10.29.2008

Florida Flashback

From this PDF, a riveting blow-by-blow of the disaster that befell one network's Election Night coverage eight years ago. I'm going to be providing a number of reminders to you guys over the course of the next week that exit polls in particular, and even to some extent the networks' calls of particular states on their Election Night broadcasts, should not necessarily be taken at face value.

2:15 a.m.: Fox News calls Florida for Bush, giving Bush the presidency.
2:16 a.m: NBC calls Florida and the presidency for Bush.
2:17 a.m.: The Decision Team completes its review of the Florida data and the apparent Bush lead of some 51,000. However, it bases its calculations on information from VNS and is not checking on vote counts of the AP, which is showing Bush with a 16 smaller lead and losing ground, or with the vote counts from the Florida secretary of state. AP has just caught the Volusia County error and has restored votes to Gore, so that AP now shows a Bush statewide lead of only about 30,000. The Decision Team, unaware of this, recommends to CNN and CBS that they call Florida for Bush, and they do so.
Shaw tells CNN viewers: “George Bush, governor of Texas, will become the 43rd president of the United States. At 18 minutes past two o’clock eastern time, CNN declares that George Walker Bush has won Florida’s 25 electoral votes and this should put him over the top.”
Jeff Greenfield adds that “with Florida, he gets 271 electoral votes, one more than he needs. What happens in Oregon and Wisconsin now becomes irrelevant unless by some remarkable miracle some state changes course.”
Much of the discussion over the next hour discusses the apparent Bush victory and the coming Bush presidency.
2:20 a.m.: ABC calls Florida and the presidency for Bush, the final network to do so. AP and VNS have not called Florida for Bush and never do.
2:40 a.m.: The Decision Team relaxes “for the first time all night” as more voting data comes in. VNS shows Bush’s Florida lead growing by just over 4,000 votes to a total of about 55,500 with only 68,500 votes left to be counted. (In fact, there were nearly 250,000 uncounted votes at that time).
With the data it had at 2:40 a.m., “we would have most certainly made the call then if we had not already made the call at 2:17 a.m.,” the Decision Team said in its postelection review. “We would not have been doing our jobs if we had declined to project the race based upon such convincing data.”
2:48 a.m.: Volusia County corrects its mistaken vote totals and Bush’s statewide lead narrows to 39,600, according to VNS.
3:00 a.m.: Most of the remaining vote from Palm Beach Count comes in, which narrows Bush’s lead further to about 11,000. The Volusia and Palm Beach changes make the race so close as to have “eliminated our margin for error,” the Decision Tea says later.
At the same time, CNN’s Bernard Shaw is telling the audience: “The United States has a new president. He’s the Texas governor, George Walker Bush, who tonight defeated Vice President Al Gore.”
Correspondent John King reports from Nashville that Gore ha called Bush to concede and is on his way to downtown Nashville to deliver concession remarks. Gore’s decision is based, in some large measure, on what television is reporting.
The anchors note that Bush’s lead appears to be only about 11,000 votes out of 5.6 million cast.

See the document ... pages 10-20 or thereabouts, for the rest.

212 comments

newsinOH said...

At least close to first!

Joe of Parma said...

i'm waiting for 538 to call states on election night

newsinOH said...

Diageo/Hotline
10/26-28,08; 870 LV 3.3.%
Mode: Live Telephone Interviews

National
Obama 49, McCain 42

newsinOH said...

And this article made me sick to my stomach all over again, which is why this just cannot be a close election!!!

Elliot Tarabour said...

Having the MSM call it for Bush???? Doesn't this completely contradict the Right Wing meme that the MSM is an agent of the left?

Unfortunately this put Gore on defense and Bush on offense. Like the gettting the ball first in OT.

e.

Inspired Sis said...

This was my personal nightmare, one I will never forget. I watched those crazy shenanigans on Faux News from South Florida. *shudder*

Never again.

yiannis said...

This thread churns my stomach up. The world would be very different now if President Gore hadn't conceded.

Ben said...

VNS does not exist anymore and was replaced with EMR/NEP. The systems are different, and the models are more robust. Also, the process for calling races has changed somewhat. There is now a higher statistical standard then there was in 2000. As someone who has worked the decision desk at a major network in 96, 04, 06, and 08 I'm very confident of our calls now.

Adam said...

Nate, can you fix the formatting on your copy & paste, please? The line breaks jump all over the place (this on firefox).

Thanks!

kellysirkus said...

"a collective drag race on the road to democracy"
CRASH! BURN!

newsinOH said...

yiannis,

True but, on the bright side and with fingers crossed, Gore and/or Kerry victories wouldn't have let the Repubs' true colors and faulty policy come to light. They needed to have power long enough so that they could, hopefully, be discredited into marginality.

We all suffer as a result but if it pushes their ideology to the fringes, where it always has been and deserves to stay, then it may have been worth it in the long run.

kellysirkus said...

Remember how quickly Lieberman told the Gore Campaign to give up and concede?

boy, we should have seen what was coming with LiarMan

Birchbeer said...

Unless Florida and Ohio can get called for Obama before 11 Eastern, Obama probably can't hit 270 until the West Coast comes in at that time.

Nate or Sean, thoughts on when states may be called?

Indiana and Virginia close 7 Eastern, Ohio 730. Any of those going for Obama bodes very bad for McCain let alone 2 or all.

David said...

Even if they may have overdramatized it, I loved HBO's Recount's retelling of Election Night 2000 and the Volusia County error.

It really gives you a sense of the chaos of that evening, and at least a peek of what it must have been like inside the Gore camp.

Tyson said...

'We all suffer as a result but if it pushes their ideology to the fringes, where it always has been and deserves to stay, then it may have been worth it in the long run.'

I hope so but I thought the same thing after Nixon. Even with a horrible 8 years, a fractured platform and one of the worst campaigns in history the GOP still has a 41-45% base to work with....and the large majority of that base gets screwed the most by the GOP policies.

Badgerhair said...

A couple of points on the McCain campaign internal memo:

1. It was leaked, which means that the McCain campaign wanted it to be seen in public. If you were writing something that you wanted everyone to see, would you not phrase it in terms favourable to yourself?

2. Even so, it is the language of a campaign which is losing and is desperately trying to shore itself up. Internal memos in winning campaigns are generally far more self-critical and concentrate on the bad news rather than the good. When you're ahead, you spend your time obsessively looking round the ship to see if any holes or leaks are appearing.

And on a more general theme, by this stage of the game national polls mean sod all, and state polls only mean a little. Everything now rests on the strength of the respective GOTV machines.

Were Obama's a campaign I was directing (and I've directed a few here in Britain), I would be a reasonably happy camper with the polling numbers (assuming that my own canvass returns say something pretty similar).

The message has basically been sold, according to those numbers, and now the problem is translating intentions into actions.

I hope the O camp have identified some seriously ill people they can help to polling stations: almost nothing is as dispiriting to opposition workers as seeing you wheeling voters in to vote who can hardly stand up but are obviously desperate to support your candidate.

The air war is almost over. It's now down to the infantry on the ground to overrun their opponents.

Redshift said...

This thread churns my stomach up.

Yeah, I know. I couldn't watch Recount (even though I love Danny Strong, who wrote it.) The memory of the howl that went up on Election Night when they flipped Florida after projecting Gore as the winner is still too raw.

I was part of the friendly "protests" outside the VP's residence during the recount. We had good-natured chanting back and forth between the groups on opposite corners, in those innocent days when we still believed the GOP had some respect for the rules.

Charlie said...

Hey, what's going on in North Dakota?

Only 3 votes so who really cares, but still, craziest tracking chart of the lot...

http://www.pollster.com/polls/nd/08-nd-pres-ge-mvo.php

Did McCain stand up and declare his love for South Dakota or something?

newsinOH said...

badgerhair,

Ground game, it is!!

I know O's got one hellacious GOTV effort underway.

I know little of the GOPs, which was very strong in the past. Any local insights into whether it's been able to reconstitute itself??

I know a big part of their past efforts were fear based: fear of gay marriages--quick, get to the polls (and while you're there, vote for us!!) But was that it????

Valpey said...

I had comfortably erased this nightmare from my memory. Thanks a lot.

Eric said...

You Brits out there, I know there are a lot on the site, are you generally enthusisastic about Obama? We're a little ethnocentric over here, so it almost seems strange that there's a large swath of people all over that care a lot about our election overseas. I know we're an important nation to everyone and our leadership has gone particularly wrong lately, but is the optimism of an Obama Presidency real out there? Or do people not really care? I saw Tony Blair as a good leader that got bamboozled and drawn into the politics of a bad American administration that was a primary reason for his downfall. In that respect, if I read that right, I'd guess you guys would be more focused on the next US President and hope it's not more of the same.

Todd said...

newsinOH said...
And this article made me sick to my stomach all over again, which is why this just cannot be a close election!!!

October 29, 2008 11:15 AM
Inspired Sis said...
This was my personal nightmare, one I will never forget. I watched those crazy shenanigans on Faux News from South Florida. *shudder*

Never again.

October 29, 2008 11:16 AM
yiannis said...
This thread churns my stomach up. The world would be very different now if President Gore hadn't conceded.


I know the feeling.... ugh.

Bill P. said...

Gawd, the MSM sucks!!!!

Here's Howard Fineman of Newsweek, pusing the whyisn'tObamaleadingbymoreohmygodhecouldlose" myth, using the debunked Gallup "traditional LV" model, which assumes it's still 2004.

Believe what you want, Fineman. You will soon discover that reality has a liberal bias. America is about to completely repudiate conservative mythology.

Let the right-wing whacko wailing begin! I can't wait!!!!!

newsinOH said...

charlie,

Just looked at the SD chart--WTF?????

PeixeGato said...

If the Florida debacle makes our stomachs churn, just imagine how Gore feels. If that were me, I'd have had to get some SERIOUS counseling to learn how to live with what had just happened to me.

As bad as it was, it was something we have hopefully learned from. I hope that at some point during Obama's first term he addresses the horrible state of our election system. I wouldn't recommend he tackle it first off (lest he be cast as yet another polarizing figure), but I hope he will address it at some point. It is a travesty that in the wealthiest democracy in the world, people have to wait 6 hours to cast a vote during EARLY voting.

MysticLaker said...

can someone who knows math better than me help explain this?

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9479

it's about RAS's result the last two days...

newsinOH said...

sorry, meant ND chart

smarrja said...

What I remember from the reports of that night is how it was reported Lieberman quickly urged Gore to give up. What a loser!!

Lieberman should be tarred and feathered!!

Eric said...

Florida will be locked up as of this time tomorrow.

Colorado, Nevada, Virginia, Pennsylvania already locked up.

Ohio locked up by tomorrow afternoon.

Christopher said...

At what time do election night results start getting called? Is it just based on when the polls close in each state (e.g. they'll start talking about Virginia once polls have closed in Virginia)? And is there a standard time (based on the local time) that voting ends, or can it vary from state to state? Sorry for being such a numbskull. My HS basketball coach taught government (draw your own conclusions), and it was 10 years ago to boot!

Raj said...

Were the recommendations adopted? Is there a second source? Is there an academic institution involved? Thanks.

john said...

Long-time reader, first time poster, blah blah blah.

I'd like to get some opinions from the well-read and informed people I've seen posting on this site. Back in 2004, I cast my vote for George Bush. To that point, I thought Bush was a terrible president, and I would have much rather seen Kerry in office for the next 4 years. My reasoning was this: with another 4 years of Bushian ineptitude, the country and perhaps the world would eventually become so fed up that wide-sweeping change, whether in the form of politics or, in the extreme, revolution, would come around before it was all said and done.

1. Is this an irresponsible rationale for casting a vote?
2. While it certainly remains to be seen in a week, did I succeed? Would a Kerry administration have gotten us to where we are now (and hopefully will be)? Or was this only possible because of the past 4 years?

Charlie said...

NewsinOh - See what I mean...it's crazy, huh???

Eric: I'm a Brit...we [heart] Obama, basically. Liked McCain before he went crazy - Palin the final straw. The world needs Obama because the world needs the US to be a good thing again - stop developing countries thinking Russia or China is a better system to aspire to

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Andrew said...

The "socialist" BS is pretty easily knocked down if you fight back with the facts - I do think they need to do that.

You're right about that. It's pretty easily refuted.

"John McCain says I'm a socialist. But the tax rates under my plan would be lower than what Ronald Reagan enacted. Does John McCain think Ronald Reagan was a socialist?"

Or, as I heard the other night on T.V. "If Obama's tax plan is Socialist that would make Nixon a commie"

Vinny said...

Hey, what's going on in North Dakota?

Palin effect. When she was announced and after the RNC, states like ND jolted up for McCain. There was a similar effect in Montana, Alaska, etc.

But now that nobody likes Palin anymore...what comes up must come down.

PeixeGato said...

Regardless of what Lieberman wanted, it was Gore's campaign. He was in charge and he had the final say. He alone has to live with the responsibility of making that decision. I'm sure living with that decision hasn't been easy, particularly when Bush's true colors finally came out. Anyone who saw An Inconvenient Truth can plainly see that Gore is still angry and pained (or was when the movie was produced) about what happened in 2000.

Eric said...

Tho only thing that would make me feel better if I was AL Gore would be if I could win the Nobel Prize, make $100s of millions of dollars, become more respected than ever before, and be the leader of a fight for a cause that can help save the world.

Oh, wait.

RWD said...

@Vinny, yep, the Palin/Convention effect. Another example: NC. NC had polls of McCain +20, +17 and +11 in the first part of September.

Vinny said...

Like another guy said, I think the 8 years of Bush might have been worth it. The solid GOP base is dying off, and if McCain doesn't win this election, the GOP will be in shambles. Plus, if it wasn't for Bush, the Democrats might never have made such substantial legislative gains.

newsinOH said...

peixegato,

Having lived through chads and electronic voting here in OH, I'm very hopeful that the scanned paper ballots could end up being the solution.

One of the biggest advantages it offers is that no "voting booth" per se is needed. Long lines at the polls largely resulted from too few booths and long ballots. This year, we can also hand out clipboards and let voters sit in chairs at tables to vote if booths are full.

Also, with the scanners, while voters can and prefer to scan their own ballots (which has proven to be even faster than trying to push the ballot through the ballot box slot!), they can just deposit the ballot in the ballot box for later scanning.

If this works even 1/2 as well as it appears that it will, hopefully we'll have a system that can be adopted on a broader scale.

eve said...

The repubs are playing that scene from 2006 when Rove said "I have THE math."

They want us to believe that all the polls are wrong and they have the true numbers. Next Palin will be telling us God gave her the right polling numbers and that all pollsters and analysts are commies in on a huge conspiracy.

But what else can they say? They want to get repubs to the voting booth. The truth will depress their turnout. Thus we get all this garbage.


word: prowess

john said...

As an addendum to my post, I'm 23. 2004 was my first (and only) vote. Does that change your answer?

Sarah Clark said...

I flinched when this post came up, and just deleted a comment asking for a change of subject. But then that flashback gave way to purpose. The last 8 years have seen the decadence and fall of an outdated political and economic philosophy that has made the US poorer and less secure. We took our freedom and prosperity too much for granted after the cold war, and the demagogues took advantage of our complacency.

newsinoh is right--the theft of 2000 planted the seeds for the revolution of 2008. We can't take this for granted, and we can't let McCain anywhere near the margin of error. But for the first time in my lifetime, hope is becoming a stronger force than fear. If that can come to pass for the next generation, I will gladly pay the price of 2000.

beamman said...

badgerhair.... I had some similar thoughts on the McCain "memo" that I posted on a thread yesterday, but I'll repeat here (since the other was in the 200+ window):

I don't buy that this memo is a bona-fide, intended-for-internal-consumption strategy memo. It is WAY too pre-occupied with advocating campaign talking points and is just an instrument of spin.

It is too giddy an assesment of how there is this wave of bumfuck rural voters who will amazingly turn out and bring McCain to victory.

Either this wasn't really intended for internal consideration, or John McCain and his honchoes are like Saddam Hussein, surrounded by operatives too terrified to give him their candid and sober analysis.

Oh, but I found it interesting that the memo stipulated that there is going to be HUGE turnout of A-A's and young voters (though they tried to spin that as just being part of an overwhelming trend among all voters, including the white, rural bumfucks).

Ames said...

Reading this again churned my stomach. I still cannot frakking believe it. Ugh. Thank you Supreme Court - and Justice O'Connor, the "swing vote" on the bench - for dooming our country.

Juris said...

As analysts we need to continue to realize that "who won" and "by how much" cannot be answwered with a single number.

In the 2000 election, if you had asked (as did the exit polls) in Florida: for which candidate did you go to the polls to vote for, the majority would honestly have answered "Gore." Then there was the butterfly ballot which all by itself gave 6000 Gore votes to Pat Buchanan.

If you counted the actual valid votes in Florida as cast, Bush probably won by a small number (ca. 500).

If you restricted the overseas ballots to those that were certified as cast in time, Gore probably won.

All of these are different ways to ESTIMATE who won, but only the legal, certified count -- and the one that in FL in 2000 a majority of the US Supreme Court -- chose to recognize -- mattered ultimately.

As of today, we also have a whole lot of entirely unofficial estimates of who will win on November 4th. And on election day, we'll have exit polls that may provide some insight into how certain groups of voters voted. But neither of these sources will be official in any way, nor can they be relied on as anything but approximations.

That said, the Republicans have realized for a long time that "who counts the ballots" is more critical than "who casts the ballots" (or thinks they do). And so they've played their usual hand of suppressing voting turnout through both legal efforts (voter ID laws) and dirty tricks and arbitrary actions (e.g., threatening financial sanctions -- loss of fincancial aid -- against college students in VA if they voted in their college towns instead of at their family's home addresses).

And so even the final, official tally of votes on November 4 will have been just an approximation or estimate ofr the true intentions of the eligible voters.

THAT is the main lesson to learn from the 2000 election. The battle will be won or lost at the ballot box -- or the tallying of actual votes -- and not in the pre-election polls, the post-election polls, or even the intentions of actually eligible vote-casters on November 4th.

Coyote said...

I was living in Canada during the 2000 election, they were really mystified as to why it was taking us so long to pick our president. In 2004 I read "the best democracy money can buy" which was quite the left leaning book but it gave a great play by play story of how the election was 'stolen' before the first votes were even counted. Then just a few weeks ago I watched HBO's recount on a flight to Hawaii, made me so damn mad I started yelling at the tiny screen in the back of the seat in front of me. It was about then the Flight Attendant cut me off from any more booze.

Uncle Sam said...

So to whom should we turn on election night?

Josh said...

Don't let this election be close like in 2000. OBAMA 08!!!

Tell your friends & family about VoteForChange.com - You can use it to find your polling location and if you can vote early.

Also, we must push back strong on the Barack Obama Is A Socialist Smear.

Jonathan said...

In response to john, my two cents:

1. Is this an irresponsible rationale for casting a vote?

My grandma always told me to vote my conscience and I took her words to heart, so I could never have voted for Bush, even though the same thought crossed my mind. Closest thing to an answer I could give you. Do you feel guilty? If not, then don't sweat it.

2. While it certainly remains to be seen in a week, did I succeed? Would a Kerry administration have gotten us to where we are now (and hopefully will be)? Or was this only possible because of the past 4 years?

In the short run, all data seems to suggest that yes, the Bush administration has done what you hoped it would do. In the long run, we can't really say. Theory of complex systems tends to indicate that it all evens out eventually anyway, and everything tends toward whatever trends they were moving toward anyway. But that the end result can be dramatically different base on one single movement early in the game. So, yeah, you may actually have saved the world there, but we'll never know or be able to prove it, because there are too many variables in the system.

Ultimately, even with Barack winning, we still have to live with our ultra conservative neighbors. It's not like they're going away.

Subterranean said...

As Rasmussen mentioned, the "always votes" demo is probably O+1 at most. But I think the popular vote will look like 52.5%O, 46.5%M, 1%[B/N].

Reasoning is simple. BHO will get a huge increase in AA turnout, a notable increase in youth turnout, and above-average turnout from the rest of the base.

McCain will get poor turnout across the board. Palin effect!

Eric said...

Great to hear Charlie. I guess that wasn't that hard to figure.


John, regarding your vote for Bush, are you serious? you actually were motivated to go vote for Bush in 2004 with that purpose in mind? That's remarkable! Perhaps it worked. my sense is we're at a moment similar to 1932 and 1980 where one party gained power for most of a generation or more as a change in the electorate. Hitting rock bottom, so to speak. I always felt that was going to be necessary.

Obama comes along in the national spotlight in 2004. Thanks God. After seeing this country elect W. bush again in '04, I was thinking rock-bottom was going to be put off for about 10 years. My sense of that moment would be Roe V Wade overturned in about 2015 by an ultra-conservative court. i was teying to decide if that was worth getting america back from the Conservatives. Fortunately, it may not have had to take that. I hope this is our momnent.

newsinOH said...

'We all suffer as a result but if it pushes their ideology to the fringes, where it always has been and deserves to stay, then it may have been worth it in the long run.'

I hope so but I thought the same thing after Nixon. Even with a horrible 8 years, a fractured platform and one of the worst campaigns in history the GOP still has a 41-45% base to work with....and the large majority of that base gets screwed the most by the GOP policies."




When JTP can actually campaign separately for Mc, offering his opinions on foreign policy, there is a portion of the electorate that is just too stupid to ____(fill in blank with any verb you might like). Probably the best bet is for Dems to focus on education--the more informed the electorate, the more likely they can make better choices

Another Mike said...

There is now a higher statistical standard then there was in 2000. As someone who has worked the decision desk at a major network in 96, 04, 06, and 08 I'm very confident of our calls now.


"Super Duper Tuesday was not a banner day for the Associated Press. At 11:03 pm EST on Tuesday night, the AP declared Hillary Clinton the winner of the Missouri primary. The AP then revesersed itself on calling the state for the New York Senator at 12:32 a.m. Finally, the state was called in favor of Barack Obama at 2:48 a.m."

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/the_state_of_journalism/ap_investigates_wrong_call_in_missouri_76897.asp

BionicLatino said...

I have a cousin(by marriage, not by blood, thank god) who is a Florida McCain worker. He told me that the MSM media's coverage of the "overwhelming" O camp energy proves the point that the democrats HAVE TO work hard to stay in the race. He says that unlike O's camp, the McCain workers don't have to work so hard. As he explains it, most people are Republican by default, so it's not a matter of recruiting supporters, it's simply a matter of doing a headcount and reinforcing the call to arms.
And according to him, this is the case across the country. So the media wars, the higher registration numbers, the millions spent on campaigning, are meaningless. They only prove that O is running on a treadmill. As he puts it; "If this was a truly level playing field, Obama's money, and energy, and organization, and media coverage, and pary would have made this a complete blowout. But obviously, he has to do ten times the work, and one hundred times the begging, all to keep a slim +5 lead against a man that not even his own party is crazy about."

At least, that's what I hear. And it makes me ill.

Paul said...

Eric, as someone from Belgium, I can tell you, it's getting quite the attention here. So, people are aware that there's a new president to be chosen.

Blue_in_CO said...

This is old, but it gets me laughing so hard I cry every time I see it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiQCJXpbKg

:)

Sameet said...

Using Reagan in a dem ad. Very smart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrBKC3nQHYk

eve said...

Vinny said...

"Like another guy said, I think the 8 years of Bush might have been worth it. The solid GOP base is dying off, and if McCain doesn't win this election, the GOP will be in shambles. Plus, if it wasn't for Bush, the Democrats might never have made such substantial legislative gains."

I understand the feeling. I catch myself thinking the same thing from time to time. And then I remember Bush/Cheney caused tens of thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands of deaths. The enormity of how many families have been changed forever due to the loss of someone, loss of home, loss of country, loss of livelihood or loss of a future is beyond what I can even comprehend.

So I don't think that saying it was worth having Bush/Cheney in order to get the Democrats back in office is a reasonable way to look at the past 8 years.

Eric said...

Regarding Pennsylvania,

It was 3.7% bluer than the national popular vote in 2000.

It was 5.0% bluer than the national popular vote in 2004

It is 3.8% bluer than the national poll numbers in 2008


Obama will win the popular vote. McCain can't win Pennsylvania. He has no path without it and he can't win it.

Subterranean said...

bioniclatino -

Absolutely. The American South is a wasteland of superstition, religious hate-mongering, and sheer stupidity.

You have to live here for a decade to even begin to imagine. Even intelligent Southerners are SHOCKINGLY gullible and reactionary.

It's a complete joke that the rest of the country has to put up with us, really.

Jaime said...

bioniclatino - more people in the country are Democrats or Democratic-leaning than Republican or Republican-leaning, so your cousin is wrong.

Anyway, what I want to know is why Obama suddenly seems to be surging in Ohio, of all places (while the rest of his battleground numbers are high, they've been high for over a month now). Especially with his national tracking numbers going down, does anyone have any theories?

fred said...

You will get the calls right on the HD Net coverage, right Nate?

Congrats again on working with Dan Rather on election night....

bryen193 said...

"He told me that the MSM media's coverage of the "overwhelming" O camp energy proves the point that the democrats HAVE TO work hard to stay in the race. He says that unlike O's camp, the McCain workers don't have to work so hard."

Only one of the two camps is trying to elect a half-black guy named Barack Hussein Obama in a national election.

Bob X said...

john posted: "My reasoning was this: with another 4 years of Bushian ineptitude, the country and perhaps the world would eventually become so fed up that wide-sweeping change, whether in the form of politics or, in the extreme, revolution, would come around before it was all said and done.

1. Is this an irresponsible rationale for casting a vote?"

Very. Some Communists in Germany, under the slogan "The worse the better!" (the system must collapse before the revolution can come), urged a vote for Hitler in 1932 on that grounds. The results were not as terrible for us as for those Germans, but it was an irresponsible playing-with-fire.

Eric said...

So, rest of world, non-americans, I got a question. Do you look at our country and say, they picked a bad leader (George W. Bush), but it's not a big reflection on them? They can get back on course pretty easily. ie, it's a Bush/Cheney thing, not an American thing.

LAT said...

Bionic--that is pure delusion.The reps have to do nothing? really? yes that is exactly how Bush won last time/ doing nothing. Tell that to Rove who had a kick ass GOTV operation.

Jerry056 said...

@jaime

My guess would be Samuel (JOE) the (not licensed) Plumber. Obama's surge in OH has pretty much coincided with JTP's 15 seconds of fame.

Matthew H said...

Jaime: Because they've made a lot of visits to it, recently. Obama made his 'closing speech' in Canton.

In addition, the early voting is heavily pro-Obama, and most polls factor that in.

Subbint!

Andy JS said...

It was a massive mistake for all the other networks to declare Bush the winner just because Fox News did.

I can't understand why what Fox News did that night was so important to tall the other networks. They should have been thinking for themselves, not just copying Fox News.

Juris said...

Let's keep in mind that the electoral vote math will probably dominate in the "calls" of the outcome.

If Indiana goes for Obama -- based on early poll closing there -- basically it will be almost impossible for McCain to win. If VA -- Obama's firewall, as Nate described it -- goes for Obama, it's game over -- absent massive vote counting fraud or suppression elsewhere.

FL is "interesting" in this election but its impact on the EV outcome is likely to be asymmetric: McCain needs it absolutely, Obama does not.

fred said...

The negative route of McCain/Palin could well be making the red states redder, but not the blue or purple states.

Time will tell, and we may not know until election night as most of the polling from here in will be in states less than 10 points apart.

PorridgeGun said...

Election Night 2000

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SprsUaX5j78

RWD said...

One thing I found appalling from that 2000 write up is that CNN was somehow unaware that Florida is split over two time zones. To me, that is as baffling as Hillary's team not understanding the delegate allocation for the California primary.

AnnWC said...

@Ben
VNS does not exist anymore and was replaced with EMR/NEP. The systems are different, and the models are more robust. Also, the process for calling races has changed somewhat. There is now a higher statistical standard then there was in 2000. As someone who has worked the decision desk at a major network in 96, 04, 06, and 08 I'm very confident of our calls now.

Ben, it's exciting to have you here. Can you say more.

livemild said...

is anyone else getting physically sick from this election?
headaches, acne (i am too old but getting them anyway) stomache aches, loss of appetite? i think it is even making me dizzy. im serious. this has got to end soon.
i spend WAY TOO much time looking for GOOD news on the internet about the election.

Josh said...

Bionic - that is pure BS. The opposite is true. The Republicans have to suppress the vote to have a chance.

MysticLaker said...

51-42 + 1 O
51-44 NC
49-46 - 1 M

Pat Andriola said...

Nevada

O 50
M 46

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/nevada/election_2008_nevada_presidential_election

MysticLaker said...

that's gallup.

slicknickshady said...

That's a little better gallup.

MysticLaker said...

sorry rv is correct but
51-42 +1 O -1 M

Jerry056 said...

@mysticlaker

Whew I was thinking Gallup would tighten today

(breathes sigh of relief until the next poll anyway lol)

Dead Cat Bounce said...

Bioniclatino, one thing your cousin is completely misunderstanding: GOTV has nothing whatsoever to do with poll numbers. The effects show up only on election day.

cora said...

why national trackers show tightening ?

Because 20% already voted and heavily towards obama.

Polls are now reflecting the "residual" voters.

Pollsters say it isn't so. But I would like to aske them ? Isn't someone who has already voted less likely to anwer a pollster ?

LAT said...

oh I guess that means Drudge won't be in love with Gallup anymore....

That ad with Reagan is genius. It was made by the guy who made the initial are you better Reagan ad.

Charlie said...

Eric - Lots of different opinions overseas just as there are in America. But my personal, underinformed view: 2000 was a very close and very unfortunate election, 2004 was a total Democratic party screw up. I mean, seriously, how the hell did Kerry lose when you'd already had four mediocre years of Bush? Eight wasted years really - not really creative destruction as some will say, just crap governance and crap global leadership.

Jaime said...

Oh, Gallup. Always the contrarian. Seriously, every time the Rasmussen polls tighten, Gallup widens, and vice versa.

Bob X said...

Jaime asks: "Anyway, what I want to know is why Obama suddenly seems to be surging in Ohio, of all places"
Joe the Plumber is particularly unpopular there; Ohioans think he makes them all look like doofuses.

Real Joe said...

gallup polls not bad for obama

Research-China.Org said...

While I am optimistic that the race will be over by 12 am November 4th, I am very, very concerned with the stories of electronic voting machine fraud coming out of West Virginia and other places. Here is actual video showing "faulty" voting machines malfunctioning for McCain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/west-virginia-vote-flippi_n_138729.html

Please pay very close attention to your vote next week. Audit each vote you cast to make
sure it is recorded properly. Many advocate taking video of your electronic machine in
order to allow you to audit it later. If your voting machine does not print out a paper
trail, request to vote by paper ballot.

Do not let anyone prevent your voice from being heard.

Jerry056 said...

Love that 51 for Obama in both the RV and LV (non traditional)

O 50+ = WIN

MysticLaker said...

I can't emphasize enough how important I think the RV numbers are now that we are seeing. If the GOTV effort is effective that is a HUGE indicator of how great the campaign will be.

Dead Cat Bounce said...

And Ras will widen again tomorrow. As Nate's been saying, this is just noise.

PA John said...

GALLUP:

RV
O -51 (+1)
M -42 (-1)

LVE
O -51
M -44
(No change)

LVT

O 49
M 46 (-1)

Basically, Obama had a fairly good night in this poll last night, since a good night dropped off.

Everyone can stop obsessing about the Rasmussen number now.

Subterranean said...

Also, I'm still convinced that McCain took the PA strategy out of pure laziness. Thinking about defending in several states ALL AT ONCE made his head spin.

PA he could win in a +5M popular vote landslide, but not before that.

sfergus483 said...

Gallup

RV 51-42 + 1 O
LV - Ex 51-44 NC
LV - Trad 49-46 - 1 M

Eric said...

Pat Andriola said...
Nevada

O 50
M 46

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/

This polls is one of three Nevada polls released in the last 24 hours.

The other 2 are:

AP/GFK
Nevada

Obama 52
McCain 40

and

Suffolk
Nevada

Obama 50
McCain 40

OTF said...

Pat,

NV is from yesterday.

Today Rasputin state polls scheduled are:

AK,MI,MN,NM

RWD said...

"Many advocate taking video of your electronic machine in
order to allow you to audit it later."

In Kansas, signs say that videotaping equipment and cameras are not permitted in the polling place.

Andy JS said...

What I can't understand is why states have to be called before any real votes have been counted.

Why not wait a little longer until most of the real votes have been counted before calling a state?

MATT J. H. said...

BionicLatino said...

I have a cousin(by marriage, not by blood, thank god) who is a Florida McCain worker. He told me that the MSM media's coverage of the "overwhelming" O camp energy proves the point that the democrats HAVE TO work hard to stay in the race. He says that unlike O's camp, the McCain workers don't have to work so hard. As he explains it, most people are Republican by default, so it's not a matter of recruiting supporters, it's simply a matter of doing a headcount and reinforcing the call to arms.
And according to him, this is the case across the country. So the media wars, the higher registration numbers, the millions spent on campaigning, are meaningless. They only prove that O is running on a treadmill. As he puts it; "If this was a truly level playing field, Obama's money, and energy, and organization, and media coverage, and pary would have made this a complete blowout. But obviously, he has to do ten times the work, and one hundred times the begging, all to keep a slim +5 lead against a man that not even his own party is crazy about."


Well, thats the biggest pile of shit I have ever heard. I have news for Bianac's cuisine, while we are "Working our asses off" to win Florida, we'll take VA and CO with ease thankyou very much.

President Obama.
Get used to it.

newsinOH said...

The honest, hard-working people of Ohio despise JTP, and we've been OD'd with him. The fools who grab gimmicks LOVE him and those handful are responsible for torturing the rest of us.

I just got a call from an elderly relative screaming that she just heard about JTP conducting Mc rallies in Ohio. "He's not even a plumber, he's a lying, cheating, non-taxpaying stupid asshole. What the hell?????" Yes, that's a nearly perfect direct quote.

The more press he gets here, the angrier many moderate folks get.

Kurt said...

Worst. Thread. ever.

:(

Selva said...

Regarding the comment on RAS numbers at http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9479

A tiny change in the reported weighting from 40% to 39.9% for Dems coupled with rounding errors in the reported crosstabs could change the numbers enough to cause rounding down of Obama's share. Most likely its just rounding error, not anything sinister at RAS.

bryen193 said...

"Joe the Plumber is particularly unpopular there; Ohioans think he makes them all look like doofuses."

There's a hilarious blog post on Huffington to day that equates that precice moment of the McCain campaign "jumping the shark" with Joe the Plumber at the podium taking questions from voters on foreign policy...

Becky Sharp said...

@livemild

I hear you. Just returned from 4 (freezing) days in the No. California wilderness and I feel way better.

Also starting last week I've been listening to music not news when I get ready for work, and on the bus. Helps to maintain sanity

BionicLatino said...

John, this one's for you:

1. Is this an irresponsible rationale for casting a vote?
Not irresponsible, but kind of weak. This is like those students who voted Carrie prom queen simply to see her doused in pig's blood. What I mean is that we must vote as if our vote was the one that tips the scale. Voting Bush in hopes that he be given enough rope to hand himself with is a convoluted plot that assumes several things. The first being that he will actually burn the country so deeply as to make us backlash. The second assumption was that the damage he would do would be reversible. So you took a shot, and it looks like it may be working. But I gotta tell you, I still think it was thin reasoning.

2. While it certainly remains to be seen in a week, did I succeed? Would a Kerry administration have gotten us to where we are now (and hopefully will be)? Or was this only possible because of the past 4years?
I personazlly think that Kerry could have cured cancer, balanced the budget, captured bin Laden, and personally built the first car fueled by breadcrumbs, and the Right would have STILL found a way to label him Worst President EVER. And a lot of people would have drunk that Kool-Aid. And right now, we'd see Cheney-Palin up by 27 points. And more realistically, I think Kerry was too cautious. I honestly believe he would have been so careful as to a point of inactivity. He may have cut a program here and there, or had a moment or two of leadership, but I don't think Kerry was dynamic enough to be a transformational president. So I think Obama was a perfect storm. He happened to be the right person, in the right party, at precisely the right time. But if you read my post above, even so, he may be a field goal short of the Superbowl, ya know?

Aidan MT4 said...

newsinOH said...
"Probably the best bet is for Dems to focus on education--the more informed the electorate, the more likely they can make better choices"

Absolutely right. Not only for the sake of our democracy but for the value and worth of each person, we need a can-do spirit in education, and I'm serious when I say that every state should have high schools and universities that have the resources and expectations of the best prep schools and Ivy League colleges. Is it elitism to want everyone to have those opportunities?

But Obama will be confronted with the continuing ramifications of the Bush economic disaster, which will narrow his options to the width of a keyhole. The infrastructure is crumbling as well(compare any American city with the post-post-modernity of parts of Beijing and Shanghai), and we're still stuck in the no-tax rut where no problems are solved because, glibly, "government is the problem."

Jaime said...

Well, to be fair, the one poll that gives us single-day results -- R2K -- has shown the race pretty consistent over the last three days. O+5, O+6, O+5. So the tightening in the national polls does seem to be real, at least in that one. That being said, I would expect Rasmussen to go up tomorrow in all likelihood, since Obama had such a bad day on Sunday (unless the sudden tightening was really due to a good Obama day dropping off).

Eric said...

Charlie said...
Eric - Lots of different opinions overseas just as there are in America. But my personal, underinformed view: 2000 was a very close and very unfortunate election, 2004 was a total Democratic party screw up. I mean, seriously, how the hell did Kerry lose when you'd already had four mediocre years of Bush? Eight wasted years really - not really creative destruction as some will say, just crap governance and crap global leadership.


This is my view as well. The Democratic Party had some positives come out of 2004. As described earlier, perhaps this country needed 4 more years of bush to hit rock bottom. Sab, but true. Kerry was a weak candidate. Northeast Libs never gain traction here. It just is what it is, the Kennedys, or at least john the ultra-charismatic exception. Obama shows up at the Dem. convention and knocks everyone's socks off. I knew right there at that moment, he was going to win this election 4 years later. Howard Dean showed a path to galvanize the party in those primaries. He wasn't the man for the job, but he enlightened many as to what path to go down. Obama follows that path 4 years later and here we are. I'm hoping for 40 years of government dominated by Democrats. It's a definite possibility.

Real Joe said...

CNN-TIME polls coming out

Dave-london said...

Eric,

Brits are generally on board with the Bush=incompetant, I personally think its a bit more complicated but anyways.

we have a very clear view that we need a positive american involvement to sort out climate change, economy and Iraq/Afghanistan and Israel-Palestine and then also terrorism [though we have had terrorism for 35 years so we are a bit bit less jumpy]. For me add World poverty

there is a strong sense amongst a minority [despair in the majority] that the US represents the most powerful force for good in the world if targeted properly.

And some people want to fight the cultural issues across any boundary [not me, what you do with roe vs wade is your bag]

Wish you'd listen to us more since, the value of a honest friend should not be forgotten and we did this when we ruled the world, manifold destiny etc.

Blair was a very good PM but whisper it quietly, its a controversial thing to say at the moment, he is hated on the right because they felt they owned gvmt at the time and he was 3-0 in elections and on the left because he was seen as to far to the right [thats jsut rubbish but never mind].

Iraq didnt bring him down but once it happended it was never qute the same again. The anaology is The falklands didnt win Thatcher the 1983 election but once it happended her popularity never wavered [it was Bush like in early 82].

And you have some political geeks like me...[its so like 1997 in the uk its unreal]

BO should tonight say JM was a war hero, JM was a great servant of his country in the senate, JM was a great presedential candidate in 2000. JM today isnt that JM.

badgehair is an eternal optimist, given he is on this site I would have thought he was a labour party staffer, must not have been working in 1992, tightenting, became too tight, became loss over around a week.

since all views should have context:
[I am a swing voter in the uk with a very slight Labour lean]
[my preference Gore 00, Bush 04, now isnt hard to guess]

Real Joe said...

any other state or national polls coming out today ?

Listen to my Hype said...

I live in Orlando and was one of those people that did NOT vote at all like an idiot. I believe(d) all politicians were exactly the same and who cares, and what does it matter, and everyone knows Gore so he should be good to go. Same with Bush/Kerry.
My friend tells me how devastated she was when both lost..I understand that now.

I am Sorry.

Never,ever again. I am voting this year for the first time and I think the millions and millions like me agree with "never, ever again".

SHERWICK said...

Next week, the GOP Party of Hate is OVERRRRRRR!!!!!

B Hussein Obama said...

we need a forum instead of just posting comments.

OTF said...

CNN/TIME polls in what states?

tony said...

@ Eric

"You Brits out there, I know there are a lot on the site, are you generally enthusisastic about Obama?"

This Brit has been glued to this site for the last two months, and has waited thirty years for the neo-cons and the Reagonomics snake-oil salesmen to get their come-uppance.

If Obama could count on Brit votes he'd have a landslide.

Ditto France (where I now live). Here It's Obama 94%, yes ninety-four.

Vinny said...

If only Gore had been elected in 2000...*sigh*

newsinOH said...

charlie,

All I can say is whenever I visited the UK or the continent post 2004, I made sure I had anti-Bush buttons clearly visible. I didn't want one single person to assume I was one of the fools who voted for Bush.

Now, do I think Kerry could have fixed things? No, not a chance. The Reps controlled Congress and the war was already screwed 15 ways from Sunday. There would have been serious gridlock with a pretty ineffective Presidency. Bush declaring "a mandate" was step 1 to cleaning out Congress a bit in 2006.

For whatever reason people voted for Bush back in 2004 (be it anti-gay, anti-choice, ongoing war don't change the chief, i've always been a repub, whatever), he managed to expand his reach of disaster to touch just about everything and finally managed to fracture his party with the reasonable folks left out of the GOP.

Rumor has it there will be a big GOP policy conference right after the election. In reading more about it, it seems that it's the pro-Palin group that's pushing to control the future of the GOP. Good luck with that . . .

Roderick said...

B Hussein Obama said...
we need a forum instead of just posting comments.


^ come over to ...

http://pollwatcher.forumcircle.com

Heather Nordquist said...

@real joe
Ras has a bunch out at 3PM ET

AK,MN,NM,AR

Jeff NYC Dem said...

Vinny, As great as that might have been. I think Obama might be the most transformational figure we've had run in decades, this may not have been possible had Gore been elected. Look forward my friend. There is light at the end of this dark tunnel.

pi09 said...

CNN just issued a statement stating NO to Obama's request for the 30 minute slot tonight. They say they would not like to disrupt their regular programming. Is this the Lou Dobbs' slot? They might make more on the Viagra, Levitra, Flomax going and going ads.
And why would the Obama Camp not able to determine whether CNN would say no by just floating an attempt so it would not be seen as a snub by this supposedly highly regarded cable network?

Vinny said...

For anyone who is worried about PA:

Kerry +1
Kerry +4
Bush +4
Tie
Kerry +2
Kerry +2
Average = Kerry +1

^^ The final Pennsylvania polls taken in 04. And Kerry STILL won. And I'm damn sure Pennsyltucky liked Bush a lot more than they liked McCain.

Becky Sharp said...

Why does Rasmussen waste money on polling AK?

Real Joe said...

otf said...
CNN/TIME polls in what states?


no info on that

OTF said...

Huge Early voting continues:

GA
1,387,145 voted
-still holding at 35% AA
-42% of total 2004 votes cast already
-early vote more than 100% from2004

NC
1,627,792 voted
-still holding at 28% AA
-46% of total 2004 votes cast already
-early vote up 50% from 2004

Bex of Ambridge said...

@Eric:

Another Brit here, bit far down now but I do love to respond to the threads where we are asked!

Agree with Charlie re: Brits adore Obama - although quite a few friends have said that we can't quite understand what a big deal it would be if a black guy were elected, and that may be true.

I do think that almost every Brit I know was truly astonished by the news that began to come out about Palin. Most of her appeal is based on issues that would never cross a Brit's mind, let alone sway their vote (guns, abortion, religion) so her popularity is absolutely mindblowing to most people I know.

As for what we think about you guys electing Bush... Well I've always been a big Statesaphile (or whatever the real word is) but I have noticed that since Bush's election people are just generally more and more casually dismissive of America and Americans. Most people I know don't particularly discriminate against who voted/didn't vote, there is a tendency just to think of the US as the country that voted Bush as President. Sorry but it's true.

Hopefully it will work the other way around and we'll all love you if (when?!) BHO gets in.

Christopher said...

I'm thinking that Obama doesn't have much of a foothold in the blame-everyone-else xenophobe demographic, so let those guys watch their Lou Dobbs. I'm just so curious as to what the content of the 30 minutes will be. With the top-notch video team at Obama Inc, I'd expect a cool video and then some live time. Maybe a rally?

hermance said...

Look, I’m a big Obama supporter, but I am absolutely mystified by the comments about 8 years of Bush bringing us to an eventual deliverance—that it was somehow “worth it” to get us “where we are now.” Um, no offense, but where exactly do you think we are now? Well, we’re stuck with a HUGE deficit and in two wars, and once again a Democratic president has to come clean up the mess. And most likely, that president will have to sacrifice core Democratic values to clean up some of those messes (hello, Bill Clinton!). How hamstrung is Obama going to be given the current mess, do you think? If he expands government and doesn’t bring the deficit down, he likely won’t win re-election. If he decides to work to bring the deficit down, then he will have to sacrifice most of his important policy initiatives.

If any of you think the right-wing has disbanded or is weakened, I’d suggest you turn on the tv or open a newspaper and read a letter to the editors section. As others on this thread have indicated, many people thought the GOP was dead after Nixon, and it didn’t take them long to usher in their “hero” Reagan. Americans have not come to see the bankruptcy of the Republican policies, which is why McCain is somehow convincing a good portion of the electorate that giving themselves a tax break is a BAD thing and giving the wealthiest a tax break is a GOOD thing—this after 8 years of the exact same policy, an economy in the toilet, and a $700 billion bailout, which is somehow getting tagged onto Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank.

So, to answer your questions: No, Bush was not “worth” it.

Matt said...

re: Ras and Alaska polling - My guess is that he is more interested in the Senate race, following Stevens' conviction - and is just polling the Presidential horse race as well.

newsinOH said...

tony,

where in France? Been there more times than I can count . . .

pi09 said...

Just want to see if they would feature the tale of the three Ashleys.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Hannity's America/Limbaugh's Trailer LV National Poll


McHero/God's Gift to the USA

75%

America Hater/Plagiarist

25%

Time to get back to work people.

GOTV GOTV GOTV

Simeon said...

Can someone refresh my memory about 2000? Was there any network that made an early call of FL for Gore? I ask because I recall being tired and once I saw that FL was going for Gore, I figured he would win, and then I went to bed. After I woke up and turned the TV back on, the nightmare began.

Did this call for Gore actually happen somewhere? Maybe I just misinterpreted something, but it was a traumatic shock the next day, so whatever happened, I was left with the impression that FL was for Gore when I went to bed.

Eric said...

nice try Bill Mcinturff. DumbASS!

PorridgeGun said...

BBC's Greg Palast on Vote Rigging and Suppression Ahead of the 2008 Election

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nb4iOVoW04


BBC investigative journalist Greg Palast travels to New Mexico, Michigan and Colorado to investigate how both Democrats and Republicans are accusing each other of trying to steal the election. Palast also discusses his new comic book Steal Back Your Vote, co-written with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

EXCERPT of the report.

The question is, are the Democrats stuffing the rolls with millions of bogus voters, or are the Republicans blocking millions of genuine voters?


Greg Palast, Investigative reporter with the BBC and author of the books Armed Madhouse, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy and Democracy and Regulation. He has teamed up with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. to investigate this years election. Theyve just released a voting guide comic book called Steal Back Your Vote!

---
You know, a lot of Europeans wonder, why are Americans so crazy? They keep reelecting this guy. Well, the answer is, we dont. You know, they keep stealing these elections. And they stole it in 2000, they stole it in 2004, and theyre all set up to steal it again.

The question is, are the Democrats stuffing the rolls with millions of bogus voters, or are the Republicans blocking millions of genuine voters?

Low-income voters, especially, have been purged from voter rolls under new US law. Republicans claim these purge laws are needed to prevent voter fraud. We caught up with one of the partys top anti-fraud crusaders at a Republican celebration. Lawyer Pat Rogers singled out ACORN, a Democratic Party-linked group.
Its true that several ACORN workers were convicted of making up fake names for the voter rolls, because they were paid for each name they collected. But theres no evidence that any fictional voter actually cast a ballot.

A reporter for the Michigan Messenger wrote that the local Republican chairman told the journalist that his party would challenge residents right at the polling station to stop them from voting if their names are on a foreclosure list. The Republicans now deny this. But the Michigan Messenger sticks by its story. The Republicans wouldnt speak with us, but they deny they are going to use foreclosure lists to challenge voters.

According to a report, Colorado voters are going the way of the buffalo: theyre disappearing. This government report says that nearly one in five voters, 19.4 percent, were taken off the rolls in an unparalleled, massive purge. Democrats accuse Republican Secretary of State Donetta Davidson of orchestrating the purge. But she says local officials have the final say over voter rolls.
She ended up in Washington, when George Bush appointed her head of the United States Elections Assistance Commission, where her job is to tell the rest of the nation how to run unbiased elections. She commissioned a report on election fixing. The report came in like this, but came out like this. It was written by Republican and Democratic experts. They concluded that Republican fears of widespread voter fraud were unfounded.

alvaro said...

Eric wrote "So, rest of world, non-americans, I got a question. Do you look at our country and say, they picked a bad leader (George W. Bush), but it's not a big reflection on them? They can get back on course pretty easily. ie, it's a Bush/Cheney thing, not an American thing."

Man, if you actually elect a young, smart, black guy this time, you'll be back in the world stage as an extraordinary democracy. Or at least you would make it quite difficult to hate the US around here (Peru).

Christopher said...

Bush was perhaps the worst 8 years in this country's history since the Great Depression. Everything, everything, has regressed. I'm not sure there could be much now that would make the Bush years 'worth it'. That said, the election of Barack Obama as President of the United States will be considered a major event in American and World History. I'm thankful to be a part of that. It's a milestone in our journey to a meritocracy -- the first time a minority race has been elected to head a modern democratic nation.

Pierre said...

@Simeon:

I am on in CA and I do remember one of the networks calling FL for Gore at some point relatively early in the night (probably not before 10 Eastern, though) and thinking Gore had done it, as well...

Then, a little while later, it was switched to Bush and I went to bed thinking the national nightmare was going to begin.

I woke up the next morning realizing that there would be a wrenching near-constitutional crisis before our national nightmare would begin, though...

Jimmy Osbourne said...

Someone earlier mentioned Joe the Plumber,As an Ohioan I have to say that Joe the plumber in no way shape or form speaks for the state. I know many people who are quite embarrassed that this idiot has been elevated to working-class hero status by the McCain camp. The local Democratic headquarters is buzzing with activity and the Republican one seems quiet in comparison...and I live in a red county! Obama looks on track to win my state. :)

akoolromeo said...

Chuck Todd this morning said in the early voting in Florida the young voters are under performing. Yikes. I hope that the young voters are just waiting for election day to come out, but as mentioned before, my biggest fear is that yet again, they will not show up at the polls. The way Obama has inspired them to atttend his rallies and get behind them, if they don't show this time, I don't think a politiican will ever waste their time and money on them again.
Maybe we should send those young people who don't appreciate what our servicemen have done to protect their rights, including the right to vote, to the front lines of Iraq. Maybe then they would be motivated to vote next time. ha J/K about sending them to Iraq. I don't know what it's going to take to get them to the polls. Hopefully, they are procasinating.

AnnWC said...

@Eric
I knew right there at that moment, he was going to win this election 4 years later.

I didn't know he'd win, but I knew at that moment that I wanted him to!

Thomas said...

According to the Document that is linked in the OP, several networks called it early for Gore based on the data they had. (Including an erroneous report of Gore winning 98% of Duval county).

Eric said...

Bex of Ambridge said...
@Eric:

Another Brit here, bit far down now but I do love to respond to the threads where we are asked!

Agree with Charlie re: Brits adore Obama - although quite a few friends have said that we can't quite understand what a big deal it would be if a black guy were elected, and that may be true.

I do think that almost every Brit I know was truly astonished by the news that began to come out about Palin. Most of her appeal is based on issues that would never cross a Brit's mind, let alone sway their vote (guns, abortion, religion) so her popularity is absolutely mindblowing to most people I know.


Gosh, maybe I'm British and just don't know it. just kidding, I'm 100% in line with your thoughts, including the whole Americans just might be dumbasses bit, but could be redeemed.

With regard to electing a black man President, you have to remember our legacy of slavery and Jim Crow laws. Obama is not a descendent of any slaves, but Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, etc. struggles were not that long ago.

D said...

Is Rasmussen cooking his tracker to make McCain look better?

It looks like he did some funny rounding today to get his numbers.

Josh said...

Obama gains 2 points in new Gallup poll. Ahhh... Nice to see some good news in the daily trackers FINALLY.

Bilbo Hussein Baggins said...

RCP moves Nevada from Toss Up to Lean Obama.


misim? you bet I do!

akoolromeo said...

Maybe the Stevens conviction will give Obama a little bump. It might refresh some voter's memories of the scandals of 2006, which led to the Republicans being thrown out of Congress.

Barack Obama said...

Good article: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wrXQaVQC7qA/SNPwUZl8QiI/AAAAAAAAAGw/YjYinwYJweI/s400/obama_01.jpg

newsinOH said...

THIS is the only positive in Bush's legacy:

" A brand-new NBC/WSJ/MySpace poll illustrates not only McCain’s challenge come Election Day, but also the challenge the Republican Party could face in future elections. In the poll, Obama enjoys a more than 2-to-1 advantage over McCain among first-time (read: 18-21 year olds) and lapsed voters, 69%-27%. These voters have a much more positive view of Obama (64%-27% fav/unfav rating) than average voters do (56%-33% fav/unfav in last week’s NBC/WSJ survey). What’s more, they have a much more negative view of McCain (29%-59%) and Palin (23%-54%) than average voters do.

A very ominous sign for the Republican Party is how Democratic-leaning these new and lapsed voters are. Not only do they back Obama by a 69%-27 margin, they also prefer a Democratic-controlled Congress by a 2-to-1 margin, 66%-31%. And their views of President Bush? His fav/unfav among these voters is 14%-73%. Ouch. While Karl Rove had ambitious hopes of turning Bush's presidency into a permanent majority for the GOP, this poll suggests that Bush's lasting legacy could actually be turning off a new generation of voters. After all, consider what young voters who came of voting age during the past seven years might associate the GOP with -- the Iraq war, Hurricane Katrina, the current economy, various political scandals (Jack Abramoff, Ted Stevens, etc.), and Bush."

Thomas said...

The Florida early voting numbers I think include both early voting and absentee.

I would assume that the absentee is mostly NOT young people (since its is heavily Republican).

That would explain an apparent under performance by young people, who might be showing up in the in person early voting in large numbers, but that is balanced by absentee.

imadis said...

pollster.com now has GEORGIA as a TOSS-UP.

Check it out. . . .WOW

*prolles*

pi09 said...

White House preparing for transition to the next administration: (news) Why is the democratic campaign allowing Mickey Kantor to talk about an Obama administration with Andrea Mitchell, as if it is already a done deal. Could there be a backlash on this. A bait and switch job by the White House?

PorridgeGun said...

More Greg Palast Investigative Reporting:


BBC Newsnight 2000 Elections Report - Where it all started

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ClTxaY8Uy5U&feature=channel



BBC Newsnight - US Election Report (October 2004)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IkvWkwv7UVo&feature=channel

PeteKent said...

More in Sorrow than in Anger

"we've consistently shown less enthusiasm and engagement among Republicans than is typical, and the composition of the electorate shows that." (WaPo, quoting PEW Poll)

It is our grim duty to turn back the Manchurian candidate. We do this more in sorrow than in anger, but make no mistake: We recognize the gravity of the task and will be more than up to it.

bryen193 said...

LOL @ the "McCain Surge"

Every state or national poll that's come out so far today has Obama winning. 21 so far per RCP listings. There's probably more.

www.democratz.org said...

The stolen election got called by the Supreme Court on my 50th birthday on Dec 12, 2000.

Weeks later I designed this and sold a good number of them. Now I have put them on mugs and shirts.


http://www.hoflink.com/~dbaer/bush_gold_coin2x.jpg







Please answer a poll on universal health care at http://poll.democratz.org



You can watch Countdown with Keith Olbermann at
http://liberal.democratz.org



You can watch The Young Turks Liberal talk show after you watch Countdown by clicking on the link that reads Watch the Young Turks, near the top of the page.


RWD said...

"Can someone refresh my memory about 2000?"

Perhaps you should try clicking on the link in Nate's post. It takes you to the full post-disaster report about CNN and goes through it all in detail.

flygeak?

imadis said...

"PeteKent said...
More in Sorrow than in Anger

"we've consistently shown less enthusiasm and engagement among Republicans than is typical, and the composition of the electorate shows that." (WaPo, quoting PEW Poll)

It is our grim duty to turn back the Manchurian candidate. We do this more in sorrow than in anger, but make no mistake: We recognize the gravity of the task and will be more than up to it."



Um, Pete Kent, the Manchurian Candidate was about an individual who was brain-washed while being held as a POW in Vietnam.

You may want to check you analogies before using them.

*giero*

Ran said...

I was a volunteer with the Gore campaign in Orlando in 2000. We were housed behind some self-storage units in a part of town where I didn't feel comfortable going by myself to my car after dark. Yard signs were stolen en masse as fast as we could put them up, and on Election Day, people were waiting four and five hours to get rides to the polls. I'm sure they did the best they could with what they had, but it didn't inspire confidence or enthusiasm.

Compare that to this year, with the organization and motivation we see coming from the ground crew in Florida (and elsewhere!) and I have hope that the outcome will be very different in 2008.

PorridgeGun said...

How the elections in Florida 2000 were stolen from Al Gore

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8gcJOhCHWRQ

SHERWICK said...

Dec 12, 2000 - one of the worst days in American history, and will be judged as such in the decades and centuries to come.
Never to be forgotten or forgiven.

Barack Obama said...

LOL you guys seen this one yet!?

http://www.holytaco.com/2008/09/29/sarah-palins-facebook-page/

jnorthrop said...

@ imadis said...

"pollster.com now has GEORGIA as a TOSS-UP. Check it out. . . .WOW"

Wow, indeed! And MS is just leaning McCain.

Hopeful in NJ said...

I don't understand the claims this could never happen again. Missouri was called incorrectly in the primary just last February.

Anyway, someone above mentions they remember an early call for Gore on Florida -- that is correct it did happen.

Kurt said...

SHERWICK said...

Dec 12, 2000 - one of the worst days in American history, and will be judged as such in the decades and centuries to come.
Never to be forgotten or forgiven.


If only. I honestly think most people didn't even notice.

OTF said...

thomas,

FL early numbers 2,590,640 voted include both absentee and in person. So far 45% absentee amd 55%in person. Absentee traditionally favor Repubs as the requested many more absentees this year. But ems are doing well in turnout for in person. Initial numbers showed dem and repub equal as % now dems up 6% in turnout by party. They are increasing early vote hrs to 12hrs b/c of the long lines and alot of them are in dem heavy areas.

Scott said...

BionicLatino said...

"He told me that the MSM media's coverage of the "overwhelming" O camp energy proves the point that the democrats HAVE TO work hard to stay in the race...(snip)...the McCain workers don't have to work so hard...(snip) most people are Republican by default"

I do NOT want whatever your "cousin" is smoking. This is unmitigated horse-sh*t of the worst kind.

As the "On the Road" segments on this blog have amply and pretty much continuously demonstrated, it's more a matter of Obama enthusiasm and McCain torpor.

The republican party is headed for an extended stay in the wilderness. And OMG, Sarah Palin is going to be their leader, so look for them to be politically relevant again in maybe 2 or 3 decades.

Simeon said...

@thomas

Yeah, I guess I should check the links first. ;-) You're right, it does show that it was called first for Gore, as I had remembered.

Listen to my Hype said...

I haven't voted yet (FL) but I am no longer a "young voter" =(. I drove by yesterday on a whim to vote and the line was fantastically very very long and I had to log into work (can't you tell). My husband and I plan on camping out Saturday morning. The worse case scenario is to wait for election day where I can honestly and have, walk to my kid's school which is my set polling location if something weird happens to my car, traffic, whatever. Don't count us out yet, but I sure hope he doesn't need us =(.

PA John said...

Daily Reality Check:

PA Polls released today:

Marist:
Obama 55-41 (+13)

Quinnipiac:
Obama 53-41 (+12)

AP/GfK:
Obama 52-40 (+12)

Franklin & Marsahll:
Obama 53-40 (+13)

Muhlenberg/Morning Call Daily:
Obama 53-42 (+11)

jnorthrop said...

You guys keep harping on FL 2000 where it really was just a toss-up at the end. It fell within the margin or error. If you want to lament 2000 take a look at NH where Gore lost to Bush by only a narrow margin. If you take Nader out of that state Gore wins and wins the election.

Nader was the lesson of 2000 for me. Not Florida.

*loghos*

PeteKent said...

Out of the Woodwork

Awesome account of Election Night 2000. We went from exhilaration to bewilderment in a few short hours.

I suppose when they call Maine for McCain next Tuesday you'll be hoping for a recount there!

Mark me: People will come out of the Woods to vote against Obama.

The Maverick and the Frontierswoman will lead them to it.

McCain - Palin '08

bryen193 said...

"It is our grim duty to turn back the Manchurian candidate."

It's amusing to observe the republicans' descent into bizarre rages and outlandishly manufactured dramatic rhetorical flourishes as they realize the election is slipping away. Some of the elected ones, such as Bachnmann and Hayes, are even tossing their own careers in the process.

jwgresham said...

Read the story in the New york Times today about the voting in Duval County in 2000. The exit polls were based on the voters not on the votes counted.

bobnsj said...

New Thread

Kurt said...

PA John said...

Daily Reality Check:

PA Polls released today:

Marist:
Obama 55-41 (+13)

Quinnipiac:
Obama 53-41 (+12)

AP/GfK:
Obama 52-40 (+12)

Franklin & Marsahll:
Obama 53-40 (+13)

Muhlenberg/Morning Call Daily:
Obama 53-42 (+11)


:hug:


McCain SUUUUUUUUUUURGE

Eric said...

D said...
Is Rasmussen cooking his tracker to make McCain look better?

It looks like he did some funny rounding today to get his numbers.


I believe Rasmussen cooks their numbers for sure. They are the only pollster that is extremely predictable. His numbers are way too consistent. It's virtually impossible that you'd have the kind of consistency his polls show.

Matt said...

@eric

look even our conservative mayor of london wants obama to win.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/21/do2101.xml

Do we want obama? You betcha!

I think people from every country on the planet will be weeping on Nov 5th. Lets hope its with joy.

Obama will be constrained in what he can do because of many practicalities. But to have someone of his intellect, temperament and yes unashamedly who is not white, as the president of the USA..

..god yes we want Obama to win!

PeteKent said...

Washington, Oregon, Wisconsin and Minnesota will also fall for McCain.

It's in the trees!

Paul said...

I want to say, not that anyone will get this far down on the comments section, that as another Brit now living in the US, I think the important issue here is the insanity of these "decision committees" or whatever their called, making judgments about elections before all the voters are counted.

I grew up watching the BBC pan out to various town halls across the country for an official statement by the returning officer with final totals - everything they discussed before that was just guesswork and rumour. If you wanted to know the result first you stayed up all night watching the OFFICIAL results come.

I know we are talking about a bigger electorate but surely enough volunteers could be found to count these votes and officially and privately pass all the info along to the head of the board of elections for the state who'd appear on TV by about 3am and announce a result. It would be so much more transparent if we could see an official stake their reputation on a count they'd compiled in a public office rather than have Wolf Blitzer "call" the result like its an answer on family feud -
"Our survey says... wait for after the commercial break... we're back.... and with polls closed this hour in Ohio... we're kinda guessing that candidate X won!"

PeteKunt said...

The states with forests will determine the election! Maine, Oregon, Washington, Colorado and Pennsylvania (translated it means "Penns Woods!") will vote for the woman of the forest! She has a natural bond! Oh my look at the polls!

Mark me: People will come out of the Woods to vote against Obama!

The Maverick and the Frontierswoman will lead them to it.

hermance said...

“Man, if you actually elect a young, smart, black guy this time, you'll be back in the world stage as an extraordinary democracy.”

This stuff really frustrates me. I understand why people would follow the US election because the US has tried to stick its nose into all of the world’s business and seemingly ruin as much of it as possible for, what, at least the past 50 years, putting its own agenda over just about everybody else’s.

However, I am really sick of hearing how the world would vote for Obama. Though I realize that most international folks are *incalculably* more educated about US politics than almost any US citizen is about any other country, there is still a lot that you can’t understand about US politics without living under it. For example, we do have this Constitution, and most people kind of like it. But it’s got difficult stuff, like this pesky Second Amendment clause that, frankly, most Western Europeans really can’t relate to. I would imagine that from a European perspective it should just be as easy as “Why have guns?” But changing the Constitution is a big deal, even to me, and I hate the Second Amendment. Similarly, universal health care seems like a very good if not essential idea, but it will be incredibly hard to implement. And honestly, it will likely be quite painful to implement. And Obama will almost certainly not be the president to do it. So, I think if I didn’t live here, I would be of the mindset as well: “Why don’t they have universal health care? They should vote the black guy in and let him do good for the poor.”

This is akin to me sitting over here and saying “Why don’t you Brits just keep voting Labour? Their ideas are *so right.*” But of course, ideas don’t govern. People do. Europeans loved Bill Clinton, too. But over here, we had to deal with him selling out welfare and getting caught with his pants down so that Newt Gingrich could usher in the Contract with America. Should Americans not care so much about infidelity? Probably. But they do. And Clinton should have kept it in check, rather than letting the moral majority have their way because of his randyness. My point is: he was another incredibly smart guy who was on the “good” side of a lot of ideas, but it’s not as easy as just having good ideas.

Finally, I think Obama is a great candidate. But I certainly don’t think his rise proves jack about a meritocracy here. This is like Aussie’s post earlier saying that Americans are now “questioning authority.” Hardly. Obama has had to do a lot to make himself seem as mainstream as possible, and though I think he is a much better candidate than Kerry and likely to be as good of a president (if not better) than Clinton, I think if you are expecting a new day of progressivism rising in the US, then you have another thing coming. Don’t get me wrong: I’ll take the Clinton years over just about any other years in my lifetime. But I think the notion that this is some sea change says more about the low expectations for the US than it says about the reality of where we might go. Nothing will ignite the right wing like a Democratically controlled Washington. Nothing.

The best hope, I honestly believe, is not from Obama’s presidency, but the changing demographics in the US. As our young voters relate less and less to Reagan (our forever albatross) and more Latino voters join the electorate, I do think we have reasons to be hopeful. But this is a slow change, and will likely spur even more racism, xenophobia, and rankling before we move past this dark time.

I'll celebrate like crazy on Inauguration Day, and I'll be really proud of my country. But mostly I'll be glad that what's behind us is behind us. And that we will be starting on a long--but still quite--uncertain road.

goatdan said...

Long time reader, first time poster...

Just wanted to say and maybe get some comments in response to this -- does anyone else see the Republican party fracturing after this for the next election? I've read things that recommend that perhaps the majority of people who identify themselves as Republicans do not agree completely with the overly religious based roots that the party claims, and that social issues such as abortion and gay marriage are only huge issues for the extreme right wing.

With some people starting to point to a Palin bid in 2012, does anyone else feel that the more moderate Republicans might try breaking away from the party to run someone more 'in the middle'? I don't think that in four years, Palin's message of ultra-super-conservative morals will play any better than they do now.

MysticLaker said...

new thread.

Becky Sharp said...

Ok at the risk of being put in the stocks and pelted with rotten eggs....Florida 2000 was never clear cut.

Quite simply: They were recounting in Gore leaning counties and he was gaining on Bush. If they'd recounted in Bush leaning counties the trend MIGHT have been reversed (In fact a subsequent recount of all counties by a consortium of newspapers concluded Bush still wins)

A far bigger scandal is why the electorate were so dumb as to even make the election close. (ditto 2004 and 2008)

jumpin jehosophat said...

"WIDESPREAD TOUCH SCREEN VOTE FLIPPING"
reported; witnessed; videotaped here

Nobody has mentioned this obvious story yet. Comments anybody? Analysis? Arguments?

This is just one place where the videos are being shared:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/26/112912/81/554/642200


(Buzzfeed links too)


_

Becky Sharp said...

Fuckity fuck! Why do I always make a long winded posting just as a new thread arrives!

SP said...

People will come out of the Woods to vote against Obama.

Now, there's an unpolled segment of the American society!

WE ARE DQQMED!!!

PeteKent said...

The World

“Man, if you actually elect a young, smart, black guy this time, you'll be back in the world stage as an extraordinary democracy.”

As noted: What arrogance!

Does “the world" really think this great nation of ours that has yielded power peacefully and repeatedly for over 200 years need to elect Barack Obama to prove our cred?

Let us turn Obama aside and show the world that we will not be browbeaten into electing their choice for us!

Do you really think "the world" has our best interests at heart?

Harry said...

@Eric:

You have to bear in mind that the UK is somewhat to the left of the US politically and vastly less religious, so the Democrat is usually going to be the more popular choice over here. The Republican party platform would basically make them unelectable in Britain, and we're one of the more right-wing countries in Europe.

And when you factor in the huge unpopularity of George Bush and exciting possibility of the first black president, Obama would win the British vote by a landslide.

As to whether we blame the US as whole, or just Bush/Cheney, for the past eight years... well, intellectually, I know that the 2000 election was basically a tie and 2004 was nearly as close, so as many people voted against Bush as voted for him — but inevitably, our perception of America is gradually dragged through the mud.

Eight years ago, the scariest aspect of American politics was the Christian right, and that's quite alien enough from a British perspective; but that was before Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

Electing Obama would do a lot to help us remember what it was we liked about you. Which may not be fair, but it's just the way it is.

tony said...

newsinOH said...

tony,

where in France? Been there more times than I can count . . .



The valley of the Lot, down in the south-west. A beautiful area with a long socialist tradition. Oops - the 'S' word.

hermance said...

"Electing Obama would do a lot to help us remember what it was we liked about you. Which may not be fair, but it's just the way it is."

Let me be clear: I share nothing of PeteKent's view about this.

But I think this view is really just silly. It's not about fairness. It's about incredible amounts of reductivism.

PeteKent said...

O’ Grand Old Party! Whither thou goest?

Goatdan (welcome) wrote: "does anyone else see the Republican party fracturing after this for the next election?”

I do not see the Rep Party fracturing I see in re-aligning.

It will return to its roots of being the Party of aspiration of upward mobility brought about by Private Growth.

It will shed its Wall Street wing. The rich capitalists have become too dependent on government protection and they live in deeply blue states. Let the problems of the financial services industry be left to Governors Corzine and Patterson and Arnold's successor, along with all those Democratic Senators.

The coming recession will hit the financial services industry the hardest and the states that will feel it the worst will be NY, CA, NJ, CT and MA. The Bluest of the Blue! More's the pity!

The millions of lives that are dependent upon the Wall Street teat is now the Democrat's problem. I wish you luck governing and building a coalition with that Albatross around your neck.

Meanwhile, the GOP will emphasize the values of Main Street and Sam's Club, while welcoming the ambitious like Joe the Plumber and Tito the Builder.

We will continue to stand for a traditional kind of morality in opposition to the libertine morals of Hollywood and the Culture of Death of the Democratic Party.

The Republicans represent the best of a proud tradition that stands in awe of American power and sees the nation as a force for good. As McCain puts it: We are not victims of history, we make history! And we make it for the good.

Iraq will ultimately be seen as a tremendous success. Having a base in the heart of the Middle East will help us fight the transcendent evil of our time – radical Islam. The frank recognition of the threat by the Republican Party and its determination to fight it will serve to diminish the Democrats in opposition as the Party of weakness and defeatism. The parallel to the Fall of the Soviet Union is already palpable.

George Will, Peggy Noonan, Colin Powell are dead to us -- Apostates that lacked the capacity to embrace the change within their own party and see the virtue of its traditions and its grounding principles. They have abetted their traditional enemy and have done so for the mess of pottage that is the Obama campaign.

Our new spokesmen are a gal name Sarah and guy name Joe. Our elder Statesmen is none other than Charles Krauthammer, who alone among the polemicists this year spoke with a clarity of vision and understood the stakes and principles involved in this election and held true to them.

We are not a Party in schism; we are a party in resurgence. In a crucible of fire, steel is forged. We are finding our way once more.

McCain – Palin ’08!
McCain – Palin ’12!!!

Richard said...

PeteKent said "Do you really think "the world" has our best interests at heart?"

That's not the problem; the real issue is that the US, for the past eight years, hasn't had the WORLD'S best interests at heart. This by definition includes the best interests of the US, or did you forget for a minute that we all live on the same planet?

On second thought, maybe you DO live on another planet.

Harry said...

"But I think this view is really just silly. It's not about fairness. It's about incredible amounts of reductivism."

Well, yes, obviously.

But I still think there's some truth to it. Opinion surveys around the world have shown that people's image of the US has become substantially more negative over the past few years. I don't think that's a particularly rational assessment — all the things everyone liked about America 8 years ago still apply, after all — it's an emotional one. And like a lot of emotional reactions it is silly and it is reductionist. So, for example, people may know perfectly well that 'American foreign policy' is actually George Bush's (or Dick Cheney's) foreign policy, and that plenty of Americans opposed it from the beginning... and yet it still affects our vision of America.

Bill P. said...

Do you really think "the world" has our best interests at heart?

Um, given that we're talking about Europe, yes. And if you don't believe they benefit by having our best interests at heart, then you are too naive to have this conversation. Talk to us when you grow up, son.