this model. ZogInt polls are worthy of inclusion by that standard, although obviously it will be difficult to peg a coefficient since they're new as of this cycle.
@giantsfanx
sorry, this is what I get for posting bleary-eyed late after a long day. I don't know how the heck Nate manages to do this stuff.
Yeah. After a 5-hour energy shot... I'm... just not... getting it to work.
@Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...
Halleluh brother. Thanks for your service.
The Repubs used Nam Vets shamelessly and I will never forgive them for it. Not surprising that it was done by a bunch of folks that dodged the draft or avoided going over.
I am not certain how many here will actually end up voting for Obama or just not vote at all.
There seems to be a lingering problem with some of the scenerios, and it would be nice to have them fixed.
When Nate lists the "X of Y" numbers, my gut tells me that the X is correct, along with the percentage, because that would be X of 10,000. But it is the Y that is the problem.
There seems to be strong trend towards McCain in Florida. Yet the "trend-adjustment" is pointed in the other way, and the state is colored pretty blue.
When I look at the SurveyUSA and Ras numbers (some of the most reliable available) it sure seems like Florida should be colored something close to white.
Two days ago Nate said McCain had to pick up half a point a day 'til the election to make it even in the electoral college. Since then McCain's lost three tenths.
For a long time I've felt like like I'm in a soccer game, ahead 1-0. I think maybe Powell's got us up 2.
"CA Hawkeye said...
...
As for Nate, I also think he is tired. Looked that way on TV also. But hey, give him a break. What with the election and the baseball playoffs, he has to be BUSY."
Reminds me of a store in my town that rents tuxes and sells bathing suits. Odd combination, made odder by the fact that the busy season for both those things is late spring (wedding/graduation season, beginning of swimming season). Nate should have picked a combination of things that didn't both reach their climax in late-Oct/early Nov.!
"bc said...
@daveny
@Quadrivium
@giantsfanxc
@Bill P
Listen to Quadrivium! He knows what he's talking about. Nate, please fix this!"
I don't think Nate is wrong (at least there isn't enough data to prove it). I think the confusion comes in with the assumption that OH/FL is a subset of OH. I think that is wrong and the correct assumption is that OH/FL (OH AND FL) is the intersection of the set OH and the set FL. In todays case the intersection of OH and FL is 7131 and OH is 7131 meaning OH is a subset of FL (since FL is somewhere around 7400 - i.e. Obama's win% is 74% for FL today). That doesn't have to be the case, but given the demographics, etc. I can see that the model has them trending very closely together (can you say r-squared of 1).
Now accepting that (not sure I convinced you), then the 4 times McCain wins the election while losing OH he does not win the election if he also loses FL.
First time poster, long-time lurker and I love this site. Nate and Sean are awesome.
Damn it, feed me fresh information.
Dance NateMonkey, Dance!
Robert in Texas -- thanks for the updates, I really appreciate them. I had a long conversation with a dyed-in-the-wool conservative and long time McCain fan this evening. (A couple circles I run in have a decidedly conservative bent, no doubt an anomalous situation given that I am an Anthropology graduate student).
Anyway, I think he's sitting this election out or casting a protest vote for Obama. He's genuinely concerned about the House-Senate-White House being in Democratic hands, especially if its above 60 in the Senate. That said, he is appalled by the Palin pick and disgusted with the tenor of the recent McCain campaign.
Its Michigan, so neither of our votes really count, but I may prevail on him just yet. He's the principled sort of Conservative -- the kind that adopts a skeptical posture towards all top-down efforts at mediating human behavior. Its a sort of conservatism in precious supply these days, but a kind I can identify with even if I draw mostly opposite political conclusions.
Once again, a disappointing result. Obama should be surging in 5 of the battlegrounds with a lead exceeding over 5 points. Obama's campaign needs a ball-stretching exercise. He is simply allowing McCain to walk all over him everyday and grab the headlines. Offense... offense... offense... Stop retreating God damnit. It's crunch time.
Checking in to clarify one thing about North Carolina. We are one of the few states, where Board of Elections is not under the Security of State. It is still a Democrat board for now...and happy it is this election. The majority of members must be from the party of the sitting Governor...but I think that we may well see a Republican from Charlotte as the new governor. The Democrat, a female, is not running a good race at all. I do not think this will impact the Obama vote much, if at all, but four years from now we could start to have "issues." I agree that AP poll missed getting good demographic mix by a long shot. As far as I can see, more GREAT NEWS FOR JOHN McCAIN!
Happy Birthday Yesterday!
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but...
@ David
"I think that is wrong and the correct assumption is that OH/FL (OH AND FL) is the intersection of the set OH and the set FL"
Yes, OH/FL is the interesection of OH and FL. But the intersection of two sets is always a subset of each of those two sets. So OH/FL is a subset of OH.
(Remember, though, a subset can also include all the members of the superset. Every set is a(n improper) subset of itself.)
So:
1. OH/FL is a subset of OH. (from logic)
2. OH/FL and OH both contain 7131 members. (from this web page)
C. OH/FL and OH are the same set (from 1,2),
Thus the impossibility of the 4 wins in OH and 0 wins in OH/FL, if they each happen 7131 times.
@David
bc's explanation is correct.
If McCain wins the election 4 times while losing Ohio, it stands to reason that in those 4 cases he wins Florida.
Therefore, the subset of McCain losing Ohio AND Florida has to be at least 4 less than 7131, for a max of 7127. Of course, the true number is less (somewhere in the 6000s, due to the correlation between demographics in Nate's yet-to-be-named model).
Hopefully, that helps explain things a bit more.
@David-- p.s.--I agree that nate and sean are awesome.
I appreciate what Zogby is trying to do with their interactive poll and maybe in 10-20 years it will mean something, but right now the polls are not worth the computer time. Until you have all generations in the electorate that are computer savvy the polls can be manipulated by a relatively small amount of voters.
Aria, I'm really not certain what it is you want...or what universe you live in where "[Obama] is allowing McCain to walk all over him"... If he were up 60-40 you'd be screaming he should be up 70-30. The spread isn't going to get much bigger. It just can't.
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