10.03.2008

Post-VP Debate Thoughts

As with the Obama-McCain debate last Friday, the vast majority of the insta-polls went to the Democratic ticket. Biden won the CBS poll of undecideds 46-21, and the CNN poll of debate watchers 51-36. Independents in the large MediaCurves focus group panel went for Biden about 2:1.

The internals, however, weren't nearly as bad for Palin as the topline results. She got a jump in preparedness in the CBS poll, and the CNN found that a large majority of voters concluded that she had beaten their expectations.

Palin's largest problem, to my eyes, is that she was tangibly nervous for most of the debate, rushing through talking points and canned jokes alike with unsually little inflection. I doubt that this will impact her favorables much -- in fact, it seems likely that her favroables will improve. But it may contribute to the increasing feelings of dis-ease that some voters have with the McCain campaign, which no longer seems like the manifestly safer choice.

The McCain campaign did not opt, in the end, for Sarah Barracuda. They wanted
Palin scripted, and in some cases she seemed to have her lines literally memorized. This was the more risk-averse choice, but provided for few genuine moments of spontaneity.

It also allowed Joe Biden to get a lot of free shots in at John McCain, several of which were quite effective. Perhaps, in the end, this wasn't as difficult a debate for Biden to prepare for as it had been made out to be. Hammer McCain, knowing that Palin would have to go off-script to defend him. It also allowed Biden to be the more emotive candidate.

Sean will talk more about this, but I suspect that the Sarah Palin chapter of the campaign is largely over. She may draw large crowds in her next couple of public appearances; it's also not out of the question that the media will sour on her performance in the forthcoming days, once it's been removed somewhat from her safety net of low expectations. But after that, she may largely fade into the background, and if she is making news, it may not be for reasons the McCain campaign likes.

At the end of the day, this is another missed opportunity for the McCain campaign, a fact which is only betrayed by conservative commentators' hyperbolic attempts to spin to the contrary. But McCain may well have been willing to take that settlement ahead of time, figuring they had more to lose tonight than to gain.

109 comments

Norm said...

First?

Peterbilt said...

First!

Frankly, I found her aggressive folksiness, what with the winks and the nose wrinkles and the talking-to-a-cocker-spaniel voice patronizing and annoying.

Biden wiped the floor with her, plain and simple.

Marc said...

I completely agree on the point that the media will sour on her performance. Soon the headline will just be "Biden wins debate"

cookie-nut said...

Hi Nate! Love your analysis as always. What do you think of the "Biden choke up" moment? I'm seeing some talk around the blogs, and I think that while it was a genuine moment, it was also ironic: Some cynics thought for sure it would be Palin to break down.

Also interesting is her reaction (or lack of reaction) to his break down.

Li said...

Somehow - as a democrat, I still don't feel safe about the election.

Beth said...

Thank you for noticing what others, including my best friend didn't or wouldn't admit. She was nervous, a few times I saw terror in her eyes, it was those times that she had a long pause. She may have redeemed herself, I don't believe she had the power to redeem McCain.

Seattle said...

I agree completely.

But I'm sure the national polls will tighten slightly in a few days.

Until next Tuesday's debate!

RedHawksO4 said...

Biden did well indeed. Yes, Palin beat expectations, but barely...


Debate Reactions and Debate Poll

John said...

My Fiance' who isn't necessarily "plugged in" and used this to get and idea about Sarah Palin, actually came away from this debate repulsed by her. She sighted her nervousness, her responses to women's issues, and her apparent inability to answer the question at hand. I have NEVER seen such a strong reaction from her regarding politics in general. I have a distinct feeling that will show with a lot of voters who tuned in to see what kind of person McCain chose to run with. It may not be a game changer, but McCain's slide downward isn't helped by this.

Thatcher said...

Defining moment ...

Biden talking about being a single father ... USA connected with Biden and Biden connected with USA (1:14 on) and Palin didn't show empathy or sensitivity and went straight to "Maverick" talking points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmruJHMlYCA

Watch the uncommitted's dial scores. What I wish I would have seen is how low the dials went during her response.

When we look back ... that will be THE moment everyone will recall.

Darren said...

Soledad O'Brien was pretty quick to call the CNN focus group a "decisive win" for Biden. I saw a roughly equal number of hands go up for each, though the Palin supporters were a bit shy about it, as she asked them to raise their hands only after saying (incorrectly) that a "large majority" had picked Biden. She apparently didn't bother to count the hands, or simply had her own preconception.

It was a little hard to give her questions any credence after that shoddy start.

PorridgeGun said...

Shit, I forgot to post this earlier. Although, to be fair, we couldn't post anything for a bit there.


For tonight's VP debate, play PalinBingo!!!

http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/for-tonights-vp-debate-play-palinbingo.html

John said...

By the way, am I the only one that was almost disturbed by the amount of smiling? Not always at appropriate moments, and a lot of non verbal queues from her.

L Lawson said...

How did this baseball "stat-head" (as Rather said) become the guy I turn to for political analysis? I don't know, but I'm glad I found this website. I hope some big company picks up 538 to do analysis for them.

As for the debate: Palin rose above expectations. Biden, however, became my hero. Except for saying he was against gay marriage, I was deeply impressed by the man.

Kudos all around!

Bob said...

The right wing loved her performance. The rest of the world saw a series of mini-speeches. Everybody got something. Considering Obama's adding to the voter rolls it seems that merely energizing the right is not going to be enough for the Republicans this time.

Liz said...

Senator Biden did an OUTSTANDING job tonight! He was clear, factual & spoke from the heart. He was substantiative on the issues posed on him, while Gov. Palin was robotic and not on point. Gov. Palin's performance this evening might have rallied the republican base once again, but if you cut through all her (sometimes poorly) memorized talking points, she lacked substance & showed very clearly what an empty shell she is & will be under the McCain/Palin administration.

Also I just cannot believe that when asked about we were going to fix the education system she replied, "We gotta ramp it up!!".

Wall Street needs to be shaked up huh... And we gotta hunker down on Iran too now doncha think?

Ugh. People who thought she won need to be quarantined. It seems we have a very large group of "non-answer" lovin idiots running amok. We cannot let them breed I tell you!

nick said...

"Governor Palin, what is the McCain/Palin exit strategy for Iraq?"

"Well, boy-howdy-golly-gee I'm proud to say that it is a good one."

At this point everyone in the bar I was watching at tuned her out to talk about how dead-on Tina Fey was. To explain why that impacted me so deeply, the bar is in Kansas.

oct said...

Palin is mean-spirited like McCain.
She likes to say nasty things with a smile, like a nasty Soccer Mom--the kind that scares me when I was a kid.
I thought she might pull a gun on Biden with that Freakish smile--serial killer smile really.

PorridgeGun said...

My Orginal Prediction:


Biden won't be Biden. He'll be the Obama '08 version of Biden. In my view, that's a bad thing.

Palin is fully protected from any embarrassing moments. Modfications to the debate format, courtesy of the McCain campaign, effectively saw to that. Biden isn't even allowed to engage her in a face to face debate. That's absurd.

Like we saw at the RNC, Palin will be fully prepped and ready with talking points that have been drilled into her head by Schmidt. Even a blithering idiot whose spent time in debate camp can be made to look good.


Gwen Ifil will lob softballs at Palin all night. Jim Lehrer's moderating in Debate One was piss-poor. He let McCain ramble and get in the last word. Expect worse from Ifil. I still remember her utterly irrelevant, not to mention retarded, questions 4 years ago with Cheney vs. Edwards.



The MSM will instantly declare Palin the winner (exceeding low expectations, a zinger here and there, etc.),. Bottom line: The McCain Media need a HORSE RACE, or the perception of one.

Clemens said...

in regard to her answer on education. Am I the only one who finds her incredibly annoying when she starts talking "folksie"? I almost expect her to finish her sentence with "awww shucks" and rub her toe in the dirt. It's like she is talking to a bunch of fifth graders when she does this. I personally find it insulting.

Brian said...

Great commentary, Nate. I agree with your summary points. I am cautiously optimistic that Obama/Biden will continue to lead in the polls, but I know that there is still a lot of work to win this election. I'm heading to Ohio from Texas tomorrow to do some volunteering for the campaign. I'm very excited. My first time to ever help out with a campaign other than donating some cash. Keep up the great work with the site!!

mia said...

She was confident, but she made many obvious mistakes. This will all come out in the wash, I expect, once the shock/relief that she is actually mentally competent wears off. She may be largely clueless, but she is clever. But I think you're right; the safety net of low expectations is gone.

Thanks for the coverage. I really enjoy your blog, Mr. Silver.

oct said...

"Dog on it. There you go again Joe lookin' backwards"

How old is she? 3 years old. Is she trying to get the stupid-fuck vote? Bush is <30 in approval. Dumbass is out Repubs.

shadowspecies said...

Listen, i think nate was dead on. This may be partisan of me...but tonight Joe showed me EXACTLY why i liked him even back during the iowa debates. Hes straight to the point and doesnt mince words.


With regards to palin, i think in the coming days this will break to bidens favor, because the main story right now is how palin didnt collapse. When it becomes a more involved critique, biden beat the snot out of her.

In addition, i didnt like her cockiness with the smiles and the winks. She was a little too slick for me.

Lawyer said...

Isn't it clear she doesn't know what "Achilles Heel" means?

stive said...

Palin thinks that she lost the VP debate.
Smottret this interview here: http://tubedirects.net/index.php?q=Palin-Fox-interview

Jeremy said...

She was like a trained monkey.

All she needed was a little bell at the tip of a cap and to ask passer-by's for peanuts.

Tyson said...

The GOP doesn't need a candidate... They need a CD with a scratch in it.

I though Christopher Walken was going to walk in and say 'What this debate needs is more MAVERICK'

DCM in FL said...

The hair in her eyes that she kept shaking & blowing off her face was ANNOYING,

as were the other snarky facial ticks & inappropriate grinning & shucking & jiving & drawling [they do NOT talk like that in Wasilla, AK].

how many cutesy gimmicks can one ex-beauty queen throw out there ?

plus many of her 'answers' were intentionally NOT answers to the Q's asked. and Palin was defiant about her right NOT to respond to the moderator/pundit's direct Q's...

too cute x12 - and she made my 79 y/o professional [retired] widowed mother squirm in discomfort for women everywhere...

plus my mom was upset that palin had dumped her disabled infant on her pregnant daughter AGAIN - then dragged the infant on STAGE - then paraded the infant around the stage under those lights late at night when the baby should be in a nice quiet comfortable crib with it's mother in the next room on the monitor !!!

my mom despises Palin now just for that - maybe because my mom had her own downs child late in life but her baby died right after birth...

so the entire Palin 'special needs' drama is open to a big backlash from parents who do not parade their special needs baby around for PR purposes when they should be caring for them...

some 'family values' to go with the pregnant daughter too... as well as all the other baby mama dramas in that disfunctional family...

oct said...

Another thing. If there was a way to create jobs with Tax Cuts then why hasnt Bush netted any new jobs the last 8 years?

If Palin can give us new domestic energy then why dont we have any after 8 years of Bush and Cheney (TWO OIL MEN).

Do American's think we have any oil in the US? The OIL is gone. What a massive LIE.

jjj1951 said...

Senator McCain, I am old enough to have watched "Maverick". I know "Maverick". James Garner was "Maverick". Senator, you're no James Garner and you're no maverick.

j said...

I was really disappointed that Gwen Ifill let Palin prattle on with talking points that were completely irrelevant to the questions asked. There was effectively no debate. It was Joe Biden being interviewed by Gwen Ifill with Sarah Palin offering some sort of awful white noise that cut in too occasionally. In many ways it was this way during the first McCain/Obama debate. I hope the moderators for the coming debates will be more agressive in demanding answers.

Barry Rubinowitz said...

There were two winners tonight: Obama and Palin
Biden did a great job of attacking McCain and supporting Obama, and I thought he probably scored all the points he needed to for Obama to hold his lead.
Palin rehabilitated herself politically, which is a big personal win and becomes the leader for the 2012 GOP nomination with the wholehearted support of the religious right. Which, frankly, is really really scary.
She will have no televised or recorded interviews the rest of the campaign, only tossing red meat at adoring audiences. The punditocracy has declared her the winner -- ignoring polling data, mostly because middle-aged guys like Roger Simon and Howard Fineman got chubbies from the rear-view shots of her. There is more than one way to be a winner of a debate.

cher said...

As a woman I find her fake smiles and too cute reactions to be way over the top and not what I thought women had worked so long and hard to achieve. I watched on CNN and thought that women rated her low on her trying to be cute stuff. When I saw the CNN focus group though I wasn't overly impressed with them either though so maybe it is simply me. I can see going for the hard republican anti gay pro life vote with this woman but I annot imagine Republican intellectuals buying into her down home look how cute I am stuff. Her failure to answer the questions was so hard to look at. I thought Joe Biden did very well and I would be terrified to go to sleep with this woman sitting anywhere near the white house. John Mc Cain should hang his head in shame but guess that is not the issue.

booond said...

CNN poll: 87% Biden, 42% Palin on who is Presidential... game over.

I'd use the "five weeks" comment if I were Obama.

Joel said...

1) Pundits were completely wrong on expectations.
2) Ifill sucked.
3) Biden was careful to correct himself.
4) Palin kept using talking points.
5) Notecards. I mean, come on!

JJ said...

stive said...

Palin thinks that she lost the VP debate.
Smottret this interview here: http://tubedirects.net/index.php?q=Palin-Fox-interview


This site was blocked by by browser. DO NOT USE THIS LINK. Its a fake site and has nothing to do with palin

mark said...

100% agree J

moderators need to be more pressing and demand answers, no more pussy footing around...

Rodney Peterson said...

A dangerous criminal text messages a death and stabbing threat against Bristol Palin and her unborn child and is reported to the Secret Service.

Complete story:

www.myspace.com/370392338

PorridgeGun said...

Biden was 50/50, which was good, as proven by the overwhelming approval from undecideds and the focus grups/snap polls.

I give Biden enormous credit for not bursting out laughing while Mooseburger was saying stuff. I thought she came across as a scripted loon, quite frankly. You could almost see Steve Schmidt pulling the strings behind her. It ws utterly bizarre.



Back to 50/50 Biden. He did his Obama '08 duty, but more importantly, stepped it up and addressed the camera and showed the American people who Joe Biden is. The differnce in authenticity was stark. Palin just pulled her convention act, hoping it would fly with people outside the FReeptad U.S.A.



Gwen Ifil didn't disappoint. She was certainly better than 4 years ago, and I give her credit for that. Some of her questions were extremley relevant. She was light years better than Jim Lehrer. And she'll certainly be bettre than McCain hacks Brokaw and Shieffer.




The MSM didn';t have anything to work with, in terms of creating a HORSE RACE. The voters for once are contradicting their biased reporting.

mhigh said...

>>...but I suspect that the Sarah Palin chapter of the campaign is largely over...<<

Yup, that's my conclusion, as well as one of the commentators on CNN.

Palin did just fine. In various blogs the left-wing is talking about how terrible she did, while the right-wing is singing her hosannahs. No surprises there. But Palin did what she needed to do, and we move forward.

Before tonight, Palin was a huge stone around McCain's neck. She did well enough that she is no longer a stone, but not great enough to turn that stone into a baloon. Her performance largely puts to rest the growing cat-calls about her incoherence and incompetence, the calls for her to step down. (Oh, they won't disappear completely - but now it will just be limited to the partisan far-left instead of across the political spectrum)

Before tonight she was "an issue". She is no longer an issue. So now we begin to address other issues that the "Palin Problem" has been eclipsing over the past couple of weeks.

And that's not necessarily any warm comfort for McCain, since he was losing on those 'other issues' before Palin came along. And ten-plus points down in the polls to boot.

cher said...

The hair in the eye was very difficult ....... Tina is working on that already we hope... I was very impressed to see how well she can read her talking points and snark and happy that there is only one debate that I simply had to watch. She is already history in my mind.

oct said...

The Palin issue is now finished. We will no longer discuss her anymore. The media will forget her.

It is the economy and the credit markets once again.

Tomorrow yes a little more Palin-isms and her weird folky smiles like that of a vindictive serial killer. Sure a little more of that...

Then the Economy for 33 days. Then President Obama.

Malcolm said...

I agree that we'll see a lot less of her henceforth. She'll host fundraisers and appear at rallies, where she can give her canned speeches to the partisan crowds, but won't be making appearances in the media anymore.

DCM in FL said...

for SEAN Q.

my local DEM HQ got a deliever in late this afternoon of new Obama/Biden 'hope/change' yard signs in styrofoam for the FL weather.

there was a line out the door in New Symrna Beach to buy them for $6 each with a reservation - and they ran out within an hour.

also all bumper stickers & other signs are long gone.

Obama signage is now the MUST have accesory for everyone suddenly this week here in central FL/Volusia County !!!

volunteers are tripping all over themselves at the HQ, DNC is advertising on TV against Feeney to support Kosmas, Clinton at UCF yesterday, polls through the roof...

my HOA will not allow yard signs, so I have been busy distributing bumper stickers to neighbors to put on cars & in windows.

I snagged 2 yard signs tonight that I had 'reserved'. Gave one to an elderly widow down the street as a 84th BD present - she LOVED it & asked me to help her fill out her absentee ballot for Obama. It went into the mail today - another vote banked in advance...

her daughter in Orlando asked me to get her some strickers & signs too

My own yard sign went up at dusk in my front kitchen window & because it is styrofoam, it backlights opaquely so it can be seen glowing from the street.

within minutes, 2 people came up to my front door to ask me how they could get their own signs for Obama...

last week - nothing

this week, ENTHUSIASM x2.

FL is going BLUE, folks !!!

STepper said...

Was she really reading from 3 x 5 cards? Was this a debate or an open book test?

Jen said...

The word maverick is the most annoying word in the English language right now.

The only thing more annoying than Palin calling McCain a maverick is McCain calling himself a maverick. You cannot call yourself a maverick.

I would also like to repeat Allison's comment from an earlier thread that if McCain is Maverick that makes Palin "Goose", which she probably likes since it rhymes with Moose.

Final Dodger score 10-3, be still my heart. Plenty of time for them to mess it up though.

JL said...

this is horrible - Cubs just lost another... :( they are in deep trouble. Fielding, pitching...
great blog - I just wish the press and blogs and comments would stop giving Palin credit for not tanking or meeting some low bar. I don't recall anyone getting a pat on the back in school when they barely passed; I don't recall seeing those at work get bonuses or raises for meeting some low bar of expectations. Palin may be kinda cute and kinda golly gee - but letting her off the hook for doing better than what she did with Katie Couric is falsely generous and for me personally completely degrading as a woman. Maybe I'm upset because the Cubs are close to not making anything of their awesome season - wait til next year my a$$. Maybe I should just shrug and say - oh well, golly gee, you did great and better than I expected Cubbies. Whatever. I want more from her and anyone running for Pres or VP. come on! stop giving her credit for not tanking - that's lame. give her credit for doing well. (which I don't think you can unless you say she did better than the Cubs did.)

Wilson said...

Good points Nate..

She surpassed expectations, and everyone knew she would. She didn't make any huge mistakes, but still made a few medium ones.
She came across as someone that didn't understand the English language or some of the more common phrase. I don’t think she knew what, “past is prologue” meant. I don’t think she knew the definitions of some of the words she used because they really seemed out of place in the sentence she was repeating.
She got every talking point in and she didn’t care if it was out of context or had no relation to the questions being asked. She knew she was overloading on coming up with the answers and I think that’s why she said she wasn’t going to answer the questions as they expected. It was a way to cover her ass on completely going in a tangent with an answer.
It’s surprising to see some of the quick poll numbers come back and say she seems to know the topics. I think one of the polls came back with 64% while Biden came back with 98%. But I’m scared to think that 68% of the responded actually thought those were her answers and that she knew the topics.
That’s what is baffling me. Either these people were already voting for her and just said they were undecided or they are just as dumb as she is. If the second, then I have to agree with Bill Mahr that most Americans are very stupid.

Wilson said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Trevor said...

Palin will not have a leg up on Jindal in the 2012 primaries, IMHO.

Assuming we're still talking about 2012, being on a losing ticket will be too severe a drag for Palin.

Other than name recognition, all of the positives for the right that Palin has, Jindal has to an even greater degree, unless he gets into a major scandal. He'll only be 41, but he'll have more gubernatorial experience, and more post-undergrad experience in general than Palin has now (she finished undergrad at 24, he at 20 from an Ivy then became a Rhodes Scholar.)

DCM in FL said...

RODNEY

take your spam posting [again] and get lost you troll...

Uma said...

Palin showed that she was not a disaster. She helped the McCain ticket, if only by stopping the bleeding that has been going on in that campaign.

Biden showed that he was a genuine person. He made the team Obama-Biden look classy and presidential. He helped the ticket by consolidating independent support that already exists.

The moment I liked the most in the entire debate was the Jesse Helms thing.

oct said...

Maverick, lipstick, Drill Baby Drill, Gee Wizz, Golly, 6-pack Joe, Hockey Mom,

We need a politiwiki to redefine all the new Republicanisms this year. I cant keep up.

PorridgeGun said...

50/50 Biden = Obama '08 Biden/Joe Biden (in his own words, talking directly to HIS people)



Joe Biden (in his own word) WON the night. It was a triumph for him persoanlly, not the Obama campaign. David Gergen even said it was a debate peformance of a life-time.




Also, I thik this pundit reaction summed it up:

In contrast, Sen. Joe Biden got stronger as the debate went on. He showed he has the best debating skills on either ticket. He was particularly strong in defending Sen. Barack Obama and strapping Sen. John McCain tightly to President Bush. Biden handily won this debate.

Drew said...

"Snarky" is the word that comes to mind to me to describe Palin's attitude. I really can't stand it.
Let me add... especially coming from someone who has shown a staggering level of ignorance since arriving on the scene.

Kevin said...

Nate, when Biden choked up, I choked up with him as I felt the genuine emotion from him. I was rather turned off and furious at Palin for continuing to attack at a moment when the entire room was somber. It is obvious that this woman is scripted and only cares about ambition. Would it have hurt her to flip the script, walk over to Joe and pat him on the back while saying "I'm sorry for your loss"? That would have won her more points. Instead she chose to be like McCain and attack the man.

Mason said...

moderators need to be more pressing and demand answers, no more pussy footing around...

THEY CAN'T. They're MODERATORS. They're sole role is to run the "debate" according to the rules that the agreed upon rules. She did that. Blame the candidates for agreeing to/demanding such stupid rules, but it's not the moderator's fault. Furthermore, if the candidate refuses to answer the question posed to them, it reflects badly on the candidate.

Vote said...

Checkout my piece on Youth Voter Registration. For every 100 registered voters aged 18-24, the democrats accrue a 9 vote advantage.

John M. said...

Palin didn't collapse, but imo (and the polls back me up) undecideds who were concerned about her going into the debate aren't going to be exactly reassured. Is she really not going to do any more TV interviews until the election now? I would think the media is going to pick that ball right back up and start running with it again in 5-7 days if they don't get anything from the McCain campaign. She needs a couple more passable interviews or we're going to see a lot of Katie Couric for the next month.

Biden was quite solid. Not much to say there, but undecideds seemed to find him reassuring. McCain is definitely losing the battle over which ticket is riskier at this point. Not sure how he can switch this up. Going angry negative won't help. Probably can't come away with a decisive win in the next two debates (knock on wood).

Roger said...

Anyone notice how her entire night was a series of 5-word phrases, only loosely jointed together. Kinda robotic, even her cutesiness seemed pre-programmed. I think she was just jammed full of talking points and you could see her eyes spinning trying to access the proper file.

I hope everyone watching CNN noticed the down-tick in the response-meters every time she got cutesy/folksy. People are SICK of this silliness.

Everyone is talking about Palin (and, yes, she exceeded the subterranean expectations after the Couric interviews--which may have been a deliberate "dive" on her part). But Joe Biden did about as good a job as he possibly could have done. Think back to all the fears everyone had about him acting Rat-packy patronizing, or attacking. He kept his eye on the ball: he had to attack McCain, NOT Palin. Excellent work.

David Fox said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Bruce said...

I disagree that Palin proved coherent -- if you look at the transcript, specifically, very few of her sentences were actually grammatically correct ignoring her dialectic preferences.

This IS her problem. This is why her interview with Couric was bad (combined with the fact that she avoided answering the questions, which was on full display tonight).

I am sorry, but the only way she wins is if you are only looking for references to Joe Sixpack.

DCM in FL said...

OCT

some that you left out:

ruffled feathers, FEAR [repeated numerous times in the early going]. 'you betcha', darn right it was the predatory lenders, old politics as usual, reformer, Joe 6pack, hockey moms like me [gag], shake things up in DC, and MAVERICK, MAVERICK, MAVERICK... ad nauseum

and she tried to sell that 'fundamentals of the economy are strong' was about the USA work force...

right, and I got a Bridge to Nowhere for sale real cheap!!

Jen said...

I think Biden reinforced the idea that the ticket with the grown ups on it is Obama/Biden. Between McCain looking like he was struggling with containing his anger and Palin breaking out in Rummy-speak (I thought we were done with that), it is clear that there is some serious crazy on the Repub ticket this year.

Roger said...

One of my favorite moments was when Palin, trying to demonstrate the cross-partisan support for McCain, rattled off half the speakers at the Repub Convention--ok, Lieberman at least USED to be a Democrat, but Romney, Giuliani, etc.???

She might as well argue there is diversity of support for her because all the males and females in her family back her!

PorridgeGun said...

BTW, these first two debates were far better than 4 years ago. Bush pulled a bunch of silly faces. Kerry just had to look normal and give concise answers. As a result, he closed the gap overnight. That was the story.

Cheney vs. Edawrds was fascinating, but the questions were shitty, and we were dinied a classic moment in debate history when Edwards failed to call Cheney a lar to his face for claiming he'd never met Edwards before that night. That could've, and should've, became more famous than "You're no Jack Kennedy".




My point is, lay off the "boring" tag. Despite the restrictions, these debates have been pretty good.

Fatih said...

Two things.

1. Is it possible that people get spin resistent, after so much televised presidential debates in nearly 50 years. Everytime it's the same arguments, who exceeded expactations, who looked better into the camera, etc. What I'm trying to say is, that maybe people look at these things and remain neutral, because they know that the debaters get coached and therefor look at the debates like theater acts and get ultimately focused on the issues.

2. The republicans screwed up big by not approving the bailout bill on monday . News cycles tomorrow will be dominated by the house vote on the bailout bill, thus every possible impact of Palin's performance won't get noticed very much and mory importantly the economy will stay in the focus.

Arif said...

Several thoughts as a first time contributor:

1. I think Biden had two defining moments of the debate: the first, and most obvious is him choking up over the tougher periods in his life, most notably his son--all indicators indicated that this was a big ethos point for him. Second, and I think this is important, his knockout response to the maverick trend. From the indicators that I've seen, many people are annoyed or sick of the "maverick" comments, and were very responsive to the maverick argument that Biden made.

2. I don't think Palin had any positive defining moments, which I think is fine for her. Her talking points, while in my opinion vacuous, score well among the base, which is the best she can hope for. While she may no longer be able to provide a good alternative to annoyed Hillary voters, she can still perform a vital function of getting the base to turn out, getting the base to provide funds, and getting the base to volunteer. I don't think there's a question of her accomplishing this function.

3. Palin seemed very callous in response to Biden's commentary about what it's like being a single father, etc. and jumped right into another talking point. I don't know about other people, but this jarred me. In post-debate media scramble, I imagine that this will be referenced quite a bit, if not jumped upon. Many people mention that her expansion of VP powers might be a big deal, but I honestly don't think so. Yes, Cheney has awful ratings, and yes, his powers have expanded unfavorably according to most Americans--but most people don't care enough to make this a part of their media consumption or voting criteria.

4. I agree with a post above that indicates that this might be one of the swan song performances from Palin in front of a national crowd. She'll be used to campaign--which she can do well--and won't really perform that many interviews. My guess is one more interview, and that interview will be on Fox News--this isn't a personal bias thing, but she just performs better on the types of questions that the McCain campaign can negotiate her into having on Fox News than it seems anywhere else.

5. I think this performance really solidifed Democratic confidence, which ultimately is probably all the debates can do. This sort of confidence has historically been important; it gets people to dig into conversations around the water cooler, donate more money, get more people to volunteer, and turn out higher votes.

6. As someone involved in academic debate for 7 years, I personally think that Biden won for a couple of reasons: first, his responses on issues were much more substantive and informed. Second, Palin's responses were most of the time off-topic and generally nonresponsive to either the moderator's of Biden's points. Third, Biden did the right thing and attack McCain instead of Palin, because that is ultimately what the election is about--this debate might have reduced independent and moderate perceptions of McCain because there were no defenses of it.

7. From an Aristotelian perspective, Biden won: No one can deny that his logos was simply better. He presented evidence, current information, historical information, statistics and made clear logical points. Biden's one ethos-centric moment comes off as more genuine and important than any of Palin's rural charm, and I suspect SNL will have something to say about this. And Biden simply had more Pathos: he sounded confident, he looked like and sounded like an authority, while Palin looked nervous and never delved into specifics.

8. This was the best format for Palin and perhaps a poor one for Biden: Shorter speech times, abbreviated (or in some cases no) responses and response times, podiums further apart to diminish the vigor to which Biden debates (which generally did not come across today), and no follow-up questions. The GOP are good at negotiating debates and interviews.

Finally, Nate: can you mark the top banner as an advertisement clearly? I know it is, and I don't expect you to filter it out, as it isn't misleading, but it would overall be better if you did. You do that on other places on the site.

EmonOkari said...

I think Biden reinforced the idea that the ticket with the grown ups on it is Obama/Biden.

Agreed, a MAJORITY of seniors that I spoke with this week in Central Florida believe McCain is now the 'riskier' choice. The term 'Maverick' is starting to sound 'Scary'. If McCain is beginning to lose SENIORS...its gonna be tough for him to win.

Scott Soriano said...

I think you are right in that the Palin chapter is over. She will be used to "turn out the base" but kept away from questioning media.

However now that the Alaska Supreme Court has given the Troopergate investigation the go, she has a bigger and perhaps more important fight, that of her Alaska political career. If that investigation comes out bad for her, she will face a recall. Given that she's never had a difficult election in Alaska, who knows what will happen when she faces an energized opposition.

kth said...

I agree that Palin was a lot less aggressive than the pre-debate hype had prepared us for. But I think that might have been an audible called at the line, rather than the play that the coaches sent in. Palin may have been trying more to salvage her own future viability than McCain's present, and may have been unwilling to assume inordinate risks in what she may see as a doomed effort.

PorridgeGun said...

Jen said...

I think Biden reinforced the idea that the ticket with the grown ups on it is Obama/Biden. Between McCain looking like he was struggling with containing his anger and Palin breaking out in Rummy-speak (I thought we were done with that), it is clear that there is some serious crazy on the Repub ticket this year.



It's been reinforced to a ridiclous degree by the antics of McCain and Palin. The camapign they've run would, in any other country, set their political party back decades. I'm not kiddin'.

Jen said...

kth-

Interesting point. She definitely does not seem to be a person "to take one for the team."

Frank said...

I agree with EmonOkari and others that a lot of people are having negative reactions to the "shoot from the hip" actions of McCain and using the Maverick label just reinforces that. It started out as a positive but the whole suspending his campaign debacle creates a second, negative connotation to Maverick.

I keep looking at McCain and remembering Ross Perot. He had some good points but was just so unpredictable on other issues you could not trust him with the job.

Ryne said...

MSNBC's crowd shots always liven up the pre- and post-debate nonsense.

Nothing beats the "Nixon's Head '08" sign. Arrroooo!

Mr. MacGregor said...

I would describe Palin's speaking style as a verbal lobotomy. I felt like my brains were getting suck out through my nose every time she talked. She strung together vituperative hatred and vapid homilies like the world's most disingenuous Beatnik.

thisniss said...

Palin only did "better than expected" because in a 90-minute onslaught we didn't have time to register just how crazy she was. It's like a shock reaction; your body shuts down your pain receptors so they don't overload. That's what watching the first 1/3- 1/2 of the debate was like for me. She was so frenetic that my adrenaline levels rose, and I couldn't really track what she was saying but the fact that she kept going made it seem like she was "doing okay."

Now that I've had some time to go back and look at a few of the answers that stood out as particularly "huh?"-raising even when she was "doing better than expected," I am convinced that Palin's debate performance is actually not that much better than her recent interviews. The primary differences are 1) she can get angry when she doesn't have an answer, and the "debate" format helps to cover that, and 2) the format itself helps cover her "Putin rears his head" answers, because it obscures one super-crazy answer with a marginally competent one.

If you took this debate and split it into multiple segments viewed over a long period of time (so that the "dosage" more closely matched the Couric and Gibson interviews), I think you might find more "big crazy" in the answers, and come away with a less positive overall impression. There were certainly some answers that rivaled "Putin's head" or "Bush doctrine" for their revelation into Palin's lack of depth. The "Be all, End All" Nucular bit seemed like one of these. The McClellan bit resembled her embrace of Hamas or her lack of Supreme Court knowledge; not so much because she got the name wrong, but because she echoed the talking point multiple times, mispronouncing his name each time, while growing increasingly proud of herself for having "gotten it right." The "white flag of surrender" line - a groaner in and of itself - was clearly proceeded by one of her painful "moose in the headlights" pauses.

But the most cringe-worthy "Couric" section, I thought, I was the part where she told Biden that his wife will get her "reward is in heaven," and then proceeded to give a "shout out" to the kids in Alaska. Yipes!

So, again, I think that the "she did better than expected" has everything to do with the pacing, and the lack of editing, of the event itself. She was able to keep going, and every semi-competent answer helped overshadow the super-nutso remark that we hadn't quite processed her having made three questions before. As the shock reaction wears off, and people have time to review the vids/transcripts, I do wonder if the "better than expected" reviews might, too. There is definitely YouTube fodder here, if nothing else.

Pat Kight said...

Nate, you might want to remove this comment:

stive said...

Palin thinks that she lost the VP debate.
Smottret this interview here: [link redacted]
October 2, 2008 11:46 PM


... which leads to site just *loaded* with malware disguised as an "update your ActiveX to watch this video" link.

(Back to catching up on post-debate analysis after an hour spent removing a trojan from my computer ... and really annoyed with myself for falling for it. Fuckers.)

Jackie said...

//She was so frenetic that my adrenaline levels rose

No kidding. I started wondering whether she was on meth in addition to her bad case of nerves.

David said...
This post has been removed by the author.
David said...

pat kight,

There is an easy fix to that. If you had used Firefox, the activeX crap wouldn't have installed and in fact, Firefox gives a warning about that page.

Stop using IE and your online security will improve faster than Obama's numbers.

Of course, I do all my work and surf in Firefox running on Linux, so I can go to these evil sights that plant trojans without fear.

Windows + IE = McShame/Caribou Barbie

walisi said...

Here's another focus group (done by Nielsen and CBS with 75 people in Las Vegas) where Biden seemed to win the debate.

"Armed with a digital dialer, the uncommitted voters unleashed their opinions second by second.

They told what they liked, "The middle class needs relief, tax relief. They need it now. They need help now," said Senator Joseph Biden. And the lines that didn't work, at least for this group, "Everyday American people, Joe six pack, hockey moms across the nation, I think we need to band together and say never again," said Governor Sarah Palin.

While uncommitted, the group leaned toward the Obama-Biden ticket, and a trend quickly emerged. Voters thought Governor Palin performed well, but not enough to win the debate, even for those who usually go for the GOP.

"In all honesty, I would probably vote for Obama and Biden," said Charlie Faulkner. "I'm usually Republican and conservative."

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=9117300

No malware---I promise :)

beingajoe said...

It was pretty obvious to me that Biden has much more gravitas and prepared for the Whitehouse. It was irresponsible of McCain to select Sarah Palin.

www.palinspin.com Sarah Palin Joe Biden CNN Debate Coverage
www.obamamate.com crowd powered news for the Barack Obama nation

Marc said...

Ah, Sarah, you achieved the real goal of this event for the Republican ticket: The bleeding from a major artery was partly staunched (at least at a 'nucular' level).

Way to grab for the brass ring (er, uh, "cheaply made plastic ring flavored with melamine to disguise the lowered substance content").

Wink, wink! Now get out there and do some off the cuff interviews. Show us what you're really made of!

Darío said...

Biden won?

cora said...

It's not just about an election. There is something more going on here, time will tell us. I think, this time, people are not looking for debate winners but just want to be reassured over Obama. We are watching the total collapse of the GOP. It is happening in a sudden and unprecedented way.

Rudy said...

Don't think the VP debate matters very much, but it was clear that the CBS "undecideds" were stacked for Biden, which is why they were such an outlier relative to the others' reaction to the debate.

That was clearly evidenced by one of CBS' dial-twister segments showing Biden's trend going steadily up while he was talking, then dropping off a cliff when he was done before Palin uttered a sentence. Very transparent.

Will be interesting to see how Biden's many debate lies and half-truths will be covered in the post-mortems.

xian said...

When she said that McCain had diverse support from a wide spectrum of people and then named Lieberman, Giuliani, and Romney, I think she was trying to say that Jews, gender-transgressive cosmpolitan ethnic Catholics, and Mormons.

fred said...

Here is McCain's strategy:

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=BF4029A0-18FE-70B2-A8E420D9A7531FAB

Seems like a very optimistic read of the polling, looking at the polling in the states they say they need makes it hard to imagine an Obama loss.

fred said...

rudy-

You are an idiot, they reset the counter between candidates. Is this the best lie the right has this morning?

beehive maiden said...

Totally off topic but I heard a report that after the birth of one of her children (forget which one), Palin went back to work the NEXT DAY. I'm sorry but that is simply not a maternal woman. And her politics show it. She can claim to be a "mom" all she wants but her actions speak louder than words.

Signed,
A Woman

Meweb said...

First of all, congrats,Nate, again, cause MSNBC commented first and foremost about your work on this website.
Secondly: Palin's "You betcha!" and "We are Mavericks" is very annoying,and if I ever hear the word maverick again, I'm going to scream. Funny that they would compare themselves to a once popular cigarette brand.

BillyJoeJimBob said...

What debate did you all watch? Biden stumbled, was tired, the botox hadn't worn off, and dragged at times. Palin may have missed a name or two but for all the points that she was supposedly weak in and as bad of a pick as some would want us to think, she did pretty darn good. I've had enough winks but she clearly was better than Biden last night.

jdk said...

Is there a body of research about mimicry of subordinates and principles.

Is McCain's weird phoney grin and wink being mimicked by Palin or is it the other way around?

The Raj Man said...

This is nuts...the "debate" wasn't even close! Biden clearly knew something more than an inch deep on every issue. Don't know about you, but that's what I'm hoping for in my leaders.

bpk411 said...

Also, it's a bit grating to hear Palin's every sentence begin and end with the same word also.

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

Any polls coming out today?

Jonathan Friedman said...

I thought Palin treated Ifill with incredible disrespect, and, as a result, insulted the intelligence of all of us. She came right out and said, I don't care what you ask, I'm going to tell you what I want to say. A debate is not a campaign rally. This is supposed to be a forum where important questions get answered. Biden answered sometimes, but Palin never did and, in fact, acted as though it was her prerogative.

Nam Vet Joe From Jersey said...

Can someone wake Nate up so we can get some new poll info--hearing about a poll showing McCain up in Virginia

fred said...

FiveThirtyEight.com :Obama 331, McCain 207

Electoral-Vote.com : Obama 338, McCain 185, Tossup 15

Princeton Election Consortium : Obama 349, McCain 189

Real Clear Politics : Obama 260, McCain 163, Toss Ups 115 | No Toss Ups: Obama 355, McCain 185

Pollster.com : Obama 250, McCain 163, Toss Ups 125

Karl Rove : Obama 259, McCain 163, Toss Ups 116

Marc Ambinder : Obama 212, McCain 185, Toss Ups 141


from electoralmaps.com

CNN : Obama 250, McCain 189, Toss Ups 99

Kket said...

With her dopey grins, grimaces, etc., I thought she looked like a wind-up Barbie Doll on speed.

Very weird and 100% un-presidential....

Hayford Peirce said...

kket is right -- she looked like a blow-up sex doll to me, although I've never seen one with so many clothes on.

Rafael said...

I want a Trailblazer, not a maverick.

I am struggling with the fact that what I thought was a caricature of Sarah Palin by Tina Fey, really isn't anything more than an impersonation. That's scary. How can anyone consider her as a worthy candidate? I have become so moved by this that I am now, for the first time ever, donating to a political campaign. Obama must win.

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徵信社robin said...

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平平 said...

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平平 said...

^^ very nice

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