Something of the calm before the storm here, as there has been plenty of polling out since our previous update four days ago, but not in any one particular direction.
As before, the three critical races for any scenario in which the Democrats earn a 60-seat majority are the three vulnerable Republican incumbents in the South. These are Mitch McConnell in Kentucky, Saxby Chambliss in Georgia, and Roger Wicker in Mississippi. All three races lean Republican to the tune of about 2 points.
We could debate all day about which of these races in fact presents the best opportunity for the Dems. Mississippi would seem to be the toughest defense on paper, since Roger Wicker is an appointee rather than a true incumbent, and lacks some of the financial advantages trappings thereof. Mitch McConnell's approval ratings continue to worsen, and Bruce Lunsford has drawn into a tie in at least one poll (SurveyUSA) of Kentucky, but Barack Obama would seem to have fewer coattails there than in the other two states.
In Georgia, conversely, the early voting numbers have been favorable to Democrats, and the state in fact remains winnable for Barack Obama. But we have yet to see a poll putting Jim Martin ahead by any margin, and the race is complicated by the fact that a run-off will occur in December if neither candidate achieves a 50 percent majority (a distinct possibility as Libertarian Allan Buckley is likely to draw somewhere between 1 and 4 percent of the vote). It is hard to say which candidate would benefit from a run-off, but the default assumption is probably Saxby Chambliss, who wouldn't have to contend with an Obama turnout surge then, and who might benefit from an appeal to divided government (assuming that Obama wins the Presidency). Then again, in a world where Obama has prevailed, Democratic morale is likely to be much, much higher than Republican morale, and Democratic wallets are likely to be a bit more open; we could easily see eight figures pumped into a run-off election from each side.
The Democrats, meanwhile, remain the favorite in eight seats that are currently held by Republicans, although they are hardly out of the woods in several of them. Ted Stevens' approval scores have improved incrementally in Alaska, but his fate may be determined by 12 jurors in Washington as much as a couple hundred thousand voters up there. Al Franken's position has improved slightly in Minnesota to the extent where he's ahead in 4 out of the 5 most recent polls. But those polls are also showing a fairly large third-party vote that is unlikely to materialize in its entirety on Election Day, meaning that there are an unusually high number of persuadable voters.
Texas, where Rasmussen shows a double-digit lead for John Cornyn, has probably come off the board for the Democrats; it is no more likely to be a pickup than something like Nebraska, where the Scott Kleeb campaign is very excited about the Democrats' voter registration figures.
On the Republican side of things, Rasmussen shows Mary Landrieu's race in Louisiana tightening a bit, although the GOP nominated a fairly weak candidate in that race and any closure in likely to amount to too little, too late.
Polling follows:
10.24.2008
Senate Projections, 10/24
by Nate Silver @ 8:32 AM...see also senate, senate polls
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251 comments
First?
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Good morning Nate. I see you feel the same way I do -until McCain starts doing something right and being a good person, he ain't gettin' no more pie!
What is going on in Ohio?
Politico/Insider Advantage
Ohio
Obama - 52
McCain - 42
Florida
Obama- 48
McCain -47
In other news, former REPUBLICAN Massachusetts Governor William Weld to endorse Obama
I'm itching to get that fuckturd Chambliss out of office after the crap he pulled on Cleland.
Wow, I got in on the first 10 posts! :)
Anyway, back to the polling update from last night: I'm still surprised that the margins in states like TX and LA are as small as they are. I think Bush won them by much larger margins in both 2000 and 2004.
I'd be interested to see what the gaps are now compared to this time in both 2000 and 2004.
Obama may not win them, but if he keeps the margins to the single digits or the low teens, that says a lot by itself, IMO.
Run off in December? Tens of millions being pumped into the race from both sides? Jesus. My wife is already sick out of her mind with my daily rambling about the election -- this may just result in a divorce.
Thanks for the Senate update. I sure hope Chambliss loses in Georgia. btw, I disagree with your assessment of Barkley in MN. I think those are real votes for him as a 3rd party candidate. As you know,MN voters have had some success with that even if the third party is just their vote against the other two. Coleman and Franken have high unfavorables. (imho, Franken WAS kind of annoying on SNL). I wouldn't be surprised to see Barkley end up winning it. Which is still tons better than Coleman.
If there's a run-off in Georgia, I think the Democrats could raise a lot more money than the GOP for the seat.
Given the Dow Futures this morning, I’d say the 60 seat scenario looks more and more likely.
Every voter is going to walk into that booth with one thing on the mind, the economy. If you have an itch, you scratch it, its all over for the Republicans.
No question MS-Sen is the best chance. I feel good that Musgrove will win this thing, and the latest R2K poll, while having him down one point, has 12 percent of the black vote undecided.
Nate, how is it that Musgrove's chances have gotten worse over the last two updates even though there is no new polling here? I'm telling you: Musgrove is positioned to win. Heck, have you see that Wicker is now using radio ads touting African Americans voting for Obama-Wicker? That says it all.
OT. Where does 375 (as the magic number to count this a landslide) come from?
Graphical Representation of Newspaper Endorsements
Endorsements:
Obama- 128
McCain - 49
Notes: 28 papers, with a 3.3 million circulation, that endorsed Bush have endorsed Obama. McCain has flipped 4.
Last election the final tally was Kerry-213 and Bush-205. Yet another landslide coming.
It seems that Alaska wants to keep Stevens, there is not the anti-incumbent mood that hurts Sen Dole in North Carolina. If he gets acquitted, he´ll keep his seat I´d say. McConnell and Chambliss are going to suffer from high Obama turnout.
It seems to me that Obama voters in Minnesota are split between Franken and Barkley? I would guess that the Republicans there feel "under siege", so I´d suggest that Coleman´s potential is not much higher than his 40%. This might be enough though, but I still think that Franken is through. Hillary Clinton was campaigning for him there this week. The netroots are behind him. Minnesotans seem to like unconventional candidates. Obama´s coattails will help both Franken AND Barkley, but certainly not Coleman...I think Franken is through.
Mississippi is a toss-up, and that´s how it will be at Nov 4th. Musgrove could use some support from a top Democrat, mainly Bill Clinton.
OUCH! DOW Futures at -550 points!
Barkley is popular here for two reasons:
1. He's a native son - Franken & Coleman are seen as carpetbaggers
2. A lot of right-leaning voters just plain don't like Coleman but can't bring themselves to vote for Franken
That's been my experience talking to voters around here, anyway.
What's up with SurveyUSA giving the lead to Coleman so often? That's kinda funky.
Thanks Shawn for the newspapear info. It's interesting that the Arizona Republic which endorsed Bush in 2004 but has yet to endorse McCain. hmmmm.
a friendly reminder to click on the ads at the top of this webpage so Nate, Sean and Brett can get paid.
http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/30451119.html
Okay it didn't work when I commented this before. Anyway, this poll says that Barkley is taking voters from Coleman, but even without the third-party influence Franken still wins.
Being a moderate dem stuck in Oklahoma (yes, believe me, I know they're insane), I'm actually pretty heartened that Inhofe's lead has shrunk to the low double-digits. His opponent's run a very good race against insurmountable odds, and will make it easier for the next dem to have a shot. (I have a theory that OK's populist/libertarian roots may mount a comeback over the next few years as a reaction to the recession and the collapse of the Moral Majority and turn the state a little pinker, but that's another post for another day)
My real conundrum is that I live in Dan Boren's house district. Two years ago I enthusiastically voted for him as a big fan of his father, but between his pandering to the little dixie crowd by refusing to endorse Obama and his votes on the bailout, can/should I hold my nose and do it again?
Leave it to Strategic Vision(R) to bum us all out. We needed the kick in the pants!
Ohio
Obama - 45
McCain - 48
Florida
Obama - 46
McCain - 48
Pennsylvania
Obama - 50
McCain - 43
Georgia
Obama - 45
McCain - 51
I haven't looked at the internals yet.
Obama's fundraising down for first two weeks of October. "He reported raising only $36 million for his campaign during that period, about half the fundraising pace he enjoyed in September." Yeah, he still has money, but let's not take any chances on running out.
Al Franken's position has improved slightly in Minnesota to the extent where he's ahead in 4 out of the 5 most recent polls. But those polls are also showing a fairly large third-party vote that is unlikely to materialize in its entirety on Election Day...
I disagree. The third party candidate usually does fairly well in Minnesota. Jesse Ventura, anyone?
And Norm Coleman was running then too!
I don't think strategic vision provides any internals...
I'm going to agree with others on MN. Historically, the Independence party candidates outperform their polling (Jesse Ventura by a huge margin, Peter Hutchinson in the 2006 gubernatorial election only by about 3%--although that 3% was the difference between 4% and 7%, which is actually a fairly significant outperform).
Barkeley is not only a native son, as someone else mentioned, but he has had this seat in the past (by appointment after the death of Wellstone). He's someone people know and may trust more than the empty-suit, party-flipping Norm Coleman or the bristly Franken.
I'm not too concerned over the fundraising. At this late stage, airwaves matter, but trips into a state and boots on the ground count more than TV time, IMO.
Which one of these is not like the other?
Ohio
Quinnipiac - O+14
Big Ten - O+12
Insider Adv - O+10
Suffolk - O+9
Strategic Vision - M+3
WHAT????
stratigic vision blows. lol. The (R) by there name probably stands for Republican.
Diaego/hotline tracking O 50 M 42 a 2 point gain for Obama from yesterday
hotline
50-43 O +2
http://www.nationaljournal.com/hotline/dailytracker/
Hmm, if you consider Strategic Vision´s Republican lean of about 3%, the results look quite alright (FL O+1, PA O+10, GA M+3). And Ohio seems to be either tied or Obama ahead by 10.
I'll have to agree that the 3rd party votes in MN are likely there. People keep mentioning Ventura, but Barkley had enough votes in the previous election for the IP to gain major party status. The IP is not just a Ventura artifact. It's Barkley's baby. He (Barkley) is a known quantity in MN and probably has as good a name recognition as any 3rd party candidate in his race as anyone.
Still, Ohio is only tied among the pollsters with Republican lean (Mason-Dixon, Strategic Vision, Rasmussen).
shawn
Thanks for the link on the endorsement map. Editors & Publishers did a piece examining the "predictive" value of endorsements and postulated that it wasn't the overall number of endorsements but the spread of endorsements within battleground areas that was most instructive. For example, Kerry had an advantage over Bush in terms of both number of endorsements and circulation (IIRC) but he had far fewer endorsements in OH.
This map is a quick way to watch for ourselves if the endorsements have any value anymore (yet one more thing that fascinates me this year!)
The favorable/unfavorable in the Strategic Vision (R) struck me as out of line. Note the high ratings for Palin:
Ohio
Favorable/unfavorable:
Barack Obama
Favorable 49%
Unfavorable 41%
Undecided 10%
Joseph Biden
Favorable 46%
Unfavorable 42%
Undecided 12%
John McCain
Favorable 48%
Unfavorable 42%
Undecided 10%
Sarah Palin
Favorable 49%
Unfavorable 39%
Undecided 12%
Florida
2. Barack Obama
Favorable 49%
Unfavorable 40%
Undecided 11%
3. Joseph Biden
Favorable 45%
Unfavorable 41%
Undecided 14%
4. John McCain
Favorable 48%
Unfavorable 42%
Undecided 10%
5. Sarah Palin
Favorable 49%
Unfavorable 38%
Undecided 13%
RAS anyone?
I anything those scream outlier.
I really want to see the internals on those Strategery Vision polls. The Palin numbers seem to merit an asterisk.
Rasmussen
O-52
M-45
Unchanged from yesterday
Iowa and New Hampshire at 3 PM
I would take Strategic Vision with the same pinch of salt that I'd take IBD/TIPP.
They're just trying to cheer up the base, no big whoop.
Thanks Ant!
What is going on in Ohio?
It seems like all of the sudden, Obama has surged there. Other than the Strategic Vision poll, all the latest polls have Obama well ahead.
What is to be believed?
I always figured Ohio would be tougher than Florida.
Strategic Vision numbers are not out of the realm of possibility but they seem to be an outlier given most polls have shown Obama with leads in those states.
"he ain't gettin' no more pie!"
No pie for you! Next!!
One good thing about RCP not including partisan polls is that these StrategicVision numbers aren't included in their averages
Those Senate projections are GREAT NEWS!!! For President-Elect JOHN MCCAIN!!!
Ohio and Florida are hard to poll. PPP is coming out with numbers this weekend that show a close race there, apparently.
I feel more confident that Obama will take North Carolina than I do Ohio or Florida at this point, polling is very consistent there and early voting is very favorable to the Democrats.
And in other news out of the North Star State -
In congressional district 6:
Tinklenberg 47
Bachmann 44
Last poll had Bachmann ahead by 5-6
http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/10/poll_tinklenber.php
Well those Palin favorbility numbers in the Strategic Vision Poll don't help the case that those polls by Strategic Vision are possible. They could be but those palin favorbility numbers are whack. Let them help the repubs sleep at night by releasing favorble polls. The truth is give Mccain Florida and Ohio and Obama still wins.
In Georgia, look for Jim Martin to upset Saxby Chambliss. His message: No more "Saxby Economics" has not wavered. Also, he has not aligned himself with Obama, which may help him with conservatives. The AA vote is his by default because we are voting against all Repulsicans.
Republican former Mass. governor endorses Obama
Former Massachusetts Gov. William Weld, a Republican, endorsed Democrat Barack Obama for president on Friday, citing the senator's steady leadership, good judgment and ability to unify Democrats, Republicans and independents.
"Sen. Obama is a once-in-a-lifetime candidate who will transform our politics and restore America's standing in the world," Weld said in a statement.
"We need a president who will lead based on our common values and Sen. Obama demonstrates an ability to unite and inspire. Throughout this campaign I've watched his steady leadership through trying times and I'm confident he is the best candidate to move our country forward," he said.
Weld joined other prominent Republicans endorsing Obama over GOP nominee John McCain in the campaign's final weeks, including former Secretary of State Colin Powell, former Minnesota Gov. Arne Carlson and Scott McClellan, former press secretary to President Bush.
Last year, Weld came to New Hampshire to campaign for another former Massachusetts governor, Republican Mitt Romney, who ended his bid for the presidential nomination in February.
Weld was governor of Massachusetts from 1991 to 1997. Before that, he was U.S. attorney for Massachusetts under President Reagan and was later led the criminal division of the Justice Department.
The Dems in the Senate aren't going to be able to dump Lieberman. In fact, they still like him despite his disgusting campaign for Palim/McCain. Too bad.
And the Stevens case is sounding more and more like mistrial. I suspect that will play the same way as a guilty verdict once it comes out that 11 of the jurors were for guilt (which is what it sounds like).
I am still waiting for "Vera the Dressmaker" or "Valentino the Tailor" to show up at one of McCain's rallies to thank him for the business. (Hell, I'd settle for "Nancy the Nieman Marcus Sales Associate" at this point.)
Sarah Palin is giving a ridiculous "major policy address" on special needs children in the most irritating and grating voice possible. Reading from a speech someone else wrote without having any input in the speech herself. Talk about an empty pants-suit! Uggggh.
Hotline
Obama-50
McCain-43
Finally, this poll was getting annoying
kittles93,
A couple of things could be going on in OH:
1. The ad wars on TV have hit the point of nails on a chalkboard. There's a reflexive cringe whenever one starts, then when it's a JTP ad, your ears start bleeding . . .
2. JTP isn't playing well (poll results on Olbermann last night)
3. Gov. Ted Strickland and Sen. Sherrod Brown have come out loud, strong and often on Obama's behalf throughout central and southern Ohio
4. Sen. George Voinovich (R) has been largely absent but his one comment was to agree that O was a socialist . . . not helpful to Voinovich or Mc
5. Columbus' mayor (D) has also come out strong for O.
6. Not much local R activity at all so exposure is limited to the couple of thousand Mc/P fit in their venues
any more state polls coming out ?
Hobbit said...
And in other news out of the North Star State -
In congressional district 6:
Tinklenberg 47
Bachmann 44
Last poll had Bachmann ahead by 5-6
http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2008/10/poll_tinklenber.php
THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!!!
Mission #1: eradicate right wingnuts.
Dow, Nasdaq and S&P futures are all down the MAXIMUM allowed (5%) before the opening bell today. Any guesses as to what's going to happen on Wall Street today? I heard if the Dow goes down 1100 points they will halt trading. My guess is it will be down HUGE early then rebound and be a very crazy day.
market opening, fasten your seatbelts.
Obama would still have one other trick up his sleeve if he wanted to get to 60 Senators. See if Snowe, Collins, or Specter would entertain a cabinet spot.
But, despite the symbolism, I don't think 60 caucusing votes is that much better than 58 or 59. Snowe and Collins probably would support some clotures. Some other GOP running in 2010 (Martinez, Grassley, Gregg, Burr, Voinovich) won't want to look too obstructionist.
Antmatic--I had seen a comment at PPP that they were not finding a tightening on FL this time around.
Obama up by 7 points in the latest Rasmussen, 52-45. Same as yesterday.
At Strategic Vision Political, we craft winning messages for our clients.
Yea we se you are trying. Those polls are ridiculus and seems to be weighted by Palin fav/unfav 49-38. What a joke.
@antmatic
Ohio and Florida are hard to poll. PPP is coming out with numbers this weekend that show a close race there, apparently.
Based on the clues they have given PPP will come out with an OH number more like that of Suffolk..this means something like O+9 not a close one.
ouch. dow down 445 already in 5 minutes.
SUSA has an Indiana poll out:
Obama 49
McCain 45
Srategic vision is a republican pollster and shouldn`t be included in the RCP averages.
The media is really trying hard to push the theme that McCain has a reasonable chance to come back, afraid the last week will kill the ratings I guess.
McCain is back on the air in Northern VA with 100% negative ads mostly about Obama being unprepared and wants to tax you to death.I expect Va. to be very close, democrats always poll better than the final result but Obama has saturated the airwaves so maybe this year is different.
@LAT
Antmatic--I had seen a comment at PPP that they were not finding a tightening on FL this time around.
PPP does not have a FL poll in the field this week..they were saying that the OH and VA that are field this week were not showing the same tightening they saw in FL last week.
Blogger LAT said...
market opening, fasten your seatbelts.
Do you think the GOP purposefully deregulated the housing market in 2001, knowing full well that a bubble would be created, but betted on it lasting right through this election cycle, rather than flaming out a year too early?
Sarah Palin is by far the most popular of the candidates in all states polled by Strategic Vision. They are really polling their base.
Yeah, Voinovich better watch his step. Ohio had John Glenn and Howard Metzenbaum for years--conservative D and liberal D. They were replaced by Dewine (skin crawlingly conservative IMHO) and Voinovich (more moderate R). Dewine and Voinovich did squat for OH, just basically toeing the Bush line. Dewine paid for it in 06 when Sherrod Brown took his spot (and his coziness with Blackwell will hopefully haunt him into the future).
Now Voinovich's big statement on the election is to agree that O is a socialist . . . Uh, George, did you notice that Ohio led the Forbes list as having the most worse-off cities in the country???? Might want to rethink that assessment of what "socialism" is . . .
If Strickland wanted to move to the Senate, he could probably beat Voinovich and OH would be back to the conservative/liberal Dem dynamic of the past.
fyi, it's Allen Buckley, not Allan. I'm warming to the guy, but I really want Chambliss to lose, and I am by no means in the tank for the Dems.
Dumb question from a Brit.
How does it come about that with the same electorate for the same area, the votes for the Senate and Presidency can be so wildly different? How is it that WV is a lock for McCain but also a lock for the Dem Senator, while Maine is the other way around?
Blogger Badgerhair said...
Dumb question from a Brit.
How does it come about that with the same electorate for the same area, the votes for the Senate and Presidency can be so wildly different? How is it that WV is a lock for McCain but also a lock for the Dem Senator, while Maine is the other way around?
WV wants to be democratic, badly. They're a little hung up on melanin, though.
HAHA What do you know? RCP using the Strategery Vision polls in today's update.
yeah Kid G. And they have the gall to put blame on the dems for this. Head.hits.desk.
kid g
"WV wants to be democratic, badly. They're a little hung up on melanin, though."
Beautiful--well, the phrasing of the statement, not the underlying reality of the statement . ..
@heather...they post the partisan polls (ppp/sv) but don't use them in averages. They have been consistent with this (despite other problems).
What Kid G said. For more detail, google the phrase "little dixie" or "southern democrat". it comes down to demagogues pandering to lowest common denominators and fear of the unknown, and more intelligent/successful young people leaving the rural south as soon as they can.
@mysticlaker -- I stand corrected
Hope this helps~ my husband works in lake county, just east of cuyahoga county, ohio, and said he's seen more bumper stickers/obama lawn signs of ANY democratic candidate EVER!!! The only ones left are the freaks that have like 10 mcsame signs in their lawns. I actually noticed of the mcsame signs that ARE posted in cuy. county, there are 4 gone within the past month(I didn't do it) The enthusiasm is gone for the mcsame camp~not to mention my poor sis's 401k statement came last friday~it went from 80K to 10K..in 1 month!~now she says she can NEVER retire!!! This coming from a woman who's been on her job 25yrs, and has been adding to that 401K for 20 of them~All I can do now is pray!!!
~Special advocate for the Trees...
How many of the ballots in those states have a "straight Democrat" option? The higher the turnout the more difficult it will be for the Republicans to keep the seats.
InsiderAdvantage Georgia
O: 48
M: 47
Georgia
Matt said...
InsiderAdvantage Georgia
O: 48
M: 47
Georgia
And so it begins...
Ask and ye shall receive!
Thanks Nate!!!
I'm so happy that Tinklepants is pushing Crazypants Bachmann out. I donated money to that race.
I also donated money to Martin b/c Chamblass is such a piece of shit. I'm happy to see that race tightening but not enough for me to be happy. Ill prob donate more $ today.
Fuck both of them.
InsiderAdvantage Georgia
O: 48
M: 47
Whoa!
@matt
Georgia O48, M47
WTF?!
someone's balls are about to explode I bet. :)
"And so it begins..."
Are the Vorlons voting ?
"HAHA What do you know? RCP using the Strategery Vision polls in today's update."
They are in the "Latest Polls" listing, but they have not averaged them in. They also post PPP under latest polls but do not include them in the average.
Matt said...
"InsiderAdvantage Georgia
O: 48
M: 47"
HOT DAMN!!!
Looks like I might be losing a bet this year.
How awesome would it be to see both GA and NC go blue? You'd be able to drive from Maine to Florida and never leave a blue state (taking a detour around SC of course).
I donated to Twinkletoes, too! Bachmann has to go.
Wow, that GA number is something else. Landslide, anyone? Is McSame still on the PA strategy. Won't work if he loses GA.
Holy Obama lead in GA Batman!!!
/here comes the tsunami
//puts up umbrella
Nate/Everyone
Does anyone have any comprehensive stats on the early voting this year?
I'd love to know how well Obama is doing in all early voting states, and the kind of numbers McCain would have to put up in each early voting state on election day to make up the difference.
Well when Obama is leading Indiana it is ridiculus to suggest that Ohio is tied. Heck even WV is pretty close. I would say Obama must be ahead by atleast 5-6 points.
Nate,
The Delaware Senate poll numbers are interesting and all, but at this point in the game does it make sense to quote the Markell/Lee governor's race in that state? If Obama/Biden win, will it matter who the governor is? Will Minner still be in office to appoint Biden's successor, or will it be the new guy? Do Delaware laws require the governor to appoint a replacement the same party as the previous Senator, or not? Might make a difference in the Senate math if Bill Lee wins that governor's race and gets to appoint a Repub to replace Biden. (Of course, Lee may have no chance... but I don't know. Haven't seen a poll.)
(On the same theme, if McCain/Palin win, is Janet Napolitano bound to appoint a Repub to McCain's seat or can she appoint a Dem?)
and Insider Advantage is a GA pollster
djl in case you are reading this thread I left you an answer in the last one about Pinochet and Peron.
@gooner
I have found this on early voting
http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html
rich merritt said...
a friendly reminder to click on the ads at the top of this webpage so Nate, Sean and Brett can get paid.
(by the advertiser.) We can each also make a personal donation - there's a paypal link for 538 at the bottom of the left column.
As a lifelong Ohioan, I just don't buy that Obama's up double digits here. 7 or 8, maybe, but most of the rural areas of the state are so conservative that I just can't buy +14.
Reacting to newsinoh's list of possible causes:
1. The ad wars on TV have hit the point of nails on a chalkboard. There's a reflexive cringe whenever one starts, then when it's a JTP ad, your ears start bleeding . . .
Yes. A million times yes. It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like Ohioans really resent being used as a stereotype.
2. JTP isn't playing well (poll results on Olbermann last night)
Yes again. I don't think it plays well here at all.
3. Gov. Ted Strickland and Sen. Sherrod Brown have come out loud, strong and often on Obama's behalf throughout central and southern Ohio
I don't disagree, but I don't think this is huge either. Strickland and Brown play well enough in the southern two-thirds of the state, but I don't think most people look at it as anything other than politicians supporting their party's candidate.
4. Sen. George Voinovich (R) has been largely absent but his one comment was to agree that O was a socialist . . . not helpful to Voinovich or Mc
Again, I don't disagree, but I also don't think this is the sort of thing that is going to dramatically shake things up. It sort of plays like a politician slamming his party's opponent.
5. Columbus' mayor (D) has also come out strong for O.
We've got a mayor?
Oh, right, right. I dunno, I don't see Mike Coleman as any kind of major political force despite the fact that he keeps getting re-elected. IIRC, he wasn't really doing particularly well in the gubernatorial primary before Frankiegate.
6. Not much local R activity at all so exposure is limited to the couple of thousand Mc/P fit in their venues
This is pretty big, I think. The Ohio Republicans haven't really made any waves this year apart from their lawsuits against the Secretary of State. I've got some friends who work fairly high in the Ohio GOP and I know they're bright, competent guys (even though I disagree with their politics), but they're getting their lunch handed to them on the ground.
I think there are a few things at play here: The economy here is bad and getting worse, Joe The Plumber is playing miserably here, the Ohio Democrats have awoken from their decade-long coma, and quite frankly McCain has always been swimming against the stream.
IMO, Ohio undecideds have been looking for a reason to vote McCain and they haven't gotten one.
Thanks, lat, I'll go check it out.
Charles Crook said...
"And so it begins..."
Are the Vorlons voting ?
I had to look that one up...I thought you might have been referring to Star Trek.
Internal details on the Georgia poll.
“Obama is doing better among white voters than Kerry did in 2004 (according to exit polls of that race), carrying some 28 percent of the white vote. He’s carrying around 75 percent both of the Hispanic and ‘other’ vote, which makes up between four and five percent of Georgia’s electorate. He is winning among independents, outside of the margin of error of the poll.
“While this is a tight race, the problem for McCain is that all but 3 percent of whites have made their decision and approximately 8 percent of black voters have continued to say they are undecided or voting ‘other.’ This will likely move closer to 95 percent for Obama when all said and done. Obama has room to go up.
“If the race were to remain the way it is today, you won’t see these numbers come to fruition until very late in the night of Nov. 4 or perhaps the next day. The early numbers will likely show McCain ahead, as the counties where Obama is doing best are some of the largest counties and will be the slowest to report.”
As a Delaware resident, I can tell you a Democrat will appoint Biden's successor if Obama wins.
Minner is in office now. I am not sure if it would be her authority or the next governor's responsibility.
I haven't bothered to check on it because Markell is going to win the Governor's race by a mile.
Georgia, Indiana, Montana, and South Dakota - what do they have in common?
McCain is under 50% in each and the highest % of diaffected Republican voters unafraid to vote Libertarian or Independent over the past five election cycles.
Don't be surprised on Election Night if each goes blue by a decent margin with 3 to 11% going for third parties in each.
my balls exploded.
http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html for early voting stats.
1 million have already voted in Georgia. Only 3.3 million voted IN TOTAL in 2004.
"Obama's fundraising down for first two weeks of October. "He reported raising only $36 million for his campaign during that period, about half the fundraising pace he enjoyed in September." Yeah, he still has money, but let's not take any chances on running out."
Oh noes, he's only on pace for the second highest fundraising month in history.
Ohio residents,
You mention the 'Joe the Plumber' ads have tanked.
Is it possibly because Ohio is in such poor financial shape that it is an insult to most of them that they would have to pay more taxes at $250K in income when they'd love to have income half of that? I suspect many Ohioans would love to be paying taxes on $250K in income.
If you pay a lot of tax, it's because you made a lot of money!
Regarding Ohio's numbers. I'll certainly agree it is unlikely that Obama is up +14. But I'll take 7-9 just fine thank you muchly. I think one of the reasons why JTP plays very poorly in Ohio is the general lack of jobs and constant closing of the factories and other job losses. Ohio's been hit hard and has always struggled at keeping most of the college grads as there are few tech jobs in the state. So the "spread the wealth" concept actually plays better than the "He's a socialist!" one.
matt said...
InsiderAdvantage Georgia
O: 48
M: 47
Balls & Head Explodes !!!
sherwick said...
http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html for early voting stats.
1 million have already voted in Georgia. Only 3.3 million voted IN TOTAL in 2004.
OMFG
@joseph
For your enjoyment:
http://goodnightraleigh.com/2008/10/obama-bat-signal-appears/
@ Heather Nordquist:
That seems about as comprehensive as it can get.
I guess I was hoping each state kept Dem/Rep splits on early voting, but I guess not.
If NC, IA, NV and to a lesser extent Fl are any indication, Obama should be running up a good 2-4% overall advantage in the final voting tally, only due to early voting.
RealClearPolitics.com is Run by GOP Hacks
Debunking the Bradley Effect, Again
Senate Graphs: Democrats 59, Republicans 41
@Gooner
"Does anyone have any comprehensive stats on the early voting this year?"
This Site has some great stats on early voting with good breakdown if the state allows it.
For Example:
North Carolina early voting by ID: D-55.9, R-27.3, I-16.8
Nevada Clark County - D-68.3, R-32.8, I-19.3
Iowa - D-50.5, R-28.2, I-21.3
Low down on GA:
AA make up 29% electorate but voted at a 72% rate in 2004 and thus made up 25% of electorate.
Since 2004 AA registration up by 41%, an increase of 480,300 to 1,636,000 total.
If AA turnout at a rate so they vote their % of the electorate which is 29% and they vote at a 92-95% rate for Obama as many polls show. Obama needs 33-35% of the non AA vote to get 50.1%(win).
As I have for the last week after looking at the final GA stats on the Board of elections website GA could be the surprise of election night!
Obama Uses Bi-Lingual Robocall To Target Hispanic Voters
@newsinOH
Thanks for that link!! LMAO, that's awesome!
Okay so those Clark County numbers don't add up. That's what the site has.
AFL-CIO targets W.Va. for election campaign
(AP) — The AFL-CIO is shifting resources to West Virginia in a move to persuade it’s state members to vote for Barack Obama.
Union spokesman Steve Smith says West Virginia was not on its campaign agenda last week, but a tightening of the presidential race in the state made union officials rethink that position.
Polls show that Obama has made inroads into what was once considered a stronghold for Republican John McCain.
Smith says that movement, and increasing economic issues persuaded the AFL-CIO to bring its national campaign to the state.
There are about 30,000 AFL-CIO members in West Virginia.
Real Joe said...
"Obama Uses Bi-Lingual Robocall To Target Hispanic Voters"
In the previous thread there was a youtube link to an Obama ad spoken by Obama purely in Spanish. Lemme see if I can find you the link. I've got to imagine that'll play well with the hispanic voters that he actually knows their language. Add that to the McCain/Dictator meeting and what do you get?
"Minner is in office now. I am not sure if it would be her authority or the next governor's responsibility."
Presuming Biden becomes VP, he can choose when to resign his Senate seat.
He could resign it while Minner is still the governor, or after the new governor takes office.
His son is the Delaware Attorney General, but is currently in Iraq...
Addendum to GA low down:
I based that on Obama needing 50.1 to win with Barr on the ballot pulling from McCain 2-5% based on many polls it makes things alittle easier.
Hmm...I just went over to RCP and many of today's polls that were up a few moments ago are gone.
Am I living the Twilight Zone?
And 1 million have already voted in North Carolina (55% Dem, 27% Rep) where only 3.5 million voted IN TOTAL in 2004.
In regards to the "Death List"... FL-13 will not be lost by Buchanon. Although Jennings had a real shot at winning this time around a very popular local Dem is running a an Independent. Loks like there will only 33 dead ones...
Dan
Barr said that he believes Obama will win GA
Obama Uses Bi-Lingual Robocall To Target Hispanic Voters
I wonder how he knows who the Hispanic voters are. I hope it's more than just a Hispanic sounding surname.
My last name's Lee and I'm as Caucasian as Caucasian gets, yet I occasionally get junk mail written in Chinese. It really rubs me the wrong way, though I'm admittedly a bit eccentric.
Heather
"Is McSame still on the PA strategy?"
I suspect that McCain is on no stratergy.
He is no longer sharing advertising with the RNC. I am asuming, press releases not withstanding, that this means GOP has abandoned him to do what it can downticket.
This now means that all advertising has suddenly doubled in cost. How much other expenditure was McCain budgeting on to be paid by the RNC via creative accountancy?
He SHOULD have about $1,000,000 a day left, but I dunno. It's implausable that he should have more, but he could very easily have much less. Economics has never been his strong suit.
Thus the downsizing elsewhere to concentrate on PA may in fact just be downsizing. The evidence sugests he is downsizing in PA too.
Like the others who already mentioned it, I believe that the support for Barkley isn't going away, and will likely get stronger running up to the election. Neither Coleman nor Franken are very popular here, plenty of people hate one or the other, and they've each been killing their opponent by running the nastiest ads I've seen in a long time.
I get the sense among some conservatives that if Franken is ahead of Coleman, they might jump ship to Barkley, just to keep Franken out of office.
"As a lifelong Ohioan, I just don't buy that Obama's up double digits here. 7 or 8, maybe, but most of the rural areas of the state are so conservative that I just can't buy +14."
55% of voters are independent today. That was 30% in 1980. Conservatism, like liberalism, is a plural viewpoint. In other words, assuming more people embrace conservatism than not is old thinking.
I am a native Hoosier. Since 1984, Democrats have won 54% of the elections at the county, state, and federal level. The mistaken assumption is that Indiana is conservative. It is actually centrist/moderate with a progressive bent (whether it be liberal or conservatism).
Don't be surprised if Ohio is polling at 6+ to 10+ for Obama at this time. Halve that and you likely have the real margin on Election night (3 to 5% for Obama).
some asians have the surname Lee
that's why you get Chinese junk mail
any chance of a Goldwater Bounce in AZ.?
McCain knows it
its over
@real joe
Yeah, I know, it just bugs me when people I've never met make assumptions about me based solely on my name.
djl,
Again, I totally agree with your remarks. The factors I listed were all just points about what's going on here, not that any of them were determinative alone. I also don't think there's a +14 going on--more like a +3-5.
You're far closer to the red underbelly than I am but my sense of the more red northerners is similar to yours--they wanted to vote for Mc but he's pushing them away. Palin is a big factor up here.
Hey, just got a push poll from justonejudge.com all about pro-life. It didn't mention a specific candidate, just the "vote life". I answered that I would, because I am. However, I don't believe that "life begins at conception and ends at birth" as the GOP does . . .
Nate,
Is there anyplace where one can download the change in electoral vote estimates over time?
Well I was on RCP today and I was selected for a survey on the site and did it. I let them have it on their bias in how they pick and choose polls that put McCain in a more favorable light and told how many people have commented how their site is obviously trying to at most skew the polls for McCain or at least trying to keep up appearance of a horse race. Also, I told them if you are going to use a poll when it favors the candidate you should use it when it isn't favoring them. And lastly, I told them any polls more 2 weeks old should be dropped. For the site to keep up Montanta poll that had McCain up 14 which is influecing the avg. that would clearly have Obama winning if they threw the outdated poll out.
Former Republican Gov. Arne Carlson(MN) endorses Obama, spurred by Bachmann remarks
I saw a couple peeps asking if PA is still the McCain strategy. Both Tom Ridge and I believe one other Republican last night on Chris Mathews confirmed McCain is counting on winning PA to win the election.
I thought it was odd they answered a question regarding his strategy. Maybe they are bluffing and they are counting on loosing all the battle ground states and winning the NE of the U.S. or something Mavericky like that.
So... will we see Obama having a rally at Olympic Park in Atlanta next week??
"any chance of a Goldwater Bounce in AZ.?" (Kelly)
We've been so consumed with the Bradley Effect that we haven't considered the Goldwater Effect. ;)
Arizona has not been polled in a while and the AZ Republic had commissioned ASU for a mid-October poll that still has not materialized.
Word on the inside is that it was embarassing for McCain and the AZ Republic is scared of McCain after he bit their head off in the mid 90s.
Here we go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZhu8SaodPw
Found an ABC article on early votes
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/TheNote/story?id=3105455&page=1
In New Mexico
Between absentee and early,
D-127929
R-77575
I-25707
Total 231211
for 29.8% of the total earlies in 2004 -- Heck, I think we beat GA!
Thus the downsizing elsewhere to concentrate on PA may in fact just be downsizing. The evidence sugests he is downsizing in PA too.
That seems pretty likely -- it was a pretty good bet that the media would buy their happy talk about PA at least for a while, and they could avoid a repeat of the "pulling out of Michigan" debacle. They have to maintain the illusion that they have a real chance.
Suffolk - Massachusetts
O: 53
M: 34
The one everyone's been waiting for!
Real Joe said...
"Barr said that he believes Obama will win GA"
As if former confederates VA + NC and IN weren't enough of a surprise.... the fact that we are even discussing GA now as a serious possibility is major "OH SHIT" for McCain.
Speaking of the Bradley/Goldwater affect.
Should we just go ahead and coin the "Palin Affect."
A voter says they are voting for Palin because they don't want to be labeled a sexist but once in the polls realizes she's a complete ditz and pulls the lever for the other ticket.
You heard it here first folks.
I am Hispanic in NM. The Spanish ad is GREAT!! His pronunciation is actually very good. I haven't seen it play here yet. Will flip to Univision soon and see if it plays.
jwb said...
The favorable/unfavorable in the Strategic Vision (R) struck me as out of line. Note the high ratings for Palin:
these are the first polls i've seen,where i believe they're cooked. i could be wrong, but it's not difficult to do. who runs the strategic vision outfit?
GWU/Battleground: Obama 49, McCain 46
heather nordquist:
You are hispanic? I will definitely NEVER make assumptions of race based on name again!
"As a lifelong Ohioan, I just don't buy that Obama's up double digits here. 7 or 8, maybe, but most of the rural areas of the state are so conservative that I just can't buy +14."
There are now too many polls giving big leads in Ohio just to dismiss them as outliers.
Clearly it is possible to construct LV models that ether give Obama a walkover or a cliffhanger.
In that much of Obama's new suppots is from groups that traditionaly don't actualy materialize the reason is obvious enough.
It is the difference between just using numbers, and going out to feel the enthusiasm. This time is different. They will vote.
Wow Republicans are falling like old, cracked bricks at this point.
"Well I was on RCP today..."
Here is why RCP cherry picks for polls more favorable to McCain:
1) Money....ad money.
2) A blowout attracts no audience.
The righties have money and corporations will only advertise with 'safe' media outlets. 'Safe' as in one that will not embarass them or the corporate infrastructure of the United States.
The Republican Party has been an adjunct member of the corporate infrastructure of the United States since the railroad barons took over the GOP in the late 1800s.
Nate and 538 pay no heed to caution or being 'safe'. They report all information and let the reader discern for themselves. With that, I ask everyone to support the businesses who advertise with 538.com.
heather nordquist said...
I am Hispanic in NM. The Spanish ad is GREAT!!
Illegals can't vote ??
Eric said...
"jwb said...
The favorable/unfavorable in the Strategic Vision (R) struck me as out of line. Note the high ratings for Palin:
these are the first polls i've seen,where i believe they're cooked. i could be wrong, but it's not difficult to do. who runs the strategic vision outfit?"
Let's see, polled favorables of Palin as being on par with all other 3 candidates. Shows none of the internals on their poll. My Nate inspired edumacation suggests we shouldn't put too much faith in this one goshdarnit.
Yeah Man Ohio = OBAMA SURGE!
Neiman Marcus = Plain SPLURGE...!
:D
The early voting stat for Cuyahoga County on the website linked above is inaccurate. According to the Cuy Cty BOE, 97445 absentee ballots have been returned (of 246503 requested). That number does not include early voters who vote in person at the BOE and that number alone appears to be substantial based on BOE workers I've talked to.
can someone please explain gwu/battleground to me? what's the deal?
Voice of the Midwest said:
With that, I ask everyone to support the businesses who advertise with 538.com.
Sorry, I just can't get myself to donate to John McCain.
@realjoe
First, my family has been here for 5 generations. Second, there are people who have come here legally and obtained citizenship. I just ran into my neighbors the other day. They are new American citizens and are very excited about voting for the first time. Get over yourself.
If I am fluent in two languages, that actually makes me somehow inferior to you?
Does anyone know why the strategic vision polls were removed from the RCP "latest polls" page? There is no trace of them anymore.
Kid G said...
"Voice of the Midwest said:
With that, I ask everyone to support the businesses who advertise with 538.com.
Sorry, I just can't get myself to donate to John McCain."
You don't have to. But if you click on their ad, it makes 538 look like a good advertiser for McCain and he spends more money on said ad.
I will definitely NEVER make assumptions of race based on name again!
Here on 538, we've got Hungarian Lees, Hispanic Nordquists...this is what I'm sayin'.
Stop sending me mail in Chinese!
:-)
Chuck,
I'm fairly certain I've seen the disappear and reappear several times this morning.
chuck said...
"Does anyone know why the strategic vision polls were removed from the RCP "latest polls" page? There is no trace of them anymore."
Because even RCP realizes they are bogus polls that totally messed up?
@kid g
LOL. I married the Swede, but my mom is a native New Mexican and dad is a blonde cowboy from Missouri. So, my maiden name of Shelburn wouldn't have helped you either. This country is truly a melting pot. That is why the prospect of an Obama presidency is so cool.
I came up for a term to describe the contiguous states that are looking to remain red from about Idaho to Alabama (the plains to the south) on a line from the northwest to the southeast:
The Gravy Belt
The Gravy Belt is mainly middle class to poor, mainly white, rural, and will vote against their own economic self-interests if they feel their cultural interests are at peril. The latter is a fear-based notion, but fear sells in the Gravy Belt.
Your thoughts on the term?
Real Joe, stop being an ass. Ability to speak Spanish (or any other language for that matter) != illegal.
The last time that McCain led in a national poll was 9/28/2008 by GWU/Battleground...
That is incredible. This is nothing like 2000/2004 where national polls were all over the place in Oct. It's amazing.
Blogger chuck said...
Does anyone know why the strategic vision polls were removed from the RCP "latest polls" page? There is no trace of them anymore.
I read somewhere this morning that the Dems bought RCP with the extra money they had left over.
Obama's gonna win IN and MT -- great strategy on the part of the McCain campaign.
Let's hear some more about 'socialism' and 'Joe the Plumber' and 'Ayers' because I'd like to see Obama win Arkansas and Kentucky too.
Amazing -- Schmidt thought he'd run a Karl Rove campaign but the big problem was that it was McCain running this year and not W. I think we now know that 2000 was no fluke -- Bush was by far and away the superior candidate versus McCain.
If this idiotic campaign had been talking about the economy in the summer instead of putting out 'celebrity' ads perhaps the electorate would be taking them more seriously today.
I hope it's an avalanche in the electoral college so that Palin's chances of emerging as the 'future' of the GOP are flat-out destroyed.
John Murtha said Western PA is racist, so it will be difficult for Obama.
Forcefield, I guess you're right, they just came back. I was kind of hoping they had been retracted or something. The palin numbers, much like the 18-24 numbers in the IBD poll yesterday, have at least given me a reason to totally ignore them.
RCP is melting down today. I think they finally had a psych breakdown. The yahve removed all but 6 polls and even all the national polls but Zogby.
"Illegals can't vote ??"
Oddly enough, many of the hispanic families in New Mexico have lived in American longer than many of the white families in the rest of the country.
Morons tend to forget that New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Nevada, and California used to belong to Mexico, and thanks to James K. Polk they now belong to USA. We didn't boot out the Mexicans that already lived there, we renamed them Americans.
DarĂo said...
John Murtha said Western PA is racist, so it will be difficult for Obama.
The polls absolutely verify this sentiment.
heather nordquist said...
@realjoe
First, my family has been here for 5 generations. Second, there are people who have come here legally and obtained citizenship. I just ran into my neighbors the other day. They are new American citizens and are very excited about voting for the first time. Get over yourself.
If I am fluent in two languages, that actually makes me somehow inferior to you?
whoa !
i was not talking about you heather
The Strategic vision polls are there for me.
@realjoe
The Spanish settled the Southwest before your family hit Ellis Island. Wait, maybe that makes me more American than you?
Come mierda!
RCP all polls back now. The Obama+1 in GA is up now too. Maybe that poll number made RCP have a panic attack and hit the delete button on all the polls and they had to reeiter everything after they stopped hyperventilating.
I don't know when early voting in Nevada stops, but if the numbers keep up the way they're going, that state will be locked up for Obama pretty soon here. That's all he should need to get to 269.
otf said...
RCP all polls back now. The Obama+1 in GA is up now too. Maybe that poll number made RCP have a panic attack and hit the delete button on all the polls and they had to reeiter everything after they stopped hyperventilating.
RCP is confused
"In 2000 - Bush was by far and away the superior candidate versus McCain."
Never run a candidate who has not experienced the sting of electoral loss. Worse than that is the candidate who has lost and cannot grasp why he/she was beat.
Bush, as daft as he is, learned from his personal losses and the loss of his dad - and went nuclear in every election after that.
McCain was never contested before he ran in 2000 and didn't learn from that.
So - what will be the size of McCain's lead in the IBD/TIPP poll today?
the population in the penn "T" or "pennsyltucky" is not that high, and falling. most of those counties are losing population. meanwhile, SE penn is extremely populus and full of people who will vote for Obama.
just remember, KERRY took PA. sure, he's white, but he's also a Senator from Massachussettes... and lib'ruls from Taxachussettes are not that popular with rural voters either.
RCP is playing games. Somehow they removed the SUSA Obama +4 from the IN averages.
"You mention the 'Joe the Plumber' ads have tanked. Is it possibly because Ohio is in such poor financial shape that it is an insult to most of them that they would have to pay more taxes at $250K in income when they'd love to have income half of that?"
"Joe the Plumber" tanked the moment it was established that he is not an undecided voter, but a Rush Limbaugh "dittohead" who hates social security. That McCain is still using "Joe" is more evidence that he's lost his (political) bearings.
McCain met with Pinochet (Dictator from Chile).
"John McCain, who has harshly criticized the idea of sitting down with dictators without pre-conditions, appears to have done just that. In 1985, McCain traveled to Chile for a friendly meeting with Chile's military ruler, General Augusto Pinochet, one of the world's most notorious violators of human rights credited with killing more than 3,000 civilians and jailing tens of thousands of others. The private meeting between McCain and Pinochet has gone previously un-reported anywhere by the U.S. media."
Matt said...
So - what will be the size of McCain's lead in the IBD/TIPP poll today?
Watch it be O+8 as the kids come back to the fold and they start calling NY and CA again.
Daniel said...
"Obama's gonna win IN and MT -- great strategy on the part of the McCain campaign.
Let's hear some more about 'socialism' and 'Joe the Plumber' and 'Ayers' because I'd like to see Obama win Arkansas and Kentucky too.
Amazing -- Schmidt thought he'd run a Karl Rove campaign but the big problem was that it was McCain running this year and not W. I think we now know that 2000 was no fluke -- Bush was by far and away the superior candidate versus McCain.
If this idiotic campaign had been talking about the economy in the summer instead of putting out 'celebrity' ads perhaps the electorate would be taking them more seriously today.
I hope it's an avalanche in the electoral college so that Palin's chances of emerging as the 'future' of the GOP are flat-out destroyed."
Even if they had switched to the economy and actually presented something that vaguely resembled a unified plan rather than make comments such as "turn the page on the economy" and "if we talk about the issues we lose" they might have kept it somewhat close.
heather nordquist said...
@realjoe
The Spanish settled the Southwest before your family hit Ellis Island. Wait, maybe that makes me more American than you?
whoa !
hey
there are millions of Americans who are hispanic
also there are millions of illegals who are hispanic
Joe the Plumber lost credibility with many when it was revealed that he isn't licensed as a plumber, and that he owes back taxes.
Heather--thank you for the most eloquent defense of us latino immigrants or american citizens of hispanic origin. I particularly endorse your line in spanish--exactamente!
Sorry real joe but this is not the first time you start with the immigrants are illegal fear mongering. I remember you doing this a few threads back.
Chrysler to cut 25% of salaried workers.
How does that play in IN, OH, PA?
RCP has been busted before. Comparisons of screen shots have been pulled out before showing them cherry picking from one day to the next if the polls did not keep the horse race alive.
It is not as much that they want the GOP to win as much as they want to not offend the party that can turn the money switch off with major advertisers.
Nate is the Financial Times willing to let the reader discern. RCP is the Wall Street Journal - too safe sometimes for their own good.
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