Over at the Campaign Spot, Jim Geraghty wonders how the new ABC/Washington Post poll could have the temerity to suggest that Barack Obama is winning more support among Democrats than John McCain is among Republicans:
The ABC/WashPost poll in late September found 86 percent of Republicans for McCain, 88 percent of Democrats for Obama. PUMAs don't exist anymore? Colin Powell and Christopher Buckley are leading the exodus of Republicans for Obama? I suppose it's possible, but I have my doubts.I suppose I have my doubts too, except that this finding is now reflected in any number of polls. In fact, six of the eight trackers that published today included the support that each candidate is winning within his respective party. Let's take a quick look at those figures:
Support within own party:
Pollster DEMS GOP
Rasmussen 86 87
IBD-TIPP 88 83
Research 2000 87 89
ABC/Post 91 84
Zogby 87 84
Battleground 89 85
AVERAGE 88.0 85.3
2004 Exit Poll 89 93
2000 Exit Poll 86 91Among Democrats, Barack Obama is now winning 88 percent support, comparable to John Kerry in 2004 or Al Gore in 2000. And there are a couple of points' worth of undecideds left in there, so it's possible that Obama could scrape up against the 90 percent number on election day.By contrast, John McCain is winning the support of just 85.3 percent of Republicans, well down from Bush's 93 percent in 2004 and 91 percent in 2000. There are some undecideds in there as well, so his numbers should improve some, but McCain is likely to underperform Bush by several points.
This is really the key theme of the whole post-Lehman Obama surge. Between his more populist talking points on the economy, the backlash to McCain's attacks, and -- I'm guessing here -- a deep level of antipathy among Democrats toward Sarah Palin (Battleground has her favorability ratings at 12/78 among Dems), Obama has really brought the Democratic base home. By contrast, Obama's support among independents varies quite significantly from poll to poll, ranging from essentially even in the Rasmussen tracker to a +15 in Zogby.
Perhaps the more important question is whether, all else being equal, you would rather have a lead built upon support within your own party or built upon independent support. My guess is that the former is a bit more solid: Partisans turn out more reliably than independents, and change their minds less often.
And here's a really scary stat for McCain. If Obama wins by the same margin among Democrats that McCain does among Republicans (and to reiterate, right now Obama is doing a bit better within his own party), and Rasmussen's most recent party ID breakdown is correct (D 39.7, R 33.0, I 27.3), then McCain will need to win independents by about 20 points to earn a draw in the popular vote.

239 comments
thanks for the late night snack, Nate
I was so glad to hear a reasoned, rational argument from the remaining conservatives (who are not blinded by the know-nothing branch of the GOP) yesterday when Colin Powell endorsed Obama. Yay for reason, yay for rationality!
NATE
I sent you an email requesting that you psot on instructions to your viewers on how to utilize the site better
along with the 'don't be an a-hole'
please provide a FAQ & instructions on how to access the comments after 200
plus how to view the comments in a full screen mode
plus maybe more monitoring to cleanse the threads of infestations
sock puppetry has been rampant recently...
thanks for all you do !
WOW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=243gXtXtEwc
Great, now I'll be here. Another half hour forever gone.
Who will be first? Will it be "if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed?"
Or will it be RWC, the inano-bot cast off from FreeRCP idiotdom?
The anticipation is killing me.
Actually, this is a pretty cool post. I'm glad I got to enjoy it before it got all muddied...
Night all. Half hour you will not have Mr. Silver, I deny you!
Thanks Nate,
It would be interesting to see some numbers on where the nonsupporters within each party are going. To the other side? Not voting?
GOBAMA!!!
JOHN, go to bed NOW !!!
Mac is ready for his nappy time
Interesting how it looks like more dems tend to cross party lines than republicans, at least historically.
FreeRepublic can be kind of fun. I have a login over there, sometimes when I'm really bored I head over the wonderland that is that godforsaken place, and stir the pot.
The fun is the challenge, because you have to be subtle. You have to just toe that line, or they'll toss you out on your ass. They don't take too kindly to a dissenting opinion, no matter how polite or well reasoned it may be. I've only stuck to commenting so far, but I may start posting new topics to see what I can get away with.
If Obama wins around 85% of the Democratic vote, McCain is toast.
BTW...Zogby tracking is showing Obama +8. I really think there is a small bounce from Powell and don't trust Ras.
I know Ras is good, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't spend a day or two trying to create an alternate narrative.
/tinfoil tomfoolery
NATE
who do you predict will win the series ?
correct answer is the amazing TB [devil] Rays !!!
BTW - some of those Rays made an appearance with Obama in Tampa on Monday so they definitely deserve to go - all - the - way !!!
How to see comments after #200
When there are more than 200 comments, click on the Post a Comment link even if you don't want to post a comment to see all the comments, 200 on a page.
Well, Nate, you can have your "facts" and your "figures" but there are lots of other people out there that JUST KNOW that the blue collar democrats of Pennsylvania and Michigan are going to vote with a massive Bradley effect come election day.
Thanks Nate! Another shattered myth (just like the Bradley effect)
I used to be a registered Independent before the primary season because I was too embarrassed by the loser-y ways of the Democratic Party to fully claim them, though my voting record and sensibilities were clearly those of a Democrat.
Barack Obama makes me proud to call myself a Democrat.
It's such a relief to have a candidate/party leader who is running such an outstanding campaign on every level that my normal cynicism is being eroded by the undeniable reality of all the numbers pointing to a clear sweeping victory in November.
Thank you Barack Obama for making me believe again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
This guy argues that the biggest youth turnout in the primaries was just 16 percent, it was in Utah, and it was for Romney. This scares me.
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/10/hbc-90003728
There never really was such a thing as PUMAs, save for a couple of people who would get on the teevee and claim to be a PUMA.
If the McCain campaign's picking of Palin really was designed to garner the PUMA vote, then that decision goes down in history as one of the most damaging instances of believing one's own propaganda.
Nate,
You pointed out that partisans turn out more reliably than independents, but I'm sure we can agree that the candidate with an edge on independents will win. It's almost impossible for a candidate to rely solely on his or her base for victory in this day and age. So I say, independent turnout is probably more important than partisan turnout. However, I stand corrected if I'm wrong.
SNIP
in many southern states [including FL, GA, NC, VA] people are registered as DEMs but that was based on family history
[kinda like if you were born to a catholic you were a baptized catholic all your life by default]
many are conservative dixie small democrats & they often vote for the GOP for national offices, especially POTUS
In FL there are more DEMS registered than REPs, and even more of a spread in states like NC
this year, more of the dixie small democrats may come home & vote for their own candidate for a change
but those voter registration patterns tend to throw a wrench in the national analysis when they get lumped in with the MN DFLers & the NE DEMs & west coast DEMs
too much emphasis put on the party registration as it does not necessarily corelate with their definition of partisan id by 'con', 'mod', 'lib/progressive' self-description
DCM, my friend...this doesn't answer all your questions, but a couple.
> please provide a FAQ &
> instructions on how to access
> the comments after 200
>
> plus how to view the comments in
> a full screen mode
On the threads initial page, right-click on "Post a Comment" and then left-click "Open In a New Window"
You can scroll up and down one page at a time with the space bar (down) and Shift-space (up).
To refresh for the latest comments, press the F5 key.
Works great - like having a nearly infinite bag of fresh, new potato chips to scarf from forever. Or at least until Nov 4.
I always suspected that PUMA's were a Republican charade.
BUG
How to see comments after #200
==============================
better way IF using a PC with IE:
LEFT click on the red 'post a comment' link
then choose 'open a new tab' & RIGHT click
that creates a new BLOGGER tab where you can view all the comments in a full screen & post as well whether 200 or more [or less]
then jump ahead in 200 comment increments using the blue 'newer/newest' links as the thread grows...
plus it allow one to use the original tab for refreshing or researching data on the 538 site separately without closing the comment thread...
FWIW
> There never really was such a
> thing as PUMAs...
Oh, there seem to be plenty of them. Unfortunately for McCain, they're all ex-Republicans on their way out the door.
Nate's analysis shows that PUMA Democrats are headed for extinction and John McCain better get the few remaining ones protected under the Endangered Species Act before it's too late. Perhaps he can put Lynn Forester de Rothschild in a captive breeding program with Joe Lieberman.
HANK
I know how to utilize the site
I was asking Nate to create a FAQ for the newbies that are lost trying to stumle around unsuccessfully
I end up trying to provide a tutorialmyself every day...
Old Droopy Dog Lieberman. I didn't hear anyone calling him a racist for switching from the Dems to Napoleon McSame.
The McCain camp believes Colorado is all but gone now. This makes McCain's path to victory very small indeed. McCain's strategists seem to think they need to win a large blue state (PA) to win this election -- I think they are right. However, I see no way for them to win that state.
Right now, from every indication we have, Obama is up 10-12 points in PA. Thats a huge amount. For this reason (And Rick Davis' comments today) that Mr. Jeramiah Wright will be brought back into play. I think this will fail myserably and tarnish McCain's name further, but that hasn't stopped them so far.
This election is over.
DCM - no problem. Rock on.
having higher tax rates for those who make more money IS socialism.
honestly, everyone should pay the SAME percentage, if we were to be truly democratic.
nate said:
"...then McCain will need to win independents by about 20 points to earn a draw in the popular vote."
Quite the mountain and only logical. Dems won't be moving across in any great numbers. The fundamental differences are too stark.
yeah...the democrats are all retarded assholes.
What's Geraghty smoking? He says in the Campaign Spot article "But with the turnout at Palin events (and for McCain alone in Virginia this weekend, actually), donations, debate ratings, etc., I don't see the GOP base as being depressed and staying home this year."
That's in the context of him saying that it does not make sense that there are that many more Democrats than Republicans. But the big turnout in Virginia, according to my Googling for news reports on them, is "several thousand" for each of the two rallies, while Obama just had 100,000 and 75,000 in MO.
If there ever were any PUMAs, the Palin pick chased them back to Obama. Palin is the anti-Hillary, and no one knows it better than the PUMAs.
> honestly, everyone should pay
> the SAME percentage, if we were
> to be truly democratic.
I believe it was Ambrose Bierce who said, "The law in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets, and stealing bread."
Are there no workhouses? Who knew that Scrooge was the first troll?
This is just amazing to me! The McCain campaign is now quietly giving up in Colorado and New Mexico!
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/20/mccain_giving_up_on_colorado.html
"McCain Giving Up on Colorado
CNN reports that top officials of Sen. John McCain's campaign are "making tough decisions" as they now see Colorado, New Mexico and Iowa no longer winnable.
Instead, the campaign's "risky strategy" is counting on Florida, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Virginia, and a comeback in Pennsylvania.
The McCain campaign responds: "We see the race tightening both internally and in public polling. We are within striking distance in the key battleground states we need to win."
That's just so hopelessly desperate to give up on 3 states George Bush carried in 2004, with 2 weeks to go in the election.
It is just barely possible for McCain to eke out an electoral college win, if he holds North Carolina, Florida, Virginia, Ohio and Nevada, and flips Pennsylvania. That concedes Colorado, New Mexico and Iowa to Obama with 34 EV. 252 EV (Kerry) - 21 (Pennsylvania) = 231 + 34 = 265 EV. So McCain would barely win by 273 EV - 264 EV.
But, what about Virginia where Obama is up by at least 4.5% and Missouri where the polling is moving away from him too. Obama is leading Pennsylvania by double 8+ points in the last 5 polls there:
Morning Call +13.1
Strategic Vision 10/6 +14
Susquehanna 10/18 +8
Rasmussen 10/6 +13
SurveyUSA 10/12 +15
Even if Obama's lead is only 1/2 this much, it's still bigger than in Colorado. There's just no way in hell McCain is going to win Pennsylvania. To admit that all his chances depend on that is simply to give up!
He is counting on Appalachian rednecks coming through for him in the end. But, he has to hold Ohio, and Florida and North Carolina, and now Georgia (if the latest Poll with McCain +2 is to be believed), and Indiana, and Nevada. Flip any one of those states and he loses.
So Obama is sitting in the position of being able to wait until the last 3 or 4 days and decide which states are closest to flipping and concentrate there.
McCain won't know which way to divert resources until it's too late. He has to hope his firewall holds in North Carolina and Georgia and Indiana without his spending resources there.
The whole thing just sounds hopeless to me. No way is Pennsylvania better for McCain than Colorado unless he just thinks the western rednecks won't vote for Obama and he can somehow suppress enough votes in eastern Pennsylvania to pull it out, and what about Missouri where Obama is also leading? Is he going to say "the hell with it! If we lose Missouri it's all over anyway?"
But, it smacks of John Kerry's 2004 Florida and Ohio strategy. Same desperation, same hopeless sense of tilting at windmills.
Scalez-
"That guy" is quoting a GOP strategist. His argument is silly:
College students have to reregister or go home to vote?
Not if they voted at school, which, considering the primary schedule, most of them probably did.
He claims that 35% GOP in a sample is unrealistic because "a reluctant vote for McCain counts the same as an enthusiastic vote for Obama". Talk about missing the point.
"if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed, said...
having higher tax rates for those who make more money IS socialism."
Excused me ...
I know socialism.
Socialism is (not) a "friend" of mine ...
and this, sir, is no socialism!
Sheesh!
having higher tax rates for those who make more money IS socialism.
honestly, everyone should pay the SAME percentage, if we were to be truly democratic.
Someone doesn't own a dictionary.
So, is Barack's absense on Thursday and Friday going to work against him by providing an opportunity to McFailin to dominate the news cycle, even though JM has shown a sad knack fro turning an advantage into defeat (e.g., showing a nasty side during BO's personal trajedy. Or will it show BO to be the true person he is, humanizing him, and remind those that need it that he comes from a mixed race family? I vote for the latter.
GOBAMA!!!
I don't get how you cannot see that it is UNdemocratic to make people pay higher taxes than others and still have the same vote as them.
If they are going to pay 3X as large a % as other people, then their vote should count as 3X greater.
"if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
having higher tax rates for those who make more money IS socialism.
honestly, everyone should pay the SAME percentage, if we were to be truly democratic."
The income tax system is regressive. Even though the wealthy may pay a higher percentage of their income, people who are not wealthy still pay more. A person who makes a million dollars a year may pay say, 38% ($380,000). That leaves $620,000. A person who makes $50,000 may pay 20% ($10,000). That leaves $40,000.
You can say that the person who makes a million dollars works harder than the one who makes $50,000. That doesn't make it true.
"Spreading the wealth around" is something that we have been doing for 75 years or longer. Believe it or not, it made us a world power.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that this post shows why there is a clear advantage to being a nightowl on the West coast.
Nate, do you ever sleep?
I just need to know...
WHAT HAPPENS AFTER 11/4???
What will I do for hours on end?
How will I risk divorse?
Will this site still be up with new threads posted?
It's OK for you Americans... you can go about rebuilding your International Reputation, your world class economy and a health care system for all.
But what am I to do here in Australia?
I need to know, is there life after 11/4?
Tell me - or I'll become an evangelical!
Sorry for being OT
I don't get how you cannot see that it is UNdemocratic to make people pay higher taxes than others and still have the same vote as them.
Well... To begin with, democratic vis-a-vis undemocratic has nothing to do with economic policy. Democracy stands in opposition to authoritarianism.
if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
are you kidding me? there was really nothing wrong with bush and obama's a socialist!
**********
this kills me.
Bush is nationalizing banks...and the socialist is Obama.
What are you smoking, dried Horseshit ???
to: If McCain doesn't win, america is screwed
If your definition of socialism is "having higher tax rates for those who make more money " then a) you've been living in a socialist country all your life because we've always had a progressive tax rate and b) you would be wrong. btw, it's America, not america.
"Among Democrats, Barack Obama is now winning 88 percent support, comparable to John Kerry in 2004 or Al Gore in 2000. And there are a couple of points' worth of undecideds left in there, so it's possible that Obama could scrape up against the 90 percent number on election day.
By contrast, John McCain is winning the support of just 85.3 percent of Republicans, well down from Bush's 93 percent in 2004 and 91 percent in 2000. There are some undecideds in there as well, so his numbers should improve some, but McCain is likely to underperform Bush by several points."
I've been saying this the entire campaign! The result from 2000 & 2004 from Bush's attack ad campaign was to polarize the electorate. He riled up the base and got over 90% support from Republicans, but he also antagonized Democrats and got THEM to support Gore & Kerry in great numbers.
There were simply more Republicans to turn out, so Bush won in 2004.
But, it's suicidal for McCain to try the same strategy in 2008 with Democrats holding a 6% to 9% edge in Party ID!
McCain seemed to think that he could use the same Karl Rove tactics without achieving the same result as 2004: that he would antagonize Democrats and Democratic-leaning Independents to vote for Obama!
Steve Schmidt and McCain seem to be acting as though the electorate hasn't changed at all since 2004 and yet we know HUGE changes have occurred.
They can't rally their base with red meat attacks on Obama's character without driving up their negatives among Independents and bringing former PUMA Hillary supporters back to Obama!
They began in June trying to win Hillary supporters over, and wound up running a pure base Red-state campaign.
It just is a totally screwed up campaign strategy. I don't think this is going to be close on election day at all. Obama was prepared to win it all on election day with his GOTV efforts, but he's not going to need to.
All he needs to do now that McCain has conceded Colorado is to pour overwhelming resources into Virginia and Pennsylvania and McCain is finished. His last defense gone.
"if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
I don't get how you cannot see that it is UNdemocratic to make people pay higher taxes than others and still have the same vote as them."
Yeah - we get that you don't get it - that just makes you 18th century in your thinking.
Of course landowners should have a bigger vote - they have more "at stake".
jb56, the person making $1 million is stil paying a larger % of their income.
that means they are contributing a larger slice to society, which means their decision or vote should be worth more than someone who is throwing a few crumbs into the pie.
Matthew Frederick said...
There never really was such a thing as PUMAs, save for a couple of people who would get on the teevee and claim to be a PUMA.
If the McCain campaign's picking of Palin really was designed to garner the PUMA vote, then that decision goes down in history as one of the most damaging instances of believing one's own propaganda.
Well said -- I've been making that argument for months, and I can't believe how long people have clung to that particular myth.
The overwhelming majority of so-called PUMAs were Republicans and their online sock puppets, and it was pretty amazing to see how many people couldn't recognize what was going on. (I saw journalists -- not just uninformed pundits spewing talking points -- refer to comments on blogs that were completely overrun by trolls and sockpuppets, and they seemed blissfully unaware of the mendacity involved.)
I even pointed this out when McCain first selected Palin, that he was apparently aiming at a demographic that didn't exist and willing to pick a woefully unqualified candidate to try to hit it. Sure, a gun-toting pro-life creationist tax-cutter has a lot of appeal to the base, but the "she's gonna break through that glass ceiling!" angle was abandoned within about two days. (Remember her getting booed when she mentioned Hillary at her second or third appearance?)
If anything, her appeal seems to be the opposite of what they'd planned on, given their quickly abandoned glass ceiling talking point: She soon started repulsing women but attracting repressed guys with MILF-librarian-dominatrix fantasies. (Srsly.)
Anyway, well said ... they really did buy their own spin, and that more than anything else is what ultimately sank the McCain campaign. They'll try to revise history and say it was just the economic crisis, but she was taking a nosedive in the days leading up to Lehman -- the crisis just sped up the process.
I really, truly would not be surprised if these mental defectives really do nominate her for president in 2012, totally convinced that she would win if it weren't for that cranky old man dragging down the ticket. =)
if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
I don't get how you cannot see that it is UNdemocratic to make people pay higher taxes than others and still have the same vote as them.
If they are going to pay 3X as large a % as other people, then their vote should count as 3X greater
-----------------------------------
And because my penis is CLEARLY THREE TIMES BIGGER THAN YOURS (9 inches) - your vote should be 1/3
Tosser
The only PUMAs left are the hard-core nutjobs and racists. Everyone else has gotten on board, whether it's because of Hillary, Obama, or some other factor. And that doesn't leave very many out there.
that means they are contributing a larger slice to society, which means their decision or vote should be worth more than someone who is throwing a few crumbs into the pie.
How quaint. He doesn't believe in "one man, one vote".
bullshit most wealthy people make money from investments and pay a meager gains tax. If you want to distribute votes by taxes the single low to mid income male would get three times as much voting power as hedgefund manager or the person that put the minimum 2 million to get into the fund.
"if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
having higher tax rates for those who make more money IS socialism.
*************
No.
It is a cristian behavour.
Plus:
McCain is going to lose in a landslide, and no amount of praying/wishing/crying/smearing/cheating will change that.
Better to save your time an energy for another time –have a feedback, reinvent your brand, become more libertarian.
But this election, well, this election is ovaahh.
Now clear this site and take your time to read more Bible..if you ever read it...you can start whit this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Good_Samaritan
P L E A S E
Don't feed the trolls!
(HINT: That means you should absolutely, totally ignore everything they post.)
Now, if someone starts a substantive argument about this socialism idiocy, feel free to engage -- but talking to an obvious sock puppet is just a total waste of effort.
Sorry, you're right.
DNFFT
DNFFT
DNFFT
Even though it's so much fun.
Although it is fun to ask them if they are better off than they were eight years ago...
HA HA HA
DNFFT
hopefully someone will come and blow up america if obama wins...cause he deserves to have the worst presidency ever!
oh guys btw,
I loved that american Pie's story from two post belove.
I also noticed it worked in order to get rid from trolls...why don't you start whit a "nouvelle cousine" narrative...is there anybody from France ????
:P
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but the electoral college projections on the pie chart and the map at the top of the website show Obama winning by a projected margin of 344 - 194. When I add up the individual states I get a margin of 364 -174. Where is my disconnect? Thanks.
GaMeS said...
P L E A S E
Don't feed the trolls!
*********
ok,Games...lets talk about american Pies.
:P
If you people aren't interested in talking about polling, then what the hell are you doing here?
Is nobody even going to bother to discuss the overwhelming fact that McCain has CONCEDED the entire race unless he can flip Pennsylvania?
That's the most desperate of all the Hail-Mary's he's thrown in the race!
But, if he gives up on Colorado, New Mexico, and Iowa, (Obama: 273 EV) then he has to try and flip a Kerry state.
Logic would dictate trying to hold Virginia, Florida and Ohio and then flip New Hampshire (that gets him back to 269 and a tie, which might be close enough for some vote suppression somewhere and a recount to get him over the top), but his internals must be horrible there -- we don't even see it mentioned.
They are really sputtering on fumes right now over in McCain-land. I wonder if the media is going to pick up how completely desperate this new McCain "strategery" really is!
matador said...
SORRY DUDE - YOU LOST ME...?
:: in hushed tones ::
And now we see the common forum troll -- Repugnicus trolli -- as its tiny cluster of neurons realizes that its only source of food has become much more scarce.
Observe as it engages in a behavior common to rats in mazes and pigeons in Skinner boxes in labs throughout the world: the famed extinction burst.
As the behavior ceases to be rewarded, it will escalate over and over again to try to prompt a response -- any response -- as its fragile, childlike psyche collapses and it is forced to deal with its own loneliness.
The crushing, silent, freezing, pervasive, existential loneliness.
Tragic.
:: cue sound track: The circle of liiiiiiiiife ... ::
I could imagine a flat tax being quite fair...
if it was a flat wealth tax instead of a flat income tax.
Somehow I don't think that would have quite the same pull in the GOP though. :)
The PUMAs were always a vastly overblown phenomenon to begin with. At its core were just a couple thousand diehard extremists -- remember when someone did a study of one of the key PUMA websites and found than just 310 unique users contributed 100,000 posts?
The PUMAs only *seemed* much larger for two reasons: 1) They were very, very, VERY vocal. and 2) The media loves a horserace, and played up the Clinton vs. Obama divisions for all its worth to make for entertaining television.
Now they're just a footnote in history. Never really a true force in politics, more of a phantom force - a giant balloon puffed up with air. Once the balloon is popped, we have learned there was nothing really there to begin with.
@if McCain doesn't win....
So, how much should the vote of one of these "people who don't contribute as much" be worth??? 3/5ths of a person of means, perhaps?
We already had this discussion as a nation. Go read a history book.
One person, one vote.
Aussie said...
matador said...
SORRY DUDE - YOU LOST ME...?
**********
are you suggesting you are in France at the moment ???
If yes,why didn't you take issue versus that whisky/bourbon debate ???
Don't you know that cognac is three league above???
Damn.You should have said that...
:)
Shoot, Games, sorry. Didn't see the trolls reminder until after I posted :)
The lack of PUMAs is due in part to Palin being too far right for the annoyed Democrats to consider voting for and the "coming home" that happens naturally as the emotions from the primaries wear off.
On the other hand, the discord in the Republican party makes me wonder how long the blending of Joe Six Pack and those who followed William F. Buckley can last ... they are far from a match made in heaven.
Concerning PUMAs and what someone said earlier about how some of the Cable News talking heads were convinced they were a real group because of all the "blog commenting" they did in the comments section...here's a funny anecdote...
I had a friend interning at CNN this Summer and part of his internship duty was to proofread stories on the "Political Ticker" and sort through the comments to eliminate any with profanity etc....He said everyone in his office always had a laugh whenever they would check the IP addresses of the so called "PUMAs"...It was always the same one or two IP addresses posting under hundreds of different names (HillaryDemInPA, Hill4McCain, PUMANOBAMA, etc etc etc). When he told me this story, I couldn't help but chuckle thinking that it was Will Bower (the pathetic leader of this non-existent pack) frantically posting from his Mom's basement...
So yes, PUMA was always blown out of proportion because it was really around a dozen nutjobs who had assigned blog/article beats to comment on every day....What nerds...
Also, doesn't anyone remember the PUMA conference in Washington where "thousands were expected in attendance" and they ended up having 15 people show...They stayed at the Comfort Inn by the airport, as well...
Okay - back on topic
I never met a Clinton supporter who was a PUMA - a few were slower to come around but Palin galvanized most of them! (They were really insulted by her nomination.)
I was a delegate at the Alaska state democratic convention (75% Obama, 25% Clinton based on the caucuses) and it wasn't entirely without tension (the caucuses were Feb 5 but the convention was in July). In the Ladies room at the Alaska State Fairgrounds in Palmer I overheard a couple of Clinton delegates in frustration saying "They're just dreaming".
Yep - we were dreaming. The division wasn't on issues but on "electability" and I think we've proven that issue now!
(But go out and canvass and GOTV - here in Alaska we are now mostly canvassing for our Senate/Congressional candidate, we had a postcard campaign to other states too. ASSUME NOTHING - Get Out The VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Oh - and if you want good return on your investment contribute to Begich for Senate - media is cheap here in Alaska! He is 4 pts or so ahead of Stevens but they don't poll a lot here in Alaska.
www.begich.com
But, don't forget about the Bradley effect, and young people not voting, and la la la.....
Finally, some sane metrics that's beyond the media spin!
The Electoral College and Unemployment
Hello all. I've been lurking here for a while. Totally addicted to 538.com. Thanks, Nate, for all the great work — and for causing me to lose countless hours of sleep...
I never took the whole PUMA thing very seriously and never saw any real evidence for their existence in any numbers. If they did exist I agree that the Palin pick was a tactic that completely backfired. Hasn't that been typical of the McCain campaign? Lacking a coherent strategy today's tactic was very likely to wipe out any advantage gained by yesterday's tactic.
I think McCain is toast, especially if it is true that he is giving up on Colorado. I'm still going to be spending all my spare time (when I'm not here, that is...) volunteering until every last Obama voter here in NE Ohio has done her/his bit!
Side note: If progressive taxes are socialist, the US has been a socialist country since 1862 when the first income tax was levied.
I should point out that the real reason McCain is now putting all his chips on Pennsylvania is that he's looking ever more likely to lose BOTH Colorado AND Virginia, as well as New Mexico and Iowa, and he has little chance to flip New Hampshire.
He needs to try something BIG! If he loses Virginia + Colorado + New Mexico + Iowa, he could still get back to 273 EV by winning Pennsylvania and holding the rest of the Bush 2004 states.
noiateerickson said...
I had a friend interning at CNN this Summer and part of his internship duty was to proofread stories on the "Political Ticker" and sort through the comments to eliminate any with profanity etc....He said everyone in his office always had a laugh whenever they would check the IP addresses of the so called "PUMAs"...It was always the same one or two IP addresses posting under hundreds of different names (HillaryDemInPA, Hill4McCain, PUMANOBAMA, etc etc etc). When he told me this story, I couldn't help but chuckle thinking that it was Will Bower (the pathetic leader of this non-existent pack) frantically posting from his Mom's basement...
ROFL
Oh, that is some seriously funny shit. And it also makes me so happy to see that my instincts were right. =)
First, all of us who truly love America should catch the 10/20/08 Daily Show. John Stewart really gets to the nub... don't miss the tour of Wasilla in the second segment!
Second check this! Ken Adelman - neocon extrodinaire - for Obama!
(it's like the Nazi's who saw the allies bearing down on them and wanted to make sure they were on the right side of the "reconning")
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/georgepacker/2008/10/not-quite-colin.html
And last, check this Suffolk poll of Ohio attitudes about "Joe the Plumpshire"
(btw this pollster is very accurate apparently)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/20/joe-the-plumber-tanks-in_n_136216.html
If everybody paid the same percentage of their income for sales taxes and gasoline taxes and all other hidden taxes or even HAD TO PAY for their own gasoline, food and perks we would have this here budget balanced in six months.
Just for yuks, I decided to head on over to the hillaryis44 website to see what it's like today. Expecting it to be largely deserted, I was surprised to see that their still at it strong! It's just a handful of nutjobs, but boy are they in for a penny, in for a pound.
If you thought the hardcore McCain folks were in deep, deep denial of reality -- well, the McCain wackos don't hold a candle to these folks. I just read the most recent commentary thread, and it's pretty...bizarre.
Here's just one interesting quote I pulled out: "And so now - BHO flys to Hawaii to visit his “ailing” granny - oh puleeze. He and the Mob are descending on the islands to snuff out - probably literally and figuratively Andy Martin uncovering the truth about BHO, by buying off the judicial benches, threatening and following through on every conceivable tactic to drive Andy Martin et al off the islands before they can report anything. This is the most obvious strong arm maneuver to date by the BHO camp. Thugs from the Windy City swarm the island like a bunch of Navy seals. Disgusting…………….C’mon FOX NEWS!!!!!!! REPORT THIS!!!!!"
Compared to hillaryis44, the loons at redstate are pikers, I tell you! Pikers!
A lovely sight... the Zogby Tuesday track.
www.zogby.com
Savor that graphic with the red and blue lines DIVERGING!!
I refreshed the page a dozen times... beautiful...
if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
"jb56, the person making $1 million is stil paying a larger % of their income."
Factual, but not true. The lower income earner pays far more of their income, as a percentage, towards the essentials of life, however you may want to define them (typically food, shelter, clothing, health), than the higher income earner. This means that while their tax rate may be lower, it is actually a higher percentage of their income after essentials.
thank you for this site. its wonderful to have a rational, reliable place to go to see what is going on. posts like this one are why this site is on my must-see list at least five (ok fifteen) times a day. :)
A funny thing happened to John McCain on his way to the White House...
He channeled Adolf Hitler and lost his way.
Will he have the guts and good sense to reign in his Reich when this is over?
He has clearly gone mad with
power-lust and McCain First... sad and dangerous.
I don't know how he recovers from this pool of bile... I hope he can.
It stuns me that "party unity" is down among the GOP even with Palin leading the charge.
Pardon the tinfoil-hattery, but do you suppose there could be large numbers of new voters who are purposely registering as Republican while planning to vote Democrat, having heard the disenfranchisement stories and figuring that a GOP registration is less likely to be fraudulently thrown out?
Green said...
A lovely sight... the Zogby Tuesday track.
www.zogby.com
Savor that graphic with the red and blue lines DIVERGING!!
I refreshed the page a dozen times... beautiful...
Oh, this is gonna be fun. I can't wait to see how the Repugs try to spin this.
Have you heard that Zogby is the most accurate pollster of all time? I have!!!! They've been telling us that for a couple of weeks now!!!!
But, clearly, Zogby has lost his way. He must be a racist. That's it. Zogby hates white people, and he only just now remembered that. =)
That's so cool about Adelman. Looks like the GOP is really coming apart at the seams. Everyone in the party that can actually think beyond the level of a sixth grader is abandoning ship before it goes on the rocks. I've been seeing this happening for a while now — even with a few people I know.
On the same topic, has anybody seen what is happening to Michele Bachmann in Minnesota's 6th district? (I think it
's the 6th...) Seems like her opponent has raised around $700K in new donations from all over the country since the Bachmann rant hit the air. I hear the DNC is kicking in another $1M. This can only be good news for Obama in MN. Is there such a thing as "reverse coat-tails"?
BTW, Bachmann is a serious nut-job. To call her views extreme would be a major understatement. She and Palin have obviously supped at the same trough...
"So, how much should the vote of one of these "people who don't contribute as much" be worth??? 3/5ths of a person of means, perhaps?
We already had this discussion as a nation. Go read a history book.
One person, one vote."
It should be scaled to how much of their income to the government as a whole. I guess 35% right now would be a full vote so if you only pay 10%, then 10/35 = 2/7 of a vote for you.
The 3/5 of a person idea was before the progressive income tax, so NO, we did not have this discussion already.
"The lack of PUMAs is due in part to Palin being too far right for the annoyed Democrats to consider voting for and the "coming home" that happens naturally as the emotions from the primaries wear off."
Palin's not too far night...it's just that democrats are too far left to begin with.
"Factual, but not true. The lower income earner pays far more of their income, as a percentage, towards the essentials of life, however you may want to define them (typically food, shelter, clothing, health), than the higher income earner. This means that while their tax rate may be lower, it is actually a higher percentage of their income after essentials."
But essentials should not be factored into the equation.
If a person who makes a low amount of money, cannot afford the essentials after paying the flat income tax percentage, then he should get a 2nd job or work more hours.
"Pardon the tinfoil-hattery, but do you suppose there could be large numbers of new voters who are purposely registering as Republican while planning to vote Democrat, having heard the disenfranchisement stories and figuring that a GOP registration is less likely to be fraudulently thrown out?"
I doubt the average american would even have heard the disenfranchisement story to begin with, much less formulating a plan to get their vote counted, much less actually carrying that plan out.
DNFTT
"That's so cool about Adelman. Looks like the GOP is really coming apart at the seams. Everyone in the party that can actually think beyond the level of a sixth grader is abandoning ship before it goes on the rocks. I've been seeing this happening for a while now — even with a few people I know."
Palin's right. You live in fake America. The politically-correct, liberal, affirmative action, fag America.
Real America is the moderates on right.
I'm not a troll.
Why is it not that if someone supports McCain, he's automatically a troll?
It sucks to be McCain. Team Lobby has let the fake maverick down.
So I'm not convinced. Surely McCain isn't winning his party by much more than Obama, but half the polls look like they're within the margin of error, as does the average.
And some PUMAs almost certainly still exist: they were, what, 18% of the Democratic electorate? While some of them have almost certainly come over to Obama, many probably haven't.
equinenurse,
The electoral vote pie chart represents the "expected value" of the electoral votes from the 10,000 simulations. It works like this: Say you have a lottery in which you have a 50% chance of winning $2 and a 1% chance of winning $1000 and a 49% chance of not winning anything. The "expected value" of one lottery ticket would be 50% of $2 plus 1% of $1000 which totals $11. If you got thousands of lottery tickets you would average $11 a piece. But notice that you can never actually win $11, you can only win $0, $2, or $1000.
The Electoral Vote pie chart is the found by taking each possible electoral vote result times the fraction of the time that result shows up in the 10,000 simulations, and adding them all together. It shows you who is more likely to go over the magic 270 threshold, and a sense of by how much, but I don't think it gives as good an idea about the range of possibilities as the Electoral Vote Distribution chart that it is based on.
In fact, the pie chart can be downright misleading if the electoral vote distribution is very strange. To make up an extreme unlikely example, pretend that in 4,000 of the simulations the Democratic ticket got all 538 electoral votes, and in the remaining 6,000 got 268. Then the expected value, which shows up on the pie chart, would be ((538*4000)+(268*6000))/10000 which is 376. That looks like a nice big number for the Dems, but it represents only a 40% chance of winning because they have a 40% chance of getting 538 electoral votes, and a 60% chance of getting 268 votes.
Of course any realistic simulation is not going to come up with such a skewed result, so the pie chart is more likely to be useful.
@Aussie
Looks like we're moving back to Australia, this time in Western Australia (Albany), one of the most beautiful parts of the world. I can tell this with confidence, since I lived in Italy, Germany, France, UK, USA, NZ, and Eastern Australia.
I can't wait to get out of this polluted and crowded European Continent.
Cheers mate.
moondancer said...
It sucks to be McCain. Team Lobby has let the fake maverick down.
So true. Obviously they are now concentrating desperately on maintaining their own seats. As they say, all politics is local.
I almost feel sorry for them.
"But essentials should not be factored into the equation."
To take that argument to its logical conclusion then, businesses should calculate the tax they pay on gross income.
"You live in fake America."
Actually I live just down the road a bit from Joe the Plumber which is —according to the New and Approved Palin Geography — about as real as America gets.
BTW all your arguments about taxes are about as wrong as they could be, but this isn't the forum for a discussion of taxation — or am I mistaken?
Has the Troll left yet?
Is it safe to start talking again?
lol broberts, I doubt that troll knows the slightest thing about accounting!
niedda said...
@Aussie
Looks like we're moving back to Australia, this time in Western Australia (Albany), one of the most beautiful parts of the world. I can tell this with confidence, since I lived in Italy, Germany, France, UK, USA, NZ, and Eastern Australia.
I can't wait to get out of this polluted and crowded European Continent.
Cheers mate.
GREAT news! Well done. Beautiful but cold there cobber!
zogby has O 50.3 M 42.4 - alltime high and low for his tracker. He is an advocate of cooking data as long as the final result is correct. He must have seen something very interesting, and credible, in order to obtain this drammatic shift: Obama gets 12 % of registered repubblican choice.
This is the Powell bounce and the ensuing divisions inside the GOP.
Powell is moving repubblicans not the undecided.
niedda, sorry I took so long to reply. Somehow I missed your post while scoll deleting a troll.
What's your trade?
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1600
Yeah, yeah, DNFTT, whatever. ATUMA (anti-troll unity my ass).
"The 3/5 of a person idea was before the progressive income tax, so NO, we did not have this discussion already."
"The beating your wife with a rod not thicker than your thumb idea was before the modern feminist movement, so NO, we did not have this discussion already."
EPIC FAIL.
"Palin's not too far night...it's just that democrats are too far left to begin with."
ROFL. The democrats are NOT LEFT. AT ALL. Sorry. That is a delusion unique to Americans. If Obama ran anywhere else in the world and his opponent tried to smear him as "socialist", the MSM of that country would laugh in his opponent's face.
"If a person who makes a low amount of money, cannot afford the essentials after paying the flat income tax percentage, then he should get a 2nd job or work more hours."
News flash: many if not most of these people already do.
Do you even know what the minimum wage is in your state? Take half a minute and try to imagine how you would live on that amount of money. Keep in mind that many people in this position are single parents through no fault of their own.
"Why is it not that if someone supports McCain, he's automatically a troll?"
It's not because you support McCain that you're a troll. It's because you say things like
"You live in fake America. The politically-correct, liberal, affirmative action, fag America."
that you're a troll. Fuck you in your self-righteous, homophobic ass.
cora said...
This is the Powell bounce and the ensuing divisions inside the GOP.
Powell is moving repubblicans not the undecided.
Yes - it was the perfect bitch slap. It has made huge news in Australia - as it should. Colin Powell's reputation remained pretty much intact down under.
I just can't wait till 11/4.
Zahlman said...
Yeah, yeah, DNFTT, whatever. ATUMA (anti-troll unity my ass).
Ha Ha Ha HA HA HA
Excellent!!
Post of the Day!
Thanks for the heads-up on the Zogby tracking poll. Beautiful!!!
Hope this isn't old news for all you regulars, but there's some sweet numbers in this NYT call-back poll:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/us/politics/21poll.html?ref=politics
Also the internals on the WaPo/ABC poll are quite tasty, though I'm sure the Republican spin will be that the overall margin among RVs has shrunk from 13% to 10%. OTOH among LVs the margin has only tightened by one point, from 10% to 9%. Almost all the other news in the internals is bad for McCain.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/postpoll_102008.html
And in case this is all old news, here, by way of apology, is a great read by Richard Cohen from RCP. The concluding sentence reads: [This is] "the second time that a senator from Arizona has led the GOP into the political wilderness." Sweet, no?
I think Browkaw was in shock after Powell gave his speech lol
That was a truly unique speech in American Political History. It will be disected and studied for decades to come.
I'm an economist and my wife a scientist in forestry. We'll be doing forestry again once in Albany.
Albany climate is actually milder than Canberra's, but relatively "cold" if you come from the Northern part of W.A.
I we took a train from Sydney to Perth two years ago, once in Perth, rented a car and traveled extensively in Western Australia to explore it during the wild flowers season, late September/October.
I always prayed to God to take me back to this beautiful place.
I'm really happy.
Hey IfMcCainDoesn'tWin:
The American Revolution was fought to free us from ideas such as the ones you're espousing.
Do you also believe that every American should be forced to practice Christianity?
Oops! Forgot the link. Sorry 'bout that...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/10/powell_leaves_the_gop_rubble.html
"Do you even know what the minimum wage is in your state? Take half a minute and try to imagine how you would live on that amount of money. Keep in mind that many people in this position are single parents through no fault of their own."
Our min. wage is $7.15 an hour. But that's not important really because you can easily find jobs that pay much higher than that with little education.
Most single parent situations are from 20-year old couples who have 5kids and then divorce and that is terrible judgmenet.
I don't feel sorry for them not exercising self-control and waiting until they're older to raise a family slower.
As for the families who lost a parent due to disease, well you should have been saving up money all this time, to prepare for such a problem.
"This is the Powell bounce and the ensuing divisions inside the GOP.
Powell is moving repubblicans not the undecided."
This is bogus. Would Democrats vote for McCain if Rudy Giulani endorsed McCain?
And besides, if you change your vote, because of who someone else endorses, then you were an undecided to begin with.
"Do you also believe that every American should be forced to practice Christianity?"
Well they should practice some form of an established monotheistic religion.
Dear "if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed",
What you believe in is called plutocracy. It is not democracy. You can believe in whatever you want, but please get your terms right.
Ladies and gentlemen, I bring you the Confluence.
http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/
Enough to keep you laughing for hours. I particularly like the second post about 'heresy' and 'right-wing talking points'.
Damn, I can't resist it for much longer.
If 'if McCain doesn't win, America is screwed' is a 'real American', he stands where John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and Nicholas Biddle stood, rather than where Jefferson and Jackson and Lincoln stood. He denegrates our God-given right to influence the course of our destiny and form, through our consent, our political system. Shame on him.
What makes what I believe in, a plutocracy versus democracy?
"As for the families who lost a parent due to disease, well you should have been saving up money all this time, to prepare for such a problem."
Aw, you've descended into a run of the mill troll. If you want to be fed you shouldn't appear so mindless.
How am I being mindless? I truly believe what I said there. Most likely that parent dies well into the lifetime of the family, so they had plenty of years to buy a life insurance policy and save up money in other areas.
McCain campaign now working on a strategy to win without winning any State whatsoever.
McCain's New Strategy: whoever wins the most empty square miles, devoid of human beings, wins the race!
Oh, no, that's not what I was saying.
What I was saying is that everyone in the 35% tax bracket, the top one, would be paying the largest ratio possible, so 35/35 = 1 full vote for them.
Meanwhile the lowest tax bracket at 10% would only equal a vote of 10/35 = 2/7 of a vote.
Those kind of ratios would not result in 60.14% of the power being concentrated in the Top 5% of earners.
Holding on to more of the DEM vote than McCain's share of the GOP vote is impressive.
The Young are natural Dem's because they want a fair chance. Haven been given the chance and made their money they then vote GOP because the last thing they want is to have some taken away to give the next generation a fair chance.
So some who voted, and registered, Dem in their youth are now GOP, but why bother to change their registration? Indeed why admit they are GOP, and have abandoned their principles? So much easier to say they are dem, but just can't vote for the latest candidate because...
if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
"This is the Powell bounce and the ensuing divisions inside the GOP.
Powell is moving repubblicans not the undecided."
This is bogus. Would Democrats vote for McCain if Rudy Giulani endorsed McCain?
............
could be, I don't have all your certainty. But it is sound reasoning. The answer to your question about Giuliani endorsing Mccain: it's allready happened and no, Democrats wouldn't vote McCain for this. Why should they ?
My answer would have been different had you asked:
Would Democrats vote for McCain if Hillary Clinton endorsed McCain?
Guys.
IMcCDWAIS is not a troll, give him a break. He is merely a narcissist.
140 or so posts this thread
20-25 by him/her.
Quite a batting average!
Anyway, McCain's only hope is to keep it close enough in PA that his party's shenanigans can deliver him the state in non-suspicious fashion.
If he can cut his deficit to 3 points by Nov 4, it won't look like fraud when he steals it.
So BO's best option is just to win VA and NC and MO and FL so that PA doesn't matter. I think very highly of the GOP's ability to "influence" votes to their advantage. But even they cannot thieve 5 states in a single election.
To keep the actual discussion going, here's a point a non-troll made earlier:
broberts said...
The lower income earner pays far more of their income, as a percentage, towards the essentials of life, however you may want to define them (typically food, shelter, clothing, health), than the higher income earner. This means that while their tax rate may be lower, it is actually a higher percentage of their income after essentials.
Nicely stated -- this is something the Repugs refuse to acknowledge in their specious flat-tax arguments.
Here's another way I would illustrate it: Imagine that a person has absolutely no possessions and no income, and there is no social network to provide aid. As long as this state persists, every waking hour will be spent on subsistence, i.e. acquiring basic sustenance and shelter.
Now, let's say that person finds a nice stash of food that provides more than necessary for survival, allowing some to be stored. He can now spend some time investing in himself -- building a better shelter, sharpening a new spear -- to make it easier to subsist. (You can also invest in yourself in the form of downtime, relaxing and recuperating both physically and mentally, making it easier to operate at peak capacity when needed -- ultimately, this is the origin of entertainment.)
This investment grows geometrically, making it easier and easier to survive while allowing a greater and greater share of his time to be spent on further investment. Put another way, investment is not directly proportional to income or wealth. A hunter-gatherer might spend 10% of his time on investment; a pastoralist might spend 20%; a farmer might spend 50%.
Now, it's pretty clear how this translates to modern life: The more money you have (in income and wealth), the greater percentage you're able to invest rather than simply spend on consumption (rent, food, car, etc.).
And where do taxes fit in? Well, by now it should be obvious: Taxes are investment in the nation. They pay for improvements in infrastructure, police, rescue, and so forth, making it easier to earn dividends in other pursuits. (For example, it's very hard to earn money in transportation if there are no good roads, and it's hard to keep your investments safe if there are no police.)
And before any of the right-wingers make a "free market" argument, even the dimmest free marketeer knows about economies of scale. It's not feasible to build just one lane of an interstate highway, or just enough military to protect your own house. (You either defend all the borders, or you're effectively defending none of them.)
So:
* We have the need to invest in public goods (i.e. nonexcludable, or nearly so) that are subject to economies of scale that make private ownership woefully inefficient.
* Individuals with greater resources spend a greater percentage on investment.
* Ergo, progressive taxation is the best way to handle these common needs. Since investment is nonlinear, so too must taxation be nonlinear.
And that's why the rich get larger tax bills. Any proposal for "flat taxes" is ultimately a case of either woeful lack of understanding or gross intellectual dishonesty.
Related note: This is also why the Reaganomics trickle-down concept doesn't work. Dollar-for-dollar, tax cuts given to the rich will be spent on things other than consumption. (Remember that my broad definition of "investment," in this context, includes luxuries and such.)
Since consumption drives demand, and demand is what makes suppliers willing to invest in greater capacity, tax cuts to the wealthy will have far less effect in a slow economy than tax cuts to the middle class and working class.
Now, why is it best not to give tax cuts to the wealthy in addition tax cuts for the middle and working classes? Well, you still need to pay the bills -- if you keep running up deficits, you devalue your currency (compare the US dollar to the Canadian dollar over the past few decades), and that is effectively a tax hike on everyone (and it disproportionately affects those who spend most of their income on consumption rather than interest-bearing investments).
Ah, but why not simply reduce spending and cut taxes for the rich? Well, that government spending creates jobs, closing a recessionary gap to reach full employment and efficiency in the economy. If you were to cut spending just to give a tax cut to the rich, unemployment would skyrocket, and now you have a real depression.
Proof?
Let's say that Y is the point at which you're in equilibrium (full employment, no recessionary gap from unemployment and no inflationary gap from overspending and scarcity). If you have an economy with, say, $2.5 trillion in fixed spending (essentially subsistence) and that spends 80% of discretionary income on consumption (the other 20% on savings), then you can solve for the point of equilibrium:
Y = $2.5T + 0.8(Y)
Y = $12.5T
Now, let's add government -- let's say you take out $3 trillion in taxes and spend the whole thing (balanced budget):
Y = $2.5T + 0.8(Y - $3T) + $3T
Y = $15.5T
See that? Even though you have a balanced budget, you're increasing the equilibrium income for the economy. If you're in a recessionary gap, this spending provides jobs and reduces structural unemployment.
Now, you don't want to overshoot or you create an inflationary gap, devaluing your currency. In fact, this is one reason that it's such a bad idea to run a really large deficit for a long period. Let's see what would happen if you only taxed $2.5 trillion instead of $3 trillion:
Y = $2.5T + 0.8(Y - $2.5T) + $3T
Y = $17.5T
See how that works? If your "full employment" level is less than $17.5 trillion, then your currency will devalue due to inflation; worse, you racked up $500 billion in debt, which will increase your necessary spending next year, accelerating the problem.
After a while, you have runaway debt -- which is pretty much where Bush & Co. have left us.
Now, it doesn't hurt to carry some debt, just as it doesn't hurt to have a mortgage ... if you can afford the payments. In fact, the best reason for deficit spending is to help pull out of a recession or depression -- but it has to be done carefully to avoid overshooting and wrecking your currency, and thus it's best not to cut taxes on the wealthy during such times. And if your debt is truly out of control, you must bring it back in line, even if it means raising taxes on the rich.
One last point that the Repugs love to overlook: Obama's budget costs $1.5 trillion less than McCain's, according to the Tax Policy Center. (Giving away $300 billion in tax cuts to the rich is essentially a massive earmark that provides welfare for the rich as the expense of a giant tax hike -- inflation -- on everyone else.) Therefore, Obama's plan results in smaller deficits (and thus less inflation) while simultaneously generating more jobs and higher employment rates with pay-as-you-go spending. Obama's plan is exactly what you should do during an economic downturn, and McCain's is a guaranteed trainwreck.
So, the next time some idiot right-winger starts spewing his talking points without having ever taken a class in economics, feel free to copy and paste this. =)
"How am I being mindless? I truly believe what I said there."
$7.15 / hour, 60 hours week, 52 weeks / year = $22,308. I'll be generous and forget that unemployment is over 6%. Let's presume one finds a "well paying" job at $10 / hour, 60 hours week, 52 weeks / year = $31,200. Yeah, that's truly a wage on which a family can save for a rainy day.
5 kids by age 20 is theoretically possible, but I don't recall a single case of such. Divorced no less. How did they afford the divorce? There is no such thing as "most single parent situations". Although it's probably safe to assume that a large portion of that group is female.
In any case, 60 hour work weeks are not usually an option in single parent families.
"Most single parent situations are from 20-year old couples who have 5kids and then divorce and that is terrible judgmenet."
I couldn't find any statistics for the US, but the average age of single parents on welfare in British Columbia is 33, and the average number of kids they have is 1.7. Reality has a liberal bias once again!
Cugel said...
"This is just amazing to me! The McCain campaign is now quietly giving up in Colorado and New Mexico!
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/20/mccain_giving_up_on_colorado.html
"McCain Giving Up on Colorado
CNN reports that top officials of Sen. John McCain's campaign are "making tough decisions" as they now see Colorado, New Mexico and Iowa no longer winnable.
Instead, the campaign's "risky strategy" is counting on Florida, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Virginia, and a comeback in Pennsylvania.
The McCain campaign responds: "We see the race tightening both internally and in public polling. We are within striking distance in the key battleground states we need to win."
That's just so hopelessly desperate to give up on 3 states George Bush carried in 2004, with 2 weeks to go in the election."
Meaning no offense to you directly Cugel, but this article makes use of such a horrid slaughtering of the english language that I simply cannot stand to even contemplate the supposed logic contained within. To call anything that McCain has done to this point as being part of a "strategy" simply defies any metric or application of common sense. It quite frankly is a complete and utter insult to the very concept of a strategy.
As near as I can make it, McCain got through the Republican primaries due to being the least attachable to Bush and the Republican stigma. On top of that, the fractured membership of the party as a whole waged a form of scorched earth campaign that made the other options unpalatable and unelectable to some portion of their main party, coming down to McCain as the only one left standing. Quite similar to the description of how Palin herself was selected in fact. McCain is clearly of the opinion that he is the correct choice and that everyone would naturally agree with him and this colored the rest of his choices. In fact one might almost conclude he feels he is somehow owed this office due to his life long service to the country. With this view in hand, and the past republican party wins it was assumed that victory was in hand, particularly with his hope of a deeply divided democratic party after a highly polarizing primary of their own.
Obama on the other hand did his homework in advance and studied the primary system so as to map out a plan of attack prior to beginning his actions. He laid out a framework and what's more, he went back and studied it to see where it was working and where it wasn't. Throughout the primaries he continued to make adjustments, perfecting his ground game and passing along what worked to the other elements to ensure a more consistant effort. While the longer democratic primary did serve to polarize and somewhat divide the party, it was due not to efforts to find the least objectionable candidate as the republicans were, but rather to determine the best of the two available. This, along with many bad choices made by the McCain camp (Sarah Palin anyone?) allowed the disaffected to come back into the fold quite easily given enough time. It also meant that the party as a whole had driven up enthusiasm and registration which when added to an already well established ground game meant that Obama was in a position to make a very strong and likely unexpected start to his campaigning process. The ground game was very much overlooked because the republican camp didn't expect it out of a democrat. The enthusiasm allowed him to tap millions of smaller income families for tiny donations that still built to record gains without running afoul of or having to depend on lobbiers and business for the bulk of his campaign funding.
Now, let's look at the comparative status of the campaigns. McCain has forced himself into positions where he has to constantly change his theme. He started on experience/readiness on day 1 but had to change that due to his VP pick. Since then he has gone at Obama with a kitchen sink strategy in the vain hopes that something would stick. Had he figured out what would stick in advance and run with it he'd likely be much further along. In addition, his message has quite often gone counter to the obvious desire of the public. When the economy was their top concern and they were turned off by negative ads he pushed Ayers for example. He's never been consistant, nor has he been in step with the voters as a whole. He's spent most of his time trying to energize the base he should have already had locked up from the primaries, but that very effort turned off many independants and democrats to his message. Again, no strategy present at all througout.
Obama on the other hand has worked non-stop to present the same message over and over again. Do you think it is by chance or accident that so many of his supporters kept mentioning "No Drama Obama"? No, this was long decided to be part of his overall longterm strategy to win the presidency, as was the ground game, fund raising and other factors. Just as he has carefully watched what it was the public wanted and presented it to them. They wanted details on policy/issues/economy and he's made sure to provide a level or two greater than McCain at all times. He's seen the public ranting against negativity and personal attacks and so he's been wise to refrain from them himself. He's studied the past and was prepared for the suppression efforts and retaliated immediately, he simply had to wait for the republicans to take the first shot. He's seen the perils of complacency and so his staff continues to push the issue and keep the enthusiasm up as best they can. THIS my friends is what strategy looks like when done right.
On top of that, he's managed to put the republican party itself in a horrible spot. They were matching funds with McCain to help overcome the spending gap between the campaigns. While I'm sure the DNC was also aiding Obama, they didn't have to invest nearly as much and so could focus more on individual senatorial campaigns that were themselves being aided by "coattailing" on Obama. He also opened his own ground centers to those races, having his staff aid in many of those races directly. But more importantly, the RNC is in a quandry. Every dollar they spend on the lost cause of McCain could potentially cost them another senatorial seat. But the more they pull out of the presidential race, the more lopsided the spending becomes. In addition, you can see in states like Virgina, Florida and Maine where the message that McCain is trying to push is negatively impacting the party itself in those states and you can see them backing off from him at the state levels. The whole point of the full court press, or 50 state strategy is to force the republicans to cut back their level of support for McCain to try to salvage sentate seats which in turn forces McCain to cut back on his efforts in Kerry states and even many Bush states. This in effect is what has pushed McCain into having only a single path to victory as it were and has forced him to focus on an outcome that requires he win EVERY tossup state AND flip PA. With Obama having dictated the battle to McCain in this manner rather than McCain dictating what states Obama is allowed to compete in, the advantage is clearly Obama's. With the overwhelming mismatch in funds, McCain has to try to anticipate where precisely in those states that Obama will attack and how to counteract it, neither of which he or his staff of advisors have managed to this point. In addition, Obama doesn't have to focus on a single one, but instead can apply overwhelming pressure to multiple points.
I agree we cannot become complacent, but then the early voting in so many battle ground states is helping to ensure we don't as is the GOTV ground game. However, I think it is clear not only who has earned a victory in this race, but also who would best serve America by winning and applying the same degree of thought to running our great nation.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
I find it somewhat unbelievable that McCain is going all out for PA at the expense of CO.
But let's just assume it is true. How can he win PA? I think the natural response is he can't, but let's assume that he has a plan that looks plausable. It will also have to cover FL and OH.
I think Wright is about to get some more prime time exposure.
There are two other posibilities:
McCain may have no plan at all, and is just running down the clock till he can go home & write his memours.
PA is a fake. McCain has admitted defeat, but is pushing resorces into suporting downticket candidates.
if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
..........................
And besides, if you change your vote, because of who someone else endorses, then you were an undecided to begin with.
........................
maybe something NEW made you change your decision. Happens.
BTW "if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed" your post ID is a bit long, do you mind if I shorten it to "McCain is screwed" from now on ?
"To call anything that McCain has done to this point as being part of a "strategy" simply defies any metric or application of common sense. It quite frankly is a complete and utter insult to the very concept of a strategy."
I'm still laughing. Well put.
Or, McCain figures that PA is the likeliest big state to break his way in the event of a major foreign crisis or major Obama scandal. And as we discussed last week when he was spending time in IA, he has to be somewhere and spend his $ somewhere, after all.
I still think the R apparatus has something up its sleeve in case PA is close. With the MSM blathering on and on and on about eh Bradley effect, a narrow McCain win could look unsuspicious.
But will McCain really bring out Wright and Rezko while Obama is at his grandmother's deathbed? That's risky, even by McCain's standards of maverickity.
Blame said...
"I find it somewhat unbelievable that McCain is going all out for PA at the expense of CO.
But let's just assume it is true. How can he win PA? I think the natural response is he can't, but let's assume that he has a plan that looks plausable. It will also have to cover FL and OH.
I think Wright is about to get some more prime time exposure."
And this goes back to what I said about a total lack of strategy on his part if he does go there. The truth is, they've gone there since day one. Every time they say "Wright is off the table" or some talking head of theirs says "Wright may make a comeback" that is a mention of Wright. And it is quite clear how well that worked. It is an essential non-issue just as Ayers was because it really HAS already been ground into the dirt. Those for whom it is an issue have already taken issue to it. Those that didn't know about the "estemed" Reverend have likely looked him up by now. It may get him a point or two perhaps, but it will likely be missed amidst the tightening of the race itself. McCain's only chance is to actually come up with something new, not rehashing the old talking points and particularly the trashing someone's character ones as polling has already shown they don't play out well. Besides, on that particular topic the counter is already too evident. Play clips of McCain saying he won't go there and show he's a liar and desperate.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
Blame said...
"I find it somewhat unbelievable that McCain is going all out for PA at the expense of CO"
It's a question of electoral colleges and money. Really a last-stand move. Mc's campaign believes there is more potential breaking ground (racism ?) in PA than CO. So expect tons of robocalls and Wright in PA which wouldn't resound well in westcoasternizing hispanicising CO. PA carries more electoral colleges. Winning CO and losing PA gives them 0 chances. Also their money line is getting thinner and thinner.
It's game over for McCain. The question is how large is Obama's win.
Currently Kerry States + IA are rated solid O states (per RCP) yielding 259 EVs. O only requires 11 more EV's from any combination of Dem leaning states. NM, VA, CO, MO, NC, NV, OH, FL.
The probability of O winning all the Kerry states is 90%, whilst the winning election is slightly better at 92% which is a little counter-intuitive for a non maths type person, but excellent probabilities never the less.
Also note in EV distribution graph, the no of simulations of most frequent EV win scenarios has risen sharply from around 600 -800 times to 1,100 to 1,500 times in the last 2-3 days.
As election day approaches, the height of the most frequent EV win scenario may not fit on the page!!!!! (tongue-in-cheek)
Rick
Flip flopping is a long established campaign tradition. If McCain wants to push Wright he can find an excuse.
You are correct in saying that Wright is old news. Wright has been (from the GOP point of view) anoyingly quiet, but are we sure there is no more dirt to be dug from that mine?
Even if there is truly nothing new and alarming to say on the topic, it can be manufactured. The trick is to make acusations too close to the election for an effective rebutal.
I am not saying this is going to happen, just trying to make sense of an aparantly crazy stratergy.
How the Base was Won
Blame said...
"Rick
Flip flopping is a long established campaign tradition. If McCain wants to push Wright he can find an excuse.
You are correct in saying that Wright is old news. Wright has been (from the GOP point of view) anoyingly quiet, but are we sure there is no more dirt to be dug from that mine?
Even if there is truly nothing new and alarming to say on the topic, it can be manufactured. The trick is to make acusations too close to the election for an effective rebutal.
I am not saying this is going to happen, just trying to make sense of an aparantly crazy stratergy."
1) If there truly were new dirt as you suggest is possible, promise or no they'd have brought him out right then and there if they have no issues with breaking the promise now. They've been down in the polls for quite some time and if they had a true story that could have blunted Obama's progress they'd have gone with it by now. Pulling out Wright or Rezko at this late a date can only seem to be desperation at nothing else having stuck is my estimation.
2) Yes, as shown by their attempts with Ayers they can leave it at suggestions and inuendo to avoid that pesky need for facts. However, that discounts Obama's planned half hour addresses. To be effective they'd have to wait until after Obama speaks if they truly wish to avoid giving him a chance to respond, yet the longer they wait the less impact it will have due to lack of repetition and time to sink in and stir a panic.
I'm not trying to suggest they won't do it, just toss out my arm chair analyst view of the chances of success based on how the past few months have run with the electorate.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
Does anyone know what happens to money that the Obama campaign might have left over? (Maybe this is a ridiculous assumption. I don't know.) If they raised $150 million in September, I think they might raise $250 million in October. I know I was saving money for the last stretch, so I think others might have done that, too. Plus the campaign is tightening a bit, the mud is flying from the McCain camp, and folks are fighting with their credit cards. What are the campaign rules about leftovers? I can't imagine there will be any loans to repay. Does he help pay off Hillary's debt? Can they choose to donate to charity? With such hard economic times ahead, it would seem that Obama would choose to help others, maybe not even Hillary, but groups that would help folks in real dire straits. Just curious, if he has the embarrassment of riches, in a time like this, what does he do with it? TIA for any information or thoughts.
Rick
Then we are much in agreement. They may well try it, and it won't work.
caregive
I am not exactly certain, but I think they ether give it back, or find sufficient givers willing to agree for the money to be diverted.
At a guess, Obama would ask for permission to divert to the DNC.
I am not sure how quickly money can be spent, but if there is still time Obama might start diverting contributions down ticket.
Blame
Thanks for your thoughts. I didn't know they could send across to DNC (DCCC too?) with permission. Yes speedy transfer of downticket money would be a monumental task, but could be overwhelmingly effective. I can imagine all of those Rep contenders watching and quaking at this possible tidal wave of funds crashing down over them in the last 2 weeks. *rubs hands together gleefully*
Blame said...
"caregive
I am not exactly certain, but I think they ether give it back, or find sufficient givers willing to agree for the money to be diverted.
At a guess, Obama would ask for permission to divert to the DNC.
I am not sure how quickly money can be spent, but if there is still time Obama might start diverting contributions down ticket."
This would be my guess. I'm not at all sure how the rules read and what the limits are to his options. But I imagine that he'll begin with buying up even more advertising slots if he possibly can in any state that is even remotely reasonable. Even if he has no hope of flipping the state, I have a feeling he'll want to drive down the margin of loss as much as he can.
Second, I have to imagine that directing some of it to Hilary to help her with her debts was part of the bargin to get their support.
Third, aiding downticket races in whatever manner he can. I'm not sure if he can give them money directly, but I imagine he can do some sort of funding split much as the McCain/GOP are doing now. The media blitz I predict in step 1 will already aid this as is, but a more direct impact might also be permitted in the rules. But even if it isn't, his having the money means the DNC can direct their own funds to the senatorial/house races instead which is the same end result really.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
Rick
Thanks - Yes, I would agree that setting precedent for ability to narrow margins of loss would be important for future planning.
I got an email from Obama campaign to give, give, give, as they are making their final decisions about what to do next week. Here goes the credit card again....
Strong moves toward Obama in Zogby and Gallup along with a strong inaugural poll from ABC / Wash Post - We may be seeing something of a "Powell Bump through this week. If we do, then McCain is really screwed, because he essentially loses a week to make up the lead.
What's the speculation about Obama's 30 minute TV time on the 29th? Pro-active discussion of what he plans to do? Reveal his cabinet choices and tell the American people there is no time to waste and they will be meeting starting the day after the election? Defensive discussion to answer all the mud-slinging? Apologizing for delaying the 6th game of the World Series? I haven't heard any discussion of this, but, I haven't looked around really hard. Any thoughts?
caregive
anticipating the contents is something O's campaign has never done. So we can only speculate.
BTW have you noticed there has been no official confirmation over the 150ml sept fundraising ? I guess it could be even bigger.
Antmatic said...
"Strong moves toward Obama in Zogby and Gallup along with a strong inaugural poll from ABC / Wash Post - We may be seeing something of a "Powell Bump through this week. If we do, then McCain is really screwed, because he essentially loses a week to make up the lead."
I think he loses the week on that and also the news of Obama's grandmother. While I'm not saying he won't be insensative enough to attack at the end of the week, I think unless he's actually got something substantative, the focus of the media will likely be on speculation as to her health and whatever bits of information the campaign offers up from Hawaii. I'm not trying to suggest that Obama will be milking this or is staging it as it was already mentioned her health was bad. I'm just trying to judge what the media will focus on based on their normal gossip loving ways.
caregive said...
"What's the speculation about Obama's 30 minute TV time on the 29th? Pro-active discussion of what he plans to do? Reveal his cabinet choices and tell the American people there is no time to waste and they will be meeting starting the day after the election? Defensive discussion to answer all the mud-slinging? Apologizing for delaying the 6th game of the World Series? I haven't heard any discussion of this, but, I haven't looked around really hard. Any thoughts?"
I'd have to guess he is preparing a pro-active view of hope for the future and his plans, but will be prepared to include defensive points if they appear needed. Actually, he has nothing to do with delaying the 6th game. Fox news volunteered to do it so as not to be left out of the cash he's willing to pay for the time slot. So far as I'm aware he didn't try to approach them on it, but instead looked into what other channels he could get to and they chased him down for it.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
cora said...
"caregive
anticipating the contents is something O's campaign has never done. So we can only speculate.
BTW have you noticed there has been no official confirmation over the 150ml sept fundraising ? I guess it could be even bigger."
The Obama campaign actually has a video on their site that was available to anyone on their mailing list before the news really broke on the MSM. Ploufe I believe is the one speaking on it and he states the 150 million quite deffinitively.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
Cugel - I am in GA and working GOTV in an office in 4 black precincts.
GA results are skyrocketing.This is the home of Martin Luther King and our black neighbors are both fired up but people I am talking to are angry at the dear/hate/racist campaign and also the older ones fearful that they are not going to go backwards and lose the gains they have made.
Remember if the final vote has us over 30% for the African American/Latino/Asian along with 30% of the white vote we will win GA.
It is tracking for 10 days now over 36%.
Total Votes - 691,507
Non White Vote - 252,000
% -36.5%
In 2004 20.2% voted early and already 20.8% of 2004 voter totals have already and we have 9 days left!
We are in the process of setting up a 4 precinct GOTV office in southwast Atlanta at the corner of Martin Luther King Dr. and Rev. Joseph Lowery. What a historic corner to stage are efforts to get out the 2700 voters in our area.
Cora
Yes, I wondered when I got the Plouffe email/video that said, "we've raised more than $150 million" and then no firm number. October Surprise = "We raised $190 million, and most of it's coming your way downticket!!"?
John Nail said...
"Cugel - I am in GA and working GOTV in an office in 4 black precincts.
GA results are skyrocketing.This is the home of Martin Luther King and our black neighbors are both fired up but people I am talking to are angry at the dear/hate/racist campaign and also the older ones fearful that they are not going to go backwards and lose the gains they have made."
I think this is one of the strongest tactics within the overall Obama strategy. They aren't stressing vote, they are stressing vote NOW, RIGHT THIS INSTANT, DON'T WAIT! They are pushing this message in every state that allows for early voting to ensure that people don't get complacent day of, particularly on the west coast where they might hear some of the results early. They are looking to bank every single vote they can right here and now. They will continue to push this message and will also keep the pressure up in states such as PA where early voting isn't an option.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
Rick - I agree with you on Obama's grandmother. McCain and Palin need to be VERY careful this week. Their negatives are so high that attacking him while his grandmother is dying will be viewed very negatively by the remaining undecideds. Even some of the religious base would be greatly offended by too much negativity.
One thing that the media missed is that his Wed/Thurs schedule was in Iowa and Wisconsin which he can send a surrogate to or cancel this late those states are rock solid. A rally in Indianapolis is being squeezed in before he leaves so Friday is really the only day he is losing on the trail.
WIth all the media attention
New Daily Tracking Poll
ABC/WashPO
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/
John Nail said...
Cugel - I am in GA and working GOTV in an office in 4 black precincts.
GA results are skyrocketing.
Remember if the final vote has us over 30% for the African American/Latino/Asian along with 30% of the white vote we will win GA.
It is tracking for 10 days now over 36%.
Total Votes - 691,507
Non White Vote - 252,000
% -36.5%
In 2004 20.2% voted early and already 20.8% of 2004 voter totals have already and we have 9 days left!
----
Stunning, just stunning...we have no idea what is coming. We really don't.
John Nail said...
"Rick - I agree with you on Obama's grandmother. McCain and Palin need to be VERY careful this week. Their negatives are so high that attacking him while his grandmother is dying will be viewed very negatively by the remaining undecideds. Even some of the religious base would be greatly offended by too much negativity."
Actually, they might almost be forced to be concilitory at this point in time. While you are right about negativity, even refusing to comment on it and offer sympathy is likely to come off badly for them, particularly given their own already high negatives due to their current tactics. Concider how much it was talked about after the VP debates when Palin had completely ignored Biden breaking up when talking about his rough times early on. If they don't at least offer some well wishes to his grandmother, (white 87 year old woman) they really stand to look horrible. Then on top of that, attacks would make them look worse.
That said, I don't really forsee them avoiding any of the attacks. Concider for a moment the logic that McCain himself has expressed these past weeks. Ayers is in his mind a fair and proper topic because he somehow knows (just as he knows how to get Bin Laden and solve all of our many woes) without a shred of proof that Obama is somehow withholding further items. Any critism directed at McCain is of course baseless and demeaning and should be instantly repudiated by Obama and will draw his ire if it isn't. But any attack launched by McCain is valid and should immediately disqualify Obama for presidency. In short McCain and his advisors are on a wrong way track and have serious tunnel vision. Or as they say in the military, target lock. He is completely fixated and cannot see the truth anywhere around him. Based on that observation, I fully anticipate negative attacks, probably even digging out new ones, Resko would be my guess before Wright and a total lack of any even modest show of sympathy towards Obama's grandmother.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
I'm a Florida PUMA. You can thank PALIN for driving a lot of PUMAS to Obama. Whomever said earlier that Palin is the Anti-PUMA is correct. She is an abomination to most of what Clinton represented, and has brought us back into the fold (this cycle, at least) like recalcitrant children. Next election cycle, I predict the PUMA movement will concentrate on an anti-incumbant drive in Congress. (With Clinton hopefully reprising her run for the Presidency).
If McCain doesn't win... said:
"that means they are contributing a larger slice to society, which means their decision or vote should be worth more than someone who is throwing a few crumbs into the pie."
I'm sorry, I don't usually respond to trolls and feed the fire, and I know that this was said a while ago, but come on... For someone who claims to care for America this statement shows a profound lack of understanding of the history of this country. This kind of nonsense is exactly what the founding fathers (well, some/most of them at least) were fighting against. The idea that one person's vote or opinion was more valuable than another's.
Potion said...
"I'm a Florida PUMA. You can thank PALIN for driving a lot of PUMAS to Obama. Whomever said earlier that Palin is the Anti-PUMA is correct. She is an abomination to most of what Clinton represented, and has brought us back into the fold (this cycle, at least) like recalcitrant children. Next election cycle, I predict the PUMA movement will concentrate on an anti-incumbant drive in Congress. (With Clinton hopefully reprising her run for the Presidency)."
I presume you mean next presidential election cycle. That said, it all likely comes down to how the president in house at the time is doing. Obviously I presume that will be Obama given the current situation. If Obama is showing progress on the issues he has promised and Clinton finds herself in an important role in the senate, I don't forsee her running for president at that point in time. She might however change her mind and run post Obama. If on the other hand Obama is struggling, you are likely right.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
Bill said...
"If McCain doesn't win... said:
"that means they are contributing a larger slice to society, which means their decision or vote should be worth more than someone who is throwing a few crumbs into the pie."
I'm sorry, I don't usually respond to trolls and feed the fire, and I know that this was said a while ago, but come on... For someone who claims to care for America this statement shows a profound lack of understanding of the history of this country. This kind of nonsense is exactly what the founding fathers (well, some/most of them at least) were fighting against. The idea that one person's vote or opinion was more valuable than another's."
Actually, I find some merit in his argument. However, I would amend the suggestion at the same time that we try to make this new law. In my amendment I propose that we alternate the taxing cycles. WHAT?!?! I know, it sounds dramatic. However, what I propose is that during even numbered years those who make the least pay the most taxes and those that make the most pay the least taxes. Then reverse it on odd numbered years.
Oh wait, that would mean that those that make the least would have the most control during election years. Hmmm, oh well, works for me anyways.
I swear to god if Hillary had got the nomination I would have voted McCain. Where would the dem's be right now without a) the message, b) the money, and c) the ground game that Obama has put in play? I never thought Hillary was that strong or that experienced; this proves it.
Obama is planning another 30 min slot on Nov 3rd as well... I think.
I would imagine that Obama has a "final message to the troups" penciled in. But the real point is the oportunity to refute any last minite GOP surprise atack, in detail.
As example, I wouldn't put it past GOP to use a targeted "ni**ers taking white peoples jobs" attack in Ohio & PA. Obama would just expose it, and make gains in every group but brainless white racists.
McCain campaign denies giving up on Colorado
http://www.denverpost.com/politicswestnews/ci_10772643
Charles Crook said...
"McCain campaign denies giving up on Colorado
http://www.denverpost.com/politicswestnews/ci_10772643"
Good. The more they divide their resources and attention they less effective they'll be. At this point their only reasonable chance WAS to pick their states to 270 and run with those, nearly to the exclusion of anything else. And even that would have been a slim chance at best. I invite them to move back into Michigan as well. However, I think the truth of the matter is that it is the Republican Party itself that is pulling out of the various state battles to shift funding to senatorial races they might find winable. I think the writing is on the wall and they now are going to shift their focus to preventing the 60+ senate scenario.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
sigh.
Sadly I work with 2 PUMAs... we haven't talked politics in months but every morning they go over to each other's desks and trade catty barbs and republican talking points. They were so pro-Hil too back in the day... glad to hear they're no longer a statistically significant part of the electorate.
I love the way that trolls leave the site whenever there is in depth detailed discussion of the issues, such as GaMeS brilliant (and available to be copied)essay on taxation! and Ricks (Blue Ohio) dissertation on campaign tactics.
Hell, I thought I had a grasp of these things.
Trolls, I do so love them being overwhelmed. If there is anything more intellectual than name calling they get so intimidated.
Check out this Blog from the Conservative mayor of London, endorsing Obama:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/21/do2101.xml
Jay said...
"sigh.
Sadly I work with 2 PUMAs... we haven't talked politics in months but every morning they go over to each other's desks and trade catty barbs and republican talking points. They were so pro-Hil too back in the day... glad to hear they're no longer a statistically significant part of the electorate."
It's worse for me. I work with a Republican Conservative. Any time I express an opinion he starts to scream bloody murder that I'm brainwashed by the Liberal Media and cannot think for myself. He then goes on to speak all of the Right Wing Small Goverment anti-socialism talking points as if they were his own original thoughts. And yet even he has conceeded defeat though he certainly doesn't enjoy the prospect.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
DKos/R2000:
Obama 50
McCain 42
Last 3 nights individual samples:
Sat O+7
Sun O+8
Mon O+9
One thing to note re:trickle down economics is that the notion that the rich will reinvest their tax savings does not work very well in a global economy. They may do so, but almost all of them - especially in these troubled times for the US - will allocate at least a portion of that tax dividend overseas or into commodities. They may even stuff some under a mattress. The middle class will almost certainly spend that revenue domestically, which has the effect of keeping the money flowing around the economy.
The notion that tax cuts will actually increase government revenue, the other trickle down theory, has little supporting evidence. While it is true that gov revenue increased after the Reagan and Bus tax cuts, there was a LOT else going on - either increases in gov spending (Keynsian stimulus) or drastic cuts in interest rates (Monetarist stimulus).
Rick & Jay,
It is incredibly frustrating trying to convince someone with a closed mind. Mugs.
I love asking them if they think they are better off after 8 years of "W".
It really shuts them up. Have to love cognitive dissonance
PA John said...
DKos/R2000:
Obama 50
McCain 42
Last 3 nights individual samples:
Sat O+7
Sun O+8
Mon O+9
**********
may I borrow a line from Real Joe ???
McCain surge ????
;)
Zogby:
Obama 50
McCain 42
if McCain doesn't win, america is screwed said...
'aving higher tax rates for those who make more money IS socialism.
honestly, everyone should pay the SAME percentage, if we were to be truly democratic.'
I agree with that HOWEVER name a single McCain-Bush policy that promotes a flat tax. All that they do is create larger tax loopholes for corporations who end up paying zero taxes
PA John said...
DKos/R2000:
Obama 50
McCain 42
DarÃo said...
Zogby:
Obama 50
McCain 42
*********
do they echoes ???
matador said...
"may I borrow a line from Real Joe ???
McCain surge ????
;)"
Don't you mean Powell surge? :D
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
i guarantee tha the VERY rich (i.e. those making over $1m) pay FAR less % tax (of all income) than the middle class or poor.
Poll: Obama gains in key swing counties
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14785.html
Obama avalanche ???
Rick said...
McCain surge ????
;)"
Don't you mean Powell surge? :D
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
******
whatever,just play it at loud !!!!
and I am dreaming your dream too !!!
I check this site everyday and it is the best site on the web for polling info by far. I can't say I'm surprised that the polls are tightening a bit but I am nearing panic! How sad it will be for this country as a whole if somehow we wake up on Nov 5th (not that I am going to sleep before I know the results) and we are in hell with 4 more years of repubs and an idiot like Palin a heartbeat away.
Obama landslide coming:
http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1600
has anyone heard why obama isnt leaving now for Hawaii?
ok.
back to work.
have a nice day to you all and good morning to Real Joe whenever He arrives.
Hey Real Joe:
Obama's boat is leaving the harbour ,would you mind to hurry up and just jump in ???
bye.
:)
Lori said...
"I check this site everyday and it is the best site on the web for polling info by far. I can't say I'm surprised that the polls are tightening a bit but I am nearing panic! How sad it will be for this country as a whole if somehow we wake up on Nov 5th (not that I am going to sleep before I know the results) and we are in hell with 4 more years of repubs and an idiot like Palin a heartbeat away."
Take a deep breath.
Vote Obama/Biden.
Now relax and understand that Obama is well aware of where things stand and will not let it slip away if his running of the campaign to this point is any indication in comparison to McCain's.
Forget a white christmas, I'm dreaming of a Blue Ohio!
Pennsylvania
Morning Call
Obama 52
Mccain 42
Obama +10
Lori - if you are concerned, go to the Obama Website and volunteer to help. It will help with the stress and hopefully some of your concern will eliminate any tendency towards complacency in the Obama/Biden camp.
Having said that, I’ve done absolutely nothing to help Obama – but hey! It’s not my country.
Best of luck on 11/4.
Tyson - while I disagree with the general premise that progressive tax rates are socialist (another argument for another time), you make a very good point about the Bush/McCain/Republican tax proposals: they do not advocate a flat tax. Instead, those plans advocate more trickle down economics; tax breaks for corporations and wealthy create wealth for the middle and lower class. So, in essence, we choose between socialist democracy or bourgeoisie democracy. I guess your choice depends upon which class you live in, eh?
Yes, i have volunteered most every weekend on voter registration. I have made calls, (also for the No on Prop 8 in CA) and I vacillate between euphoria that we are two weeks away from a dream come true and the terror of a bad nightmare. I am constantly confounded by how people are still convinced that Obama is a muslim, or terrorist, a baby killer? It feels like there are not enough hours in the day to talk these people down. I am now reduced to taking McCain/Palin lawn signs as a personal insult! No matter what, I will remember this election for the rest of my life! Thanks for talking me down guys! Have a great day.
A 'crowd' of 15, yes FIFTEEN, people greet McCain!
No, I'm not making this up: http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2008/10/20/mccain-land-columbia-regional-airport/
"Phillips, who also saw John F. Kennedy at the Joplin Airport in 1962, said she was upset at the small size of the crowd gathered to see McCain.
McCain campaign volunteer Jane Stuart agreed. In 2000, when then-Republican presidential nominee George W. Bush visited the airport there was a much larger crowd, Stuart said."
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA
Bill Clinton's stop in Kirkwood (MO):
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/politics/story/69972D8259073694862574E900113870?OpenDocument
Toz,
We might not agree on the flat tax portion but I'm glad you can see that Bush-McCain's tax policies are horribly weighted against anyone who receives a W-2.
And I'm ready to throttle any GOP bastard that brings up the 'socialist' term. Bush just signed into legislation the most 'socialist' economic policy since the Great Depression in order to bail out those who had the biggest advantage under Bush's own policies.
While Obama gives me hope for change I'm still very depressed that 41-44% of the US electorate are still too dense to get that the current GOP policies in reality are everything they say they hate.
Sen. Clinton to campaign for Obama in Omaha, NE
Link
Murtha Calls Some In Pa. 'Rednecks'
In regards ot taxes, I always ask people who do they think should pay off this debt. SOMEONE has to pay more taxes to pay off 10 trillion dollars. The choices are the people making a lot of money, the middle class, or the poor. Which one should be asked to pay off the debt? Granted, we all are going to have to pay more than we are now, but there is only so muhc thepoor and middle class can pay, so perhaps those who benefited most from running up our National credit card should be asked to pay a little more than their fair share.
As far as redistributing the wealth, what essentially Obama is proposing is we tak those making over $250,000 more to pay for the middle class tax break. Afterall, when you offer a tax cut, it HAS to be paid for somehow, and cutting the 18 billion in earmarks isn't going to come close to cutting it.
Or, we can continue to do what Reagan and Bush did and jsut massively cut taxes and don't even try to pay for them, which led to this 10 trillion dollar debt. They seem to think you can just keep running up a credit card and never have to worry about paying off the bill. It sounds like some people I know when it comes to their personal credit card, and then in the end, they jsut declare bankruptcy and start over. Well, the United States CAN NOT afford to declate bankruptctcy.
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