10.01.2008

In Contrast to House, Few Signs of Electoral Politics in Senate Bailout Vote

In opposition to the House, where essentially every representative in a swing district voted against the bailout bill (the exceptions were mostly in wealthy, investor-class districts), many senators in tough races were willing put their backing behind the measure.

Among those senators in races that might even vaguely be considered competitive (all the races on Swing State Project's list, including their snowball's-chance-in-hell category called "races to watch"), the only to oppose the measure were four Southern fiscal conservatives -- Liddy Dole, Roger Wicker, James Inhofe, and Democrat Mary Landrieu -- all of whom might well have opposed the bill even if they were running against Mickey Mouse. But Ted Stevens, John Sununu, Gordon Smith, Norm Coleman, Mitch McConnell et. al. all voted for the measure, and with an exception or two like McConnell, few had institutional imperatives to do so.

So what does this tell us?

a. Sens. Obama and McCain, who both voted for the measure, wield far more influence than any other politicians in America, including the President and the House leadership;
b. The "sweeteners" in the bill worked well enough for all sides;
c. The Senate and House have different institutional philosophies;
d. The Dow's performance over the past 72 hours scared them, and/or their constituents, into supporting the bill;
e. All of the above.

The complete tally follows.

AK  Stevens       AYE
GA Chambliss AYE
KY McConnell AYE
ME Collins AYE
MN Coleman AYE
MS WICKER NAY
NH Sununu AYE
NC DOLE NAY
OK INHOFE NAY
OR Smith AYE
SC Graham AYE
TX Cornyn AYE

Republicans -- Competitive Races: 9 Aye, 3 Nay (75%)
Republicans -- Safe: 25 Aye, 12 Nay (68%)

LA LANDRIEU NAY
NJ Lautenberg AYE

Democrats -- Competitive Races: 1 Aye, 1 Nay (50%)
Democrats -- Safe: 40 Aye, 8 Nay, 1 N/V (83%)

{Independents -- Safe: 1 Aye, 1 Nay}

Total Competitive: 10 Aye, 4 Nay (71%)
Total Noncompetitive: 64 Aye, 21 Nay, 1 N/V

149 comments

InkStain said...

Hey Nate, could you get someone at BP to do the statistical odds of a supposedly superior Cubs teams losing four straight playoff games by a combined 15 runs?

Julie Carter said...

C and D. Different philosophies and the fear o' god.

Terry said...

Saw your recent interviews. They were great, and you looked like you need to take the night off and get some rest. We can live without you for a few hours.

Dean said...

Nate,

I think now would be a good time to introduce the concept of "statistical independence" to relate the marginal probabilities of being a REP or DEM, and the conditional probabilities of then choosing to vote YEA or NAY.

Kristina said...

Slightly off-topic, but will 538 be updating their "today's polls" list to include the CNN battleground state polls and other national polls that came out after the Quinniapac polling was released earlier?

RedsManRick said...

As I look at summaries of the newly re-crafted legislation, I cannot help but think that what is going to get this billed passed is that it got loaded up with a bunch of pork -- 10s of billions of dollars for things which have nothing to do with helping restore confidence in the credit markets.

I'm not making a value judgment either way, but if McCain supports this, how in the world can he keep pointing out his crusade on pork?

AnotherMike said...

One other possibility. Senators, by virtue of representing an entire state, generally have a more moderate electorate than Representatives, who usually represent gerrymandered districts designed to keep incumbents safe. This particular bill tended to be opposed by the most liberal and especially the most conservative members of the house (for different reasons). Thus, more support in the Senate.

I also like "d" as an explanation.

Bay Area Resident said...

Today the Institute for Supply Management Purchasing Managers Index indicator fell sharply today, much worse than expected. This is worse than the 777 pt market drop on monday. Both congress and businesspeople are aware of these indices while much of main street isn't- congress knows what is coming and will pass the bill because at least when the recession comes they can say they tried everything they could.

The ISM index plunged to 43.5% in September from 49.9% in August. This is the biggest drop in the index since 1984. The drop surprised economists
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-sept-ism-manufacturing-index/story.aspx?guid={38771BDA-EC70-41C6-8365-A1DE37303BA3}&dist=msr_2

BenMasur said...

The New York Times reported that House members who'd been significant recipients of Finance Industry money were much more likely to vote for the bailout/rescue bill on Monday. Senate races cost much more than house races, generally, and the Finance Industry has more money than most.

It's not unreasonable to think that industry contributions played a role in the disparity between the House and Senate votes, regardless of the merits of the bills.

For the Times reportage:
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/among-bailout-supporters-wall-st-donations-ran-high/?scp=2&sq=finance%20industry%20House%20of%20representatives&st=cse

Rodney Peterson said...

The individual who text messaged me a death and stabbing threat against Bristol Palin and her unborn child has been reported to the Secret Service and is identified at my blog:

www.myspace.com/370392338

A 14 year old girl is raped when a California hospital admits a patient and his parole officer-what would happen to her in Sarah Palin's America?-same blog as above

OTF said...

Nate,

How about a polling update for today. The firs twas so early that it didn't include the avalanche of new polls this afternoon.

DCM in FL said...

NATE

you had a sock puppet blogging on the previous thread as 'Nate Silver' - very annoying since the poser managed to phool a few posters

can you install a filter or some control on these pests ?

worse than trolls...

nicesocks said...

Damn, Obama voted to bail out crooked corporations?

What happened to no quarter for that kind of stuff? These corps should die in the filth they created. Who cares if they tank? It won't hurt me if financial lenders go extinct.

Nicholas said...

It won't hurt me if financial lenders go extinct.

Yes it will.

James L. said...
This post has been removed by the author.
DCM in FL said...

RODNEY

you must be at the wrong site...

James L. said...

That link to SSP is broken; the correct link to SSP's Senate race ratings is available here.

Juris said...

It's not so much that the Senate and House have different institutional philosophies but that Senators and Representatives have different electoral incentives.

HR members have relatively homogeneous districts but also also subject to renewal of their terms every 2 years.

Senators have more heterogeneous districts (their states) and are subject to renewal of their terms every 6 years. (In the beginning, the Constitution also provided for indirect election of U.S. Senators -- they were elected by State Legislatures. This did indeed imply a different "philosophy," in which Senators were supposed to come from the more enlightened (and moneyed) class, and members of the House more from "the people.")

As a collective body, even with high incumbency rates and high reelection of incumbents, members of the House are more skittish, and more attuned to immediate interests of their (relatively homogeneous) constituencies. Members of the Senate may take a more long-term POV in part because only a third of them are up for election in any given cycle.

Rollbiz said...

"dcm in fl said...
RODNEY

you must be at the wrong site..."

Nah, probably just trying to pimp here to drive traffic. Therefore, no one should click that link unless we get a real explanation. No need to feed the traffic whores, there will be many more if we do...

DCM in FL said...

ROLLBIZ

agreed. DNFTT

Bay Area Resident said...

nicesocks,
Who cares if they tank? It won't hurt me if financial lenders go extinct.

Grow up please. With this new economic news, congress knows that if they DON'T vote for this bailout, when people like you lose their jobs and run out of unemployment insurance in the next recession, you will blame them and claim they SHOULD have voted for the bailout. Voters are fickle, and sadly, not that smart.

Aratina said...

Sweetened it was. Option B worked out quite well for Alaskans opposed to the former House rescue plan. Senator Lisa Murkowski put in a provision to exempt the self-employed tax on award payments from the Exxon case, which will bring immediate tangible benefits. I suspect that is why Stevens was able to throw his support behind it without too much of a worry even while in political limbo.

Dannylandulf said...

For a good time, visit the comments section at http://www.hedgehogreport.com/

effing hilarious.

guyduchasseur said...

Link for a full roll call of Senate votes?

RedHawksO4 said...

Goes to show that these guys will do anything to win. Disgusting...


More Couric-Palin Train Wreck

Brian said...

Brutal poll for M/P just dropped concerning VP:

http://abcnews.go.com/images/PollingUnit/1074a3PalinBiden.pdf

MATT J. H. said...

Can't get enough people to support the Bill, just load it up with $150,000,000,000 of giveaways for our trusted congressman.

What a country.

DCM in FL said...

GUY

for a rollcall of the senate votes try:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00212

interesting breakdowns by party, state, & aye/nay

DCM in FL said...

MATT

those 'extras' sure sound like 'earmarks' to me...

John McCain is such a maverick - did you know he was also a POW ???

Homespun1 said...

NATE,
What happened to Sean's on the road pieces. He had promised more after the debates. I really miss them. That series is the real story of the election in action. Have you noticed that some Jag Off at CNN has copied the idea, some freaking bus trip running from debate to debate talking to coffee shop patrons along the way.

More "On the Road" now!...please.

Go Sean, Go Nate, Go Obama.

DCM in FL said...

BRIAN

you are right. those ABC poll #'s are brutal for Palin...

they support the polling unfavorables trends that R2000 has been producing lately where her negatives outweight her positives.

Sarah is already a net drag on the ticket, and probably responsible for some of McCain's drop-off as well as her #'s slide down...
-----------------------------------
Views of Sarah Palin

Experienced enough / Favorable opinion / Understands enough complex issues
Now 9/7 / Now 9/7 / Now
All 35% 47% / 51% 58% / 46%
Men 35 50 / 52 58 / 45
Women 35 44 / 51 57 / 47
White women 40 52 / 59 67 / 52
Married women 41 45 / 58 60 / 52
Single women 26 42 / 41 51 / 40
Democrats 12 24 / 23 34 / 23
Independents 32 49 / 53 60 / 44

yiannis said...

Easily D.

People are digesting what the failures mean for them.

StonedLiberal said...

i have a small problem with A. i don't think it's a question of how much power Obama and McCain posses but rather where they can wield it. McCain has no pull in the house, where he has never been popular with the GOP delegation and that discord i believe resulted in the failure the other day. but in the senate, where he has been for so long and has had to work with his colleges and compromise occasionally, his ability to get things done are exponentially greater.

after saying all that, i believe all are true except C. not that C isn't true, i just don't believe it to be the cause of the failure in the house.

nicesocks said...

Nicholas, explain how? I don't depend on Oil to get around. I grow my own food, raise my own chickens, all within a city. I interact with a community that will protect each other should things not work out right.

You do know there are people who live outside the system? If hit by an economic recession, maybe I won't have access to the internet, I probably could do with cutting that addiction some. If hit by an economic recession I might not have deliveries of food rolling in to my city, but many people around the world eat far less (and in some ways better) than United States citizens do.

So maybe things I am used to, or accustomed to, might change. But it doesn't mean the end of me or my well being.

Bay Area Resisdent, you really think I will blame congress if I loose my job over this? No, I will blame long existing institutions that are clearly corrupt and now being revealed more and more so. We learned of Enron's shady dealings years back, we know the Walmart sucks up local economies, we know that Ford's unspecializing of labor was beneficial, but had disastrous results, we know many corporations ships jobs overseas or use near slave labor to manufacture goods.

And you want our government to bail out the cretins? When does the government come and bail out your mom and pop shop driven out of business by some gentrifying mega-corp? Your local hardware store that looses to an ace. Your local coffee shop that looses to a Starbucks.

We need to kill off these corporations. We need to end Coca-Cola and it's desire to put corn into everything.

Grow up. Learn about the world around you, Bay Area Resident. Then tell me if I need to grow up, or if you need to open your eyes.

EmonOkari said...

those ABC poll #'s are brutal for Palin...

The new Palin numbers remind me of 538's earlier projection of how adding Palin had about a 50/50 chance to give McCain a +3% boost, and the very same chance to blow up in his face for a -10% nosedive. The solution to that variable is beginning to take shape.

DCM in FL said...

HOMESPUN

Sean posted a Road report from Utah on Monday...

then he posted a humorous piece on Palin/Colbert yesterday

Sean is presumably still out in the Mountain West where it is not too late for him to provide some food for the beast tonight or in the am - hopefully with more photos as well as his insightful reporting from the ground...

or maybe he is out partying in SLC [not likely]...

more likely he is busy playing poker & has pocket nines...

Nate said...

Nicesocks-

Well, it will hopefully go towards providing your children a better education than you received, seeing as how you think lose is spelled "loose"....

Spare us the holier than thouh hippy crap...I'm as liberal as it gets and I'm fine with it because it broke my heart to hear my Grandma the other day when nearly a quarter of her life savings up and disappeared...

DCM in FL said...

'NATE' is a sock puppet

DNFTT

Mason said...

Rodney-
Your ramblings are mostly incoherent.

You are correct, however that Las Encinas has gone downhill since it was sold from private ownership.

Nate said...

Actually I'm not...I usually post as noiateerickson, but I forgot I was logged into my gmail account (which identifies me as Nate on this site...)

noiateerickson said...

See...here's what I usually post under...sorry for the confusion...

Zelbinian said...

In response to point c:

That's kind of how it's supposed to be. We're a weird amalgamation of a republic and a democracy. The House has shorter terms - 2 years - and so they are much more aware of how their constituents view their actions. This, in theory, causes them to voice the opinions of their constituents more directly and makes them the more "democratic" branch of the legislature. The Senate, in contrast, has 6-year terms, theoretically making it more likely that they are less concerned about re-election and thus tending to temper their constituents' needs more with how they really feel about an issue.

It's nice to see an occasion where this works as desired.

Bay Area Resident said...

nicesocks, you don't understand the issues here. Anybody who really understands and has seen the credit markets knows this is not a "bailout" (thats why they changed the wording), it is more of a contrarian investment that will likely cost tens of billions, maybe a month of iraq money, OR it will make money when all is said and done. What this bill does has almost nothing to do with BIG COMPANIES, it has to do with small companies who need their credit lines to make payroll and buy inventory. The big companies have billions in the bank, no worries for them. The fact that so many consituents think this is a fat cat bailout is an embarrassing statement of the ignorance of voters- this IS a bailout of mom and pop.

Today the ISM numbers crashed, I'm talking about a major crasheroo, worse numbers since 1984. We know now we will have a recession, its all just a matter of how deep it is. Are the republicans in the house still "CALLING PAULSONS BLUFF"? Its amazing how many yahoo posters who are so incensed about this rescue plan think the next great depression is NO BIG DEAL.

And you want our government to bail out the cretins? When does the government come and bail out your mom and pop shop driven out of business by some gentrifying mega-corp? Your local hardware store that looses to an ace. Your local coffee shop that looses to a Starbucks.

ctk said...

i notice that mitch mcconnell voted for this legislation.

this is where kentucky being completely and totally backwards in it's thinking will help bruce lundsford emmencely. how? because there are only two islands of non-conservative democrats (louisville and fayette county) that are going to vote for obama, lundsford is now free to whack mcconnell for bailing out wall street fat cats with the tax dollars of blue collar kentuckians without fear of hurting obama's chances here in the commonwealth because he's not winning anything other than jefferson county (louisville) and fayette county (lexington).

Wa7th said...

More high fructose corn syrup with a pretty red label, please. Now.

Homespun1 said...

That UTAH bit was the road to 270 series that nate is doing. I am talking about Sean's tripo across the country visiting battle ground states and organizaers in each city that he can make it to. The last i heard he had made it through Missouri and was stopping in MS for the debate and then would resume his stories a little catching up of the trip so to speak as the last post I remember was Omaha, NE.

Cheers to you.

Wilson said...

Does someone have a video of this?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/beyond/2008/10/obama-makes-mccain-very-uncomf.html

I would really like to see this. This should show the American people how a real president should act.

Liam Hedge said...

Wilson,

Video of that would be great, but you only really have to watch the debate to see the ridiculous contempt that McCain shows for Obama. It's really quite unprofessional and childish.

I really do wonder whether he has issues with his anger that surpass just being firey. Scares me to know he may get control of missle launch codes.

Does anyone believe that McCain didn't look at Obama in the debates because he wouldn't be able to do it and look presidential? The more I see him getting worked up the more I start to believe it must be the case.

Bryan said...

Jacoby Ellsbury

DCM in FL said...

HOMESPUN

you are wrong.

the Road report of UTAH posted Monday is signed by SEAN [not Nate]...

check for yourself - I did...

patience & research are both virtuous...

Jackie said...

Jacoby Ellsbury! (And Jon Lester!)

I think it's mostly D - the market drop in response to "nay" made a "yea" vote less politically suicidal.

I still don't know how to feel about the bailout. I'm not opposed in principle, but I'm afraid that there hasn't been enough time to include all the reforms that need to be included. The addition of these 'earmarks' is a little disheartening... although as an Obama supporter I'm a little amused that McCain couldn't keep those out.

Andy said...

Go Red Sox!

Hey Nate. I had an idea for you. Maybe you already thought of it. What if you tried to measure the effect of the Presidential race on down ballot races? Like since NC is now much more competitive for Obama, how does this affect Hagan's chances against Dole independent of the polls? Maybe you can use the Presidential race projection the same way you use the national tracker when state polling is sparse.

Just a thought. Keep up the great work!

DCM in FL said...

noiateerickson

thanks for switching names. we have been infested with sock puppets of late. glad you are not really a poser...

Homespun1 said...

dcm in fl,

arrogance? really? what is the point?

I was wrong about the "Road to 270" series being by Nate, ok I get it.

Unfortunately that still is not the freaking Series I am talking about.

You dredge that Utah crap into this in the first place. I am interested in the "On the Road" series that Sean was doing with hi photographer friend. They started in NV and then headed east. What I am trying to say is that the last report I remember seeing was from Omaha, NE and Seasn said he was on the way to MS for debate blogging and would catch the series up with reports between NE and MS, specifically MO.

I just can not compute the jerkiness of your post to me. Did it make you feel good?

cheers

Homespun1 said...

Ok, I just went back and found the last post from Sean in the "on the rad series", it was about Des Moines, IA. here it is http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/on-road-des-moines-iowa.html

cheers

DCM in FL said...

HOMESPUN

FWIW - Sean was live blogging from the debate in MS last Friday night

plus he posted one of his 'on the Road' travelogues earlier on Friday from Des Moines IA
--------------------------------------
7:15 CDT: [Sean] Nate's on NYC radio for a little bit and will be joining us soon (see preceding post) so I'll be getting this party started from Oxford, Mississippi.

We've somehow driven over 4,500 miles in the past two weeks. Between Denver, St. Paul, and the On the Road series, it's been exhilarating nonstop travel through this election landscape. Still, we're in a bit of a bubble away from blogs and most of the news coverage, and it seems that as we were visiting field offices and talking to volunteers and communications directors and precinct captains, the economy is entering an apocalypse. So, that's bad. Look for that subject to come up tonight.

Every place you go there's a different flavor, and no less so here. Brett has some great pictures of the crowds we'll be filtering out during the night. Thanks for spending the night watching the debate here at FiveThirtyEight.

There's More...


Contract Post

-- Sean Quinn at 7:15 PM 142 Comments...

=============================
On the Road: Des Moines, Iowa
=============================

PS - you can access all these previous posts, blogs & threads in the archives on the left side by subject or by date...

DCM in FL said...

HOMESPUN

crossed wires there on the posts.

ps - that was intended as humor, not a criticism... sorry for the lame witicism... it got lost in translation

Homespun1 said...

ok peace. Social justice, now and forever!

DCM in FL said...

HOMESPUN

FWIW, I am also looking forward to more from Sean on the road.

especially since Sean said he will be headed toward FL at some point - maybe sooner rather than later ???

Sean knows that GOTV in FL is a key to ensure an Obama victory.

IF the current FL polls are correct & hold up, then Obama wins & all the rest is gravy...

homunq said...

I'm going to take "c". Where "institutional philosophies" is a nice euphemism for "amounts of their own personal money in the stock market".

Am I accusing them of just voting their own personal pocketbook? Not consciously, but yes, I think that it tipped the scale for a good number of them. Not that there aren't good reasons on both sides; just that good reasons are also good cover for bad ones.

Homespun1 said...

I have seen your posts inviting him to join you in FL. Was it St. Pete's area? Cant remember. I am often viewing and only post when I get really excited or have a real question. I just dont have the v erve to post for the sake of posting like many of the satirist we have on here, i.e. Joe, etc.etc.

Homespun1 said...

Just a rambling muse here. Can you believe that we in America stand at the precipice of electing a bi-racial 40 something progressive born in Hawaii to the highest office in the land. For me this is so earth shattering. I know we have a long 30+ days to go, but the writing seems to be on the wall. I have not been able to sleep much since the conventions and the closer we get the more I go door knocking. My daughters and I and knocked on 520 doors so far this past month. God I love this stuff, as Michelle Obama said it makes me proud for the first time....in a long long long long time.

Kate said...

Homespun 1: it's because of the work that people like you and your daughters do that we have a chance to win this thing.

And I agree - it is completely earth-shattering - so much so that I won't believe it until I hear the networks call the election for Obama.

Wilson said...

Homespun1, I know what you mean. I still wonder if i'm dreaming.

What is more startling, we are electing someone smart and believes in science! Whoohooo!

DCM in FL said...

HOMESPUN

I am in the eastern edge of central FL - Volusia County on the Atlantic side. south of Daytona Beach, north of the Cape.

I didn't invite Sean to visit me per se, but I did encourage him to check out the GOTV effort in this area.

Volusia County is part of the infamous vote rigging/fraud in 2000 that gave us this disasterous Bush POTUS.

The I-4 corridor in central FL is the real swing section that will decide the EV winner.

Bill Clinton was here on Wednesday giving a rousing speech@ UCF.

Looks like FL really is in play. I also went into the local New Smyrna Beach DEM HQ today. It was hopping & everyone wanted lawn signs [out of stock].

That is where I recommended that Sean drop in. Plus the duel effort to unseat that crook, Tom Feeney [R]. Volunteers there are fired up & ready to go...

DCM in FL said...

INTRADE closed @ 65 Obama, 35 Mac

MATT J. H. said...

Listen up. Palen is gonna be tough for Biden tomorrow night. Watching her Alaskan debates, she uses her "Cuteness", her little girl charm to trash her opponents all the while smiling and being adorable.

Apparently she wasn't big on "Issues" in Alaska either, and it didn't matter. Biden must find a way to counter her "Little Girl Charm," show the public her incompetence, while at the same time being gentlemanly. That's tough.

On another note, Obama has reached his peak. The numbers today are a little ridiculous, Obama is not up as much as the Quinnapiac numbers would suggest. He had better get ready for the next 5 weeks cause the right wing attack machine is getting warmed up. Batton down the hatches folks, we're in the stretch run and were gonna need all hands on deck to get out every last vote on election day.

Tom said...

The main difference in the House and Senate reactions is not listed. The differences in constituencies, which I suppose you could classify as inherent institutional differences, appears to be the key factor here. House members represent relatively small constituencies of less than 700,000 people, often quite compact, often quite homogeneous in character. Senators represent entire states which are more likely to include widely divergent interests.

Typically the Senators from both parties will tend to be more centrist, or at least more open to bipartisan consensus-building than many of their House counterparts. The wings of the two parties---the ultra-liberals and ultra-conservatives---are not so heavily represented in the Senate as in the House. While there certainly have been outside-the-mainstream Senators like Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond elected in recent years, these types are much more likely to be found in the House than the Senate.

The difference in length of term is also a factor here, I think. Senators stand for election every 6 years, whereas House members are constantly seeking re-election due to having 2-year terms.

dominoid73 said...

Patriotic Drunk Rednecks for McCain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMn6HXV8z1E

Why we need to canvas, door knock, donate and do everything we can to elect Obama!

DCM in FL said...

MATT

the worst has already started here in FL. churches & 'christians' have ramped up their vicious, intentional lies that Obama is not only a muslim - but that he is actually the black anti-christ sent to destroy our country...

the GOPer desperation is palpable this week. I have heard this same story told to 3 different elderly women by alleged 'friends' in the past 72 hours.

this is the GOP attempt to depress voter turnout or swing the low-infos...

it is gonna get very nasty, but I hope it will backfire on them...

meanwhile here in FL, Obama has gone into heavy rotation with upbeat positive TV ads

EmonOkari said...

Many of the seniors I talked to in Florida this week are now more scared about the economy than they are of Obama (some of these are folks who RELY on the government's help). One elderly lady grumbled, "Shit...if he can fix this mess we're in, I don't care if he's Osama's cousin!"

Blame said...

Lol.

Just about everything Obama has done has been to one purpose - to spray on more teflon.

That is why he was so civilized in debate. He was grabbing all those voters who have been so paintakingly convinced that he is a black radicle.

"Black" is, in the mind, not a colour. It is a set of steriotypes, and Obama has been very carefull not to fit them.

By now linking Obama to the anti-christ just looks stupid. After the debates you can wave Wright around as much as you want. Emotionaly it will just not be posible to link them.

MATT J. H. said...

I'm trying to imagine what a Palin administration would look like. I'm sure the rest of the world looks at our country with disbelief. I live hear and cannot believe it. Palin is actually trying to turn herself into "Joe six pack" - After the last eight years there are people who want an average guy in the White House?

Someone please answer me, is our country as stupid as it appears?

John said...

Today's CNN polls are great news!!! FOR PRESIDENT-ELECT MCCAIN!!!!

Am I doing it right?

If anyone missed the carnage:

FL 51O-47M
MN 54O-43M
MO 49O-48M
NV 51O-47M
VA 53O-44M

I kid you not. Yesterday's battlegrounds of PA, MI, IA, and CO are no longer worth polling, and today's battlegrounds have all shifted blue in the latest CNN poll.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/01/battleground.polls/?iref=mpstoryview

StonedLiberal said...

Remember the post on the tongue jut?
McCain's interview yesterday has led me to believe it is definitely a liar's tell. First video when speaking about the negative ads about the Obama sex ed bill he is doing a lot of weird things with his mouth before finally relenting to the full blown repeated tongue jut.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/01/mccain-gets-testy-with-de_n_130801.html

Christin said...

Concerning "Debategate"

"Like Andrew Sullivan, I think that the Obama campaign has little to lose and everything to gain by encouraging the CPD to have Gwen Ifill to pull out of moderating the VP debate."

Nate. The proverbial "left half" of your brain is absolutely beautiful. I have the utmost admiration for this site. But on this particular issue, it was your constituency who provided the pearls of wisdom. Heed them. To include the words "I think" in your post was disturbingly out of character. Any moron can "think". What you do is far more valuable, and I don't know if we have a word for it. Remember: opinions are like a**holes. Everybody has at least one and most of them stink.

kmac23va said...

The "sweeteners" everyone is talking about were actually already passed by the House and Senate in slightly different forms (I think length of time was one reason...the Senate passed a year, the House two years). Rather than go to conference (the Senate couldn't pass a chopped-up version the House sent back as well) they added this onto the rescue bill.

Maybe it's because I pay more attention to what the Senate does, but the whole "sweetener" idea is bogus IMHO, because they would've passed regardless. You just know about it this time. And there are a lot of middle class families that should be glad, because the AMT patch is included in that, and since the AMT was never indexed for inflation, a lot of people making in the 50K-100K range would've gotten socked with a lot more taxes...if you count on your mortgage interest to get some money back like I do, that'd be obliterated and you'd owe more.

What they need to do is either eliminate the AMT (the GOP Congress did it in 1999 but Clinton veteod it) or fix it to index to inflation permanently. They have to budget like they will get the unpatched AMT money, knowing they won't, so it's always patched under non-paygo rules.

Blame said...

McCain has gone on record as supporting Gwen Ifill.

It would be imposible to find good reason to dump her even though GOP has telegraphed it's intention to blame her for a poor Palin performance.

Besides, any replacment would be blamed with the added argument thet she was faked into preparing for the wrong moderator.

It is imposible to find a single human being who can't be acused, with reasons, of bias. Gwen has the defense of a reputation for profesionalism. That is as good as it gets.

I doubt it matters. People will watch & listen. The comentators can spin all they like, just like the last debate.

flynnie said...

Can someone address the rollout of Karl Rove's plan to suppress voter turnout in swing states? They're laid out by Marty Kaplan in Huffington Post, and are happening now in Colorado, Virginia, Ohio, Florida and other swing states. "Why the debates wont' matter - hint, it's a felony." False absentee ballots, not enough ballots being delivered in college towns and dem neighborhood, and voters walking away. Black voters in Florida and Virginia being intimidated by calls threatening prosecution from non-existant "election commissions."

flynnie said...

Nate - Sorry about the Cubs. I am stupefied, since I watched the Nats sweep the Dodgers with Manny just a month ago.

fred said...
This post has been removed by the author.
fred said...

Cubs will find some pitching, I hope.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Obama up to 338 EV this morning WITHOUT NC.

Keep up the pressure, make this a transformational election. In the last one Carter only got 49 EVs, we need every EV to give Barack the ability to govern in this terrible time.

fred said...

Kristina-

Nate does have a day job working on stats for Baseball Prospectus. He will update the polling data today, who knows when. I am hoping for two updates, one in the morning with yesterday's polls and one tonight. In this period of change there is an argument for two updates a day, if the polling data is dense enough.

neil said...

anyone recommend some sites that will blog the debate tonight, apart from 538 of course.

p smith said...

If anyone has a direct line in to Nate, please ask him to find out from RCP why they are (all of a sudden) including ARG state polls in their state averages.

They have included ARG's polls showing McCain ahead in NC, VA and NV after months of having ignored ARG as an unreliable pollster. The result is that Obama's new leads in those states is significantly reduced.

Why the change of mind? ARG is still shit.

Otherwise last night's polls were hideous for McCain. His only option now is to take the race not just into the gutter but into the sewer.

neil said...

nobody around today? Up late toasting all those polls yesterday?

Looks like I'm here all on my lonesome. Fine, I'll get the chairs and tables ready for when the crowd starts turning up.

I'll get the coffee on. Anyone for muffins?

Scott Nolan said...

It is as simple as: six year terms rather than two year terms.

Seriously, roughly 1/3rd the senate is up for re-election, and most of those 1/3rd are not in competitive re-election fights.

The senate can afford to gamble on short term voter memory. The house cannot.

fred said...

p smith-

RealClearPolitics is a right wing liar site and as McCain slips further behind their lying stripes are showing. Anyone got another good site that updates often with all the polls? I want to quit giving RCP hits.

fred said...

Hi Neil-

Here now, leaving soon for a meeting. Can I have my coffee black?

fred said...

Let's all drink to yeaterdays national polling, but not get too lazy! We need to make sure we are up 20% by election day!

Obama went 10 for ten!

- Battleground (Obama +2)
- CBS (Obama +9)
- Diageo (Obama +5)
- Gallup (Obama +4)
- GfK/Roper (Obama +7)
- Ipsos (Obama +3)
- Opinion Research (Obama +7)
- Pew (Obama +6)
- Rasmussen (Obama +6)
- Research 2000 (Obama +10)

niedda said...

Obama expands its lead to 11 points 51 to 40 over McCain in the R2K tracking poll.

John said...

Today's GWU/Battleground tracking poll:

Obama 49
McCain 44

It was 48-46 yesterday.

fred said...

Very funny - Homer Simpson tries to vote for Obama in Ohio.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/02/homer-simpson-tries-to-vo_n_131119.html

fred said...

Amazing movement in Battleground, glad to see them join the party.

Anyone know whether their insane model was to be pro-McCain for the client or they really bought it? They sure are moving fast, so I am thinking the former...

niedda said...

Guys, this is a revolution, we're going to kick ass on November the 4th, it is going to a be Big change!!!

Blame said...

If this keeps going, how long before DEM & GOP shift all resorces to down ticket candidates?

fred said...

Blame-

The dems have no money to shift, Obama has it all. The repubs do have money at the RNC and may shift to try to protect the Senate. They are looking at being a complete frings party and that cannot be good.

Poker Samurai said...

---If this keeps going, how long before DEM & GOP shift all resorces to down ticket candidates?---

The RNC can't do this. They gain more in turnout for dowticket races spending money on McCain. The Democrat's can't really risk it. What's more likely is to see fund raising for Democratic challengers pick up and shift away from Obama.

Even though there's been a metric asston of money raised thusfar, neither side is swimming with free money they can afford to shift atm.

p smith said...

Research 2000 has two new polls that are not yet on RCP.

Indiana - McCain 46 Obama 45
Iowa - Obama 55 McCain 39

and today's zinger from Rasmussen

N Carolina - Obama 50 McCain 47

Tonight's debate could either accelerate the freefall or arrest the decline. The Republicans will desperately try to spin the debate either as bullying (if Palin falls apart) or as a resounding victory (if Palin manages to complete a grammatically correct sentence). Unfortunately for them, they have so enraged the media, that no one will help spin for them unless Palin actually performs well objectively (which I consider a near impossibility).

Matt said...

Wow, that's the first poll that has Obama reaching 50% in NC. Me like.

Poker Samurai said...

---Unfortunately for them, they have so enraged the media, that no one will help spin for them unless Palin actually performs well objectively---

Untrue. You don't understand the media. An Obama blowout is a terrible narrative for them. They will rally to Palin's defense regardless of what happens in an attempt to keep the race plausibly close for as long as possible.

It's not rocket science, you don't sell any Swiffers if the narrative isn't "anything can happen!"

CZ said...

So like so many, my sleep, work, and exercise has gone to hell and hand basket due to this site. Thanks Nate.

I think it is almost all but A. If one had opposed and the other supported it, there might be an arguement to make but without a split, we don't even know if they were leading or following (based on an analysis of the vote).

Some thoughts regarding other threads. I just received an email documenting voter purges in some key (and not key) states that appears to be spearheaded by Republicans. I am curious what you know about this and what effect you might think it has.

I also wonder if the following could occur:

1) That the inherent additions through under represented youth and minority vote don't come thorugh.
2) That the GOTV doesn't produce numbers beyond the poll due to its long impact on the electorate already being accounted for in the polls.
3) That some far left voters, sensing a landslide go back to give Nader a protest vote (-1,2,3%)
4) That, although you reasoned quite well that the Bradley effect doesn't apply, that perhaps it will.

Could all this spin aup to a -5% on the polls? Sucker punched once to often to be an optimist I suppose.

Blame said...

Fred.

Not totaly true - Obama did some joint fundraisers with the DNC. There was always money for downticket battles.

But is Obama only for Obama? He was always a loyal DEM before. If it's in the bag for him he might do a tour supporting other candidates.

I have always had a suspicion about this 50 state stratergy. Obama & Dean were never going to be satisfied just to win. They want to obliterate the GOP as a party.

Poker Samurai said...

---1) That the inherent additions through under represented youth and minority vote don't come thorugh.---

That's been the case forever, but it's pretty unlikely that AAs don't show up this time. The kids never show up, though, so that's a real concern.

---2) That the GOTV doesn't produce numbers beyond the poll due to its long impact on the electorate already being accounted for in the polls.---

This is less likely, I think. Obama's ground game has been outstanding, there's no reason to think that's built into most polling models. Add to this the benefit of his current position with early voting, and it's unlikely that his GOTV under performs, particularly in big machine states like PA, or Labor controlled states like MI.

---3) That some far left voters, sensing a landslide go back to give Nader a protest vote (-1,2,3%)---

As likely as McCain voters going to Barr because they think he can't win, unlikely to have much impact.

---4) That, although you reasoned quite well that the Bradley effect doesn't apply, that perhaps it will---

It's just so unlikely anyone would lie to a pollster about this in this election. It's just not that plausible that McCain is viewed as such a bad candidate that people would lie about it. Most racism in this race is of the "I'm voting for McCain because of...*insert non racist reason" variety. It's heavily rationalized, we're largely past the point of "I agree with Obama, but I can't vote for a black guy" open racism.

Real Joe said...



good morning guys

not a good morning for us :-(

ABC News/WashPost Poll: Palin Popularity Plummeting

Latest numbers show:

Six in 10 voters see her as lacking the experience to be an effective president, and a third are now less likely to vote for McCain because of her.

Dates conducted: Sept. 27-29. Error margin: 3 points

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll2_093008.html?sid=ST2008100103651&s_pos=list

Poker Samurai said...

---But is Obama only for Obama? He was always a loyal DEM before. If it's in the bag for him he might do a tour supporting other candidates.---

He just can't. Democrats are so terrified of losing another close election, that unless he's polling 90/10 he needs to fight every day as if he's behind. Axlerod would stab you with a plastic fork if he read that.

Sisyphus said...

I would like compare 2004 and 2008 polls, if you know site which does that..please post the link.

Jeremy said...

That weird Battleground poll that always had McCain ahead?

Well guess what, it's now Obama +5 (49-44).

joel said...

I don`t think cuteness will cut it in a presidential election but i`ll give Palin the edge on Biden there.
Palin will need to show some knowledge tonight and won`t be able to get by on cuteness or bs.
If she does a decent job without making a fool of herself she will stop the McCain freefall.
If she looks like the idiot she did with Couric Obama will take a double digit lead and McCain will have to go for another hail mary like dropping her and picking the most conservative person in the country to placate the base.
Either way I don`t think he can come back and win but maybe make it a bit closer, the networks want a close election and will do all they can to spin for McCain because if it`s an apparent blowout ratings will suffer.

Nick said...

I hate alot of these state polls out now. What has happened to these pollsters? I said yesterday that the Quinnipiac polls were extreme outliers. I think you can say the same about some of the CNN state polls too. It just makes everything hard to guage. I would feel better seeing Obama up +3 in Virginia and Ohio than seeing these outliers of him up 8 or 9. At least it would be more believable. I think believing in some of these polls are fools gold for the Obama camp. I dont think Obama will win Florida, Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, North Carolina, Missouri, or Neveda. The pressure is on him and his campaign to flip red states, not Mccain. All Mccain has to do is defend the Bush states, he doesnt need to flip any blue states and he could afford to lose Iowa and New Mexico. I think Colorado is key. Whoever wins Colorado wins the election. The Obama camp needs to keep at it and dont get complacent cos of all these recent polls.

IMHO said...

The slew of polls favoring BHO is not good news for McCain, but I am wondering how many of them have begun using likely voter models. I can't seem to find the likely/registered voter designation in the CBS/NYT poll.

Blame said...

The networks do indeed want at least the apearance of a close election, but if Palin screws up tonight that is out.

They will have to go for something else like "can the Republican Party survive?". I would imagine it is a question that Obama would love to stay to the forefront till November.

Blame said...

The polls are honest - and should have been predicted.

After Bush this is not a change election. It is a Compitance election. McCain & Palin are not doing well.

Darío said...

Obama by 3 in North Carolina?

Sara A. said...

"Electoral politics"? We used to call that "listening to your constituents."

The bailout failed the House because it was a bad bill. It won't fix the problem, it will only delay it...maybe...and WILL use up a whole bunch of money which will reduce the government's ability to come up with other solutions and create problems in and of itself.

It passed the Senate because the Senators are ignoring their constituents, and because many of them appear to think that even a bad something is better than nothing. I am not convinced by this.

The House Democrats came up with an alternate plan which doesn't cost money but DOES address the problem.

Where is this notion that all the people who voted against the bailout in the House are from contested district coming from? The Democrats as a whole aren't. Paul Broun and the rest of the Georgia Republicans, who unanimously voted against it, aren't. Of the Georgia Dems, only one voted for it and he IS in a contested district....John Lewis voted "no" and he's not.

The bailout as written is a very, very, VERY bad idea. It's not that I don't understand the credit issue, either; I am a graduate student and live off student loans. But I would rather not see this bill passed even if it causes me personal hardship, because it's *that* bad of an idea.

Thomas said...

I would say that there are two audiences for Palin tonight

Those who saw some of the Couric interviews and those who didnt

I think to turn those who saw it she will have to reach the same threshold as Obama did - presidential.

For those who didnt being cute will be enough. they might have heard about the inerviews, but you need to see them to get the full power of them. For them zingers will play well.

Unfortunately for her I doubt there are many people who would tune into a VP debate who didnt see at least one of those interviews.

don't panic said...

@blame
i would really love to see the narrative move in that direction, and if obama's number hold on for a few days, it's very likely to occurr.
the media can keep the 'toss-up' narrative if it's skewered but still close, but not if the numbers are landslide-like.
in other words they can bias a bit, but not too much.

i believe the tipping point is at around +5, sustained (as is now)
more than that and they'll just move to some other narrative, which would favor the ones ahead even more.

don't panic said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Poker Samurai said...

---What has happened to these pollsters? I said yesterday that the Quinnipiac polls were extreme outliers. I think you can say the same about some of the CNN state polls too. It just makes everything hard to guage. I would feel better seeing Obama up +3 in Virginia and Ohio than seeing these outliers of him up 8 or 9. At least it would be more believable.---

I'm not sure why you find a big sudden move in the face of a massive financial crises and a VP pick who appears to be disastrously incompetent is so unlikely.

Poker Samurai said...

---the media can keep the 'toss-up' narrative if it's skewered but still close, but not if the numbers are landslide-like.---

Don't be silly. The Bradley effect can account for any lead. There will never be an Obama blow out narrative.

Let me see if there's a story flogging this today.

Here we go:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-morrison2-2008oct02,0,5653453.column

OTF said...

More good news:

NC: Rasmussen
Obama 50
McCain 47

Charles M. Kozierok said...

It's sad that we have a major party VP pick in a difficult time whose only two skills seem to be 'acting cute' and bullshitting with word salad.

Even sadder that 40% of the nation think this is okay and want to put her within striking distance of the Oval Office.

Antmatic said...

Rasmussen
O-51
M-44 (-1)

The race is stable for now. VP debate can either worsen the trend for McCain or stabilize.

Favorability
O-58
M-52

Obama's last hurdle is the inevitable onslaught of Wright/Ayers references.

Darío said...

Antimatic, how do you see the Rasmussen results?

Darío said...

Palin is the VP candidate, not the presidential candidate.
The race is between McCain and Obama, not Palin and Biden.

Thomas said...

Dario - the thing is that she more than your usual VP candidate reflects on McCain's judgement.

And more so than other VPs she is almost the face of that campaign.

While Biden needs to stick with praising Obama and bashing McCain tonight, Palin is big news. If she actually shows comeptence (and not just beating low expectations, but actually sounding like she understands the world) then its a big win for McCain - a couple point swing in his direction.

If she is not competent, but gets out some zingers the race probably stays put. If she has a major gaffe then Obama surges over 50% tomorrow.

Poker Samurai said...

---Palin is the VP candidate, not the presidential candidate.
The race is between McCain and Obama, not Palin and Biden.---

What does this even mean? You mean the race for President is about the candidates for President? Gee, thanks for that illuminating insight.

Pretending the Palin pick doesn't have great significance to McCain's candidacy is ludicrous.

Charles M. Kozierok said...

Palin is important for two main reasons, as people here have said repeatedly. First, McCain is old and has health issues. Second, her selection reflects on his judgment.

The problem is that too many Americans still refuse to understand the real danger she represents.

Darío said...

Mission of God?

Real Joe said...

Wright/Ayers=McCain Landslide !!!

Nick said...

Sedi,

My claim is based on instinct, a fair amount of cynicism about the American electorate(Bush was elected twice remember.) And with facts. 2 weeks ago, Mccain was up in all of these states substantially. Lets say Mccain finally finds his Maverick voice or knock Obama out in one of the last 2 debates, you will see the same type of momentum shift as you do now. Just because Bush's approval numbers are low doesnt mean those same people are voting for Obama. I have nothing but cynicism for Florida and Ohio. 2 weeks ago Mccain was pulling away in both. I would have to suspend belief to think Obama is up more than 3 point in either right now. Indiana and North Carolina is too red. I honestly dont believe they will be close. Virginia and Nevada are doable for Obama but will be uphill.

You cant have a sense of security in the race now because this general election has had some of the wildest swings in memory. I think both canidates have reached their highwater marks and Obama has a higher ceiling than Mccain. But Obama does not close well. And Mccain's campaign has controlled the news cycle nearly the entire summer. A 3 or 4 point lead right now is not insurmountable in the least. And yes there is the Bradley effect. I think the ground game and new voters will offset any effect that will have, but we all do not know how much race will affect the final numbers.

Im not fact-free trolling, cos the facts are that in the last couple months of the Democratic nomination the obama camp went into prevent defense. Just 2 weeks ago Democrats were calling for him to hit back. Yes the polls look good now but lets not forget the facts. Obama needs to CLOSE. Forget the photo finish. Put the foot on the throat. Why leave it up to November 4th when hes in position to put the game out of reach now. I dont see any indication that Obama is going for the kill. Thats my only complaint. I mostly agree with you though.

IMHO said...

Things look very bad for McCain right now, and it may be the case that the MSM will refuse to countenance any Republican ads that try to illimunate BHO's Chicago political upbringing. That could dampen BHO's momentum right now.

Another October tactic could be a coerced discussion of sexism with Biden gaffe after Biden gaffe and BHO gaffe after BHO gaffe shown agains the treatment of Palin.

Blame said...

Rasmussen tracker

Obama 51
McCain 44

7% from a tracker that has always underestimated Obama's lead AND is semi-locked by fixed shares of DEM/GOP voters.

Blame said...

I don't know about you lot, but it looks to me that maybe the Public isn't quite that dumb.

This keeps up & the Nevada offices will close down so they can all rush back to win Texas.

Real Joe said...

@blame

LOL

Charles M. Kozierok said...

"Another October tactic could be a coerced discussion of sexism with Biden gaffe after Biden gaffe and BHO gaffe after BHO gaffe shown agains the treatment of Palin."

McCain has defanged the "sexism" attack with his own stupidity, just as he previously defanged the "experience" angle and every other valid criticism he had of Obama.

The Palin pick is increasingly being recognized as the inherently sexist pick that it is. And McCain's handling of Palin is far more sexist than anything Obama or Biden have ever done.

Bex of Ambridge said...

New complete convert to this site, and first time poster (and Brit - so I don't even get to vote!)

There's been some chat on this board about how discussion of a landslide could overturn this idea of not voting for a Black president, i.e. well everyone else is so maybe I will.

How much do people think these astonishing polls could be self-fullfilling prophecies, and thereby overturning the Bradley effect? What I mean is, people who are currently telling pollers they would vote for BHO (but wouldn't) produce such an effect that it actually tips people (maybe even them!) into voting for him?

Another reason the polls fill me with joy, but I'm new to this. What do others think?

Ross said...

The "sweeteners" in this bill are all pork barrel spending and earmarks. The fact that Obama and McCain passed it without a second thought shows the hypocrisy of our leading politicians.

A few of the earmarks stuffed in the bill:

- Film and Television Productions (Sec. 502)
- Wooden Arrows designed for use by children (Sec. 503)
- 6 page package of earmarks for litigants in the 1989 Exxon Valdez incident, Alaska (Sec. 504)

Tax earmark “extenders” in the bailout bill.
- Virgin Island and Puerto Rican Rum (Section 308)
- American Samoa (Sec. 309)
- Mine Rescue Teams (Sec. 310)
- Mine Safety Equipment (Sec. 311)
- Domestic Production Activities in Puerto Rico (Sec. 312)
- Indian Tribes (Sec. 314, 315)
- Railroads (Sec. 316)
- Auto Racing Tracks (317)
- District of Columbia (Sec. 322)
- Wool Research (Sec. 325)

Blame said...

bex

If anything it should increase the suposed bradley effect on the grounds that admitting you are a McCain supporter is no longer respectable. A bit like admitting your too stupid to be able to read.

Blame said...

ross

But we afford it right? Oh! Well then, just charge it.

Bex of Ambridge said...

Blame -

Really? You think people are too embarrassed to tell someone on the phone that they support McCain, because he's becoming a bit of a joke, but not too embarrassed to vote for him?!

Surely not!

(Disclaimer: eternal optimist, been astonished at both recent elections. Ha ha will I never learn.)

PorridgeGun said...

McCain is either a racist bigot, or he REALLY hates Obama for handing his ass to him..

Let the record reflect that Barack Obama made the approach to John McCain tonight.

As the two shared the Senate floor tonight for the first time since they won their party nominations, Obama stood chatting with Democrats on his side of the aisle, and McCain stood on the Republican side of the aisle.

So Obama crossed over into enemy territory.

He walked over to where McCain was chatting with Republican Sen. Mel Martinez of Florida and Independent Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut. And he stretched out his arm and offered his hand to McCain.

McCain shook it, but with a "go away" look that no one could miss. He tried his best not to even look at Obama.

Finally, with a tight smile, McCain managed a greeting: "Good to see you."

Obama got the message. He shook hands with Martinez and Lieberman — both of whom greeted him more warmly — and quickly beat a retreat back to the Democratic side.

Not very presidential. Or mature.






http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/cq-obama-makes-mccain-very.html

Blame said...

poridgegun

lol. I am not sure how I would handle having my ass served on a plate.

McCain has spent half his life pushing for the top spot. He finaly got to the front of the GOP queue & then this happens.

I am just surprised he didn't have a tantrum.

Blame said...

Good news for McCain - He is still ahead in Georgia 50 to 44. Maybe he can cling on.

Er, when he said we are all Georgians, did he mean that the only Republicans left are Georgians?

Alan Robinson said...

Nate,

I think a different analysis might explain the Senate. If you look at votes by regions you see a distinct pattern. In southern states, (NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, and LA, 11 Senators voted no and 3 yes. You see a similar pattern in the upper tier that includes the region from the Dakotas west to the Pacific. (ND, SD, WY, MT, ID, OR, & WA)(5 yes and 7 No) So 18 of the 25 no votes came from these two regions The other two Dem. no's were two of the most liberal senators and the remaining Republican no's were conservatives as well

egapre said...

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平平 said...

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