Look in later today for our On the Road piece from Wilmington, North Carolina. We're a bit ahead of our coverage, which occasionally happens out here with the long distances, input, output and timing demands. Tonight we'll be at the Obama-Clinton rally in Kissimmee, Florida, and we're breaking in from Miami, where John McCain just concluded his "Joe the Plumber" rally at Everglades Lumber.
After the rally, we witnessed a near-street riot involving the exiting McCain crowd and two Cuban-American Obama supporters. Tony Garcia, 63, and Raul Sorando, 31, were suddenly surrounded by an angry mob. There is a moment in a crowd when something goes from mere yelling to a feeling of danger, and that's what we witnessed. As photographers and police raced to the scene, the crowd elevated from stable to fast-moving scrum, and the two men were surrounded on all sides as we raced to the circle.
The event maybe lasted a minute, two at the most, before police competently managed to hustle the two away from the scene and out of the danger zone. Only FiveThirtyEight tracked the two men down for comment, a quarter mile down the street.
"People were screaming 'Terrorist!' 'Communist!' 'Socialist!'" Sorando said when we caught up with him. "I had a guy tell me he was gonna kill me."
Asked what had precipitated the event, "We were just chanting 'Obama!' and holding our signs. That was it. And the crowd suddenly got crazy."
Garcia told us that the man who originally had warned the two it was his property when they had first tried to attend the rally with Obama T-shirts was one of the agitators. Coming up just before the scene started getting out of hand, the man whispered in Garcia's ear, "I'm gonna beat you up the next time I see you." Garcia described him for us: "a big stocky man wearing a tweed jacket." He used hand motions to emphasize this was a large guy. We went back to look for the gentleman twenty minutes after the incident but didn't find him.
The two Obama supporters had attempted to attend the event with tickets printed from the McCain website. Both were clad in Obama T-shirts, Sorando in a blue "Obama '08" shirt, and Garcia in a white "Obama-Biden" shirt. They were told that the event was being held on private property and that wearing the shirts or carrying the signs they would be asked to either remove the shirts or not attend.
For an hour during the rally, the two had stood across the street from the lumberyard on public property holding yard signs. Some drivers honked in support, and others honked in disapproval. When the rally ended and the crowd spilled out, the disturbance began.
Garcia had a message for his stocky, tweed-clad threatener. "You tell that guy he can find Tony Garcia down at the West Dade library every day from 7 to 7 helping people early vote. I'll be there from 1 to 5 on Saturday and Sunday. You tell him if he wants to kick my ass that's where he can find me. Come beat me up."
Not thirty seconds later, John McCain drove by in his SUV and waved at Garcia on the sidewalk, who was happily waving his Obama sign.
356 comments
Yikes, people are nuts.
I think it will be part of the McCain political legacy if he doesn't find a way to repudiate these people after the election.
He fired them up with lies, he needs to deflate it.
I wonder if this will show up in the national news...
I hope for his sake that McCain is sick of pandering to such morons.
However hypocritical his campaign has become, it would be worse if it wasn't hypocritical at all.
Brownshirts.
I agree that McCain/Palin have to be held responsible for these frenzied crowds of haters. They are not simply going to disappear after the election. Who is going to get them under control?
There is definitely an element in the Miami Cuban community that is very used to using this kind of intimidation tactics. Luckily, I think that there will soon be a tipping point, where people will start to stand against this, as the community is clearly trending towards non-crazy-land.
Passion has its limits. This is insane. When did politics get so damn personal that people are threatening those with different opinions with death and bodily harm? Come ON, people. Nothing is ever going to get better if we keep hating those who don't agree with us. We need to fight to understand each other. If we don't, the downhill slide of our current situation will continue indefinitely.
This is great coverage, and a very interesting story. However, I'm not sure passing on Garcia's message to the man in tweed is a very good idea.
Quick correction for Sean: it should be "West Dade", not "West Day" library. That was my neighborhood library when I was growing up - Dade is the (former) name of the county.
This story does not really surprise me. Miami is... excitable, especially the conservative contingent. But secretly, it's a Democratic city.
The tone of McCain/Palin rallies are barely under control. I hope no one is injured (or worse) because of these in the next week.
That sucks. But what did you expect?
on to other news to make you smile:
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/10/27/1027jones.html
Daughter of slave votes for Obama.
dont know who i cant stand more mccain or lieberman.
was it just us or did that crowd that were with mccain this morning look like they were way past their prime? older than the hills? dead on their feet? been around the block more than a few times?
my one hope these days is that the entire republican party is DYING OFF. i want my country back
The mob mentality is being fueled at McCain/Palin rallies. The fact that Joe the Plumber was hired is a continuation of this theme. The McCain/Palin campaign has put him on a pedestal and is practically worshiping him as the campaign's savior.
But Joe the Plumber makes ALL my female colleagues' blood boil: he looks like a thug and talks like a thug. And, as we saw yesterday, JtP feels that he is now qualified to pronounce opinions on international affairs. Those views echo what the visual and audio cues transmit.
I expect an instinctive anti JtP wave, especially amongst women, may be part of Obama's surge in Ohio.
The modern Republican party since Nixon.
I hope the wingnuts are proud. They are a national disgrace and I will be laughing my ass off while they go down to humiliating defeat next Tuesday.
JC said...
I hope for his sake that McCain is sick of pandering to such morons.
He isn't. If he was he would, knowing he's losing he would have stopped campaigning as a risk mitigation.
If something realy goes wrong I sincerely hop McCain, Palin and some other campaign aides will be jailed. Afterall they clearly will be accessory to the event.
I hoped to jump on here at the end of my lunch and get a quick read of one of the nice On The Road pieces. These people are awful. I am glad that the police stepped in before it escalated any further. Thanks for the update, Sean, and please be careful out there!
For those of us who remember the whole Elian (sp?) Gonzales affair, this is not surprising.
The anger on the far right is boiling right now. There's been so much fear and distrust, and yes hate about Obama that these people are borderline dangerous.
If Obama wins the are gonna lose their mind.
Daughter of slave votes for Obama.
The article doesn't mention it but Bastrop is in Louisiana.
not a blip of red today yet for mccain...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
The states with forests will determine the election! Maine, Oregon, Washington, Colorado and Pennsylvania (translated it means "Penns Woods!") will vote for the woman of the forest! She has a natural bond! Oh my look at the polls!
Mark me: People will come out of the Woods to vote against Obama!
The Maverick and the Frontierswoman will lead them to it.
Long time reader, first time poster (just posted this in the other thread, but posting here so it doesn't get overlooked)...
Just wanted to say and maybe get some comments in response to this -- does anyone else see the Republican party fracturing after this for the next election? I've read things that recommend that perhaps the majority of people who identify themselves as Republicans do not agree completely with the overly religious based roots that the party claims, and that social issues such as abortion and gay marriage are only huge issues for the extreme right wing.
With some people starting to point to a Palin bid in 2012, does anyone else feel that the more moderate Republicans might try breaking away from the party to run someone more 'in the middle'? I don't think that in four years, Palin's message of ultra-super-conservative morals will play any better than they do now.
Worthless piece of shit cowards.
THIS IS GOING TO GET WORSE BEFORE IT GETS BETTER. I HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE. THEY ARE PUTTING TOO MUCH AIR IN THE TIRE AND NOT (sry caps) allowing any release, at some point it will be too much to let the air out slowly and the tire will burst.
Places like GA, NC, and FL are going to have some civil unrest on voting night and the following week.
Perhaps Sydney and Barbi will turn to their scripture and impart some words to their crowd.
I have a good starting list:
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you: that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned. Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye Me, "Lord, Lord," and do not the things which I say?
look behind that picture of mccain and lieberman.
THE FLAG LOOKS UPSIDE DOWN. what an omen for America.
when i left the Obama rally in Espanola NM a couple of weeks back I saw two huge brilliant rainbows. for any of you that have never seen a rainbow in the desert you are REALLY missing something you can see its entire arc and the ccolors are just vivid
THE GODS ARE WITH US!
>> I agree that McCain/Palin have to be held responsible for these frenzied crowds of haters. They are not simply going to disappear after the election. Who is going to get them under control?
It isn't like McCain created them, he's just bringing them together as a mob. When he stops doing that a lot of it will dissipate, such is the nature of mobs. However do any of us think Palin will stop? This is where she is most at home. Highly emotional, low rational appeal is her stock and trade. :(
P.S. I wish this article wouldn't have encouraged this extra-curricular "ass kicking" showdown by publishing that challenge.
VM: A bad omen, "spatters".
Here is my real fear about stories like this. Suppose the polls do really close in the last few days (there are after all a few (a few mind) signs that they might do.) And imagine we have a contested election again, or even just a tight finish with one state being the key, and some signs of shenanigans and voter fraud (acorn related no doubt), however trivial. What do these angry mobs do then?
Whatever McCain says now, whatever Palin says now, whatever the likes of Fox News says now to calm the beying hordes, is there any signs that these people can be talked down?
I hope for everybodies good that Obama scores a significant victory.
Typical McCain supporter's preferred option is violence while the Obama clan volunteers for change...
I'm really curious about the so called "low information" voter. What percentage of likely voters fall into this catagory? Do they all vote Republican and if so, why isn't it a 50/50 split? In other words, what specifically about McCain/Republicans appeals to stupid? Help us out here Nate - any stats?
Overall I think protesting a political rally is kind of tacky. Rally's are an important part of democracy and don't deserve protest, whatever you think of the candidates involved.
However with just pro-Obama signs and standing respectfully outside the rally its not really a protest.
These McCain supporters are just scary.
In Cuba itself, there is a steady media drumbeat about 4 guys in US jail for spying, for infiltrating the Miami Cuban scene. I don't know the whole story, but I do know that if the shoe were on the other foot these guys would definitely count as patriots - for reporting on clandestine flights from a hostile nation to give aid to anti-government forces, including saboteurs. (On the other hand, even Fox could not keep up the propaganda level on one story for this many years, Fox must can still aspire to a higher level of autocratic propaganda.)
My point is that in Miami there is a long history of a "mess with us and we'll fuck you up!" attitude from the extreme Cuban-American right. Putting guys in jail for spying on them, even though they're not the government, is just one small example.
Why is it that public rhetoric on the right in the US is so incredibly puerile?
I mean, there are clearly plenty of nutjobs on the left as well, probably just as many, and away from the mainstream left-wing discourse has its fair share of paranoia, conspiracy theorising, self-loathing, anti-Semitism, utopianism, etc. But the difference is that on the right it seems to be mainstream. Catchphrases like 'Drill, baby, drill', accusations of socialism based on a 4% rise in income tax, the use of 'liberal' as a term of abuse, accusing people of failing to salute the flag, etc. This stuff isn't serious. Has it always been that way on the American right, or is it since the evangelicals became the Republican power base?
Chanting 'USA! USA!' at rallies, as if the nation is a sports team, seems like the same sort of thing to me, but I understand that happens at democrat rallies too.
Personally, I'm praying for GOP schism this Winter. It's long overdue. The business/free-market folks need to break from the wingnut/fundie elements. These groups really have less in common than they think, and they may realize it after this election. All it will take is a few prominent GOP moderates to publicly jump ship--it's starting already, with various conservative pundits endorsing Obama.
Pete,
Maine, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and Pennsylvania?? LMAO
McCain has an igloo's chance in Hell in all of those states.
By all means, Boss Tweed, go try to start some shit with Tony Garcia. My guess is that the cops will be hanging around, and it's sure as heck not going to make McCain's campaign look any better.
Seriously, anyone who opposes the right of the opposite side to voice their opinions or vote how they want is being about as un-American as it's possible to be.
Nate - is there any polling which shows how Ross Perot did after his primetime TV special in 1992? Did it help him in a measurable way?
Nothing says Godly Old Party and protecting the little guy like racially-tinged lynch mobs whipped up with a red scare and shouting death threats.
They're big on liberty, don't forget.
Whatever these fringe right wing lunatics do is on McCain/Palin's watch because of their Barack Obama Is A Socialist fear-mongering.
The self-inflicted lobotomy of the Republican Party is nearly complete.
@nirad...
You could never compare. Here is a youtube of the beginning, but you will get the picture very quickly. If anyone can find the whole thing that would be great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERlGndQ_xtM
Hey Sean...
Are you sure these pictures are from Miami? They look a lot like New Mexico to me.
HA!
wordver: goendles
Sorry, third comment with the same point. But I wanted to respond to the tone of some other comments. I definitely agree that McCain/Palin are playing with fire in terms of stirring up Nobama hate; but I do not see this story as part of it. This is specific to the Miami Cuban community.
For instance, I suspect that Garcia knows exactly what he is doing by challenging his threatener. These are not unhinged loonies (whom it would indeed be dangerous to challenge like that), but disciplined goons; standing up to them is a smart tactic.
It's amazing to hear McCain supporters in Florida of all places label Obama as a "terrorist" when Republicans, particularly in Florida, have shielded terrorists (like Luis Posada) who have actually killed people on US soil.
McCain and Palin will forever go down in history as instigators to violence against the first African American presidential candidate. Congratulations.
Dominic et al.:
They are not simply going to disappear after the election. Who is going to get them under control?
Under control? Not a chance. Doesn't anyone remember the Clinton administration? These yahoos are going to be around for the next eight years, yelling that Obama is illegitimate because the election was stolen by ACORN and the librul media and trying to undermine him at every turn. The GOP doesn't want them to be under control.
That's why we all have to remain engaged and active well after Election Day, so the voices of the screamers aren't the only ones out there again, so the media never get the delusion they had in the 90s that right-wing witch-hunters somehow represent "mainstream" America.
Election Day is just the beginning.
yeah, because going to a mccain rally dressed up with obama shirts&signs is a perfect idea.
i'm not saying the reaction was justified, on the contrary. but i really don't understand how one can think its a good idea to go to a mccain rally while obviously supporting obama. the way they did it is NOT going to swing ANY votes. its only more likely to sway people away from obama and more towards mccain.
on the other hand, completely insane that the crowd reacted in such a way.
This is exactly why Palin is so dangerous. The only thing she knows is immediate opportunity. She cares nothing for long term consequences. It is the one consistent theme in her short political career.
She goes for incendiary, false rhetoric to get the loudest cheers. SHE feels popular so f#@k anything else. The tone deaf remnant of the GOP hear volume and see bodies, concluding "good".
She's now burned a bunch of national players. Let's hope their animus continues after a resounding defeat. Let's hope these voices are heard in the aftermath:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/fullpage/the-palin-effec.php
@ mysticlaker,
"We're in deep voodoo..."
Wow, that was really bad. He kind of overdid it with the graphs and pie charts in only about a 30 second span.
When were you in Wilmington?
You gotta post up in advance when you're going to be places, I would have bought you a beer. And I work in a specialty wine/beer shop, so it would have been a really good beer.
tudiat
@Sarah
When did politics get so damn personal that people are threatening those with different opinions with death and bodily harm?
In Europe they do it over soccer. Humans!
Nothing new... Republicans in Miami have been rabid lunatics forever. Bombings of Art shows, death threats, attacking Democratic candidates, spitting at Nelson Mandela... the list goes on and on. For the people who are surprised by this... welcome to the party, we've been dealing with gusano hatred since at least the late 70s.
I inquired earlier this week about the potential effect of early voting on exit polling. Slate has written a piece on it that should reassure everyone...
Slate
At an Obama rally yesterday (Norfolk, VA) there were some pro-McCain loons screeching at the line of people filing in that we would be judged harshly by God, etc. The response from Obama backers? Laughter, and chants of "Obama." No threats, no anger, just good humor.
Interesting contrast with the mobs at McCain's rallies, eh?
McCain/Palin audiences bring back images of KKK rallies when were supposedly such a different nation. How sad that they're coming out of the woodwork to drum up hatred and bigotry for a few, futile votes. Good read about this at
TvNewsLIES
in a commentary on the editor's free (but must register) newsletter today. Worth a look.
Fed announcement in 5 minutes. Brace yourselves!!!
@MysticLaker said...
"You could never compare. Here is a youtube of the beginning, but you will get the picture very quickly. If anyone can find the whole thing that would be great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERlGndQ_xtM"
Man, I miss Perot. He was kooky but at least you knew exactly what he was thinking and he was able to call out the political nonsense more effectively than just about anyone at that time.
Two Minutes of Hate circa 1984
Congrats McCain/Palin - your on the wrong side of history, and will forever be linked to Race-Baiting, Fear Mongering, and Hate.
I am so proud that my country has evolved and the methods used consistently in this country, whenever the people try to come together to solve their common problems by electing leaders who share this sentiment, are failing.
When the dust settles on the GOP, I hope they reemerge as a party that shares one principle of the Democratic party, and that is to Unite ALL Americans. Until that day comes, the GOP should be shunned and cast out of the democratic process by the electorate.
The Republican Party will not break up.
The free marketers NEED the religious right to have any shot of winning.
Bush got 51% in 2004. Take away even 5% who would vote for a theocrat anti-abortion third party (and yes, the theocrats would be the ones who would have to break away because they ulatimtely would be the ones without money - see Huckabee for details) and he loses.
Ultimately, while they dont have a ton in common, both sides (well all three sides when you include the neocons) have more in common with each other than with liberal Democrats.
The real question is - can Obama and the Dems reign themselves in enough to solidify the colation of elite whites, blacks, Latinos and working class whites (i.e. the new Roosevelt coalition).
Basically the fight for the next few years is going to be over the somewhat religious, but financially strapped white couple.
@ nirad -- The Perot stuff after his TV specials wouldn't apply the same way as here. A lot of what Perot was doing in those TV specials was introducing himself and what he stood for to the America public. Before those specials, no one really knew Perot, as he had turned down a bunch of media interviews and instead came out with his specials.
I'm quite certain that after his TV specials, he received a noticeable bump, but his situation was more akin to the rolling out of Palin at the RNC this year than what Obama's ad will be.
The key to telling if it is a useful tool will be to find out how many people tuned into it. There was a belief in 1992 that no one was going to watch Perot's specials, but the first one drew over 16 million viewers.
At the least, if this is done right the danger that the ad has for the McCain camp is that it seems that if Obama can talk for 30 minutes about his plan, but McCain only runs 30 second commercials that McCain doesn't have a plan like Obama does.
And considering this has been the general perception of the election so far by people who are turned off by the negative campaign ads from McCain, this could be a very astute tactical move from Obama, and something that only further buries McCain's chances at anything resembling a comeback.
Hey Everybody,
Any polls out today?
:)
I wouldn't trust John McCain with a plastic tugboat in a bathtub of warm water -- this man is a timebomb waiting to go off.
He has set this country back 50-60 years in politics and in civil relations between citizens, tacitly giving approval for anger, name-calling and racism at his rallies by his own behavior and rhetoric.
I think John McCain is ashamed of his behavior in Vietnam -- giving up military secrets when many other POWs did not, even under torture. I think that he's never gotten over that and is angry about it. His behavior with Iraq shows that he wants to relive and re-fight Vietnam and somehow redeem himself.
He's a bitter, angry fool bordering on senility and god help us if he wins the election. I predict WW III if he does.
Can you imagine him rolling his eyes, dissing some dignitary, insulting some head of state with the F bomb or by singing "bomb, bomb Iran"?
The only other thing scarier is that Palin would be there with him or taking his place.
Heliacric, I'd managed to get through three posts without using the "G" word and there you go with it. Oh well.
(For those going "huh?": Castro once called Miami Cubans "maggots" in Spanish and the name stuck. It's still not nice though.)
Anyone else think its funny how its not kosher to quote exit polls when states are still voting but its ok to quote early voting polls?
Talking points memo has a link to your story already on their homepage. News travels fast in this digital age eh?
McCain is gonna reap what he sows in my opinion. Something bad is gonna happen and its going to be on his shoulders. I hope hes proud of what hes created.
The more I think about all of this and the more I think about the tone, not so much of the candidates, although they share much of the responsibility, certainly for not calming the tone down, of the GOP campaign, the more I think John Lewis had it right.
Its vital that anyone who can takes a stand against this intimidation and violence, in anyway they can.
mc9cain
a couple PA polls have obama up by 13 and 14 points. its all on pollster.com. another addiction of mine.
The business/free-market folks need to break from the wingnut/fundie elements. These groups really have less in common than they think, and they may realize it after this election.
I think they've known for a long time that they have little in common; it's always been a marriage of convenience. The business/aristocratic conservatives have been expert at stirring up the fundamentalists to get votes, while doing little for them once in office (and then blaming that on the liberals, as motivation to get votes from the again.) The thing that could cause it to break up is the threat of the fundamentalists actually being powerful enough to take control. That seems like a definite possibility this time around, since the religious conservatives and other know-nothings will almost certainly blame McCain for losing, while the business and "think tank" conservatives are already blaming Palin.
Whether the result will be a breakup, a renegotiation, or an extended civil war is anyone's guess, though.
I feel parts of the country revel in their ignorance while they are protected by a sheen of "Small town America"
This ignorance is perpetuated by the right and even supported. When they are called on this nonsense they attack the truth teller thought chants of elitism and Liberalism using their mouth pieces on the radio (Hannity,Limbaugh,Hewitt) and TV (Hannity, O'Reilly) and print.
Until such time that this ignorance is not tolerated our country cannot grow to where we need to be. I'm not sure how long it will take before this group is sufficiently small enough not to matter or have any political strength, but that will be a good day for America.
"The states with forests will determine the election!"
Pretty funny, considering that McCain's safest territory are unforested states like Kansas and Oklahoma.
1/2 cut by feds
I live in Miami and have a blog that is supporting Obama. The Cuban-American-Republicans only see socialism when they see Obama. These are the people who obtained instant government aid amd green cards when their dry foot landed on our soil - Medicare, housing, etc. They are rabidly blind to reality. I have witnessed death threats from wackos on public transportation trains against Obama. I think it might get ugly if Obama wins.
The GOP is turning into the old British National Party (BNP).
Please go piss off up to Alaska after the election and become Canada's problem after you secede from the Union
Well, I have to give props to McCain who waved at the Obama people.
It's obvious there is a major disconnect between him, his campaign, and his supporters.
Some of his supporters are flat out thugs. They're bringing down the moderate voters' opinion of him I think.
Democracy takes courage. We forget that sometimes. God bless you Messrs Garcia and Sorando.
McCain losing suburbs to Obama, according to Hofstra poll...
Hofstra Poll
Ever wonder what the folks at RedState have in terms of predictive models? Well, (*drum roll*) here's your answer: the first Gallup poll after Labor Day.
That's right, Dan Perin's #2 reason that McCain-Palin are "a lock" is that the ticket led in Gallup's first poll after Labor Day.
So silly, Nate doing all this work with his elitist "conditional probability" and "regression analysis!" Motherfuckers in the know just hit up Gallup on 09/01 and then chill till Election Day!
Okay, maybe I need to go back to school, but can someone tell me how "Socialist" joined the ranks of "wife-beater", "holocaust denier", "child-molester", "war criminal", "jihadist" as a word that boils up the blood just at it's mention? I've read up on Socialism. It's a little naive, but it's hardly dangerous or particularly offensive. Why is even the implication that Obama may have Socialist leanings a chink in the armor? Now, the reality is that he is not a Socialist, and we, as a nation, are far more socialist than we admit. But again, I ask academically, how did "Socialist" join the other horrible names being hurled at him?
The split in the Repug's is interesting.
Basically, the Wealthy + military-industrial-complex + neocons groups FINANCED the party using the Racists + Fundies as the voting muscle. It worked because the WEALTH/WAR coalition could give a shit about Gays or Choice so they GAVE those issues to the mob to keep their support for War-Never-Ending.
The Fundies are going nuts now because they know that if McCain wins they'll get another neanderthal or two on the Supreme Court and Gays and Choice will be screwed royally for another generation. The creationist knuckle dragging wing of the Fundies are SO close to their Holy Grail of hate and bigotry they are almost choking on the bile it is raising in their throats.
IF McCain loses they will create a Saint out of Sarah-Our-Lady-of-the-Look-I-Can-See-Russia-From-My-Living-Room and ride her holy ass to - what I sincerely hope will be a massive repudiation by the American people in 2012.
O’ Grand Old Party! Whither thou goest?
Goatdan (welcome) wrote: "does anyone else see the Republican party fracturing after this for the next election?”
I do not see the Rep Party fracturing I see in re-aligning.
It will return to its roots of being the Party of aspiration of upward mobility brought about by Private Growth.
It will shed its Wall Street wing. The rich capitalists have become too dependent on government protection and they live in deeply blue states. Let the problems of the financial services industry be left to Governors Corzine and Patterson and Arnold's successor, along with all those Democratic Senators.
The coming recession will hit the financial services industry the hardest and the states that will feel it the worst will be NY, CA, NJ, CT and MA. The Bluest of the Blue! More's the pity!
The millions of lives that are dependent upon the Wall Street teat is now the Democrat's problem. I wish you luck governing and building a coalition with that Albatross around your neck.
Meanwhile, the GOP will emphasize the values of Main Street and Sam's Club, while welcoming the ambitious like Joe the Plumber and Tito the Builder.
We will continue to stand for a traditional kind of morality in opposition to the libertine morals of Hollywood and the Culture of Death of the Democratic Party.
The Republicans represent the best of a proud tradition that stands in awe of American power and sees the nation as a force for good. As McCain puts it: We are not victims of history, we make history! And we make it for the good.
Iraq will ultimately be seen as a tremendous success. Having a base in the heart of the Middle East will help us fight the transcendent evil of our time – radical Islam. The frank recognition of the threat by the Republican Party and its determination to fight it will serve to diminish the Democrats in opposition as the Party of weakness and defeatism. The parallel to the Fall of the Soviet Union is already palpable.
George Will, Peggy Noonan, Colin Powell are dead to us -- Apostates that lacked the capacity to embrace the change within their own party and see the virtue of its traditions and its grounding principles. They have abetted their traditional enemy and have done so for the mess of pottage that is the Obama campaign.
Our new spokesmen are a gal name Sarah and guy name Joe. Our elder Statesmen is none other than Charles Krauthammer, who alone among the polemicists this year spoke with a clarity of vision and understood the stakes and principles involved in this election and held true to them.
We are not a Party in schism; we are a party in resurgence. In a crucible of fire, steel is forged. We are finding our way once more.
McCain – Palin ’08!
McCain – Palin ’12!!!
Why do McCain-Palin supporters hate America?
Two failed wars, torture, domestic spying, corruption, scandal, Katrina, and the worst financial disaster since the Great Depression.
How much worse do they want it to get.
Aren't these the same people who assured us that George Bush would make a great president -- the very ones who wanted his face on Mt. Rushmore?
If you want to get out of a hole, you first have to stop digging.
@subterranean
very nice post!
Having said that, I envy anyone who can "chill till Election Day"
I think people overestimate the divide between the elite Repubs and the theocrats based on the response to Palin.
The problem isnt however Palin's policies, but her utter inexperience.
There might be some in fighting between Repubs about whether Romney or Palin should get the nomination, but ultimately they will coalesce around that candidate.
Like I said before - the real issue is can the Democrats hold the ground they have gained on convincing people not to vote against their own best economic interests.
@ Thomas -- The question though is what does the 5% of the vote that the religious right take away from what they would gain by being more central in their way of thinking?
I tend to be a very moderate person. There are things that both sides generally do that I can see as having a potential benefit to us all. But as long as the Republicans are running a campaign with big portions based around their social issues that I don't agree with, I doubt I'll consider voting for them ever.
It would also allow them to get rid of some of their more contradictory issues, such as the Pro-Life, Pro-War thing and freedom from Government, Government supports religion thing that I think that most people in the same shoes as I am see as completely hypocritical.
Well, McCain just finished his last attempt at scaring the public into voting for his trigger happy ass.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Watching the stock market is like watching a tennis match. Right after the fed decision to cut rates 1/2% the Dow lost like 100 points immediately, then gained back over +100, now it's back down 40.
There's a Bastrop, TX too.
Ian Monroe:
It's the obligation of the people in a democracy to express their opinions and seek out debate. I think it's kind of funny when people say certain things shouldn't be protested. As an Obama supporter I protested a Palin fundraising even here in California and a car drove by with a sign in the window that said "Don't Protest". That was weeks ago and sometimes I still laugh about it.
It would have been awesome if the McCain people actually had a discussion with the Obama people, even if nobody convinced each other, peaceful arguments in the street should be what our country is all about. Creating an environment of violence is the worst. Shame on those folks.
Oh, and by the way FIRST!!!1
Pete Kent's post is terrific news...FOR CRACK COCAINE!!!
Ignorant, Ignorant, Ignorant
Based on what my sister-in-law forwards, this is no surprise. I'm amazed nobody's been murdered, the most reported trouble being stealing yardsigns and vicious invective. Yet.
I have some sympathy for McCain.
By pandering to the right he has a tiger by the tail (or is that tigeress?).
He has shifted to a "Joe the Plumber - Obama is a Socialist" meme. That is a relatively high road after "Obama palls around with terorists".
By the scale of things one must use, calling Obama a socialist is an attack on policy. It is even a bit true. For that matter McCain is on the record with socialist leanings. He would be frothing at the mouth rabid if he didn't.
The thing is socialism isn't an absolute, it is relative. All large wortkable societies are at least part Socialist and part Capatalist.
Now that McCain has finaly found a valid(ish) attack he can expect some small surge in the Polls. I think that we are seing it.
Some will vote McCain because he is more fiscaly more supportive to the rich. Not many. Most will feel that if the "trickle down" hasn't trickled after 8 years, it is time to go get it. Many of the remainder will vote for compitance over ideology.
Obama is going to win , and win big, but I do think that these last few days have been stronger for McCain that most.
I know some moderate Repubs (fiscal conservatives, social liberals). They always viewed the fundies as a necessary, but trivial, evil. They weren't the least bit upset about the pick of Palin because it was just throwing a bone to the far right (they would say dismissively . . .) This didn't trouble them at all.
This was the attitude with the moderate conservative media as well. That is until the bone they tossed morphed into the monster that she is. It is harder and harder for the moderates to cling to their "we're voting for the top of the ticket" argument anymore (especially since he has diminished his own fragile standing with them even more with his campaign).
Only the moderates can stop the direction their former party has chosen. The Bachmann race is one indication that they just might.
goatdan - there is certainly room for a moderate party in this country - in fact I think it would do pretty well in 2012 against the backdrop of a hugely liberal Congress and a right wing that is convinced they lost because their candidate wasn't right wing ENOUGH.
But the Republicans themselves wont shoot themselves in the foot by starting their own party. Its not in their best interest. They see that even this year when the Republican brand is in the garbage they will manage 45% of the national vote.
The key will be for a moderate Democrat to break away now and start a moderate party that includes disaffected Republicans. Maybe guys who got booted for not being right wing enough and so have nothing to lose.
But the powers that be in the Republican party know that what they have still works - their are enough people that are "afraid" of socialism, abortions or blacks to make an election close or even win in most years.
Tony G is my kinda guy!
Meet me at the library so I can kick yo ass while I'm helping out with early voting.
Don't know if anyone has read this yet, but now apparently DEMS are not just socialist, commies, fascist, terrorist, but now you can add godless to the list according to Dole's campaign. It is getting ugly.
Link
It's sad, but at this point McCain has really sold his soul to the devil. I bet he looks back on this campaign, especially the fall, with a lot of regret. He is a better person than this, but he's surrounded himself with those Bush scum bags
I would also like to give props to McCain for waiving. I can't bring myself to dislike McCain; Palin's the one who frightens me.
I'd like to call for a general moritorium on calling the other side "facists," or "brownshirts." If you go to any right-wing site, (say, the fairly unpleasant Commentary Magazine, for instance), you'll see that the commentators their spend half their time calling Democrats "facists" as well.
Enough of that. I'm equally sick of the "NOBAMA"/"McJerk" stuff that each side is doing. It was never funny, and now it's gone beyond annoying. Let's just vote Obama, win this election, and bring people together.
Yeah, it sucks that people at the rally were jerks, but there's also that video of the Upper West-Siders yelling at McCain supporters and giving them the finger. Hardly our finest hour.
Let's just get through this and win. You stay classy... America.
Reminds me of the Caning of Sumner
I suspect if anyone tried to start a "moderate" party, they'd find that everyone's definition of "moderate" would be hard to make coexist.
We have *two* moderate parties in this country. It's not as if the Greens or Libertarians are winning elections, here.
I've just coined a new phrase.
Obama Republicans (tm)
I wonder if they will be referenced in the same way the Reagan Democrats have been.
I'm hoping the economic meltdown has killed off libertarianism for good. Anarchism for button downs
Classy is for after the election - let's win!
Sounds like Obama is going to use Powell and Buffett and other endorsers in the infomercial tonight. This might be GREAT!
Welcome to the political environment the Republican's deplorable tactics have given us. Meanwhile Palin and others continue to call Obama a socialist. Now she's saying he wants to rewrite the Constitution as part of his share the wealth plan.
When the people on the ticket are spouting such crazy lies, it's not that surprising that it fires people up.
"I'm hoping the economic meltdown has killed off libertarianism for good. Anarchism for button downs"
If a complete repudiation by history, reality and the world over the last century hasn't killed that last little sliver, nothing will.
foreverblu,
And what do you think Mc's reaction to reminiscing about this campaign will be? Maybe he'll write a come clean book to try to resurrect his legacy??? Gotta admit it would be a mavericky thing to do.
Liberatarianism is not dead, or even napping. The libertarians see the meltdown and the gov intervention in the aftermath as a reason to fight harder.
I still think libertarians flip MT blue this year by voting for Paul!
Does anyone know what time the Time/CNN polls are out?
Gen Sherman said
Don't know if anyone has read this yet, but now apparently DEMS are not just socialist, commies, fascist, terrorist, but now you can add godless to the list according to Dole's campaign. It is getting ugly.
------------------
They really are bringing out the greatest hits this year.
"Liberatarianism is not dead, or even napping."
It's just irrelevant. Except in places like Montana where it might actually work.
Pete - Colorado? Trees? You've apparently never been here before. Trees in the mountains sure, but the rest of the state is a desert.
@ thomas and others -- That's the whole thing though. Already, the McCain camp has "leaked" that Palin is 'going rouge'. If the election is a landslide, or even close to it (let's say that Obama wins by 8 points even, 53% to 45% with 2% other) I see McCain's camp and the more fiscally conservative people blaming Palin and her fundamentally conservative side, while Palin is already set to -- according to their own campaign -- jump in and blame McCain's side of the campaign.
If this all occurs, for 2012 if Palin gets the nod, I would be floored if that doesn't cause some sort of rift. She has a magnetism to the uneducated, gun-totin', religious voters that is undeniable, but she has the exact opposite effect on the majority of educated, 'regular' people if her approval ratings are any indication.
It would be extremely hard for any party to win a presidency with the main person running is getting a 52% disapproval rating, even if that election takes place a while from now (our first impressions tend to stick), so I think that if she is the choice, there will be a strong cry by the republicans to run someone more in the middle, especially if Obama's first 4 years aren't a total disaster.
Fascist Thugs.
Don't kid yourselves folks...this is Palin's crowd. If elected, she would probably put her creepy brown-shirt husband in charge of Homeland Security. Then, these sort of protestors would simply "disappear" in a manner reminiscent of Nazi Germany or Pinochet's Chile.
Take back our Democracy, America....VOTE OBAMA!
Ooooof:
"He has lost his brand as a maverick," Rep. Chris Shays, a Connecticut Republican and co-chairman of the McCain campaign in that state, told the Yale Daily News in the latest criticism. "He did not live up to his pledge to fight a clean campaign."
Sounds like Obama is going to use Powell and Buffett and other endorsers in the infomercial tonight.
Where did you hear this? Today's WaPo reported that it will feature many of the ordinary Americans Obama has met during his campaign, and then maybe a piece from tonight's rally or some such.
I hope Palin gets the nod in 2012. She'll never win major office, she has one of the few unforgivable flaws in any politician:
She reads her own press releases. She's way too into her own self-image to acknowledge her faults.
We need to leave the rhetoric (e.g. calling people brownshirts and fascists) out of this. That is lowering yourself to the level of the wingnuts on either side (yes, Virginia, there are crazies on both sides).
This was unfortunate, but with McCain losing and tempers flaring, it is not so surprising. Personally, I do not understand what the Garcias intended by trying to wear Obama shirts into a McCain rally - it is not very respectful to do this in my view (from either side), although this does not justify what happened.
I do think McCain has made a mistake in not stopping this sort of thing (including many of the outbursts). Obama has done well with his "we do not need to boo, we need to vote" quip to quell such outbursts.
>> The key will be for a moderate Democrat to break away now and start a moderate party that includes disaffected Republicans. Maybe guys who got booted for not being right wing enough and so have nothing to lose.
Lieberman ... but not so damn old. Although I think he'd need a serious backer to jump from the GOP too. Ironically someone not unlike McCain ... but again not so damn old. Firing up a new party would take a huge amount of time and energy. As lively as these old birds are, and they certainly could help, the amount of energy (and ultimately cash) that is required is huge.
Again, to get back to Ross Perot, he sort of did this. But he just didn't have the personality to take the public beating you need to endure in politics. Plus it was more about Ross and less about an idea.
Here's another interesting tidbit about today's McCain rally (and thanks for the great posts recently, Nate):
Last Friday afternoon the McCain campaign called the univesrity at which I teach, here in Broward County. WEe have a new basketball arena which can seat 4400 or so and they wanted to use our site for the rally. Plans felll through Monday morning, though I am not sure why. There could have been any number of factors---maybe the lumber yard site in West dade better suited their present campaign needs). But I've been wondring with the small McCain crowds that have been reported, if our site would have looked too empty.
Obama will broadcast part of his 8 PM half four tonight live from the BankAtlantic Center in Broward County--an interesting choice, considering Broward's history in 2000.
Word verification: encito
I love how people are acting appalled, pretending that this sort of thing doesn't happen at their own rallies.
You're all the same, suckers.
LOL, how prophetic. The WV for last post was "ching". :)
goatdan said...
"If this all occurs, for 2012 if Palin gets the nod, I would be floored if that doesn't cause some sort of rift. She has a magnetism to the uneducated, gun-totin', religious voters that is undeniable, but she has the exact opposite effect on the majority of educated, 'regular' people if her approval ratings are any indication."
Palin's anti-intellectual stance does not bode well with Generation Y.
We're in control now. Don't you forget it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vknHKTy1MLY
Here in SF there are a sizable section of lefties who are sympathetic to libertarianism. I just don't get it. To me its just more of the same Ayn Rand mumbo jumbo that was debunked eons ago, and the cult of the individual is anathema to the fair and sustainable society that the left supposedly believe in
Our elder Statesmen is none other than Charles Krauthammer
Then you're fucked, because that guy can't write a coherent sentence to save his life.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this on a previous thread, but I thought it was pretty awesome.
Last night on the Colbert Report, Stephen Colbert had the Socialist Party candidate for President come talk to him for a few minutes. He said, "Barack Obama is not a socialist ... he's the farthest thing from it." I know this will never happen, but I think it'd make a great YouTube-style ad.
I mean, if you can't trust a Socialist to tell you whose policies are Socialist...whom can you trust?
*Voted absentee (in the mail by 2-day-air yesterday) for Obama in PA - woowoo!* Word: luous (?)
it's simple really.
this election is a clear choice between red state america vs blue state america, or the united states of america.
i know which i'm choosing.
>>this election is a clear choice between red state america vs blue state america, or the united states of america
underneath our clothes we're all purple!
chittin
Re: the GOP schism discussion:
CNN has abit on the subect.
The quickest cure for libertarian beliefs is to attempt to live under them. It just doesn't work, especially for the angst-ridden Ayn-Rand-enamored wannabes. ;-)
The only guy I can think of that has the money, name recognition, and national pull to start a moderate party that would be immediately successful (instead of building it from the ground up over a couple of decades) would be Bloomberg.
The problem with third parties is that they are usually either about one guy (Green party and Nader in 2000, Perot and the Reform Party in the 90s) or they are fringe (Greens, Libertarians, etc now).
But if there was ever a time in the recent history of the nation when a real moderate third party could have some influence this would be it. Yes defenitions of moderate differ, and so it would be hard to hold everyone in the coalition every single year, but thats true of any party.
It would be all about framing the arguement.
FORGET PALIN'S "INEXPERIENCE."
HER "INEXPERIENCE" is NOT her problem. She is NOT STUPID.
HER PROBLEM is "IGNORANCE."
The woman has NEVER thought about the USA, she has NEVER thought about SCIENCE, she has never considered America's place in the world, she has NEVER thought about economics or society or POLITICS. She KNOWS NOTHING - way MORE IMPORTANTLY she UNDERSTANDS NOTHING!
Four more years of cramming her mind with FACTS will do nothing to overcome her monsterous lack of INTEREST in the WORLD.
check out http://thepage.time.com/
it has a brilliant reivew of the mccain strategy (and the message I have been pushing for a month on why he is failing).
I'm rather sure that Ron Popeil and Tony Little will be hosting tonight. But they may be introducing Warren Buffett and Colin Powell play Jenga.
I think you'd be guaranteed some votes if you just put President Bush on the screen and put in flashing letters, "Bushed."
Word verification: unglindu
definition: what's happening to McPalin
Would it be too much to ask that RCP list their polls in chronological order?
I've averaged the results of the past 8 presidential elections and OH is 6% more republican than PA.
The widest deviations include the 84 rout of Walter Mondale in OH and the competitive 76 and 96 performances of Carter and Clinton whose OH numbers were less than 3% more republican than their PA numbers.
Currently in polls Obama performance in PA is about 5% greater than his performance in OH according to RCP or 538.com polling averages.
PS. Given the public spate between 538.com and RCP it's somewhat ironic that RCP averages in OH and PA give out higher numbers for Obama than those of RCP
"but thats true of any party."
You are ignoring the fact that we already have two moderate parties. Look at the differences we are arguing about here: a few percentage points of taxation, whether or not a very small percentage of the population gets legal marriage recognition.
In the scale of real political options, the Democrats and Republicans are practically touching each other. I'm not saying there isn't some real, important separation, but there is no room for an entire party in between.
The really perverse thing about this is that, while those fringe Republicans are obviously angry, it's not really clear WHY they are angry. And the sad truth is that they are angry about their economic situation and the change and progress of the world. They are angry about the consequences of the GOP policies, but brainwashed into blaming Sen. Obama for that. There is an immense amount of self-hatred going on, of blissful ignorance, of cheerful resentment. The whole GOP base has turned into a self-deluding hypocritical mob on par with the gay-bashing closeted social conservatives, the real socialists Sarah-Palin-style, the real radicals, not communists or islamists but the new kind of American fascists.
please people get a life...you have been brainwashed by the media and Obama's campaign machine. Not all Dems are socialists but he sure is! in 1959 cuba wanted change, in 1992 Venezuela wanted change...look what they got...don't be sheep in a herd listen to what your man says...resdistribution of wealth, terrorist ties, antisemitic statements...open your eyes...
Just want to make sure you all know that Obama will be with Jon Stewart on The Daily Show tonight on the Comedy Channel at 10pm Central. Be sure to watch!
Yeah, it sucks that people at the rally were jerks, but there's also that video of the Upper West-Siders yelling at McCain supporters and giving them the finger. Hardly our finest hour.
Yeah because, y'know, death threats and starting a riot ar just like yelling and giving the finger.
Obama's supporters are so in control that McCain's crew has to make up a story about a girl getting assualted by an Obama supporter.
I think brownshirts isn't technically accurate. It's more liker the mobs that Hitler instigated into Krystalnacht. But it's the right sentiment.
Some interesting history and perspective on ballots and the perils of voting.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/13/081013fa_fact_lepore
Huffington Post has the stuff buried on the possibility of Powell and Buffet in the infomercial tonight.
That is exactly what they should use the time for, and this campaign almost always gets it right. I expect it is true...
someone mentioned it earlier and i cant figure it out either
RAS has mccain leading on ecoomy. taxes and SOCIAL SECURITY. i cant help but think that they are doing something to those numbers.
any one see a flaw or has america lost more of its already scarce marbles
O’ Grand Old Party! Whither thou goest?
Goatdan (welcome) wrote: "does anyone else see the Republican party fracturing after this for the next election?”
I do not see the Rep Party fracturing I see in re-aligning.
It will return to its roots of being the Party of aspiration of upward mobility brought about by Private Growth.
It will shed its Wall Street wing. The rich capitalists have become too dependent on government protection and they live in deeply blue states. Let the problems of the financial services industry be left to Governors Corzine and Patterson and Arnold's successor, along with all those Democratic Senators.
The coming recession will hit the financial services industry the hardest and the states that will feel it the worst will be NY, CA, NJ, CT and MA. The Bluest of the Blue! More's the pity!
The millions of lives that are dependent upon the Wall Street teat is now the Democrat's problem. I wish you luck governing and building a coalition with that Albatross around your neck.
Meanwhile, the GOP will emphasize the values of Main Street and Sam's Club, while welcoming the ambitious like Joe the Plumber and Tito the Builder.
We will continue to stand for a traditional kind of morality in opposition to the libertine morals of Hollywood and the Culture of Death of the Democratic Party.
The Republicans represent the best of a proud tradition that stands in awe of American power and sees the nation as a force for good. As McCain puts it: We are not victims of history, we make history! And we make it for the good.
Iraq will ultimately be seen as a tremendous success. Having a base in the heart of the Middle East will help us fight the transcendent evil of our time – radical Islam. The frank recognition of the threat by the Republican Party and its determination to fight it will serve to diminish the Democrats in opposition as the Party of weakness and defeatism. The parallel to the Fall of the Soviet Union is already palpable.
George Will, Peggy Noonan, Colin Powell are dead to us -- Apostates that lacked the capacity to embrace the change within their own party and see the virtue of its traditions and its grounding principles. They have abetted their traditional enemy and have done so for the mess of pottage that is the Obama campaign.
Our new spokesmen are a gal name Sarah and guy name Joe. Our elder Statesmen is none other than Charles Krauthammer, who alone among the polemicists this year spoke with a clarity of vision and understood the stakes and principles involved in this election and held true to them.
We are not a Party in schism; we are a party in resurgence. In a crucible of fire, steel is forged. We are finding our way once more.
McCain – Palin ’08!
McCain – Palin ’12!!!
The thing about the primaries is that they generally work - if Palin is the most electable Republican she will win the nomination. If not - she won't.
If she is truly unintelligent, or at least incurious in the George Bush way, then Republicans will sniff it out and throw their vote to someone else.
20 debates over 6-8 months will generally weed out the weak.
"you have been brainwashed by the media and Obama's campaign machine. "
whereas your post reveals lots of orginal and critical thinking, and does not sound anything like McCain talking points.
To answer a comment made earlier, I'm not a Labour Party staffer but a Liberal Democrat volunteer, and we know an awful lot more about GOTV than Labour do. And Labour were not massively ahead in 1992 before the misguided Sheffield rally - the shift away from Labour had been noticeable for two weeks.
But why do I, as a Brit, care about Obama being elected?
Well, he's a Liberal, as far as I can judge - I reckon he could sign up to "We exist to build a free and fair society in which none shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity" pretty easily, and he would probably agree with Gladstone that "The principle of Liberalism is trust in the people qualified by prudence; the principle of Conservatism is mistrust of the people qualified by fear" and declare himself on the side of Liberalism.
Since I'm in favour of Liberal government all over the world, I'm in favour of Obama. But that argument probably applies to almost any plausible Democrat candidate - I also favoured Kerry, Gore, Clinton, etc.
Who is POTUS matters to Brits because there are major areas of economic, foreign and military policy in which the British government's freedom of action is constrained by the limits of US policy. For the UK government to change policy the way I would like it to demands that the neocons and high priests of unregulated capitalism are removed from the leadership of the US, which ain't gonna happen with McCain and looks as though it probably would do under a Deomcrat President.
The thing about Obama, though, is that he is a transcendent leader. People like Adenauer, JFK, MLK, Gorbachev, Gandhi, Churchill or Mandela were capable of speaking for people in many lands when they were speaking to their own people.
Of course the expectations are way too high: the practicalities of US politics ensure that he will not be able to accomplish half as much as anyone would wish, least of all himself.
But a man capable of realising that the time was right in the middle of a primary campaign to propound a major thesis on the complexities of race in US politics and deliver something as powerful and resonant as the more perfect union speech is a man who can remind all of us about the basic purpose of civic society in an uncertain era when political establishments across the globe have mostly lost touch with their peoples and have become trapped in the endless cycle of pushing the odd economic button in the hope that something might happen but otherwise doing very little.
All of us need to know that politics is not a waste of time, that there are dreams worth pursuing, that the world can be made better if only we have the courage and the will to achieve it. Obama has the gift of being able to articulate those dreams in ways which make it seem almost obligatory to pursue them because it would be a denial of our hmuanity not to - and humankind needs that.
"Based on what my sister-in-law forwards, this is no surprise. I'm amazed nobody's been murdered, the most reported trouble being stealing yardsigns and vicious invective. Yet."
The Democratic Party chairman of Arkansas was murdered at Democratic headquarters there in August. Even then it was clear in which direction McCain was taking his campaign.
Never have squiggles so delighted me. Look at the Gallup widget at the base of the page. You will see that Barack squiggled up and McCain squiggled down. While everyone else is saying this contest is close and so forth, I say that Barack is winning while the MSM bloviates.
From my blog http://stephencrosehome.blogspot.com
So let me get this straight:
- McCain and Palin should be held responsible for the actions a few crazy/racist/whatever people who show up to their rallies? People who have not specifically been invited, nor been sought-after.
- But Obama should not be held responsible for his own friends' actions/believes? People like William Ayers and Rashid Khalidi, with whom Obama has a personal relationship.
OK, just so we're clear.
Rasmussen
Michigan
O-53
M-43
Minnesota
O-55
M-43
Alaska
M-57
O-41
The Democratic Party chairman of Arkansas was murdered at Democratic headquarters there in August. Even then it was clear in which direction McCain was taking his campaign.
Yeah, I'm sure that was a direct order from McCain
actiolve
thanks ANT.
The creation of a moderate party won't be necessary if Obama does, indeed, work to find common ground between the majority of Dems and Reps. That vast middle ground has people of reason who can understand compromise. If actual compromise can be reached, with explanations of why a policy was chosen, middle America will be happy.
As for the fringes on both sides, they'll just never be happy so f@!k 'em.
Nate,
At this point, what is the legitimate PURPOSE of national tracking polls?!?! Just to create false security or alarm? I think they should stop national trackers 5 days before the election as by then there is no "narrative" to create or watch- it's 100% all about the swing states electorate - and the NUMEROUS state polls for that are more than sufficient.
Rick Sanchez - one of the pleasant surprises this cycle - listing with some outrage in his voice - case after case of voter purging going on around the country.
Very nice...
(wv: frustr)
"McCain and Palin should be held responsible for the actions a few crazy/racist/whatever people who show up to their rallies?"
No. They are not responsible for their followers' actions (though I do think they've been stoking them). But when someone screams "Kill him!" or "Terrorist!" or the n-word about Obama, and it's very clear that McCain/Palin hears it while speaking, and totally ignores it, they are condoning these "fringe" people.
Especially considering that McCain has specifically said (at the last debate) that he has personally repudiated every improper comment made by his supporters/surrogates about Obama, this is the key.
@thomas
"The thing about the primaries is that they generally work - if Palin is the most electable Republican she will win the nomination. If not - she won't.
If she is truly unintelligent, or at least incurious in the George Bush way, then Republicans will sniff it out and throw their vote to someone else."
Umm... your post carries its own rebuttal. You do realize the person that the "George Bush way" was named after went through the primaries, too? ;-)
If Michigan is only +10 for Obama I'll eat my hat (which would be #3 for those counting at home) lol
MN looks good for Obama and Alaska, well it's Alaska :)
Thanks for the update Ant!
Ras also shows Begich leading Stevens 52-44 in the AK Senate race.
@ Matthew -- While those few crazy people may not have been specifically invited, they have not been discouraged in any way from the McCain / Palin campaign. I personally think that the McCain camp is worried that if they were to try to snuff out the racists in their attendance that they may lose the racist vote.
And, with an article that someone else linked to at RedState earlier in this thread, Republicans apparently believe that the racist vote is more than 6% of the people in this country.
I'd argue that yes in fact, those votes are definitely sought after by the McCain camp right now.
I am also in the boat that the numbers from Ras are little strange.
McCain leading on the economy and social security and only national security by 11?
I don't believe he fully cooks his books but I mean, that smells like an outlier to me. Every other poll has it Obama by 7-20 points on the economy and social security.
I believe that the national trackers are now becoming irrelevant. Going in different directions for no rhyme or reason. Gallup goes up, Ras goes down. Seems like the samples are just different people and not really a snapshot of the electorate. Ras overstates Bush's % in 04, what's not to say he isnt doing it again?
PEW was spot on last time , where does it benefit them to put out a poll at +15 if not true? Seems it's just a matter of who ur sampling. Different people tell different stories.
matthew-
try telling the WHOlE truth next time.
mccain FUNDED Khalidi.
i dont knoiw who is more of an idiot you or mccain-the lie teller or the lie spreader-
-- But Obama should not be held responsible for his own friends' actions/believes? People like William Ayers and Rashid Khalidi, with whom Obama has a personal relationship.--
Have it your way, let Obama be blamed for Ayers being considered by both conservatives and liberals as a major force in education reform during the period his path has crossed Obama's. That's the only relationship he's had.
And McCain gave Khalidi over a million dollars from a foundation he chairs. Oops.
Better trolls, please.
(spolob)
Yes - if Obama enacts moderate policies then he would forestall the creation of a true moderate party, and likely win the next election with '84-esque margins.
But the question is - CAN HE? Can he reign his own party in. They are going to going on a legislating spree, and one that is expensive. To think otherwise is ludicrous - they have essentially been out of power for 14 years now. they arent going to use their turn to enact the others guys stuff.
So will Obama have the guts to veto his own party or the political ability to stop them in the first place?
Long time reader, first time poster.
Re: Palin in '012 (as some of her supporters say). I'd pay to see Ms. Mooseburger in a debate with Rudy G. Those of us in NYC remember how gracious he was to listeners in his weekly radio shows. NOT!
word ver diardo-An Hispanic suuporter of Obama?
What we could be seeing is a shift in some Obama states (Washington, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Illinois) because Obama has moved his resources and his ground game is so good that now each state is going like +1-3 for McCain, which is why the national polls are moving. In the long run, this means nothing for McCain, because he won't win those states anyway.
"Especially considering that McCain has specifically said (at the last debate) that he has personally repudiated every improper comment made by his supporters/surrogates about Obama, this is the key."
Yeah, well maybe he ought to publicly repudiate the comments for a change . . . yes, he did it once. Not nearly enough.
Again it seems to me rasmussen is throwing the repubs some bones with his latest Virgina, Pennsylvania, and Michigan polls.
The Alaska Rasmussen poll is the ONLY one of 26 polls today showing McCain leading.
If the GOP steals this election again, i will be a part of the next civil war here in US. i for one will not stand for these tongue talkers using the white house to bully america again.
its sad that the GOP has become a mouthpiece of the radical right christian cults. GOP used to stand for less government and less intrusion into our lives. now if they don't like something they bring in jack boot thugs to enforce their fascism. they dont like state rights when they twist the bible into their sick world. you dont want abortion in alabama? fine, but dont tell me i cant have medical cannibus here in California, or the right for a sane end of life in Oregon!
anyone who is a clear thinking GOP member should be ashamed of what your fascist party has become.
Inkstain, the differences between the parties is vast. Its the difference between the basic ideology of success.
** Republicans for the most part seek to succeed by tearing down their opponents. Democrats seek to succeed by building hope in its constituents.
** Republicans want to focus on telling people what they can't (or shouldn't be able to) do. Democrats want to focus on telling people what they can and should be able to do
** Republicans aim to deny people the opportunity to vote by enacting stricter identification laws under the spectre of "voter fraud". Democrats want to make sure EVERYONE has the right to vote, regardless of their ideology or political affiliation
** Republicans preach strict interpretation of the constituion, yet conveniently ignore that the constitution does not leave room for religious ideology in the interpretation of laws. Democrats seek to interpret the constitution in a way that does not deny fundamental liberties to anyone based on arbitrary criteria
** Republicans use fear, hatred, misunderstanding and mistrust to divide people. Democrats preach diversity, tolerance, understanding and hope in an effort to bring people together.
So fundamentally, I disagree that we have two moderate parties. The Democrats are moderate, the republicans COULD BE moderate. It's not that there is no room in the middle for another party, it's that the Republican party we have that extends center right all the way to the authoritarian right needs to cast out it's extreme members and return itself the center.
"Becky Sharp said...
>>this election is a clear choice between red state america vs blue state america, or the united states of america
underneath our clothes we're all purple!"
If this Election goes violent, that may proove an acurate predicion.
"he'll be accusing me of being a secret communist because I shared my toys in kindergarten."
-Obama
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/29/obama-sharpens-tone-again_n_138915.html
Great new Obama ad hits McCain on Sarah Palin: HIS CHOICE.
I think this is a pretty good little story. It really emphasizes what horrendous judgment John McCain showed by selecting Palin.
I also think it could be a very effective commercial in stemming any movement towards McCain.
So let me get this straight:
- McCain and Palin should be held responsible for the actions a few crazy/racist/whatever people who show up to their rallies? People who have not specifically been invited, nor been sought-after.
- But Obama should not be held responsible for his own friends' actions/believes? People like William Ayers and Rashid Khalidi, with whom Obama has a personal relationship.
OK, just so we're clear.
--Matthew
The first sensible mattkew I have seen on this site! Thanks for pointing out the hypocracy.
10 point michigan is a bone?
For a detailed account of the whole ridiculous Khalidi nonsense, see:
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/10/hbc-90003779
Here's the bottom line:
Of course, Khalidi has been involved in Palestinian causes. McCarthy ought to ask John McCain about that, because McCain and Khalidi appear to have some joint interests, and that fact speaks very well of both of them. Indeed, the McCain–Khalidi connections are more substantial than the phony Obama–Khalidi connections McCarthy gussies up for his article. The Republican party’s congressionally funded international-networking organization, the International Republican Institute–long and ably chaired by John McCain and headed by McCain’s close friend, the capable Lorne Craner–has taken an interest in West Bank matters. IRI funded an ambitious project, called the Palestine Center, that Khalidi helped to support. Khalidi served on the Center’s board of directors. The goal of that project, shared by Khalidi and McCain, was the promotion of civic consciousness and engagement and the development of democratic values in the West Bank. Of course, McCarthy is not interested in looking too closely into the facts, because they would not serve his shrill partisan objectives.
" slicknickshady said...
Again it seems to me rasmussen is throwing the repubs some bones with his latest Virgina, Pennsylvania, and Michigan polls."
Lol. They get the bones... but no meat.
COOOOOODER!
We turtles is gonna make shur Obaima ain't gonna win in er state!
He's a terrorist, homosexal,socalist,muslim,jew lover,communist just lik ADOF!!!
VOTE for the reel AMIRKA vote MCCAIN/PAILIN 08!
It's ironic to think about George W. Bush's address to the Republican National Convention via video link when he railed against the "angry left." Just look at how civilized the Obama campaign is, compared to the hatred and malice spewing from the right.
These angry mobs are frightening. We need to break the backs of the Republican Party by racking up huge majorities this election.
We need to condemn their vile hate that they are actively breeding at their rallies. This cannot be a good thing for America.
JOHN MCCIAN AND I SARA!
YYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
GIT ER DONE!
Stand up with firmness and determination. Come on, let's get out the vote!
I'm not surprised.
During the Elian Gonzalez saga, I had two friends threatened by an angry mob when they agreed to talk to CNN outside the house and said the boy should remain with his father.
As a Cuban American, this deeply offends me. Our families came to this country because they lacked things such as freedom of speech. Unfortunately, freedom of speech is something more than a few Cuban exiles seem to have some trouble with.
To those two Obama supporters, keep on fighting the good fight. Don't be intimidated by the fossils.
This all seems rather tame to what happened 4 years ago. Remember the "Free Speech Zones"?
How does McCain honestly expect to lead a country having run an extremely divisive-to-the-point-of-racism campaign? How does he, after all this ugliness, face the nation and say, "I want to lead you all." This country is getting more and more diverse and what we're seeing in the McCain/Palin crowds are people who want to stop that wave of change. Anything akin to progress seems to be scorned by them. This idea of equality, of freedom, is not socialism. But fighting against it, as the McCain/Palin crowds seem to want to do, is more in line with bin Laden's way of thinking. This thug/bully/asshole mentality will get us nowhere.
"So let me get this straight:
- McCain and Palin should be held responsible for the actions a few crazy/racist/whatever people who show up to their rallies? People who have not specifically been invited, nor been sought-after.
- But Obama should not be held responsible for his own friends' actions/believes? People like William Ayers and Rashid Khalidi, with whom Obama has a personal relationship.
OK, just so we're clear."
Matthew Speaks truth!! Matthew you have inspired me more than any man ever has since Joe the Plumber! Join with me a bond Republican love!
IF OBAMA WINS ISA gonna let my chicken fuck me fer once!
OBAMA and his terorist friends.
STALIN and AYERS- you librals need to reasd the druge report!
Obama even shared his toys when he was a kid just like the commonist he is!
Tony Garcia and Raul Sorando are my new heroes! I hope the media picks up on these guys.
I'm a member of the Angry Left. I wear that badge with pride.
@ant
Any NM numbers at Ras?
*hadom* "John McCain hadom right where he wantedom"
I agree overall, this is more tame than it was 4-years ago. However, any animosity this year carries with it hundreds of years of racial division in this country. We need to be vigilant, especially days after a massive neo-nazi murder spree was broken up.
I think the tersest possible summary of the problem with Sarah Palin '12 is this clip.
Okay Mammoth. That's enough :)
(nice work though)
"No. They are not responsible for their followers' actions (though I do think they've been stoking them). But when someone screams "Kill him!" or "Terrorist!" or the n-word about Obama, and it's very clear that McCain/Palin hears it while speaking, and totally ignores it, they are condoning these "fringe" people."
Exactly. Just as they are responsible for contacting the media to slant the Ashley Todd story, and for trying continually to trade on Obama's racial identity by portraying him as a socialist, bomb-throwing, suspicious Other. We're not in a court of law where we have to prove these connections beyond a reasonable doubt. We're talking about the undertone of a campaign, what the message ultimately means, and how it is interpreted by the public, especially the lunatic fringe. Just as most analysts agree that Willie Horton helped defeat Dukakis by preying upon white racial fears, McCain needs to take responsibility for the themes of his campaign, which are several orders of magnitude worse than GHW Bush's tactics.
Anyone who thinks Obama is the next Castro is just living in a paranoia-induced false reality. As a Cuban-American I'm used to this sort of attitude, and in some ways understand why the old Cubans who lived through the revolution would act this way, but overall they were just traumatized by the experience into paranoia. Younger Cuban-American immigrants don't really have this attitude.
Obama is in no way rising to power the same way Castro did (unless he's assassinating high-level officials without any of us realizing it yet), and it's silly to fear that he could ever turn the US into anything resembling Cuba. That's really directed to all the conservatives who fear it, not just the Cubans. Read up a little about any REAL commie's rise to power and also remind yourself of our constitution before you decide we're undergoing some revolution.
LISTENS TO PETEKUNT hesa knows the truth!
Why do yas thinks there isa new story every day...
When OBAIMA is not on the road, he has diners with OSAMEA BIN LADEN!
I <3 Tony Garcia. What's Cuban for hutzpah?
- McCain and Palin should be held responsible for the actions a few crazy/racist/whatever people who show up to their rallies? People who have not specifically been invited, nor been sought-after.
- But Obama should not be held responsible for his own friends' actions/believes? People like William Ayers and Rashid Khalidi, with whom Obama has a personal relationship.
Wait... Obama incited Ayers to found the WU? My God! Even as a ten-year-old, he was a natural-born leader!
Stupid...
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