Rany Jazayerli, my colleague at Baseball Prospectus who wrote for us in August about the resignation of Barack Obama's national coordinator for Muslim American affairs, has a guest feature today contemplating Osama bin Laden's potential to influence the 2008 elections. I hope you'll take the time to jump below the fold and read his piece. If it’s October, that means it’s the month of surprises, and I’m not talking about the Tampa Bay Rays making the playoffs. (Besides, that wouldn’t be much of a surprise if you trusted Nate’s baseball projections in the spring.) No, this is the month where dramatic late-breaking news can tip an election. In fact, given the sizable lead that Barack Obama has now opened up – roughly six points in the national polls, with a favorable electoral map – and the crystallizing of opinions among the electorate, it may be that only dramatic late-breaking news can tip this election. Historically, a six-point lead with four weeks to go is almost impregnable barring unforeseen circumstances. Given that, it’s possible that John McCain is just waiting for the perfect time to drop a bomb on the election process. (Maybe Tucker Bounds is hiding the “kill whitey” tape in a secure vault somewhere.) But realistically, if McCain had any bullets left in his gun, he would have shot them by now. He’s already emptied his nominate-a-woman-for-VP clip and his suspend-the-campaign-for-the- If there is to be a true October Surprise – a pre-meditated attempt to use unexpected news to alter the course of the election in the 11th hour – it’s unlikely to come from the McCain campaign. Meanwhile, the Obama campaign has its prevent defense on the field right now. The only surprise they’d welcome at this point would be a sudden change in the laws that moved up the election to tomorrow. That leaves just one obvious person unaccounted for who has both the motivation to alter the course of the election and the means to do so at the last moment: Osama bin Laden. We know bin Laden would like to influence the election, because he’s done it before. On October 29, 2004 – four days before America went to the polls – Al-Jazeera broadcast excerpts of a video of bin Laden in which he attacked and openly mocked the Bush administration, and vowed to strike again. Bin Laden did not overtly support John Kerry, at one point saying, “Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al-Qaida. Your security is in your own hands and each state which does not harm our security will remain safe.” But most of his comments were directed at the sitting president, such as, “It never occurred to us that the Commander-in-Chief of the country would leave 50,000 citizens in the two towers to face those horrors alone because he thought listening to a child discussing her goats was more important.” The predominant reaction, then, was to assume that bin Laden was rooting for a Kerry victory. Not surprisingly, following the release of his video, the needle moved a point or two – towards Bush. Voters certainly had every reason to give bin Laden the ink-stained finger, and bin Laden’s re-appearance on their TV screens was a not-so-subtle reminder of Bush’s most reassuring trait as president: his uncompromising stance towards terrorism (notwithstanding his ineptitude at implementing a strategy to combat it). Bush won the popular vote by 2.5%, and won Ohio – whose electoral votes would have given Kerry the presidency – by only 2.1%. Correlation is not causation, but it is at least arguable that the release of the bin Laden video altered the outcome of the election. Presented with a video in which the embodiment of evil and our sworn enemy openly mocked our leader, Americans did what we did after 9/11: we closed ranks around that leader, and voted him to a second term. Which is exactly what bin Laden wanted. The immediate reaction of most Americans was predictable, and bin Laden used that predictability to his advantage. There is no doubt that he timed the release of the video in order to influence the election, and any appearance by bin Laden, by placing the issue of terrorism and national security in the front of voters’ minds, was likely to give a boost to the incumbent. If bin Laden truly wanted Kerry to win the election, his best move would have been no move at all. (There are two constituencies who can best help their preferred candidate by publicly supporting his opponent: terrorists and Hollywood celebrities.) While bin Laden is many things, he is not hopelessly unintelligent. He knew that his video would help Bush’s bid for re-election, even if – or precisely because – the immediate reaction from voters (and far too many pundits) was that his intentions were the exact opposite. Somehow, we as a nation took the statements of the world’s most heinous and duplicitous man at face value. In Ron Suskind’s book “The One Percent Doctrine”, published in 2006, he noted that the CIA concluded that “bin Laden’s message was clearly designed to assist the President’s reelection.” The fact that so many people initially thought otherwise reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of what it was that bin Laden was trying to accomplish on 9/11. I make no claims that I can comprehend the mind of a terrorist, but as a Muslim I think I have a handle on bin Laden’s twisted view of Islamic eschatology. Bin Laden wasn’t simply trying to hurt America on 9/11: he was trying to start World War III. He neither expected nor hoped that after ramming planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and maybe the Capitol, that Al-Qaeda could slink off into some caves along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border until Americans forgot all about 9/11, and then they could strike again. When bin Laden declared war on the United States, it was in the hope that the United States would declare war in return – not just on him, but on the entire Muslim world. He wanted war, the bigger and more protracted the better. He wanted the Clash of Civilizations. He wanted, in a very literal sense, The End of Days. He didn’t have the firepower or resources to trigger the apocalypse himself, so he baited someone who did – the United States of America. I can’t stress this point enough: bin Laden and his followers don’t fear war because they don’t fear death – they welcome it. They believe, without reservation, that death brings martyrdom and eternal salvation. Until the very moment that the planes hit the towers, the hijackers on 9/11 were certain they had a one-way ticket to paradise. (The moment after the planes hit the towers is a different story.) That he might get killed after 9/11 was a far lesser concern to bin Laden than the possibility that his murderous attack might not provoke a suitable response. And in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, when world opinion – including Muslim world opinion – was overwhelmingly in America’s corner, and when our military forces initially targeted only Al-Qaeda and their Taliban enablers in Afghanistan, he might have thought he miscalculated. And then came the drumbeat to war with Iraq, opening up a new front against a country that had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. I can only imagine bin Laden rubbing his hands together with glee upon the news that the United States had declared war on Iraq, telling his men, “You see? Our plan is working.” So when it came to the 2004 election, bin Laden was neither pro-Bush nor pro-Kerry. He was pro-war. And whichever candidate was most likely to sustain, or even escalate, that war was his man. That candidate was clearly George W. Bush, which meant it was time to turn on the cameras and burn a DVD. This time around, we have one candidate who advocates a timetable to withdraw our troops from Iraq and divert those resources to Afghanistan in order to root out the people who actually attacked us seven years ago – bin Laden and his band of terrorists. And then we have a candidate who talks about maintaining U.S. forces in Iraq for 100 years if necessary, and sings songs in public about pre-emptively bombing Iran, which would set yet another gear turning in bin Laden’s scheme to bring about global war. Once again it appears that bin Laden would prefer the Republican candidate, and once again it appears that since any appearance by bin Laden is likely to tip voters towards favoring the decorated Vietnam War veteran, bin Laden’s best move is to show up with another October Surprise. The McCain campaign has already attempted to label Obama as the preferred choice of Muslim terrorists everywhere. Back in April, McCain seized on favorable comments about Obama by a member of Hamas, stating, “If Senator Obama is favored by Hamas I think people can make judgments accordingly.” There’s no doubt the McCain campaign will pounce if bin Laden pops up with similar remarks. (It would hardly be a surprise if Hamas truly favors Obama, given that the Muslim world – and the rest of the world, for that matter – overwhelmingly favors him.) With McCain lagging in the polls, bin Laden might even try a Hail Mary – with Sarah Palin on the ballot, I’d imagine that he’ll throw in some misogynistic comments about how a woman’s place is inside the home and that a nation led by a woman is sure to be cursed by God. (Which would be particularly rich if he goes that route, given that he’s probably holed up somewhere in Pakistan, where they’ve already had a female chief executive.) And then there’s the worst-case scenario: while Obama’s lead is substantial enough that he probably could weather a bin Laden appearance, the real game-changer would be if – God forbid – bin Laden is able to launch another terrorist attack on U.S. soil.
by Rany Jazayerli
10.10.2008
Guest Column: Will Bin Laden Strike Again?
by Nate Silver @ 1:21 PM...see also 2004, national security, october surprise
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230 comments
Second.
Nate:
That argument assumes similar attitudes in the public.
In 2004, support for the war was strong - and Bush was popular.
And today? The complete reverse.
So that argument is really apples/oranges, is it not? The two target audiences are completely different.
I don't think OBL can make a difference this time. I also think the reason why McCain is goin very negative is because he needs to show results very quickly otherwise his campaign will be dropped by the RNC money machine in favor of congressional/senatorial races.
That's just silly worrying.
Honestly, no one trusts important decisions to McCain--even if this does happen we're going to pick the selfish choice and go with Obama so we're not broke.
America: I'd rather be dead than poor.
If there is to be a true October Surprise – a pre-meditated attempt to use unexpected news to alter the course of the election in the 11th hour – it’s unlikely to come from the McCain campaign. Meanwhile, the Obama campaign has its prevent defense on the field right now.
There's some big assumption on cause and effect here. Why shouldn't an OBL attack not come from the McShame Campaign> 9/11 was either allowed to happen or planned by GOP so why wouldn't they do such a thing agian?
I would expect to see him the weekend before the election if he is still alive but I do not think it will make a big difference.
He is no longer a scary figure, he hasn`t really hit the us in 7 years and people are more worried about the economy than a terrorist in a cave,
I think the demicrats have to many advantages for him to make any impact, in fact it will just be a reminder that the republicans have failed to get him.
My guess is if he isn`t dead he is very ill.
I really hope he's wrong. Given how stupid a large populace of our country is, we'd play right into his hands and McCain would be our president for the next year, Palin for the next three.
I try not to worry about things too much, so here's to hoping he doesn't show up this year.
A very well written post on one of the two things I'm sure most of us are afraid of, even in the backs of our minds.
As an American born Muslim, I can tell you that this is a big fear. The author is correct terrorists WANT war, otherwise they become irrelevant. Don't let those SOBs change the current course.
Hey Nate! Bug report: the front page is broken in Windows Internet Explorer 7. Most of the text is missing. This is a recurring problem throughout the site, for example with search results.
Early voting should temper the effect of any 11th hour surprise
gayithican,
You're right in that support of the war has decreased a tremendous amount, but if the guy who got all this mess started were to pop up, I think it's possible we'd go back to where we were.
It may play out different given our economic situation and issues domestically, but because republicans like war and fear so much, McCain would probably use this to an advantage and millions of americans would be crapping in their pants about houses, bombs, money, bombs.
Really....if this happens, I expect 60% of the population to suffer from spontaneous combustion by December.
@ Tim:
"I'd rather be dead than poor."
If that's a 'Frisky Dingo' reference, well done sir!
Well done indeed.
McCain campaign have to do anything for win.
I had a slightly different thought: We've been hearing for weeks about how "The Republican brand is in tatters" due to failed economic policy, yes, but mostly failed foreign policy. Does anyone remember the resurgence in support for the War in Iraq after we found Saddam Hussein? What if the US or Pakistani Military knows where OBL is hiding, and they're waiting to trot him out a few days before the election? It's not inconceivable that we could have found him by now, we've had 7 years! And it would certainly restore the electorate's faith in interventionist neo-con foreign policy and the war machine headed by Bush and his natural successor, John McCain...
Any thoughts?
A 'terrorist' attack is the only way McCain can win.
I expect one, especially if you understand how the Bush Administration has used 'terrorism' to gain unbridled power.
It's the only way they can win.
If Bin Laden pops up, that plays to the Democrats advantage, or at worst a draw. Obama's position is that he wants to focus on killing Bin Laden and not be distracted by Iraq. McCain says he 'knows how to do it,' but he also says that he can't tell anybody how he'd do it.
Maybe an OBL appearance would only make Obama's promise to refocus on Afghanistan and Pakistan look even better? McCain would look damn silly ranting about Iran and NK in that case, wouldn't he?
Crossposted with galaxy quest - sorry!
It's also possible that Americans would react this time to a terrorist attack as the Spanish did to the 2004 Madrid train bombing. Prior to that event, the rightwing People's Party was favored to retain power in the upcoming elections. Instead, voters were furious that they had not been protected by their government, and elected the Socialist opposition.
Bin Laden is dead. 0% chance.
Phony strike in his name? Maybe 5%.
I'm more worried about Ahmadinejad making a crazy statement- not to influence the election, but because he loves attention. But I'm not too worried because Obama has hit the right indignant tones when he's needed to.
Conversely, I trust President Obama more than President McCain to measure the right tone so as to not inadvertently help Ahmadinejad in his re-election bid next year. And it would be great to see that tool join Bush on the list of formers.
I really wish you guys would stick to baseball. This article makes zero sense. Osama bin Laden actually prefers the foreign-policy hawk who is dedicated to fighting his evil? Over the weakling? DREAM ON! This is one of the silliest things I have ever read. To me it is a JoeChat. It is a Bill Plaschke article on the grit of Juan Pierre. I mean, are you fucking kidding me? How is it that you lefties get to rewrite history?
Remember how the Ayotollah released the hostages the very moment Reagan became president? Yea. The Iranians, the Russians, the terrorists-- all of those who compete with us for power and influence are cheering for an Obama administration, which will almost certainly be weak and vacillating. How you get from the withdrawal and weakness candidate being feared and respected by our enemies is bizarre and absurd.
Thank you for the article.
Of all of the remaining possibilities, I do fear that this one is the most likely.
That's a very interesting commentary. I've thought for a long time that many of the events of the middle east invasion were playing into the hands of Bin Laden and his ilk. I have viewed Bush and Cheney as war mongering thugs whose only interest is in draining the US treasury so they and their "friends" could syphon off $B's. It seems to me that B&C have done more damage to our country than Bin Laden could have imagined. Small wonder that he was a Bush supporter.
I agree wholeheartedly that the Bush Administration's decision to attack Iraq and ignore Afghanistan plucked defeat from the jaws of victory. What was a great bin Laden miscalculation was turned into a great triumph for him.
And for the same reason, I agree he had every reason to work for Bush's re-election in 2004.
I would like to think that the American public would see through the charade if bin Laden attempts to throw the election to McCain, but then again, nobody ever went broke underestimating the American public.
Wow... just wow. Do you lefties really think that all we have to do to prevent war is not wage it? HELLO! They attacked US! They DECLARED WAR ON US! You can't give the terrorists less power and influence by withdrawing, somehow thereby giving them less influence! Is this really how you guys think? That is silly and dangerous.
Meh, I'm not convinced at all that bin Laden's plan in 2004 was to help Bush get elected. Sounds like a just-so story to me.
the prospect of him destroying the election for Obama is scarier than anything I can imagine.
Nice to see some commentary by Dr. Jazayerli at this juncture. I still remember his fine column at baseballprospectus.com directly after the 9/11 attacks.
Sigh. I dearly hope he is wrong, but my fellow Americans were stupid enough to buy Bush's Saddam-9/11 disinformation campaign against us to the tune of 70% a full two years after the event, despite zero evidence of Iraq's involvement. So anything is possible.
I really wish people would start to grasp how perfectly the Bush Administration played into OBL's plans. McCain gleefully repeats bin Laden's line that "Iraq is the central front in this clash of civilizations" seemingly without the slightest clue he is buying into his enemy's plan. They do want war, and they are bankrupting us because we are fighting it with sledgehammers instead of scalpels, to use the Democratic nominee's phrase applied to budget issues.
To think that I will vote for McCain because I am a woman and a woman is on the ticket is insulting-yet so many proved to be so ignorant. To think I will vote for a former POW, someone who physically fought in a war over 40 years ago because the US is attacked is insulting-yet many still show this ignorance. I have heard several scenarios for the October surprise Biden suprisingly drops out and Obama snatches up Hilary, an in your face McCain move, which honestly would be fun to see.
They can hate all they want, I welcome it, it means we are right and my vote will NOT be swayed. At time the best way to respond to ignorance is to ignore it, like millions will do when they vote on November 4. Obama-Biden '08
It is interesting that nobody is running 911 adds this time round. The worry is not what it was 4 years ago. Even then it is debatable to say so much based on polls being off by a point or two. Most likely they were just inaccurate.
---I really wish you guys would stick to baseball. This article makes zero sense. Osama bin Laden actually prefers the foreign-policy hawk who is dedicated to fighting his evil?---
Yes. Not close at all. Al Queda's primary fund raising and recruiting basis is the actions of the US. When Bin Laden tells the Arab street that the US will bomb Muslims and invade their countries without cause, and he's right, and endless supply of cash and supporters flow to Al Queda.
---Over the weakling?---
McCain? Hard to say. I agree that he's a coward with no honor, though.
---DREAM ON! This is one of the silliest things I have ever read. To me it is a JoeChat. It is a Bill Plaschke article on the grit of Juan Pierre. I mean, are you fucking kidding me? How is it that you lefties get to rewrite history?
Remember how the Ayotollah released the hostages the very moment Reagan became president?---
I do! Is McCain planning to fund Al Queda? I wasn't aware that doddering old coward had plans to send giant bags of money to Bin Laden's villa in Pakistan in exchange for the safety of the US. Can you link the place on his website where he explain this?
Oh wait, I know! Is this the secret he spoke of in the debate? "I know how to beat Bin Laden, my friends, but it does involve paying him in gold, virgins, and hummus"
---Yea. The Iranians, the Russians, the terrorists-- all of those who compete with us for power and influence are cheering for an Obama administration, which will almost certainly be weak and vacillating. How you get from the withdrawal and weakness candidate being feared and respected by our enemies is bizarre and absurd.---
McCain's by far the weaker candidate internationally. BY FAR. Any intelligence analyst will tell you the same. Putin would just roll over McCain like he rolled over Bush and laugh about it.
Beautifully written article but I hope you are wrong this election. In 2004 when bin Laden released that tape I told my husband (who is a Muslim convert) that bin Laden wanted Bush for president. It was obvious. I hope it doesn't happen again.
I hope there is enough Americans who will actually use their brain and not be manipulated by the likes of UBL.
That sounds plausible to me. A tape release would cost Al Quaeda almost nothing. Even if it didn't significantly help McCain over Obama, it would still act to put Al Quaeda back on the new president's agenda.
A complication: Perhaps if bin Laden/al-Zawahiri/etc. decide that Obama will win regardless of a tape release, they would instead wait until just before inauguration, in order to affect the new president's priorities right when they're being announced.
@John Peterson
why do you persist in making straw men to destroy?
Read some history, especially about Northern Ireland & the IRA. As a terrorist organisation the worst thing is to be ignored. The IRA repeatedly attempted to set off reprisals to make themselves gain support. Hamas did something similar from Lebanon less than 2 years ago.
That doesn't mean you don't fight back but it means you fight back carefully, attempting at all times to retain the moral higher ground - no torture, no false imprisonment, no killing of innocents. If required you put your soldiers lives on the line to do so - that is what they are paid and trained for, and indeed is where the concept of hearts & minds campaigns come from.
The US under Bush has broken these rules repeatedly and a flare up of fundamentalism and thousands of dead american & allied troops was the result in addition to the death of tens of thousands of iraqis and afghans.
Apparently, the FOX Propanada Network have conducted a national poll, which contradicts every other national poll, by showing McCain taking the lead 45%-42%. It was posted on the FReeptard website.
Nate, when you stop pissing yourself laughing, feel free to ridicule these people.
Dems need to make their own preemptive strike. Talk up the possibility of an 11th hour Bin Laden bombshell and explain that it's because a McCain presidency would better suit his goals.
Then if it actually happens the effect is dampened
I'm amazed so many people still think Bin Laden is still alive. There hasn't been a convincing siting of him since December 2001. I'm pretty sure he's dead - especially since he was gaunt and on dialysis at the time, and the fact that his death was reported in local press.
Still, we all need a bogeyman...
---Wow... just wow. Do you lefties really think that all we have to do to prevent war is not wage it?---
Don't be silly. The Democratic Party wins every war it runs. WW2 for instance. The GOP on the other hand, flee like giant pussies. Vietnam, for instance.
---HELLO! They attacked US! They DECLARED WAR ON US! You can't give the terrorists less power and influence by withdrawing, somehow thereby giving them less influence! Is this really how you guys think? That is silly and dangerous.---
You're a moron. No respect, but you really just aren't very bright. I hope the venting helps, though, I'd hate for you to have to take more meds what with health care costing what it does.
I can't believe people still think he's alive. He was toast at Tora Bora. There hasn't been (including the 2004 tape which was later said to be a mix of old tapes) a single, verifiable video of Bin Laden. For a man that thrived on terrorizing people, a man that knew how easily he could terrorize people with his video threats, he has been awfully quiet since the attack on Tora Bora.
The only way anyone will convince me that Bin Laden is alive is with a video in which he directly comments on Obama and McCain while holding up a current copy of the New York Times or USA Today.
Until that happens, the man is dead.
And this is something that Bush didn't want the American people to know because it would have meant the ultimate symbol of fear that propped him up would be gone.
If you want an October surprise, it'll be Bush finally admitting that Bin Laden is dead.
(formerly posting as jp)
... I am at a loss for words... I... there is no will to defend our country... there is complete cognitive dissonance... what I see written here represents complete idiocy... this is Neville Chamberlain "peace in our time" nonsense. I just... can't see how you all became this ignorant.
you're somehow saying that jimmy carter part deux inspires fear in the hearts of our enemies. yea, they fear vacillation, lack of purpose, and spineless withdrawal. obama's superior negotiation skillz will restore America to great respect! oratory will win over the world and the terrorists will have no respect anywhere because it will be so obvious to everyone that the harmony flowing out of barack's ass is in everyone's best interest!
dream on, you loons!
Frank said...
It's also possible that Americans would react this time to a terrorist attack as the Spanish did to the 2004 Madrid train bombing. Prior to that event, the rightwing People's Party was favored to retain power in the upcoming elections. Instead, voters were furious that they had not been protected by their government, and elected the Socialist opposition.
Not so. Voters were furious because PP blamed the Spanish terrorist group ETA while everybody (including the ruling PP) knew it was Al Queda. It way lying by the incumbents that defeated the incumbents. Hopefully US will be able to do the same in 08 and not repeat its ignorance of 04.
I'm also worried about a Bush move post Nov 4th, Ala Bush 41's invasion of Somalia. The Somali operation was clearly designed to put the dovish and inexperienced Clinton into a quagmire in his first decisions in office. The ploy worked and Somalia was a disaster for Clinton, served on a silver platter by Bush 41. Where might Bush 43 invade knowing Obama will inherit the presidency?
DJIA quickly closing in on 7,999
---I'm amazed so many people still think Bin Laden is still alive. There hasn't been a convincing siting of him since December 2001.--
He's in a villa in Pakistan complete with a physician, a nurse, and a dialysis machine. This has been confirmed numerous times by people claiming to have been on the grounds for various reasons.
The idea that he's somehow been negatively impacted by US actions since 9-11 is a complete fiction. There has never been any evidence of him being even slightly inconvenienced.
Great article. Here is a question for the debate (yes, too late): The goal of Osama bin Laden obviously is not to take over the US by force. Rather he hopes to drag the US into expensive foreign wars against Muslim countries, even those such as Iraq that had nothing to do with 9-11. How can we claim to be fighting terrorism when we are doing exactly what bin Laden wants us to do? How can we respond effectively to terrorism in a way that does not help achieve the terrorists' goals?
Mr. McCain?
The undecideds may be smart enough to see an October Surprise for what it is. On the other hand, you can't underestimate the stupidity of a country of which more than half of the population once favored Bush.
Zenu:
You may be right, though I am confident that the vast majority of those who would react viscerally to any OBL attempt to affect the election are already voting for McCain/Palin.
Glass smashed at Dems' Denver HQ
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10660404
This is exactly what I've thought for quite some time now. The only way Obama will lose now is if some new shocking relevation considering his persona is revealed or if there's a terrorist attack. "An endorsement" from Bin Laden may not be enough with current numbers but if this gets any closer even that could be devastating for Obama.
___________________________________
http://www.internationalpoliticstoday.com
Early voting news from GA, according to someone on DailyKos, so take with a grain of salt:
"Total votes: 420,145
This is 12.7% of the total cast in 2004 and ~8% of registered voters.
Over 100k registration forms STILL NOT PROCESSED!
37.2% of the 420k cast by African Americans.
These totals include a chunk of absentee ballots."
There are two constituencies who can best help their preferred candidate by publicly supporting his opponent: terrorists and Hollywood celebrities.
George W. Bush would b able to do that pretty well too. Perhaps that will be the October surprise.
It's naive (and dangerous) to think that Bin Laden is the only factor capable of a catastrophic last-minute game-changer.
Personally, I doubt bin Laden is alive. Not that we "took him out", but he had severe chronic illnesses and living in the most remote place on earth, getting qualified medical help without being dimed out is impossible. The CIA/NSA monitors every doctor nurse that could help a middle aged man with renal failure.
Common sense says either bush is keeping him alive for a nefarious reason, or he's met his maker.
There are in fact others with both the means and the interest to produce something similar this month. I gather this poster would not be the right person to pursue this, but perhaps Nate can recruit someone else. I'm less worried this month about OBL than his incitees, who are still in power.
Bin Laden is just Condi in a fake beard and head covering.
Bush will have her put on the costume again this halloween.
indiegrind said...
Bin Laden is just Condi in a fake beard and head covering.
Bush will have her put on the costume again this halloween.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
For people with juvenile senses of humor.
Not safe for work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5onEdxx9zs
One thing I have to say, it really bothers me that Obama always says "we will capture or kill bin Laden". What's with the talk of killing? John Kerry did the same thing in an effort to sound tough and forceful. It's pretty detrimental to an image of being level-headed, not to mention it's just plain undiplomatic and obviously tries to pander to the Palin-style haters.
Read some history, eh? I have forgotten more history than you have ever known. You lefties don't know shit about history; if you did, you wouldn't be lefties. Instead, you rewrite it into a simplistic morality tale where lefties were always right about everything and it was the scared, pathetic enemies of change on the right who caused all of the problems in history.
You are Jacobins. You are Robespierres. But even these asses understood the concept of leverage in foreign policy. You don't. You see the world in terms of mean people and nice people, and all the nice people are lefties and all the mean people are righties. To my point that we didn't start this fight with radical Islam, and that there is no victory in closing our eyes in calling it peripheral and the product of our own actions, as you seem inclined to do, you didn't respond. Instead you said, "You're a moron. No respect, but you really just aren't very bright." Thanks for your well-thought out response.
There are two constituencies who can best help their preferred candidate by publicly supporting his opponent: terrorists and Hollywood celebrities.
Not convinced about the Hollywood celebrities being a bad thing. Put it this way, when Tom Hanks endorsed Obama that got his announcement of his support on the news. You're basically talking a free ad as Hanks listed why he's supporting Obama in his video and helped Obama to a positive news day.
Multiply that by a LOT of celebrities supporting Obama - and leading to a lot more money for him as well, both directly and in fund raisers - and I simply don't see how it's a bad thing.
McCain Camp Links Obama to ACORN Scandal
The campaign holds media call with manager Rick Davis and Missouri Gov. Blunt on the Land of Lincolner’s “ties to the organization.”
Davis accuses Obama of not being straight with the American people, says he has been very inconsistent in his remarks about his relationship with them.
Cites alleged instances of the Obama camp working with ACORN, Obama defending the group when he was a lawyer in Chicago.
Blunt attacks Obama-backer Sen. McCaskill, suggests she has considered incident as a “trivial affair.”
The non-partisan group that works to recruit low-income voters has come under fire recently for possible cases of voter registration fraud.
http://thepage.time.com/2008/10/10/mccain-camp-to-link-obama-to-acorn-scandal/
Great article Rany. Always very interesting to here moderate islamic views on the War on Terror and Bin Laden. (Wonder if Bush or McCain has ever tried listening to moberate islamic opinion?)
I think is there some truth in the idea that Bin Laden might be deceased, I think in some perverted way I can imagine the idea of haunting Americans from beyonf the grave appealing to Bin Laden, and its interesting that touch wood Al Qaida haven't been able to launch a major attack anywhere in the world recently.
I have always said the war on terror in actuality, despite what Bish and his cronies believe, is essentially a diplomatic war and will be won or lost by appealing to moderate islamic opinion and supporting moderate islamic nations. (not supporting in an aggressive sense mind!)
Well, I guess it makes sense why GWB would also want OBL alive and operating freely in Pakistan.
There's a poster in the old west, that used to say: Wanted, Dead or Alive. In summary, we're gonna smoke 'em out of their holes. Freedom and victory are on the march against the enemies of liberty... (but if you see Osama bin Laden, don't shoot!)
"Remember how the Ayotollah released the hostages the very moment Reagan became president?---"
Yes, I remember very well how the Ayotollah stuck a finger in Jimmy Carter's eye after Carter's failed attempt to rescue the hostages. So what's your point?
The Fox poll referred to upthread actually shows Obama up 46-39, although in true Fox fashion, the story that accompanies it doesn't mention this it all and harps on its Ayers/Wright findings.
Here's the link to the .pdf of the full poll:
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/101008_foxpoll.pdf
John Peterson said...
Wow... just wow. Do you lefties really think that all we have to do to prevent war is not wage it? HELLO! They attacked US! They DECLARED WAR ON US! You can't give the terrorists less power and influence by withdrawing, somehow thereby giving them less influence! Is this really how you guys think? That is silly and dangerous.
Ummm... withdrawing from where the terrorist are not located and moving troops to where the terrorist actually are sounds like a great plan to me! I'll put it into a five simple steps that even you should be able to follow.
1. Open an atlas.
2. Go to the Asia or Middle East section.
3. Find Iraq.
4. Find Afghanistan and Pakistan.
5. Notice how far Iraq is from the Afghanistan/Pakistan border.
Nate,
Something in this post, probably some sort of leftover HTML mistakenly transferred through a copy/paste operation... is breaking this site.
Loggin on to http://www.fivethirtyeight.com only displays the first 5 lines of this posting. No previous postings are shown, nothing else aside from the sidebars to the right and left.
@apollodorus/John Peterson
man, you can't even keep your name fixed. Coward.
Anyway, this is all by way of saying that terrorists will not be attacking us until 1/20/09, because it is obvious to them (even if y'all remain ignorant) that attacking before election day would elect the hawk who will actually be resolute in fighting them, and in attacking before the inauguration they serve to gain nothing. By attacking afterward, they stand to gain a series of concessions and victories over a candidate who rose to power by opposing war. This should be obvious to everyone.
And as far as the hostages being released upon Reagan's inauguration, I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that Reagan's people had made a deal with the Iranians well ahead of the election, and their release had nothing to do with a "fear" of Reagan.
McCain Topper: Campaign Shouldn’t Become “CNBC News Show on the Stock Market”
Manager Rick Davis tells reporters on a media call he “can’t imagine a situation” where a campaign would issue daily statements on the volatility of the stock markets.
“It doesn’t mean we don’t care and aren’t trying to do something about it, it’s just I’m not exactly sure what you’d say everyday.”
http://thepage.time.com/2008/10/10/mccain-topper-campaign-shouldnt-become-cnbc-news-show-on-the-stock-market/
Dude, I'm a coward? I'm the only person on here using his real name, and I'm a coward? I fucking announced my name change, which is more than you can say for the ObamaBots who post under 20 different names. Did you use your real name, ever? No? Then shut up about it.
McCain's plan for capturing OBL sounds like it might work. To summarize:
1. We'll get him, my friends, We'll get Osama bin Laden. My friends, I'll go to the gates of hell to get him (but not Pakistan) I know how to get him, my friends. We'll get him.
2. ?
3. Profit
"Wow... just wow. Do you lefties really think that all we have to do to prevent war is not wage it? HELLO! They attacked US! They DECLARED WAR ON US"
Its not ALL you have to do, but it helps. It would also help if the US had another tool left in our diplomatic toolkit besides bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb.
Killing millions of Iraqis because Al-Queda in Afghanistan attacked us looks like a good way to create MORE terrorists who want to kill us. I'm no expert on foreign affairs like Sarah Palin, but this just seems like a bad idea.
And as far as the hostages being released upon Reagan's inauguration, I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that Reagan's people had made a deal with the Iranians well ahead of the election, and their release had nothing to do with a "fear" of Reagan.
They made a deal ahead of time? That's ridiculous. That would be illegal and constitute treason. (Except when Barack Obama does it, of course.)
The Iranians made a deal with Carter and held off on it until he was gone in order to shove it in his face. Because it's a power thing, and Carter didn't get it.
So the Repugs last desperate attempt to smear Obama is to link him to a group that is trying to make sure as many people as possible are registered to vote as possible. I don't get that, just like I didn't get the Bush campaigns attitude in Florida in 2000. Lets not count votes that people have made in good faith, and lets persecute a group that is trying to help people register to vote. Pathetic really.
McCain is a coward. He's too scared to stand up to Obama...much less terrorism. McCain = erratic weakling.
It is probably much more likely that an attack or an OBL tape would remind everybody (except for far-righties) how inept Bush has been. Not an issue.
I'm far more concerned about the possibility of violence, with the terrorist talk being spewed by McCain and the brick throwing, etc.
To my point that we didn't start this fight with radical Islam.
We did, Palistine was whiped of the map long before 9/11. Saudi Arabia is occupied with numbers of US military bases since long before 9/11. We gave Saddam Hussein permission to start the Iran/Iraq war long before 9/11.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/polls/poll.polls.html
This certainly is not as reliable as 538, but going from the CNN poll of polls, the OBL tape didn't do all that much. Kerry was consistently behind, though within the MoE. I therefore doubt the OBL tape had much to do with it. Obama's leads in recent trackers, by contrast, are almost all outside the MoE. An OBL attack might give McCain a few points, but probably would not be a game-changer.
Still, as a Democrat, I'm worried, as I am wont to do around election time.
Off Topic: Anyone else looking at Mark Halperin's The Page besides real joe? Rick Davis looks SCARY.
sorry guys this is off topic but it is too good to pass up--the McCain campaign this morning: "Obama is talking about the economy in order not to talk about our questions"
ha ha ha. Really?
Those who disagree with this article:
Take a look at the state of America today, and the state of America the day Bill Clinton handed the country off to Dubya.
We had a budget surplus and a stable economy. We were respected throughout the world, which was by and large politically stable.
Now: economy currently going through the biggest collapse since the Great Depression. Islamic extremists pounding at Israel's gates. Iran's influence has grown steadily over the course of the Bush presidency. Alienated from our allies- leaders the world over winning election on an "against Bush" platform.
I cannot imagine a more incompetent playing into Osama Bin Laden's hands than Bush and his NeoCon cronies have done. Bin Laden and Afghanistan bankrupted the Soviets by baiting them into exactly this type of conflict, and they are doing it to us now. Surely you can see this. Nothing would please OBL more than a McCain victory in November. Our country would collapse in a year.
--obama's superior negotiation skillz will restore America to great respect! oratory will win over the world and the terrorists will have no respect anywhere because it will be so obvious to everyone that the harmony flowing out of barack's ass is in everyone's best interest!
dream on, you loons!--
You're the loon if you think this is a war that can be won with guns and bombs. Remember "hearts & minds"?
Terrorism is a swamp, if you want to win you have to drain the swamp. Bombing a swamp just makes bigger holes for the water to flow into.
First!
2. ?
2. POW
"Wow... just wow. Do you lefties really think that all we have to do to prevent war is not wage it? HELLO! They attacked US! They DECLARED WAR ON US! "
Agreed! Let's go attack the terrorists who attacked us, in the country where they can mostly be found: Afghanistan! I'm glad you agree and that I can count on your support for Obama.
Very well written. In my neighborhood there is this crazy republican (redundant) fellow that loves decorating his truck with all these sad little flags and sayings that no one has made big enough bumperstickers for. In 2004 he had a huge "Who would Osama vote for?" on his back window. I told him Bush and he flipped. I quickly explained two short points to him (well, shouted from across the street, as i was fucking with him at a stop light. I felt pretty bad about it afterwards.) 1. Osama wants to drag everyone into his gay war for his dumb fake god and 2. he is absolutely not afraid of dying, so whoever is not going to play along (Kerry) would be the choice for pissing off Bin Laden, the repressed homosexual lunatic (these are my new little embellishments. I like typing them). The old guy said some horrible racist shit (republican remember) and drove off to draw a giant elephant on his chest while he listens to that rad John Wayne record (America, Why I Love Her probably)or some nonsense.
John Peterson is your typical right wing ideologue not understanding the world beyond our borders. Bin Laden wants us in Iraq, he wants us in Afghanistan with more troops, more influence, more bombings, more conflict.
Obama is Bin Ladens worst nightmare. How could the evil infidels elect a black guy named Barrack Hussein Obama? Who will certainly be a sympathetic figure for Muslims abroad. A guy who doesn't believe Muslims are evil like Bush and the stupid rednecks.
Yes, if OBL shows up, it will be to help McCain, because thats what he wants. And John McCain is just the guy to delier it to him.
To the political science guru's.. Is there a way for Bush to "cancel" the election if the country is in an extreme state of emergency so that he can continue his presidency-whether it be for the economic meltdown or the prospect of war? I don't mean this in the sense of it being common sense cause he is so unpopular, I want to know as President, does he have such power to do so without the support of Congress or anyone else?
This might be one reason why Obama brings up Osama in every debate. Obama could probably capitalize or neutralize any Osama video by pointing out that Iraq has distracted us from Afghanistan, McCain's weird disagreement with Obama over attacking-Pakistan-when-we-already-are etc.
Putting out videos like this is sort of like the 4/11 attacks. A display of power over the electorate, or at least it can be interpreted that way. I honestly think Osama didn't care who won in 2004. He probably appreciated all the attention and discussion though.
The counter to that is some talk by Obama along the lines of "McCian keeps saying that he knows how to capture Bin Laden, so why hasn't he? Bin Laden is just as free today as when McCain started claiming that only he knew how to capture him".
New Fox News Poll:
Obama - 46
McCain - 39
+1 in last 2 weeks
+11 Change to Obama since 9/8 poll
Consistent w/ the trends we have seen..
Please, the Iraq/Afghanistan bait-and-switch, we-took-our-eye-off-the-ball revisionism is pathetic. I know it's high up on the liberal canon of This Endless War, but well, you guys are wrong about nearly everything.
First of all, Iraq was a liberal cause in pre-9/11 days much like Darfur is now. Everyone believed that Sadaam Hussein was committing horrific human rights offenses and probably possessed nuclear material and was making a nuclear weapon. They mostly believed that he was aiding terrorists.
Still, going into Iraq was a tactical decision, not one of principle. I know you lefties can't handle that. But the U.S. has finite resources and uses them strategically in order to accomplish an objective. We stood to gain far, far more in the region for peace and prosperity (and thus, our own interests) by stabilizing Iraq and Afghanistan. I ask any Afghans to forgive me, but their home is a shit hole. It is of little consequence. They grow opium poppies, and that's about it. Iraq is much more important to us and to the terrorists. They can hide out in Aghanistan and Pakistan. So what? The material advantage was in Iraq.
This liberal Iraq/Afghanistan, Afghanistan is the real war argument is stupid and unprincipled. Its basis is in political opportunism and little else. It is almost like saying that we took our eyes off the ball when we decided to fight Germany and Italy as well as Japan in WW2.
Our military leaders decided that it was in our interests to fight in Iraq as well as Afghanistan. It's a military and political decision. If you're opposed to all war, that's one thing, but to claim that Afghanistan is more important than Iraq has little grounding in reality.
Liberals do this constantly. They can't stand the thought that we would prevent genocide in Iraq but not Darfur because the former has strategic and long-term security interests for us. That's just how it works, people. That's foreign policy. That's diplomacy. That's leverage. Your presidential candidate doesn't get this, or he irresponsibly ignores these considerations. That is why it is silly to suggest that Osama bin Laden or any other of our enemies would fear him more than John McCain. It's just wrong.
Gerbie,
Your examples do not have an once of cause-and-effect to them:
1) The creation of Israel (so-called "wiping Palestine off the map) was a global effort, backed by the newly formed UN and the Soviet Union, and not targeted against Islamic fundamentalism. Nor did it result in the immediate rise of Islamic fundamentalism or a targeting of American interests as a result, at least not for many years.
2) The United States put bases in Saudi Arabia to protect Western oil interests and strategic shipping/trade routes, not to start a fight with radical Islam.
3) Giving Saddam Hussein "permission" to attack Iran (and that supposition is quite a stretch in and of itself) might have been to counter the spread of radical Islam, but not Bin Laden's brand of Islam. Or are you confused about the whole Sunni Shi'a thing too?
And lastly, go watch Charlie Wilson's War. We have found ourselves friendly with radical Sunnis when it has suited our interests. Both in Afganistan and, I suspect, in the former Yugoslavia.
Am I the only one having problems getting the home page to load properly? I am only getting the first 6 or 7 lines of the entry before the rest of the page cuts off. If I click on the link, I come here and everything is lovely. Weird.
That was a beautifully written article. Thank you for your insights.
We can all hope fuzzy brains over there sits on his head this month.
Some troll said
Wow... just wow. Do you lefties really think that all we have to
do to prevent war is not wage it? HELLO! They attacked US! They DECLARED WAR ON US! You can't give the terrorists less power and influence by withdrawing, somehow thereby giving them less influence! Is this really how you guys think? That is silly and dangerous.
--------------
If someone is trying to provoke a war with you, then sometimes cool heads are needed and war is not the best option. Do you think Al Qaida would give up and surrender in a war with the US? These are the people who are happy to fly planes into buildings and strap bombs to themselves. The best way to deal with Al Qaida is to stiffle them, use counter terrorist techniques to ensure that they don't hit us and therefore starve them of the oxygen of publicity. (Actually the Bush Administration ahs done a decent job of this). Even getting OBL would not necesarily be a smart move, as it would create a martyr whose name might rattle down the ages. If he has quietly passed away in the hills of Afghanistan or Pakistan then that might be the best thing for all, no martyr creation but no leader for a fairly diverse group.
the home page script is screwed up
Guys and gals. There's no need to panic. Check this out...
"Not surprisingly, following the release of his video, the needle moved a point or two – towards Bush."
According to RCP's national average, Obama's up by 6.2. Obama will still pull off a 4.2-5.2 victory if elections happened now with an al-Qaeda threat.
:)
I have been visiting occasionally but only looking at the numbers, not reading, so this article was a surprise. I knew you were an Obama supporter, but didn't you at one point say you weren't going to wax political on here.
Obviously that changed.
I still have a funny feeling your statistics are solid.
"It is almost like saying that we took our eyes off the ball when we decided to fight Germany and Italy as well as Japan in WW2."
We declared war on Germany and Italy because they declared war on us first. Their declarations of war were triggered by the agreements they had with Japan to go to war with anybody Japan was at war with.
As for Afghanistan: I was lamenting the fact that we were going to abandon Afghanistan for Iraq as early as summer 2002. I also repeatedly told people I knew that, if we were actually serious about going after countries based on their ability to hurt us, we clearly should have chosen Iran instead of Iraq. Choosing Iraq as the next target never made ANY sense.
Obama has already planned for the "October surprise" - why do you think he has bought 30 minute spots on three major networks?
He is preparing for something, anything.
And if nothing comes, then he can simply speak to the American people as he has at other time throughout the election.
Some troll said
First of all, Iraq was a liberal cause in pre-9/11 days much like Darfur is now. Everyone believed that Sadaam Hussein was committing horrific human rights offenses and probably possessed nuclear material and was making a nuclear weapon. They mostly believed that he was aiding terrorists.
------------------------
Seriously that complete and utter bull
from wiki (yes I know, but it is footnoted)
'With the election of George W. Bush as U.S. President in 2000, the U.S. moved towards a more active policy of “regime change” in Iraq. The Republican Party's campaign platform in the 2000 election called for "full implementation" of the Iraq Liberation Act and removal of Saddam Hussein, and key Bush advisors, including Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and Rumsfeld’s Deputy Paul Wolfowitz, were longstanding advocates of invading Iraq.[32] After leaving the administration, former Bush treasury secretary Paul O'Neill said that an attack on Iraq had been planned since the inauguration, and that the first National Security Council meeting involved discussion of an invasion. O'Neill later backtracked, saying that these discussions were part of a continuation of foreign policy first put into place by the Clinton Administration.[33]'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq
What conservatives do all the time, all the time mind, is twist history to suit there own grubby needs, even when it is as stupidly easy as looking in wiki to disprove that revisionist history.
I think we need to postpone the election, so that Junior can help us out of this financial crisis. We need the determination, steadfastness, and strong-mindedness (not to mention unwavering, unyielding persistence and tenacity) that saved us from Saddam Hussein and Hurricane Katrina.
McCain campaign manager Rick Davis
On that Acorn call, McCain campaign manager Rick Davis also credited McCain with "blowing ... up" the first bailout package when he suspended his campaign to come to Washington, something McCain's campaign had heatedly denied at the time.
Davis expressed outrage that, "in the middle of the greatest disaster in our financial system that we’d had in our lifetime, that the Democrats in the United States Senate would aIctually link payments to ACORN in the bailout package that they promoted -- prior to Sen. McCain coming to town and actually blowing that package up. So we can actually say that in addition to saving taxpayers millions of dollars, and we’re very happy that no more taxpayer dollars were added to the pile of money going to ACORN."
After the initial bailout package failed, McCain's aides blamed Obama:
"This bill failed because Barack Obama and the Democrats put politics ahead of country," Holtz-Eakin said
House Republicans had opposed the possibility that government profits from the deal would go to a housing fund for local authorities that could then be spent through ACORN, and those are the grounds on which Davis credited McCain.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Davis_McCain_blew_up_bailout.html?showall
OMFG
This is 2008, not 2004.
Americans are focused on losing their 401k's, pensions, medicare, mortgages, college loans, putting food on the table.
I highly doubt any announcement by Bin Laden would make a difference one way or another.
@ 3 ET new Ras polls
what states ?
apollodorus = dumbass neocon chickenhawk COWARD - fcuk you
Regardless of its merits, this post seems out of place on 538 right now. Link to it, fine, but this seems out of line with what has made 538 my favorite blog this year. Focus on what you are good at.
McCain campaign manager Rick Davis also credited McCain with "blowing ... up" the first bailout package when he suspended his campaign to come to Washington, something McCain's campaign had heatedly denied at the time.
So McCain is a domestic terrorist as well? And an unrepentant one, at that?
This is OT, but:
McCain's economic plan still includes privatizing Social Security.
Seeing what is going on in the stock market, wouldn't this be the perfect time for Obama to run ads about McCain wanting to put SS into the stock market?
Wouldn't that ad help out in Florida, for example?
"Alex Shiplett" said:
"Obama has already planned for the "October surprise" - why do you think he has bought 30 minute spots on three major networks?"
That occurred to me as well.
Obama so far has spoken really well about fighting terrorism. He said he wanted to hunt down and kill Osama Bin Laden, tough words especially coming from a Democrat. If it does happen, Obama has to jump on the issue early like McCain did on Georgia. Don't let McCain seize the issue, come out and sound as if you're going to go after him yourself and Americans will be reassured. Then harp on how Bush has failed to capture him and link that to McCain. That's the only way Obama can avoid an Al Qaeda October surprise.
Mr. Apollodorus/Peterson (since you same to be the same person) -
Here's a useful hint for the future: your constant use of the phrase "you lefties" marks you as a moron more than anything.
Unless you're one of those super-smart close-minded idiots. In that case, oh, wait, you're still a moron.
Are people ever going to understand that multiple people write for this site?
I mean, come on.
Great article BTW- far too many people forget (or don't know) about the motivation of 9/11
Real Joe - thanks for the story link. I was not aware that the 133 Republicans who voted against the initial bailout bill were actually Democrats. Wow. The things you can learn from the McCain campaign. It's staggering, really.
Florida - Obama Leads
* A Strategic Vision poll of likely Florida voters taken October 6-8 shows Obama leading McCain 52%-44%.
* A Rasmussen Reports poll of likely Florida voters taken October 8 shows Obama leading McCain 50%-47%.
Georgia - McCain Leads
* A Rasmussen Reports poll of likely Georgia voters taken October 7 shows McCain leading Obama 54%-45% in Georgia.
* A Strategic Vision poll of 800 likely Georgia voters taken October 5-7 shows McCain leading Obama 50%-43%.
Indiana - McCain Leads
* A Rasmussen Reports poll of likely Indiana voters taken October 7 shows McCain leading Obama 50%-43%.
Michigan - Obama Leads
* A Rasmussen Reports poll of likely Michigan voters taken October 8 shows Obama leading McCain 56%-40%.
Minnesota - Obama Leads
* A Rasmussen Reports poll of likely Minnesota voters taken October 7 shows Obama leading McCain 52%-45%.
* An American Research Group poll of likely Minnesota voters taken October 4-7 shows Obama leading McCain 47%-46%.
Missouri - McCain Leads
* An American Research Group poll of likely Missouri voters taken October 4-6 shows McCain leading Obama 49%-46%.
Montana - McCain Leads
* An American Research Group poll of likely Montana voters taken October 6-8 shows McCain leading Obama 50%-45%.
New Hampshire - Obama Leads
* An American Research Group poll of likely New Hampshire voters taken October 6-8 shows Obama leading McCain 52%-43%.
North Carolina - Obama Leads
* A Rasmussen Reports automated poll of likely North Carolina voters taken October 8 shows Obama leading McCain 49%-48%.
Ohio - Obama Leads
* An American Research Group poll of likely Ohio voters taken October 4-7 shows Obama leading McCain 48%-45%.
* A Strategic Vision poll of likely Ohio voters taken October 6-8 shows Obama leading McCain 48%-46%.
Pennsylvania - Obama Leads
* A Strategic Vision poll of 1,200 likely Pennsylvania voters taken October 5-7 shows Obama leading McCain 54%-40%.
Texas - McCain Leads
* An American Research Group poll of likely Texas voters taken October 5-8 shows McCain leading Obama 57%-38%.
Virginia - Obama Leads
* A Public Policy Polling survey of likely Virginia voters taken October 6-7 shows Obama leading McCain 51%-43%.
West Virginia - Obama Leads
* An American Research Group poll of likely West Virginia voters taken October 4-8 shows Obama leading McCain 50%-42%.
Wisconsin - Obama Leads
* A Rasmussen Reports poll of likely Wisconsin voters taken October 6 shows Obama leading McCain 54%-44%.
What short memories you liberals have. But that is not your problem. You believe in mean and nice, not good and evil. You think that bid Laden and radical Islam is "mean" to us because we are "mean" to them. It is childish.
They hate us for who we are; we are kafir, and thus it is honorable to kill us. That is why people say that radical Islam poses an existential threat. Our very being is abhorrent to them.
You liberals have this bizarre fantasy that everyone just wants to be nice, and we are just "downright mean" as Michelle Obama says. It's stupid and dangerous.
To suggest that bin Laden rejoices at al Quaeda's decimation in Iraq is just pure cognitive dissonance. They were used to their attacks not being rebuffed. But we have largely defeated them in Iraq. And they were and are in Iraq after our occupation. To deny this is to deny reality.
Radical Islam is not going to be won over by us being nice to them. They will sense weakness and move to destroy us.
They represent the cruelest form of Eastern despotism. They are barbarians, and to suggest that we have no moral superiority is pathetic. We must summon the will to defeat them, and the clarity of purpose necessary to oppose their barbaric vision.
You have no claim that Barack Obama is a superior leader in response to this threat. No. You deny that the threat exists at all; you say that we created it. And that is why we will fail, because you have been educated in the revolutionary, and not the Revolutionary, as in the promise of the American Revolution and the superiority of our political system and the need to defend it.
This is very sad, and now I must dwell on it. I can't stay here all day. Good bye.
Of course terrorists want McCain as prez if they are any students of history.
What is the recent history?
Terrorists attacked and the US primarily attacked a completely unrelated country and created more terrorists. How is this in any way tough on terror?
"Look out, if you attack us, we will attack someone six degrees separated from you but with suitably related ethnicity and/or religion"
lmao @ Rick Davis, he shoulda been fired over that Freddie Mac shit. McCain just didnt want to draw attention to it.
Lets assume for a moment that Bin Ladin is alive.
If he released a video it would have some effect, but probably only a fraction of last time. America is too caught up in the economy to care much.
If he launched a sucessful atack it all depends.
There is an asumption that McCain would make a better comander in cheif. But is McCain capable of taking advantage of a crisis? On the evidence so far no.
McCain would probably run arround like a headless chicken same as he has done in the present crisis.
McCain never had any relevant military comand experience, and any he ever did is highly outdated. Nether for that maner has Obama. The difference is that that Obama will consult the experts first before saying anything but platitudes.
Like McCain says, we need a cool hand at the tiller...
What would it do to the election if Bush revealed that Osama was captured and paraded him down the streets of Lower Manhattan in chains?
the mild Bin Laden effect, if any, also is probably diluted by the fact that americans no longer really FEAR osama bin laden. He has become a tactical boogeyman, and america knows it now. I think america is more afraid of Vladimir Putin than Osama Bin Laden right now.
Barack 'Osama' On Upstate Absentee Ballots
Start up those conspiracy-theory engines.
The TU reports approximately 300 voters in Rensselaer County received absentee ballots on which Barack Obama's name appears Barack "Osama."
Both the Democratic and Republican elections officials are insisting this was merely a "typo" and a "mistake."
Among the communities that received the flawed ballots was Brunswick, which happens to be the home of former Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno.
Enrollment in the county is fairly evenly split, with 29,892 Democrats, 29,363 Republicans and 33,663 blanks.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2008/10/barack-osama-on-upstate-absent.html
jason p. i think it would be the end of fear mongering as an effective political tactic because it would be so transparent and convienient
jason p. said...
What would it do to the election if Bush revealed that Osama was captured and paraded him down the streets of Lower Manhattan in chains?
what an imagination you have ?
Yes, OBL is likely to try to influence the election to help McCain. But the results may be different this time due to the financial meltdown--international terrorism just isn't what we fear most any more. And when it comes to scary crazy people, I'm much more worried about the lynch-mob mentality that McCain and Palin are fanning at their rallies.
Also--Please fix the front page! This is the only article I can see today (in IE 7).
for what it's worth, i just called my republican senator, Grassley, who I think is a good guy, and left a message encouraging him to issue a statement condemning the mcpalin hate fest. i think mccain is beyond reigning himself in at this point, but some moderate republicans coming out against his "strategy" might help deflate its force.
@apollodorus,
Liberals know that Sadam was evil. But that doesn't mean we wanted him removed militarily. Why replace one bad situation with another.
Most people who really understand the dynamics of the area predicted exactly what has happened in Iraq: an easy win vs. Sadam and his army, followed by years of chaos. Many speculate that Bush 41 knew this and was THE reason he stopped where he did.
Bush 43 wanted to invade Iraq no matter what. Whether for family pride or oil, or something else. Who knows. But many, many people expected that he would do so at some point in his presidency. 9/11 just gave him an excuse.
There were no connections between 9/11 and Iraq. Iraq was no threat to us. Bush had to tell many lies in order to get support. You don't have to lie if it is really good for you tactically.
And look at the difference in international support: we had a lot for Afghanistan, and very little for Iraq.
Who cares about the stock market? All real Americans care about is whether Obama is friends with Bill Ayers who used to be very, very mean towards America.
This means Obama is a dangerous terrorist, who will impose painful taxes on rich people, and is too risky for America.
Once McCain is elected, he will rid this country of planetariums, thus saving our financial system.
MCCAIN/PALIN '08
NO MORE PLANETARIUMS
Some troll has just neatly summarised why the right don't get the terror threat. We smply aren't going to hunt and kill every terrorist, without creating terrorists in ever increasing numbers, who we then need to go and hunt down. Its not terrorists we need to get rid of its the terror itself. We do that by promoting our values without being hypocritical as the US is so often. We can't say we are for freedom and then go invading nations.
I think early voting has unexpectedly screwed up the October Surprise tactic. Once, everybody except a minimal number of absentee voters voted before Election Day, so if something traumatic happened just before then, it would effect everyone's voting.
Now we've been voting in significant numbers for the past 3 weeks. Those votes are already in the can, along with whatever votes that are voted before any last-minute incident. If something happens October 23, any votes before then (and I believe there will be millions)won't be affected.
What if the expected thirty percent have already voted? That might be enough to give Obama an insurmountable lead in some states.
I have no doubt OBL wants us to stay in Iraq and keep fighting thus making McCain the preferable candidate. Our presence there has been a great recruiting tool for Al Qaeda. However, I doubt a video tape will really make much difference now that the war is so unpopular. Plus, I think it's arguable that the last tape really didn't make that big of a difference.
@ Jones Correa happening:
The short answer to your question about Bush's suspending the election is that there is no legal way for him to do it, barring circumstances so extreme that we need not concern outselves with them. (Something like a barrage of asteroid particles that wipes out a good chunk of the country, or a Russian nuclear attack).
Thre is another way, which is a coup d'etat. Not legal of course. If you think that's likely, it says more about your mental health than it does about reality.
Gerbie,
Your examples do not have an once of cause-and-effect to them:
1) The creation of Israel (so-called "wiping Palestine off the map) was a global effort, backed by the newly formed UN and the Soviet Union, and not targeted against Islamic fundamentalism. Nor did it result in the immediate rise of Islamic fundamentalism or a targeting of American interests as a result, at least not for many years.
Yes that is factual. However do consider by "we" i meant the western world lead by the US. And you are right we didn't do this to fight Islamic Fundamentalism. But the because "we" did not see to it that the Palestine state that was created in the last decades was given a genuine chance to become a success. We let Isreal totally destroy any chance of success there was. That is the wiping of the map I meant. So that slowly started to create the perception that "we" started the war wis Islamic fundamentalism within the minds of these fundamentalists. Therefor it is too easy to say "we didn't start" which is the comment is was replying to.
2) The United States put bases in Saudi Arabia to protect Western oil interests and strategic shipping/trade routes, not to start a fight with radical Islam.
Obviously that is true, and this is also the real reason we went into Iraq, knowing our Saudi Arabian presence is under threat because the house of Saud's impopularity, and concluding we may need a fall back in the region.
But also it's the perception that we are there because of our war with Islam the makes it too easy to say "we didn't start this". OBL has even referred to our military presence there as an excuse for 9/11.
3) Giving Saddam Hussein "permission" to attack Iran (and that supposition is quite a stretch in and of itself) might have been to counter the spread of radical Islam, but not Bin Laden's brand of Islam. Or are you confused about the whole Sunni Shi'a thing too?
No I'm not confused about that. I've actually commented on the relegious divide, the ethnic divide and the oil/no oil divide within Iraq and why that makes it very logical for Iraq to be ruled by Sunnie Arabs (Saddam). However, on the Iran Iraq war itself, this was indeed given a go ahead to stop the spread of radical Islam which is precisely why I mentioned it and also provides the first factual argument agains the "we didn't start this" line of reasoning I was reflecting on.
And lastly, go watch Charlie Wilson's War. We have found ourselves friendly with radical Sunnis when it has suited our interests. Both in Afganistan and, I suspect, in the former Yugoslavia.
Agreed on Bosnia, we are being seen as friendly there. Not so in Afganistans case (they do not tolerate any foreign mingling). However, this obviously is easily overlooked by the radical Islam, so still doesn't undermine their perception the we actually started this.
They hate us for who we are; we are kafir, and thus it is honorable to kill us. That is why people say that radical Islam poses an existential threat. Our very being is abhorrent to them.
And so we take a stable secular Arab state, destroy it, and turn it into an fragile Islamic state.
Good job, who could have seen that coming? (Oh that was me way before we invaded).
I think an OBL video, even one threatening McCain and America would be good for Obama.
Basically he could say - if we were in Afghanistan in appropriate numbers he would be caught or dead, and when I am president I will do whatever it takes to get him, even if that means bending the rules a little with an uncooperative ally.
Easy Judas with your comment on my reality, though I do appreciate your response to my question. I for one and never one to put anything past anyone at anytime, because to think you know it all, would block one's own sense of reality.
I think all will be well, and it shows that 23 days until election day is long enough for stuff like this to start popping up.
I have been posting sanely and coherently from the beginning of this site's creation, and I am a troll?
Here's an idea. Maybe when Senator Obama becomes President he can create a Commission on Trolling and he can levy fines on, or even censor, Internet trolls. Perhaps you, markymark, could get a job in the CoT. Markos M. could be the first Commissioner. We will no longer have to deal with pesky opposition arguments!
By the way, thanks for proving my entire argument:
Its not terrorists we need to get rid of its the terror itself. We do that by promoting our values without being hypocritical as the US is so often. We can't say we are for freedom and then go invading nations.
I couldn't have mocked the silliness of the left any better myself.
OBL told his followers in the early 1990s that his goal was to bog the US down in an unwinnable war in the Middle East.
He believes he can do it. Why? He's done it before. OBL was supported by the CIA in the 1980s to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. He successfully drove off the Soviets and the entire Soviet Empire collapsed soon after.
OBL figures that if he knocked off one super power, he can knock off both of them. He believes Allah is on his side. That's his interpretation of what happened the first time.
It makes perfect sense to me that he would want to keep the war going as long as possible. The longer the US is bogged down in the ME, the more resources it spends, and the weaker it gets.
He's probably gleeful about the bank failures and sees them as a sign he's on the right track.
The underlying economy in the US if very different from the USSR and while this war is badly hurting our economy, it isn't crippling to the extent the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was.
Anyway, those who think that OBL does not want the US bogged down in perpetual war in the ME are too bogged down thinking with an Amerocentric attitude.
The Muslims who die at the hands of American weapons in the ME are simply martyrs for the cause. OBL believes they will be rewarded in heaven for their sacrifice.
You have to get your mind into their headspace to understand them. That's the key to winning this kind of war and, so far, the US has done a terrible job with it.
apollodorus, you are an idiot. The United States cannot allow ANY country to become co-opted by Al Queda. Afganistan had been and provided Bin Laden with logisitical support, political cover and financial security. That is why it was the right decision to take down the Taliban and rout out Al Queda. The Bush administration failed at Tora Bora to drive home the victory and then allowed the Taliban and Al Queda to fester while it moved our military's Special Ops and attention to Iraq. Iraq could have been controlled through containment and an aggressive anti-Saddam coalition approach, much like North Korea and Iran have to be dealt with now. Instead, Bush shaded the intelligence to make a wrong-headed case for invasion and the inevitable nation-building that followed. Immediately after the invasion, Iraq was in absolute anarchy. Thank GOD they did NOT have nuclear weapons. If they had, that would have been the most likely time for them to fall into terrorist hands. Then, into the anarchy, came Al Queda in Iraq, and we had no choice but to stay and continue the fight against them, which we had created in that place and time.
i think there is a chance that the weekend before election day the McCain campaign leaks a photo of John McCain standing next to a open cooler which contains the severed bloody head of Osama Bin Laden.
On November 5th, DNA testing reveals that it was just a latex rubber Bin laden mask stuffed with pig brains and chitlins.
Jazayerli is right to be concerned about an October surprise in the form of a new bin Laden tape (or worse). Read FALSE FLAG 911 by Philip Marshall and learn why any such tape, when it comes, won't actually be by Osama bin Laden.
Making decisions based on what Osama bin Laden says is akin to convicting someone of witchcraft on the basis of spectral evidence. Why should you trust the Devil to show who's actually working for him in visions? Why should you trust the terrorists to endorse the candidate they actually want?
Better to just ignore the man entirely.
Excellent article. However, I don't necessarily agree with all of the premises upon which its based. For one thing, the atmospherics of the 2008 election are vastly different from 2004. Second, by the time OBL released his tape in 2004, Kerry had already lost credibility and the confidence of the electorate because of the SwiftBoat for Vets ads. Thirdly, since 2004, a sizable number of Americans have become aware that Repubs turn to fearmongering whenever they are losing arguments and support. That so-called raids on "terrorist" cells and reports of aborted, planned terrorist attacks are pushed by both the US and our European allies have been well established. Fourthly, during the 1st Presidential debate, Obama successfully passed the Commander-in-Chief test and he has not lost his standing. And lastly, McCain is losing credibility with Indies and moderates although his support remains fairly strong among Conservatives.
"In Ron Suskind’s book “The One Percent Doctrine”, published in 2006, he noted that the CIA concluded that “bin Laden’s message was clearly designed to assist the President’s reelection.” The fact that so many people initially thought otherwise reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of what it was that bin Laden was trying to accomplish on 9/11."
The fact that so many people initially thought otherwise reflects the fundamental idiocy of a large chunk of the electorate.
it was crystal clear then as it is now.
If I thought invading certain countries made America safer, I'd say go for it.
But we're doing a poor job of it and doing it at the expense of domestic counterterrorism, which is still woefully inadequate.
On the "Bush knows where OBL is and is waiting to get him" theories, remember that this administration is known first and foremost for incompetence. Grand conspiracies require intricate organization and rigid discipline. Does that sound like W to anyone?
"And they were and are in Iraq after our occupation. To deny this is to deny reality."
You should try living in reality.
Al-Qaeda had no presence in Iraq before Dumbya invaded and destabilized the country.
Then Bin Laden sent in people to stir the pot and make life difficult for the US troops AND build his own number.
Bush is responsible for more new terrorists than Bin Laden could have done on his own.
Bush played into Bin Laden's plans, not because he supports him, but Bush saw it as a way to increase his power through the use of fear. Which is the only thing he did competently.
Remember, on September 10, 2001, Bush was already a lame duck president. On September 11, he saw the attacks as a way to conquer the US through fear and division.
Bush's total mishandling of the response after 9/11 is why the US is largely considered the worlds most dangerous rogue nation throughout the world.
Internationally, the US has no credibility. McCain can only make that worse.
Domestically, through treasonous legislation like the "patriot" act has helped Bin Laden with a secondary goal of destroying the fabric of the US.
Then there is the total control that Bush allowed Wall Street that has put us on the brink of economic collapse. Because of the actions of Bush, our financial future is literally in the hands of Chinese banks.
Why anyone thinks the US is in the right, and on the right path and therefore want more of it with McCain is beyond me.
Don't forget, McCain can not even look Obama in the eye. What a coward.
For the people having problems viewing this site, don't use IE.
Yes, it is likely a problem with the HTML being generated on this web site, but IE has the worst rendering of all major browsers, and is a malware launch pad.
new thread
I think it is almost a certainty we will see a video of Bin Laden within the next 3 weeks. However, I also think most voters fear the current economic situation more. I also think Bin Laden's original goal was the collapse of our economic system. If this is true, we need to elect the person most able to deal with the current situation, a person who is pragmatic, and a person most open to exploring any and all solutions.
apollodorus is caricaturing the left, and unfortunately, many people seem to be playing up to his stereotype.
I am a dove - I don't like war, I believe in any war both sides suffer and that the first goal of any leader should be to avoid war. For that reason, even though Chamberlain was mistaken, I respect his commitment to peace. I'm glad there was a Churchill to step in, though.
You're absolutely right, apollodorus, that radical Islam hates the west. The conflict is historical, with roots all over the place, from the Arab occupation of Spain to the crusades and colonialism.
However, the idea has not been and never will be to make radical Islam our friends. The idea is to stop people turning to radical Islam in the first place. If you are a moderate Iraqi, radical Islam will sound much more appealing with its rhetoric against the West and the USA after the war than before it.
It seems to me, apollodorus, that you are conflating radical Islam and Al Qaeda. Perhaps Al Qaeda in Iraq was crushed: frankly, I don't know enough about the situation to comment. However, radical Islam, by being freed from the tyranny of a secular dictator, has flourished.
We haven't created radical Islam, but we have strengthened it. Iraq is a rallying cry, a banner for disaffected muslims to flock to.
As for Obama/Mccain on foreign policy - I worry that Mccain will continue to alienate allies of America in the same way Bush has. Obama's rhetoric is almost a tangible advantage here - people like, they like his speeches. Making speeches was Churchill's only strength, but it was enough to make him remembered as one of the greatest Prime Ministers of all time. Besides, Obama is hardly a dove. He is more doveish than Mccain, that's for certain. But he's almost certainly a better diplomat, and that's a massive part of foreign policy.
Please stay. I agree your arguments have been rational, certainly more so than those who have been mocking and insulting you. It disappoints me, but it doesn't surprise me - that's whatt you get when you walk into a stronghold of the other side, however. Doesn't matter if your views are rational, as they will be shouted down.
A subtle difference in this year compared to 2004 is that Obama has actually positioned himself as being more inclined to go into Pakistan than McCain if Pakistan continually proves unwilling to act on information regarding bin Laden within their borders. How readily that type of nuance makes its way into a cave in the hills is questionable. But that could be seen by some in the Muslim community as provocative, particularly coming potentially from one who rejected Islam.
I really don't think it will do anything this time around. We're having our October surprise, day after day of pictures with Wall Street traders staring at numbers on a screen with looks of horror, disgust, panic and defeat. Osama, if he's actually alive, could release fifty videos.
Hell he could release a video in which he states that he wants Obama to win because the two are old, dear friends and it wouldn't do anything. Israel could invade Iran, Russia could go on a scorched Earth campaign and Pakistan could drop a nuke in the middle of Bombay and no one would stop thinking about whether or not they'll have a job next month, next year, or how they'll pay the bills. In times of internal crisis the rest of the world might as well be another planet to average citizens. Unless, god forbid, we were attacked here, I doubt terrorism is going to regain its prominence as a topic. Probably why McCain pulled the Ayers add. People simply don't care about that stuff right now, and in the case of Ayers, rightfully so.
Fear and worry is about proximity and people don't need to look for it outside our borders right now.
Shap said...
Once McCain is elected, he will rid this country of planetariums, thus saving our financial system.
Best comment on this site i've seen so far. Thx you've made me laugh big time!
The American People have again and again proven themselves to be easily riled by Bin Laden and quickly driven to wrapping themselves in the flag and supporting the existing administration when he spews forth his invective. In all likelihood, should Bin Laden re-appear, it will have the same outcome. The (independent and undecided) electorate will rally around the existing administration (McCain) and lead to a real nail-biter of an election with a likely McCain victory. Should Bin Laden in any way endorse or perceive to endorse Obama - that will be the end of Obama's campaign.
'We shall be like a shining city on a hill'
John Wyndham, and quoted by Ronald Reagan.
Both Wyndham and, at least in his words, Reagan understood that the values of freedom are best spread through example and not through the barrel of a gun. To suggest that that is silliness is fundamentally not understanding the principles of freedom.
My point is that we just aren't EVER EVER EVER going to defeat terrorism by killing terrorists. That has never ever worked throughout history. What you need to do is to help people decide not to be a terrorist. Thats not going to happen without America as a 'Shining Light'.
[And whilst recogninsing your right to disagree with me publicly I refer to you as a troll because you SEEM to be here to pick fights with those of us who disagree and to insult and denegrate those of us who are not of one mind with you.]
The fact that Islamic extremists want war is painfully obvious to anyone with even a minor background in religious studies.
Islam prophesises that the End Times don't come with Muslims taking over the world - instead, Islam is nearly destroyed by a clash with infidels. The saying goes, "Islam began as a religion of strangers and it will end as a religion of strangers;" in other words, people will be as confused and condescending towards Islam in the end as they were in the beginning when the only Muslims were a caravan of followers reporting directly to the Prophet Muhammad.
The prophesy of the End Times also states that Judgement Day begins on the day that the Kabbah (A shrine that Muslims make their pilgramige to) in Mecca is destroyed. It was interestin to see Tom Tancredo, Republican congressman from Colorado, say that the U.S. ought to threaten to bomb the Kabbah to avenge 9/11; to Islamic extremists, such an act would be celebrated as the very moment that God cracks open the heavens and sends Muslims to paradise and infidels to hell.
This is the Muslim version of the Book of Revelations, and it isn't all that different from the Christian version; after all, Christians think the return of Christ is preceeded by a terrible reign of Satan via the Antichrist, Muslims think that Judgement Day is brought on by a violent attack on Mecca by a foreign empire.
I agree with Dan Schorr, who recently said, in effect, that the terrorists have won. OBL was fairly upfront about his aims: the dilution of American military power, and the economic ruin of the West.
I think bin Laden is unlikely to care much about the outcome of the US presidential election; but if his aim really is war, he would probably be better off casting his lot with Obama, whose doctrine with regard to Pakistan is considerably more bellicose than that of McCain, who at least in the short term would seem obligated to support the current government.
Who the hell really knows any more, though, about McCain? He could flip tomorrow, and then again the day after that.
Apollodorus: When you say shockingly stupid things, we call you a moron. It's very simple.
Prior to 9/11, "the left" saw Iraq as one of many places in the world with a horrible regime. We weren't big fans of Saddam gassing Kurds. As a rule, though, the left doesn't like the idea of America as the world's policeman. We *especially* hated the idea of going after a country that didn't actually, you know, *do the crime* of attacking us. And there has been absolutely no change in this view for seven years.
The "round up the usual suspects" method of international relations doesn't work. Picking out which enemies to attack based on which countries we dislike, rather than which countries or groups invite retaliation, does not work.
Barack Obama will be a better leader in the days ahead than McCain would be.
@apollodorus
One question for you, seriously:
Why then did bin Laden release a tape on Oct 29th 2004? You have to agree that if OBL knew anything about how Americans or people in general work (and it's pretty safe to say he does), then he would know that attacking Bush -- or hell, even *appearing* at all -- would favor Bush in that election. I mean that's a no brainer. (I'm even surprised that a lot of people here don't think it would have an effect on this election cycle, but I think they are just preserving their Obama-will-win mentality)
I mean the timing of it - it's exact. A couple days later and not as many people would have heard of it. A couple days sooner and the news story would have died by election day and the people get distracted. Perfect timing.
It's either a super huge coincidence, or OBL is very very stupid. And as much as we'd like to think it's the latter, we all know it's probably not true.
So, why? Do you think OBL really thought he would help Kerry get into office by releasing a tape attacking Bush? Do you think OBL is so naive to think that he can scare people into voting against war? Of all countries, America is obviously not one that will run away when provoked. He effectively baited us.
And another thing: it's not mean vs. nice. No one is that naive. It's good vs evil for sure. But we're bringing out the evil on our side, and that's not gonna help. We are confusing states with terrorists, and developing a broad general distrust/hatred of the muslim world.
It is good vs Evil, but we are deluding ourselves if we think that the evil is all on one side and that the good is all on one sid. How is invading another sovereign nation and occupying it, without any plan as to how to set up a post regime change administration for the nation not evil?
"But we're bringing out the evil on our side, and that's not gonna help."
Exactly!
Bush decided to use evil to fight evil, which can only bring more evil. We lost any moral superiority or credibility we once had.
Do you think Osama really cared that much about whether Bush or Kerry won the election?
Terrorists don't care about party politics, they care about publicity and influence. They don't care what effect they have, the just want to have an effect.
If Osama could, he would certainly issue some sort of statement about the election in the hope of getting media recognition/shifting the election. He's neither democrat nor republican.
I think this is a valid point that needs to be made louder.
Ever since the economic meltdown tilted the election toward Obama, I cannot stop thinking that a terrorist attack (or the fears of it) is a highly potential game changer in the opposite direction. The polls continue to show that McCain is maintaining a lead on terrorism and the war in Iraq. And if terrorism becomes the number one issue in American mind, then McCain will be the new Obama!
People might be able to live with unemployment, but they cannot live with a bomb. And the fear mongering tactics have been very fruitful in the recent elections. So forget about bin Ladan; what is there to stop an extremist supporter from faking a terrorist attack to shuffle people's priorities?
This is NOT too far fetched; remember the anthrax attacks? And I am not saying this is going to happened. But if there is a 5% likelihood, the Obama supporters should have a plan.
I think two things can be done to stop this. First, the Obama campaign should strengthen their lead on the war on terror. They should link McCain's "erratic leadership" and his poor judgment on the Iraq war, to gain some grounds on that front.
Second, they should help publicize articles such as this one, to put the likelihood of such conspiracy in the radar. If more people know about the real objectives and outcomes of such dirty plot before it happens, discrediting it would be much easier if it ever happened.
PIODalton, thanks for your intelligent response. You know, it's hard for me to do anything but caricature the left in this context.
I disagree with you that radical Islam necessarily flourishes or is strengthened by our militarism. I believe that American occupation serves as propaganda for the enemy to hate us, sure. But it's more complicated than that.
Iran has propaganda in Iraq. It doesn't say to the Iraqis, "America is inherently evil, look at what they have done to your country," even though the believe the first part of that proposition. It wouldn't make sense to them anyway because America has been a positive force in the lives of many Iraqis; anyway, they don't see it in black-and-white and have positive and negative feelings about America. Totally understandable.
Anyway, they say, "America is just here for a short time. They are exploiting your allegiances. America will leave. But we will always be here. Thus if you ally yourselves with America they will not be able to protect you and there will be consequences. Whereas if you are allied with us we can pressure them to leave. Look, they are leaving already."
So it is about more than just radical Islam hating America. It is about leverage. This goes to the argument that we supposedly strengthen the arguments of radical Islam by fighting in places like Iraq. The idea is that our intervention in Iraq serves to convince otherwise neutral Muslims and secular Arabs that the cause of radical Islam is just and that America is the evil aggressor.
First of all, that is a flawed argument because details of circumstance are really irrelevant to the justification for radical Islam. It is being a Jew or a Christian that is the abomination. But that is not the strongest argument for why the idea that our militarism strengthens radical Islam is wrong.
It goes back to leverage. When they see that we are willing to fight, that we put power behind our beliefs and interests, it actually weakens the resolve of people to join the fight of radical Islam, or to acquiesce to its power. I mean, these people don't want to live under Sharia law, most of them. It is horrible and barbarian. They do not want to be ruled by white people either; they want to be ruled by Arabs. But to suggest that Arabs are incapable of democracy, and some on the left argue, is verging on racism.
As for our Western leaders, I think you make my point when you say, "For that reason, even though Chamberlain was mistaken, I respect his commitment to peace. I'm glad there was a Churchill to step in, though." It's why America can vote for a Jimmy Carter and then a Ronald Reagan. A George Bush and then a Barack Obama. Even people who liked Carter voted for Reagan in 1980. Because while they admired Carter's non-violent principles, the situation called for strength, not vacillation and weakness.
What it comes down to today is that people do not feel the need for military strength, and that's why we are on the verge of electing Barack Obama. That's sensible enough.
But the idea that a terrorist attack would be anything other than good for the McCain ticket, or that radical Islam lives in fear of an Obama presidency, is ludicrous.
What has this election said about America's relations with the Arab and Muslim world? If this election has stressed that race should not be a factor- why does Barack have to try so hard to set himself aside from the Arab world, why do candidates try and portray him as a Muslim, and why does this affect American voters? Should Arab Americans be offended? Finally, does Barack Hussein Obama winning the White House mean that we are beyond Islamophobia/Anti-Arabism or does the fact he had to fight the rumors so hard mean that we are not?
Quick final thought on this thread. Chamberlain wasn't wrong over appeasement. Did it work out? No. Did it cause WW2? No. Not appeasing Hitler would have lead to war as well, and Britain, Europe, the world was not ready for war. It needed unarguable evidence that war was unavoidable. Chamberlain understood that war should be the last resort, not the first.
The October surprise if it does exist is Obama's Kenyan birth / Indonesian citizenship both meaning Obama is a naturalized US citizen (at best) twice over and is, therefore, constitutionally unqualified to serve as POTUS.
The Berg lawsuit in PA is playing out this month. Obama's "Certificate of Live Birth" produced by his campaign is not an original borth certificate and has several problems (lack of a seal, missing folds, spacing error in the date, race of father ...)
This is the true Hail Mary and is about all McCain has left.
Cheers
BREAKING RASMUSSEN POLL:
NL MVP
PUJOLS 21%
HOWARD 19%
RAMIREZ 14%
I really wish you guys would stick to baseball. This article makes zero sense. Osama bin Laden actually prefers the foreign-policy hawk who is dedicated to fighting his evil? Over the weakling? DREAM ON! This is one of the silliest things I have ever read. To me it is a JoeChat. It is a Bill Plaschke article on the grit of Juan Pierre. I mean, are you fucking kidding me? How is it that you lefties get to rewrite history?
Clearly you haven't done much reading. From General Patreus to Che Guevara, just about everyone who's ever given any serious thought about how terorism and insurgencies work, agrees that what the terrorist is aiming for is the following process:
1) terrororists do something outrageous (like 9/11) to provoke the government, hoping that:
2) the government overreacts in a way (like the unnecessary Iraq war) that annoys a lot of people in the area, who join with the terrorists (like the Sunni insurgency), giving them the resources to:
3) do something even more outrageous (like the burnings and beheadings anbd death squads in Iraq), with the aim of
4) makiing the government crack down even harder and annoy more people, leading to a vicious cycle that ends up in all-out war
So for steps 2), 4), the terrorist is hoping and praying that the government will be hawkish and will overreact -- that the only way the terrorist can ratchet up the spiral of violence agaiunst a massively superior opponent. The thing the terrorist most fears is that the government's response will be calm, considered, thoughtful, and nuanced. What they want is a flailing, hot-headed and badly aimed government crack-down that will recruit allies for the terrorist's cause.
Patreus's brilliant strategy (the same one that McCain is busy trying to take credit for) was breaking this vicious cycle of violence (which the Bush administration had been allowing to build up for the previous 6 years) by not overreacting, using a (financial) wedge to split the Sunni militias from Al Queda in Mesopotamia, and going in with a "local cops on the beat" approach to providing security.
So what Bin Laden, or any terrorist or revolutionary who has done any reading or thinging would want is for America to elect the most hot-headed, unstable, and hawkish leader it can, someone who will throw fuel on the waning flames of the Iraq conflict -- which is a perfect description of John McCain. So absolutely Bin Laden wants McCain to win -- he'd have to be an idiot not to. And if the best way to get that outcome is to endorse Barack Obama, that's what he'll do. Just like he did with Kerry last time.
pa john said...
BREAKING RASMUSSEN POLL:
NL MVP
PUJOLS 21%
HOWARD 19%
RAMIREZ 14%
game changer..LOL
glenn-in-colorado said...
The October surprise if it does exist is Obama's Kenyan birth / Indonesian citizenship both meaning Obama is a naturalized US citizen (at best) twice over and is, therefore, constitutionally unqualified to serve as POTUS.
The Berg lawsuit in PA is playing out this month. Obama's "Certificate of Live Birth" produced by his campaign is not an original borth certificate and has several problems (lack of a seal, missing folds, spacing error in the date, race of father ...)
This is the true Hail Mary and is about all McCain has left.
Cheers
Haaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaa
Scott, your question is serious, so it deserves a response. I think the most simple response is Aaron's: Terrorists don't care about party politics, they care about publicity and influence. They don't care what effect they have, the just want to have an effect.
There's truth there. There is a sense of just watching the world burn. Kind of like the purposeless violence and anarchy in our country in response to the Vietnam War. But that's not giving the terrorist networks enough credit for their... networking.
Anyway, the most likely explanation is that OBL miscalculated. He saw a great groundswell of distrust and dislike for GWB. He saw that a third of Americans thought the gov't was responsible for 9/11.
It is in actuality a very weak video, in which OBL basically says that he won't fight America if we don't elect Bush; but if we do, he'll retaliate. Did he think he could actually scare America into voting for Kerry? Perhaps. But it's more complex than that. As Yigal Carmon of the Middle East Media Research Institute wrote:
Another conspicuous aspect of the tape is the absence of common Islamist themes that are relevant to the month of Ramadan, which for fundamentalists like bin Laden is the month of jihad and martyrdom. Noticeably absent from the Al-Jazeera tape was his usual appearance with a weapon, and more importantly the absence of references to jihad, martyrdom, the Koran, the Hadith (Islamic tradition), Crusaders, Jews, and the legacy of the Prophet Muhammad on the duty to wage jihad against the infidels. For the followers of the al Qaeda ideology, this speech sends a regressive and defeatist message of surrender, as seen in the move from solely using jihad warfare to a mixed strategy of threats combined with truce offers and election deals.
So yes, OBL was actually stupid enough to think the American people would respond by thinking that the only reason he is fighting us is because of Bush, and that radical Islam won't be a problem if we don't elect him.
Which, ironically, is the argument of liberals today for Barack Obama.
My dad brought up a good logical point regarding a bin Laden reference McCain made… an interesting line of questions, though a politician never answers simple questions “yes” or “no” so you’d never get a clear answer… At any rate - at the last debate, McCain said, “I'll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I'll get him. I know how to get him."
So… question for McCain: “Senator McCain, since you have stated that you know how to get Osama bin Laden, have you shared this information with President Bush?”
If McCain says, “no,” he opens himself to a number of other questions, the simplest of which is, “Why not?” There’s no good answer for this… so the assumption is he’d have to say “yes,” even if he’d be lying.
So, if McCain says “yes,” then the next natural question for McCain: “Has the President implemented your recommendation?”
If McCain says, “yes,” then the obvious reaction would be – well, apparently you don’t know how to get him since we don’t have bin Laden.
If McCain says, “no,” then apparently the military doesn’t value McCain’s opinion much since they aren’t taking his advice – even after McCain has lauded praise on the top commanders in that region.
Anyway, just an interesting thought... that "I know how to get him" comment potentially could have opened him up to some hard questions...
The next month will do a lot to either prove or disprove the 9/11 theorists.
If there's no "terrorist" attack to derail Obama before the election, then it seems a lot less likely that rogue domestic elements were responsible for 9/11.
If there is...well...
Do you remember a McCain adviser said that a terrorist attack helps McCain.
And this RATS try to protect the country?
The core of your argument, as I understand it (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that Iraqis (and the Arab world generally) mostly dislike radical Islam but only submit to it through fear; a strong America, prepared to fight radical Islam, will therefore be a rallying point for these people.
Perhaps, but then surely the war on Iraq was wrong headed to begin with? (From a combatting the terrorists standpoint, I mean). The regime in Iraq was most definitely a horrible one, but it was a secular despotism - if America wanted to show its commitment to fighting the Islamic menace, the target should have been a state where Sharia law was actually practised, like, for example, Iran? It seems to me like the war on Iraq will even strengthen the type of propaganda you claim Iran is distributing: it is easy to say the USA has no understanding of the Arab world, lacks nuance and wants to exploit Iraq because if they were really serious about combatting radical Islam then why did they attack a secular country?
You're right, however, that a terrorist attack would help the McCain ticket - whether the perception that he is a better commander in chief is correct or not, that is the perception. Personally, I believe that Obama has better judgement on foreign policy and is better able to mobilise the USA and its allies then McCain is. But that's beside the point.
As I understand it, the difference between someone like Reagan and someone like Bush is that Bush was simply incompetent - he successfully alienated his allies and his own citizens while waging war in a seemingly incompetent way.
McCain Camp, RNC to Spend $160 Million in Final Weeks
John McCain's campaign and the Republican National Committee plan to spend "upwards of $160 million" in the final weeks of the presidential race, according to a senior McCain adviser.
This will represent a massive counter-attack to combat Barack Obama's lopsided spending advantage to date.
The McCain adviser told FOX News that, while Obama is outspending them in all but two of 14 battleground states, "that will change over the last four weeks."
As national and battleground state polls show McCain trailing Obama consistently, McCain is urging voters not to count him out.
"In case you missed it, this is about the seventh or eighth time that pundits have said 'McCain's campaign is in trouble,'" he told Wisconsin voters Thursday. "We fooled them then and we will fool them again."
Asked if McCain could still surmount Obama's polling leads, the McCain adviser said Missouri, North Carolina and Indiana are "either close to or leaning for" McCain, and that the Republican nominee "will win those without much issue."
"That brings us to 200 [electoral votes]," the adviser said. "The next level is where we make or break. We need to really worry about Ohio, Florida, Virginia and Nevada."
The adviser expressed optimism for those states, based on conditions viewed as favorable to the McCain campaign. In Virginia, for instance, the adviser said the military vote could "offset any increased African American turnout."
In Florida, the Hispanic vote is not a "normal Hispanic vote" due to anti-Castro fervor, and so Obama's inroads could be reversed. In Nevada, McCain -- from nearby Arizona -- is familiar to voters. And the adviser said Ohio "seems to be persistently stronger for McCain relative to the other states."
Under that game plan, the adviser said the election would, "come down to Colorado."
So far, polls show Obama leading in Colorado.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/10/mccain-camp-rnc-spend-million-final-weeks/
Obama drops nearly $2 mil on prime-time TV airtime
-Salon
out of curiosity, apollo, who are you voting?
Polling group: Obama's Florida lead due to greater support among white voters
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2008/10/polling-group-o.html
apollodorus:
I have some questions for you, hopefully relatively neutral and not to be perceived as an attack:
"America is just here for a short time. They are exploiting your allegiances. America will leave. But we will always be here. Thus if you ally yourselves with America they will not be able to protect you and there will be consequences. Whereas if you are allied with us we can pressure them to leave. Look, they are leaving already."
While I do understand your argument here and it does make sense, from a financial and economic standpoint (non-diplomatic, non-military in other words), I don't see how it's reasonable to expect the US as a country to continue to fund the war in Iraq / Afghanistan / (potentially) Iran indefinitely, and the country does (as you said) have limited resources and cannot wage war on all fronts simultaneously.
So how do we get out of it? How do you effectively end funding on the war and yet avoid the appearance of withdrawal / weakness? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm seriously asking it.
Also, it isn't intended as a partisan / gotcha question at all, I just don't see a way out of staying there indefinitely since it seems that radical Islam isn't something that's ever going to simply disappear.
But the idea that a terrorist attack would be anything other than good for the McCain ticket, or that radical Islam lives in fear of an Obama presidency, is ludicrous.
Unless I drastically misread the message, I don't think this was the point. Apart from anything else, they did say that a terrorist video or attack would be likely to swing voters in favor of McCain.
My impression is that the whole point was not so much that they are scared of Obama, but more that it decreases their relevance or ability to entrench the world in war if the sitting president is only interested in hunting them and does so with care, making sure not to go after other groups by association or mis-association. If their ultimate goal is to trigger the End Of The World (TM), then a president who avoids unnecessary fighting and goes after them exclusively is not going to serve their means.
All of the above said, I agree with the folks above who mentioned that this article really doesn't belong on fivethirtyeight.
Bush isn't "simply" incompetent, he is incompetent in extremely relevant ways that nevertheless have more to do with domestic politics than the resolve to defeat the enemy. He has resolve in spades.
But one cannot win wars without the popular support of Americans, as our previous disasters have shown. Despite the current triumphalism of Bush, McCain and the hawks on Iraq, I think the war there is unwinnable as long as it does not have popular support. Which is evidenced by its unpopularity and the unwillingness of even John McCain to defend it (besides his told-you-sos on the surge) during his campaign.
Bush's administration misled the American people. There is no mistake about that. That is a key difference with Reagan right there.
I think the American occupation of Iraq was a good, strategic decision. However, such an enterprise has little chance of success without the support of the people (of America and Iraq), and the Bush administration's obstinacy in that regard-- the presumption that American popular support, and until recently, the support of counterinsurgent groups in Iraq, are irrelevant-- has probably doomed Iraq II to eventual failure.
Still, PIODalton, you have characterized my position accurately and fairly, and I thank you for it.
Now I have stated my position clearly and there is little else to say. It was fun.
AP:
Candidates meet 'natural-born' test despite rumors
Link
Hey.
I just want to jump in late, and I haven't read all the comments yet(will do so), but I think US fighting in Iraq, bankrupting itself is the wet dreams of Al Qaeda. Really the whole neocon supposedly hawkish foreign policy, has just driven up the debt of the country. By making the US financial system and economy fall under the burden of the now 10 trillion dollar and ever increasing debt, fighting the so called "war on terror", it will cause a world wide financial collapse, and play into the hands of the terrorists. And doing what? Some attacks here and there and fighting in afghanistan and Iraq? I really hope that Obama is elected. Don't forget, the economy is also a foreign policy issue. If the US has a weak economy.... well lets just say it decreases the US influence and ability to defend itself and project power worldwide.
Also, for the record, I think apollodorus is exactly the kind of right-winger this site needs. He's stating his case clearly and rationally, and not simply posting
This is GREAT NEWS!!!! For JOHN MCCAIN!!!!!
Apollodorus, stuff it. Only the confused Bush base is still buying the type of garbage you are posting here. The entire nation was behind the Afghanistan effort, because THAT really pertained to defending the country. Your crap about only the "hawks" being willing to fight terrorism is the sad shell of writhing rhetoric your crowd is reduced to these days.
What bin Laden wanted of course was a bigger, wider war that would draw more and more moderate Muslims (and indeed plenty of non-Muslims altogether) into hating the US and making him into some kind of prophetic martyr-leader. Mr. Bush was dumb enough to fall into this trap by invading a huge Arab country in cold blood, urged on by his oil cronies who knew they would benefit in the form of sweeter crude oil deals in Iraq. (As they have, starting with Hunt Oil.)
Your struggling-adolescence chest-beating and that of others like you has made this a weaker, poorer, more hated and less safe country. Please crawl in a hole somewhere now and give this country a fighting chance at survival. Many thanks.
Davis predicts double-digit losses for House GOP
Link
Josh, your points are good and your question relevant. How do we win the war in Iraq? Consider this.
The U.S. is fundamentally weakened in its negotiating position with Iraq in opposing competing claims from Iran. This is because the USA is unable to promise an equal commitment to what it is asking from the Iraqi military over the next five years or so.
Congress basically told Bush that it would not sign any agreement that would commit the next president to anything. And the level of forces we would need to maintain in Iraq over the next five years would certainly require Congressional approval. And it just isn't there.
What kind of levels? Think 100K troops in Iraq for the next five years. Not going to happen, no way, no how, Nobama, no McCain.
Why is this necessary? As violence is drastically reduced in Iraq, it is necessary for American troops to ensure the fairness of the burgeoning political process and the mitigation of Iranian influence through at least two elections, enough to give the Iraqi people a sense of the own determination of their own political fates. This is not a pipe dream; it has happened before.
However, we will not commit to such a troop level or political responsibility for what happens in the region. As a consequence of this, it is extremely likely that the Iraqi political system will deteriorate into a self-destructive cycle of factionalism and foreign influence. This is, of course, not the desired outcome.
Just quickly, I am not someone who thinks we should have a zero tolerance policy against 'trolls', I enjoy the debate, and replying to apollodoros and his likes, further convinces me of my own correctness. (I am sure he feels the same in reverse mind).
Angelina Jolie Backs Barack Obama
Link
OMG
*** balls explode ***
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