10.04.2008

Dueling Minnesota Polls

I'm hoping to get a full senate polling update out later today, but in the meantime, I've been getting a lot of e-mails about the conflicting results in Minnesota, where SurveyUSA shows Norm Coleman 10 points ahead of Al Franken, but the Minnesota Star Tribune has Franken 9 points ahead of Coleman. (The one thing the polls agree on? Third-party candidate Dean Barkley is a factor).

While SurveyUSA provides plenty of crosstabular detail, there's very little from the Star-Tribune in the way of demographics, making comparison of the polls difficult. The Star-Tribune does, however, provide their party ID split (as does SurveyUSA):

Poll           D     R     I    D +/-
Star-Tribune 42 26 27 +16
SurveyUSA 37 30 21 +7
The Democrats hold a 16-point edge in partisan ID in the Star-Tribune poll, as compared with a 7-point edge in the SurveyUSA poll. In 2004, Democrats had a 3-point party ID edge in Minnesota. Since then, however, Democrats have gained about 8 points in party ID nationwide. If the trend can be extrapolated linearly to Minnesota, that would imply that their edge in the state should be about a +11 -- roughly in between the two surveys.

There's something else weird going on, too. Look at that table above and add the three numbers together. In the Star-Tribune's poll, they add up to 95 percent, which means that 5 percent of voters are "missing". And in the SurveyUSA poll, they add up to 88 percent, which means that 12 percent of voters are "missing".

Those "missing" voters aren't actually missing, of course; they probably identify themselves as part of some sort of third party, or refused to provide their party ID. There may also be some ambiguities related to Minnesotans identifying themselves as part of the Democratic-Farmer-Labor party as opposed to straight Democrats.

So who's right? I'm not sure that I'd trust either of these polls. The Minnesota senate race, most likely, is a toss-up.

467 comments

sleeguy123 said...

Nate, how do you reconcile the Obama results with McCain +1 and then Obama +high single digits and then also the CNN poll t hat has him up double digits?

Minnesota, in the presidential race, isn'ta toss up right?

M. Joseph Goodfriend said...

Barack, please go to Minnesota. Please run up a double-digit victory and coat-tail Al Franken to victory. I will never, never forgive Coleman for riding Paul Wellstone's death into office then stomping his legacy into the ground.

Sergeiy said...

On Pollster.com there was an interesting comment to this poll, which I'm pasting below; I think it gives some good reasons to suspect SurveyUSA's results:

____________________
Tyler:

The only thing that seems a bit fishy about the crosstabs is that, although the age distribution seems fine, the way the age groups split for candidates is kind of bizarre:

18-34 Obama +4
35-49 McCain +16
50-64 Obama +5
65+ Obama +10

Why is Obama winning seniors by a larger margin than young voters, and why is there a sudden 20-25 point difference between 35-49 year olds vs. all other age groups?

I'm not saying this poll isn't legitimate, because I see no reason to say it isn't, but that's really weird.

Posted on October 3, 2008 9:42 AM

____________________
Tyler:

I just went and looked at the previous SUSA result for MN (9/12, O+2), and the age breakdown there was what more you would expect:

18-34 Obama +16
35-49 Even
50-64 McCain +8
65+ Obama +3

So if this poll really represents a shift in the electorate, I'd love to know what has caused Obama to lose about 12-16 points among under-50s while simultaneously gaining 7-13 points among over-50s.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

It's not that much of a mystery -- they're both outliers on different sides of the spectrum, it's just noticed because they came so close together.

We need another poll.

Real Joe said...

MN is blue

STepper said...

Real Joe said...
"MN is blue"

Does that make you blue, too, Real Joe?

B. Tau said...

Neocons are liberals.

Check it.

E.M. said...

I don't think there should be any ambiguity about Democrat v. DFL since its really just a nominal thing. There is no other Democratic party to get the DFL confused with and the terms are used interchangeably by most of us. (DFLer born and raised, btw.)

Mylegacy said...

I for one am delighted that Minnesotans are giving hemorrhoids to all of us who crave certainty.

This election will be won or lost in the hearts and minds of all Americans - as we pause the second before we vote. That second is our only free second - our only second of power - one second every four years.

Minnesota - you just go ahead and drive us nuts.

Blame said...

couchpotato

I agree. Tiebreaker needed. It does look like paty ID split doesn't work too well due to DFL. Party ID probably depends on exactly how you pose the question.

Carlo Graziani said...

The fact that the Obama campaign isn't rushing an emergency response team to shore up MN pretty much tells you what they're seeing in their own internal polls.

evenswr said...

The Star Tribune has a long history of being on the high end for Democrats. Here's a comparison of polls for Bush/Kerry in '04. Note that at any given date, the Star Tribune has the highest +Kerry points around.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/mn_polls.html

Ken Sturgis said...

There also may be ambiguity in the MN senate polls due to the Independence party.

Dean Barkley is not running as an independent he is running as a member of the independence party. If the poll is asked in an ambiguous way people might get confused between not affiliated with a party and the independence party itself.

This confusion seems more likely than the DFL/democrat debate since the DFL party has been around a very long time.

Also MN has no party registration so party membership and identification can be very fickle here.

realistxxx said...

RCP now has Obama with 264 EV's and there are 8 tossup states left.

NV, OH, VA, FL, NC, MO, IN and CO.

Obama is ahead in 6 of these according to them.

Guess what all of these states that get Obama over 270 (except NV which would be 269) have in common.

realistxxx said...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

sperricar said...

Palin tax return 2006, 2007 have been released.
Nothing interesting.

Kid G said...

realistxxx:

They went to Bush last time? What's your point?

Juris said...

Nate: I haven't looked at it but I would guess there's some potentially useful information that could come from the party ID split used in the Big Ten poll in MI. Have you checked that?

Mr. X said...

Ordinarily this would be belaboring the obvious, but the great speculation on the significance of these MN polls means it probably needs belaboring. What a poll's margin of error means is that if it was done properly, reality will fall inside its sample's margin 95% of the time: 19 times out of 20. The corollary of this is that a poll should be inaccurate, i.e. off by more than the margin of error one out of every twenty times, by chance alone. At the moment, dozens of polls are being released on various electoral races every week. Therefore, we should expect to encounter howlingly inaccurate or contradictory surveys on almost every day from here through Novemeber 4th, even amongst the ones that are methodologically okay. It appears that this is what has happened here.

Real Joe said...

stepper said...

Does that make you blue, too, Real Joe?


Ha ha

no

i don't see MN going red

can NY go red ?

i live in the real world

Craig said...

I'm a liberal in MN, and I think the Star Trib polls (Minnesota Poll) have a reputation of having liberal lean of a couple points. Maybe that isn't across the board, but it has been the case in a few high profile near-election polls that were notably off.

Also, Minnesota has a very active Green Party and Independence Party...those could easily throw the weightings off.

And finally I heard a radio report this morning that commented on the polls and said that Obama is going to greatly increase his advertising in MN.

Chris said...

As a Minnesotan, I can testify that Star Tribune has a rather terrible track record. Though, oddly enough, they nailed the 2006 Senate race (even though all the other organizations had the race much closer than it was), they haven't done well with any other contest, always grossly overestimating the Democratic percentage... they had Wetterling over Bachmann by 6 in 2006, Hatch consistently over Bachmann, Kerry with massive leads, etc.

I doubt there are ambiguities involving party identification, unless the pollsters were dumb and didn't understand if the person said "DFL" for their party ID. It'd surprise me if Independence Party identification was as high as 12%; even 5% seems like an overestimate.

lompe said...

The Elon poll from NC:

President: Dem. party: 38,9, Rep. party: 38,8
Senate: Dem. party: 37,0, Rep. party: 34,6

http://www.elon.edu/docs/e-web/elonpoll/100308.pdf

Matthew said...

I predict that the Minnesota senate race will end up almost exactly the same as the Oregon senate race.

Real Joe said...

any more polls coming out today ?

Nate:

you should have a poll schedule on your site

then we know when they are coming out

Real Joe said...

there are lot of liberals in OR who vote for the republican>>>>LOL

realistxxx said...

Kid G said...
realistxxx:

They went to Bush last time? What's your point?

------------

McCain is playing 100% defense according to RCP which is hardly a left leaning site.

In other words they list no Kerry states as tossups.

He needs to defend 7 Bush states not including NV to avoid losing.

Let's say he has a 60% chance on average on winning any one of these states. That's being generous. Treating each win as an independent event (over simplification) gives him a 5% chance of winning all 7.

John said...

Palin is smearing Obama hard today, saying that he sees America as so imperfect that "he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country."

She is as stupid and hateful as all Fox News watching, Rush Limbaugh listening morons.

Hopefully, this will bring her favorability ratings down even further.

Mule Rider said...

It's unfortunate to see that Barack Obama is every bit as big a liar as John McCain is.

Real Joe said...

we are so fu**ed if McCain can't defeat(by a large margin) Obama in the remaining 2 debates

i just can't believe it

the most liberal senator is going to be president if McCain fails to attack

fellow republicans

lets pray for a major gaffe by Obama & a huge victory for McCain in the remaining 2 debates

:-)

newyorker2874999 said...

Now that thanks to the left-brain briliance of Nate, the outcome of this election is pretty clear, maybe even Real Clear, at some point those of us who are truly independent will need for Nate to make some right-brain predictions about how Obama might actually govern.

I say this because, even though a number of the posters on this site are very very smart, as long as they remain in battlefield mode, their statements pro and con about Obama remain too hyper-partisan to be instructive, let alone actionable for an independent approaching the voting booth.

And, candidly, I'd trust Nate's take on Obama's governance a lot more than Obama's, because the senator has always seemed to me to be ever-triangulating, not in the deliberately studied WJC sense, but as an effortless instictive second nature.

At times Barack's words sound like the perfect resolution of the sum of all political vectors acting on him from every direction at any given point in time. Will he do the same as President in order to keep his approval ratings high enough for reelection? Nate, HELP! How do you predict your guy will govern?

Real Joe said...

John McCain ~ Country First ~

John said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Real Joe said...

i want new polls

where the fu** are they ???

Real Joe said...

ha ha

Plain is not perfect but she's making liberals pee in the pants....lol

justin32099 said...

"Palin is smearing Obama hard today, saying that he sees America as so imperfect that "he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country.""

This fits in with everything about her vice presidential candidacy, which is, it appeals strongly to the Republican base, and turns everyone else off.

Her credibility is solidly less than zero at this point.

jakam said...

While I don't believe for a second that McCain is close to Obama in the polls, let alone leading by 1, it certainly wouldn't hurt for Obama to stick his nose in the door up here nevertheless.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

"Plain is not perfect but she's making liberals pee in the pants....lol"

Palin's negative favorability ratings make me pee my pants...from laugher.

markymark said...

What happened in the last 20 years to make Minnesota a toss up state? Its the home of many of the greatest liberal icons in the country (Humphrey, Mondale, Wellstone etc) and yet the GOP has had some good results in that state in the last 10-15 years.

Real Joe said...

30 days to go

everyday they should poll most of the states

jakam said...

The Star Tribune has a long history of being on the high end for Democrats.

The Star Tribune was the one that showed Obama and McCain tied last time, when no other pollster had.

If what you say were true, McCain would have been leading in most other polls.

markymark said...

joe, you know that will lead to more dissapointment for you!

realistxxx said...

Or you could say has less than a 3% chance of just achieving a tie if you include NV.

That is according to RCP and my back of the envelope calculation.

I am not saying that McCain only has a 3% Win/Tie percentage. Because that assumes Obama has a 100% chance of keeping all Kerry states + IA and NM.

However, Rasmussen markets and Intrade give McCain a >30% chance. Nate says it's more than half that.

McCain supporters come on here and claim Nate is cooking the numbers. Now anyone that complains can go to RCP and see that their EV projections and tossup calls show that Nate's calculation is much closer to reality than other "experts".

Kate said...

PPP says that the first round of interviews for their Tuesday Ohio poll is looking more like Quinnipiac than SUSA or Rasmussen. Sounds like they're going to find Obama up in OH by more than a point or two.

jakam said...

RCP now has Obama with 264 EV's and there are 8 tossup states left.

Yep...every state won by either Gore or Kerry is leaning or solid Obama....that's 264 EVs.

Every single one of RCP's tossups is a state that Bush won BOTH times.

Not a good place for McCain to be...

Mule Rider said...

With Democrats expected to hold one of the stongest majorities in Congress in more than a generation and with a liberal neophyte coming into power who is willing to overreach badly to please the chanting, cultish masses, I can tell you exactly how governance will be under Barack Obama.

We will see a whirlwind of progressive and far-reaching liberal legislation that will devastate this country for years to come.

It's over, folks. All over. George Bush fractured the integrity of this country with harmful neo-con foreign policies. Barack Obama will continue the trend and turn us into a socialist, third world backwater behind neo-liberal, uber-progressive policies.

Bet the bank on it. If it hasn't filed for bankruptcy yet!

bryen193 said...

"Palin is smearing Obama hard today, saying that he sees America as so imperfect that "he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country." "

One of the most stunning things about this election is the juxtaposition of media's breathless reaction to Palin (both right and left wing media) - OOOH look at her! She's pretty! She winked! She's Qualified! She's Unqualified! She gaffed! She didn't gaffe! She's a sensation! She's an abomination! - and the mainstream electorate's reaction too her - which is a large yawn. Yet another day of polling after her incredibily overhyped (by both sides) debate confirms she moves no numbers for McCain at all - in fact Obama had his best single day yesterday according to R2000, a +13.

kjvd00 said...

This is the same SurveyUSA who has McCain up by 3 in Minnesota. What a joke their sample is here.

Obama up 8.25 in Tracking Poll Composite



More on the Bailout Fallout

John said...

Today's Morning Call Pennsylvania Tracking Poll:

Obama 51
McCain 39

Obama's lead continues to grow.

Ed M. said...

We will see a whirlwind of progressive and far-reaching liberal legislation that will devastate this country for years to come.

I wish.

P.S. neo-liberal, uber-progressive policies is contradictory. You are probably a neo-liberal and don't realize it.

Matt said...

That PA poll - wow. Steady decline for McCain/Palin with each successive day.

Time to pull out of PA as well?

shadowguidex said...

"At times Barack's words sound like the perfect resolution of the sum of all political vectors acting on him from every direction at any given point in time. Will he do the same as President in order to keep his approval ratings high enough for reelection? Nate, HELP! How do you predict your guy will govern?"


I believe one of the first things he'll push through, will be the initiation of troop withdrawals from Iraq, and the passage of the Middle Class Tax cuts. He is very passionate about both of those pursuits.

He will then push for correcting the oversight and regulation that's needed to make sure this crisis can't reoccur. He is quoted many times as saying he wants the correct amount of regulation, but not excessive regulation.

He will also be pushing for fully funding the No-Child-Left-Behind legislation that has already been passed. Most dems like the program in theory, but believe it needs more funding.

I believe he'll likely hold off on major new programs until the economy settles down and the tax MC-Tax Cuts settle in and they get a good idea of revenues. If all goes well the first year, expect them to press the Healthcare reform late in 2009 or 2010.

I also believe he's planning to press very very hard for a solution to the energy problems. He's planning to create a task force to study the solutions, and really motivate the corporations of America to participate. His plan to to relieve our foreign oil dependence in 10 years, and that will necessitate heavy investment by government similar to the Manned-Moon mission from the Kennedy era.

Other than these initiatives, I don't think he will press many more of his ideas until a second term. He needs the economy to rebound before he can make anything else happen, but these several programs are his A#1 list that he will not left undone.

Real Joe said...

markymark said...
joe, you know that will lead to more dissapointment for you!


:-(

but i need to see more data

jakam said...

Sarah Palin going into vicious attack mode is one case where her gender works against her, particularly among men. She'll sway few if any voters that weren't already voting for her ticket.

net-e said...

What happened in the last 20 years to make Minnesota a toss up state?

Tell me about it. I grew up there, moved away after college, then moved back a couple years ago.

I blame the all the "I had fingerprints when I was 12 weeks old" billboards you see every time you turn around.

Toby said...

Ain't it great .... eight years of conservative right-wing rule, a time when Karl Rove was predicting a "permanent Republican majority", and it produces ....

... the most liberal President since Kennedy and LBJ!

Didn't Bush, Cheney and Rove screw over those conservatives fine and dandy!

realistxxx said...

PA poll - WOOT!

McCain can't bail on PA. That puts in the entirely defensive scenario I described above. Very long odds of holding 7-8 tossups.

He won't abandon PA and move to say MN or WI wither because of PA's 21 EVs.

It's his only offensive play after giving up on MI.

markymark said...

mule rider,

I am always amused, no matter where or when it happens, that conservatives think that any stripe of progressive are about to ruin things (like things aren't pretty bad about now!) When have any liberals ever ruined America? During the deliberations over the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution (most of those were liberals), during the Civil War (when the liberal Lincoln saved the nation from the conservatves who had ruled throughout the 1850s), in the 1930s? during the Great Society? Conservatives have come far closer to destroying America nad what it stands for.

Brandon said...

This could be huge. The Alaska Supreme Court is going to hear appeals from lawyers trying to shut down the Troopergate investigation.

Stee Branchflower is due to release a report next Friday and could determine that Palin abused her power in Alaska

realistxxx said...

markymark said...
mule rider,

I am always amused, no matter where or when it happens, that conservatives think that any stripe of progressive are about to ruin things (like things aren't pretty bad about now!) When have any liberals ever ruined America? During the deliberations over the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution (most of those were liberals), during the Civil War (when the liberal Lincoln saved the nation from the conservatves who had ruled throughout the 1850s), in the 1930s? during the Great Society? Conservatives have come far closer to destroying America nad what it stands for.

---------------

You forgot that Teddy Roosevelt was a big time progressive too.

shadowguidex said...

"Barack Obama will continue the trend and turn us into a socialist, third world backwater behind neo-liberal, uber-progressive policies."

By your definition, at the very worst, we'll change to look a little more like some of the european powerhouse countries, and in many ways, that's not a bad thing at all. If you think we're going to become a Stalinist USSR type country, or a nation that resembles China's modern Socialism, then you're just a blowhard moron.

We're a very right leaning nation right now - we are, and have been for 30 years since Reagan took over. Currently, we're a lot closer to Nazi Germany's governmental style (Far Right) than we are China's (Far Left). If anything, Obama is going to move us to a more centrist position instead of the right-leaning model we've been ruled under for 30 years.

DCM in FL said...

Re: Hotline tracker

note they they have switched to an LV model today

also they disclosed their party ID as DEM +5 - similar to RR, but probably on the low side...

explains why they are lower than R2000 with a +9 DEm party ID

but if Obama is so far ahead in the trackers with a 'conservative' D party ID advantage, we can only imagine what the real margins will turn out to be !!!

be sure to read today's entire Hotline release @
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2008/10/the_early_line_1.html

MATT J. H. said...

Get the Nukes ready, Nuclear war is about to break out. McCain/Palin are going to go to a "Total Smearing" strategy. Typical GOP stuff. How does Obama react and how do voters see this with the economy being in such bad shape?

judas_priest said...

realist:

Treating each of those stares as independent is not a useful approximation, since the net change of each will be highly correlated, say about the r=.8 level, meaning that about 64% percent of variation in these states would be in lock step.

OTF said...

John,

The PA polls for the week or so are just as bad as MI which McCain pulled out of. CNN reported part of it may also be a money issue trying to play in so many states.


Quinipiac O+15( outlier but a solid lead even if you cut it in 1/2)

Rasmussen O+8

Morning call tracker now O+12

SUSA O+6

If McCain were smart, which he has shown no evidence in is campaign strategy thus far. He would pull out of PA, MN is a pipe dream as is ME. His one extremely slim chance is to forget turning any kerry states and try to defend all 8 Bush states. He is trailing in 6 of the 8 with the lastest margins in CO, VA, FL

Mule Rider said...

All you ever needed to know about the four candidates summed up in two or three sentences. I'll try and make one good point and one bad point about each, but the take home point is they are all unfit for the office of President (or Vice-President):

John McCain - Willing to sacrifice and lay it on the line for his country, even coming back full of passion for the good ole USA after a grueling, misguided war where he lost 5 years of his life as a POW.

Ill-tempered "maverick" who uses poor judgement, has convoluted, irregular and incomprehenisble policy positions who has gone against his own party more because he is an asshole and less because he's trying to "put country first" or "do what's right."

Barack Obama - Very talented speaker and intellect and has great understanding of constitutional law and a passion for social justice awareness and community level outreach and improvement.

Misguided, inexperienced, and naive liberal who is incapable of leading this country in any meaningful way and has been associated with several individuals with a less than patriotic view of this country.

Sarah Palin - Dedicated mom who is uncompromising in her values and seems genuinely interested in being in politics to "reform" and make things better.

Inexperienced, ignorant, and hopelessly lost when it comes to the big picture.

Joe Biden - Very dedicated politician who comes out of the "down-to-earth" mold and has championed the "little guy" throughout his career.

Plain and simple. He's a failure. He was not the brightest bulb in the batch, and to tell the truth, the only reason he has 4 decades in "public service" is because he has no redeeming qualities or ability to lead or be successful at anything else.

That's it in a nutshell.

markymark said...

realistixxx

I have an uneasy relationship with TR. I like parts of his reputation, but parts leave me a bit cold. He's the link between the 19th Century GOP of Lincoln, and the 20th Century GOP.

But yeah I could have included him on my list, as I could have included Woodrow Wilson and Jack Kennedy and Bill Clinton.

One of the reasons that Reagan is always mentioned by the GOP is he is about the only conservative icon who comes close to any of the liberals I have mentioned.

DCM in FL said...

the commentary with the MN S&T poll release explains WHY the reversed #'s & attributes it directly to the negative ads from the GOP...

makes sense. same here in FL IMHO

McCain ads are McNasty

Obama's are now mostly sweetness & light as he speaks directly to the voters with confidence & optimism

Mac & Palin are ratcheting up even more the NASTY attacks as of today [McCain on the stump & Palin with the 'palling [sic] around with terrorists' pitch she launched today in CO & CA.

I hope that the entire nation will quickly sour on the NASTY attacks & swing even more to Obama & all the DEMS in a tidal wave

but first I do expect a slight 'bounce' nexyt week for GOP as the attack ads are effective in the short time.

GOP may be playing that all-in negative hand too soon IMHO; but they are clearly desperate, no ?

My 'yard' sign proudly says:

OBAMA/BIDEN
hope action change

Real Joe said...



McCain & Plain on attack mode ! YAAAAAY !

Palin accuses the Illinois Senator of “palling around with terrorists who would target their own country” with while speaking to GOP donors in Englewood, Colorado Saturday.

Her remarks come in response to a New York Times story on Obama’s relationship with former Weather Underground member Bill Ayers.

McCain campaign and RNC dustribute her words by email to reporters.

“There’s been a lot of interest in what I read lately. Well, I was reading my copy of today’s New York Times and I was really interested to read about Barack’s friends from Chicago. Turns out, one of his earliest supporters is a man who, according to The New York Times was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, ‘launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and the U.S. Capitol.’ These are the same guys who think patriotism is paying higher taxes. This is not a man who sees America as you and I do - as the greatest force for good in the world. This is someone who sees America as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists who targeted their own country. This, ladies and gentlemen, has nothing to do with the kind of change anyone can believe in - not my kids and not your kids. The only man who can take on Washington is John McCain.”

realistxxx said...

shadowguidex said...
"Barack Obama will continue the trend and turn us into a socialist, third world backwater behind neo-liberal, uber-progressive policies."

By your definition, at the very worst, we'll change to look a little more like some of the european powerhouse countries, and in many ways, that's not a bad thing at all. If you think we're going to become a Stalinist USSR type country, or a nation that resembles China's modern Socialism, then you're just a blowhard moron.

We're a very right leaning nation right now - we are, and have been for 30 years since Reagan took over. Currently, we're a lot closer to Nazi Germany's governmental style (Far Right) than we are China's (Far Left). If anything, Obama is going to move us to a more centrist position instead of the right-leaning model we've been ruled under for 30 years.

------------

You're exactly right, Shadow. There was an economist on The News Hour last night that said the Gov controls about 30% of the US economy, whereas, in Denmark it's above 60%. There's a lot of room between the Scandinavian model and the US one... and both are successful.

In the 90's Sweden nationalized it's banks after a severe currency/credit crisis (Sound familiar?). Several years later they re-privatized them and made a hefty profit on the transaction.

evenswr said...

RE: Whatever happened to MN?

Paul Wellstone's plane crashed.

Also, according to Wikipedia, Minnesota is 87.3% White, and the per capita income in 2005 was $37,290, the tenth-highest in the nation. The three-year median household income from 2002 to 2004 was $55,914, ranking fifth in the U.S. and first among the 36 states not on the Atlantic coast.

However, also according to Wikipedia, Minnesota has one of the most highly educated and literate populations.

So, as well-to-do white people go, we're not so bad.

realistxxx said...

judas_priest said...
realist:

Treating each of those stares as independent is not a useful approximation, since the net change of each will be highly correlated, say about the r=.8 level, meaning that about 64% percent of variation in these states would be in lock step.

---------------

I acknowledged it was an over simplification. However, if they truly remain tossups then in essence they are approximating independent coin flips. I also gave McCain a generous 60% chance on winning each coin flip.

Nate's Monte Carlo simulation is basically doing this, although inter-dependence is included in the modeling.

markymark said...

evenswr,

One reason I ask, is I have never met a Minnesotan who doesn't come across as a good liberal. (Even Coleman used to be a DFLer I think I am right in saying, or is it Pawlenty? Its certainly one of them if not both!) Save from Boston, which is were my family is from originally, I think Minnesota is one of my fave places in America, and it slightly shocks me that it is trending purple.

Tim R said...

It's all over but the shouting. Palin helps McSame with the base but everyone else hates her. I bet he wishes he would have selected Mitt for his running mate. Even a couple of good debates won't save McSame.


President Barack Hussain Obama!!!!!

say it with me con-dumbs----:-)

Lorne Guyland said...

OT Site Question That's Been Bothering Me:

Nate: looking at the Electoral Vote Distribution graph, it would seem that, for instance, in yesterday's run, every integer of Obama EV's between about 180 and 480 occurred in at least one simulation. And between around 240 and 400 every integer occurs at least 20-25 times! Though the range varies, this seems to have been a constant over the whole life of the graph (hundreds of runs by now, encompassing millions of simulations).

That seems, mathematically, highly unlikely. Is it true? Or am I taking the graph too literally, or misinterpreting an image-scale issue?

Apologies for OT.

momo said...

It's important to point out that locally in the Twin Cities, that SUSA poll is called the KSTP/SUSA poll because it was done by the TV station owned by Stan Hubbard, one of Norm Coleman's big contributers and a staunch Republican party activist. I have seen him use his TV station as a bully pulpit for his ideas before. I never assume any poll with "KSTP" attached to it is unbiased. And I see that it has done its job of in getting at least some people to believe that MN is a toss-up. Don't buy it, folks, it's a load of BS.

Phoeflame said...

Markymark wins the thread. The truth is that this country has not had a truly liberal president since FDR, and I think that worked out pretty well, eh? By contrast, we've had plenty of conservative presidents, and well, how exactly did that all work out?

In each case, economic recession, further division between rich and poor, black and white, and further erosion of basic civil rights.

Barack Obama is hardly the leftist radical the Republicans paint him as (leftists in Europe would laugh at the U.S. definition of "far-left"), but I think it's about time we have a president at least somewhat closer to that side of the spectrum.

Subterranean said...

Mule Rider said:

"Barack Obama...Misguided, inexperienced, and naive liberal who is incapable of leading this country in any meaningful way..."

I don't follow your reasoning. BHO has >50% average support in the trackers for PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY, and he is somehow incapable of meaningful leadership?

What the hell does it take to qualify as a leader in your book, if this doesn't do it?

Mule Rider said...

First off, my apology for the misuse of neo-liberal when I meant to say ultra-libera.

A couple of other things....it's laughable when you assholes compare the liberals of today to the "liberals" of yore...the Teddy Roosevelts and Lincolns and Washingtons etc.

They would be abhorred by the antics of so-called liberals today.

And when have liberals f-ed things up? Hmmm, let's see, how much time do I have here?

FDR's liberal policies during the 30's kept this country in a far deeper hole and much longer depression than would have otherwise been the case. His only redeeming quality was that he spoke well and restored faith, hope, and determination in the people. His policies were awful.

Were it not "liberals" who were in office when we got so worried about Vietnam? Enough said.

Getting out of sheer politics and addressing what I call "liberal factions"...there are numerous groups the liberal end of the Democratic party has pandered to and brough on board who are almost as bad as having and supporting domestic terrorists...at best, these groups are as guilty as the neo-con evangelical crowd cramming their beliefs down our throat by taking a secular agenda and trying to cram that down our throat.

Environmental terrorists (groups like ELF)? Other envirnomental radicals?

Radical animal rights proponents whose mission is to turn the entire country vegan through legislation?

Groups like ACORN, the Rainbow Push Coalition, and other extremist groups that push a cause for one particular group of people who stiff-arm and bully business and industry with threats of lawsuits and defamation if they don't cave to their narrow agendas?

Yeah, this "liberalism" has all been good for the country.

MrInsight22 said...

Given the overall context, McCain cannot possibly win with a positive bipartisan approach so he has no choice but to go negative hard and heavy since that gives him maybe a 25% chance of victory. Only a fool would not go heavy negative at this point.

In 2004, every polling site warned that the Star Tribune is notoriously biased to Democrats.

Green-Guard said...

Hello all! It is my first post in this great site. Really good job Nate, I seriously think that you should be hired in the future by candidates to help them analyze the data and adjust their strategy accordingly. Considering Minnesota, I think that it is close (one of the few states trending red over time) and that Obama should air some ads there just so that the dems get a morale boost again. (it is not like he is out of money!).

Real Joe said...



new McCain ad

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/3096/mccainintrohq5.jpg

Subterranean said...

And to clarify---I have no opinion on whether Obama's leadership would be in the right(?) direction, but it seems insane to say he can't lead.

Tom said...

This looks like a Senate race that Obama could impact. If the DFL base is sufficiently energized, and Obama can win a sizable number of independents, he could approach a double-digit victory there which could drag Franken along to victory. This really is a state where Obama should allocate more resources. The Presidential polls there are close and there is a hotly-contested Senate race. Assuming McCain really does pull out of Michigan, reallocate some of the Michigan resources, in terms of staff and advertising dollars, to Minnesota. Make a couple visits there, maybe one to the Twin Cities, one to the central or northern part of the state. Minnesota is a state where it seems as though Obama has made minimal effort thinking he had it in the bag, but it's sufficiently close that some effort there would probably go a long way.

Real Joe said...

green-guard said...
Hello all! It is my first post in this great site


welcome green-guard

Hikermama said...

Palin in attack mode....


Does anyone know if Palin is still drawing the large crowds? I couldn't find any information about that.

John Nail said...

realistxxx: Now you see why they abandoned MI.

The "nightmare scenario" a tie is about all McCain has left to play for plus get that one vote in Maine which is unlikely.

He would have to win all the remaining open states (almosr zero chance) and turn WI or MN - unlikely to even get to 269.

IF he did that he would need the ME2 EV to get 270. Obama in contesting the Omaha NE EV so he could win that and it would be 270 - 268 for him.

Here's a post with some more details on this.
http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/jnail/blog/&blogId=4559

joel said...

Maybe Joe Biden ought to bring up trooper gate, how Palin is obstructing justice. They just sound desperate when they reach into the gutter.
All these issues have been talked about before and have gone no where. They have nothing to run on, it`s to bad that McCain can`t go out with dignity.

SantiagoDave said...

Just returned from the GOTV organiazing committee here in Santiago, Chile. The Obama ground game AROUND THE WORLD is geared up and making a play for every vote. It is estimated that there are between 6 and 7 million non-military expats in the world, and they lean roughly 70% Democratic. In 2004, the total non-military expat vote percentage was 10% of that group. Seven million is about the size of Washington or Massachusetts. No campaign has ever gone after this group in an organized fashion before this year. If you know anyone who lives overseas, and will be there during the election, encourage them to go to www.votefromabroad.org to receive a ballot request form AND a FWAP (Federal Absentee Write-In Ballot) that can be sent in for insurance that your vote will count---this FWAB is for Federal elections only, and your vote WILL NOT be counted twice.

Mule Rider said...

I don't follow your reasoning. BHO has >50% average support in the trackers for PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY, and he is somehow incapable of meaningful leadership?

What the hell does it take to qualify as a leader in your book, if this doesn't do it?


Maybe I don't follow your logic you pile of steaming dog shit.

By your "logic," Obama has qualified to be a "leader" because he is leading in the trackers to be president. That's it? Simply because we have been given a choice between the two major parties as to who will lead and because one has more support than the other, THAT is your rationale for rebuffing me and saying he will be able to lead in a meaningful way? Your oversimplification and completely illogical assertion discount you from ever being taken seriously again.

By that assessment, George Bush led John Kerry in the polls and tracking numbers in 2004 leading up to that election. So by that fact alone, did that make him capable of leading the country in a meaningful way?

Yeah, I didn't think you could answer yes to that one.

I've caught you in a whopper your hypocritical rotten cunt. I hope you trip and fall and break something important you cum-guzzling know-nothing assclown.

Hikermama said...

"Maybe Joe Biden ought to bring up trooper gate, how Palin is obstructing justice. "

I don't get why this isn't a bigger issue. I'm not sure most people even know about it.

shadowguidex said...

Re: Obama "Socialism" vs. McCain "Fascism"


American is an interventionist nation (Right wing trait). We interfere directly in other nation's affairs both militarily and economically to force them to do or become what we want. This was true of the British Empire, Nazi Germany, Austria-Hungarian Empire, Fascist Italy, Colonial France, Israel, Ancient Rome, The Ottoman Empire, and USA in the 1800s. Leftist nations are not interventionist, they are isolationists and don't interfere with other nations unless they themselves are attacked. Examples include USA in the early 1900s under FDR, China from Ming dynasty till modern times, Stalin's Soviet Russia, Japan pre-1850, Persia pre-Islamic Revolution, Ancient Egypt, Modern India, and Modern Europe. These examples from both sides are not all to the same degree, but they all show left or rightist tendencies in terms of intervention.

America is also more Hawk than Dove. Hawkish policies are a Right leaning tendency. The Bush doctrine is a very right leaning methodology or pre-emptive interventionism through military force, and it's an extremely hawkish position. Very hawkish nations include modern USA, British Empire, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the Roman Empire. Again, all right side powers.

Another component is Inward vs. Outward thinking. America today looks outwardly. Outward looking right leaning nations blame all their problems on others instead of themselves. Our modern American problems are blamed on Islamic Fundmentalism, China, Europe, Illegal Latino Immigrants, Non-Christians, etc. Other examples of outward thinking are Islamic Iran, Modern Israel, Nazi Germany, and Imperial Japan. Leftist thinking nations tend to first look at themselves inwardly to determine their problems and correct them, again playing into the more isolationist ideas. Examples are modern Scandinavia, Modern China, and Ancient Babylonia. Xenophobic nations that distrust all others and constantly think the world is against them are FAR more likely to attack others, bully people, and force their ideas on others. That's not a good position to be in, but that's today's Republican Conservative, Neo-con party.

John McCain is truly an extreme right winger in these catagories - he is Extremely Hawkish, he's an Interventionist, and he projects Outward instead of inward.

Barack Obama is not a Dove, but he''s far less Hawkish than McCain. Obama is a fine balance between Interventionist and Isolationist, and he's also a fine balance between inward and outward projection. He will move us to the center, but under no terms can anyone honestly call him a left-winger. He's to the left of McCain and Bush who are both extreme right, but there is a lot of room to the left of them.

net-e said...

All you ever needed to know about the four candidates summed up in two or three sentences.

@mulerider

I agree with you for the most part. But they don't stay as they are today, if and when elected.

Therefore, one also needs to consider how those differing personality types will react to pressure cooker that is The White House, especially in the current climate.

Eric said...

Perhaps people will hear that biden just sent his son off to IRaq and wants to be by his mother-in-law's side and he'll be appreciated it for it. Palin is going on lie attack mode and Biden has been taken on off of the campaign trail at his most effective moment (87% thought he's read to be Prez after the debate, very high number) to be at his wife and mother-in-law's side. I'm glad he cares about his family. He's obviously a good man, just wish he could be in two places at once. That's all.

ialex said...

Mulerider, you are vile. I don't care who you support but you need to drop that negativity. It's not healthy.

tomthress said...

"Re: Hotline tracker

note they they have switched to an LV model today

also they disclosed their party ID as DEM +5 - similar to RR, but probably on the low side...

explains why they are lower than R2000 with a +9 DEm party ID"

Obama is OUTPERFORMING the Democratic Party ID in Rasmussen (Obama +6, Dems +5.6 - this could actually be a tie w/ rounding), Diageo (Obama +7, Dems +5), and Research 2000 (Obama +12, Dems +9).

So much for the question of why Obama isn't doing better than a generic Democrat.

Mule Rider said...

American is an interventionist nation (Right wing trait)

Yeah, Kennedy, LBJ, and McNamara were all right-wingers...

Glad you cleared that up...

Actually you might want to just stop. You are embarrassing yourself.

Subterranean said...

Mule Rider said:

"By that assessment, George Bush led John Kerry in the polls and tracking numbers in 2004 leading up to that election. So by that fact alone, did that make him capable of leading the country in a meaningful way?

Yeah, I didn't think you could answer yes to that one."


Um, of course I would answer "yes"---Bush successfully poured trillions of the country's resources into pursuing his lunatic agenda. He has been an ASTOUNDINGLY bulletproof leader, although in my opinion he has led us straight to hell.

The US electorate is full of half-zombie, half-chimp human caricatures with worms for brains and nothing but fear in their hears. They're scum.

Nonetheless, leading them by the nose successfully is a fairly impressive accomplishment.

cora said...

realistxxx



US pubblic spending is over 40 % od GDP after the bailout (it was 38 % before). For some dumb reasons we always like to forget our HUGE military spendings !

UK pubblic spending is 36% of GDP. They have universal hc and send soldiers to Iraq !

DENMARK's GDP is 72 % non-government- Which makes it the 11th freest country in the world. 60 % is their nation debt. (Ours is over 100 %).

Again, read, study, get the facts right, use the internet. Stay curious and free of mind. Don't let the mediacrats do the thinking for you !

Ed M. said...

Yer gettin awful worked up, Mule. I suggest a cold bevvie (alcoholic if possible) and a break.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

GREAT NEWS!!!

Pennsylvania moves to "Solid Obama" on the RCP map:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

Michigan is still leaning Obama. Did they pick the wrong state to pull out of?

realistxxx said...

John Nail said...
realistxxx: Now you see why they abandoned MI.

The "nightmare scenario" a tie is about all McCain has left to play for plus get that one vote in Maine which is unlikely.

He would have to win all the remaining open states (almosr zero chance) and turn WI or MN - unlikely to even get to 269.

IF he did that he would need the ME2 EV to get 270. Obama in contesting the Omaha NE EV so he could win that and it would be 270 - 268 for him.

Here's a post with some more details on this.
http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/jnail/blog/&blogId=4559

-----------------

I agree and my post wasn't a revelation for me. It was just to show that Nate's model is not biased. When you look at the right leaning RCP you come to the same conclusion as Nate.

Do you think he should stay in PA?

I think he almost has to for morale reasons alone. However, the PA polls are looking as bad as MI. If that continues, then from a pure numbers perspective he should bail... but I don't think he can.

Subterranean said...

Oh, and no matter who loses this election, China wins. Democracy is not a viable social contract in the 21st century with an electorate like the one we have here.

Period. Democracy is dead.

FreeThinker said...

Shadow

Right on with your assessment of an Obama administration.

It's time to put Ronald Reagan's famous quote, "Government is the problem", on the trash heap of history. The Repugs have been trying to prove this every time they run the government. What we need are free and fair markets, and that is the role of responsible government to ensure. NO MORE DESPOTS!!

Eric said...

I believe Palin is the unbearable weight McCain must drag every step of the way that completely stops him from having a chance. Ohio and Florida don't put up with stupidity. I hop the GOP learns a valuable lesson here and stops sending dimwits like Quayle, Bush Jr., and Palin into the forefront. They need to learn to start sending more centrist and more intelligent people out to win national elections or die off as a party. This is healthy for America. Republicans, maybe you can send her out to be your nominee un 2012 and put off hitting rock bottom. That;d be nice. Give us time to cement a stranglehold on the government and force you foolish RepubliCONs to change or accept the fact that you don't get any power for a long, long time.

Mule Rider said...

Subterranean,

You are a brainless imp. You hate the USA. You are unpatriotic. You are a loser. You do not deserve the freedoms that generations of men and women have sought to preserve with their lives and blood.

You should leave this country and not look back.

markymark said...

mule rider,

Wow, I mean wow. Ok first off the New Deal. Conservatives had had 3 years to sort things out, and had pretty much sucked. FDR at least restored some faith into the nation, stopped a banking crisis, won reelection by a massive landslide, introduced union rights, and basically reenergised a collapsing democracy. Its easy to forget what a mess the nation was in in 1932.

Vietnam, hmmm well, fair enough on domestic issues LBJ was liberal, but on FP he was always pretty much a hawk. And Presidents of both parties, and all political stripes have blood on there hands over Vietnam. (Rather than ending the War, Nixon expanded the theatre of war and the war dragged on for 5 and 1/2 years under his administration.) And hey if we wanna bring in extreme factions, what about abortion health clinic terrorists, or the NRA, or any number of 'Civilian Militias' around the country.

Sorry but it actually makes my blood boil when people describe liberals as UnAmerican. America is a Liberal Democracy, it should be shouting from the hilltops about its liberalism. It should be a national disgrace that people have no health care coverage, and that conservatives are happy to let the market sort out that mess, it should be a national disgrace that the US has invaded another sovereign nation, removed its head of state, and continues to occupy that country, and it should be a national disgrace that parts of the nation suffer from real poverty, not relative poverty, that would embarrass every other developed economy in the world. I am truly ashamed that many of my fellow countrymen are happy to shruug there shoulders, ignore all of that and vote for people who ewant ot preserve the status quo without shame.

michiganmaine said...

That mulerider doesn't even know what the word "neo-liberal" means show his ignorance of the most basic characteristics of our present political situation. Surprise, surprise.


-

realistxxx said...

cora said...
realistxxx



US pubblic spending is over 40 % od GDP after the bailout (it was 38 % before). For some dumb reasons we always like to forget our HUGE military spendings !

UK pubblic spending is 36% of GDP. They have universal hc and send soldiers to Iraq !

DENMARK's GDP is 72 % non-government- Which makes it the 11th freest country in the world. 60 % is their nation debt. (Ours is over 100 %).

Again, read, study, get the facts right, use the internet. Stay curious and free of mind. Don't let the mediacrats do the thinking for you !

--------------

Very patronizing of you without a single reference or link.

Mule Rider said...

Democracy is not a viable social contract in the 21st century with an electorate like the one we have here.

The rest of us seem to prefer it much the way it is now. How about you leave if you are so fond of how governance is in the rest of the world?

Then you can be the one to say "I told you so" from Canada or France or whatever socialist backwater you prefer when we go "straight to hell" behind a "hopelessly ignorant electorate" that just can't make it as a modern democracy.

J said...

shadowguidex: What a great post.

I was on another website where there was a discussion about why the U.S. doesn't just negotiate with countries for resources. Instead, we bully our way over there, blow them back to the Stone Age, in the case of Latin America install puppet dictators and use covert ops to "disappear" dissidents, or damage entire populations with sanctions. We just don't seem to want to play the way other countries play.

Reminds me of that quote from Ledeen: "Every 10 years or so, the U.S. has to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business." :(

Subterranean said...

Mule Rider complained:

"You hate the USA. You are unpatriotic."

OH NO! Woe is me! I have no compulsive affection for a society largely composed of simpering, anti-intellectual retards!

You're hilarious.

OTF said...

Couchpotato,

RCP what's a lean and solid is dubious at best. They have no standards which are consistent.

Maine is solid O+7.6
NJ is a lean O+8.6
WA is a lean O+8

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

It appears you need to have at least a 9.0 average to be "solid".

So one or two more good polls in Washington, New Jersey, and New Mexico should push them into the solid category as well.

C said...

The funny thing is, MN liberals usually looove the Independence Party. They play the spoilers who let Pawlenty win yet again, despite his unpopularity. (Cue all the "MN's turning purple!!" articles ....)

Average, liberal MN voters just don't like partisanship very much. There was a study that just came out showing that when you introduced politics into a survey question about VP picks ("Would you support John McCain's pick of Charlie Crist, if it would help him in FL?"), it turned off Liberals big time. Liberals want MN Nice. Reminds me of that saying "Conservatives can't do policy, Liberals can't do politics"... so Republicans win.

Anyway, I bet the common Republican voter doesn't really know much about the Independence Party but just likes the word "Independence." Much like the Ron Paul conservatives abandoning the GOP brand because they cling to conservatism but cannot believe it doesn't work in practice (George W), these voters are looking elsewhere but are still unable to vote Dem.

couchpotatoxxx12 said...

"RCP what's a lean and solid is dubious at best. They have no standards which are consistent."

From what I can tell, below 5.0 - toss up, 5.0 - 8.9 - leaning, 9.0+ - solid

The only exception is Maine. I don't know why.

cora said...

Subterranean said...
Oh, and no matter who loses this election, China wins. Democracy is not a viable social contract in the 21st century with an electorate like the one we have here.

Period. Democracy is dead.

*******
can I say idiotic ?

Which are the viable social contracts in the 21st centyury ?

nazism ? feudalism ? stalinism ? fascism ? anarchy ? tribalism ?

please enlighten me master.

C said...

Meaning to say, the opposite effect of the Independence Party is happening this time around, due to the extreme unpopularity of the GOP brand.

shadowguidex said...

"Yeah, Kennedy, LBJ, and McNamara were all right-wingers...

Glad you cleared that up...

Actually you might want to just stop. You are embarrassing yourself."



Yes, those men were Centrists, not Leftists. Kennedy intervened in Cuba and Vietnam. LBJ continued to interventionism and Hawkish stance in Vietnam. Reagan took an already Center or Right-Center nation and move us to the extreme Right. Bush maintained us there, Clinton moved us a little more towards the center, but still had interventionist policies towards Iraq, Bosnia, Somalia, etc, and Bush Junior moved us back to the right side of the spectrum.

We haven't had a true Leftist president since FDR - they have all been center to center right, with Reagan and Bush 43 being the most Right wing. FDR was an isolationist, dovish, inward projected leftist.

Obama is similar to Kennedy, he is a centrist - he'll intervene with force when necessary. You keep thinking that anyone who isn't as right wing as Reagan is a communist, socialist, Marxist leftist, etc - and that's just a totally uneducated and ignorant viewpoint. Reagan scared the whole world with his extreme viewpoints. USA today scares much of the world, because the world sees us as a hawkish interventionist - hence the extreme backlash against us from half the world. We spend more money on our Military than the rest of the world COMBINED! That's the epitome of Hawkish Interventionism.

markymark said...

Oh and another thng, whilst I| have my soapbox out. When did it become cool to say that to criticise America was 'unpatriotic'. Many of the most patriotic Americans have been able to criticise America. I would never suggest Reagan was unpatriotic, yet he criticised Medicare, many very patriotic people have criticised virtually any war America has fought. If you require blind faith in the actions of your countries government, then in my view you arethe least patriotic person alive.

Mule Rider said...

And you're sad.

The pure greatness of this country is the only thing allowing you to call the majority of your fellow citizens a bunch if "simpering, anti-intellectual retards."

I hope you live long enough and find a way to be under the rule of a truly oppressive society if you think that the current form of the USA is so bad.

You would no doubt be publicly castrated or humiliated in some other way and then have hot iron rods shoved in your anus. How does that sound? In my opinion, you deserve that anyway.

You all will see. The failed neo-con policies will bring about the "liberal reformation." It will come in like the next big thing. Too bad you all are going to be sorely disappointed when we're not restored to anything of any significance and liberalism sends us down the toilet of a third world society.

We will be no better than Zimbabwe in 50 years. Mark my word. And the conservatives will have dissipated like a myth long before then (like now), so they will no longer be around to blame.

Liberalism in the current form is a joke and will pillage and plunder this country until it is completely worthless.

Subterranean said...

cora -

Get back to me in a decade.

I mean,I'm sorry, but but have you noticed that almost 40% of this country votes based on a desire to impose Bronze Age ethics on female reproductive choice?

51% of the US believes the universe is 7000 years old. Hello?

Green-Guard said...

Sorry for posting again so soon but I have been a site regular for 5 months now and never got to posting. Mule rider why are you so negative with Europe? France is not a socialist country and Iam pretty certain that if you call Sarkozy a socialist he will laugh himself to tears. The Germans that gave such a hearty welcome to Obama in the summer voted for the right wing CDU/CSU alliance in last elections. That is not to say left wingers do not like Obama (we love the guy!) but that Obama will be respected by the entire political spectrum of foreign countries regardless of alignment and that means a LOT!

Mule Rider said...

I'm not saying people who criticize - and by criticize, I mean intelligently approach and articulate the misgivings of this country - are unpatriotic...

I'm saying those who call this a dead democracy and compare it to Nazi Germany and say the vast majority of its citizenry is a bunch of know-nothing, imbecil lemmings are unpatriotic.

There's a difference.

justin32099 said...

mule rider is demonstrating that "liberal"-bashing intolerant jackasses who claim they're patriotic don't actually support the principles of free speech, except for people that agree with them.

It fits in nicely with the philosophy of the GOP this decade.

shadowguidex said...

"You all will see. The failed neo-con policies will bring about the "liberal reformation." It will come in like the next big thing. Too bad you all are going to be sorely disappointed when we're not restored to anything of any significance and liberalism sends us down the toilet of a third world society.

We will be no better than Zimbabwe in 50 years. Mark my word. And the conservatives will have dissipated like a myth long before then (like now), so they will no longer be around to blame."


You're a misguided ignorant tool. "Mark my words"...um, no thanks, your words are just a babbling fountain of ignorance projected from whatever right wing tit you're suckling on. The "liberal reformation" will, at MOST, make us centrist, not even center-left like Europe. Not even close to left wing like China - who, byt the way, is destroying us in every measurable benchmark for economic growth - yeah, their an extreme leftist nation, and they're making fools of us.

NOBODY in America was us to become a China-modeled Socialist nation - yet you continue to think that sliding us to the left to become a more center balanced nation is somehow turning us into a socialist nation. You're flat-out fucktarded to think that we're even close. I have no doubts that the extreme right xenophobic hawk interventionists will by and large begin to thin in numbers in the coming years, but by no means will we suddenly become a non-religious nation who values the state over the individual like China. That shit ain't gonna happen, so stop drudging up plays from that playbook. You're a tool - and not even a skilled intelligent tool - just a flat-out ridiculous ignorant baseline tool. You know...you're allowed to think for yourself in America, right? I'd advise you to begin to exercise that right.

@Zimbabwe. laugh out loud.

Mule Rider said...

justin32099,

You don't know shit either. I'm not a GOPer, Republican, or whatever. I'm a God damn Independent. Got that?

On foreign policy, I'm as "dovish" as they come. I think we're waaaaaaaay too involved in other countries, and I'd be for pulling troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan wihin the next year....and on top of that, I'd be for closing down our bases around the world where we have a presence - even peaceful - and bringing EVERYBODY home.

There's no sense in being strung out around the globe. Our military should be HERE to defend THESE borders...and NOWHERE else in the world.

Mule Rider said...

I'm as centrist as they come, buddy.

No party affiliation. Extremely non-partisan.

You are the fool. You just don't get it.

Hence, you keep coming to and "sucking the teet" of a left-wing blog.

You are human garbage.

markymark said...

Yeah Justin, the GOP is way to moderate for Mule rider's tastes!

Mule Rider said...

I can not stand the right-wing of the Republican party, and I can't stand most Republicans.

I'm a moderate. An independent. I cry foul at all partisan hacks like you bastard children.

mark said...

i think mule rider is missing a chromosome or too, spouting ridiculous rhetoric


simmer down muley, simmer down , you'll wake up soon enough and realize just how wrong you are

OTF said...
This post has been removed by the author.
markymark said...

Oh and for Mule rider and any other 'independents' (is Iino a good term???) the reasons we liberals come to 538.com is that it offers a good mix of statistical analysis of an election we are enjoying watching, and political discussion about said election, even with the odd sensible contribution from intellectuial conservatives.

DCM in FL said...

MULE HEAD said

"I'm not a GOPer, Republican, or whatever. I'm a God damn Independent."

nah, Mulie, Independent you are not. I know real Independents - and you are not one of them.

however, I am convinced you are 'cetifiable'...

hehaw

Mule Rider said...

There just aren't any - or very few - right wing nuts on here to bash.

It's a liberal blog. Liberals lurk in here like roaches behind the fridge. That's why I come across as being in all-out attack mode against liberals.

If this were a right-wing site full of hacks, I'd chew their ass and tear them a new one as well.

OTF said...

The state of the race: EV with all states w/ lead 5 or more

Obama 264 McCain 163

Bush States Obama contesting
CO O+4.4
FL O+3
VA O+2.4
OH O+2
NV O+1.8
NC O+0.5
MO M+1.7
IN M+2.2

Kerry States McCain contesting
PA O+9.6
NH O+5.6
MN O+5
WI O+5

Mule Rider said...

DCM in FL,

I have never voted Republican. I have never supported a Republican candidate. I have never joined any action committee or done anything supportive of "right-wing" policies.

To suggest or say otherwise makes you a God-damned liar.

DCM in FL said...

MULIE

better watch out. MASON may show up at any time to pwn your tired ol' azz...

markymark said...

Ok mule, name some Presidents that you admire.

shadowguidex said...

"Liberalism in the current form is a joke and will pillage and plunder this country until it is completely worthless."

Mule...you can't claim to be a centrist and make claims like the one above. You're making yourself into a hypocritical tool, not just a garden variety one. You don't know what liberalism is. Until you recognize that America is already a Right-Wing nation, you really have no basis for claiming that "Liberalism in its current form" will somehow destroy us. Truth be told - American liberalism in its current form, is actually centrism.

I'm liberal, and Obama is way more conservative than I prefer. I'm a Wellstone, Feingold, Scandinavia type liberal, not a Kennedy, Obama, Truman "liberal". Blue doesn't mean liberal, it means more liberal than than the conservatives.

So, man up - just admit you're a conservative, you're not a moderate. You're not an independent (maybe by party ID but certainly not in thought or action), and you're clearly not a liberal since you don't even know what a liberal really is.

Eric said...

Mule Rider said...
I can not stand the right-wing of the Republican party, and I can't stand most Republicans.

I'm a moderate. An independent. I cry foul at all partisan hacks like you bastard children.


It sounds to me like unless you're a one issue voter, like say, abortion or something, you should be voting Democrat. The Republican party you would like hasn't existed for at least 30 years. It's been hijacked and bastardized so badly that at this point Jesse Jackson could run for President and be closer to the center than any Republican. Why would you possibly consider voting for McCain if you're a centrist, especially on foreign policy. He's the most belligerent hawkish candidate I can think of.

Mule Rider said...

DCM in FL,

One more thing. You don't know me. Do you want ot meet? If you think you've got me figured out, let's sit down and chat. You'd be surprised fuckstick.

But you too scared to do that. You're too busy performing fellatio every day in here on Nate about every poll that comes out.

You are a sad excuse.

John said...

Rasmussen just posted their new weightings.

39.3% Democratic, 33.3% Republican, and 27.4%

The difference is now D+6, up from D+5.4 last week.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/new_rasmussen_reports_party_weighting_targets_39_3_democrat_33_3_republican

DCM in FL said...

MULIE

hey, I was NOT suggesting you are a GOP troll - only stating the obvious...

you ARE 'certifiably' an ass

or a loonie toon

actually, over time on this site you have proven time & time again that you are both a braying ass AND a certifiable loon

Subterranean said...

Lol, Mule Rider needs to review the twoplustwo.com archives to upgrade his insults.

His rhetoric is too juvenile and predictable to be genuinely unsettling. Trust me, I've been the target of some seriously destabilizing critiques in my day.

Also, a bit of free advice---it's hard to use homophobic slurs effectively against people who aren't homophobes, lol.

OTF said...

John,

Any news on what will be the next set of Ras Polls? The only thing released today was ME.

Mule Rider said...

I'm not voting McCain.

And don't try and pass off liberalism in America as completely normal because it's "centrist" compared to everywhere else.

You can call a dog turd a rose, but it's still shit, and it still stinks.

shadowguidex said...

Hey mule. One good thing about being Liberal...I'm not afraid of anything. Not gays, not lesbians, not foreigners, not immigrants, not atheists, not christians, not muslims, not conservatives, and most definitely not YOU. I'd beat your ass in an intellectual or physical confrontation. I don't need to cling to a gun or bible out of fear of everything that isn't in my small circle of comfort. Bring it on, kiddo.

DCM in FL said...

SUB

I agree with your critique on MULE HEAD's puerile behaviour.

when he gats all worked up to a lather, Mulie gets extremely vile as he flings crap about his pen...


being 'flamed' as it were by Mulie is a badge of honor, and his attempts to defame us are back-handed complements, even the one's he intends to be homophobic.

his words prove what a hollow shell he really is - sad & pathetic.

especially since he 'claims' not to have a horse running in this race - what a crock of donkey doo that is !

Guancous said...

Mule Rider has a borderline personality disorder. He needs Prozac and support to get the help he needs.

shadowguidex said...

"You can call a dog turd a rose, but it's still shit, and it still stinks."


FYI everyone - by "Dog Turd" he means the current European Economic model which was thriving with higher growth and currency value than us for the bulk of the past decade. If being stable and prosperous is dog shit, then I'll gladly wallow in it.

Becky Sharp said...

@mule rider
When you talk straight you are a smart guy. One of the smartest here. I disagree with you on 50% of what you say but that's OK...I welcome your presence here

@real joe
The debates won't trigger any seismic shifts, one or two per cent at the most. McCain's biggest hope is either
1) A major scandal involving Obama directly (e.g. a 3 in a bed with Elliot Spitzer and Bob Dole)
2) A game turning news story - most likely right now is that Osama will be tracked down

Barring 1) or 2) I can't see much movement besides at the most a slow attrition of Obama support.

shadowguidex said...

"1) A major scandal involving Obama directly (e.g. a 3 in a bed with Elliot Spitzer and Bob Dole)"


My eyes! They BURN!

J said...

Mule Rider, what would you have the government spend money on if you want to defund defense to the extent you do?

I actually agree with you on that position, but I'm interested in plowing that defense spending into projects at home - single payer health care, single payer day care, free education through college, more green energy projects, infrastructure, single payer gym memberships :o) , jobs and skills training programs, nationalizing energy resources, etc.

Bill P. said...

Mule Rider -

Bill Clinton isn't as big a liar as John McCain. You're talking out of your ass instead of riding it.

Becky Sharp said...

Rasmussen just posted their new weightings.
39.3% Democratic, 33.3% Republican, and 27.4%
The difference is now D+6, up from D+5.4 last week.


This may be the best news of all for Obama. The gradual erosion of Dem registration which has been in effect since operation chaos voters returned to the fold appears to have run its course

Yayyyyyyyyy!!!

Bill P. said...

Every time conservatism has brought America to her knees, liberalism has raised her up. That's reality, and reality has a liberal bias.

fred said...

Let's just ignore Mulre Rider, his arguments are nonsensical.

McCain is giving up and essentially playing a small defense strategy of winning all the Bush states he has left, and the polls say that is damn near impossible.

Keep up the ground game, get the early voters to the polls!

Becky Sharp said...

"1) A major scandal involving Obama directly (e.g. a 3 in a bed with Elliot Spitzer and Bob Dole)"

My eyes! They BURN!


Ha, and so they should! I wrote that with Jen in mind - but I guess she's not here

Bill P. said...

Agreed, Fred.

People like Mule Rider who can't be bothered to take a side or support an ideology can't be allowed to steal our time this close to victory.

A centrist? Really? Go stand in the center of the freeway and see what happens.

Pick a side...for safety's sake. :~)

fred said...

Real Joe-

I have the poll for you! Zogby said they are releasing a poll today showing a tie race! 45-45 for each candidate. They announced it yesterday on XM radio 130 - POTUS 08.

45-45 Joe those are the real numbers :)

Did I note it was a worthless Zogby interactive poll and the a-hole Frits Wentzel of Zogby doesn't even seem to have the guts to release as their website still says it will be released "early" Saturday.

45-45 Joe, I swear!

Mule Rider said...

I'm not on the far-right on any of these viewpoints, but I shudder about the day when we see the fruits of the following come to fruition...

1) The unabashed attempt to secularize anything and everything in America and take God out of every aspect of our life, to the point of humiliating and demoralizing people of faith as brainless toads who are intellectually substandard.

2) Demeaning the soveriegnty of this nation to the point that we think the only way we can truly have a melting pot of cultures and welcome people of all backgrounds and stripes is to hold down anyone of a Caucasian background whilst lifting up anyone else from any other background, whether they deserve it or not...because it's the politically correct thing to do.

3) Unmitigated and unregulated access to abortions. This just further leads this country to a devaluing of life.

4) A rampant and radical human rights, animal rights, and envirnomental agenda that neuters this country from being able to punish criminals, use livestock as a food source, or use its own natural resources for energy and other goods. The extreme liberal do not want to punish criminals, only "rehabilitate" them. They want the entire country eating a vegan diet. And, they want us to derive all of our power from solar and wind sources before it is economically feasible and are opposed to even judicious use of natural resources such as timber and fossil fuels.

5) Radial promotion of a gay/lesbian and even further "sexual agenda" to try and cram it down everyone's throats that whatever they do is "normal" and we shouldn't disagree with that nor should we have the right to teach and preach to our families and children that these are bad or "sinful" behaviors.

6) Pandering to extremists who want to exact harm and damage to this country, because we fear that if we sound aggressive to them, they will hate us more.


I could add a few more, but I'll leave it at that.

fred said...

Becky - that means a 1.2% shift to Dem is Rasmussen numbers in two weeks. The weeklies must be huge pro-dem numbers. I WANT THE WEEKLY AND DAILY NUMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DCM in FL said...

BILL P.

well played - like the freeway analogy.

keep 'em coming...

shadowguidex said...

"Let's just ignore Mulre Rider, his arguments are nonsensical. "


Just taking some practice swings in case I run into an intelligent conservative on here - but I'm now convinced that the only remaining intelligent conservatives are hiding, ashamed of how badly their theories have died. Seriously, when you believe wholeheartedly in an ideology for many many years, and the ideology ends up being proven completely incorrect, it's gotta be demoralizing. The social conservatives are ignorant morons, one and all. I guess the only ones left that might have the gumption to argue with me are the foreign policy neo-con conservatives. Anyone on here by that description have the temerity to argue?

fred said...

"Somewhere in America a conservative is lying"

I look forward to a country run for the people and by the people!

Becky Sharp said...

@Fred
Weeklies? you mean the state polls?

This also augers well for congressional races

Ed M. said...

A centrist? Really?

No, not really. The man goes by "mule rider" fer fucks sake. When he gets mad he sounds like every other jackass on a Free Republic thread. Those guys *aren't* centrists.

Centrists are idiots chasing a golden means fallacy that the media has adapted as it's de facto ideology but that guy isn't one of them.

markymark said...

See mule, you have basically outlined some pretty right wing points of view there, or at least shown a certain sense of the issues rfom a right wing world view. If you aren't right wing you are at least paranoid.

fred said...

Shadow-

Even George Will has abandoned this ticket. Bill Kristol and the true neo-cons that got us into Iraq are all they have left.

You want to se "dreating your own reality" go read Kristol's columns on Palin. Great comedy.

Mule Rider said...

I would devote a huge portion of that money saved from slashing the defense fund into building infrastructure and create jobs et al.

I would use some of it to pay down the national debt.

Increase funding to a national health care system too, if possible.

mark said...

every board has a mule rider, pollster.com has BOOMSHAK we have Mule Rider

maybe they are the same?

Bill P. said...

The introduction of 'God' into public life was an invention of the mid-twentieth century. That's reality, and reality has a liberal bias.

Equality and acceptance of multiple cultures is a uniquely American value and embodies the American spirit. That's reality, and reality has a liberal bias.

Freedom of choice has been upheld repeatedly by the Supreme Court. That's reality, and reality has a liberal bias.

Advocating for specific groups and causes is a Constitutional right, and no one can tell you otherwise. That's reality, and reality has a liberal bias.

Gays and lesbians deserve equal status with heterosexuals; there is no provision for 'special rights' for straight people. That's reality, and reality has a liberal bias.

Diplomacy first is the most sound foreign policy of all. That's reality, and reality has a liberal bias.

If your complaint about liberalism is that it provides too much freedom and too much acceptance, if your whine is that liberalism seeks solutions outside of war, if you moan that liberals are too ready to accept people for who they are, then I have no choice but to question your patriotism.

Mule Rider said...

Bill P.

Reality has an independent bias.

And you are a completely ignorant bastard.

GG said...

Last night Sea said "There's a huge story unfolding in Indiana." Anyone have a clue what story he's talking about?

shadowguidex said...

Mule-

All your bullet points there are social conservative talking points. You ARE a social conservative, and it's ok, you can admit it. You're not a centrist and not a moderate on social issues.

I'm not particularly liberal on social issues either, but I'm very liberal on foreign policy and economic issues. I'm not going to fall for the god awful conservative foreign and domestic policies just to avoid gay marriage. I also agree that PETA people are WAY too nuts to be taken seriously - but then again, most dems think the same way.

Becky Sharp said...

Mule Rider is head and shoulders above the CAPS LOCK brigade of knee-jerk Obama haters who usually post here

Bill P. said...

Mule Rider is a centrist who just happens to get his talking points from FOX and Rush.

Oh, and Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck hates America.

fred said...

No Becky, Rasmussen releases a six week rolling average of Party ID. Those ID numbers are a six week rolling average of 21,000 calls. To move a six week average the numbers on party ID last week must be about 6 times higher than the change (kinda) thus to move the average by 0.6% the real party ID in just last weeks calls (just LAST weeks) must have been about 3.6% higher than the actual released number last week. So add about 2.8% to dems for last week.

This is very rough, but the real numbers must be close. I want Rasmussen to release their weekly and daily Party ID numbers from each call.

Mule Rider said...

Thanks, Becky.

I realize I haven't been at my best today :( Sorry.

I just haven't been in the mood today for hearing a "Yay for liberals!" or "Reality has a liberal bias." chant.

Green-Guard said...

Just for the record... Mule rider, Greece (my country and a NATO ally of USA) and other European countries have developed and prospered under socialist (not communist) governments. It might be bad waiting in a line to get a surgery but it is better than not getting it cause you are not rich.

P.S Concerning China, communists and other far-lefties do not consider it a left-leaning state. Today's China has a lot more in common with fascist Italy than USSR and Cuba.

Mule Rider said...

Bill P.

You douche. I never watch Fox or listen to Rush. Nor do I watch Glenn Beck.

I don't watch cable TV news.

Wesley said...

Guys, chill on mule rider. At worst he's argumentative/devil's advocate.

Mule Rider said...

That makes you a liar.

shadowguidex said...

"I would devote a huge portion of that money saved from slashing the defense fund into building infrastructure and create jobs et al.

I would use some of it to pay down the national debt.

Increase funding to a national health care system too, if possible."


Mule - Social issues are never solved, and some advice - don't vote for candidates based on social issue, vote based on economic ones. Your economic viewpoints articulated above are Obama through and through.

Bill P. said...

Mule Rider -

Ah, name calling. That's what ALL reasonable centrists do when confronted with the truth. You, sir, are no centrist. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Hell, I respect you for taking a side - even though the side you've chosen is dead wrong.

fred said...

gg-

Sean is talking about the Obama IN ground game. It may take one of the reddest states in the union this year.

Trevor said...

Clinton ran 0.7% ahead of his average in PA in '96; Gore ran 3.7% ahead, and Kerry ran 5% ahead, so the double-digit leads in PA are plausible; if that trend were to continue, Obama might run 6-7% ahead of his national average there on a good day.

Bill P. said...

MR -

Nah. You don't watch them, you just repeat their lies.

DCM in FL said...

FRED

I commented much earlier today that Zogby called me today to 'confirm' the results of my online interactive poll submission.

That surprised me that they did the follow-up call.

But any 'idiot' can submit their pnline choices to Zogby.

It is not random at all. In fact, they are really subject to spamming & 'op chaos' types since the survey is not controlled.

the Zogby interactive model is deeply flawed. he tries to controlusing weighting - but he needs a model like Econ/YouGov that has better controls built in IMHO.

Even YouGov has finally gone back to an Obama national lead, so poor Zogby looks like the only phool out there since Battleground has belatedly 'corrected' their own flawed model after Nate called them on it.

NATE - a 538 'smackdown' is long overdue for Zogby's interactive polling.

also Scottie R. needs a bitchslap for his jiggerred model - which he is now finally admitting needs to return toward the consensus party ID of DEM +9 [+/-] like R2000 is employing. watch, by election eve RR will be closer to +9 than the new +6... and SURPRISE, his 'final' projection will be close to the actual margins after months of pushing the GOP narrative IMHO

MsLiaM said...

About the StarTribune - a couple people have referenced that the paper was considered to have a liberal bias in the 04 elections. That may be true, but the paper has changed owners, changed editors, and laid off half their staff in the past few years. I'm not saying that the current poll is not at all slanted, just that the paper is not the same as it was four years ago - so I don't think you can just assume a slant based on its record.

BTW, I usually enjoy reading this site and its comments, but today it is clearly suffering from lack of moderators...

Mule Rider said...

Thanks Wesley. That probably sums me up in a couple of words.

It might be bad waiting in a line to get a surgery but it is better than not getting it cause you are not rich.

To Green-Guard. That's a fallacy about our health care system. That people don't have care. We already DO have universal care. You can not be denied care in this country regardless of your financial status or whatever.

But there is an issue with the care provided and who shoulders the costs. In that regard, there is a problem.

But it is fallacious to act like people are denied a "surgery" because they aren't "rich" enough.

We have vast problems with our health care system, but if you have to have something done - except in those extreme cases a hospital or ER drops the ball - it will get done.

shadowguidex said...

"Nah. You don't watch them, you just repeat their lies."

He is a social conservative, and a centrist-liberal on foreign policy and domestic issues. I think I got him pegged now.

Are you Catholic, Mule?

Mule Rider said...

You're right. I'm not centrist. Not on economic issues. I'm probably left of center on a lot of things.

Tax code? Make it progressive as hell and tax the living shit out of the extreme upper-income brackets.

I won't detail my feelings on too many other points, but I'm far from the right-wing on economic issues. Far from it.

mark said...

gotta agree with green guard, many european countrie's quality of life is eons above ours, they all have amazing health care...

Seriously I spent a year in Denmark, it was mind blowing the standard of life there.

Everyone was also really happy. Barely any crime, healthy attractive people. Count me in.

Bill P. said...

shadowguidex-

Good call. And because of his deluded fantasy that he embodies the best of both ideologies, he smugly calls himself a centrist. Got it.

mark said...

oops. terrible spelling error there


:(

Bill P. said...

Johnny Mac now repeating the lie that he 'suspended my campaign' and is taking credit for the bailout deal.

What a loser douche McCain has become.

DCM in FL said...

FRED

another most excellent post by you analyzing how much the RR party ID #'s must have really been this week to move his #'s by 0.6 % in one week following a 6 week rolling average.

Scoot R. is a right-wing neo-con 'christian' GOPer hack trying to cover his busted ass now that his 'house effect' thumb on the scale polling bias has been revealed for what it really is...

shadowguidex said...

"To Green-Guard. That's a fallacy about our health care system. That people don't have care. We already DO have universal care. You can not be denied care in this country regardless of your financial status or whatever."

No, you can't be denied care if your life is in danger. I used to work as a programmer/analyst for a Collection Agency that specialized in Medical Debt. It is a shameful state that when someone has a heart attack or gets cancer and their insurance screws them over, they suddenly owe $95,000 dollars to the hospital and can't ever get out of debt. They get sued for garnishment, or a lean is put on their house. They are basically totally fucked over, all because they get sick.

Trust me, the medical insurance and collection system in America is slimy, shameful and pathetic. Believe me, I have seen the actual accounts, but because of HIPPA laws I can't really explain too many of them. We NEED national healthcare. Our system is a complete and utter disgrace. You should hear the shit, lies and greed, that you hear when you actually work in the industry, and how money hungry they are - they would fuck over ANYONE for a dime.