10.26.2008

A Pollster Responds

Bernood Yost, the director of Franklin & Marshall College's Floyd Institute for Public Policy, whose poll I flagged a couple of days ago as having a potentially suspect likely voter model, wrote me a kind note a couple of days ago explaining his process; it is reproduced in full below.

I’m writing to respond to your post about likely voter models. I am not going to quibble about with your assessment of likely voter modeling; in fact, the title of your article should probably be, All Likely Voter Models are Suspect. Most pollsters have built their models through careful study by focusing on both intentions and past behaviors, which has worked well in the past. But in 2008 we are all concerned about how all of the new voters, who will likely be disproportionately young and minority voters favoring Senator Obama, will affect those models. No one knows for sure and this requires everyone to make untested assumptions about what is going to happen.

The piece of data we looked at closely in our survey to corroborate our model was a question about whether the respondent had already voted. Seven percent of our sample reported they had already cast a ballot and Obama’s lead over McCain was 46 percent to 41 percent among these early voters—five points. Those who reported voting early in our sample were more likely to be over 55 years of age (53%), male (53%), and non-Hispanic whites (75%). The same proportion of Democrats and Republicans (40% each) reported early voting in our sample.
See, this is all I'm asking for -- evidence that the pollster has thought about what they are doing, rather than simply acting reflexively. We might disagree about certain things (in this case, the predictive value of a very small sample of early voters), but that's all in the spirit of a good discussion.

By contrast, you probably aren't likely to see John Zogby offer a coherent explanation of why he his poll contains as many Republicans as Democrats in a political environment where Democrats have a 10-point generic ballot advantage.

418 comments

syrion said...

I'm waiting for the Nate vs. Zogby cage match the day after the election.

Jason said...

Let me be the first to say, suspect likely voter models are GREAT NEWS!!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!!!!

Cubicle Boy said...

And interesting (and good news for me anyway) that they got O+5 with voters who have already voted with a population that would historically vote Republican (older, male, white, same number of Dems and Repubs).

jsh1120 said...

Thanks for the update, Nate. It's no accident, I think, that an academic polling organization is prepared to explain its likely voter model and open a discussion of its validity.

And kudos on the continuing exposure of Zogby. There is simply no other pollster who so damages the reputation of the profession.

brokejumper said...

This is also why having RCP try to cook the books a few weeks back was so obvious. It is not like the decisions that go into creating a likely voter model or a standard method for constructing a polling average are a big secret.

If you are not willing to expose your choices to the hash glare of the public, why shouldn't we just assume you are doing so for nefarious reasons or outright incompetence?

Joe the Old Guy said...

I appreciate the civility of this post. You set a positive example for all of us - partisans and non-partisans alike. Thanks!

Real Joe said...



Hillary Clinton making 3 stops in NH on Tuesday

Shawn said...

Rasmussen's New Hampshire Numbers Yesterday made me nervous for my home state. This one makes me feel better - but this ain't right either.

New Hampshire - Boston Globe/UNH
Obama - 54
McCain - 39

linux said...

I agree with Nate... it is wonderful getting honest, rational thought (actually anytime not just with polls). This discourse will help establish better models for future use. Learning is a GOOD thing.

The Game said...

Moving to this thread:
Could McCain lose his home state? Looks like word will be getting around that Obama is closing the gap in AZ:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081026/pl_politico/14942;_ylt=ApNs.sLxPnbVCDfIKegmDbpsnwcF

Blue in PA said...

His name is Berwood Yost (with a w) and knows his stuff. I'm not surprised that 1) he took Nate's question seriously and 2) he sent a thoughtful reply. I've worked with Berwood on other projects and (not political polling but other opinion/survey stuff) and he is a true professional.

Real Joe said...



Another Conservative Endorses Obama

Link

LAT said...

sorry off topic but if anyone is watching MTP can you gives us the goodies?

CoreyB8421 said...

It seems like his sample of early voters is a bit skewed compared to data from GA and NC. Do we know what other states would have significant early voting that would skew that result?

livemild said...

on the last post someone whop was polled said they mentioned mccain first on voter preference for pres.

last week when i was polled i was asked with obama first.

how much weight does HOW a question is phrased get? i dont here that mentioned here much

seems to me if i wanted an obama slant i would mention obama first and vice versa

Aidan MT4 said...

I posted this on the previous thread, but thought Nate might be interested since he usually reads only the first few posts:

Expect a Rasmussen poll of AZ in the near future, perhaps today. Yesterday I was polled for the first time in my life. I'm a cell-phone-only user.

The automated voice was a businesslike broadcast-middle-American female voice.

The first question was how favorably do you view Pres. Bush, very favorably to very unfavorably.

The second question was the same but for Gov. Janet Napolitano.

Then they asked questions about your likelihood of voting: do you vote in elections? how likely are you to vote?

At that point they asked the general election question: are you voting for McCain or Obama? (McCain was always mentioned first, if I remember correctly.) Then the favorability question about McCain and Obama.

The "What issue is most important to you" question came next, and was interesting. They divided it into four categories, foreign, economic, domestic, and social, giving examples of each (Iraq, jobs, health care, gay marriage).
You picked one of the four categories.

Last section was your demographics: sex, race, income, and how you describe your politics (very liberal to very conservative). (For several reasons I hesitated over the last one before pressing "very liberal." Like everyone, I consider myself more nuanced in my positions, and have a natural inclination to fiscal conservatism: I can't stand people/organizations that waste money. Also, knowing Rass's Republican lean, I thought that if I pressed "very liberal" my vote might be weighted slightly lower or even thrown out altogether. But finally, I thought, fuck it, I've always hated the successful demonization of the liberal tag by conservatives, so I'll just proudly assert my liberalism.)

What I especially liked about the poll was that, as soon as you pressed a button for your choice, the poll went on to the next question: no waiting as you heard all the options. In all, I was impressed by the poll's professionalism, including the fact that they forced you to make clearcut answers, and can see why Nate ranks Rass so highly, despite his GOP tilt. People still complain about automated polling, but I can tell you that I personally think this poll felt more objective than a live human would have been.

Two notes: My cell phone number was originally a land line and changed in the last year. The four issues examples were just a few of the two or three the narrator gave in each category.

Jason said...

In all seriousness, though, F&M's Yost just says that the breakdown of the early voters is used "to corroborate [their] model". Surely no one thinks that 53% of the electorate will be over 55 years old or that an equal number of Democrats and Republicans will vote. Yet F&M has used these way-off-base internal composition numbers as the sole determinant for their LV model, without any argument as to why voting early is perfectly correlated with voting eventually.

Kudos, though, to F&M for responding to Nate's challenge. Those of us who support Obama can now ignore polls with suspect RV-LV discrepancies with greater, more informed comfort.

Shawn said...

Real Joe got this in at the end of the last thread.

Virginia - PPP(D)
Obama - 52
McCain - 43

livemild said...

sorry hear instead of here

The Game said...

@lat

I just watched it and IMO, Brokaw tore him up pretty good. He used his own words against him about opposing the Bush tax cuts and saying that once you reach a "comfortable level" you should pay more. He really looked like he was squirming a lot and I really can't say he made much of a great case for himself vs. Obama.

Kelly said...

I just watched the last few minutes of MTP interview...

Palin has more executive exp. than Biden/Obama

McCain's going to win, but doesn't really explain how and in what states

41 years to the day that McCain was shot down over Hanoi

They talked about Powell and the fact that McCain has other SOS endorsements....yada, yada, yada

McCain looked and sounded bad.

Badgerhair said...

One of the fun things about the likely voter models is that data from this election is unlikely to be much help when constructing the LVM for the next election.

Even assuming Obama wins this one and runs again in 2012, the probability is that there will be nowhere near the same level of enthusiasm to vote for him. He won't be the first serious black candidate for Pres, he won't be offering change unless he decides to run against himself, he's bound to piss some people off during his first term, and the reality of office will reduce the Messiah effect which is clearly in play this time round.

justsomeguy said...

Zogby would lose any cage match, he clearly does not understand strategy. What pollster would put his reputation out here on daily number changes and small sample sizes?

NoVa Commie said...

McCain's makeup is better today. Opened by saying he's doing fine, don't believe the polls. No news (I've actually finally put TV on mute 6 minutes in)


he's got us right where he wants us.

justsomeguy said...

McCain was not a game changeron MTP. He did fine, but changed few minds. He needs to change minds, change at the margin won't do it for him.

The Game said...

Just said that latest Mason-Dixon poll has McLame only up 6 in GA

mc9cain said...

Perhaps next Sunday Brokaw will have Obama on for equal time? Or maybe Brokaw agreed to do this for McCain since he couldn't afford to pay for his own 1/2 hour.

Shawn said...

Come on Arizona

Arizona - Meyers/Grove
Obama - 40
McCain - 44
Nader - 3
Barr - 2

Lots of undecideds!

Kid G said...

So a poll with a majority males (when historically women turn out at about 53% of the electorate), non-hispanic whites, and over 55 year-olds favors Obama by 5 points?

LANDSLIDE, EARTHQUAKE, WATERSHED EVENT, anything else I missed?

The Game said...

MO is still a dead heat according to Todd

Congratulations to President-Elect McCain!!! said...

Being a DIVA is EXCELLENT NEWS!!! For John McCain!!!

Shawn said...

On the Arizona poll - I took my numbers from Pollster.

justsomeguy said...

MO is very conservative outside of the city of Sain Louis. Even Kansas City is red. To win MO as a black man would truly be a watershed event.

Rick said...

McCain is hanging his hopes on Zogby polls. Now we can fully understand the causes for why he is in Iowa. He doesn't agree with any polls that show news he doesn't like.

Kid G said...

The Game said...

MO is still a dead heat according to Todd


Well yeah, he's been reading this blog, too!

Sedi said...

Three cheers for openness from pollsters. I'm with Nate 100% on this one: if they make their assumptions public we can judge them on the merits. Without such information, it's like pollsters are replacing our judgment with theirs.

"sorry off topic but if anyone is watching MTP can you gives us the goodies?"

McCain was his typical self and gave precisely the sort of performance that I would have expected. If you like him you probably thought he did well, if you don't you probably thought he was weak. The one noticeable hiccup was when he twice couldn't remember the 5th Secretary of State who had endorsed him, though he named the other four. He finally remembered after the next question began: it was George Schultz. This only really matters to voters who are already concerned about McCain's age.

The discussion afterwords (with Chuck Todd, Kelly O'Donnell, and Charlie Cook) was fascinating. When asked what he would be worried about in the poll numbers if he was in the Obama camp, Charlie Cook said he would worry because everything seems too good for Obama. Basically, he argued that there is nothing for Obama to worry about. When pressed to give a Senate prediction, he guessed at 59 for the Dems, though he understandably wasn't too confident about that number.

The Game said...

Awesome, they just flipped VA and CO to lean Obama giving him 286 EV!

LAT said...

thanks so much the game and kelly for the info. my cable is out so no mtp for me.

Real Joe said...

the game said...
Awesome, they just flipped VA and CO to lean Obama giving him 286 EV!



who ??

eve said...

livemild said...
"how much weight does HOW a question is phrased get? i dont here that mentioned here much"

Some pollsters think it matters. Some pollsters will ask half respondents a question with McCain first and half with Obama first.

Maybe all of them do that. I don't know. But on pollingreport.com that have the questions and often will say the names mentioned are rotated for order.

markymark said...

First

(Sorry noone had said it and it was like 31 comments in!)

I think its interesting that pollsters all seem concerned about the likelihood of higher youth and AA voters. I think likely voter models are fine, accept that they are the least likely models to pick up unusual traits, and unusual traits are whats been firing this election all year.

The Game said...

NBC just did it officially on MTP Joe

Real Joe said...



Richmond Times-Dispatch endorses McCain

Leigh said...

thanx. this is all very interesting. i appreciate the openness of this pollster.

@ Kid G......i hope you're right.

The Game said...

Kelly O'Donnell trying to argue the McCain argument that you have to look at NH and saying they still have a shot at Hillary voters in PA LOL...nice try by her

pygmy_owl said...

Nice post on the LV scenarios. Hard to say what'll turn out to be correct. My sense is that we should just be conservative about it and lean into the LV numbers from years past. Since those are showing significant turnout for Obama, anything else is just icing on the cake. I think nothing is sewn up, but it would be some mighty tasty icing.

As for early voters: I simply fail to see what we can gather from the early voting information. Even though things look good with those older white male voters 5 points up for Obama, I think we may only be measuring enthusiasm or availability. I'd be cautious about misinterpretation.

markymark said...

Headlines on MSNBC.coms video for each segment of McCain are 'I am not George Bush', 'McCain on economic turmoil, Obama's plan' and 'Palin needs no defense' doesn't sound like he talked about too much that he hasnt been hammering for a while now. Will watch the netcast when it is up later in the day.

newsinOH said...

MTP is still on here. Brokaw is much tougher on Mc than I expected. Kind of shocked, actually.

Kid G said...

Real Joe said...

Richmond Times-Dispatch endorses McCain


Just to give you an idea of its leanings, this is from its Wiki entry:
"During the 2004 U.S. presidential campaign, its Commentary sections featured some pieces by Retired Admiral Roy Hoffmann, a founding member of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and resident of Richmond suburb Chesterfield, against Democratic candidate John Kerry."

'nuff said

samule said...

sorry to bother those who'll think I shouldn't spread this s*** but I thought it to be funny to see that the "confused conspirationists" are at it again:

This paper is showing such liberal bias it is not funny. And yes the definition of socialism fits NOBAMA to a ‘T’. Spreading the wealth IS socialistic. I have to tell you about an ‘underground poll conspiracy’ which is sweeping the country. The democratic national committee is making phone calls and using the information they gather in polls to show exactly where Mr. NOBAMA stands. The funny thing is, when they call…..especially people as myself, we are lying about who we will vote for. We tell them we will give our support to NOBAMA but truthfully, it will be McCain. It’s hilariarious and I for ONE cannot wait until election day. VOTE BABY VOTE!!

livemild said...

thanks eve.

The Game said...

@newsinoh

I was pleasantly surprised as well and think McLame is looking really bad and I don't think he is convincing anyone and pulling anyone to his side

LAT said...

I posted this on the last thread but it is relevant to the question of how pollsters frame questions.

Social Scientist who do surveys are always very very careful not to frame the question in such a way that gives a hint of the preferred answer to the person being interviewed. This is why I was so surprised to head from Aidan that when he was asked in his poll about what issues were important to him they specifically spelled out what constituted an economic issue, a social issue or a foreign policy issue. If the examples chosen are explosive or frame a certain world view than you already are given an idea of how to answer. It is very tricky this is why i always think Rass is always up to something because his questions are verging on push poll for me (in my experience as a survey maker and researcher)

oddman said...

"over 55 years of age (53%), male (53%), and non-Hispanic whites (75%)."

Aren't these the voters taht are supposed to go for McCain in large numbers? Yet Obama is still winning.

Marie said...

Love your blog, Nate, and articles like this one underscore the reason why. Thanks for your service.

DoctorMcLovin said...

After the election, once you have caught up on your sleep, I would love to see an analysis of the likely voter models and which approach proved to be the most accurate. Perhaps this could discuss approaches to validating these models "in real time" before the election. You are in an excellent, even unique, position to crunch the numbers, provide a thoughtful analysis, and engage thoughtful pollsters in public dialogue. Thanks for everything you do.

newsinOH said...

Mc, after being questioned about his socialism comments, has now explained his change in position as: different times require different gov't responses. In times like these, the government has to step in to set things right.

180 much?

Even at his age, he's pretty quick with the spins.

His thinking, as reflected in the clarity of his sentences, is definitely more garbled than it has been.

TINAandRON said...

UMMM no one has raised this but the FM guy needs a remedial math class, and I cannot believe no one has caught this but the FM guy said among the people he talked to 7% have voted early and of those 46 voted for Obama and 41 for McCain. THATS ONLY 87% Morons!@@ I know some will vote for others (probably 2% in this GE) but who the hell did the other 13% vote for. Will someone please clear this up!!!!. There isn't an
"UNDECLARED/UNDECIDED" in a poll of "already voted" unless you are trying to convince me 13% either undervoted or found an alternative to either man. SHEESH

MysticLaker said...

Wow. McCain is quoting zogby on MTP...One night polling. Now we know he is unhinged.

Thank you Matt Drudge. Driving the McCain camp startegy is great news from John McCain.

mc9cain said...

"I don’t know what to think of having in my family Uncle Barney Frank or others to make decisions for me," Palin said. "I and John McCain tend to want to trust the American people with their income, their businesses, their things."

So she says "I and John McCain" (!?!?) Obama is right - we need to improve education - and have some 44 year old adults take an English class again. And pretty crass of her to label Barney Frank, a gay man, as "Uncle Barney Frank". This woman is worse than Karl Rove.

Brian said...

The Star Press (Muncie, Indiana) endorses Obama:
http://www.thestarpress.com/article/20081026/OPINION01/810260325/1014/OPINION

The Indianapolis Star refuses to endorse:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081026/OPINION08/810260331/1291/OPINION08

LAT said...

thank you news and others for keeping up to date on the MTP showdown. I really am surprised Brokaw is taking him on. He has been very very soft on him so far this election cycle.

Bobby said...

For those who genuinely do not understand the voting patterns of African Americans (AA) and think they are only voting for the Black candidate, the definitive explanation comes from the great blue state of Maryland and its 2006 open race for US Senate. Maryland is an excellent case study because it has a large AA population (about 30 %). Democrat Cardin (white) won vs Republican Steele (black). Both had excellent name recognition. Cardin (US Congressional Rep), Steele (Lieutenant Gov).

But even more pertinent is who Cardin beat in the Democratic primary… He beat Kwasi Mfume (Black). Mfume was a former US Congressional Rep and head of the NAACP. Here is the Washington Post’s endorsement of Cardin in the primary and description of Cardin/Mfume....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/20/AR2006082000512.html

Here is the irony for Sen Clinton. If the South Carolina primary had been first and Iowa 3rd she would be the Dem nominee today. In the Dem primary race, before Iowa, the polls showed she had very large support from AAs. Most AAs did not know Obama well enough and thought he would have no chance of winning. Bill Clinton was well loved by AAs. When Obama won Iowa and showed that he could command significant amounts of white voters, huge numbers of AAs started to move towards him.

Bill Clinton did not help matters in New Hampshire. Because of historical race issues in America, any candidate seeking support of large numbers of voters across race lines has to avoid falling in any of the stereotypes… or it will be very hard to win. Obama has been very successful at avoiding those pitfalls. Bill C failed by appearing to stereotypically marginalize an intelligent black candidate and thus lost his wife significant black support and doomed her candidacy.

MysticLaker said...

zogby 2X on MTP. McCain looks silly. He is arguing against health insurance for kids.

HonoreDB said...

Aidan MT4 said...
I posted this on the previous thread, but thought Nate might be interested since he usually reads only the first few posts:

Expect a Rasmussen poll of AZ in the near future, perhaps today. Yesterday I was polled for the first time in my life. I'm a cell-phone-only user.

The automated voice was a businesslike broadcast-middle-American female voice.

The first question was how favorably do you view Pres. Bush, very favorably to very unfavorably.


I'd missed this before. Thanks.

I'm a little alarmed that they asked President Bush's favorability before the horse race question. It seems like that would be likely to influence the polled away from McCain. I mean, you could put together a pretty good Obama push poll just by asking the two questions right next to each other.

boulder-liberal said...

Lat -

My favorite McCain comment from this morning on MTP was that Obama is the most liberal member of congress because he is for "sharing the wealth" and "fairness".

He actually argued against "fairness".

I don't think he swayed any independents this morning.

MysticLaker said...

zogby 3X on MTP. This is great. "We figured it out with Joe the Plumber."

Sarah Clark said...

re: MTP

I'm going from descriptions here as I missed the show, though I'll probably catch it when it reruns tonight, but...honestly, i would have had a lot more respect for McCain if he frankly admitted he was behind, and expressed what he was going to do to yank his staff out of their circular firing squad formation, come back in true swing states (as opposed to IA and PA pipe dreams) and/or help his party defend the senate.

Instead, he apparently spouted more of the same "we have them right where we want them" nonsense that even he doesn't believe (I hope!). Public displays of McCain's ostrich impression are not exactly going to lure mass quantities of voters to his side. Now, a switch to a coherent campaign strategy is probably too late at this point for a McWin (he needed it to happen during the debates at the absolute latest), but it's vital for him to get his crap together NOW if he wants to help his party defend the barricades in the Senate.

It's really sad. A Lifelong moderate Dem, I honestly can say I would have been conflicted in 2000 if McCain had been the nominee. Now he's a flailing, elderly, frightened shell of the consensus builder he once was. For his sake, I hope he does some soul searching ASAP about how best to lose with dignity. The conclusion is becoming so foregone I can finally express sympathy for the man.

Aidan MT4 said...

lat,

I posted this reply on the previous thread. Don't know if you saw it. It's related to your question about the issues examples on the Rass poll:

lat--

You could very well be right, but my personal sense is that it was a matter of efficiency related to the push-button nature of the automated call. I don't know if Rasmussen has studied the patience of callers who answer questions and then hang up when they get bored. If one were to list all the main issues and ask people to press button #5 or button #15, the call would take forever.

newsinOH said...

boulder-liberal,

and Mc's damn air quotes around "fairness" are also absurd

lots of nervous laughs, now sighs when talking about the Powell endorsement

Kid G said...

MysticLaker said...

zogby 3X on MTP. This is great. "We figured it out with Joe the Plumber."


Too right: they figured out how to get Ohio off the fence and into Obama's camp.

Justine said...

"Seven percent of our sample reported they had already cast a ballot and Obama’s lead over McCain was 46 percent to 41 percent among these early voters—five points."

So thirteen percent of people who have already turned in their ballots voted for neither Obama nor McCain? I'm finding that hard to swallow.

newsinOH said...

Actually looks like Brokaw doesn't even want Mc in the chair anymore at this point. Mc keeps trying to engage him with "humor" and Brokaw just ignores it . . .

HonoreDB said...

UMMM no one has raised this but the FM guy needs a remedial math class, and I cannot believe no one has caught this but the FM guy said among the people he talked to 7% have voted early and of those 46 voted for Obama and 41 for McCain. THATS ONLY 87% Morons!@@

Maybe 10% of them refused to say who they voted for?

MysticLaker said...

DIAGEO/HOTLINE

Obama 50
McCain 42

McCain surge...

Juris said...

TYPO: ". . . coherent explanation of why he his poll. . ."

Should omit the word "he."

The Game said...

Well final analysis IMO on MTP is that McLame didn't help himself at all and the roundtable seemed to concede that McLame is in deep trouble and it is not looking too good for him.

justsomeguy said...

justine-

The "already voted" sample in all these polls is small, and should likely be discounted accordingly.

The interesting thing is the trend between all the polls is the same, all good for BHO!

newsinOH said...

this campaign has made mc "humble"??????? his words. really??!?!?

PA John said...

I think Zogby's motives are now clear - he got mentioned 3 times on MTP... Attention whore. End of discussion.

EuropeNL said...

According to MSNBC Gallup is going to have tightening numbers today.

boulder-liberal said...

"For his sake, I hope he does some soul searching ASAP about how best to lose with dignity. The conclusion is becoming so foregone I can finally express sympathy for the man."

No sympathy from me. He has shown no dignity with his character assassinations.

The Game said...

Palin is "annoyed" at Couric

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/26/palin-annoyed-with-cbs-interviewer/

She just continues to be a disgrace...

NoVa Commie said...

newsinOH said...

this campaign has made mc "humble"??????? his words. really??!?!?

Yes. "Humble" and "grateful"...then a *very* awkward close w/Brokaw. He's not gonna change course, just hope local smear campaigns in swing states will pull it off for him.

justsomeguy said...

Just saw ads from PA TV on BHO and taxes. Both were lies, BHO needs to rerun in tax ads to counter this.

The first was a McCain campaign ad claiming all people were Joe the Plumber and Obama was going to raise taxes on all of them - this is a lie.

The second was a 427 ad - Let Freedom ring was the group - and it stated Obama would raise taxes on 100% of people as he would roll back the Bush tax cuts and raise taxes on 100% of people - this is also a lie, BHO only rolls back the Bush tax cuts on folks making over 250K.

Nosybear: said...

So, ahh, what would be wrong with just using that old statistician's friend, the random sample? It seems to me that ANY attempt to weight the sample induces bias, intended or not. Just pick a thousand registered voters and call them. Ask the "likely voter" question at that time. Want a narrower margin of error? Poll more. Basic statistics. Beats all this weighting-biasing-likely voter mumbo-jumbo.

Sarah Clark said...

boulder-liberal,

Believe me I know the sentiment, and I'm the first person to admit I'm a soft-hearted teddy bear when it comes to weak and defenseless creatures like McCain. that said, pity is all he's getting from me, and not even much of that.

LAT said...

thanks Aidan had not seen your response. Actually my point aligns with your quite nicely. If they had simple said--the economy, or terrorism, or national security or social issues that would have been enough. The fact that they went from heading and detailed what issues are important in that group is what worries me as a researcher. The 'economy' would have been enough. But if under the economy they then gave examples like--taxes being increased, spreading the wealth around, socialism (I am exaggerating here of course) then you see how they can frame the issue in a way that is very deliberate to make you give a certain answer no?

Thanks though for all the info. Great to have it.

Juris said...

Thank you, Mr. Yost.

I hope that after this election is over, some useful academic forums will be held concerning polling (and polling compilations) this year. I'm sure the APSA and AAPOR will address this in part but there should be a broader audience that focuses on both the professional pollsters, the media, and analysts (on line "popular" and academic).

Perhaps F&M would be able to host one such forum, and get C-SPAN to cover it?

The Game said...

@europenl

What was said that is giving a hint that Gallup is going to tighten today?

justsomeguy said...

nosybear-

The problem is you are not reaching all demographic groups, that said, most RV models are just that - all the data. We will see which model is best in just over a week.

Richard said...

livemild:

Order of options in a poll does have an effect on response, but most pollsters compensate for this effect by rotating the names of candidates when asking that question so that roughly the same number of people in each sample will have heard each candidate's name first. You can usually read this information in the polling details (assuming that the pollster releases his question wording, etc. -- which all pollsters should do).

MysticLaker said...

Nice use of MTP of Rush Limbaugh.

sloth said...

So they used 7% of their total samples in order to develop a model for determining how they would allocate the likely voters in their LV model, and they furthermore chose a self-selected (in effect) population for this purpose.

Does that not strike anyone else as entirely bogus? If not the self-selection, at least the sample size.

MysticLaker said...

McCain couldn't remember George' name...Kinda sad.

Juris said...

BerWood, not BerNood Yost. Please fix typo, Nate.

mc9cain said...

Seems McCain doesn't do so well with air quotes. Maybe leave those for the under 60 crowd to do? Seriously, it doesn't fit with the persona of an older gentlemen in a serious discussion.

LAT said...

sorry to be at this again but can we stop making such a big deal of the statistical noise on the trackers? every single time the numbers move on gallup or whatever people start freaking out. do we have to this every week? I know this is the last week but unless McCain is within 4 then can we just skip the hand wringing?

To my mind this is a 6-8 point race.

MysticLaker said...

OK from MTP.

M/D for Iowa: O +11
M/D for Mo: M +1

Great news, for John McCain.

mc9cain said...

MysticLaker said...
DIAGEO/HOTLINE

Obama 50
McCain 42

McCain surge...

October 26, 2008 9:58

assume this is snark as it was 50-43 yesterday

Aidan MT4 said...

lat,

Yes, I see your point. However, they did need to define their four terms: I wouldn't, in the spontaneous moment, have known the difference between "economic" and "domestic." (Health care is also economic, isn't it?) If they were trying to push-poll, perhaps that's why they chose gay marriage. On the other hand, perhaps they simply chose what were the top issues that Americans have recently expressed concern about in their own polling. Interesting that another poster pointed out that the Bush favorability question would slant the poll against McCain. (Actually the very first question they asked was whether or not you were over 18.)

Real Joe said...

mysticlaker said...
DIAGEO/HOTLINE

Obama 50
McCain 42

McCain surge...


McCain going up !!!

Lamont Cranston said...

OK, I'll bite. Why do you think Zogby oversamples Republicans, Mr. Silver? I sort of assumed that after blowing it in New Hampshire (among others),Zogby had tweaked his method to compensate. you sound as though you have a darker interpretation.

Real Joe said...



Kristol rips McCain camp, RNC for handling of Palin

MysticLaker said...

No...It's the new number:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/hotline/dailytracker/

50-24

eve said...

bobby, thanks for the great information.

MysticLaker said...

sorry 50-42...

LAT said...

Yes Aidan. I too was surprised that they did not start with the presidential right away. And I see your point it is just a very think line between framing the issues (it is republicans who think gay marriage is a crucial issue no?) and walking the line up to push polling. I am not saying Rass push polls although in his opinion polls on issues he does this, but the frame of the questions troubles me?

shadowguidex said...

Gallup +6 or 5 would be just fine. All the state polls continue to look excellent for Obama. Just need to run out the clock on this sucker and wait for inauguration day, obviously completing the hard work that we've made for the last year. Don't sweat it peeps, this thing isn't getting any closer, Obama numbers aren't falling, it's McCain's number that is fluctuating between 42 and 46. Obama stays at 50-52. This is no time to worry about a lame Zogby or Gallup poll, particularly when they both still have Obama winning by a nice margin.

justsomeguy said...

Lamont-

Nate is talking about party ID. Zogby corrects party ID to 2004 levels (50:50 for each party) whereas the dem advantage is likely 6-9 in party ID right now (see Rasmussen who does a 6 week average). Zogby is in the tank for McCain, but that is OK for him as it leads to more pub via liars like Drudge.

Antmatic said...

1. Kristol is delusional

2. Zogby is an attention whore, the way to look at trackers is to average them, there will be no change today. If McCain tries to build any momentum, remember Obama has his infomercial on Wednesday.

mc9cain said...

mystic laker,
I know it's the new number. I meant about McCain surging since he dropped down one.
:)

Naur said...

Translation of Zogby's latest statement (http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1611):

“There is no question that this poll continues to chuck shit and that our numbers screwed up again,” said Pollster John Zogby. “It after all sucks and that is how McCain tightened it up the last time. I have said over and over again, when we poll, we screw up. In today's single day of polling, we managed to fuck up the numbers by more than 4.2%...Obama has gone down from 54% to 50% to 49% and this gives an average of 49.4%? Ah fuck. Like I said, we suck. I have alluded before to this strange, magnetic sense that our polls suck...There is still a lot of polling to go. A lot of polling to go.”

MysticLaker said...

Mason-Dixon Polling & Research / NBC News
10/22-23/08; Likely voters, MoE +/- 4%
Mode: Live Telephone Interviews
(As broadcast on Meet the Press)

Iowa
Obama 51, McCain 40

Georgia
McCain 49, Obama 43

Missouri
McCain 46, Obama 45

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/masondixonnbc_ga_ia_mo_102223.php

justsomeguy said...

Anyone else listen to Zogby's Real America on XM radio? For a long time all his guests skewed republican, even insane freeper right wingers. He has gotten better lately, but Zogby and his lapdog Fritz Wentzel are biased repub. Their polls may be biased, or they may just suck. They ae so bad it is hard to tell.

The Game said...

I am looking forward to the 30 min commercial from Obama to stunt any McLame momentum that could creep up. But does anyone think that just possibly, the commercial could backfire in some way and not come across as good for Obama. I would think that is highly unlikely, but you never know...

MysticLaker said...

@the game.

No way. Everything dealing with the media has been pulled out perfectly by Obama. Doubt they will faulter now.

JohnBlade said...

I read somewhere yesterday that while early voting scews democratic, absentee voting screw republican, offsetting each other. Any validity to that?

MysticLaker said...

@john...

only florida is close right now. that's it.

Jesse Radin said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXTN3h-b9nU

Denis Leary -asshole

Basically, McCain is the "bully" and America is a nerd.

The Game said...

@mystic

Thanks for comment and I agree that things have been run perfectly. Not trying to be a concern troll at all, just hoping that there is no craziness where people think that Obama is trying too hard of a sell or something to that effect...

Paul said...

Diageo is not showing much change from yesterday - -1 for McCain

http://www.diageohotlinepoll.com/

Dr. Matt said...

This day in 2004, the electoral map was predicting Kerry 247 - Bush 285 and the actual results were Kerry 251 - Bush 286. Today, the electoral Maps put Obama at 375, 306, and 350.

Kid G said...

I just made a trip to intrade and noticed that voter turnout is predicted to be between 60 and 65% (intrade value around 86 right now). Naturally, this market is closely tied to Obama's chances on election day. The last time we saw turnout higher than 60% was in the '60's.

Historical voter turnout in nat. elections

jjamjj said...

In the UK a lot of pollsters take the approach of asking how likely the respondent is to vote on a scale of one to ten, and then only including the people who say "ten". Seems to work pretty well, no suspect weighting and they got the last election right. Are any of the US pollsters doing this?

Cugel said...

After the election there won't be the slightest doubt about which "likely voter" model was accurate!

The Republicans are already conceding and their base is profoundly depressed.

I just talked to my elderly father in Florida who is a complete ditto-head. He's convinced Obama is going to win through massive fraud!

That's the new meme going through the right wing to explain their total beating, "Obama teamed up with ACORN to steal 3 million votes through vote fraud!"

Not a shred of REAL evidence exists for this of course, but that won't stop them!

Since Conservatism can never fail or be repudiated by the American people, every defeat must be the result of "fraud!"

"Obama stole the election!"

This will be a bit harder to claim though if he wins by 8 million votes, which is entirely possible at this point!

Then I guess they'll be down to "the media was totally in the tank for Obama! That's what threw the election! The LIBRUL media!"

Kelly said...

Woman on MSNBC just said that todays Gallup is supposed to be around 5-6% for Obama. FYI....

PixelMarx said...

I'd love to see Zogby explain how a 12 point lead on Thursday drops to a five point lead on Sunday when nothing of substance happened to alter the landscape - except for Palin calling Obama now a communist dictator?

Dr. Matt said...

I just talked to my elderly father in Florida who is a complete ditto-head. He's convinced Obama is going to win through massive fraud!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course, Faux has been telling the right-wing for months that ACORN and Obama are stealing the election.

MysticLaker said...

Here's a guess Kelly
RV 50-43
LV 1 50-44
LV 2 50-45

Kid G said...

Another thing I should have noted is that the intrade value for >60% turnout was hovering around 50 until the end of September. Once early voting numbers started to come out, the market value spiked by about 20 points in the past three weeks. This suggests that turnout is surprising a lot of people, and this again portends very well for Obama

LAT said...

I am goign to be relentless about this--the movement in Gallup--please elt us stop making so much of a big deal about this. We actually do not know which model will show the numbers being thrown around. sorry but this stuff just drives me batty and this hand wringing about the national trackers. Focus on the states this is what matters this last week.

Ryan said...

I'm going from memory, but they stated the Gallup numbers for today on MSNBC earlier today, I believe they were 51-44 RV.

sfergus483 said...

Mc9ain -

Trust me, MTP would kill to have Obama on next week. If he's not there, it's his choice (and he'd be crazy to do it - why take a risk at this point?) It's not remotely a question of bias or equal time.

NoVa Commie said...

lat,
exactly - the below cartoon sums it up I think.

http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/barack-obama/23782/obama-will-win/

Off to eat breakfast at the coehop

Eric said...

oddman said...
"over 55 years of age (53%), male (53%), and non-Hispanic whites (75%)."

Aren't these the voters taht are supposed to go for McCain in large numbers? Yet Obama is still winning.


He's assuming identical numbers to 2004. You can look at early voting already done in 2008 and see a huge disrepancy. Much more women are voting early than Men. In 2004, that number was somewhat reversed. Women are more likely to be voting for Obama. This is a huge flaw with this pollster's assumptions. At least he'l admit it.

LAT said...

this i so funny now that my cable is back to working I am seeing that the new republican talking point is that Zogby is proven that McCain is surging and that this means the race is actually tied (because cali and nyc numbers do not count)

Eric said...

Ryan said...
I'm going from memory, but they stated the Gallup numbers for today on MSNBC earlier today, I believe they were 51-44 RV.

Ryan, Gallup releases their daily poll at 12:00 CST everyday. you can see it at Gallup.com or check here in comments for reported results. The number you are referring to is from yesterday.

kittles93 said...

Yeah, let's wait to see Gallup. They may be only talking about one of the likely voter models.

I expect the race to tighten from here on out. I expect in the end that Obama will win the popular vote by four to five points.

LAT said...

nova commie--thanks for that cartoon just perfect.

and sorry for all the typos in my last post.

stevieboy said...

It was very professional of Mr. Yost to respond.

However, his reasoning is somewhat flawed. Early voters may not be a representative sample of all voters. According to studies I've seen, early voters historically tend to skew Republican relative to the non-early voters.

Therefore, the fact that Democrats currently have a 5 point lead with early voters MAY mean that the margin with non-early voters is substantially larger.

Of course, it is also possible that Democratic voters are shifting their voting pattern to early voting more than Republicans, in which case the non-early voters may be less Democratic than they have been historically.

The truth is likely somewhere in between but closer to the first scenario. The second scenario would imply a "zero-sum" game, where the increased enthusiasm among Democrats translates into them voting early more than Republicans but not improving their overall turnout relative to Republicans.

SHERWICK said...

cartoon's not perfect. should have had mccain on the two left vertical boxes!

Kid G said...

Isn't it typical to take the center space first?

elliv said...

I am goign to be relentless about this--the movement in Gallup--please elt us stop making so much of a big deal about this.

Gallup have been trending up,down,up, down for the last month. And those "trends" have not been picked up anywhere else. They have a real problem keeping their trends stable, even when every other evidence indicate a very stable race.

Eric said...

Zogby is not as bad of a number for Obama as it first appears for two big reasons. First of all, Zogby overpolls Republicans relative to other pollsters and likely relative to reality. Their national poll dropped today from Obama +9 to Obama +5. Best bet is that a day from earlier in the week dropped off that was a number somewhere around Obama +15 and was replace with one last night that was porbably Obama +3 (sounds like that's what McCain is saying anyway). Zogby has a very small sample size on a daily basis. I think Saturday polling has generally been slightly better to McCain as a younger voters are harder to find at home on Saturdays. An Obama +3 night in one republican-lean poll is not a problem. Rasmussen polls a larger sample and still has it at Obama +8. The state polling I've seen released today is Iowa +14, New Hampshire +14, Wisconsin +7, Virginia +9. 3 of the 4 are fantastic for Obama. The Wisconsin number is a little light, but it's Rasmussen and probably a little on the low-end.

fred said...

Galllupdoes a normal Sunday sit down on MSNBC. There is no reason to believe that Gallup didn't leak numbers to MSNBC.

RWD said...

"MO is very conservative outside of the city of Sain Louis. Even Kansas City is red. To win MO as a black man would truly be a watershed event."

Kansas City is red? No it's not. It's a classic Democratic big city. Even used to have a Democratic machine. Perhaps you've heard of a gentleman named Harry Truman?

Now, KC's suburbs on the Mo side are pretty conservative, but the city itself is blue, just like every other big city. That's why Obama drew 70,000 in KC while McCain had to go to the distant suburbs to draw 6,000.

RWD said...

Ras O52 M44 stable as usual...

fred said...

He is talking about Kansas City, MO. Last time I checked, KS residents could not vote in MO and vice versa.

newsinOH said...

I just saw two back to back RNC Mc ads!!! Wow!! The first one was the empty desk/first crisis that I swear is just the JRC ad (not even with new voiceover). The second was the Biden scare ad. Funny thing is that O's ads have been longer ads so, at this point, especially in OH, the short Mc ads barely break through the noise. By the time you notice them, they're over.

One stat from MTP that amazed me was that O's ads are essentially equivalent to Coke and McDonald's ad budget. The difference is that O's budget has been focused on fewer states--so that should give those of you lucky enough to NOT live in a battleground state an idea of the endless ads we've endured!!!

Kid G said...

RWD said...

Ras O52 M44 stable as usual...


I think Nate was right yesterday: people made up their minds after the second debate. Must have been McCain blocking Brokaw's teleprompter that did him in.

arnieh said...

If you believe the numbers on this site, McLame's chances of winning are about 25 to 1 against.
Since all polling and predictions are "statistical" in nature, anything can happen. If most polls predict results 25 time, McLame would win about once.
So don't be so surprised when you see the polls changing....that expected statistical noise.
But 25 to 1 doesn't seems long enough to me. McLame could win. So don't start feeling sorry for the guy.

timschel said...

The empty chair ad is playing here in Florida too.

After seeing it, I almost wish I could change my vote but I voted for O yesterday :)

RWD said...

"He is talking about Kansas City, MO"

Duh. I know that. I live in the KC area. And Kansas City, Mo is a democratic big city, just like every other big city.

Correa-Jones Happenings said...

I hope everyone that has been able to, has already gone out to VOTE!!

I live in FL and I am going Tuesday or Wednesday, I just need to research all the amendments etc.. to make sure my No's are No's and Yes's are Yes's.....
P.S no I didn't change my blog name yet I know it is annoying.
~Yari

Correa-Jones Happenings said...

Just noticed the ad below, kinda funny and even more ridiculous.

Ryan said...

Gallup has definately leaked their poll numbers before noon on MSNBC at least once before that I've seen. I just had the TV on in the background and wasn't paying much attention, so they may have been citing numbers from yesterday, but I believe the graphic on the screen said "TODAY" over the numbers.

mc9cain said...

Any negative changes in Gallup I would like to see in the form of McCain going up versus Obama going down. I want him to stay at 50 or above!

justsomeguy said...

Hasselbach and Palin taking the stage in FL! Two nuts are better together!

Erikson said...

Don't expect IBD/TIPP to attempt to explain their LV model either - or its 70-30 18-24 year old McCain advantage.

http://democratictribune.com

Mule Rider said...

Do we have any poll numbers on the number of blacks supporting McCain? We see that at least some whites are supporting the Muslim, so are any of them supporting an American Hero? I guess that proves where their allegiance allies!

cebnc said...

I hate to ask this, but would anyone mind telling me how to link?

SHERWICK said...

lol mule rider, haven't you given up yet?

MysticLaker said...

@cebnc

link to "W3Schools"


W3Schools

justsomeguy said...

MR-

Owned, lying, and comes back for more. Does pathetic come to mind? Glad to see you adding the terrorist lie to the race lie today.

SHERWICK said...

we established yesterday that blacks do not support blacks - this is why Alan Keyes (a black) lost against Obama (a half white/half black).

Dr. Matt said...

Poor, poor, Male Rider....America supports Obama and that will be a reality around 10 pm EST on Nov 4th. How are you going to commit suicide to deal with it?

MysticLaker said...

sorry @cebnc

look at this page under w3school...

http://www.w3schools.com/TAGS/tag_a.asp

Erikson said...

Given the fact that there has been NOTHING to change the narrative or direction of the race, Zogby's seven-point, three day swing away from Obama and this supposed Gallup swing toward McCain more likely reflect distorted samples than change in actual public opinion. Rasmussen is trending toward Obama because his party ID is actually starting to reflect the way the country is partitioned.

Don't get crazy, folks...these pollsters and media types have a vested financial interest in seeing the race close leading up to Election Day - even if it isn't actually close.

http://democratictribune.com

justsomeguy said...

...and Sharpton, and Braun...

Blacks do simply vote for blacks. MR was owned.

ZY said...

Anyone vote for Obama AND vote for Prop. 8 in California?
Many Asian Americans do.

Mule Rider said...

Justsomeguy,

Did I just say Osama...I mean Obama was a terrorist OR did I say he is a MUSLIM?

sherwick,

Get me those exit poll numbers from the primaries, then we can discuss it!

justsomeguy said...

McCain's message has gotten better, I think real movement is possible but I need to see Gallup first. I also need to see weekday polling, weekend polling can be very screwy.

Bozo said...

People who say AA are voting for Obama because he's black ignore the fact that Obama's AA numbers are very comparable to Bill Clinton's in '92 and '96. Clinton scored in the low to mid 90%'s among AA's in both of his victories, tipping enough southern states his way to win. It isn't the race, it's the economy, stupid. AA's respond to politicians who earn their way up the socio-economic ladder, like Clinton, Biden and Obama (and Palin would qualify, too if she was going up against a Kennedy,say), rather than inherited wealth (McCain, Bush).

Mule Rider said...

justsomeguy said...

Blacks do simply vote for blacks. MR was owned.

-------------------------------

My point exactly...LMAO!

justin32099 said...

Wait, so Mr. Yost reported that Obama's lead was 46-41 among people who had already voted. So 13% of these people voted for third party candidates? For a poll of voters who are yet to vote, 13% not for Obama or McCain is fine, since you have undecided voters, but obviously you can't be undecided about who you already voted for. I guess in 7% of a sample (probably less than 100 voters) having 13% for third party candidates isn't impossible but it's way higher than what is expected of the electorate as a whole.

justsomeguy said...

MR-

We gave you the exit poll numbers from 2008 and the real primary numbers from 2004. Did you read at all, or are you returning with the same lame argument that got you owned yesterday?

Mule Rider said...

dr. Matt,

I see you are using your NostraDUMBASS, crystal ball. Tell me, what will YOU do when those so-called toss-up states suddenly turn red in the middle of the night!

SBT Staff said...

-Dixon/NBC

Iowa
Obama 51, McCain 40

Georgia
McCain 49, Obama 43

Missouri
McCain 46, Obama 45

sfergus483 said...

The 3 day daily trend in the DKos poll is the same as Zogby - O+14, +11, +9. It tracks pretty clearly, so for whatever reason (the Biden ad, taxes, racial issues, or just possibly, sample available on weekends) both polls show a shift over a couple days.

Zogby just overrepresents Repubs, so it's closer.

Some tightening is to be expected as we get close. Nothing to worry about.

Mule Rider said...

justsomeguy,

You have an "owning" complex are you a descendant of slaves? Besides, your own statement just proved my point! Freudian slip or not:

"Blacks do simply vote for blacks. MR was owned."


Did you or did you not say the above statement? LMAO

ZY said...

Mule Rider, have you watched any TV at all? Not only some black vote for M. some famous black vote for M too. Please don't show your ignorance again and again.

LAT said...

how is joe the plumber and obama is a socialist a good message. we have seen that it has not played well. I think that it was natural that the race would tighten at the end but attributing cause and effect to McCain's message is impossible right now. Rass has noted that in his own poll the is just about 3 real undecideds the rest about 8 have been leaning one way or the other and are evenly split. It could be that in the last days these leaners come home evenly and then we get the true undecideds going one way or the other. even if McCain gets all of them he cannot win.

akoolromeo said...

I was watchin MSNBC when Gallup's offical spokesperson was on and he said "I can give you a hint at our 1PM numbers and said their latest poll will show a tighening of the race by 1 or 2 points". It was more than a leak. he only thing to be concern about that result is that their lead was 11 points last Sunday. If the lead is only 5, and Obama loses another 6 points this upcoming week, well, you all can do the math.
Again, this is just one poll, and may not be the most accurate, though don't they use the largest sample? I feel Obama needs a 5% lead in the polls on election day to be safe, and even that may be a squeeker in the end. I don't trust a close election.
Anyone know which poll throughout history is the most accurante predictor?

newsinOH said...

Funny ad juxtaposition:

Just had the new JRC ad warning about O's willingness to meet with scary foreigners and how dangerous he is

Followed by O's education ad in which he's in a brightly lit elementary school with little kids urging parents to work with their children.

It was like "24" meets "Mr. Rogers"

justsomeguy said...

MR-

Have you changed your racism argument from yesterday? I can't keep up with that illogical evangelical mind. Yesterday you were paouting votes fro OBama were racism as black always vote for blacks, you got owned. Have you changed your argument now?

Vanessa said...

I unlike most of you refuse to believe this thing is over.

Kelly said...

The woman on MSNBC said a little while ago that the Gallup Likely Voter is down to a %5 spread today, but didn't mention the actual numbers....and she only commented on the LV as to where the tightening is.

Mule Rider said...

zy--gote,

You have a country composed of about 13% black (many in prison), and you tell me there are "some famous blacks" that are voting for McCain! LMAO Oh yeah, betcha could count those on one hand! You probably can't even name five. How many famous blacks are voting for HUSSEIN, for no other reason than he's black?

LAT said...

news thanks so much for the ad report. here in nyc we get almost none.

Last try on this--Gallup keeps moving up and down. In the middle of the week Obama was up big and now it is back down. Two pollsters have the race tightening (maybe 3) the rest have it stable. Can we stop stop stop reading this as 'Obama is collapsing' last week and the one before it was the exact same thing. The idea that McCain is surging and will make up 6 points in a week is not panning out in ANY of the polls, especially the state polls which is what matters.

Sedi said...

So who is this fake Mule Rider? The real MR is smart and principled (though misguided, in my view), though prone to fits of anger. This one seems petty and irrelevant...much more trollish and just looking to get a rise out of people. The blogger ID noting that the fake MR only joined in Oct. 2008 is the easy giveaway, since the real MR has been here for months.

Pathetic ID thieves actually make me feel a bit sorry for the real MR. If this fake MR wants to make silly arguments, then why not pick a unique user ID and take responsibility for your views?

Chi said...

@zy

I am in CA and sent in my absentee ballot already. I voted for Obama and voted NO on Prop 8. And no, I am not Asian.

Word Verification: hunkings

politicalcynic said...

Stop worrying about a single poll like Zogby.

1. The aggregate models are incredibly consistent-even when you include Zogby. Look at the Princeton meta-analysis graph-they've shown Obama at 330-360 EV's for over a month. Its the stability of the race overall that's significant now-not day to day fluctuations in the polls.

2. Gallup actually has been fairly stable. Their number over time have consistently run with a lead for Obama and the variation never seems to be more than the MOE.

3. Everyone expects this to tighten in the next week. Why wouldn't it?

4. The nationals aren't as important now-except for general trends. Kerry+IA+NM means Obama needs just ONE more state out of ALL these "battlegrounds" to win. And CO and VA look GOOD. Hell, Karl Rove just moved Indiana to Obama on his site.

4. Zogby's poll shows the race tightening-and is probably based on past LV models (which favor Republicans) and uses an voter ID distribution favoring Republicans. So what? If a right leaning poll shows a five point Obama lead, and that's the BEST he can do, then arguably his "race tightens" poll is good for Obama.

Political "I spend WAY too much time on election sites" cynic.

Buckeye said...

I read these boards often and some of you are downright hilarious. You freak out everytime you see the polls tightening and act as if your entire day has been ruined. Its a poll. Most have said you can expect some tightening so why are you freaking out. And, these national polls are pretty much meaningless its the state by state polls that you should be looking at. You don't win the election by who has the highest popular vote, you win by electoral count from each state. Someof you have been spoiled by these great numbers Obama has posted. before you just wanted him to get to 270 now folks are looking at him to crack 400. Let's just win and then worry about all the rest later.

Eric said...

sfergus483 said...
The 3 day daily trend in the DKos poll is the same as Zogby - O+14, +11, +9. It tracks pretty clearly, so for whatever reason (the Biden ad, taxes, racial issues, or just possibly, sample available on weekends) both polls show a shift over a couple days.


DailyKOs is Obama +11. Zogby is hyper-volatile, like Battleground. If they have an outlier day for one candidate, it makes their polling suspect for 6 days. The reason is when that one day outlier drops off, it creates the inverse psychological effect that it did initially. Also, the small sample sizes are relevant. 200 people nationally is not a big enough sample size to statisitically be accurate. Regardless of what someone would argue about margin of error and 95% of the time being right, they're wrong. You cannot measure 300 million diverse population with a sample size of 200. It's impossible. The margin of error is probably around 10%.

takestock said...

akoolromeo: "...their lead was 11 points last Sunday. If the lead is only 5, and Obama loses another 6 points this upcoming week..."

You may be mixing two of the gallup polls. In the expanded, he was 51-44 last week. Lose a point from yesterday's 51-43 makes it 51-44, let's say, this week. No change and another week lost for McCain.

justsomeguy said...

sedi-

This is what Mulie used to act like all the time. Now he is back to his original antics. He has fits of sanity, but they do not last.

I KNOW this is the real Mulie as the stuff he said to Fred last night showed actual knowledge of prior argument.

Charles Crook said...

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/mccain-on-meet-the-press/

Mr. McCain spoke from Waterloo, in central Iowa, a state where most polls show him now trailing by double digits. On Saturday, both he and Mr. Obama were in Albuquerque for rallies: Mr. McCain’s drew fewer than 1,000 people, while Mr. Obama’s, according to fire marshals, attracted at least 35,000.

“I choose to trust my senses as well as the polls, and the enthusiasm at almost all of our campaign events is at a higher level than I’ve ever seen,” Mr. McCain said.
--

How can McCain look at dwindling crowds and make such a statement?

OTF said...

R2000 Polls:

South Dakota
McCain 50, Obama 41 McCain +9

Tennessee
McCain 54, Obama 38

Arkansas
McCain 52, Obama 41

Missouri
Obama 48, McCain 47

Illinois
Obama 59, McCain 35

Vanessa said...

why *exactly* do polls tighten in the final days?