10.28.2008

Senate Projections, Baked Alaska Edition

Our projection models are designed to be fairly dynamic -- but you don't usually have the circumstance wherein a sitting senator gets convicted on seven felony counts (appeal pending!) eight days before an election. So, a little bit of creativity is going to be required.

Once we have post-conviction polls in Alaska -- Markos Moulitsas has already commissioned a Research 2000 poll in the state, and I'm sure that Ivan Moore and Rasmussen are also eager to get out into the field -- we will use those and simply drop any pre-conviction numbers. But none of those polls are back from the field yet. So we need some sort of band-aid in the meantime.

The closest recent parallel I can find to the Ted Stevens situation is that of former Ohio governor Bob Taft, who in August, 2005 was convicted on misdemeanor charges of failing to disclose gifts and golf trips paid for by lobbyists. Taft plead no contest and remained in office, but this didn't have a favorable effect on his approval ratings. He went from a 34-55 (-21) in a University of Cincinnati poll taken in April 2005 to a 26-65 (-39) in the same poll in August 2006, a net decline of 18 points.

Let's assume that Stevens will also suffer a decline in his net approval score of 18 points. Since he's at roughly 50/50 now, that would put him in the range of 40 percent approve, 60 percent disapprove. Our regression model uses approval ratings for incumbent senators as one of its inputs, and thinks a decline of this magnitude would cost a senator about 6 points in the polls ... actually, 5.8 points. So what we're going to do is apply a 5.8 point penalty to Stevens' numbers in Alaska. Since the race was a toss-up before, this puts him about 6 points behind overall, making Mark Begich an 87 percent favorite to take his seat. That seems conservative to me, frankly, given that even the guys at RedState are abandoning Stevens, but it's what we'll run with until there's some polling out.

Assuming that Stevens loses his race, how much does this help the Democrats' chances of picking up a 60-seat caucus? Well, it certianly helps some. But this is a race that the Democrats were probably going to win if they had a reasonably good night overall. There aren't tipping point senate races in the quite the same way there are tipping point states in the race for the White House; senate races move a bit more independently from one another. (Though not completely so; there have been plenty of years like 1980 and 2006 when a party overperformed its polls in essentially every high-profile congressional race). Nevertheless, it is Georgia, Mississippi and Kentucky -- not Alaska -- that represent the key races if Democrats want to hit 60 seats and 60 specifically.



...and in those races, the Democratic challengers remain within striking distance, but none have yet broken through. In fact, there's a good poll out for Mississippi incumbent Roger Wicker, who leads by 12 according to the Mobile Press Register. This was a weird little survey -- there were tons of undecideds, especially among black voters -- but nevertheless, we are about getting to the point where we'd want to see a nominal lead for Ronnie Musgrove in at least one public poll. Likewise for Bruce Lunsford in Kentucky and Jim Martin in Georgia (though close may count in Martin's case, who can earn a December run-off by holding Saxby Chambliss under 50 percent of the vote).

The Democrats, however, are making significant progress toward locking in a number in the 57-59 seat range. In Colorado, Mark Udall now rates as a 97 percent favorite thanks largely to a Rocky Mountain News poll that has him ahead by 13. That sounds like an aggressive forecast, until you remember that the Republicans have essentially pulled out of the race. John Sununu, meanwhile, is running out of time to catch up to Jeanne Shaheen in New Hampshire.

This means that there are five Democratic pickups -- Colorado, New Hampshire, Alaska, Virginia, and New Mexico -- that are now looking quite safe. Oregon may soon be joining them, as new polls by SurveyUSA and the Portland Tribune put Jeff Merkley ahead by 7 and 5 points, respectively. Since Oregon votes entirely by mail, this is not a good place to be trying to make up a late deficit, even if it's a relatively small one.

Kay Hagan, meanwhile, appears as though she may have plateaued in North Carolina. Unfortunaetly for Elizabeth Dole, Hagan has plateaued with a small lead still in hand. This has become an exceptionally expensive race -- Dole just lent her campaign an additional $3 million -- and as funds get re-directed from places like Alaska and Colorado, it may get even more so.

Minnesota remains too close to call, if tilting very slightly to Al Franken. The key factor here is the support for independent Dean Barkley, who is still polling at about 18 percent, but much of that support is likely to collapse by election day. From parsing the SurveyUSA cross-tabs, it appears that about 29 percent of Barkley's vote comes from Democrats, 20 percent from Republicans, and 51 percent from true independents. Also, roughly two-thirds of Barkley's voters are pro-choice. This means that the race is probably Franken's to lose, but with so much advertising on both sides, it can be hard to drive a message.

359 comments

[ tyler curtain ] said...

I would love to see the conviction have an impact on races across the country--just a general distaste for the Republican brand. Who knows if it will have that kind of staying power across regions. It can't help that Stevens and McCain are in the same age-cohort.

Evan said...

It's nice to see Alaska a non-red shade of color..

This is WONDERFUL news!!!! For Ted Stevens!!!

[ tyler curtain ] said...

PS

Is there a way to measure something like "brand strength" from these numbers? Voters must have a positive or negative over-all feeling about each of the parties, and local events like the Stevens corruption conviction might show up in a measurable way in attitudes towards Republicans as a brand.

This might even show up when, say, a former mayor of Detroit is jailed and folks start thinking about Democrats. Or a Louisiana member of the House finds cold hard cash in his refrigerator freezer.

GeckoGo.com said...

I don't think it would have much of an impact on McCain since he has never gotten along well with Stevens. The Republican brand as a whole did get tarnished a bit more, but it is already so damaged that I can't imagine it would have a significant impact.

Stevens on the other hand is done. With the news coming this close to the election, he's probably going to lose by 10+

Real Joe said...



WaPo-ABC Track: Early Birds for Obama

More than twelve million voters have already cast ballots in the presidential contest, according to one estimate, and new data from the Washington Post-ABC News tracking poll shows these voters breaking Democratic by a wide margin.

Among those who said they have already voted at an early voting location or sent in an absentee ballot, Barack Obama picked up 60 percent of the vote in the new poll to John McCain's 39 percent.

These voters make up 9 percent of "likely" voters in the track.

The senator from Illinois has a similar lead, 58 to 39 percent, among those who plan to vote early but have not yet. (Those who plan to vote on Election Day also go for Obama, but by a narrower, 51 to 45 percent.)

These early voting numbers are a near mirror-image of those from the last two elections: A paper using the National Annenberg Election Study reports that George W. Bush scored 62 percent of early voters in 2000 and 60 percent of them in 2004.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2008/10/wapo-abc_track_early_birds_for.html

Real Joe said...

good morning

chocka said...

Nate..i dont think ur permutations and combinations will actually show wats happening in Georgia...I strongly believe Jim and THAT ONE will take Georgia...i am just some thousands and thousands of KM away from Georgia in India... :)

But i can feel it...Georgia is turning Blue

Dave-london said...

Does anyone want to do a quick quiz?

The answer is 198

If anyone wants a guess at the question I'be back in an hour.

Badgerhair said...

Dave-london said...

Does anyone want to do a quick quiz?

The answer is 198

If anyone wants a guess at the question I'be back in an hour.


The number of concern troll posts which porridge gun notched up yesterday?

ralphhaven said...

Are we sure Dean Barkley's support will collapse? I seem to recall another MN election where the third-party candidate did surprisingly well...

Real Joe said...

if you believe :



Nepal soothsayers predict Obama win

They made predictions - some with success and some without - about the end of the country's royal dynasty and the end of the Maoist insurgency. Now Nepal's cosmopolitan astrologers are predicting a victory for Barack Obama.

According to Nepal's leading soothsayers, Republican candidate John McCain's younger opponent will win the Nov 4 polls, not due to the republican's running mate Sarah Palin but thanks to the democrat's stronger stars.

Santosh Vashisht, who is also the spokesman of the Nepal Astrologers' Council, says McCain, whose sun sign is Sagittarius, was born under the shadow of the evil Saturn, which would reduce his chances of winning.

Obama, on the other hand, enjoys the blessings of Taurus and Jupiter, which have boosted his prospects of victory.

Madhav Acharya, the religious adviser to deposed king Gyanendra and current head of the calendar committee, echoes Vashisht's views.

According to his calculations, Obama's campaign has been strengthened by the position of the moon, sun and mercury in his astrological chart, which signify a high this year.

SHERWICK said...

Where does Zogby note a very strong day for Obama on Monday?

Real Joe said...

12 million have already voted ??

Aunt Karen said...

I'm not so sure that Ted Stevens will lose. This is a man who, after all, won the primary after his indictment. And, evidently, there's a lot of questions about the validity of the prosecution, so his grounds for appeal are solid (this according to Pete Williams last night - I'm not an attorney, so I'm just going by that insight).

It's of interest to note that one reason Alaskans love him is he brings home the pork.

NoVa Commie said...

Real Joe,
ROFL


Good Morning.

Kashif said...

Guess ill repost this on a new thread

"First time poster having some thoughts.

In regards to the 'return on investment index' is it taken into account that states on or close to the east coast could dramatically shift the national outlook if they are called early by the national media.

If VA was taken by obama or mccain wins PA and its called early (or even to close to call in PA) would it dramatically shift what is happening in the west.

This may or may not be a strategy worth considering."

Real Joe said...



Palestinians making campaign calls for Obama

Residents of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip are calling random Americans and urging them to vote for Barack Obama in the upcoming US presidential election.

SHERWICK said...

actually, 12.6 million have already voted: http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html

jnorthrop said...

@Real Joe said...

" Palestinians making campaign calls for Obama

Residents of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip are calling random Americans and urging them to vote for Barack Obama in the upcoming US presidential election."

Someone should tell them that making those calls isn't going to help Obama in Florida...

Rick said...

Aunt Karen said...
"I'm not so sure that Ted Stevens will lose. This is a man who, after all, won the primary after his indictment. And, evidently, there's a lot of questions about the validity of the prosecution, so his grounds for appeal are solid (this according to Pete Williams last night - I'm not an attorney, so I'm just going by that insight).

It's of interest to note that one reason Alaskans love him is he brings home the pork."

While this is true, let's also keep in mind that Palin won the governorship in large part due to Alaskan anger over corrupt politicians catering to the oil industry. Steven's complicity in that very topic could well doom him. And given the potential link between those very same oil contractors and Sarah Palin, she may well face some linked trouble upon returning home.

PA John said...

According to his calculations, Obama's campaign has been strengthened by the position of the moon, sun and mercury in his astrological chart, which signify a high this year.

McCain SURGE!!!

markymark said...

My own guess is that Stevens might do better than we assume at the moment, though I would still expect any state with reasonably sensible voters would vote against Stevens. [Makes no snarky comment about Alaskans].

I still think 60 senate seats is a bit of a false goal really, especially if Obama is elected. Sure the fillibuster thing, but surely there are enough GOPers with a sense of Senate history and of decency to get out of the way of popular and reasonable legislation should the Dems get to 57/58 seats. (And I would still quietly get the Dem caucus to boot Lieberman out never mind what happens on November 4th)

newsinOH said...

My first reaction to using Bob Taft as a point of comparison was that it was questionable since Taft was so generally hated in the state for utter incompetence. However, it's a great example of cutting into the rabid portion of the population.

Taft's numbers were akin to Bush's now. When you look at Bush's approval ratings, you have to ask "who ARE these people who think he's doing a good job?!??!?" So, too, with Taft; so if a conviction even swayed some of the "still approve"s away from Taft, then it would likely have at least as strong of a response with Stevens whose support may include more than the most fanatical voters.

Rick said...

markymark said...
My own guess is that Stevens might do better than we assume at the moment, though I would still expect any state with reasonably sensible voters would vote against Stevens. [Makes no snarky comment about Alaskans].

"I still think 60 senate seats is a bit of a false goal really, especially if Obama is elected. Sure the fillibuster thing, but surely there are enough GOPers with a sense of Senate history and of decency to get out of the way of popular and reasonable legislation should the Dems get to 57/58 seats. (And I would still quietly get the Dem caucus to boot Lieberman out never mind what happens on November 4th)"

I wouldn't boot Lieberman. At least not until after having made him grovel and dance.

Rick said...

newsinOH said...
"My first reaction to using Bob Taft as a point of comparison was that it was questionable since Taft was so generally hated in the state for utter incompetence. However, it's a great example of cutting into the rabid portion of the population.

Taft's numbers were akin to Bush's now. When you look at Bush's approval ratings, you have to ask "who ARE these people who think he's doing a good job?!??!?" So, too, with Taft; so if a conviction even swayed some of the "still approve"s away from Taft, then it would likely have at least as strong of a response with Stevens whose support may include more than the most fanatical voters."

Let's leave Daft Taft in the past please.

joel said...

I wouldn`t bet against Stevens winning. He will then be forced to either be expelled or step down and then they would have a special election where Palin may just run for the seat.
I would hope the people of Alaska are better than that but who knows. Todays zogby has Obama under 50 at 49% but McCain still can`t break 45. Assuming that the undecided break 75% for McCain he still will fall short of 50% but I still think the popular vote will only be Obama by 2 or 3% but he should have a nice cusion in the electoral college.

Paul said...

It's worth noting that having 18% of the populace vote for independent candidates is not at all unprecedented. In the 2002 Gubernatorial election, the numbers broke down like this:

Republican - 44.4
Democratic - 36.5
Independence - 16.2
Green - 2.3

When October polling had the numbers at something very similar, like:

Republican - 36
Democrat - 32
Independent - 16
Other/Undecided - 16

This just means that none of the undecided vote broke for the third-party candidate, but those who were already committed in polling to vote that way, did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_gubernatorial_election,_2002

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200211/03_khoom_poll/poll.shtml

Paul said...

I didn't mention I was talking specifically about MN, but I think it was pretty clear from context...

GeckoGo.com said...

The thing about Stevens is that he was already running slightly behind Begich. I can't imagine anyone saying that they're more likely to vote for him because of his conviction.

In his best case scenario, he's further behind with a week to go, running against a strong opponent, and with no possibility of any positive news coming before the election.

Rick said...

joel said...
"I wouldn`t bet against Stevens winning. He will then be forced to either be expelled or step down and then they would have a special election where Palin may just run for the seat.
I would hope the people of Alaska are better than that but who knows. Todays zogby has Obama under 50 at 49% but McCain still can`t break 45. Assuming that the undecided break 75% for McCain he still will fall short of 50% but I still think the popular vote will only be Obama by 2 or 3% but he should have a nice cusion in the electoral college."

Please bear in mind the Zogby weighting models. Zogby uses the 2004 numbers which puts Dems and Reps roughly equal and that isn't born out by any other indicators this year. This tends to skew his results a few points towards the republican side. Also look above at the early vote tallies thus far.

Rick said...

Also of note, I'd actually love to see Palin in a democratically controlled senate. She is woefully uninformed and her aggressive personality would quickly wear on supposed friends and foes alike. And then there would be the tension should McCain privately feel that she was indeed the cause of his downfall or at least one of the major ones.

pakaal said...

@Rick and Markymark...

Y'all are still under the impression that Boltin' Joe Lieberman ISN'T going to jump the Democrat ship altogether at the first sign there might be a 60 seat Dem majority? At this point I wouldn't put any trust in him whatsoever. The GOP have been saying they're courting him - not to mention the guy's been stumping for McCain from Day One! My only question is, can we trade him for Hagel?

@Real Joe: Good afternoon from sunny South Africa, where I'm having a great vacation!

Rick said...

pakaal said...
"@Rick and Markymark...

Y'all are still under the impression that Boltin' Joe Lieberman ISN'T going to jump the Democrat ship altogether at the first sign there might be a 60 seat Dem majority? At this point I wouldn't put any trust in him whatsoever. The GOP have been saying they're courting him - not to mention the guy's been stumping for McCain from Day One! My only question is, can we trade him for Hagel?

@Real Joe: Good afternoon from sunny South Africa, where I'm having a great vacation!"

Lieberman has already begun his backpedaling. He'll most likely try to stick with where he feels he's safest which would be trying to return to the Dem fold rather than letting himself be openly labeled Republican when that party is viewed so poorly.

Charles Crook said...

Does the model allow for an impact from Stevens on the AK House race?

Aunt Karen said...

Boltin' Joe isn't going anywhere. Harry Reid wants him to stay. And, Joe chairs a committee (these guys all have huge egos), he isn't going to want to throw that away. Harry Reid won't take it away, either.

Brian said...

@ Rick
Oh God No!
Can you imagine flipping the channels only to see Palin rambling on for HOURS in one of her filibusters if the Dem's don't get 60 seats???

Aunt Karen said...

@charles crook

Well, Don Young is under an ethics investigation himself, so it probably doesn't have much impact.

Rick said...

Aunt Karen said...
"Boltin' Joe isn't going anywhere. Harry Reid wants him to stay. And, Joe chairs a committee (these guys all have huge egos), he isn't going to want to throw that away. Harry Reid won't take it away, either."

But then Reid might not remain in power either once all is said and done any more than Pelosi.

As for Lieberman and the 60 seat majority, just because he might be labeled a dem doesn't guarantee he'd actually vote to break filibusters with the party all the time. But as others have said, as long as they are close to the 60 seats, they can likely rope in a republican or two when needed. Especially on high profile issues that show lots of public support

rdweber said...

It took Taft 17 months to lose those 16 points of support. While I'm sure 7 felony counts will be more damning than 1 misdemeanor I'm not sure it's all that fair (or mathematically sound) to assume that Stevens will lose the same amount of support in 8 days...

Rick said...

Brian said...
"@ Rick
Oh God No!
Can you imagine flipping the channels only to see Palin rambling on for HOURS in one of her filibusters if the Dem's don't get 60 seats???"

No only can I imagine it, I'll enjoy watching McCain join in the voting to SHUT HER UP! ;) Heck, you might even see a vote that ended up 99 in favor of ending her filibusters.

Aunt Karen said...

Why punish Lieberman, though? There's no point in it except revenge. It's a sure thing he's had an unpleasant late summer/early autumn. I just don't understand this need to get back at him. It seems small and spiteful, and not much else.

Rick said...

rdweber said...
"It took Taft 17 months to lose those 16 points of support. While I'm sure 7 felony counts will be more damning than 1 misdemeanor I'm not sure it's all that fair (or mathematically sound) to assume that Stevens will lose the same amount of support in 8 days..."

Which would be why this is just a temporary measure until such time as they complete post-trial polling. Nate needed some measure stick to use in the mean time

Charles Crook said...

"
Well, Don Young is under an ethics investigation himself, so it probably doesn't have much impact."

That's what I was getting at. While Young hasn't been tried yet, the same company, Veco, is involved with both Stevens and Young.

So the Stevens verdict is also a Veco verdict

Charles Crook said...

"Can you imagine flipping the channels only to see Palin rambling on for HOURS"

Palin said she "expects Stevens to do the right thing for Alaska...". Does that means she expects him to withdraw / resign, or just to behave himself from now on?

I think she's hoping he withdraws so she can have a word-of-mouth write-in campaign.


If Stevens is somehow elected, it takes a 2/3 Senate vote to toss him out, not just a simple majority. He said he would be appealing his verdicts, so such a vote might be delayed until his appeals finish.

MysticLaker said...

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=8247ab3a-7593-421d-8100-61e6e00ebc0b

O 49
M 45

Ohio....

already voted 56-39

Alex S. said...

I wasn´t really sure if Begich would have won the Senate Race if Sen. Stevens had been acquitted. The Senator would have enjoyed coattails by Gov. Palin, and he would have had his name cleared from suspicion.
Now, the situation has changed from 2-out-of-4, to 1-out-of-3 for the Democrats (I believe that Al Franken will win). While the races in Kentucky, Georgia and Mississippi have never shown the Democratic candidate ahead, they had them within margin of error, especially in Georgia. And that´s probably within the possible coattail-effect-range. Unfortunately, I don´t think that Mr. Lunsford and Mr. Musgrove will benefit from Obama coattails - but Georgia will be different. All these Chambliss +2 polls make me believe that a high turnout for Obama, and low enthusiasm on the Republican side will give Georgia to the Democrats.
Btw, isn´t a 60th seat the best that could happen to Sen. Lieberman? If the Democrats got fewer or more seats, he wouldn´t make a difference - but as the 60th senator he could wield the most power.

markymark said...

Yhe only reason I would boot Lieberman out of the caucusis simply that it stops he withdrawing from the caucus either 1 early on to start President Obama's term in a bad way
or
2 when this are going badly and he can time an exit for the most political damage it might cause.

The risk would be that it pushes his closer to the Republican caucus, and to an extent I can see the point of keeping Lieberman close (better to have him inside the tent p*ss*ng out!) and if Obama was doing well as President there is probably some newsworthy coverage of Lieberman praising the guy he didn't endorse, BUT I personally would do the dramatic thing and boot him out. (I would have done it the day he turned up at the RNC, but then again maybe my political instincts aren't always as good as the pros!)

Real Joe said...

mysticlaker said...
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=8247ab3a-7593-421d-8100-61e6e00ebc0b

O 49
M 45

Ohio....

already voted 56-39



poll from yesterday ?

Rick said...

markymark said...
"Yhe only reason I would boot Lieberman out of the caucusis simply that it stops he withdrawing from the caucus either 1 early on to start President Obama's term in a bad way
or
2 when this are going badly and he can time an exit for the most political damage it might cause.

The risk would be that it pushes his closer to the Republican caucus, and to an extent I can see the point of keeping Lieberman close (better to have him inside the tent p*ss*ng out!) and if Obama was doing well as President there is probably some newsworthy coverage of Lieberman praising the guy he didn't endorse, BUT I personally would do the dramatic thing and boot him out. (I would have done it the day he turned up at the RNC, but then again maybe my political instincts aren't always as good as the pros!)"

I'd kick him out because he spent the year claiming to be an Independant and "former" Democrat. On top of that, he clearly cannot be trusted and has made his intents known. Besides, you have more leverage on him if you can push him towards the republicans and their generally bad name than if you keep him under your own umbrella I feel.

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

I think that is today's R. Joe

Real Joe said...



University of New Hampshire poll

Obama 55

McCain 39

The poll had two percent preferring another candidate and five percent undecided.

U.S. Senate race, incumbent Republican John Sununu trails Democrat Jeanne Shaheen by 11 percentage points. Sununu beat Shaheen in 2002 for the Senate seat.

Link

Real Joe said...

good news for Obama from NH

slicknickshady said...

I don't know if this was covered in another thread but there were three NBC-Mason Dixon polls put out this morning for New Hampshire, North Carolina, and Montana.

Omamu up 11 in New Hampshire (Did not see the numbers)

North Carolina

Obama - 47
Mccain - 47

Montana

Mccain 48
Obama 44

Jon said...

two words: filibuster striptease

Jay said...

[i] Why punish Lieberman, though? There's no point in it except revenge. It's a sure thing he's had an unpleasant late summer/early autumn. I just don't understand this need to get back at him. It seems small and spiteful, and not much else. [/i]

It's not punishment, and it's not mean and spiteful.

Lieberman has a radical, neo-conservative foreign policy worldview.

He's a warmonger and his views in this regard don't represent the Democratic Party. He certainly shouldn't chair Homeland Security.

Even his Republican predecessor (Susan Collins - ME) was more reasonable than him in this area.


Lieberman will be less reliable than lots of other moderates, regardless of what party he decides to be. Snowe (ME), Collins (ME), Specter (PA), and some of the other moderate republicans will be enough to break filibuster on important issues.

MysticLaker said...

@real joe...brand spanking new.

HonoreDB said...

Barack Obama probably needs to be vindictive against Lieberman, to consolidate his power over his party. If necessary, he can appoint a moderate Republican Senator from a blue state to his cabinet, giving the Dem Senate leadership an extra senator in exchange for them kicking Lieberman out of their caucuses and committees. And Lieberman is still representing the people of CT, he can't start voting like a Republican on domestic issues, even if he starts caucusing with them.

Charles Crook said...

It takes a caucus vote - by the incoming Dem Senators - to replace Lieberman as chair. He previously has chosen to vote with the Dems on most issues.

Sure committee chairs are settled before the new Congress is seated.
But is Lieberman the first order of business of the new Senate?

Or how about the economy or a war or ...?

Dave-london said...

oh dear only one attempt. :)

198 is the number of days since RCP [With all its faults] showed a lead for JM in PA.

13/4 which is of course a theoretical match up back then.

And I dont see much point in kicking Joe out even if you get to 60 without him. BO will be thinking about his re-election strategy on 6/11 and hands across the water / big tent might well go down well with moderates and help him live in GOPs territory on National Security.

Antmatic said...

Every day, another 200,000 or so people vote in North Carolina and every day, the black % of voters and the Dem % of voters remains at their current, high levels. If by Friday, 2,000,000 voters have voted in North Carolina and blacks make up 25% of the sample and Dems are close to 50%, then the pollsters will have to recalibrate.

Meweb said...

Is this our October Surprise?

markymark said...

Is there anyway of moving Lieberman to a more Lieberman view friendly chairmanship? Could Reid move him sideways?

Or maybe the easiest thing to do is to give him a cabinet spot? Obama has often talked about being inclusive with his cabinet appointments? Give him a significant non national security post, would he accept? Could the GOP Governor of CT be persuaded to pick at least a moderate GOPer to fill the seat? (Does CT just appoint senators to fill the seat for the whole of the term or would some sort of run off be needed?)

markymark said...

dave-london

Actually I think this is one area where Obama is not like your run of the mill politicians, I don't think re-election will be uppermnost in his mind. I think governing will be, and how he best governs. (Also its a decision for the Democratic caucus, and Harry reid, and whilst I am sure they would listen to President/elect Obama, I think it might be an area were Harry Reid sees a chance to put a little distance between the Democratic Caucus and Obama.

matador said...

Rick said...
"...And given the potential link between those very same oil contractors and Sarah Palin, she may well face some linked trouble upon returning home."

October 28, 2008 6:34 AM

Hope this will be a good news for:
wolves moose and bears...and John McCain !!!

p.s.
can someone explain me the meaning of that damn "word verification" before posting ??

Jay said...

Lieberman won't get a cabinet spot. Obama wants people he can trust in Secretary positions. He also won't be vindictive against him; he knows how the Senate works, and he'll let Reid handle Joe fairly quietly.

The best scenario is to give him a domestic chair. Joe will likely throw a hissy fit, but he's a solid politician and knows it's coming. He's been campaigning for Republican Senators at this point (like Norm Coleman) so he really doesn't expect much.

DA English said...

Dave london,

198 is the number of Republicans that will be in the US House in the next session.

jnorthrop said...

"can someone explain me the meaning of that damn "word verification" before posting ??"

It helps prevent people from spamming the board.

Real Joe said...



Obama Returning Thursday To Missouri

don't panic said...

Oh God No!
Can you imagine flipping the channels only to see Palin rambling on for HOURS in one of her filibusters if the Dem's don't get 60 seats???

not really, but i do see her unwittingly filibuster her own proposition...

Charles Crook said...

The problem I have of taking actions to punish Lieberman, or of taking political maneuvers to get him out of the way is that it represents politics as usual.

I don't think an Obama administration - elected on the idea of change - wants political payback as a headline.

Lieberman is up for re-election in 2 years. His state has seen him lose a Dem primary and then run as an independent, and then back a Republican ticket. So how does he present himself to CT?

He has the potential to face both Dem and Rep candidates for his Senate seat, both of which could be funded by their committees.

But he should not be offered any Cabinet position.

Charles Crook said...

&qout;"can someone explain me the meaning of that damn "word verification" before posting ??"

It helps prevent people from spamming the board."

An automatic script can be written to submit posts. Adding the word verification ensures that a person is submitting the post, not a spambot.

matador said...

nope.
According whit this:

http://electoral-vote.com/

much,much,beaucoup,muchos,molti,

less.

oh..btw this guy from the site linked has an interesting poll for visitors,you may want to take it.

bye.

Real Joe said...

dems don't need 60

you can get a few moderate republicans

matador said...

DA English said...
Dave london,

198 is the number of Republicans that will be in the US House in the next session.

October 28, 2008 7:39 AM

*********
Oh,I am not crazy guys,
just a little unwatchful:
My previous post was referred to this cooment.
sorry.
:)

stranded in al said...

Re the Mobile Press-Register poll showing Wicker with a comfortable lead in MS - The Mobile paper leans very hard to the right. Here is an excerpt from their recent endorsement of McCain: "We’re not entirely comfortable with Sen. McCain’s political inclinations, which tend toward bipartisan accommodation when principled partisanship might serve the country better.”

matador said...

Real Joe said...
dems don't need 60

you can get a few moderate republicans

October 28, 2008 7:49 AM

********

don't need 60 ???

damn.

:)

markymark said...

Charles Crook,

Lieberman was reelected in 2006 so has 4 years left on his current term.

I think there is value in putting Lieberman in the cabinet, I think it saves any feeling of bitterness if you want to move him out of the security chairmanship, demonstrates that Obama doesn't hold grudges, and demonstrates a level of bi-partisanship (or at least post partisanship). It might actually be the smartest move Obama could make. If he is worried about the blogosphere's reaction, he can through them some red meat in another position.

Its just a thought, and I understand the drawbacks, but I think it would be a first step to end the partisanship of the election, and as such, if done right, might just be a highly intelligent move.

RWD said...

Getting back to the weather thread, I can't believe that on a political board, nobody is mentioning weather underground...www.wunderground.com.

As a hard core weather geek I can tell you, it's the best weather site out there, hands down. Weather.com is probably the worst.

matador said...

Charles Crook said...

An automatic script can be written to submit posts. Adding the word verification ensures that a person is submitting the post, not a spambot.

October 28, 2008 7:45 AM

**************

now it's clear.
good idea.
thank you for telling me.
:)

SHERWICK said...

Only put people you can trust inside your cabinet (even though the saying goes 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer')

jakam said...

12 million have already voted ??

By next Monday that number could exceed 50 million.

markymark said...

Incidentally the only thing that worries me about relying on 'moderate' Republicans, is exactly how many of those are going to be left in the US senate. (Given many didn't stand for reelection (Domenici, Warner) one or two might go into the Obama administration (Hagel?) and most who are left are getting fairly old in the tooth.

Charles Crook said...

"Lieberman was reelected in 2006 so has 4 years left on his current term. "

Yup. Wishful thinking on my part.

fred said...

early ras numbers?

markymark said...

sherwick,

Whilst not entirely disagreeing, I also think there is some political advantage to having an inclusive administration. (Lincoln for instance really did have a 'team of rivals', FDR brought Republicans in (Harold Ickes, the orginal one, was a Republican), JFK, Clinton both appointed GOPers as Defense Secretary (MacNamara and Cohen).

I don't know Obama's relationship with Lieberman, on a personal level, but I think there is value in placing him in the administration.

Derek said...

I think the Congress, in its first 100 days should pass legislation putting Fox News on a terrorist watch list. I hates them!!!!!

Also, CT has a republican governor... so doesn't that mean he could put a republican in place of Liberman?

Antmatic said...

Rasmussen
O-51
M-46

No Change

Matt said...

Louisiana poll...

M: 50.6
O: 38.3

Louisiana

Landrieu trouncing Kennedy.

Charles Crook said...

"We’re not entirely comfortable with Sen. McCain’s political inclinations, which tend toward bipartisan accommodation when principled partisanship might serve the country better.”

Not quite the same as "loyal opposition".

Partisan:

1: a firm adherent to a party, faction, cause, or person ; especially : one exhibiting blind, prejudiced, and unreasoning allegiance

2 a: a member of a body of detached light troops making forays and harassing an enemy
2 b: a member of a guerrilla band operating within enemy lines

LAT said...

thanks for all the links Real Joe.
Anyone know what polls are coming out today--state or national?

Antmatic said...

No change in Ras and the improving daily sample in DK seem to imply Obama did better on Monday than he did on Sunday night.

fred said...

What was ras yesterday? sorry...

I think there is value to leaving Lieberman dead on the side of the road after we throw him under the bus.

kittles93 said...

Hopefully ras numbers help porridge return from the cliff. He swore Ras would shift again today. Perhaps Obama had a strong Monday polling.

The key here is Obama 50+ in almost all daily trackers.

MysticLaker said...

@ant.

Absolutely. I would not be surprised in O had a big night last night. I think we will see an upward trend push through till the end of the week.

Aunt Karen said...

@derek

I'm not sure how it works in CT. In some states, if the governor appoints, they are obligated to appoint someone from the same party as the person who vacated the seat.

But in some states, I think there's an automatic election.

Keep in mind, it wouldn't be unheard of to appoint Mrs. Lieberman.

fred said...

Obama should get a bounce from the infomercial. The daily trackers are almost irrelevant at this point - we only need polls in PA, CO, VA. If Obama wins those he wins.

markymark said...

derek,

Yep, my reasoning there is that 1 as far as I know Jodi Rell is a relative moderate, and 2 That way at least you know you have a GOPer there for 4 years, instead of guessing what might happen.)

don't panic said...

i think lieberman will resign voluntarily from the committee, and gradually realign with the dems,

Derek said...

I think that we should select a WY senator because that is one of the only ways we will get a democrat in that state... maybe with the incumbent bias we can keep that one for a while...

TN NC and OK might be some other fun possible options... although I think Henry could beat Coburn in 2010

donelson said...

Nate said:
"...Mississippi incumbent Roger Wicker, who leads by 12 according to the Mobile Press Register. This was a weird little survey -- there were tons of undecideds,..."


COULD IT BE that the pollsters FAILED to mention party affiliation when asking their questions?

Many voters in the rural south vote strictly by party affiliation. If this was not mentioned, you'd get a huge number of undecideds.

PA John said...

Ant,

What states does Rasmussen have coming out today?

As always, thanks for the updates.

Dave-london said...

Has anyone seen this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/28/neo-nazis-barack-obama-assassination-plot

A hugely incompetent attempt it seems.

grandpa john said...

What I want to see, the day after his inauguration, Obama walks into DOJ with a huge broom and starts sweeping until all the crud and crap is out the door

War Hussein Obama said...

the mccain ticket will sink this week. Yesterdays news was full of palin-mccain infighting.

Antmatic said...

PA John, they didn't say what states Rasmussen would have out.

I would love to see Rasmussen revisit PA.

Herunar said...

Obama has plenty of volunteers in Georgia and a lot of enthusiasm from blacks in states like Mississippi, and on the other hand Alaskans have been quite enthusiastic about Palin. If polls are underestimating the enthusiasm factor, the Dems may underperform in Alaska and overperform in Southern states. So I think there's a chance that the Alaska senate race will be closer than, say, Georgia, on Nov 4.

Antmatic said...

Hotline
O-50
M-42

No Change

We should be getting non-tracker national polls out today too. Pew?

Matt said...

Lieberman is definitely backpedaling, outside of foreign policy (and maybe censorship) he doesn't have an ideological friend in the GOP. He'll stay an independent, and if the Dems get 57-58 seats, they can probably get Lieberman, Olympia Snow, or Arlen Specter to break a filibuster on any legislation with some legs under it.

Trackers: the R2000 internals show that Monday (+6) was a better day than Sunday (+5) and that a good Friday night fell off (+11), so I'm not worrying that BHO is in a freefall. It is interesting though that McCain seems to do better on Sundays-- wouldn't more of his base be at church that day and less likely to pick up the phone? Although we shouldn't forget that African-Americans have the highest rate of church attendance, so the effect could be similar for Obama. I don't know if its true, but did someone say that Wednesday is usually a poor day for Obama? Its again interesting to me because a lot of evangelical churches have Wednesday night activities that might cause them to be undercounted that evening.

Derek said...

Los Angeles Times on the selection of Lieberman as VP in 2000

In choosing the senator, Gore ignored a request from Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota to avoid picking a lawmaker from a state with a Republican governor. If Lieberman resigns his Senate seat, GOP Gov. John Rowland would appoint a successor–giving Republicans an additional vote.

So picking Lieberman is a bad idea unless we think that the dems could take the seat in 2010 in a special election...

MysticLaker said...

hotline no change

50-42

jnorthrop said...

I'm digging the steady numbers from the trackers...

PA John said...

hotline no change

50-42


Wow Hotline has been stable for a 5 day stretch.

Aunt Karen said...

Thanks, derek. I do know it's different in different states. So, yes, it's likely there would be a Republican appointed.

prairiecomm said...

good morning!

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

I don't see what good rewarding Joe Lieberman in anyway makes sense. Here you have a man who was nominated to be Vice President for the democartic party totally turning his back on the party. Not only did he decide to run as an independent, he is actively supporting the nominee of the Republican party. The man should be stripped of his chaimanship and allowed to drift in the Senate without any power. I would much rather have a loyal Republican as part of my my cabinet than a disloyal Democrat---at least with the Republican, I'll know where he stands.

prairiecomm said...

Palestinians making campaign calls for Obama

sounds like another attempted smear - it sounds rather unlikely to me

piliess !

p smith said...

With Obama's lead holding steady in Rasmussen and Hotline and tightening only slightly in Zogby and R2K, we seem to have settled right back to where most sensible pundits see the race i.e. an Obama lead of 5-6 points. Plenty good enough.

The state polls are a good deal better than that however and now that McCain has no chance in any Kerry state (double digit deficits in PA, MN, MI, WI, NH and OR) and with Obama holding a double digit lead in NM and IA, he only needs one of VA, CO, NV, OH, FL, MO, NC or IN (in order of likelihood). McCain is f*cked.

My feel is that McCain's tightening which was based entirely on a good day on Sunday will reverse itself out by Thursday's trackers but you know what? It doesn't matter.

The media narrative has now become desperation and internecine infighting within GOP circles and no independent minded voter is going to vote for that rabble.

Aunt Karen said...

Well, he ran as an Independent because he lost the Democratic Primary. So, it's not like he defected (at that stage of the game, anyway).

prairiecomm said...

re palin distancing herself from ted stevens

.... if you go back in her biography ... it was ted stevens who, if I recall correctly, guided her toward the governorship ...

seems rather sudau

LAT said...

yes is there a PEW poll coming out today? anything else? NBC? ABC? CBS?

PP has a poll for georgia out in the field but that won't come out for a few days.

Derek said...

Reffering back to the 60 seat majority and where we could get them if we don't get them elected... I say we take advantage of our blue govs in red states... we won't have this oportunity forever and if we can build the democratic party in red states then we can make a lasting impact... the republican party is in shambles and if we can cripple them more then that would be great IMO... maybe when they reconstitute they will get back to being fiscally conservative and socially moderate... kick that conervative wing to the curb and then we can have an "era of good feeling" for the 21st century...

Aunt Karen said...

btw, totally off topic, but I did read yesterday that the 30 minute program will also air on Univision, highest rated Spanish language network.

grandpa john said...

Speaking of VP's and Lieberman, what the hell ever possessed Gore to select Lying Joe in the first place, that has to rank up there as one of the worst ever choices, not in the Palin class but still not good and certainly didnot help the ticket.
I also agree with Joe from Jersey, the backstabbing asshole deserves NO reward but contempt and trivialization

Foregone Conclusion said...

If Ted Stevens is elected, Alaska will have officially jumped the shark.

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

Aunt Karen--there are a lot of people who lose in Democratic primaries---what they don't do is run as an independent making it more likely for the Republican to win. Although the Republican did not win in CT, what he did was disloyal to the party--a party that had shown him loyalty by nominating him as Vice President.

LAT said...

I think Joe should be 'rewarded' with an Ambassadorship to an irrelevant country with very very sparse modern conveniences. Suggestions?

Derek said...

Here's the deal about 60 votes... Lieberman will be great on social issues... just not the Iraq war... but what we lose from Lieberman on Iraq we gain with Chuck Hagel. Plus, with an Obama mandate republicans up for 2010 in blue states like Iowa, PA, etc. will probably be more likely to go along with the democrats. So I'm not too worried about it. We just need to get as many dems as possible and then play politics to get the votes...

Foregone Conclusion said...

"Speaking of VP's and Lieberman, what the hell ever possessed Gore to select Lying Joe in the first place?"

Florida. And it nearly worked.

(Although it seems that Obama-Biden, a ticket consisting of a black man and a white Catholic, is likely. What you are when is more important it seems than who you are.

jakam said...

It takes a caucus vote - by the incoming Dem Senators - to replace Lieberman as chair. He previously has chosen to vote with the Dems on most issues.

Sure committee chairs are settled before the new Congress is seated.
But is Lieberman the first order of business of the new Senate?

Or how about the economy or a war or ...?


They can deal with more than one thing at once. McCain already tried that argument at the time of the first debate.

Foregone Conclusion said...

"I think Joe should be 'rewarded' with an Ambassadorship to an irrelevant country with very very sparse modern conveniences. Suggestions?"

Our ambassador to Iraq - post withdrawal.

Seriously, though, the poor man's in a pathetic state. No need to beat him while he's down.

Aunt Karen said...

Chuck Hagel will be gone in two years (or less, he's not an unlikely cabinet pick).

And again, removing Lieberman from the Senate, as derek correctly pointed out almost certainly guarantees a Republican in his seat.

Derek said...

Joe really believes Iraq is important... I don't begrudge him for running for public office. Although I don't like the "Country First" mantra I think it applies to Joe... even if he is misguided his heart is in the right place

With that said, he's been a dick on the campaign trail and has not acted with grace... that is when he stabbed his party in the back IMO... when he talked shit about Obama and then was talking about reaching across to the other side... what a joke

fred said...

Throw Joe under the bus. No cahirmanship, and he sits on the Committee for Better Pet Care. His actions must not only not be rewarded, they must be punished.

CameronsCrusaders said...

@Ant-


Rasmussen releasing Penn. poll today....as you requested.

Herunar said...

To be honest, I have some doubts as to whether Obama will be able to win re-election. He's a serious person, and he wants to govern well and probably reach out to the Palestinians, Iranians, Russians and Cubans, and this will probably anger a lot of the uneducated Americans. He's not like Clinton, who only governed in the first time so he could run for election, and in the second term so her wife could run for president. Not to mention the huge mess Bush created will unlikely be solved in a few years.

CameronsCrusaders said...

herunar- the ultimate concern troll. worried about re-election one week before election

Derek said...

Oh boy... Maverick McCain calling for Stephens to step down... I bet that would have worked had he not been appealing to his base for the past 2 years...

LAT said...

anyone want to bet that Rass has Obama much closer than all the other polls? I say he puts it at 6 or 7. He too had it much closer the last time he polled Obama at 8 on a day that others gave Obama a double digit lead.

LAT said...

the thing is that if McCain appeals for stevens to step down and he does not than McCain looks very weak no? And stevens hates McCain so I am pretty sure he will not listen to him.

fred said...

Ras today:

Later today, new polling data will be released for Arkansas, Mississippi, Nevada, and Pennsylvania

lilnev said...

Begich went from 60 to 90 on Intrade yesterday. Though it's not a deep and liquid market.

In Georgia, I think Martin wants to avoid a runoff. It would be much harder to re-generate the enthusiasm and huge Dem turnout that he needs. I still like his chances of winning it outright next week. I think Dems will over-perform in states that have been heavily organized.

CameronsCrusaders said...

Rasmussen had Penn. at 54-41 on October 7th the last time it was polled.

I am predicting it at 52-43 this time around.

Derek said...

I'm not sure a runoff is horrible... the dems have more money and could put a ton of money in it and Bill and Hillary could campaign with Martin everyday... who would the republicans send there?

FreeThinker said...

Ted Steven's crimes seem to pale next to the gross criminal neglect that congress has engaged in over the last eight years, giving the rubber stamp to nearly everything that the Bush Administration has requested. They have spent hundreds of billions beyond revenues and have permitted trillions in war related expenses down the road with little or no objection. Besides, even if Stevens loses his appeal, Bush will pardon him before he exits; his last Bush-Whack.

zygoide!!

Sonia said...

This is so OT, but what will it take to turn Arizona into a swing!? McCain seems to be losing ground there by the day, and Obama is tied in Maricopa, the deep red county. I MUST KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.

newsinOH said...

I really dislike the whole "throw Joe under the bus for being disloyal" argument. That's heading down the Rove road and we know where that goes--straight to an imploding bunker.

Rather, the issue is what kind of judgment does Lieberman show? Hagel certainly didn't agree with McCain yet he left himself plenty of room to endorse or not. Joe went all in very early, and must be painted with the same brush as all who thought Palin was a disaster but ignored it, even going so far as predicting/guaranteeing that McCain would live to be 85. Joe has stood by while McCain's campaign deteriorated into a slimefest.

Those decisions call into question whether his role has been of representing his own "rogue" ideas or representing his electorate--with answers to come on 11/4.

Yes, he should be marginalized, not out of "disloyalty" but out of dangerous irrelevance to the direction our country wants to go.

Derek said...

Surely Bush wouldn't pardon Stevens... that would be the cherry on top of his cronyistic, inept presidency...

Dear Bush, please please please don't be that ignorent... PLEASE

With that said... it would barely surprise me if he did.

Matt said...

Just read a rumor on Pollster that McCain is canceling his PA events today due to weather (yeah right). Any truth to this?

PA John said...

McCain campaign postpones 1:15 pm McCain-Palin rally in Quakertown PA due to poor weather.

PA John said...

Just read a rumor on Pollster that McCain is canceling his PA events today due to weather (yeah right). Any truth to this?

True. the weather is nasty here today, and it was an outdoor event.

SHERWICK said...

lol even the Gods are against poor McCain! Where is Obama today? In sunny Florida??!

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA

jnorthrop said...

@PA John said...

McCain campaign postpones 1:15 pm McCain-Palin rally in Quakertown PA due to poor weather.

I guess when it rains it pours... *ugh*

Nothing is going right for this campaign

Matt said...

He couldn't find an indoor location? Given the size of crowds McCain has been drawing, a high school gymnasium would have sufficed?

newsinOH said...

He couldn't find an indoor location? Given the size of crowds McCain has been drawing, a high school gymnasium would have sufficed?


Palin's with him so they might need a large high school auditorium . . .

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

A few comments about Senate numbers:

60 people with D by their name is not the same thing as 60 people willing to vote with Obama on every issue. Dems in Montana and Indiana aren't going to vote in lockstep with Dems from NY and California. Just look at the bailout voting in both chambers to see what I'm talking about.

LBJ was the last president with a real deal making relationship with the Senate. The focus, as always, was not on his own party but getting some cover from the other party to make things work better. LBJ openly traded votes, but Obama would have to be a little more nuanced. Biden should help with that, given his relationships. Still, 60 in a straight vote is nowhere near as sellable as 50 Dems and 10 Republicans, or even 55-5.

Lieberman is a liberal on many things Obama will want his vote on. No need to kick his teeth in - or reward him - from Obama's perspective. Reid is a different story.

Finally, Obama is a fan of Lincoln, especially Doris Kearns Goodwin's work Team of Rivals. I suggest he will at least try to pass some measures early on that will make conservatives happy and want to work with him, and offer at least 2 prominent Cabinet slots to NoBama types (whether Hillary, McCain or even Palin loyalists is not as important as making the effort). He's already started by Podesta (a Hillary bud) as his transition chief (typically a shortlister for chief of staff) and adding so many Hillary staffers. Expect it to embrace people like Huckabee (Faith based initiatives, anyone?), Romney (a seat on the Econ Advisors Board), or even McCain (he has 0 chance of being a GOP leader, but is someone who can get the few remaining GOP moderates to play along).

Matt said...

How many racists can you fit into a high school gymnasium? :-)

fred said...

newsfromOH said:

"I really dislike the whole "throw Joe under the bus for being disloyal" argument. That's heading down the Rove road and we know where that goes--straight to an imploding bunker."

That is absolutely wrong. Joe was disloyal and did do much more to damage the party than anyone in the modern history of any party. He was a dem VP candidate for God's sake! He must be thrown under the bus. If he behaves, revisit that decision in two years, but he MUST prove himself first.

Leave Joe behind - Olympia Snowe is smarter and more moderate anyway...

Chi said...

MSNBC Breaking News: McCain calls for Sen. Ted Stevens to step down following his conviction.

Hmm...did McCain convene with Palin on that one? Last time I checked, she wanted Stevens on.

Derek said...

So I must correct my earlier comment that Obama should name a republican from a red state to his executive branch... NC may not be viable due to a loss of the gov's house but may be viable in MO... however, I think we could probably take MO on our own... TN would be great because then the gov could put Harold Ford Jr. in.... that would be awesome

PA John said...

McCain/Palin are still doing there indoor stops in PA. They are in Hershey now.

From PennLive.com live blogging:

The arena could hold as many as 8,500 in this configuration, but there are plenty of empty seats in the upper levels and suites. The lower levels are mostly full but there are empty seats to be found.

fred said...

Palin had a Stevens ad on her wensite up to and including the first day she was picked.

FreeThinker said...

Joe Lieberman is playing the role of lobbyist for the Israeli defense establishment. This role is not compatible with representing the interests of the US in any responsible position. If he wants to play the role he should get out of the Senate and register as a lobbyist of a foreign government.

tweabler!!

War Hussein Obama said...

just a random thought on undecideds.

We will be having some unprecidented voter turnout this year, thats a given.

Lines will be LONG to vote in the battlegrounds.

Do you guys think it would be likely that voters who arent committed at this point will be enthusiastic enough to stand in line for an hour or more to cast a ballot? I dont.

I keep hearing people on the right banking on undecideds breaking towards McCain at the last minute. I'm banking on the majority of them not even caring enough to stand in line.

Derek said...

I agree that 60 people with a D by their name isn't the same as 60 people in lock step with Obama but if they have a D beside their name they are closer to Obama than a guy with an R by his name

joel said...

McCain is really an idiot. By calling for Stevens to step down he just draws more attention to another crooked republican.
The polls look pretty stable, I wouldn`t expect much movement except maybe a little bit towards Obama. Rasmussen says Obama is running about 8 points better than Kerry was at this time and kerry lost by 2.5 % so a 5-6 % popular vote win seems about right.

Sarah Clark said...

re: Lieberman--He needs to be disciplined, not punished--there's been too much of the latter and not enough of the former from the republicans, and a nuanced, moderate response will be a great signal they're not going to govern like the last guys. I like the irrelevant ambassadorship, and I think he'll probably gratefully accept it as the least of some bad options. My pick is Iceland. :-)

re: the speech cancellation--does anyone really think that mccain couldn't score an indoor venue for his meager turnouts (let's be generous and say 10K with Palin) if he really *wanted* to? I'd want to watch his chedule for the next day or two, but this may signal a very discreet retreat from PA. In which case it's all over bar the shouting.

and now for the catchpa...
measor: Obama's shot at winning Oklahoma. (I saw there was something of a conversation on my home state's electoral obstinancy in a previous thread--once this one goes irrevocably off-topic I might put up my thoughts on Oklahoma history and politics--it's a more complex tale than outsiders ight think...)

newsinOH said...

fred,

We can reach the same conclusion about Lieberman but the reasons for "shunning" him have to be more than omnibus disloyalty. That's the slippery slope that can include valid disagreements over policy which is exactly how Bush/Cheney defined it. The Dems cannot become a party demanding lockstep group think.

If Lieberman had made statements simply supporting Mc's policies, is that enough to constitute disloyalty?

My point is that there are plenty of very explicable reasons to get him out of any high profile/power positions that rest on valid policy grounds and the Dems are best served by using those explanations rather than just "disloyalty"

It could very well be that the biggest challenge facing the Dems soon is managing their power well. Avoiding an emotional ground like "disloyalty" for a series of rational, fact based list of questionable conduct would be a good first step in staying grounded.

kittles93 said...

Obama is scheduled to speak in Chester, PA this morning.

Don't know if it was cancelled or not.

I was going to go, but I didn't want my little girl to get pneumonia.

Berkeley Bear in Illinois said...

McCain on Stevens is a hilarious counterpoint to his failure to call out the PA media director who hyped the attack story, the VA party chair who told people to link Obama to Osama, and the various psychos who he's been inciting. Not even a comment on the ATF busting up those nuts who wanted to freaking decapitate people in the name of white power.

And I don't want to hear a word from Palin about Rezko and dealing with felons, or that tape of Stevens endorsing her runs 24/7 for the next week. Next to the headline of the Branchflower report and the Keating 5 scandal.

PA John said...

Obama rally in Chester, PA is on:

From Philly.com live blogging:


9:58 a.m.

Actually, the crowd is bigger than I initially thought. The quad at Widener isn't full. But there are thousands of people here. And conditions aren't getting any better. Obama has arrived. The crowd reaction is a little muted. Hard to cheer when you're frozen and you don't want to take your hands out of your pockets.

9:47 a.m.

The traveling press has arrived, which is a very good sign. The sooner the show gets started, the better for everybody. The conditions are hideous. The people who've come out today must really want to be here. These kind of events in these kind of conditions tend to happen in the final week of a presidential candidate, when the weather starts to get iffy and November looms. And they aren't fun for anyone, particularly the voters. We in the press, at least, are getting paid to be here.

9:35 a.m.

Despite rain, cold and heavy winds, the outdoor rally at Widener University in Chester is on. Like Major League Baseball on Monday night, the Obama campaign has decided to ignore the elements and keep going with Plan A. The McCain campaign has canceled an outdoor even scheduled for the early afternoon in Quakertown.

There are a few thousand hardy souls here, far fewer than would have been here under more benign conditions. In deference to the conditions, the Secret Service has waived the normal rule about no umbrellas. But, of course, a lot of people thought umbrellas would be banned. So they didn't bring them. And they're getting drenched.

Gov. Rendell, wearing a Phillies cap, congratulates the crowd for coming out. And he congratulates Obama for rooting for the Phillies. Word is that the event may start a few minutes early. That would be a good idea.

Derek said...

He's speaking at Chester right nw I think and iis doing well... his speech from yesterday...

Sarah, I'm from OK and am young enough not to know the voting history and I'd be curious to hear yourttake on the subject...

As far as Lieberman goes... it isn't his supporting of John McCain that has made him disloyal in my view... the key turning point was when he implied on Fox that Obama was a muslim. that is more than disloyalty, it is sad and pathetic....

bryen193 said...

McCain calls for Stevens to step down. Says Steven's house was "festooned" with free stuff...

Chi said...

Obama's event in Chester, PA is going on as we speak. The crowd is not fazed by the rain and he's out there doing his thing.

jnorthrop said...

@ PA John said... Obama rally in Chester, PA is on:

Looks like the Obama site is going to carry it live:

http://origin.barackobama.com/live/

fred said...

Not to sound like a wacky republican....but....did McCain kill someone while driving drunk?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/news-orgs-investigate-pos_n_138449.html

fred said...

newsinOH-

I think wea agree, I am not talking about throwing him under the bus for valid disagreements - I am talking about throwing him under the bus for questioning our Presidential candidate at the opposing parties convention!

Derek said...

Fred, since when did the Huffington Post become the anti-drudge rport?

That story is rediculous... they wshoudn't even report that stuff without actual knowlege

fred said...

McCain's Chappaquiddick?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/news-orgs-investigate-pos_n_138449.html

Troy said...

@fred
Just saw that, too. For the most part, I don't care. There are enough things we know for sure, no need to dig for more.

Voice of the Midwest said...

McCain BRINGING attention to a call for Ted Stevens to step down is ponderous.

Why bring attention to it? The media still has not received copies of the title, mortgage, promissory note, and bank where the Palin family home is in trust, and you want to bring up a freshly convicted ALASKAN Senator.

A Senator who has supported Palin's career?

I would have told the Senator to can up an answer about focusing on the next seven days (in the event the media brings up Stevens) and have him and Sarah Snowflake non-stop from event to event.

Bringing attention to it is not smart at all. Never respond to a question you were never asked.

fred said...

derek-

All is fair in love and war. This story is based in fact, news org are going after the story. The real slime is the outright lies being spouted by Palin and the repubs.

No comparison to Drudge and the "B" girl.

Joseph said...

Fred

Wow...quite a story. I smell a cover-up as well.

Eric said...

3 polls released in the last 24 hours in Ohio

Survey USA Obama 49-45
Rasmussen Obama 49-45
Zogby Obama 50-45

This is very meaningful 7 days out with voting already started in Ohio. I believe McCain has less than 1 in 1000 chance of winning without Ohio and I think he has a very minimal chance of winning Ohio. There's a bunch of reasons why. 667,000 new voters and Kerry only lost by 119,000 last time. Secretary of State and Governor are Dems, so the GOP will have a tough time stealing it. McCain is already falling behind there.

shadowguidex said...

You don't need 60 YES votes on final legislation, you only need 60 for cloture votes to end discussion and bring the bill to a final vote. You need 50 to pass a bill. Some Democratic senators on the cloture votes will be open to allowing the bill to go to final vote even if they plan to vote NO.

Derek said...

I'm just saying... who cares whast happened in 1964... I wasn't born then... my mom and dad weren't born then... and I don't even think my grandparents were married yet.... That has no reflection on who he is now, I think that was even before his POW days. So even if it is true, it doesnt' matter and I doubt it is true.

Chi said...

Let's see...McCain (very likely) wrecked a car. He wrecked planes. He wrecked his 1st marriage. He's wrecking his campaign. Wait, I see a trend here. This dude shouldn't be let into the Oval Office.

OTF said...

Rasmussen Polls today are:

Arkanasas
Mississippi
Nevada
Pennsylvania

Don't know what time for release.

InkStain said...

"This dude shouldn't be let into the Oval Office."

Ridiculous. Being a POW > competence.

shadowguidex said...

How the FUCK can this guy survive so many car and plane crashes and tortures and shit without dying, seriously? No wonder the guy likes gambling, he's the luckiest dude ever.

Lee said...

Nate, I love ya to death, brother. But looking at the HUGE chart full of numbers in this post, I'm forced to conclude that you are an absolutely MASSIVE nerd.

Massive.


/keep it up, man. Love this site.

Sarah Clark said...

re: HuffPost

Oh, for the love of....People, let's not get piggish. at this stage of the game we have little to gain from this and a lot to lose if there's nothing there--if Obama picked up on this story, which he's way too smart to do. (take a hint.) I'd love to see an electoral college romp as much as any other democrat, but does anyone think that a scandal like this wouldn't have come out at some point in the last 44 YEARS?!?!?! The Democrats' best shot at holding long-term power is to be strong without being vindictive. This borders on witch-hunt. we don't need to go there, let's not go there.

dvdmgsr said...

McCain's Chappaquiddick?

Can't we leave the weak insinuations to the McCain campaign and take the high road?

Flo said...

Are we getting new CNN/Time state polls today???

Derek said...

Also..if it were true I bet Bush would have used it in the 2000 primaries, ROFL

Voice of the Midwest said...

"Rasmussen Polls today are:

Arkanasas
Mississippi
Nevada
Pennsylvania"

What I do know at this point is to add three for Obama and subtract two for McCain in most Rasmussen polls and you get within the margin of error with all other polling sources that use larger samples with better party affiliation breakdowns.

I am betting Rasmussen shakes things out beyond the margin of error a bit toward the end of the week and will claim accuracy after the election.

I want to give them a chance, but they are using methodology from 2000 and 2004 and things have changed since.

newsinOH said...

I posted this last night but, for those of you who weren't around, here's some potentially meaningless/possibly interesting anecdotal info:

I've entered call/canvass data for the local O campaign for months now. Rarely, like once every several thousand, did anyone say they were voting for a third party candidate. Within the last several days, that number has noticeably increased so that it's up to maybe 3-5% of contacts.

My take on it is that some soft Rs in this area have broken toward 3d parties, decreasing the undecideds a bit, while not increasing the Mc potential. But that could just be wishful thinking . . .

InkStain said...

"Can't we leave the weak insinuations to the McCain campaign and take the high road?"

Nope. When people are running for President, I want to know *everything* about them. I at least want the question posed to McCain personally for a denial.

(I also want to see Obama's college transcripts).

walt526 said...

I can't see Palin having any interest in a US Senate seat. She'll have infinitely more opportunity to make a name for herself as governor than she would as a very junior senator in the minority party. Maybe if she loses the 2012 primary and is looking to diversify her experience for 2016 or 2020. But it wouldn't seem to offer any appeal to make the move in 2008.

The Democrats have to tread lightly with Lieberman. Although they may not need him in 2008-10, in all likelihood they're going to lose a few seats in 2010 (incumbent party typically loses in the midterms, plus they'll have more vulnerable seats than the GOP whereas in 2008 they didn't have to seriously defend anywhere). I wouldn't even take the Governmental Affairs Committee chairmanship away from him. With a Democrat in the White House, his views on Iraq will be largely irrelevant; and we'll need his support to get meaningful domestic legislation through. I don't see the point in trying to ostracize him--even if the Democrats pick up the three seats in GA, KY, and MS whereby they wouldn't need his vote. He'll be part of the Senate in 2010-12, and his support will be almost certainly be needed then.

And short of a Supreme Court nomination, I don't see him voluntarily leaving the Senate for an ambassadorship or even a cabinet position. The Democrats need to make nice and focus on passing legislation early next year, not waste time and political capital on settling a personal score (as egregious as Lieberman's betrayal was).

Sonia said...

Can't we leave the weak insinuations to the McCain campaign and take the high road?

Who's we? We don't work for Obama, who the hell cares what people on the internet say.

IF there's any truth to the story, it's huge because 1) IF he killed someone, um, yeah, THAT'S IMPORTANT, and 2) it's a big deal if the Navy is covering it up. McCain only got to where he is in life because he's been coddled the whole time, save for those 5 years when he couldn't get a hamburger, or whatever it is they say.

shadowguidex said...

So, unfounded allegations regarding McCain's past. What don't we know about John McCain? gimme a break, this is stupid. If they have some proof then present it, but otherwise we sound like the McCain campaign constantly questioning Obama's past.

Without evidence this story is just a big turd.