10.27.2008

Bradley Effect? Or Elephant Effect?

I have received quite a number of requests for comment on the article published by Republican consultant Bill Greener at Salon.com. The article purports to find evidence of a "Bradley Effect" in Senate and Gubernatorial Elections in involving black candidates in 2006.

So, I'll comment on it.

Problem #1: Greener cites data from four races: the Tennessee and Maryland senate races, and the Massachusetts and Ohio governor's races. Greene, however, ignores a fifth race, the Pennsylvania governor's race, in which a white Democrat, Ed Rendell, competed against a black Republican, Lynn Swann.

Rendell defeated Swann in this race. However, Rendell's margin of victory was no larger than that predicted by the polls (in fact, it was incrementally smaller). Greener completely ignores this race.

(There was actually a sixth race involving a black candidate, that being in Mississippi, where Trent Lott won re-election to the Senate over Erik Fleming. However, there was essentially no polling of this race, so it isn't useful to us.)

Problem #2: Greener cherry-picks his data in literally every race. He isn't even subtle about it. Here is a good example:

How about Tennessee, where black Democrat Harold Ford was up against white Republican Bob Corker for Republican Bill Frist's old U.S. Senate seat? Harold Ford did slightly better than Steele and Blackwell. The day before the election, he was within a point of Corker, 47 to 48 with 5 percent undecided, according to OnPoint Polling. On Nov. 7, Corker got 50.7 percent of the vote, Ford got 48 and an assortment of independents took 1.3 percent. Ford was able to pick up one out of every five undecided voters.
OnPoint was the only polling firm to show the Tennessee race within 1 point on the eve of the election. Meanwhile, Gallup showed a 3-point lead for Corker, Rasmussen showed a 4-point lead for Corker, SurveyUSA and Pollmetrix showed 5-point leads, and Mason-Dixon showed a 12-point lead. Corker eventually won by 2.7 points, smaller than the margin predicted by all firms but OnPoint.

A more comprehensive way to look at this question would be to compare the performance of the black candidates against a more comprehensive set of polling, such as the Real Clear Politics averages. Here is what such a comparison reveals:



On average, the black candidate received 44.8 percent of the vote, as compared to the 43.3 percent predicted by the polls. The white candidate received 52.2 percent of the vote, as compared to the 48.6 percent predicted by the polls. In looking at the actual versus predicted margins of victory, the black candidate overperformed his polling in Tennessee and Pennsylvania, and underperformed it in Massachusetts, Maryland and Ohio. Although the white candidates did perform a little better on balance, this is not very persuasive evidence given that we have only five data points to look at, and that polling in mid-term elections is generally fairly marginal. (Put more succinctly, the differences aren't statistically significant).

The two races where the black candidate did perform notably worse than their polling were in Ohio (Ken Blackwell) and Maryland (Michael Steele). Each of these candidates were Republicans. This leads us to...

Problem #3. The year 2006, as you may recall, was a very one for Republicans. Democratic candidates overperformed their poll in a significant majority of competitive races around the country.

In fact, there were other races going on at the same time in Maryland and Ohio, both of which involved two white candidates. In Maryland, there was also a race for Governor; the Democrat, Martin O'Malley, was projected by the RCP average to defeat the Republican, Robert Ehrlich, by 1.3 points. In fact, O'Malley won by 6.5 points. In Ohio, meanwhile, the Democratic candidate for Senate, Sherrod Brown, was projected by RCP to defeat the Republican, Mike DeWine, by 10.0 points. In fact, Brown won by 12.3 points.

So, it wasn't just black Republicans who were undeperforming their polls; it was white Republicans too (likewise with Rick Santorum in Pennsylvania): not a 'Bradley Effect' so much as an 'Elephant Effect'.

But it wouldn't please a Republican consultant to talk about that, now would it?

307 comments

Congratulations to President-Elect McCain!!! said...

Being first is GREAT NEWS!!! For John McCain!!!

Joe of Parma said...

lol McCain is going to lose

OneWingedAngel said...

Lynn Swann is black, not white.

Nate said...

nate, you have lynn swann as being white in the second paragraph. you might want to change that.

Elliot Tarabour said...

And Blackwell is white no matter what the color of his skin....

e.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

I think your argument depends on Lynn Swann being black...

John said...

This site rocks. Thanks for the social contribution your well-argued and intelligent use of data makes. I look at this site every day.

Matthew Jones

markymark said...

Are tehy still trying to cheer themselves up by hoping for a Bradley effect? Sheeesh.

One reason to hope for a convincing Obama victory is to finally lay the Bradley effect to bed. (And anyway if it does exist 1 or 2 points is not going to make the difference in this election)

Brad Kenney said...

Nate -- you're right as always, but these are Republicans, after all. Cherrypicking data (and even making it up outright) is part of the party platform.
That said, it's nice to see the absence of a Bradley Effect pointed out so starkly in such a, um, black and white manner.

dilguy said...

ABC/Washington Post

Virginia
O: 52
M: 44

polled 10/23-25

Joel said...

> The year 2006, as you may recall, was a very one for Republicans.

You accidentally the whole adjective.

Great analysis, as always...I'm kinda addicted to this site.

cora said...

I'm beginning to see the republican invoked Bradley effect
as legitimacy for an opressed minority who no longer needs to feel ashame of itself:

RACISTS AND PROUD

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

Might want to fix Problem 3, first sentence:
"was a very one for Republicans." I'm assuming "tough one?" Or something similar...

GaMeS said...

Off-topic, but this is something I noticed in yesterday's polling thread:

How many Texans are in our 538 viewing audience?

Speak up! I live in Denton, and it's pretty damn rare for me to see three different people mention my home town in ... well, anything. =)

As for Denton being "hip" -- it's not. If you hang out only around the universities, though, you'll have a nice warm cocoon of semi-hipness. Not quite "the streets are paved with pot," but definitely a nice vibe.

Not that I'd know -- too old to go get baked now, and Fry Street is gone, and I have to, like, work and stuff. Pffft! Never should have graduated -- that's selling out to The Man! =)

Dave-london said...

missing word competition!

the 2006 race was a very ---- one for the republicans.

I presume you meant to say good right?

The Guardian has an article on voter suppresion being such that AA doesnt get to vote in this year's election. link is below, thought you might want to shout at him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/27/african-american-voters-barack-obama

Barry said...

Nate
thanks again for all your hard work. Two things. I think you omitted a word. See "Problem #3. The year 2006, as you may recall, was a very ___________ one for Republicans." [the blank is mine]
secondly, as pointed out by others, Lynn Swann will likely be surprised to hear he is White

Section109 said...

Buck up, GOP. Our racist subversives screwing with the pollster means GREAT NEWS FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!

dilguy said...

Correction on that Virginia poll--it was apparently just the Post, not ABC. But, still 52-44.

Sorry for the error.

Matt said...

About the 2000 Maryland polls-- Dems won big in Maryland in 2006, but for some reason the polls didn't get the size of the win in any of the races. Maryland 2006 was very much a sore thumb for the pollsters in all the races, and I really haven't seen an explanation for it.

Sedi said...

I'm so sick of the Bradley Effect. People keep wanting to pretend that it's this huge factor when all of the evidence suggests otherwise. Much of it comes from hand-wringing Democrats, but the GOP and the media are also pleased to bring it up as well.

joel said...

I live and MD and Steele if anything had a reverse bradley effect and probably did better than a white republican would have.
He lost because he is a right winger in a liberal state. The GOP is holding on to the bradley effect as a last line of hope to McCain supporters. It doesn`t exist and probably never did.
If you don`t want to vote for Obama you don`t have to lie about it.
If anything i`m betting some AA are saying they are undecided as not to look racist against McCain.

Ian Monroe said...

I saw that article on Slate but decided not to read it since its premise sounded like BS.

Looking at only one year doesn't sound very academic.

MysticLaker said...

I am so mad about this 2001 tape. They promised me whitey, and all I get is a consitutional talk on the civil rights movement and school money redistribution. The best part is you listen to the whole thing, not just the edited version from drudge it's about school money.

Quadrivium said...

Nate, this site is great, but you really do need to proofread your posts a little better. (See above comments about the white Lynn Swann and the very year for Republicans.)

tkk13above said...

Nate, please proofread this (there are a couple of errors like saying Lynn Swan is white...probably a freudian slip) and then send it to Salon as a letter to the editor. They need to be exposed within their own magazine as well as here (though of course rest assured that you probably get way more readers than they do, especially among people interested in this topic.)

The Bradley Effect meme won't die in spite of your many posts on it and that recent academic study showing it's not there. I'm just worried it will keep getting talked about and then it will be used to justify some sort of election fraud with voting machines that works in McCain's favor. Not cool. Please keep spreading the word on the Bradley Effect. Write to Salon first.

gab04 said...

I still have concerns about Obama winning. If you give 1 to 2 points to the Bradley effect... as another poster stated... and then give another 1 to 2 points (conservatively) to voter suppression efforts, fixed voting machines, etc. and then you are looking at possible 4 points against Obama that are not under his control. And, that is a very different race.

Ian Monroe said...

@joel Yea on NPR this weekend they had a great program about the ground game in PA. One of the segments was about how unions were dealing with the not-at-all-hidden racism that they faced.

RocketRay said...

So, they're basing their hopes for McCain on racism within the voters? That's what they're talking about, right?

How pathetic.

John said...

Do we have more data points for how much white Democrats overperformed their polling vs. how much black Democrats overperformed their polling?

Nate, man, you're only goin' halfway here. If there were a significant difference in those, you'd be justified in calling it a Bradley effect. Yes, Democrats did overperform their polling two years ago, but this is the easiest thing in the world to correct for. The question you have to ask yourself is -- are you dedicated to the truth, or just to getting Obama elected?

Kelly said...

"The year 2006, as you may recall, was a very GREAT one for Republicans. "

Just like the continued non-existence of the Bradley Effect in GREAT NEWS for John McCain!

Thomas said...

The Bradley effect is just a front for Republican voter suppression.

When Obama's numbers come in lower than expected in key states, the GOP will simply say - hey, we told you there were alot of racists out there.

GaMeS said...

Now, for a comment relating to Nate's post:

Excellent work, as always. While everyone is susceptible to confirmation bias (i.e. talking yourself into believing you're right by focusing on evidence that confirms your beliefs while virtually ignoring evidence that contradicts it), it's crystal clear that the right-wing noise machine has specialized in a more refined, cherry-picking bias.

It's especially insidious because the author, fabricating a thin veneer of respectability, will cite a source for their facts ("Ford lost in 2006!" -- see Tennessee Chronic-Enabler Nov 2006), knowing full well that most people won't check the source because they trust the author not to being a lying, manipulative douchenozzle.

Which, of course, they are. The cited source almost invariably involves cherry-picked data (e.g. mentioning one supporting case from an article, but not the other three that contradict it) or quoting a completely unreliable source without mentioning its affiliation (e.g. "No, really! The Heritage Foundation is non-partisan!"). It's a complete lack of intellectual honesty, and it shows not only an appalling lack of ethics but also a sneering contempt for their audience.

So, again, thanks for doing what you do, Nate. =)

MysticLaker said...

new McCain ad...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gCzw2-5ZQu8

I normally don't post these because they are pretty boring but this one shows something interesting...Palin is obviously de-emphasized.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

John,

Are you dedicated to being a tool, or just to acting like one on this website?

Michael said...

Shocking news! Zogby state polls are in and they all look pretty normal, except maybe IN which looks more R than other recent polls. You can't even trust not being able to trust Z./mbw

MysticLaker said...

michael,

those state polls are phone polls, so they are more reliable (not great though from nate's rating), but nothing like the internet polls.

Me2U said...

You people are idiots. Look at the table. Swann's in the "black" column, as she is in his calculations that way. He made the mistake in the article that introduced the data, but the mistake wasn't repeated in the data, so his conclusion still stands.

Emma said...

I'm wondering if there might be a different kind of "Bradley effect" this year with sensible Republicans saying they are supporting their McCain and Palin but then going into the privacy of the voting booth and pulling the lever for Obama, because they know in their heads and hearts that it's the right thing to do.

ScottGA said...

I'm really tired of hearing about the Bradley effect. Given the dynamics of this race, does anyone think that people really are scared to let people know they aren't voting for Obama? I sure don't. There are thousands of other reasons for people to use to justify their vote for McCain, even if it was originally about race. The only place where there may be a slight Bradley effect would be among black voters since there is some racial pressure to vote for Obama. That's going to be a very very very small number though. More than outweighed by other factors.

thesmothete said...

Nate,

There is a word missing in this sentence:

"Problem #3. The year 2006, as you may recall, was a very [????] one for Republicans. Democratic candidates overperformed their poll in a significant majority of competitive races around the country."

HRD said...

Why is it that GOP seems desperate with hope that White Americans are closeted racists? They all seem to be pleased that such a thing would exist. I think that this "Bradley" obsession is turning people off.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

me2u,

Go kill yourself you relentless moron. I think it is pretty obvious that no one was challenging the conclusions, just the shoddy proofreading.

Like I said, go kill yourself.

Me2U said...

Really? I'll refer to your own quote from earlier. "I think your argument depends on Lynn Swann being black..."

deschoolingh said...

I agree with Nate. If anything, what those sparse data points seem to indicate is what has been speculated about in this election --- that undecided voters may break more strongly for McCain. This is much more plausable than that there are people actually lying to the pollsters.

*** Most interesting and important statistic out there: rasmussen's analysis that 48% are absolutely certain they will vote for Obama versus 39% for McCain. Given the 1% or so going with Barr or Nader, McCain literally has to win every single undecided AND persuadable voter out there to even make things close. Not to say that he couldn't win a lot of them, so things could be a little closer than predicted. ***

ScottGA said...

@games: I'm a Texan! Though I don't live there anymore. And no, Denton is not hip :) As I've driven by a few times going back to visit family, I was shocked how much it's grown over the years. It's gotta be getting a bit better. I can't talk though. I lived in Wichita Falls. Talk about not hip...

Juris said...

TYPO "competed against a white Republican, Lynn Swann.

Swann is black.

Jeremy said...

So DK/R2K is showing a tightening race (50-42). McCain had a good day yesterday with Obama polling "only" +5% and a great Obama day dropping.

Remains to be seen if this is the effect in other trackers but I wouldn't be surprised. Regardless, +5% is still in landslide territory and Obama has that massive early voting advantage in the bank so it's all probably too little too late for McCain.

Brother Wolf said...

Hey Nate

In the last congressional election and after the accusations of vote stealing some statistical mavericks were claiming they had built a model for detecting vote stealing. Have you read this stuff? Can you write a post on it?

Please?

Thanks in advance - love what you so I am an addict. Though I don't believe your neutral for one second. you obviously never read Howard Zen's book
You can;t be neutral on a moving train.
Shameless Commercialism

Me2U said...

You're right, though, instead of saying "you people" I should have just said "the user 'John McCain is my love child'".

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

Hey dipshit (me2u),

Exactly. Now go think about it a little bit before you kill yourself. Again, not challenging conclusions, just shitty proofreading.

I'm very serious when I say that I look forward with delight to your imminent death.

Fucking moron...

Tom said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Arun said...

After this election, a lot of people are going to owe any remaining hair on their heads or even their sanity to the excellent work on this blog!

Me2U said...

You're wrong, and a complete idiot. Please go castrate yourself so as to remove yourself from the gene pool. Thanks, troll!

MysticLaker said...

ant....hello ant?

bp said...

The winger buttheads are desperate. They will put anything out there to try to counter the landslide that is going to bury them - even with a rigged vote.

Go to: www.buttheadpolice.com

and VOTE for some of these buttheads, like Palin and McCain, to get asses stamped on their heads. LOL. Spread the word. Buttheads will roll!!!

james.chang said...

Hey guys, go easy on Nate with the Swann & "very one" typo errors; he probably didn't have his coffee yet when he posted.

Tom said...

The real "elephant" in the room is determining what team Nate Silver has predicted to win the World Series?? God, I hope it's not Tampa Bay (and not b/c I'm a Phillies fan).....

ScottGA said...

@jeremy, Yeah. I'm not too concerned yet about that +5. Need to see more from the other trackers to confirm. Also, Obama has his TV spot still. I wouldn't be surprised to see some narrowing of Obama's lead, but I think it's too late in the game now. Too many people are committed at this point and I think many of the undecided just aren't going to vote. If they aren't feeling strong about their candidate they are going to balk at the long lines on election day.

newsinOH said...

mystic laker,

Interesting thing about that "new" Mc ad: it's not new . . .

It's been aired in OH for over a week now. I think they're just trying to release anything right now to try to get some attention, somewhere, that's not about Palin's clothes or poll numbers.

Juris said...

ANOTHER TYPO The year 2006, as you may recall, was a very one for Republicans.

Missing the word "bad" as in "was a very bad one for Republicans".

justin32099 said...

I read this article earlier this morning, and thought it was absolute drivel, though I didn't have the polling data to show that it was poor data analysis, as well. One thing I've learned from this site is that when someone picks out one poll and compares it to actual results to prove a point (unless that's the only poll there is) they're usually cherry picking.

On the undecideds, I do think they're likely to favor McCain, but I say that mostly to try to temper my enthusiasm. I'm not sure what the undecided voters are waiting for...it's not like anything else really significant is expected to happen between now and Election Day. I think there's a significant chance that they break strongly for Obama, objectively (because of the anti-incumbent party effect mentioned in the Salon article), but perhaps they're just not paying any attention to the election, in which case they're more likely to stay home.

Steve_OH said...

@Me2U

"Really? I'll refer to your own quote from earlier. 'I think your argument depends on Lynn Swann being black...'"

That's something known as "sarcasm." Everyone knows that Lynn Swann is black.

By the way, everyone also knows that Lynn Swann is a he, not a she. There really haven't been that many female receivers in the NFL....

Seb said...

something I posted on Salon.com in respose to the Offending Article;

Even if you agree with the flawed premise of this article that all undecided voters are closet racists, one week out from the election the polls are still predicting an outright victory for Obama.

Using yesterdays data from electoral-vote.com, excluding states where Obama's total is less than 50% he still wins states such as Virginia, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Michigan and Ohio to accumulate a total of 310 electoral votes. If you use even stricter criteria and only include states where Obama is over 50% and the margin between him and McCain is over 5%, he still wins 306.

Forget the Bradley effect. It's been debunked many times, even by Bradley's own poster. It would be more accurate to talk about the Obama effect as, with the notable exception of New Hampshire, Obama consistently won the primaries by a greater margin than the polls had previously predicted. The New Hampshire result can best be attributed to a combination of a late surge for Hillary after her human moment in the diner, and independents deciding to vote in the Republican primary where the race was relatively close as opposed to voting in a race the pollsters had declared all but over.

If on November 4th John McCain wins the election despite the polls consistently showing wide margins for Obama the only reasonable conclusion to draw will be that the election was fixed, and that the United States will have been the subject of a coup. If this should come to pass, as an Englishman living in France, I am sure that both of my governments will be happy to offer political asylum to any US citizen seeking it

John R said...

Having been in California when Mayor Bradley lost his bid for governor, I recall the election very clearly. Part of what gets forgotten was the fact that also on the ballot was a tough gun control measure. There was a very strong effort against this and voter turn out higher than expected. Race did play a negative part in the election. The issue with wrong estimates on Bradley's exit poll numbers had more to do with conservatives pro-gun voters from rural northern California counties turning out in huge numbers, something they did not do in most previous elections. Exit poll models failed to take into account this increase. These voters were also not incline to support a black candidate - but probably would not have been motivated to actually vote this way. If the gun measure had not been on the ballot, Bradley would most likely have won in a close vote.

PorridgeGun said...

What effect did the B-hoax story have?


The reason I ask is that there was basically no retraction of this in the right-wing media. I wonder how many people out there now have it set in their heads as "fact?" Sunday's sample shows, just like with the Republican smear of the day two weeks ago before the debate (can't even remember what it was now), an increase in the proportion of Republicans supporting McCain and a drop in the proportion of independents showing Obama -- neither of which was hinted at even 48 hours ago.







I touched on this yesterday. Apparently it had no negative effect on McCain's numbers, which is quite disturbing considering what effect it would undoubtedly have had on Obama's numbers, if the story were true or had been attributed to his camapaign. I mean, could you imagine how bad the Obama campaign would be made to look in the MSM if one of his volunteers had pulled a stunt like this? It would be blown up to national scandal proportions.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

Oh me2u,

Does your mother know you are on the internets again? I'm going to have to sit her down for a long chat, and explain that you can't use the big-boy keyboard just yet.

Work on your reading comprehension, because it's in desperate need of work.

Then, once you can appreciate what your social and intellectual superiors are writing, go kill yourself.

PS -- Give me a call when you hit puberty, because I would be happy to sit you down and explain why everybody is laughing at you, always.

slicknickshady said...

When do the first polls get released today besides the zogby that was released at 1:00 AM and the PA morning call that was released last night?

I need my poll fix before class. :)

Also, Any idea when Selzer will put out another poll?

slicknickshady said...

SurveyUSA

Missouri

Obama 48
Mccain 48

Antmatic said...

Rasmussen
National
O-51
M-46

Arizona
M-51
O-46

California
O-61
M-34

slicknickshady said...

Don't like that Rasmussen number.

takestock said...

Now how is it possible that the AZ and National Rasmussen numbers are the same?!?

Antmatic said...

Hotline
O-50
M-42
Unchanged

Again, I will be worried when Obama starts getting to 49 or 48 in these polls. Undecideds moving to McCain when Obama has 51 or 52 % of the vote means nothing.

CommieChemist said...

PorridgeGun said...
What effect did the B-hoax story have?


My opinion that just bringing up the "Scary Black Man" frightened away some of the tenuous support Obama had with those who were edging toward being able to place their economic concerns over their cultural fears. It was a winner for the right because McKlan was not tied to incitement of this behavior by the MSM.

Sam said...

As much as I hate the Republican spin machine, I think this cherry picking is indicative of a broader "journalistic" trend that keeps getting worse. Throughout the primaries and the general, it seems like so much of the media is more interested in throwing out provocative headlines, then cherry picking the data to selectively support those assertions, rather than actually looking at the data and providing an accurate picture of what's going on in reality.

Oh, and what's up with the proofreading police here Nate? As someone who works in communications, I think you're doing great. I'd like to see any one of these critics churn out the volume of content with the turnaround you're up against and not have a few typos. Sheesh.

takestock said...

Oops, I mean how is AZ that close and Obama only up 5 nationally?

Antmatic said...

Have you guys seen the Zogby state polls this morning?

Christopher said...

So, is the consensus that we will settle into about a 5 or 6 point lead in the end? That seems to make sense. 8-10 points is just a monumental landslide.

I think a 4-5 point national popular vote margin in the end feels realistic. That should still account for an easy 325+ type of electoral college win.

Is it too early for next week's predictions?

slicknickshady said...

at least rassmussen stays consistant with Obama between 50-52and Mccain between 44-46.

MysticLaker said...

But there is a consistent theme that every tracker had. Last Thursday/Friday had huge Obama days roll off almost every tracked. McCain polled better on Sunday....

My prediction for this week: +5 = + 7 average till wed. Bounce on Friday post advertisting. To +8, back to +5/6 by next monday.

I still like my numbe from a few weeks ago. obama +5 average going into election day.

Antmatic said...

Also, Obama putting up a 6 in California and being up 5 nationally in Rasmussen doesn't seem to pass muster. State polls out so far today are extremely favorable to Obama, yet two of the 3 national polls (Rasmussen, DKos) are showing some tightening.

Jason said...

Nate's omission of words is GREAT NEWS! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!

slicknickshady said...

I think Obama will win on the low end 286 electoral votes with the high end being 375 electoral votes.

kittles93 said...

The polls are going to tighten for a variety of reasons.

Keep your eye on the state polls.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

Slicknickshady,

Sign up for the text message alert and let 538 chase you wherever you go.

You talk to your lady friend yet?

CommieChemist said...

Too bad there isn't one more debate. Obama always seemed to get a bump when he was placed side-by-side with McCain.

dc sox fan said...

What's with all the little insults? When did this board turn into a high school facebook page? If people want snide little quips, they can find them on Politico's comment page...mccain's love child and me2u need to STFU and hit the road...

Real Joe said...

antmatic said...
Rasmussen
National
O-51
M-46

Arizona
M-51
O-46

California
O-61
M-34


McCain Surge !!!!

Christopher said...

One other thing to consider is that these really late deciders are very soft support. What are the chances that they turn out? Obama's support is probably rock-solid up to about 47. McCain's is probably rock-solid up until about 42. It's that last 10% that gets wishy washy. But, if they simply don't turn out, or half turn out and split equally. Then it would be 53 to 47. Seems about right. Take away one each for third parties: 52-46.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

dc sox fan,

Go fuck yourself. I'm still missing your contribution to the nonexistence of the Bradley Effect...

Joseph said...

POLLS

DKos:

O 50
M 42


Zogby:

O 50
M 45


Zimmerman - AZ:

O 42
M 44

Jeremy said...

takestock - the nat'l numbers are trackers, the state numbers are polls taken that day.

State polls tend to leg behind nat'l polls for a few days.

slicknickshady said...

Have not talked to her yet. She's from new york and she sent in her absentee ballot according to her facebook page. I won't ask her who she voted for because really Obama is going to take New York easily either way. lol.

Rick said...

I think when the pundits look back and analyze this past election they'll cite the new "Palin Effect". Rather than racists that will claim to vote for an AA candidate to seem politically correct, it'll be registered Republicans who'll claim to support the party but won't be able to pull the lever and give power to such a dimwit. Thus Obama will overperform his polls.

And that's GREAT NEWS FOR JOHN McCAIN!!!!!!

newsinOH said...

More oddities from the campaign trail. Both candidates will be in OH today. Mc is in Cleveland; O in Canton, about an hour plus south of Cleveland. Mc has zero chance of carrying Cuyahoga County. Like holding a rally in NYC or SF zero.

Canton, on the other hand, is conservative Dem, LOTS of swing voters, with a geographical pull into slightly redder areas.

Interesting choices of stops . . .

takestock said...

Ras AZ was M+21 on 9/29, just to put Obama's gains in perspective. It appears Obama has locked up CO, NM and probably NV if AZ is now in play.

CW said...

Lynn Swann cleverly disguised his whiteness for years. He certainly had me and all of Pittsburgh fooled. Any plans on fixing this massive error?

Antmatic said...

About state polls "lagging" national polls, most of these state polls out today were in the field on Saturday and Sunday, so they should be showing results that are correlated to national polls out today.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

News,

Any thoughts on why Cleveland? Is he trying to rally volunteers, Repub operatives?

Or is his campaign staff really just that clueless, and so eager for a 2-5k crowd that they are torpedoing any useful deployments?

slicknickshady said...

Oh no...i'm turning into a concern troll. lol.

calm down Nick.

GaSF said...

Nate, excellent comentary. Also, one more point: Greener noted that undecideds will break for McCain so Obama needs to have at least 50% of the vote, which he doesn't have in key states like Ohio and Florida. He fails to point out that Ohio and Florida become irrelevant if Obama wins the Kerry states plus IA and VA, all states where he is consistently polling greater than 50% (excepting Mason Dixon in VA and Sesquehanna in PA).

Antmatic said...

It will be interesting to see Pew's number tomorrow. We will likely see tightening, but how much?

fred said...

Nate-

Lots of typos iin this post.

Lynn Swann is black. Please proof the rest.

SHERWICK said...

Ladies and Gentlemen, may I point you at the Georgia and North Carolina early voter numbers here: http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html

These do NOT look good for McCain at all.

PorridgeGun said...

I'm tellin ya, these "natiional" pollsters are at the capers. They offer no explanation as to why Obama has dropped off in the last few days. I haven't seen or heard a single negative headline connected to Obama. Obama may still be over 50% in Ras, but that's McCrypt's biggest gain in fuck knows how long??? It doesn't make any sense, his camapign is imploding and the GOP is panicking.

justin32099 said...

"Greener noted that undecideds will break for McCain so Obama needs to have at least 50% of the vote, which he doesn't have in key states like Ohio and Florida."

I noticed this. Based on the current situation, he's arguing that Obama supporters should be worried about getting to 350 EVs, not about winning the election.

john_appel said...

Nate,

As a Maryland resident, and at the time a registered Republican for 24 years, let me be very clear: Michael Steele's defeat had everything to do with him being a Republican, and very little (if anything) to do with his race. In fact, there was a huge effort to obfuscate Steele's party affiliation. None of his ads mentioned that he was a Republican, and there was a well-documented disinformation campaign to make voters think he was actually a Democrat.

There was some discussion in the local press about the disparity in the polls vs. his performance, but IIRC the consensus was "bad polling".

Real Joe said...



Sen. Larry Pressler(R) votes for Obama

slicknickshady said...

I'm really nervous about the 6:00 polls.


At 6:00 p.m. Eastern, the latest numbers from Colorado, Florida, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, and Virginia will be released. Demographic crosstabs for all state polling are available for Premium Members. Learn More.

Mike said...

My gut is that any racism to be found in this election, will be found in the current crop of undecideds.

It's my unsubstantiated hunch that the undecided vote will break in McCain's favor. Instead of telling pollsters (even if it is fully automated and anonymous, paranoia kicks in) that they plan on voting McCain, a certain number will proclaim to be undecided.

Of course, my hunch also says that a certain percentage of that vote is in the camp that they are leaning toward Obama because of his policies but aren't giving him their full support because he's black and are just waiting to see if something happens that will let them justify going to McCain. But, if nothing does, they'll probably go Obama.

But, all this seems to be irrelevent because a) Obama is leading in key states by amounts beyond the undecided vote, and b) I still believe that AAs, first-time voters, and young voters are being severely underrepresented in polls to the tune of 2-3%.

My hunch is rather opinionated, it seems.

Juris said...

@Christopher: Take a look at the SuperTracker. Note the yellow line. That's intended to be a more realistic projection of future than the red line, since it adjusts for regression or closing of the margin between now and election day.

GaMeS said...

John said...

Do we have more data points for how much white Democrats overperformed their polling vs. how much black Democrats overperformed their polling?

Nate, man, you're only goin' halfway here. If there were a significant difference in those, you'd be justified in calling it a Bradley effect. Yes, Democrats did overperform their polling two years ago, but this is the easiest thing in the world to correct for. The question you have to ask yourself is -- are you dedicated to the truth, or just to getting Obama elected?



How about you get off your lazy ass and do some calculations before your accuse Nate of slanting his analysis?

Oh, what the hell, I'll save you the trouble:

I put Nate's data (the black v. white contests and white v. white contests mentioned above) into my fun little stats program, and here are the resulting coefficients when I regress on the net change (RCP to actual vote):

Republican...-2.63 (.994)*
Black...........-.967 (1.07)
constant......1.48 (.804)

Adj. R-squared: 0.3057

The asterisk means that "Republican" is statistically significant at the .05 level. As you can see, the candidate being black has no statistically significant effect in this sample (in fact, the standard error is bigger than the coefficient!), and the coefficient is much smaller than that for being Republican, anyway.



So there. =)

Real Joe said...

slicknickshady said...
I'm really nervous about the 6:00 polls.


drink kool aid

LOL

fred said...

Obama piucks up another repub. Larry Pressier, former repub senator from SD.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14963.html

antidense said...

So the Bradley effect only applies to Black Republicans? lol.

eve said...

I am moving from hating to hearing about the damn B-effect to not minding quite so much since I'm hearing more often that it doesn't exist. Even Pat Buchanan argued yesterday on McLaughlin that it doesn't exist. As did Eleanor Cliff.

Thanks for the analysis of this article, Nate. I'm disappointed that Salon used it.

Will we have to hear about the B-effect after Obama wins?



(Games, I live in Texas)

newsinOH said...

love child,

I have absolutely no idea why Mc would come to Cleveland. None. The volunteer staff here is sparse. The "big" office is literally a little shithole under a gun shop staffed by two old men: one from Arkansas and the other from another country (which country escapes me at the moment).

I doubt that they could get 2-5k to see him here, especially at 9 am. His supporters would have to trek in from at least an hour away. Just no clue.

Supposedly, it's all about promoting business strategies but, consistent with his impeccable timing throughout this campaign, one of the largest area employers and banks, National City, was bought out last week by PNC from Pitt (in a deal supposedly spearheaded by the Fed to avoid a collapse). The loss of jobs here from that one closing is dominating discussion so, frankly, there aren't that many business types in the mood to meet with Mc in this highly Dem town.

The only odd thing about O's choice of venue is that it will be an inside event so his crowd will be limited. I think this could be merely to allow superb media access to his "closing argument" speech. People were lined up to get in by 9 this am even though doors don't open until 10:30 with O scheduled to land in the area at noon.

fred said...

It actually makes sense that a Bradley Effect might occue for black republicans. The racists are not democrats, they are republicans.

Real Joe said...



Des Moines Register Endorses Barack Obama

BrianFromRhodeIsland said...

In fairness I don't think McCain should be penalized for what some nut (B-girl) did UNLESS we can prove that his campaign pushed the story to the media.

PorridgeGun said...

Obama needs to create some noise. I reckon today would've been perfect for a significant endorsment, presumably from Chuck Hagel. It's time for him to show some backbone. After Powell, he basically has no excuse for sitting on the fence.


In the final week I don't think conventional campaigning moves any numbers. McCain is gonna attempt to close in the gap in the national trackers by manufacturing distractions. That's why Obama heeds to preempt any noise created by the McCain camapaign.

Kathy said...

I think the Bradley Effect discussions are the Republican's way of creating a narrative to explain away a stolen election. If the electronic voting is compromised (which I fear is a real possibility) then they have the MEANS to overthrow an election. But without a narrative to explain why the polling was so off base, the plan is imperfect. By raising doubts about voters and polling, the cover story is being created now.

Without verifiable paper trail, or independent analysis of voting machines, software and processes, all our polls, work on campaign finance, emails and blogs and VOTES don't really matter for much. I am very afraid that this election will be tampered with.

PS. I've lived in Denton... it's really not cool, and now reside in Austin, it is.

slicknickshady said...

Ant, Are you nervous about the 6 PM Rassmussen polls tonight? Care for any predictions ant?

Real Joe said...



From Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, and Carrie Dann
*** Obama crosses 270:


http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/27/1596444.aspx

kittles93 said...

I get the feeling it is going to be a long eight days on this board.

My prediction is the final trackers will be in the 51-48 or 51-47 range.

It comes down to GOTV.

If Obama's GOTV is as good as his campaign believes it is, he will win.

In some ways, a tightening should help his GOTV drive, especially with young people.

fred said...

Obama wins landslide in endorsements over the weekend.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003877935

"The Obama lead in editorial endorsements this year turned into a landslide, even a rout today, as dozens of additiional papers backed him, compared to the relative handful for McCain.

Two more major papers that had backed Bush in 2004--the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and Providence Journal--came out for Obama, joining at least 35 others who had done the same thing already.

In another embarrassment for McCain, the Indianapolis Star, which also supported Bush in 2004, revealed that it would not endorse this year. At least two other Bush 2004 papers, the Ann Arbor (Mich.) News and the Fredericksburg Free-Lance Star, took the same route.

Another paper just now backing Obama: The Times-Picayune of New Orleans, which made no endorsement in 2004. He also earned the nod from the Financial Times and the Star-Ledger of Newark, N.J.

Obama still leads by almost 3-1 in all editorial endorsements. Updated with the latest from today his lead stands at 180 to 75. "

PorridgeGun said...

Thank fuck for state polling.

Juris said...

@Brianfrom RI: It's been well documented that McCain operatives pumped the story hard to the press in W. PA. They bear some responsibility for it.

someperson718 said...

Nate is on the front Page of Huffpo with his article giving advice to McCain. I don't mind whatsoever but I know it is going to piss some of you off.

Mike said...

Nate, I've heard of a polling/voting discrepancy that sounds like a generalization of the Bradley Effect and I'd be interested in your take on it. The idea is that people are reluctant to admit to a preference they perceive as going against their perception of their community norms. So, a person in a white racist community won't admit they like the black candidate, while the person in a progressive community won't admit if they refuse to vote for a black candidate. This may be too prey to differing social norms and people's perceptions of them to be useful or measurable, but it sounds believable. What do you think? Sorry if you've addressed this already. I just found your terrific site and haven't read all that's here.

joel said...

These polls will keep the media happy with the talk of a close race. I cannot fathom any way for McCain to win the electoral college so everyone needs to relax. A landslide would be nice but as long as Obama gets to 270 that`s all that matters.
If the stock market has another bad week this will not help McCain.
After one more week everyone can relax.

spencer said...

Seriously, Nate, don't be in such a hurry to post these things. Put in a few extra minutes to edit them first. True, you're not as bad about this as, say, Megan McArdle, but that's setting the bar pretty low anyway.

John McCain is my Love Child! said...

News,

I wish I hadn't settled my relatively large short term debt with National City two months ago. If they had gone under, I would have been free! That said, the joke in my household is how long till we pull our savings out of Nat City and plug them into the mattress...

newsinOH said...

BrianFromRhodeIsland said...

In fairness I don't think McCain should be penalized for what some nut (B-girl) did UNLESS we can prove that his campaign pushed the story to the media.


Let the penalizing begin, then:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/239900.php

someperson718 said...

Obama's high end is 411 (if he somehow got AZ and WV). His low end is 286, I agree.

Todd Dugdale said...

The Elephant Effect! Love it.

I am getting rather tired of people talking about how "reliable" Republican turnout is, when 2006 showed that it isn't.

2000 had the whole anti-Clinton bloodlust going for it, and the base turned out.

2004 was a jingoistic-fevered nightmare in an amped-up environment; Iraq was still relatively popular and Republicans still had credibility. The base turned out.

2006 saw reduced turnout among the Republican base, even though the Republicans once again bragged about their voters "showing up like clockwork".

Now that base is smaller, less enthusiastic, with a dismal ground game and a campaign driven by smears that have uniformly failed to gain traction. Schisms are appearing, Republicans behave as if Bush has leprosy, and Republican credibility is at it's lowest point in decades.

And we still think that the Republican base will show up at the polls like clockwork.

If the GOP has some massive vote-stealing mechanism, why didn't they employ it in 2006?

BrianFromRhodeIsland said...

Juris:

If that is the case, I don't think this story is over, just stalled being that it blew up on Friday. Besides, she goes to court on Thursday which will bring new crap to light.

PorridgeGun said...

What's the bet Battleground and IBD/TIPP show McCain miraculously in the lead in the next couple of days?



And who could forget the AP/Dunkin' Donuts office poll. Double Digits, Baby!

Juris said...

If you parse the trackers, in particular R2000-DKos and Rasmussen, McCain had a heckuva good polling day on Sunday. It takes a lot for Rasmussen to shift 3 points in a day.

This could signal a shift in momentum at national level.

jthargett said...

Not to mention Blackwell was plagued by corruption scandals. He never had a chance in that race.

slicknickshady said...

Are you serious Juris?

dilguy said...

GWU/Battleground

O: 49
M: 46

unchanged from Friday

Zechaplunga said...

What I don't understand about the Bradley Effect concerns is why voters would feel they had to lie. There are - pace the Huffington Post - what are widely considered respectable reasons for voting McCain. If people are going to vote against Obama because he's black, why would they tell a pollster they was voting for Obama - rather than just say they were voting for McCain, on grounds of experience, say, or foreign policy reasons etc.?

Where some version of the Bradley Effect seems quite likely is among elderly Jewish voters in Florida. Most of them will have been lifelong Democrats, and might well feel some shame at admitting to planning to vote Republican. But when they get in the booth, it's possible that many will vote McCain out of fear of Rev. Wright, Hamas, even that 'Hussein'.

As I mentioned the other day, this sort of scenario is despairingly described by Philip Roth in Exit Ghost - and he usually has X-ray vision into human beings' hidden fears and emotions.

slicknickshady said...

There has not been a shift in mo juris.

Matt said...

Siena poll - NY...

O: 62
M: 31

NY

Time to stop polling here. ;-)

PA John said...

Reality check time:

Daily trackers comparison - last Monday/Today

R2000/Kos: O+8/O+8
Rasmussen: O+4/O+5
Hotline: O+5/O+8
Zogby: O+6/O+5

Avg. Difference: O +0.75

slicknickshady said...

Thanks PA John. I needed that. :)

BrianFromRhodeIsland said...

If people lie in polls, it's Republicans being Republicans because they think it's the thing to do to screw up the media. But I don't think it's enough to really make a huge difference.

CommieChemist said...

What was the deal with this cross border raid into Syria? Is the timing a coincidence or was this an attempt to change the subject by putting foreign issues back into the limelight so that McCrusty could make pronouncements on the issue?

The Right will be pulling out all of the stops from now 'til election day. They are trying to hit Obama from every angle that they can. I haven't seen any 'internal terror' threat headlines yet...look for something along those lines.

Vote and GOTV!

Raising one eyebrow said...

@john_appel-

You beat me to it. I was also going to mention the misinformation campaign in PG County, MD that tried to create the impression that Michael Steele was a Democrat. That was ridiculous.

Anyone here from South Dakota? Is Larry Pressler's endorsement likely to make a splash?

Real Joe said...

pa john said...
Reality check time:

Daily trackers comparison - last Monday/Today

R2000/Kos: O+8/O+8
Rasmussen: O+4/O+5
Hotline: O+5/O+8
Zogby: O+6/O+5

Avg. Difference: O +0.75



McCain Surge !!!

jackleone said...

The short discussion of where the candidates are campaigning (M in Cleveland, O in Canton) made me think of a campaigning question. Where is opponent support softer?

Take this idealized scenario: There are 2 districts with equal populations. Their 'natural' levels of support have you up 65-35 in one and down 35-65 in the other. You have the time and resources to only go after 1 district. Where do you go? In other words, is it easier to get your favorable district to, say, 70-30 or get your weak district loss down 40-60?

I can see arguments for either choice.

LizandLou said...

A couple of queries

- Why should there be a tightening of the national polls? What is either side doing to cause this?

- Why is it assumed that undecideds will vote McCain in large numbers

I'm thinking these things are based on recent history - and this election is different to any I have seen in many many years. The last time I remember this amount of interest/activity was in 1960

PorridgeGun said...

It's NUTS, Ras has McCain leading by the same margin in his home state as Obama is leading McCain nationally.

slicknickshady said...

Gained 1 in Rasmussen.
No Change in R2000/Kos
Gained 3 in Hotline
Lost 1 in Zogby

I can live with that.

kittles93 said...

This could simply be a return to pre-Powell endorsement levels - if there was indeed a Powell bounce.

Ryan said...

I believe that historically (but someone correct me if I'm wrong), last minute undecided voters usually break overwhelmingly for the candidate of the non-incumbent party. However, there have been exceptions to this-- in 2004 they broke more towards Bush. I remember more than a few people predicting that Kerry would eke out a win *because* the undecideds would put him over the top even though Bush was ahead in most of the polls by a point or two, but obviously that didn't happen.

fred said...

Obama needs to line up more endorsements, maybe he has them in the infomercial.

Can Powell get out and campaign just a little?

newsinOH said...

jackleone:

Agreed that, given the choice of strengthening soft support or winning additional support, it's a difficult call.

Mc is following a "speak to deaf ears" tactic here in Cleveland. He would have been far better off doing the same shtick in Columbus where his support is weakening rather than completely nonexistent. Cleveland had something like high 80% support for Kerry . . . Columbus was mid-50's. But, then again, he just spent a bunch of time in Iowa.

Canton, on the other hand, is a rather brilliant move. It's been very hard hit with plant closures and is close to many other little towns also hit by closures. It's voted for the winner in every election in recent memory. Stops there can do some real good.

Zechaplunga said...

ryan -

I think in recent elections undecided support has tended to break for whoever's behind in the polls, not for the incumbent.

newsinOH said...

Another FWIW: A live Cleveland talk show has made no mention of Mc's visit here this AM. How pathetic that you can't even beat out discussion of the Browns, Buckeyes and fashion to get a passing mention?

Andrew said...

Obama's numbers always dip over the weekend, then rebound during the week.

If you haven't noticed this, you haven't been paying close attention to the trackers over the last month or so.

slicknickshady said...

I have noticed that Andrew. I'm just afraid that trend is going to stop. I can't beleive i'm turning into a concern troll. lol.

Real Joe said...

there may be a surprise on election night

get ready everybody

Dan Hamilton said...

Nate,

I just don't see this as a Bradley Effect article. I thought the Bradley effect was people lying to pollsters skewing the results. This effect seems to be undecideds breaking (yes, I know they are lying about being undecided). You seemed to suggest the same in one of your posts on the bradley effect:

----From 538.com:
It’s also clear that there were some patterns in the way that undecided white voters behaved. Number one, a majority of them — probably somewhere between 60 and 65 percent — wound up voting for Clinton. This is perhaps not so remarkable, considering that about 60 percent of white voters in the primaries voted for Clinton period. But, this figure was higher in regions like the Appalachians, and among groups like Catholics, and lower in places where you had a lot of WASPy, educated voters. So whether or not you label this a Bradley Effect, I don’t know — but the behavior of undecided voters has been predictable to a certain extent.

Now, it does not necessarily follow that the patterns exhibited by undecided voters in the primaries will match those in the general election. But based both on my research and on what I’ve been hearing from people on the ground, it’s apparent that the public polling in general is not terrific, and that if we have an instinct about where the polls are more likely to come in high or low, we probably ought to follow it.
-----
The 538.com prediction model was updated to account for this:

-----From 538.com:
Take a state like West Virginia, where the polling has been reasonably close but where there are also high numbers of undecided voters. Those undecideds aren’t the type of undecideds who are liable to side with Barack Obama when pushed to a decision, and so the state is not quite as promising for him as it looks on paper. There are also a fairly high number of undecideds in Ohio, a state where we think the undecided vote is liable to break slightly for John McCain. On the other hand, a state like Virginia, where Obama overperformed his polls during the primaries and where some polling has had a relatively generous (and probably false) number of African-American votes going to John McCain, might be just a smidgen stronger for Obama than it appears.
-----

I do take your point about the evidence he uses, many of those races are flawed. But what if he is right - what if the undecideds in the battlegrounds break to McCain? I think Obama could be in trouble. I did a back of the envelope analysis on my blog Late Night Pundit

slicknickshady said...

lol at real joe.

The worst case scenerio is Obamaa 286 Electoral Votes.

PorridgeGun said...

Why should there be a tightening of the national polls? What is either side doing to cause this?


The simplest answer is, whoever these 2-5% being polled natioanlly are a bunch of friggin' morons.


I know Nate's focus is primarily on state polling, but even he must be scratching his head at ANY gains for McCain in the national trackers. Like I said yesterday, whenever "distractions" and "noise" dominate the news cycle, McCain always benefits. It doesn't matter if it's negative, as long as it's not especially harmful like "the fundamentals of the economy are strong" type gaffes. Last week following the £rd debate, Troopergate, Letterman, SNL, McCain inexplicably made gains, then the Powell endorsement began to move Obama's numbers up again.

Eric said...

Perhaps being a Republican African-American is such an oxymoron that if it's true, one has to be a little peculiar. Some of my favorite pols, including Obama among others are African-American.

That said, I detest Ken Blackwell and Michael Steele. They are two fo the most dislikable people you'll ever see in politics. It's not a surprise that in 2006, they got romped in the election. If anyonoe doesn't know the 2 of them, i'll put it this way, in the entire universe of politicians, of which I know 100s, I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of anyone I like less than either of them.

Voice of the Midwest said...

My wish list for November 5 trips to the political graveyard:

1. The term "gamechanger".
2. The phrase/theory of "the Bradley Effect".
3. The Viet Nam War.
4. The post Viet Nam War concept called "The Culture War".
5. The phrase "My friends".

Gamechanger is a word used by people desperate for a horse race where a horse race doesn't exist.

"The Bradley Effect" is a 26 year old theory that has not truly proven itself out for even that 1982 election (see GOP absentee ballot effort in CA for that year and you'll know the BE is wrong).
It also may be good cover, as someone opined earlier, for GOP tricks in 2008.

The Viet Nam War has been fought every four years in our electoral politics since 1976. As well, we have a culture war of hippies and straights in the Baby Boomer gen that stays with us to this day. Let them both end.

John McCain will also never have to say, "My friends". Please.

Juris said...

Agreed, the state polls currently posted on RCP today basically confirm preexisting percentages, if anything very marginally in Obama's favor. (Compare the percentages in those polls with the 538 projections and you'll see this.)

Davy said...

@ Joel

"You accidentally the whole adjective"

Did you leave out the verb on purpose. Cause that would be really funny. Well to a grammar geek anyway.

OTF said...

Early voting numbers:

GA
11% more people voted early 1.056,000 than voted early in all of 2004 and there is a week still left. AA are still holding at 35%. If AA hold above 30% of voters and vote at rate according to polls Obama 95%, Obama can win GA by getting 30-33% of white vote.

NC
3% more people voted early thus far than all of 2004. AA still holding at 28% of voters

CO
697,000 early voters 38.6%D, 37.9%R
Last updated voter registration files show Repub advnatge reduced to 11,400 from 177,000 in 2004. In septmeber to close advantge reduced from 78,000 to 11,400...big last month for dems in registrations. CO is looking good for Obama!

STepper said...

Real Joe said...
there may be a surprise on election night

get ready everybody


Is that when you're going to come out of the closet and tell us you're a plant for the Obama/Biden campaign?

someperson718 said...

Dems panick so damn much it's pathetic. Calm down and get to work, that way you won't have to worry so darn much.

UppityTexan said...

@games

Check out my handle. There are a few of us tx who cant get enough of 538.

I'm one of those that does not have the good sense to leave...But, I'm up here in Frisco, although I did do my post-grad work in Denton. Only takes me 20 minutes to get out there with the tollway touching 380.

From firsthand experience, Denton = not "hip".

**To the post-there is no currenet evidence that the bradley effect exists. I am more inclined to consider this elephant effect given the wrong track numbers, bush's approval rate and the current mood against the republican party.

Aidan MT4 said...

Rasmussen AZ poll is good, considering that the pollster has a 1-2 point Rep tilt. (Insert sound of me patting myself on the back for being polled on Saturday and being part of the good Obama number.) In the last week I've had three conversations with strangers in the Phoenix-Scottsdale area who confided that they were going to vote for Obama, including a guy at the plant nursery who felt the need to go all sotto voce when discussing Obama. He was afraid that his co-workers or bosses might hear (and mock him? reprimand him?), but he (a white guy) said the thought of Obama winning brought a tear of joy to his eyes. Maybe these polling numbers will bring more Arizonans out of the closet, so to speak.

Real Joe said...



Kerry states + IA + NM + CO = 273

stupidgreen said...

Has anyone (fivethirtyeight or others) done any research into the Bradley Effect in the primaries? Were any pollsters more susceptible (or less) than their peers back in January through May? Given the ways that the Reverend Wright controversy erupted, I would have thought that we'd have seen some trace of this then.

Thanks!

takestock said...

Nate, you should analyze the effect of weekend polling on the pollsters. We seem to get a shift back to McCain each weekend in most of them. Not sure why, but it would be interesting to see if the day-of-the-week effects the polling results.

Real Joe said...

stepper said...

Is that when you're going to come out of the closet and tell us you're a plant for the Obama/Biden campaign?



LOL

plant ?

no

Eric said...

Can anyone come up with a reasonable path for McCain without Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Nevada?

It seems Barack is almost assured to win all 3.

In order to win at that point, it seems McCain would need to flip either Wisconsin, Minnesota, Washington + New Hampshire and hold onto everything else. Or flip Michigan. I don't think any of those seem reasonable.

Real Joe said...

Kerry states + IA + NM + CO = 273

Obama's way home

PorridgeGun said...

Andrew said...

Obama's numbers always dip over the weekend, then rebound during the week.

If you haven't noticed this, you haven't been paying close attention to the trackers over the last month or so.



Obama can't afford to rely on that trend continuing this week. He needs to grab the bull by the balls and win the next couple of news cycles. Like I said, conventional campaign tactics won't work. McCain will try to distarct voters from the issues he's losing on.

The Commander Guy said...

FWIW

Ford had been preparing a statewide run for office over a 10 year period visiting all parts of the state including rural areas.

He regularly appeared on local conservative talk radio as well as other efforts to market himself to the southern swing voters (fmr democrats who now culturally align w/ the GOP) and the middle.

Ford was/is not a hack like Blackwell or a novice like Swan or an ideologue like Steele.

Again FWIW.

Real Joe said...

eric

there is no reasonable way for McCain to comeback

slicknickshady said...

Concern Trolls are everywhere this morning. lol.

I have class at 11:00 AM.

Steve_OH said...

@Davy

"Did you leave out the verb on purpose. Cause that would be really funny."

This sentence no verb.

Aunt Karen said...

Don't buy Dunkin' Donuts! The Carlyle Group bought them out - well, I mean if you want to give them your money, you can. I know I stopped going there.

I buy this instead now:

http://www.bluestatecoffee.com/

I'd much rather underwrite them. Make it at home, bring it in a thermos. Of course, as I said above, give your money to whoever you want to, so YMMV.

PA John said...

The election night surprsie could be:

A. Real Joe is really Joe Biden

B. Real Joe is really Joe McCain

C. Real Joe is never heard from again.

D. McCain is planning to contest the validity of results in every state, which is why he is meeting the press on the front lawn amd not in the ball room. (I have sources in RNC)

Voice of the Midwest said...

NewsfromOH:

Which Ohio town took it on the chin with the massive loss of jobs from the DHL closure?

McCain sponsored the bill that gave DHL the incentive to move out of Ohio.

In Indiana, it appears the image of Mitt Romney is going to pop up in the last week in a NE Indiana Congressional race. Mark Souder (R-Fort Wayne) has an opponent who rode well with the national wave until the last three weeks, then put his and House Dem money to work on TV and radio.

One ad rumored to be out there is one that highlights how Souder financial supporter Mitt Romney bought a Marion, Indiana company (Ampad) on Thursday, promised the employees their jobs were safe on Friday by Romney, then they were all laid off on Monday. Souder has received hundreds of thousands in support from Romney and employees of his company.

Ted Kennedy used a similar ad in 1994 versus Romney. It worked. But can it work on a second party in a congressional district with opposite party affiliation numbers (55R 36D) as Massachusetts? This year, who knows.

Eric said...

Real Joe said...
there may be a surprise on election night

get ready everybody


Assuming this is the Real, Real Joe, read the article closely.

The 2 worst candidates of the 10 were undoubtedly Ken Blackwell and Michael Steele. They're also both republicans and against two really good candidates. This is meaningless.

KWRegan said...

I agree with Dan Hamilton---I had submitted a shorter comment to that effect which produced conflicting "Your comment has been saved" and "Conflict error...hit Back and try again" messages, but with the popup-window system on my Mac, hitting Back did not re-show my message.

Besides "Bradley" proper and "how do undecideds tend to break?", I think it will be hard if not impossible to tease either apart from a general "elephants lie more to (certain) pollsters" effect, which I noted you touched on in the Colbert interview. Maybe this can be separated out by variation in different regions of the country, but it's tough.

My other suggestion regarding the topic of "outlier" national polls is (or have-you-done?): assuming RCP's current Obama +7.3% margin reflects the true population, run a # of simulations equal to the # of polls in the past two weeks, and compare the outlier counts and magnitudes. Even though there are systematic effects with certain polls as you've neatly demonstrated, and we can get the general message by noting that McCain even wins 3.3% of the time in your electoral-vote simulations, it would be illuminating to see the #s---including that and the gap between 3.3% and the 10--15% McCain is still getting in various comparable IEM, InTrade, etc. stipulations.

slicknickshady said...

New VCU poll.

Virgina

Obama 51
Mccain 40

http://www.commonwealthpoll.vcu.edu/CPOLL-Pres-Sen-Race-report-10-26-08.pdf

Dominic said...

I'm dabbling in some statistical studies of my own!

On this thread there are
27 posts discussing Nate's editing errors in this piece, of which:

9 chide him for calling Swann "white"
10 chide him for dropping an adjective.

Of the 27 there are 10 which consist of people chiding each other for their reactions to Nate's errors in editing, of which:

7 are instances of Me2U and John McCain is my Love Child hurling abusive language and virtual threats of bodily harm at each other.

Implications? Anyone? Anyone?

Davy said...

Good morning from Oregon (7:00am). I'm completely on board with the logic behind the argument for the absence of the Bradley effect. But I have found little explanation for the cell phone only effect (some pollsters claim to factor this in). I can only presume that there isn't adequate data to quantify (or qualify) this effect.

That leads me to believe that we're in for a big surprise on Nov. 4th. If anyone knows of a cogent argument or article that refutes this perspective, please feel free to post (politely) about it.

Eric said...

OTF,
CO
697,000 early voters 38.6%D, 37.9%R
Last updated voter registration files show Repub advnatge reduced to 11,400 from 177,000 in 2004. In septmeber to close advantge reduced from 78,000 to 11,400...big last month for dems in registrations. CO is looking good for Obama!


one more thing. Republicans out numbered Ems in early voting in 2004 by about 70,000 I think.

Blame said...

Iam not only highly dubious of the existence of the Bradley effect, I am begining to wonder about the fabled "poll tightening".

While I must make it clear that my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it (keep up the GOTV), I expect the polls to proove wildly pesimistic for Obama.

Everytime Obama gives a widly telivised speach or debate his ratings go up up up. Given time they go down again, but not in the short time between Nov 4 and his half hour TV slots.

Add in reverse bradley effect, cellphone effect, superior Dem GOTV, GOP infighting, defections & defeatism, well, predicting Obama +10 would make a conservative of me.

PA John said...


7 are instances of Me2U and John McCain is my Love Child hurling abusive language and virtual threats of bodily harm at each other.


That's called the "Mule Rider Effect"

Christopher said...

If McCain lost Arizona it would be the end of his political influence. He would just ride off into the sunset. I still think he can do some good things in the Senate, but he might be buried by his own party if he loses. I wonder if he wouldn't go back into legacy mode and just become the independent with Lieberman -- trying to just go non-partisan. It might be good for his lasting image after he retires. McCain is good when you can just focus thing. He is relentless. But he doesn't have a very broad field of knowledge. It frustrates him.

Voice of the Midwest said...

"The 2 worst candidates of the 10 were undoubtedly Ken Blackwell and Michael Steele. They're also both republicans and against two really good candidates. This is meaningless." (Eric)

I beg to differ or at least amend, Eric.

Lynn Swann was a horrible candidate.

Eric said...

PA John,

D. McCain is planning to contest the validity of results in every state, which is why he is meeting the press on the front lawn amd not in the ball room. (I have sources in RNC)


ie, ACORN, campaign finance, etc.?