10.30.2008

Anatomy of a Polling Disaster

Carl Bialik of the Wall Street Journal has the scoop on the bizarre internals in that IBD/TIPP poll, which as we noted last week, found John McCain as having a substantial lead among young voters. I speculated that this result could only be possible if IBD/TIPP were radically undersampling young voters, and indeed that seems to have been the case:

Raghavan Mayur, president of TechnoMetrica, told me he was equally surprised by the results, saying the widespread perception that Obama is leading by a large margin in that group “is my perception, too.” He blamed the result on a small sample size. Each daily tracking poll includes about 1,000 interviews spread over the prior five days; each day a new set of survey respondents is added and the oldest set is discarded.

Ideally, Mayur would like to have 75 of all those respondents fall into the youngest age range. Some pollsters would have preferred more; this age group makes up 13% of the adult population, though its voting rate historically has been lower than average. His sample fell far short even of his lower goal, typically including just 25 to 30 respondents from age 18 to 24 — meaning just five or six new interviews with these young voters were being conducted each day. “We are not able to get to speak to as many as we would like to in that group,” he said.

He blamed that on several factors. For one thing, nearly one-third of adults in that age range lack landline phones, and Mayur’s pollsters don’t dial cellphones. (He points out that when calling cellphones, the chance that the person who picks up lacks a landline and is in the relevant age range is quite low.) Furthermore, among those who do live in households with landlines, young people may be away at school or in the military, Mayur said.

This small sample size at first didn’t trouble Mayur, as Obama led among these voters in the first three tracking polls. But when the results started to break McCain’s way as suddenly and dramatically as they did, Mayur began to question his own methodology. On the day McCain’s lead widened in this group to 52 points, Mayur added a footnote to the 18-to-24-year-old group: “Age 18-24 has much fluctuation due to small sample size.” He says he didn’t add a similar one to the Jewish subgroup, with just half the sample size as the young voters, because the Jews in his sample consistently stated a preference for Obama, as he expected.


Now, read those paragraphs carefully, because there are several problems with this pollster's process:

1. 75 young voters out of a 1,000-person panel is an awfully low target. In 2004, about 93 out of every 1,000 voters were age 18-24, according to statistics compiled by the Census Bureau. Now, we can debate about whether that number is going to go up this year (youth turnout increased by about 50 percent as a share of the Democratic primary electorate), but it's certainly not going to go down.

2. That notwithstanding, their target may be a moot point, it doesn't appear that the pollster felt any compulsion to weight for age-based demographics in the first place. "This small sample size at first didn’t trouble Mayur" ... well, it ought to have troubled him, because if only 3 percent of your sample consists of 18-24 year-olds, when that fraction should be closer to 9 percent even assuming no increase in youth voter support, you're going to significantly understate Barack Obama's margins. A superior pollster would have flagged this problem long before it became manifest to the entire world.

3. Lastly, Mayur appears to have "resolved" the problem by relying on non-random sampling techniques. Now, I don't want to be too critical of this decision, because Mayur has been kind enough to disclose his process. I'm sure that he isn't the first pollster to take a few shortcuts in the process of creating his sausage, and I'm sure that he won't be the last. Still, this would seem to violate one of the most basic premises of survey research, which is that of the random sample ... in "resolving" his young votes problem, Mayur could very easily have introduced a whole host of others, the effects of which may be harder to detect.

The point of all of this is that just because some pollster puts some numbers together in a PDF doesn't mean that they have any particular idea what they're doing. This pollster apparently made its name for itself because they had forecasted the results of the 2004 popular vote accurately. Notwithstanding that one result isn't anywhere near enough information to conclude that a pollster is strong, the 2004 election was perhaps the easiest one in history to forecast. The electorate was highly partisanized with few undecideds, and both bases turned out in roughly equal numbers; it wasn't just IBD/TIPP that got it right -- almost everyone did. This election is considerably more difficult to poll, and it's exposing the weaker pollsters.

344 comments

David said...

"And one of my biggest reasons to oppose McCain is that he hasn't said anything on a whole range of issues, never mind education, but healthcare, science, encouraging business, etc etc."

I wonder if McCain would leave education to Palin? He would need to give her a toy to keep her out of the way.

Could you imagine the damage she would would cause in education and science? It would make Bush seem like a pro-education guy.

shadowguidex said...

Pete - do you want to go trick or treating with me? I'll dress up as a scary ghost or something, and you can just go as yourself - a delusional freeptard.

jacho - someone who furiously masturbates to reruns of the Mary Tyler moore Show.

David said...

"Unless you are counting cards in blackjack or playing poker, then no, you cannot."

Intelligent players do go in for slots or roulette.

Brad said...

Well, you can use an intelligent approach to blackjack without counting cards and only give the house 0.5% to 1% advantage.

InkStain said...

"Intelligent players do go in for slots or roulette."

No, they don't. Unless they are intelligent but hate money.

michiganmaine said...

Seth O'Toole,

I think we need to add awards for the worst and most twisted understanding of polls.

For that: we have to nominate Michael.

markymark said...

david said
'I wonder if McCain would leave education to Palin? He would need to give her a toy to keep her out of the way.

Could you imagine the damage she would would cause in education and science? It would make Bush seem like a pro-education guy.'
-------------------

I'd prefer not to.

InkStain said...

"Well, you can use an intelligent approach to blackjack without counting cards and only give the house 0.5% to 1% advantage."

Yes. And since the stock market, at a minimum, has a 3% or so player edge, that's still quite a ways from being better, or even comparable.

Uke Xensen said...

"He says he didn’t add a similar [qualification] to the Jewish subgroup, with just half the sample size as the young voters, because the Jews in his sample consistently stated a preference for Obama, as he expected."

That tells you all you need to know. He starts with an unscientific presumption and then discards results that don't match it.

David said...

"Then you are a complete idiot. You should not be so overloaded with risky assets and equities."

Many 401K's were seriously damaged recently. They are sold as solid retirement plans.

What is idiocy is putting any of your future in the hands of moronic MBA's***.

*** I realize that 'moronic MBA' is an oxymoron.

Andrew said...

Best Overall: Real Joe
Most Partisan: Real Joe
Most Insightful/Intellectual: Real Joe
Best Satirist/Parody/Sarcastic: Real Joe
Most Ignorant: Real Joe

MysticLaker said...

@andrew

Hard to say...They only start with the raw RV voters, but you don't know what disqualified the others.

My guess is that they filtered down to the RV's they wanted, and then went from there (because the RV/LV numbers are relatively close).

GaMeS said...

Excellent points, Nate.

Not to picron (WV!) this pollster, but the 95% margin of error for a sample of 30 respondents is 17.9%. In other words, a swing of up to 36 points wouldn't even be unexpected.

Even with his original target of 75, the MOE is still 11.3%, for a swing of up to 23 points. It is absolutely unacceptable for a critical demographic.

There's a reason that the Good Lord invented stratified samples and oversampling subgroups.

goatdan said...

"And one of my biggest reasons to oppose McCain is that he hasn't said anything on a whole range of issues, never mind education, but healthcare, science, encouraging business, etc etc."

That was something I didn't like about either one of them at the start of this whole thing -- they both seemed to avoid what they would do. McCain talked about how great he was, and Obama made nice speeches about how there were no red states and no blue states.

Then, all of a sudden, Obama got down to it and started to talk about his policy. In detail. Often. While McCain talked about how Obama was bad and Obama's decisions wouldn't work. But I still can't give you any of McCain's great policy ideas, since all of his ads are negative and about why I shouldn't elect Obama.

All that, *and* Obama is still an exceptional speaker to boot.

David said...

"Best Overall: Real Joe
Most Partisan: Real Joe
Most Insightful/Intellectual: Real Joe
Best Satirist/Parody/Sarcastic: Real Joe
Most Ignorant: Real Joe"

LOL

I also thought of Joe as a closet Obama supporter playing the role of McCain troll to perfection.

Antmatic said...

New Rasmussen
O-50
M-48

Eric said...

Here's my cursory take of the polls. If a pollster has a Republican lean, they have two things that show up. #1, a Party ID breakdown very similar to 2004 and a larger group of undecideds.

If a poll reads Obama 47 McCain 44 with 9% undecided, it could be argued tha Mcinturff has a point. This is with Voter Id 2-3% more Dems than Pubs. If most of the 9% undecided show up and break to McCain and the Voter ID is accurate, then McCain could win. That's a lot of ifs, especially the Voter ID part.

Most Democratic leaning pollsters, assume turnout to be based on registration numbers with more Dems than 2006. A poll from them, whether a bellweather state or national may look like ths:

52% Obama
44% McCain
2% other
2% undecided

The truth is likely somewhere in between. Probably something like this:

49% Obama
44% McCain
5% Undecided
2% other

It would take a lot, 5 days out, to change what we see above. A chunk of undecideds will stay home. What watershed event over the next 5 days will shift 2-3% of Obama's support to McCain and 80% of the undecideds to him? That's about what it would take. You have early voting padding Obama's lead as we speak. McCain probably has to be ahead 1-2% on November 4th to make up for it.

Brad said...

I didn't say it was better, I said an intelligent person can limit their losses without counting cards.

InkStain said...

"Many 401K's were seriously damaged recently. They are sold as solid retirement plans."

You are embarrassing yourself. Badly.

"401ks" do not automatically mean the stock market. Most, if not all, have non-equity options that are *highly* recommended to anyone who is nearing retirement age.

PorridgeGun said...

LMAO!!!


Channel Four just reported on recent campaign activity showing Obama with Clinton in Florida and camapigning with a spring in his step and smile on his face, then cutting to McCain in the freezing cold shouting out for Joe the Plumber to make an appearance, but Joe's nowhere to be seen. McCain's then left hanging for a few seconds before he's says "Your all Joe the Plumbers!". It was really pathetic.

shadowguidex said...

Best Overall: Real Joe
Most Partisan: petekent
Most Insightful: lat
Best Satirist/Parody/Sarcastic: shadowguidex
Most Ignorant: he

Antmatic said...

The Ramsussen number I posted was North Carolina

InkStain said...

"*** I realize that 'moronic MBA' is an oxymoron."

I realize that you are clearly in over your head, talking about a subject you know nothing about but your own self-serving biases.

Vinny said...

McCain hasn't lead or tied in any poll since mid-September.

That should be enough to tell you he's doomed.

Brad said...

Ant-

What state is that?

sfergus483 said...

HE is total parody/snark

Pete Kent is delusional

Antmatic said...

Rasmussen
North Carolina
O-50
M-48

Indiana
M-49
O-46

Montana
M-50
O-46

Kentucky
M-55
O-43

John David said...

Today's IBD/TIPP poll is Obama 47.7, McCain 43.6.

O+4.1, it was O+3.0 yesterday

InkStain said...

"I didn't say it was better, I said an intelligent person can limit their losses without counting cards."

And we agree. If you are a really good card-counter and pick your games carefully, you can even flip the edge in your favor occassionally.

TBender said...

Real Joe is not a McCain troll, he's an independent!

Just like every other person who typically is a Republican in other election cycles.

Brad said...

O+2 in NC is pretty good! If Obama picks off a couple southern states like NC and VA this could be a real sea change. 1980 anyone?

InkStain said...

"And we agree. If you are a really good card-counter and pick your games carefully, you can even flip the edge in your favor occassionally."

Of course, if you go through all that trouble, you should probably just go play poker where the good player's edge is legitimate and there's tons of cash just waiting to be taken.

goatdan said...

"Intelligent players do go in for slots or roulette."

I own a slot machine set to "easy". If you're lucky, you get back 1/5th of what you put into it. Kind of like talking points to Palin's head...

Eric said...

InkStain said...
"Well, you can use an intelligent approach to blackjack without counting cards and only give the house 0.5% to 1% advantage."

Yes. And since the stock market, at a minimum, has a 3% or so player edge, that's still quite a ways from being better, or even comparable.


Good understanding of the two Ink. You play poker online or daytrade?

Brad said...

Ant-

Did the MT poll specifically mention Ron Paul?

Zelbinian said...

You tend to write posts like these directly to readers of your site. What's curious to me is that the pollsters now read your site as well. Welcome to politics. :)

PA John said...

Today's IBD/TIPP poll is Obama 47.7, McCain 43.6.

O+4.1, it was O+3.0 yesterday


McCain SURGE!!

The Game said...

Any idea if that Montana number takes into account a Ron Paul effect? Only up 4 with Paul possibly grabbing a small chunk could bode well for Obama.

shadowguidex said...

Hope McCain finds a nice cozy place in the history books next to Barry Goldwater, because he's about to join him there.

asserol - something I don't want to eat.

InkStain said...

"Good understanding of the two Ink. You play poker online or daytrade?"

I do supplement my income a little with poker. I would never touch daytrading. I've never been convinced it's based on solid math.

MysticLaker said...

Thanks Ant!

I love that Montana number.

Indiana is going to be a nail-biter.

NC will be dem!!!!

Chi said...

Thanks, ant! So late Ras poll of NC had M+1; and today's has O+2. That's an improvement even though one can still argue it's a statistical tie.

boulder-liberal said...

"Best Overall: Real Joe
Most Partisan: petekent
Most Insightful: lat
Best Satirist/Parody/Sarcastic: shadowguidex
Most Ignorant: he"


And Mule Rider doesn't win anything? Are you kidding me? And Assmole has to win something, at least best name.

Bush Whacked said...

Goldwater stuck to his principles and lost with integrity.

MaCain's place will be beside George W Bush.

Dan said...

"It is still based on luck and timing. What if you had retired recently and most of your retirement money is in the stock market?"

Then you're either a dumb investor or can afford to lose the money because of overall financial situation.

The prudent investment approach for somebody who "retired recently" would be to hold a large percentage of their money in bonds. Asset allocation should be adjusted with age and ability to take risk. An investor that has 40 years till retirement should probably be mostly stocks, while an investor who's already retired should probably be mostly bonds. Even if a recently retired person held 50% stocks, their total portfolio would only be down ~20%.

Alex said...

I am happy that fox released a +3 poll, this will give a reason for obama people to go out and vote!

PeteKent said...

Guess what libs?

MCCAIN LANDSLIDE!!!!

I TOLD YOU ALL THE POLLS WOULD TIGHTEN AND NOBODY LISTENED!! NOW ALL YOU LIBS ARE COWERING IN FEAR OF THE POLLS SHOWING YOUR MESSIAH IN THE MARGIN OF ERROR!!!! HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAH

COMBINED WITH THE BRADLEY EFFECT, THIS RACE IS OVER! YOUR PARTY WILL DISINTEGRATE LIBS, MITCH MCCONNELL WILL BECOME THE NEW SENATE MAJORITY LEADER!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

kirby96 said...

RE: McCain's embarassing campaign stop today...

"A local school district official confirmed after the event that of the 6,000 people estimated by the fire marshal to be in attendance this morning, more than 4,000 were bused in from schools in the area. The entire 2,500-student Defiance School District was in attendance, the official said, in addition to at least three other schools from neighboring districts, one of which sent 14 buses. "

2/3 bussed in students and no Joe. The McCain campaign is truly a train wreck. I'm gonna miss it.

The Game said...

From the PPP Blog:

Late Night with PPP

Tonight we will be finishing field work on our final polls in Colorado, New Mexico, Michigan, Minnesota, West Virginia, and Oregon. The PPP team will be working through the night and posting each of these polls as soon as it is weighted and analyzed. So if you're an insomniac and so worked up about the election that you can't sleep at night we will help feed your addiction.

Polls will start going up roughly around 10:30 or 11 PM.

--------------

Will be interesting to see the CO, NM, and WV numbers.

shadowguidex said...

"And Mule Rider doesn't win anything? Are you kidding me? And Assmole has to win something, at least best name."

Most likely to die of a massive coronary episode?

sfergus483 said...

Actually, Goldwater was not consigned to the dustbin of history. Four years later he returned to the Senate. He was part of the very small team of top GOP leaders who met with Nixon in August 1974 and convinced him to resign.

Mathis said...

Excellent numbers for Obama in those Rasmussen polls. Trending positive (per Rasmussen) in IN, MT, and NC. MT is going to be an upset. Those Native Americans in the eastern part of the state will turn out big time for Obama, and the demographics of the state have changed too much for pollsters to pick up on. Obama wins a squeaker there, helped along by Schweitzer coattails. I still don't see Obama winning Indiana, but so long as McCain has to sweat that one that, I'll be happy. Obama will prove his worth in the White House and win the Hoosier state in 2012, no doubt.

shadowguidex said...

"I TOLD YOU ALL THE POLLS WOULD TIGHTEN AND NOBODY LISTENED!! NOW ALL YOU LIBS ARE COWERING IN FEAR OF THE POLLS SHOWING YOUR MESSIAH IN THE MARGIN OF ERROR!!!! HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAH

COMBINED WITH THE BRADLEY EFFECT, THIS RACE IS OVER! YOUR PARTY WILL DISINTEGRATE LIBS, MITCH MCCONNELL WILL BECOME THE NEW SENATE MAJORITY LEADER!!! HAHAHAHA!!!"


Whatever, Hal 9000.


hehe, wingaph - the first thing McCain does after leaving his compaign plane.

anbruch said...

Blogger SHERWICK said...

You have to give petekent some credit for keeping on trying, in the face of overwhelming odds against his candidate lol


Yes, he's one of our better trolls...

madamerica said...

Ras numbers other than IN look good. I was expecting IN to be tied. But it still looks like a tossup.

Brad said...

"tasteo" - the wonderful taste of a big zero election for republicans!

PeteKent said...

Hey libs, McCain is stealing the election as we speak. AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!! HAHAHA!!

Sununu, Dole, McConnell, Chambliss, and all the other endangered republicans will be re-elected (besides Virginia's). And we will also pick off Landrieu and Lautenberg, and Lieberman will ditch your pathetic party!! Hahahahaha!!!

REPUBLICAN SENATE MAJORITY 08/MCCAIN LANDSLIDE

Antmatic said...

Ron Paul wasn't mentioned in the Rasmussen video.

Indiana is interesting because I'm sure it's a state where if you poll all registered voters, McCain has a larger lead, but likely voters skew Obama because of the ground game and Obama visits to the state.

Bill P. said...

There's no point in responding to PeteKent. He doesn't answer any of the rebuttals, so there's no discourse.

That's a conservative tactic, by the way. They put out their opinions and either talk over or ignore your rebuttal to repeat their opinions again and again. It's a coward's tactic, and one that conservatives employ frequently.

PeteKent: You are a coward. Your candidate is going to lose. Your president will be Barack Hussein Obama. You will support him, or forever be branded a traitor to the United States of America.

andrew said...

Who would take 1000 to 1 odds that McCain will be the Republican candidate in 2012?

That's some good money....let it ride baby, let it ride!

And for the truly adventurous: 100,000 to 1 that Palin will be appointed to the Supreme Court by McCain if he wins his second White House bid in 2012!

shadowguidex said...

"Hey libs, McCain is stealing the election as we speak. AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!! HAHAHA!!

Sununu, Dole, McConnell, Chambliss, and all the other endangered republicans will be re-elected (besides Virginia's). And we will also pick off Landrieu and Lautenberg, and Lieberman will ditch your pathetic party!! Hahahahaha!!!

REPUBLICAN SENATE MAJORITY 08/MCCAIN LANDSLIDE"


Hal 9000 speaks.

arnieh said...

FOX POLL:

Polling was conducted by telephone October 28-29, 2008, in the evenings. The
total sample is 1100 registered voters (RV) nationwide, with a margin of error
of ±3 percentage points. A sub-sample of 924 has been defined as likely voters
(LV), with a margin of error of ±3 percentage points.
Democrat LV n=379, ±5; Republican LV n=364, ±5; independent LV n=146, ±8
Obama supporters LV n=439, ±5; McCain supporters LV n=405, ±5


What am I doing wrong?

Total LV=889 (not 924)

Obama= 439/889=49%
McCain= 405/889=41%

Where does FOX get O-47 M-44 ??

jslater said...

Re the poster named "He" -- definitely a parody/satirist, and the best one, IMHO.

Re most ignorant, I would say Peter Kent, but I think he's just trolling/spewing talking points. So maybe most partisan, but not necessarily most ignorant.

On the other hand, Michael seemed serious about the AOL poll, so that might put him over the top as most ignorant.

PeteKent said...

Hussein will never be my president. America would never elect a fundamentalist muslim terrorist communist socialist redistributionist. And even if they do, The citizens of Real America will rebel. Just read my blog entires about the Palin Revolution.

http://petekent.blogspot.com/

boulder-liberal said...

"and Lieberman will ditch your pathetic party!"

That day can't come soon enough, imho. He is a sorry character who will come down on the wrong side of history.

JMNorris said...

@STepper
I see 2012 shaping up as Palin/Wurzelbacher for the Pubs, assuming neither of them is in jail and he decides to show up.

How about Palin-Bacmann for 2012? She can hire Barbara West as her press secretary.

arnieh said...

That's McCain 46%

shadowguidex said...

"And for the truly adventurous: 100,000 to 1 that Palin will be appointed to the Supreme Court by McCain if he wins his second White House bid in 2012!"

Yeah, she can parlay that sweet journalism degree from...whatever the hell university eventually graduated her...into a Supreme Court appointment. She can redefine the constitutionality of law using colloquial phrases like "y'know", "you betcha", and "awesome."

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

If anyone has access to Nate I've got a request.

After election night, I'd like to see him re-weigh the pollsters to how close they predicted and re-run the projection with the new weighing to see how much of a difference it would make, if any. I'd just be curious I guess.

PeteKent said...

hat day can't come soon enough, imho.

I'm sure you libs will be whining when it gives the republicans THEIR MAJORITY IN THE SENATE!! HAHAHA!!!

PA John said...

And Mule Rider doesn't win anything? Are you kidding me? And Assmole has to win something, at least best name.

Nule Rider and PeteKent share a special livetime achievment award for "Most Often Sockpuppeted"

WV = "sorambo"

shadowguidex said...

"America would never elect a fundamentalist muslim terrorist communist socialist redistributionist."

We agree there.

By the way, you're still a douchbag.

PeteKent said...

I can't you libs would elect an extremist Muslim communist. That just shows why you aren't part of real America!

MCCAIN LANDSLIDE!!! YOU LIBS WILL BE CRYING ON 11/5!!!

shadowguidex said...

"I'm sure you libs will be whining when it gives the republicans THEIR MAJORITY IN THE SENATE!! HAHAHA!!!"

Yeah, 2040 will be a bad year.

Bede the Youthful said...

anyone have a sense for what nate's model would have said a year ago today?

anbruch said...

Blogger PeteKent said...

Hey libs, McCain is stealing the election as we speak. AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!! HAHAHA!!


About the only chance he has.

PeteKent said...

We agree there.

Then say goodbye to Hussein. ;)

STepper said...

@JSlater

He is not a satirist but a plagiarist. He copied all those "brilliant" pieces about fighting the libs in Falloujah, even down to the "Simper Fi"s from a 2006 board called Halo 3 or somesuch.

Next time he posts (if he dares), select a key phrase or two of 3-8 words and Google it. You will see the Halo 3 site come up. (Looks like a "Fantasy Marine" site of some bizarre sort.)



@ JMNorris

Barbara West is taking Brit Hume's current job at Fox "News." She passed her audition with flying colours. You Marxist!

[inglyto]

SP said...

Could you imagine the damage she would would cause in education and science?

Yeah, we'd all be learning about how dinosaurs and people roamed the earth together.

After listening to what she had to say about fruitfly research, I am entirely convinced that this woman has not the first clue about what research is, about model organisms, basic science, etc.

Yeah, *shocking* news!

PeteKent said...

About the only chance he has.

And it's going to work. Are you libs so complacent? Have you forgotten 2000 and 2004? It's going to happen AGAIN! HAHAHA!! MCCAIN WILL STEAL ALL THE SWING STATES JUST LIKE BUSH STOLE FLORIDA!!!

madamerica said...

@arnieh:

405/889 is about 45.5, not 41.

But if we use 924,

439/889 = 47.5%
405/889 = 43.8%

I love how Fox rounds 43.8 to 44 (correctly) but rounds 47.5 down to 47. These guys have no dignity.

Real Joe said...

pete

PUMA POWER !

LOL

shadowguidex said...

"I can't you libs would elect an extremist Muslim communist. That just shows why you aren't part of real America!"

Whats real America? The 13 original colonies? Obama is leading in 11 of them, tied in one, and close in the final.

kirby96 said...

Uh-oh. Trouble for Obama in PA. Per MSNBC, Ashley Todd just got out of jail and is available to return to work for the McCain campaign. Sources say the local office was in disarray without her steady leadership (she'd been in jail since the 24th). Expect a 3-5 pt. McCain bump in polls over the weekend.

clubok said...

Arieh: It looks to me like you've noticed a mathematical error. Then again, I'm no expert in how these numbers are reported. Perhaps that passage doesn't mean what it seems.

But something else in there caught my eye:
Polling was conducted by telephone October 28-29, 2008, in the evenings.

Half of the interviews were conducted yesterday evening? I wonder how many were done between 8:00 and 8:30, when Democrats would be less likely to answer the telephone? This could easily account for the relatively low Democrat representation in their sample.

Word of the Message: Pighe. Just add lipstick.

Real Joe said...

kirby96 said...
Uh-oh. Trouble for Obama in PA. Per MSNBC, Ashley Todd just got out of jail and is available to return to work for the McCain campaign. Sources say the local office was in disarray without her steady leadership (she'd been in jail since the 24th). Expect a 3-5 pt. McCain bump in polls over the weekend.


WTF ?

Jackie said...

As if I needed more convincing, there's a really complimentary article to Nate in SEED today.

You also got a great shoutout from Andrew Sullivan on yesterday's On Point (with a guy who is not Tom Ashbrook). WTG with the total media domination!

ovittn: Ovittn mess with Nate's statistics if I were you!

mc9cain said...

arnieh,
Looks like your numbers are right and Fox is wrong with their little math. Still a 3 point spread but 49 is much better than 47 for Obama.

gloga - the sound of Fox analysts choking on their lies.

PeteKent said...


Whats real America?


The pro-America parts of the country. aka RED states, who have TRUE American values and patriotism! Unlike you filthy commie libs!

MCCAIN LANDSLIDE!!!

Subterranean said...

What's the word on an "air of inevitability?" Is the cable zeitgeist shifting in that direction yet?

PeteKent said...

I'm not a PUMA. I despise the wicked Clintons. George W., our best president EVER, beating even Reagan, saved us from them.

PeteKent said...

But I do work with an ENORMOUS group of PUMAS in PA -- they're all lying to the pollsters!! Hahah!!!

Here's just a sample of one of our internal polls:

Hussein - 49
McCain - 48

1 point away?! HAHAHAHA!!!

PeteKunt said...

The TREES will decide this ELECTION!

WASHINGTON goes RED!
OREGON goes RED!
MINNESOTA goes RED!
MAINE goes RED!
NEW HAMPSHIRE goes RED!
VERMONT goes RED!

The places with SNOW MACHINES GO RED!

MICHIGAN IS RED!!

FEAR it LIBTARDS! IT IS TIGHTENING!!

SIMPER FI!

Bill P. said...

It will be interesting to see how Republicans behave as a complete minority party with a Democratic government. Will they keep the 'support our president' bumper stickers on their cars? Will they suddenly discover that dissent is patriotic? Will they keep whining about how criticizing the president gives aid and comfort to America's enemies? Stay tuned...

WV: sheat - How many of McCain's supporters misspell their primary wardrobe.

shadowguidex said...

"The pro-America parts of the country. aka RED states, who have TRUE American values and patriotism! Unlike you filthy commie libs!"


I truly and honestly encourage you to say things like this all day every day until the election. PLEASE, keep saying this kind of stuff, it makes my nipples hard just thinking of all the people who flock to Obama every time some jackass mumbles douchebaggery like this. Your arrogant partisan blathering feeds us.

PeteKent said...

It will be interesting to see how Republicans behave as a complete minority party with a Democratic government.

Good luck, commie! AT BEST, the commies will have the same standing they have this year. Most likely we will control the senate as well!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

AIM FOR 2010 - TAKE THE HOUSE OF REPS!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

kittles93 said...

Per Ambinder, a Democrat internal poll has Obama only down five in SD.

PeteKunt said...

NEW MAINE POLL!!!

HUSSEIN/BYDEN 46%
PALIN/McCAIN 57%

NEW OREGON POLL!!!

HUSSEIN/BYDEN 46%
PALIN/MCCAIN 63%

IT. IS. OVER!


NOT BLIND OPPOSITION TO PROGRESS, BUT OPPOSITION TO BLIND PROGRESS!! THE TREES!!! THE TREES!!!

KCMOderate said...

Maybe some of you poll-savvy posters can help me with this. I looked at the Zogby numbers this morning, and they didn't seem to make sense. Zogby shows Obama to be up by 6.9 percent. He then states that Obama's lead is 5 points for men, and 10 points for women. If Zogby is using the demographic info from the 2004 Presidential election, this doesn't make sense. Women made up 53.5 percent of the voters in 2004. Using this figure, Obama's lead should be around 7.7 percent. Using Zogby's figures ( up 6.9 total, 10 with women, 5 with men) means he is expecting women to make up only 38 percent of the voters come Nov. 4th. What am I missing? By the way, this is my first post ever, so please go easy. Thanks.

anbruch said...

Blogger Seth O'Toole said...

Whoa. Did anybody go to that petekent blogspot?

Somebody went to a lot of trouble. That's not the original PeteKent who posted here months ago, is it? That dude was a doofus, but he didn't seem like he'd post bogus crap like what that blog has.

Any thoughts?


I actually thought the blog was rather lame, and petekent appears to be even more a parodist there than here.

shadowguidex said...

"I'm not a PUMA. I despise the wicked Clintons. George W., our best president EVER, beating even Reagan, saved us from them."

Oh lord, the boom you bring to Obama every time you speak. It's like nectar of the gods. Thank you petekent - you have probably singlehandedly spanked up a good hundred votes for Obama just for your inane blathering.

clubok said...

In case anybody is wondering, the person posting as "petekent" is not the real PeteKent who used to post here - just a sock puppet. Apart from the difference in capitalization, the real PeteKent had a completely different profile link. It's easy to see if you go back to archived posts.

The real PeteKent doesn't seem to have posted here in quite a while.

Jerry056 said...

RE: Rasmussen Polls

Kentucky
M-55
O-43

As a fellow KY'ian I apologize for my entire state :) Still 8 points better than Bush/Kerry 2004 (60/40)

North Carolina
O-50
M-48

Very nice result. NC to me is an "Icing on the cake" state and it looked to be more in McCain's camp the last few days. This state will probably go down to the wire.

Indiana
M-49
O-46

Another "icing on the cake" state. My gut tells me McCain will win this state by 2-3% so this looks very accurate.

Montana
M-50
O-46

McCain probably takes this state by about 3-4% so again looks very accurate.

Overall good numbers for Obama, especially since all 4 states he should have NO business even being close in, and he stands a good chance of taking at least 1 of them.

Christopher said...

so·cial·ism
–noun
1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
- Random House Unabridged Dictionary

"[...] we’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs."
- Sarah Palin

PeteKunt said...

DEVELOPNIG ON DRUDGE.....!!

PALIN TO CAMPAIGN IN PORTLAND, ME AND PORTLAND, OR!!!

anbruch said...

Oh, goodie, petekunt (petekent's better half) is here.

jslater said...

@ Stepper:

How odd. I assumed with all the intentional misspellings (including telling ones like marine "core" instead of "corps" and "pole fellow marines" instead of "poll"), implausible sets of names and places, and too-over-the-top-macho even for the internets, that "He" was doing performance art.

Are you telling me it's plagarized performance art? If so, I take back my nomination.

PeteKent said...

I am the real petekent, not a sockpuppet, you liberal hippy.

The only reason it's not capitalized is because we're not on the front page anymore...EVERYONE'S NAME ISN'T CAPITALIZED!

Get some brains, hippy!

And shadowguidex, the patriotic states will NEVER vote for Hussein. It's the truth. Just look at the Oklahoma and Utah polls!

PeteKent said...

You libs amaze me. You have ALREADY forgotten about 00 and 04! lol!

Get ready for this election to get STOLEN right from Obama's hands!! HAHAHA!!!

PA John said...

I am the real petekent, not a sockpuppet, you liberal hippy.

No douchebag, you're a sock puppet. The "real" PeteKent doesn't use a Blogger ID. Why the hell am I sticking up for PeteKent?

wv = antapa: Antmatic's evil twin.

anbruch said...

Blogger PeteKent said...

I am the real petekent, not a sockpuppet, you liberal hippy.


ooo, somebody's feelings got hurt?

PeteKent said...

Humor me, libs. What will you do when McCain steals the election?

STepper said...

@JSlater

Yup. He stole mercilessly from another site. They constantly corrected his similar mistakes there, Simper Fi, Marine Core, etc., etc. The only thing he added he was the usual tag

"MCCAIN/PALLEN 2008
PALLEN/[Some other idiot] 2012"


OOT: Do you think we can fix up Joe (Sam) the (Unlicensed) Plumber with Ashley Todd?

[misma]

PA John said...

Humor me, libs. What will you do when McCain steals the election?

Maybe the petekent sockpuppet is really Barbara West?

markymark said...

Barry Goldwater was a good man, one whom I would disagree with on most issues, but he was a good man. We should be prepapred to acknowledge that. Stuck to his principles, outlined an alternative vision of government, and lost. [Also very opposed to social conservatives].

I am sure that in many ways McCain is a good man. I think he hasn't put his best side across in the election, and thats a pity for him. But I think in the end 2008 will be a tough epitaph for his poltical career which has had a few highpoints.

shadowguidex said...

"OOT: Do you think we can fix up Joe (Sam) the (Unlicensed) Plumber with Ashley Todd?"

Have you seen her? She's horrible looking. I'm not a big JTP fan, but still....she's got a face only a mother could love.

Doctroid said...

"He says he didn’t add a similar one to the Jewish subgroup, with just half the sample size as the young voters, because the Jews in his sample consistently stated a preference for Obama, as he expected."

That right there is enough to tell you you should disregard this pollster. His methodology is completely wrong.

AaronM said...

do we know anything about the youth voter turnout???

clubok said...

NC to me is an "Icing on the cake" state and it looked to be more in McCain's camp the last few days. This state will probably go down to the wire.

I doubt it. Obama will almost certainly overperform the polls in NC - just as he did in the primaries - due to unprecedented African American turnout.

NC early voting turnout already exceeds half of overall 2004 turnout. African Americans have cast 27.1% of early ballots there, whereas they were just 18.6% of the electorate in 2004.

Any pollster who is basing their LV model on past turnout will have problems. Early voting in NC seems to support the "LVII" type of model, to use Gallup's term.

shadowguidex said...

North Carolina's early voting numbers are staggering. The 1,847,860 votes has already reached 52% of the 2004 vote total of 3,552,449. Of those votes, 53% are Democrats, 29% Republicans. The AA vote is currently 27% of those numbers, and we all know virtually all of those votes are for Obama. 56% are women and women tend democratic also.

Seriously, for the Republicans to win North Carolina, it will take a fucking miracle. These numbers just speak for themselves. 52% of the 2004 vote total is sitting there as a clear-cut Obama majority thus far. So far, this thing isn't even close to being a tossup, it's definitively Obama leaning.

War Hussein Obama said...

NC just extended its saturday early voting hours by 4 hours.

shadowguidex said...

I'm finding myself muting the TV now when they switch to Palin or McCain speaking. I'm so tired of their voices.

sfergus483 said...

Yesterday, someone posted that the US embassy in Damascus being shut down today was a hint of something big in the offing.

My random guess was that, well, maybe the Syrian gov't was planning a demonstration protesting the border incursion last weekend.

I guess right.

http://english.sina.com/world/2008/1030/195217.html

Let's see what we can come up with next....

shadowguidex said...

According to preliminary ratings numbers from the networks, more than 26 million people watched the program on CBS, NBC or Fox. That's 3 million more than usually watch those networks at that hour, according to the Hollywood Reporter. Averaging in the cable networks that also carried the event, about 30 million people in all saw the long-form campaign ad.

Cugel said...

Seth O'Toole said...

Now that things are winding down and 538 - and its commenters - are cemented in the fabric of this election cycle, it's time for some awards.

Who are some of the best - and worst - commenters on this site since its inception.

We could have several catgories like:

Best Overall
Most Partisan
Most Insightful/Intellectual
Best Satirist/Parody/Sarcastic
Most Ignorant
What does everyone think?"


We should have categories for "Most Amusing!" "Best Troll" and "Best Faux Concern-Trolling In An Individual Post"

Most Amusing: HE for his constant references to "Simper Fi!" and other hilarious rants.

Best Troll: Mule-Humper, who manages to hijack every single thread he enters and make it all about him.

Best Concern Trolling-Single Post: There are too many entries in this category.

Best Use of Cut & Paste Function: Pete Kent

Most Informative: Modeler, Humanist

WV: "cologio" -- a new form of Bi-partisanship & Collegiality Obama will use as President: involves calling up Harry Reid and Hillary Clinton to ask them what they think.

KQuark said...

Politowitz said...

"Not to throw cold water on everyone, but it's worth having a look at the polling data from 2000:

ABC: 48/45
CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP 48/42
FOX/OPINION DYNAMICS 43/43
HOTLINE 47/40
IBD/CSM/TIPP 47/42
MARIST COLLEGE 49/44
NEWSWEEK 45/43
REUTERS/MSNBC 45/42
VOTER.COM (BATTLEGROUND) 46/37"

The polls you mention had Bush without 50% in all the polls. Obama is over 50% in many polls and has an average around 50% furthermore Obama has higher leads than Bush.

You also forget that Bush's DUI did not come to light until days before the election.

RCP Average 10/23 - 10/29 -- -- 49.9 43.7 Obama +6.2
FOX News 10/28 - 10/29 924 LV 3.0 47 44 Obama +3
Rasmussen Reports 10/27 - 10/29 3000 LV 2.0 51 46 Obama +5
Gallup (Traditional)* 10/27 - 10/29 1825 LV 2.0 50 45 Obama +5
Gallup (Expanded)* 10/27 - 10/29 2437 LV 2.0 51 44 Obama +7
Diageo/Hotline 10/27 - 10/29 869 LV 3.6 48 42 Obama +6
Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby 10/27 - 10/29 1179 LV 2.9 50 43 Obama +7
IBD/TIPP 10/25 - 10/29 894 LV 3.0 48 44 Obama +4
ABC News/Wash Post 10/25 - 10/28 1316 LV 2.5 52 44 Obama +8
GWU/Battleground 10/23 - 10/29 1000 LV 3.1 49 46 Obama +3
Ipsos/McClatchy 10/23 - 10/27 831 LV 3.4 50 45 Obama +5
Pew Research 10/23 - 10/26 1198 LV 3.5 53 38 Obama +15

Very bad comparison.

KQuark said...

michiganmaine said...

"Except Obama leads by much more than that. You are simply cherry picking the worst of the polls--the one that is obviously fixed. Anyhow, this is a state-by-state race. Show us how that would work without cherry picking. You can't and you know it, so you won't even answer that request. So make a real argument or on your bike."

Great point I watch the EC college polls like a hawk in 2004. Bush never got near 300 ECVs based on state polling at that time.

Great historical reference for 2004 race.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Oct30.html

KQuark said...

For all tro//s trying to blow smoke up our collective arses. Going by straight state polling Obama is up 375 - 175 in EC votes.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

On this day in 2004 Bush was up on Kerry 280 - 243 in the EC.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Oct30.html

So explain to me how McCain is going to catch up 200 EC votes when Kerry could not catch up with 37?

andytkac said...

This is my last read of this website. What may have passed for an unbiased analysis has swiftly became a Democrat propaganda tool. All polls have weaknesses (have we forgotten earlier analyses).

Let's acknowledge the BIGGEST assumption in all the polls ... that is that substantially more DEMOCRATS will vote (despite historic trends) than REPUBLICANS. Although I think the overall voting percentage will be higher this year ... I'm not so sure of the Democrat / Republican split.

Also, lets acknowledge the elephant in the room ... with the state of the economy and the Iraq war, lowest approval rates in history ... why isn't OBAMA up by more the 15 to 20%?

Aaron Levitt said...

Nice job, Nate. It's hard to imagine anything more tiresome and pointless than an incompetent pollster...except, perhaps, for an average political candidate.

boulder-liberal said...

"why isn't OBAMA up by more the 15 to 20%?"

What could it be? What could it be? I just can't put my finger on it. Maybe one of the Alabama commenters could weigh in. Just what could it be......?

Politowitz said...

The answer to the Fox party weighting question:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95854,00.html

A properly conducted national probability sample should accurately reflect national attitudes. However, particularly because FOX News polls are normally conducted over only two nights (limiting the opportunity for callbacks), some demographic deviation is possible. Opinion Dynamics Corporation compares each sample of respondents with a constantly updated database of demographic information about the national voting population and, when necessary, minor weights are applied to key demographic variables to bring the sample into conformity with the most reliable demographic profiles. FOX News polls are not weighted by political party.

There you have it -- they don't weight by party, which accounts for the change from last poll.

Jim said...

Michael @ 1:26 --

Re: 2000 polling a week before the election.

(1) The Bush DWI story hadn't really broken yet.

(2) Gore had a superior GOTV operation.

tylerxdurden said...

>> There are still sharecroppers?

Technically, yes. It's actually more common now than say 20 years ago. But they aren't exactly the images of old. The difference is that the sharecropper is likely to have several 100's of thousands of dollars in equipment. They are trying to run a larger scale operation for better margins but lack the capital/credit to buy the land in their area, or are just unable to convince the landowner (who inhereted the land or retired from farming) to sell at the price that the sharecropper is willing to pay.

Politowitz said...

The polls you mention had Bush without 50% in all the polls. Obama is over 50% in many polls and has an average around 50% furthermore Obama has higher leads than Bush.

You also forget that Bush's DUI did not come to light until days before the election.


All true. Also, Bush famously visited California on the advice of Karl Rove in a bogus exercise in showing bravado rather than continuing to fight in the battlegrounds. Something tells me Obama is not making the same mistake.

akoolromeo said...

Michael said...
THE TRUE REASON CRIST EXTENDED EARLY VOTING IN FLORIDA

A Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll gave McCain a 49-45 lead over Democrat Barack Obama among Floridians who have already voted. 1.4 million voters have gone to the polls early.

The Money Quote:

And Republicans continued to show a traditional strength, leading 50 percent to the Democrats’ 30 percent in the 1.2 million absentee ballots already returned.

*********
Since most of the Republican votes in early voting is coming from absentee voting, how does extending early voting help the Republicans? Since people mail in absentee ballots, it doesn't matter what the hours are?
Also, if 50% of absentees have voted Republican and 30% have voted Democrat? Who did the other 20% voting for?
The last I heard down here in Florida is that while Rpeublicans are leading Democrats in the absentee balloting by a 3-2 margin, the Democrats are leading the Republicans by a 2-1 margin in the in person early voting.
Last night, someone posted a Bloomberg poll from Florida that said Obama was leading in the early voting in Florida, so I don't know which number is correct. Either way, I expect McCain to win Florida in the end. The young voters are yet to show up in Florida as they have bene predicting.

Real Joe said...

FL

LOL

on election night we will see who wins FL

Pinyan said...

Just to tack on to the subgroup problem here... there are only 25-30 youth voters in the sample. 30 people leads to a margin of error of 18% and is pretty much the bare minimum for assuming a normal distribution.
The Jewish group has half of that? Then you don't report anything, because under no circumstance is 15 people enough to make any relevant conclusion from. The margin of error for a poll of 15 people (which is meaningless anyway, since the normality assumption is invalid) would be over 25%. Silly.

Mr. Norton said...

I am prone to distrust the polls and though I find myself watching them constantly, I frankly wish they weren’t even available to observe. It boils this election process down to little more than a horse race. You can bet on the outcome. You can watch the daily fluctuations and wonder why one pollster can have Obama up by 2 points, while another has him up by 13. And then there is John McCain, suggesting he has a plan, and that he will win and show everyone what idiots the pollsters and pundits have been. I wonder if the pollsters will offer some of their fees back if somehow their predictions and analysis has been...flawed. I mean, they have had Obama up by so much for so long, how this can be overturned....and if it is, will it be the will of the voters or some more sinister force. One hesitates to go down that road.

With a week left, there will be attacks, if possible even more acidic than last week, or the week before that. Vitriol will flow from candidate’s mouths to their supporter’s ears, and what they say will become fact, regardless of how ridiculous. The undecided will sit in their Lazy Boys and ponder whether they really need to decide at all. I hope they do, but I can see how they might want to turn off the cable news shows and watch some sports....the World Series is on Fox...nope scratch that...we’ll have to wait for that 3 inning spectacle for some night when winter has not made its presence known.

Still, it is our obsession with sports that prepares us to dissect the pre-election data. Every candidate’s strengths and weaknesses laid out like a batter’s tendencies against left or right handed pitching. How many sacks has he endured? How many fumbles? How many home runs? This has in fact been an election with few home runs, McCain was thought to have homered when he picked Sarah Palin, but upon further review, that looks more like a ground rule double...at best. In fact, because of that pick the McCain campaign has apparently started to point fingers. Like the Yankees...all that star power and no playoffs. Or worse, the Raiders....a rudderless ship bouncing from rock to rock in search of a safe place to anchor.

On Election Night, we will have game time. All the stats from the “pre-season” will tell us which states to watch, and we will be familiar with each candidate’s strongest spots on the map. But just like in real sports, upsets occurs. The team with the best quarterback, or ground game, does not always win. Sometimes, the other team just wants it more. Sometimes you play a better game, but don’t score enough points. Sometimes the ref makes a bad call that costs you a touchdown, or perhaps a state like Florida. Sometimes, there is a little known player on the other team, “Hanging Chad” who comes out of nowhere to steal the show.

President Bush came to power under the most suspicious circumstances, and his presidency, in some circles, was played more or less under protest. That it has ended so badly is either his just reward, or a punishment for our country for allowing the election process to be co-opted by those unimpressed by democracy. Beyond any other need, our country badly needs a good positive election...about things that matter, and without a whiff of tampering. We need a president installed by the majority, with a mandate to be above all, successful. To lead us, and restore our faith in the system. At the end of the day, this is what George W. Bush has deprived us of....faith.

There is not much pithy to say about the next week. I fear the October surprise...a tape from OBL, a terrorist plot, another plot to assassinate a candidate. Why can’t we all just get along, I wonder. Too late for that, I guess. So instead....lets not spend time looking for the silver bullet or the “gotcha moment”. Instead, this is a request that the candidates stop talking of their opponent and speak only of what they will do, how they will do it, and why we should give them something as valuable as our vote.
http://critpatriot.blogspot.com/

DaCoach said...

Since the current poll didn't indicate sample size, I used the PEW Research data of 25,000 interviews which broke down as:
Dems 38%
Repubs 28%
Inds 34%

Using those numbers the true numbers should reflect:
Obama 51%
McCain 40%
Undecided 9%

That's quite a difference.

egapre said...

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,

freefun0616 said...

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禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
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禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
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酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,

,

freefun0616 said...

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菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
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制服酒店工作,
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合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
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制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,

,