After some incremental improvements by John McCain over the course of the past week, we are now looking once again a handful of polls showing Barack Obama with a double-digit lead -- most dramatically his 14-point advantage in the latest Pew poll. Obama also gained ground in the aggregate of the national trackers, which showed four Obama gains (Zogby, Gallup, Pew, IBD/TIPP), one McCain gain (Battleground), and three pushes (Rasmussen, Research 2000, ABC/Post).
What we may have witnessed is some sort of dead cat bounce for John McCain. One possibility is that, as more voters are taking advantage of early voting windows across the country, the pollsters are finding that some voters whom they considered "unlikely" voters have in fact turned out to vote. Zogby gives Obama a 21-point lead nationwide among people who have already voted, and SurveyUSA and Civitas peg his advantage among early voters in North Carolina at around 20 and 30 points, respectively.
At the same time, between state and national polls, we are now seeing something like 30 sets of numbers released each day. Probability dictates that there are going to be a couple of outliers in each day's sample. If we're going to tout the Pew results, we probably ought to mention the latest results from GWU/Battleground, which have McCain down by just one point. Generally speaking, with this much data to look at, the rule of thumb is that when a poll looks like an outlier, it probably is one.
The state-level polls contain a mix of good and bad news for each candidate:
Here is more evidence, in this case from PPP, that Florida has tightened. The McCain campaign probably also has reason to feel a bit better about their standing in Ohio. Still -- in spite of their historical importance as swing states -- Florida and Ohio really constitute more of Obama's Plan B, with Colorado and Virginia being the top tier. And there isn't much evidence that Colorado and Virginia have tigthened (although InsiderAdvantage does have Obama's lead narrowing a bit in the former).
The most noteworthy result for Obama is in Indiana, where PPP has him two points ahead. One noteworthy feature of Indiana is that it has had rather low turnout in recent elections, perhaps because neither party has really bothered to campaign there. As such, likely voter models which are rooted in past voting history may be unreliable. And according to Tom Jensen, Obama has a 68-24 lead among voters who did not cast a ballot in 2004. These are the sorts of statistics that the Obama campaign is looking at, and they're why they remain very engaged in the Hoosier State.
10.21.2008
Today's Polls, 10/21
by Nate Silver @ 6:32 PM...see also colorado, early voting, florida, illinois, independents, kentucky, nevada, new jersey, north carolina, oklahoma, pennsylvania, south carolina, today's polls, vermont, west virginia, wyoming
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457 comments
Thank you Nate
Thank you, Nate!
We need a forum, Nate!
My posting fourth is GREAT NEWS!!!!!! For JOHN MCCAIN!!!!!!!!
The "McCain Surge" is dead, long live the "Powell Effect"
Nate: looks like left hand margin needs updating.
I'm all for McCain Dead Cat Bounces. Photo please?
Yeah, I don't have any updated numbers.
Obama now leads his Republican rival by 10 points among registered voters, 52 to 42 percent, up from 49 to 43 percent two weeks ago.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27297013/
I hope Barack's 30 minute special is all about how Republicans have been tricked into voting against their own interests. But you know, in an engaging, non-offensive way.
thanks Nate. I think we need to see where the Morning Call poll is tomorrow. My bet is Obama up again.
I'm heading up to NC in a week to volunteer for Obama. If you have nothing better to do or can take some time off, look into going to a swing state to volunteer your time.
This blog post is all about Obama's great ground game. Liberal Democrats in the UK want to learn from it. Any information/corrections/personal stories you have from volunteering for Obama, let me have them.
Some good polls. Like the Dead Cat bounce comment, Hope that's what it turns out to be!
Got to keep working. We have to run through the finish line!
This is great news for Sarah Palin - future overlord of the senate!!!!
OH YEAH, that's the stuff. /zip
I wonder if The Model gives a little digital chuckle when it simulates one of its seven McCain landslides.
Texas early voting numbers are through the roof (especially in Houston, Dallas, and Austin). More evidence that Texas is going to be closer than the polls now show
Voting started yesterday and by closing we had over 300000 people
McCain bouncing dead lolcatz. For example,
I iz in ur robocallz
Goingz PoW PoW PoW
I look forward to the the integration of the set-in-stone ballots from early voting into these statistics and probabilities.
liberal_defender_of_freedom said...
Does anyone have that NBC poll?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122462257051655701.html
Regarding Voter Turnout...
From The Bloomington Indiana Herald Times:
From the Herald-Times:
More early voting hours on evenings, weekends
By Bethany Nolan 331-4373 | bnolan@heraldt.com
October 20, 2008
County clerk Jim Fielder announced today he’s extended early voting hours.
Early voting is now open from 8:30 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday through Saturday and from 1 to 5 p.m. Sunday at the Curry Building, 238 W. Seventh St. It ends at noon Nov. 3.
“I thought, with the amount of interest we’ve had in this election, we should give people every chance they’ve got to get in and vote,” Fielder said.
He said he’s worried that heavy interest in the November presidential election, coupled with a move earlier this year that downsized the number of county precincts, might mean lines at the polls on Election Day. Extending early voting hours could help alleviate that crunch, he said.
“There’s no sense waiting until Election Day to find out if we’ve had enough hours,” Fielder said. “We don’t want to give people a reason not to vote.”
More than 11,000 people have voted early so far in the county’s Nov. 4 election, surpassing the number of absentee ballots cast locally in the 2004 presidential election and breaking the county’s early voting record set in the May primary, local election figures show. As of today, more than 700 people had voted early in person and election workers received more than 100 ballots by mail by 4 p.m., elections supervisor Jessica Sears said.
About 44 percent of registered voters voted in the May primary, and Fielder has predicted a better than 50 percent turnout for the November election. More than 88,000 people have registered to vote in Monroe County, according to election records.
AZ Obama 1% McCain 100%
Hmmmmmm.
What was Obama's win % yesterday? I know it was 92.something.
Why is SUSA surveying WY and OK?
Why are there two polls each of Wyoming, New Jersey and Oklahoma and none of Ohio or Georgia? How do these pollsters make these decisions?
sfergus483 said...
The NBC poll says Palin is McCain's worst problem, worse than Bush, worse than the economy
@tek I was one of those 300,000. Chances are the state won't turn blue, but if it's purple, I'll be pleased.
Concerns about Obama numbers on NBC are the nail in the coffin numbers for McCain.
NBC is ridiculous. The network I watched up through 2006 has gone so far to the left it is not funny. Andrea Mitchell attacks Palin for her comment about leading the candidate, but NEVER mentions Biden saying that Obama will be tested in his first 6 months in office.
That is the gaffe that people are talking about. The Obama camp is not happy about what Biden says, least that is what Rather and other liberals say, but the media is spinning it to not hurt Obama.
The media has gone lost. Most networks are far to liberal. Fox is too conservative. There is no middle ground this election.... The media is dead!
I guess the basic question is: has your model achieved (approximate) equilibrium?
malgudi said...
Why is SUSA surveying WY and OK?
to show a McCain Surge somewhere
why did ND lighten up again?
Here comes the Chuckster
I know it's hardly a "battleground" state, but I was staggered by the amount of early voting here in Texas. It started yesterday, yet when I went in to vote today, the line was out the door at 10:30 AM on a Tuesday. There were certainly way more people getting in line to vote than people entering the actual grocery store it was set up at.
By the way -- why ARE early voters disproportionately Obama people? If North Carolina is going to be at all close, we have to assume that an Obama voter is about twice as likely as a McCain voter to show up early. Is it that most McCain voters are so low-information that they don't know about early voting or what?
TYPO ". . . we are now once again a handful polls. . . ."
We now once again have? There are now once again?
What happens when Bin Laden inevitable issues a video, or worse, right before the election?
I hope that the Obama campaign has a contingency plan that can go into effect immediately--something along the lines of "The Republicans have had seven years to kill this criminal and they've done nothing. Now give us a chance to wipe him out."
The MSM, McCNN in particular, are pushing this ridiculous "Pennsylvania is in play" meme.
And what's Rendell and Murtha playing at? Are they trying to torpedo Obama, or what?
Chuck Todd: McCain's Got No Ground Game (VIDEO)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/21/chuck-todd-mccains-got-no_n_136545.html
Obama is a smart point guard and is running out the clock. He knows even if his opponent manages to make those big three pointers in Ohio and Florida, he still can't win.
"@tek I was one of those 300,000. Chances are the state won't turn blue, but if it's purple, I'll be pleased."
Even the coattails on a close race may swing a congressional district or two towards the dems that they might not have gotten otherwise.
Chuck Todd
ladies like him ??
;-)
malgudi said...
Why is SUSA surveying WY and OK?
To enable Nate's model to artificially constrain North Dakota.
Colin said:I wonder if The Model gives a little digital chuckle when it simulates one of its seven McCain landslides.
LOL. I kept telling myself I'd get some work done after the update, but of course now there's a whole bunch of new funny to read. ;)
Why are there no polls at all in AZ??? Pollsters must be thinking McSame's home state is bright red, but about 1/3 of the electorate here are INDEPENDENTS. Or are they trying to hide anything???
Updated national numbers from the last 2 days:
Pew: Obama 53, McCain 39 (+14)
CBS: Obama 54, McCain 41 (+13)
NBC: Obama +52, McCain 42 (+10)
Gallup: Obama 52, McCain 42 (+10)
ABC: Obama 53, McCain 44 (+9)
Ipsos: Obama 50, McCain 42 (+8)
Zogby: Obama 50, McCain 42 (+8)
R2000: Obama 50, McCain 42 (+8)
TIPP: Obama 47, McCain 41 (+6)
Hotline: Obama 47, McCain 41 (+6)
Democracy Corps: Obama 49, McCain 44 (+5)
ARG: Obama 49 McCain 45 (+4)
Rasmussen: Obama 50, McCain 46 (+4)
Battleground: Obama 48, McCain 47 (+1)
Mean: Obama 50.3, McCain 42.7 (Obama +7.6)
Median: Obama 50.0, McCain 42.0 (Obama +8.0)
This must be close to Obama's peak.
The Dominatrix of the Senate is EXCELLENT NEWS!!! For John McCain!!!
What Biden said, of course, despite the spin McCain, Palin and the surrogates lie about, was that Obama, like every new president, will be tested in the first six months, and when he is, our enemies will see he has a spine of steel.
That's the quote guys, not what some people are trying to make up.
To twist that into saying Biden says Obama is not ready is beyond ridiculous.
That SUSA North Carolina poll shows 10% AA for McCain. I would guess that's about 7% too high?
http://pollwatcher.forumcircle.com/index.php
^^
Virginia Conservative's 538 companion forum
Toooold ya! IN's gonna fliiiip! Obama 375!!!
How can we know the real shift in the electorate when several states haven't been polled in almost a month or longer? South Dakota, Arkansas, Louisiana, Arizona, Nebraska, Tennessee are all places I am curious to see current trends in. Indiana hadn't been polled in three weeks and look where it is at.
Dead cat bounce.
Vying for number 1 favorite phrase next to dead girl, live boy territory and worst kept secret ever.
Excellent work on all fronts, Nate.
Released today:
Obama's biggest lead ever in the Gallup likely voter poll (10 points).
Obama's biggest lead ever in the Pew Research poll (14 points).
Obama's biggest lead ever in the NBC/WSJ poll (10 points).
Obama's biggest lead ever in the CNN poll of polls (9 points).
POLLS TIGHTENING!
I am wondering, and someone can chime in, will history judge the Powell Endorsement pushing Obama over the top (with soft support and leaning McCain repub moderates) as was the case with Martin Luther King Sr. endorsing John Kennedy after Kennedy made the call to have King Jr. release from an Albany Georgia jail? You must remember African-Americans were mostly repubs at that time in 1960 and with King Sr.'s endorsement of JFK they overwhemingly voted for Kennedy.
Bry I am one of the 300K too. I know it won't turn Blue, but I would like to see it up as "too close to call" for a couple of hours on the 4th
ha ha Chuck Todd finally having to tell Gregory that this map is not firendly to McCain so funny.
McCain FailDogz!
lolCatz so 07!
Dead cat bounce?
As an amusing phrase, this one has a lot going for it. But as a phenomenon, is there any methodological reason to expect that such a phenomenon would actually happen in the electorate?
Wikipedia describes Dead Cat Bounce in economic and market terms, which are subject to speculation in their trading. But voting simply doesn't work the same way.
Sure, we could expect McCain to experience a true Dead Cat Bounce on sites like inTrade, but why would either registered or likely voters, having seen McCain's numbers plummet over the past month, respond to that by taking up his cause?
I'm not saying it's impossible, I just don't see a plausible mechanism for it
I just want to know what to do on 11/5.
I mean this blog will still be here won't it???
What am I going to do for about 10 hours a day, risking my marriage and risking the wrath of my boss?
Is there life after 538???
These numbers look great...for MCCAIN!!!
Good day at the polls, and Chuck Todd's proclamations are a near death blow for the Old White Haired Dude and Baked Alaska.
/props to the dead cat bounce reference
I missed one: Obama's biggest lead ever in the Zogby tracking poll (8 points).
What happens when Bin Laden inevitable issues a video, or worse, right before the election?
Which is one more reason why early voting is so cool. It won't matter as much.
I mentioned it in another thread, but two of al Qaeda's primary Web sites are being blocked. One of them looks like the registration expired. Now, this isn't a foolproof way to stop a video getting out, but it is interesting.
Some Republicans fear McCain taking risk in Georgia
Link
McCain can start saving campaign funds to spread the red team's wealth around to the blue team.
Entire country needs to turn blue. Lies, deceit, encouraged hate, and ignorance has to be purged from the political system.
@alvinblah:
That county clerk sounds like he's totally in the tank for Obama!
:)
"What happens when Bin Laden inevitable issues a video, or worse, right before the election?"
He can't "Hackers" have taken down his websites and they cannot disseminate any information currently.
Gee, I wonder who these mysterious hackers are. /chuckle /cackle
Where did the story on Virginia go? I was told by the campaign not to blog or talk to the media about the GOTV event I participated in a swing state this last weekend, but it sounded an awful lot like what was going on in Virginia. The Obama campaign is massive, and extremely well organized, I don't think you can overestimate the impact the ground game is going to have and the early voting numbers prove it.
When Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi and Georgia are deemed in play for Barack the polls will have caught up with perceptions that were possible sans polls. Don't get me wrong, polls are great. But there are other factors which are generally ignored but which are determinative.
Was there an "On the Road" up briefly before "Today's Polls" or am I seeing things?
Hey! MSNBC just turned ARIZONA from safe to lean McCain. ND, MT, and even SD also Lean.
This is good news...for America (sorry guys. couldn't play along).
Shadowguidex since Texas is nor a battleground I am just surprised by the participation.
Plus Dallas and Houston have huge Black populations and Austin has a high population of young liberals.
Another big thing is the state legislature. Democrats only need 5 more seats to flip the state to blue
aussie said...
I just want to know what to do on 11/5.
I mean this blog will still be here won't it???
What am I going to do for about 10 hours a day, risking my marriage and risking the wrath of my boss?
Is there life after 538???
lol
get a life
hunt some kangaroos
LOL
It's pretty funny watching Republicans talk about Biden. They were told that he'd make a lot of gaffes, but they've hardly gotten any, so they desperately try to spin any innocuous statement into one, and don't seem to realize they're only talking to each other.
They yell "listen to what Palin says it means, not what he actually said!" and the non-propaganda media give it exactly the attention it deserves -- none.
Interesting stuff. So nothing really looks fundamentally different from this time last week.
That's great news. For me.
Real Joe, I have to admit you are amusing!!! Btw, have you voted yet (if you can vote early)? If not, are you going to vote for Obama???
Sorry to see West Virginia be solidly red for McCain. I thought I read on here Obama would be up in the polls by early this week. O wait you are basing that on the radical Daily Kos poll. I understand!
It may be the Bachmann plunge rather than collapse of a dead cat bounce. The Republican Congresswoman's serious and forceful argument for investigating her fellow Representatives to see if they are "Anti-American" may have played a factor in reminding reasonable people that McCain is stoking some seriously corrosive and dangerous currents in our society.
I bet history books will talk about this corrosive effect.
So if I analyze this correctly and we throw out Battleground and Pew as outliers (or keep them and let them cancel each other out) what we end up with is an end to the McCain mini surge. Considering this probably begins to reflect the weekend's events might we see a continued upward tick for Obama for a couple of days? At any rate it seems whatever small momentum that McCains's numbers showed has stalled.
From Mark Ambinder this afternoon:
Question About White Men
If white men are moving significantly to Sen. McCain, as seen in a lot of the IVR polls and a few phone polls (PPP in FL, Rasmussen Nat'l Tracking, Morning Call Tracking in PA, FoxNews/Rasmussen Tracking in FL), why have most of the national tracking polls failed to pick up the movement?
This true?
It's looking very bad for McCain...even more Republican politicians have come out in support of Obama. Can't say that I blame them, that's why we jumped ship as well...it's a scary thought having McCain and especially Palin in charge, yikes!
It's funny, I don't really recall Bush ever getting above 50% in RCP or other averages, Obama is basically there now 2 weeks out with an increasing financial advantage.
The McCain "tightening" began last Tuesday and appears to have reversed. Florida and Ohio are tightening because McCain really began his counter offensive last week.
With 2 weeks to go, it appears 527s will not have a role, and there don't look to be any major domestic "October Surprise" issues out there.
The only thing that can hurt Obama now is complacency among his own voters and supporters.
I will volunteer again this weekend.
Don't think this went through the first time:
Nirad points out that there are two polls of Oklahoma. It does seem like there has been a lot of polling there lately. What is that about?
peter said...
From Mark Ambinder this afternoon:
Question About White Men
If white men are moving significantly to Sen. McCain, as seen in a lot of the IVR polls and a few phone polls (PPP in FL, Rasmussen Nat'l Tracking, Morning Call Tracking in PA, FoxNews/Rasmussen Tracking in FL), why have most of the national tracking polls failed to pick up the movement?
This true?
yes
McCain Surge !!
HAHAHAHAHAH
@fergus:
I disagree - I don't think Biden meant "all presidents are tested early on", I think he very specifically meant "As a new face on the scene, foreign powers are going to try to test Obama very early to see if he can be pushed around."
It's pretty clear from the text - Biden was not speaking generally about any new administration, he was talking about how the world would react to Obama specifically. It's stupid politically to say at this point, but it's absolutely correct (which sums up a lot of Biden gaffes). Other nations will try to test Obama early, whereas with McCain's well-known hawkish nature and tendency to make rash decisions they would probably be more reluctant. Doesn't change my vote, but I agree completely with Biden - they did the same thing to JFK.
Holy crap at the Jersey numbers! (I mean, I knew we were going blue, but damn at Gannett and Quinnipiac!)
It's interesting, because I've actually seen more McCain signs than Obama signs around where I live, and I've always thought of it as light-moderate blue. On the other hand, both signs are way outnumbered by the Lautenberg/Pascrell signs (8th CD - Nutley and Belleville), so.
In more interesting news: I still kind of can't believe the IN poll, even if it's backing up the Selzer thing from a while back. (Did we ever get the followup to that, by the way?) But if it's for real, then I'm a happy man.
On the other hand, I'm a bit wary. It's still Indiana, and right now I'm looking at PPP's NC poll that's about 4 points ahead of anything else.
I question the validity of the "dead cat bounce" analogy, even though they have a similar apparent effect.
In the market, the dead cat bounce comes from optimistic traders expecting that the drop was just an ordinary fluctuation (i.e. they expected it to turn around and provide a tidy profit). Once it becomes clear this isn't the case, the panicked rout continues.
There's no real analogy to that in political polls. Instead, I suspect, you get a similar effect because of a strategic change in the trailing party. They cross some threshold that tells them that they must make huge and immediate gains or it's all over, so they go with a "kitchen sink" (or, sometimes, "scorched earth" or "nuclear") strategy.
They start throwing out the most inflammatory stuff they can find to try to get some traction. And, in fact, they are rewarded because the inflammatory rhetoric -- predictably -- riles up the base and gives a momentary boost.
However, the strategy ultimately backfires because it's so over-the-top that it alienates persuadables and undecideds. Furthermore, many will (rightly) perceive it as a strategy of desperation, triggering some of the landslide bandwagon effects (supporters less likely to care enough to vote, persuadables more likely to join winning side to be with the "in" crowd).
In the end, it looks like a market dead cat bounce, but it works through a completely different mechanism. At least in my opinion. =)
"Another big thing is the state legislature. Democrats only need 5 more seats to flip the state to blue"
Very important to get those dems in control of the state legislature. Redistricting will happen to Texas in 2010 and they need to map those districts correctly to avoid giving away free districts to the reps.
Not all surges are created equal.
Man, I hate when I have to retype a whole post that disappears into the ether. =P
women like chuck todd??
anyway 13 days to go and it is killing me. Why is mccain in PA?
does he think there is a Bradley effect?
does he think murtha is right and they are closet racists?
does he hope to spread enough street money to get Philly?
are murtha and rendell secretly in league with mccain?
does the mccain camp have secret polling?
is PA a great conspiracy and part of the NEW REAL, PRO AMERICA and are the rest of us left out of that bright and shining United States of McPalin?
i think we need an expose from the media now on all anti americans
Posted here yet? First-time votes favor Obama 73% to 26% for McCain. http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Politics/story?id=6079714
marco said...
Real Joe, I have to admit you are amusing!!! Btw, have you voted yet (if you can vote early)? If not, are you going to vote for Obama???
not yet voted
i'm still undecided
Only because it's a new thread and I'd hate for late posters to miss it, here's a bit of the Palin CNN interview. It's, well, it's Palin (with my favorite comment concerning her scars from ruffling feathers. We all know how lethal feathers are . . .)
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/10/21/sot.palin.role.as.vp.cnn?iref=mpvideosview
@Mark
they tested Bush 43 (9/11).
I'm guessing an enemy would try to get McCain to overreact, and make a bad situation even worse.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27310999/
Oops! The other shoe drops. So much for being a reformer, Sarah?
The number I like to see is 90%+ for Obama taking all Kerry states (why no similar figure for Gore states?). Almost reached 90% and now it's moving up. McCain is stalling out. Short of him flying Sarah Palin to the Afghan/Pakistani border, and her shooting Osama Bin Laden and cutting off his hand, it seems to be over.
Marc Ambinder is what the brits call a wanker. Sorry but he is, he is always publishing these little nuggest based on absolutely nothing. See how he cherry picks the polls? Maybe if he had asked the question last week but after all the polling today. Nope sorry.
Getting too late for an "October Surprise", isn't it?
Gallup has two brand new polls.
First among Likely Voters who are "real" Americans:
McCain 89%
Obama 6%
Undec. 4%
Among Likely Americans who harbor the following feelings and traits.
Racialists, who seek at every opportunity to point out race and try to divide people about it. They are actually guilty about being white and somehow feel that by electing Barack (a man who has no tie to historical American slavery (like Gen. Powell)), they will feel better about the history of our country regarding slavery. These are people that hate any religion, because practice of which by other people makes them uncomfortable. If there is a measuring stick on morals they don't want to be accountable to it. Further they believe in federal government involvement deeply into the lives to set limits on individual behavior, and wealth creation.
The tally here is:
Obama 92%
McCain 1%
Uncec. 7%
Can we have these totals included the model?
@GaMeS:
That's a reasonable theory. Better than anything I'd thought of, anyway.
Aussie...I understand...MSNBC at 6a EST each day, CNN..(ok, no Fox)...NY Times and Washington Post editorials, fivethirtyeight, pollster..and the list goes on...what will I do on 11/5?
Folks, please remember: slow and steady wins the race and gloating is unbecoming...let us not count our chickens before they hatch.
Ambinder is looking for a needle in a haystack. The numbers on white men moving to McCain are simply inconsistent. Rasmussen's national numbers haven't moved, and his state polling shows movement to Obama among white voters in MO and NC but movement towards McCain in FL and OH. Of course, "white men" is much too big of a category to be discussing anyway.
The Inaccuracy of Political Polling in 2008
The only reason people believe PA is in play....
I don't see those state polls as a "mixed bag." The only good news for McCain is that he's still holding onto West Virginia--and that's electorally meaningless.
Yet the same time, it looks like Obama is establishing a slight lead in North Carolina. Now those NC polls are still all within margin-of-error, but McCain should be 5-10 points ahead; as we all know, if he loses NC's 15 electoral votes, he has no realistic path to victory.
Likewise, FL and IN. ESPECIALLY Florida. McCain should be comfortably ahead and those are 27 electoral votes that he absolutely cannot afford to lose. It's astounding that FL is in play, not to mention Indiana. Even if it's a dead heat in those two states, that's terrible news for John McCain. Those need to be safe Red States for McCain to pull out a win if he can't win MI or PA.
So basically from that set McCain has locked up KY, OK, SC, and WY. None of those states matter electorally. At best, he is tied in IN, FL, NC, and continues to poll above the MOE in CO and PA.
So again, I don't see how you can call these a "mixed bag." Two weeks from election day, McCain has failed to re-establish himself in key states that possibly wouldn't even be up for grabs if the GOP was running a more competent campaign (and candidates).
Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled that the Democrats are looking at a 350+ electoral vote count. But McCain has run the most inept campaign run in quite some time... worse than Dole '96, Bush '92. You probably have to go back to Goldwater in 1964 to find a candidate so tone-deaf to the needs of a sizable portion of his base, as well as most moderates. In almost every way imaginable, McCain has been a total failure of historic proportions.
Others have pointed this out before, but some of the "Scenario Analysis" numbers are inconsistent--the ones involving losing Ohio.
Several lines say Obama loses Ohio in 2914 of the 10,000 simulations, but one line says 2913.
Meanwhile, McCain is said to be losing Ohio in 7086 simulations (consistent with Obama losing Ohio in 2914), but McCain also loses Ohio and Florida in 7086 simulations; supposedly he wins the election in three of the former cases, but none of the latter, which is clearly impossible.
Can someone prod Nate to figure this out and fix it? Unfortunately it does shake our confidence in the numbers his model is giving us.
I've noticed that that Daily Tracking polls are a small but significant McCain lean on average compared to the other national polls:
Non-Tracking National Polls:
Pew: Obama 53, McCain 39 (+14)
CBS: Obama 54, McCain 41 (+13)
NBC: Obama 52, McCain 42 (+10)
Ipsos: Obama 50, McCain 42 (+8)
Democracy Corps: Obama 49, McCain 44 (+5)
ARG: Obama 49 McCain 45 (+4)
Mean: Obama 51.2, McCain 42.3 (Obama +8.9)
Median: Obama 51, McCain 42.0 (Obama +9.0)
Daily Tracking Polls:
Gallup: Obama 52, McCain 42 (+10)
ABC: Obama 53, McCain 44 (+9)
R2000: Obama 50, McCain 42 (+8)
Zogby: Obama 50, McCain 42 (+8)
TIPP: Obama 47, McCain 41 (+6)
Hotline: Obama 47, McCain 41 (+6)
Rasmussen: Obama 50, McCain 46 (+4)
Battleground: Obama 48, McCain 47 (+1)
Mean: Obama 49.6, McCain 43.1 (Obama +6.5)
Median: Obama 50.0, McCain 42.0 (Obama +8.0)
The non-tracking polls are more favorable by Obama by +3.4 on average. Is this because the tracking polls have longer samples (especially Battleground and TIPP) and are slower to pick up movement?
Redistricting is done in 2011, not 2010, after the next cycle of elections, when nearly all State Reps, many State Sens, most governors will be elected, not this year.
Real Joe: I am very confident you will end up riding the Obama wave come November 4! In the mean time, keep up the amusing blogs!
By the way -- why ARE early voters disproportionately Obama people?
Enthusiasm. I think Nate's observation of campaign offices has suggested that the enthusiasm gap is larger than polls about it indicate. It's easy to say on the telephone that you're excited about a candidate. It's not true unless you act on it. Volunteering for the campaign is one way to act on it. Donating is another and Obama's now over 3.1 million individual donors. Yet another way is to get to the polls early and vote.
Jack-Be-Nimble-
You're a fucking tool.
Shadowguidex I think if everyone who voted in the democratic primaries in Texas simply show up for Obama, then the state will be close. We got more voters in the dem primary this year than Kerry got in the General election in 04
"What happens when Bin Laden inevitable issues a video, or worse, right before the election?"
Well the tricky part about making videos is that you apparently have to be alive to make them. I was skeptical for a long time, but I got to say I've come to believe that he is dead. It has been a long time since he's released anything and the last couple were very clearly faked. The one where they just filmed Bin Laden's picture with someone else giving a voiceover was particularly amusing. I don't think it alleviates Bush's guilt for not pursuing him or the others who were actually responsible for 9/11 or Al Qaeda in general. But, I firmly believe, that Osama has passed on.
Newbies:
you need to hit "Post a Comment" to see posts beyond 200
How exactly are early voting numbers figured into the polls? I'm assuming that pollsters ask people if they've voted early, and if so who for, yes? Are those responses weighted differently from the responses of people who have not yet voted and are just stating a preference or intention?
Yeah, there was an "On the Road." It even had 2 comments appended to it when it flitted across my screen. I think it was West Virginia, and it disappeared before I could read it.
Brings it back, I tell ya.
I'd forgotten the dead cat bounce phrase from futures .... lol
(CNN)—With less than two weeks to go before voters cast their ballots, the AFL-CIO launched a massive Get Out The Vote campaign Tuesday, targeting over 13 million union voters across the country in presidential, congressional and gubernatorial battleground states.
250,000 volunteers will disperse across the country in 20 presidential battleground states, including some “non-traditional’ key states like North Carolina and Indiana.
The efforts will also target 12 Senate races and 60 House races in an effort to secure a filibuster-proof majority in the U.S. Senate.
The group, which has been targeting union voters throughout the campaign season, says it also plans to increase the volume of phone calls and door to door knocking in the key states, with an emphasis on veterans, elderly voters and gun owners, who are typically harder to contact.
According to AFL-CIO Spokesman Steve Smith, in 2004 and 2006 the grassroots organization had about 200,000 volunteers working in only 13 states. Compared to the efforts in 2008, Smith says they are targeting “more states and more House and Senate races than ever.”
These final efforts wrap up a $250 million grassroots mobilization which began in late June after the organization threw its support behind Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama.
Dead Cats are great news...for John McCain!!!
@ jack-be-nimble
interesting. I would imagine the poll was taken from one area code and one town in some state that has the initials OK, SD, SC, AK, KS, NE.
Thanks.
So, how long before Drudge picks up the Battleground poll and runs a googol-point headline about THE MCCAIN COMEBACK?
g-man said...
Dead Cats are great news...for John McCain!!!
ROFL
The real math: Obama 98%, McCain 2%. That's Nate's call for Pennsylvania, and that's where McKlan is putting all of his eggs. Colorado is dead to him, like Fredo.
1 in 50 for McKlan at this point. Better hope the Alabama part of Pennsylvania lets varmints vote, and vote twice.
newsfromOH said...
Only because it's a new thread and I'd hate for late posters to miss it, here's a bit of the Palin CNN interview. It's, well, it's Palin (with my favorite comment concerning her scars from ruffling feathers. We all know how lethal feathers are . . .)
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/10/21/sot.palin.role.as.vp.cnn?iref=mpvideosview
October 21, 2008 5:58 PM
********************
newsfromOH
LOL! I read in the paper the other day police reported a person hospitalized from stab wounds caused by ruffled feathers.
I don't think there's an actual "dead cat bounce", but I think one shows up in the polls. You have to care at least a little about the election (or be very, very lonely) to answer a pollster's questions. Once Obama looks like he has it in the bag, I suspect some Obama supporters stop answering the stupid polls.
I think that's what happens in cases like Obama's trip to Europe and the Conventions as well. If you read the numbers on them, to name one example, you'd see that after the Republican convention the percentage of polled people who were Republicans skyrocketed. What some people will tell you is that a bunch of people switched to being Republican. Nah. It's just that a lot of Republicans who previously couldn't be bothered to stand around for five minutes answering questions were now excited enough about the election to do so.
In short, the more boring the election is, the more noise in the results, and noise favors the guy that's behind. Between the last debate and Powell's endorsement, there was enough noise to throw the smaller tracking polls off a little.
As for why Rasmussen's off by three points, we all know that. Not to fear, he'll suddenly jump up three points the day before the election and then claim to be super-accurate. Again.
I really want Nate to look at a snapshot of the tracking polls 3 days after the final debate, and see what they looked like then compared to the final results. Who cares what they said on November 3rd?
hahaha...Chuck Todd:
"You have to work really hard to become a bigger drag on the ticket than George Bush"
I get the feeling South Carolina is being 'lowballed'.
shadowguidex said...
hahaha...Chuck Todd:
"You have to work really hard to become a bigger drag on the ticket than George Bush"
OMG
* Campaign Balls Explodes *
Since when did Yahoo get overrun by wingnuts?
http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/et-tu-yahoo-yahoos-false-balance-mini
why on earth is obama going into WV with all the polls keeping him down 6-9 points?
Real Joe said...
lol
get a life
hunt some kangaroos
LOL
I'll miss you mate!
Jason Black
The Dead Cat Bounce as it relates to polling is a reverse band wagon effect, what I call the hipster paradox named after young folks you might see in New York or San Francisco who define what is "cool" as being whatever it is that isn't popular. Same thing in polling, people decide to not support the popular candidate after he gets a wave of support just because they don't want to be thought of as going along with the crowd.
Joe Biden is self absorbing who gets caught up with wanting to be "That One", "The One", "One"...
Obama will have to deal with that throughout his administration if he is elected president.
The fleeting "On the road" was about Virginia; had a great bit of satire about N. Virginia ( btw, Lee commanded the Army of Northern Virginia ) being communist country.
"why on earth is obama going into WV with all the polls keeping him down 6-9 points?"
He's got a 93.4% chance of winning this election. Why not visit some new states? Besides, it's pretty close to Ohio.
And Obama's got better odds in WV than McCain has in Pennsylvania (which both campaigns seem to be giving an inordinate amount of attention).
aussie said...
I'll miss you mate!
same here :-)
Nate can keep this going
with what ??
i don't know
Speaking for cats everywhere. Dead cats don't bounce. They splat.
But I'm loving what HAL 10000 (the model) is projecting. Thanks for the breakdown on the pollsters. I can integrate my own suspicions about them with authority now.
Long time reader, first time poster here. I really love this site, Nate. THANKS for everything you've done and continue to do- I think I echo many sentiments that have already been made and the thoughts of lurkers like me who haven't posted.
I love these 10/21 numbers... I am fairly confident about the election and at this point, my only real fear comes from the possibility of disenfranchisement/fraud/faulty machines on election day.
One more thing- can people PLEASE stop responding to the trolls on this site? These comment threads are incredibly informative and fun to read, but once the right wing trolls come out and people begin dialogue with them, it just goes right down the shitter. These people CANNOT handle reality- they thrive on receiving attention and the 'debate' that they have with people who respond to them. If you pay attention to them, they win. All trolls are the same. Just ignore them. When you browse the comments, check the name of the poster and if it's one of the "regulars".... skip it. They'll go away and our threads will be educated discussions about the polls and election instead of smearing each other and continual, repeated debunking of delusional right wing talking points.
Thanks everyone! Cheers to fellow donors/volunteers- WE own this election. Cons can complain that "Obama bought the election" all they want, but his money is our money- and this victory is ours as well.
"why on earth is obama going into WV with all the polls keeping him down 6-9 points?"
Daring McCain to ignore WV.
The argument for the experience is now hollow for McCain. His greatest strength.
What a chilling statement for McCain and his supporters.
Wow, this site is getting popular and cluttered. Might we have to purge 'Real Joe' someday?
Wonderful poll in Indiana from PPP! Even if it is a bit of a lefty survey, it's still better the Seltzer Water or whatever that other poll was called. I still doubt that the state will go blue. Funny mention of the Tom Jensen number, as I fit perfectly into that Obama-voter profile!
FL, NC, & NV all show tightening, interesting results. They will be fun to keep track of leading up to & on election night! CO looks to have found a comfy spot in Obama's column.
Also agree with earlier comment(s), e.g. by Jason Black, about use of "dead cat bounce". Graphically it is identical, but practically it seems off the mark. Perhaps in the context of a "dead cat push" it works, that is winning over some voters in a days-long window, but otherwise voting does not follow the rules of market behavior.
Love the post Nate, thanks for your sharp (& addictive) work!
Has anyone attempted to project how reports of early voting results might influence election day turnout? By either energizing or tamping down the turnout for either the early voting leader or the early voting underdog?
Also, I presume all early voting results are based on polls, not on actual counting, which doesn't happen until election day--correct?
I'm going to make a small prognosis: the Ohio and Florida tightening numbers are going to loosen again and stay loose in Obama's favor. Florida is a hella-expensive media market, and McCain is broke. Obama can probably spend the ast 10 days to a week outspending him 10-1 in Ohio and Florida. Add this to the legendary Obama ground game, and both states are in th bag.
@joshua
why on earth is obama going into WV with all the polls keeping him down 6-9 points?
To encourage McCain to spend more of his dwindling funds there?
To help a down-ticket race?
Or: I keep thinking that $150,000,000 could buy you a whole hell of a lot of private polling. I wonder if Obama's campaign may be sitting on some of the most detailed and statistically significant polling data of any campaign, ever.
na elections going to be close stupid of obama to go to wv wont even be close. pa will be way closer.
Please volunteer for Obama during one of the last 4 days. You can sign up on his website.
NATE: MCAIN OH & OH&FL BREAKDOWN NOT POSSIBLE. PLEASE FIX AND EXPLAIN.
MCCAIN LOSES OH, WINS: 3 of 7068
MCCAIN LOSES OH/FL, WINS: 0 of 7068
SORRY FOR SHOUTING.
joshua: I agree with you in part, but I think the Obama campaign should still spend some of their money in WV (just to give it a shot) while also bumping up the neighboring "Pennsyltucky". While we all know PA is favoring Obama by a comfortable margin, I also think we shouldn't take it for granted since PA is a must-win state for both candidates. Election night will be a lot easier if Obama bags all of the Eastern Time states he's favored to win (including PA and VA).
Nate - there's a problem in your simulation scenarios. Again. :-(
I'm a devoted 538er, but I'm starting to worry. Look at "McCain loses OH, wins" at 3 of 7086 vs "McCain loses OH/FL, wins" at 0 of 7086. Those numbers simply don't make sense, and it's been like this for the last week or so at least (since people started noticing). What's wrong with the simulations? At first I thought "maybe OH/FL" means OH *or* FL... but that doesn't jive, either. What gives?
I think the dead cat bounce came from the third debate. After the first two debates, world events and the campaign, it appeared that the cat was dead. The debate, for partisan purists who weren't concerned by the faces and anger offered them orgasmic nuggets of "I'm not Bush" and Ayers. A flicker of hope that their party's dreams might not be undeniably and reliably dead (Oz ref for those who care) . . . and then the sun came up and they saw they were sitting around a dead cat . . .
Really, I'd like to hear what people think re:
How can we know the real shift in the electorate when several states haven't been polled in almost a month or longer?
South Dakota, Arkansas, Louisiana, Arizona, Nebraska, Tennessee are all places I am curious to see current trends in. Indiana hadn't been polled in three weeks. Look where it is!
I don't get why Oklahoma is always polled. Who's biting their nails waiting for the Oklahoma results?
Does OH/FL = OH + FL?
That would explain it.
yitz, Oh/Fl clearly means 'both Ohio and Florida'.
Woohoo! Mail carrier just dropped off my ballot (Oregon mail -in ballots). I just marked my Obama vote. Hell yeah!
Hi all,
Briefly as it's half past midnight here. Obama's days off to visit his grandma's sickbed are getting a LOT of press here (UK). Surprised to see nothing about it on 538.
What do you guys think? Will it hurt his chances?
For those lamenting what to do after 11/4......we can analyze how Nate's model performed and make suggestions for improvements. We can see how accurate the various pollsters were. Who missed by the most and why. Look at what data needs to be modified in the future.
By the way,Chloe, my cat is highly offended by some of the language used here.
Stuart said ...
NATE: MCAIN OH & OH&FL BREAKDOWN NOT POSSIBLE. PLEASE FIX AND EXPLAIN.
MCCAIN LOSES OH, WINS: 3 of 7068
MCCAIN LOSES OH/FL, WINS: 0 of 7068
===============
That's not impossible. Someone check my logic, but I believe it means McCain loses Ohio 7068 times, and of those, he wins the election three times. Of the same subset, there are no instances where he wins the election while also losing Florida.
People get ready, there's a change a' comin'.
OBAMA up by 10 in latest NBC/WSJ poll. Mooseburger is now biggest concern voters have about McCrypt Keeper
http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/obama-up-by-10-in-latest-nbcwsj-poll.html
"Briefly as it's half past midnight here. Obama's days off to visit his grandma's sickbed are getting a LOT of press here (UK). Surprised to see nothing about it on 538.
What do you guys think? Will it hurt his chances?"
Won't hurt him whatsoever. He is only cancelling campaign stops in Iowa (which he is winning handily), and my state, Wisconsin which he is also winning handily.
Don't sweat it, in fact, I think it plays really well with women that he will take two days off this late to visit gramma. That says a LOT about his character.
lexigeek said...
That's not impossible. Someone check my logic, but I believe it means McCain loses Ohio 7068 times, and of those, he wins the election three times. Of the same subset, there are no instances where he wins the election while also losing Florida.
But there have to be fewer simulations where he loses FLA and OH than where he simply loses OH. So it should be 0 out of number <7086.
No concern trolls today...
Bex--I don't think it will hurt Obama. The campaign will keep going, lots of surrogates on the trial, ads up and lots of images of Pbama with his white family on every tv station. Not that this is about politics but it will play very well with older voters.
yes this is all great news FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!
The man deserves to retire. don't you think?
yes this is all great news FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!
The man deserves to retire. don't you think?
'says a lot about his character' - lol.
Obama suspending campaign to visit his gramma >> McCain suspending his campaign to grandstand during the bailout vote.
newsfromOH said...
"Dead cat bounce.
Vying for number 1 favorite phrase next to dead girl, live boy territory and worst kept secret ever.
Excellent work on all fronts, Nate"
I second that! I'm pissed I didn't discover this site until a couple of weeks ago...though it's cut severely into my work time, so maybe just as well.
NPR was interviewing some guy from Pollsters on the radio today. He said that the most recent poll SNAFU was during the primaries in New Hampshire. Was 538 up and running then? If so, what was the 538 prediction for NH?
dead cat bounce said...
No concern trolls today...
good polls = fewer concern trolls
1. Colorado and Virginia are the key states to watch as the loss of either dooms McCain (though Colorado could be sufficiently offset with McCain pickups of NH and Maine's moose-filled northern CD).
2. Larry Johnson's blog No Quarter and HillaryClintonForum.net are reporting that the health of his grandmother (who the hospital has released) is a pretext for Obama's sudden trip to Hawaii.
They claim the real reason is that Barack's archenemy Andy Martin is in Honolulu digging up dirt and has petitioned the Hawaii Supreme Court for access to Barack's birth records.
Note: Barack has also apparently defaulted on responding to requests for admissions in the Berg lawsuit about his citizenship pending in Philly. Barack's forces have been seeking to delay that case if it is not dismissed.
despite the enormous sample size, watch the pew poll drop off RCP by tomorrow.
Personally, I think the photos of Obama hugging his white grandmother will cause some wingnut brains to short-circuit.
I'm wondering what effect all of the early voting will have on exit polling.
It seems that a disproportionate amount of voters are doing the early voting for Obama. This might leave the possibility that on Nov 4th, it will be mostly the McCain supporters who will actually be there. I'm wondering if this will be reflected in the exit polling and we might have a false call of the elction.
apropos of the great pie debate from yesterday, Ben Smith at Politico reports
"The crowd chants, "We want pie" as Obama -- again -- tells his story about eating pie in Ohio."
When the O camp wins Ga and/or IN people will realize exactly why this is the greatest run campaign ever.
Real Joe said ...
"not yet voted
i'm still undecided"
Here's a quote from David Sedaris from New Yorker
'I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. “Can I interest you in the chicken?” she asks. “Or would you prefer the platter of shit with bits of broken glass in it?”
To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked.'
Thanks lat/shadowguidex.
I was NOT trying to concern troll I promise! The BBC must have got their knickers in a twist over nothing.
I must say, since my 538 addiction I genuinely feel I have a better grasp of this election than most BBC journalists. This is a VERY weird feeling.
Anyway, thank goodness! (Ok there was a bit of concern I'll admit ;-) )
Off to sleep, much reassured.
Night all xxx
The biggest news from Indiana is the GOP challenging early voting and spreading the rumor that if they win the challenge, early votes won't count.
http://www.post-trib.com/news/lake/1232720,gelection.article
I'm from Gary. People believe this in Northwest Indiana. Disenfranchisement is systemic there.
@lat:
LOL re: pie!!!
If Obama has any sense (and he does) he will spend a fair bit of those two days sleaping.
oh brother.....dont even talk about obama having character, and mccain not having any when he went to washington to try to atleast help wether he did anything to help or not atleast he showed he cared.........obama in FL call me if you need me...
we dont need him no even biden said we will be tested with obama.....we dont need that now if you call obama having character now.....and mccain not having it then then idk what to think................
When's Mel Martinez' seat up? 2010 or 2012? He sucks!! Wasserman Schultz can replace him.
bex: zzzzzzzzz
McCain: I'd let Osama bin Laden go free
http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/mccain-id-let-osama-bin-laden-go-free.html
McCain campaign disrespects American flag, drags it on the ground
http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/huge-american-flag-dumped-on-ground.html
Andy Martin? You're kidding, right? I'm sure Obama's attorneys can handle him (does he have standing even?) without his presence, thanks very much.
thelma lou, I'm sure the obama campaign knows that and will make sure that does not happen.
Sleep well, Bex, everything is ok.
bex--no worries Rachel Maddow was totally worrying about this yesterday on her lvie show. I think these analysts don't know who to read Obama and don't get that the campaign has all these things sort of calculated, even the unpredictable life stuff.
And yes I often feel the same way you do. I was listening to Public Radio this mornng and their analys is of Colorado was Mccain is still the favorite here because he is a republican. Just so clueless.
For the poster above who mentioned South Carolina being lowballed, that might be true to some extent, but I don't think by that much, given my (limited, since I only moved down here 4 months ago) take here. One of Obama's big advantages elsewhere, cities, is largely negated here. There are only two really decent size cities here, Charleston and Columbia, and neither are very large. In addition, Charleston's advantage is probably completely overwhelmed by the large military presence in the area, both in the city and in the surrounds. In my opinion, the absolute ceiling here for Obama is probably O+5, barring a complete and total landslide.
That does not, however, mean I won't be casting my first ever presidential vote for him in 2 weeks anyway.
When's Mel Martinez' seat up? 2010 or 2012? He sucks!! Wasserman Schultz can replace him.
I'd much prefer Wexler, but she'd be alright too.
First time poster...love this site.
As far as visiting his grandma every woman i talk to about this grins and then tears well up..they totally get it. Real life getting in the way and it's something everyone can relate to.
Aussie said...
"I just want to know what to do on 11/5.
I mean this blog will still be here won't it???
What am I going to do for about 10 hours a day, risking my marriage and risking the wrath of my boss?
Is there life after 538???"
Aussie, I too am risking my marriage and job, so maybe we will both be single and unemployed and can meet somewhere between AZ and Australia on the 5th!
LOL.
We should all plan on having a toast together or something on Tuesday night/Weds am/Weds pm, etc.
someperson.
how will they be called the greated champain ever if clinton already won GA back in 92? was he not great to you guy's over on the dems side? he also won KY,WV,MO,AR,LA,CO......and TN. which obama would be lucky to win half of thoses......so i would call clinton great before i'd call obama great.
"oh brother.....dont even talk about obama having character, and mccain not having any when he went to washington to try to atleast help wether he did anything to help or not atleast he showed he cared.........obama in FL call me if you need me...we dont need him no even biden said we will be tested with obama.....we dont need that now if you call obama having character now.....and mccain not having it then then idk what to think................"
Please learn to spell and how to use proper grammar. Your statements make me want to yank my eyeballs out, and use them to stab kittens in the flanks and hindquarters.
I knew what the role of the vice-President was when I was in elementary school Sarah Palin does not and she was elected Governor of a state. That says bad things about our country or at least Alaska and the GOP. The separation of powers is vitally important to our Democracy in the US. Cheney garnered power because he knew 1000X more about the way Washington worked than Bush Jr. Palin would be chewed upand spit out if she attempted to do anything at all in the Senate. They would make sure to never have a tie vote to ensure her sterility as a spayed VP or "prez of the Senate". Is she fucking kidding?!?! There are 100 Senators more qualified than she is and they all know it.
One possible explanation of the FL and OH numbers --- the 10,000 monte carlo simulations are separate independent runs of the model, each using a different random number seed. Since the occurrence of 3 out of 10,000 is a rare event...it really isn't different from 0 out of 10,000--- at least statistically...the difference is from the fact the scenarios are run separately....
Dems are voting early in greater numbers because we don't completely trust the process:
If the FL police set up election-day roadblocks near polling places in black districts again, those votes are in the bag.
If machines mysteriously "break down" in certain OH precincts and produce seven-hour delays and long lines, these ballots are already cast.
If there are efforts to challenge and remove voters' names in MI, there will be time to fix it and get those votes counted.
The comment about the HillaryClinton.org (i.e. wingnuts-r-us) sit got me to thinking of how much I want to see a candidate just once in a debate throw his hands up and say "now you're just making sh*t up!"
The Ohio/FL thing is easy.
In the instances in which Mccain loses Ohio, he wins the election 3 of them.
In the instances in which Mccain loses Ohio, but also loses Florida, he doesn't win in any of them.
Basically he can't win without Florida.
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