10.30.2008

Anatomy of a Polling Disaster

Carl Bialik of the Wall Street Journal has the scoop on the bizarre internals in that IBD/TIPP poll, which as we noted last week, found John McCain as having a substantial lead among young voters. I speculated that this result could only be possible if IBD/TIPP were radically undersampling young voters, and indeed that seems to have been the case:

Raghavan Mayur, president of TechnoMetrica, told me he was equally surprised by the results, saying the widespread perception that Obama is leading by a large margin in that group “is my perception, too.” He blamed the result on a small sample size. Each daily tracking poll includes about 1,000 interviews spread over the prior five days; each day a new set of survey respondents is added and the oldest set is discarded.

Ideally, Mayur would like to have 75 of all those respondents fall into the youngest age range. Some pollsters would have preferred more; this age group makes up 13% of the adult population, though its voting rate historically has been lower than average. His sample fell far short even of his lower goal, typically including just 25 to 30 respondents from age 18 to 24 — meaning just five or six new interviews with these young voters were being conducted each day. “We are not able to get to speak to as many as we would like to in that group,” he said.

He blamed that on several factors. For one thing, nearly one-third of adults in that age range lack landline phones, and Mayur’s pollsters don’t dial cellphones. (He points out that when calling cellphones, the chance that the person who picks up lacks a landline and is in the relevant age range is quite low.) Furthermore, among those who do live in households with landlines, young people may be away at school or in the military, Mayur said.

This small sample size at first didn’t trouble Mayur, as Obama led among these voters in the first three tracking polls. But when the results started to break McCain’s way as suddenly and dramatically as they did, Mayur began to question his own methodology. On the day McCain’s lead widened in this group to 52 points, Mayur added a footnote to the 18-to-24-year-old group: “Age 18-24 has much fluctuation due to small sample size.” He says he didn’t add a similar one to the Jewish subgroup, with just half the sample size as the young voters, because the Jews in his sample consistently stated a preference for Obama, as he expected.


Now, read those paragraphs carefully, because there are several problems with this pollster's process:

1. 75 young voters out of a 1,000-person panel is an awfully low target. In 2004, about 93 out of every 1,000 voters were age 18-24, according to statistics compiled by the Census Bureau. Now, we can debate about whether that number is going to go up this year (youth turnout increased by about 50 percent as a share of the Democratic primary electorate), but it's certainly not going to go down.

2. That notwithstanding, their target may be a moot point, it doesn't appear that the pollster felt any compulsion to weight for age-based demographics in the first place. "This small sample size at first didn’t trouble Mayur" ... well, it ought to have troubled him, because if only 3 percent of your sample consists of 18-24 year-olds, when that fraction should be closer to 9 percent even assuming no increase in youth voter support, you're going to significantly understate Barack Obama's margins. A superior pollster would have flagged this problem long before it became manifest to the entire world.

3. Lastly, Mayur appears to have "resolved" the problem by relying on non-random sampling techniques. Now, I don't want to be too critical of this decision, because Mayur has been kind enough to disclose his process. I'm sure that he isn't the first pollster to take a few shortcuts in the process of creating his sausage, and I'm sure that he won't be the last. Still, this would seem to violate one of the most basic premises of survey research, which is that of the random sample ... in "resolving" his young votes problem, Mayur could very easily have introduced a whole host of others, the effects of which may be harder to detect.

The point of all of this is that just because some pollster puts some numbers together in a PDF doesn't mean that they have any particular idea what they're doing. This pollster apparently made its name for itself because they had forecasted the results of the 2004 popular vote accurately. Notwithstanding that one result isn't anywhere near enough information to conclude that a pollster is strong, the 2004 election was perhaps the easiest one in history to forecast. The electorate was highly partisanized with few undecideds, and both bases turned out in roughly equal numbers; it wasn't just IBD/TIPP that got it right -- almost everyone did. This election is considerably more difficult to poll, and it's exposing the weaker pollsters.

361 comments

phil said...

Perhaps.

goatdan said...

Woo hoo! That last thread was getting *really* long.

MysticLaker said...

Nate,

Not as blazing, but you'll see questional tactics in the fox poll released today. They changed there party weighting from +7 last week for Dems, to + 1.6...

Thanks for the write up.

Steven said...

Nate, will this have any effect on the weighting you give to the IBD/TIPP polls?

Bridge said...

"few shortcuts in the process of creating his sausage"

Please, never use that terminology again. I'm going to vomit. Also, it's so "The Jungle". Ew ew ew. The whole thing. Ew.

Michelle said...

Nate, honestly, what would we do without you.

Dr. Matt said...

Faux has already name McGrampa the 44th President of the US. They are stating that any attempt to refute it after today will prove that voter fraud has taken place.

STepper said...

IBD pwned.

I see 2012 shaping up as Palin/Wurzelbacher for the Pubs, assuming neither of them is in jail and he decides to show up.

[aletic - I am very aletic. Wanna see me dunk?]

Arnaud said...

Warning: The new fox news poll has only DEM + 2 in party ID.

Arnaud said...

Warning: The new fox news poll has only DEM + 2 in party ID.

p smith said...

Nate, given your new found power, please devote a post to the latest Fox poll and the fact that its party ID gives the Dems only a 2 point advantage whereas all their previous polls showed the Dems with a 6 point party ID advantage or more.

Given that Politico, PoliticalWire, Pollster.com, Olbermann and others all regularly quote you, we can expose Fox and their spinning right now.

goatdan said...

I keyed on something in this that Nate didn't... when the pollster said that this didn't align with what “is my perception, too.” If you're truly trying to poll correctly and unbiased, wouldn't you try to go in with no bias whatsoever?

And if your numbers show a surprise, shouldn't you be able to defend your model?

While I didn't like this poll to begin with, to state that your perceptions play with the numbers that you are releasing instead of just the polls is perhaps the biggest admission that a pollster could make about why the polls move like they do. It also explains the Fox poll from earlier, as their pollster must have felt like Joe the Plumber was connecting with the base, which will drive people out to vote more.

Of course, none of this is based on fact, which means that the pollster themselves is perhaps the largest person responsible for the bias in their polls -- not the questions or the sample polled.

Bruce Barrett said...

This bothers me the most...

> "He says he didn’t add a similar one to the Jewish subgroup, with just half the sample size as the young voters, because the Jews in his sample consistently stated a preference for Obama, as he expected."

So, keep adjusting the methodology until you get what you expect, then stop.
That's not science you can believe in. ;-)

Kennyb said...

I don't know. It seems that most of the pollsters in this election are in agreement. And those that are not have a small chance of making a name for themselves, as opposed to just being one of the many others that, because of a more aggressive turn-out/likely voter model, are likely to get it right.

Michael said...

FOX
Obama-47
McCain-44

Don't call them biased, esp. considering they had Obama up 9 in the last poll.

TIGHTENING!!

Vince said...

heheh. nate said sausage. heheh. heheh.

Valpey said...

I very much hope that we pressure exit pollsters to find out things like who are cellphone only/never use their landline, who had participated in a telephone interview (and even if they remember by which firm and if so how did what they told the pollster differ from what they did in the voting booth etc.). Comparing the results of exit polls with what pollsters find via their telephone interviews could go a long way in learning what kinds of meta-inaccuracies are at play.

Word: hurba - Mmmm Sarah Palin, hurba hurba!

Rich Merritt said...

Can't wait to hear Wurzie belt out some country western tunes... on Saturday Night Live.

GoBama!

Michael said...

THE TRUE REASON CRIST EXTENDED EARLY VOTING IN FLORIDA

A Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll gave McCain a 49-45 lead over Democrat Barack Obama among Floridians who have already voted. 1.4 million voters have gone to the polls early.

The Money Quote:

And Republicans continued to show a traditional strength, leading 50 percent to the Democrats’ 30 percent in the 1.2 million absentee ballots already returned.

Darío said...

Michael is a republican, not a Hillary supporter.

theliberalcrab said...

Nate - First, I come from the school that they got lucky four years ago.

Second, their two person horse race was way off. They were only close on the three way contest. They were middle of the pack in the two way.

Third, maybe you can talk about why everyone is focusing on the two way polls instead of three ways. They present significantly different numbers. The good part is, it's probably good for the Dem's this year.

But everyone is wrappd up with TIPP when looking at the two way polls - that were definitely off!

theliberalcrab.wordpress.com

Jeff said...

Question on the state win % numbers. A few weeks ago, you had McCain as a 2.4% favorite to win in ND. Now it's a 5.6% favorite, even though no new polls have come out of that state. I understand it's because as a cluster of polls age, they become more equally relavant, meaning a tight cluster of rapid change will "undo" itself slowly over time.

But it seems weird that the win percentage would continually change even with no new information coming in.

Thoughts?

MysticLaker said...

No at Michael we won't call them bias. We'll call them stupid for showing us how they rigged the results.

Changing party ID from +6.2 to 1.6 in 1 week will do this. If you use the same party ID from last week it's 50-43 (just about perfect for the national average)....

mr2dco said...
This post has been removed by the author.
goatdan said...

@ Bruce -- Yup, we caught the same thing.

Seems like it would be akin to saying, "The Sky will be blue when I go outside tonight!" and then adjusting when you go outside until you see that the sky is blue through the window first so your results match your expectations.

Weird.

Arnaud said...

Fox is biased. Obama has the same support amoung his party than mccain and he leads by 5 amoung independents.

Why Obama leads only by 3 with these results? it's because they have only DEM +2 in the party ID.

David said...

"Nate, will this have any effect on the weighting you give to the IBD/TIPP polls?"

I am curious about that as well. He has consistently slammed Zogby yet gives his polls a fair amount of weight.

p smith said...

No, to be fair to Crist, he did it for fair and decent reasons. The absentee figures you quote are for mail in ballots. When you include in person early voting as well, Dems now have a 6 point lead over the Reps. Here is a link to the latest state figures.

Much as I enjoy abusing any Republican, I have to take my hat off to Crist. But then he is gay, so he's not a real Republican.

http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html

Mylegacy said...

Forget the youth vote and the Jews - I wanna know how much msg and nitrate they're putting in the sausage!

By the way, Fox is SO yesterday - MSNBC is SO today and Nate is SO Priceless!

Christopher said...

@STepper: I have my doubts about that; Palin has been a serious detriment to the Republicans this election cycle as far as undecideds are concerned (e.g. my dad), and that means that unless undecideds decide that Obama sucks really badly in these upcoming four years, choosing her as a presidential candidate would be a failing move.

Besides, we have no idea what the political situation will be three years from now... so any discussion of this topic is sort of unfounded speculation anyway.

theliberalcrab said...

Oh Michael - their weighting is 41/39% Democrat. That's one of the smaller weightings out there.

Yep, he was up 9 last week and there is some tightening - but it still isn't that close if the pollsters are correct at the weighting should be heavier for the Dems.

Please go back to Freeper.

InkStain said...

Nate doesn't arbitrarily assign weights to polls. They earn them based on past performance.

Michael said...

You don't hear me bitching at Newsweek and Pew and other pollsters giving the Dems a 10+ point party id edge.

DAILY KOS-R2000
They got the race at 5 with a 9 point party id edge. Trim it down to a 6 point party id edge, you got a dead heat..

goatdan said...

@ Jeff -- ND shows McCain with a 90% chance to win?

Darío said...

Last FOX News poll in 2004.

Kerry 48
Bush 46

Goooooood pollster.

MysticLaker said...

@michael....

Dailykos has been consistent. Pew and Newsweek have been consistent.

When you have a methodology and change it, it makes it very suspect.

Jack-be-nimble said...

This fox poll is not weighted Dem+2. The poll is not weighted at all. It is simply a different way of measuring the electorate. It does identify likely voters.

Opinion dynamics is a pollster with a terrible record. So whether it is Obama+9 or Obama+2 is irrelevant. A bad pollster is a bad pollster.

tamhas said...

I figured that one of the digs you would make was the implication that he didn't need to fiddle or not the Jewish figures because he got what he expected. Oh, so the adjustments are all about what we want or expect, not about scientific polling?

Thomas

Politowitz said...

Not to throw cold water on everyone, but it's worth having a look at the polling data from 2000:

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh2genT.htm

While Bush's polling numbers 5-6 days out were not quite as good as Obama's, they were consistently favorable and Gore's numbers were mired in the low 40s. And we know how that turned out. Here are the numbers for 11/1 and 11/2 (Bush/Gore):

11/2:

ABC: 48/45
CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP 48/42
FOX/OPINION DYNAMICS 43/43
HOTLINE 47/40
IBD/CSM/TIPP 47/42
MARIST COLLEGE 49/44
NEWSWEEK 45/43
REUTERS/MSNBC 45/42
VOTER.COM (BATTLEGROUND) 46/37

11/1

ABC 49/45
CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP 47/43
IBD/CSM/TIPP 48/43
REUTERS/MSNBC 45/42
VOTER.COM (BATTLEGROUND) 46/39

marco said...

What else would anyone expect of FAUX News???

Darío said...

Last Rasmussen 2004:

Bush 50
Kerry 47

Last Fox 2004:

Kerry 48
Bush 46


Today Rasmussen:

Obama 51
McCain 46

Today Fox:

Obama 47
McCain 44

Michael said...

Dario. Thanks.
Kerry led by 2 points
Bush won by 2.4 points
----------4.4 point difference

If we see a 4.4. point difference, McCain wins on Tuesday!!!

scottandwtb said...

Wait a sec...these pollsters make delicious sausages??!! Why wasn't I informed!

Christopher said...

Also: if the Fox poll is controlled by partisan hacks, why are they releasing numbers that will be goads for Democratic Party turnout ("we need to close this gap" vs "don't worry we've got this one easy")? In fact, why do biased pollsters in general tend to return the results that would make their party complacent? I have never understood this.

Voice of the Midwest said...

FOX
Obama-47
McCain-44

Their party ID has shrunk from a +6 or +7 for the Dems for the past seven weeks to +1.6 advantage to the Dems on this poll?

Use the +6 and the margin is 50-41 to Obama.

Michael: don't be too excited. They are tweaking with the manifold to get more air into the engine. They need the appearance of a horse race to keep the unexcited loyalists in their ratings corner (massive drop lately).

Wednesday morning, they can tell their audience that vote fraud occurred and Obama is President with a margin of 52-45; or, McCain's gestapo will cause enough chaos in the MOE states to pluck a few, they won't report on it, and they will make a case for a McCain Presidency with a call for investigations in MOE states.

How you can support this party after 8 years is boggling to the normal mind.

Doug B said...

[nit]

The past tense of the verb "to forecast" is "forecast", not "forecasted."

[/nit]

David said...

"Nate doesn't arbitrarily assign weights to polls. They earn them based on past performance."

You can't discredit a pollster(Zogby) and then keep using his polls with high weights and expect to maintain credibility for long.

Darío said...

Michael, states wins the election, not the popular vote.
And Obama is more solid in the state polls than national polls.
Anyway, Obama is leaning all the national polls.

InkStain said...

"You can't discredit a pollster(Zogby) and then keep using his polls with high weights and expect to maintain credibility for long."

You can't start introducing your personal opinions into a statistical model and maintain credibility for any length of time at all.

STepper said...

@Christopher

Have you ever heard of satire? Perhaps the Wurzelbacher running mate would have tipped you. Or the comment that they would both have to be out of jail and he would first have to show up.

No? Well, then, unlike John Kerry I will not explain it for you, even though it Depends.

[ingoscer]

larsonown said...

Hey Nate,

Nice appearance on MSNBC yesterday.

I agree with your assessments here.

David said...

"You can't start introducing your personal opinions into a statistical model and maintain credibility for any length of time at all."

No argument with that.

However, what about Nate giving credence to polls he discredits?

Michael said...

Bush Leads on November 2, 2000 just before election. Gore won the popular vote:

11/2:

ABC: 48/45
CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP 48/42
FOX/OPINION DYNAMICS 43/43
HOTLINE 47/40
IBD/CSM/TIPP 47/42
MARIST COLLEGE 49/44
NEWSWEEK 45/43
REUTERS/MSNBC 45/42
VOTER.COM (BATTLEGROUND) 46/37

Goes to show we could see a repeat, as McCain voter, I don't want to see us lose the electoral college though!

SHERWICK said...

not ONE of the hundreds of national polls done by the many different pollsters have given mcgramps a national lead in over 40 days. absolutely amazing!

Darío said...

Rasmussen,

Hagan leads by six in the NC senate.

InkStain said...

"However, what about Nate giving credence to polls he discredits?"

My advice to him would be to stop discrediting polls. It's been a little awkward how he keeps doing that.

Jeff NYC Dem said...

Michael, it's 50 state races, not one national race....you're reaching.

arnieh said...

Dario. Thanks.
Kerry led by 2 points
Bush won by 2.4 points
----------4.4 point difference

If we see a 4.4. point difference, McCain wins on Tuesday!!!

IN YOUR DREAMS !!!!!

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

What are the possibilities that Obama wins a landslide but looses the popular vote?

Now that would be a hoot.

Darío said...

Is more probable for McCain to win the popular vote than the electoral college.
Obama is more solid in the states polls than national polls.

Steven said...

Ok......

So early voting in all swing states is super high.....BUT many are reporting that among the early voters youth-turn out is the same as 2004......What are we to make of this?

SvK

Steve_OH said...

@Jeff

"But it seems weird that the win percentage would continually change even with no new information coming in."

That's the demographic correlations kicking in. If ND hasn't had a recent poll, but a state with similar demographics (e.g., MT or SD) has, then the results of the demographically similar poll can have an effect on the ND numbers.

["icater" - someone who is always eager to please]

goatdan said...

If I'm not mistaken, Nate has questioned (rightfully so) the Zogby Interactive polls, and he assigns them a 1/4th weight. The Zogby polls themselves he has said are more reliable, and therefore they do get the higher rating.

People on these boards have questioned the inclusion of the Zogby Interactive polls at all.

David said...

"My advice to him would be to stop discrediting polls. It's been a little awkward how he keeps doing that."

At times it feels like the local independent weekly that spends way too much ink slamming the mainstream daily. The small paper does great work, but hurts themselves when they do that.

Christopher said...

@STepper: I'm usually this bad at detecting sarcasm, plus I didn't recognize Wurzelbacher at the time of comment. Nevermind ;)

InkStain said...

re Bush 2000 numbers:

Bush was polling much lower on average than Obama. Undecideds broke hard to Gore because of Bush's DUI. There were a lot of undecideds in that election.

If Obama were polling several points lower than he is now, Bush 2000 would be a good comparison. And like Bush 2000, he has a structural advantage in the EC that gives him the victory if it's close, even if he slightly loses the national vote.

And unlike Bush 2000, early voting has already decided the election. Obama is safe no matter what in Kerry + IA + NM, and early voting has already sealed Nevada, so he's got his 269 in the bank, even if there were a massive break towards McCain.

Jeff NYC Dem said...

l_d_o_f: As interesting as that would be to see, McCain would have to SLAUGHTER obama in all the red states and lose by fractions of a percent in all the blue states. If that happened, I would fear mass litigation, numerous recounts and McCain named president by the supreme court. I don't want to see that scenario...I'd have to move to zimbabwe.

Jason said...

Shoddy methodology is GREAT NEWS!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!!!!

markymark said...

I think that 2000 is not a good comparrison for all sorts of reasons. That was always a close election, always within a few points. This years, save for the McCain bounce period, has never been close, and is being played out in an atmosphere far more toxic for GOP than in 2000.

I think what those stats show us with hindsight is that the pollsters were lowballing Gore at that time, whereas if anything pollsters are lowballing Obama at the moment.

David said...

"What are the possibilities that Obama wins a landslide but looses the popular vote?

Now that would be a hoot."

What is a scenario where that could happen?

All blue states end up very close, but the few red states give 90%+ of the vote to McCain?

grinder said...

IBD and Fox are obviously goosing their numbers to impel McNasty's people to turn out. If they told the truth, McNasty's supporters would give up and it would turn into a landslide.

nanorich said...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7DF1F3BF93AA15753C1A964958260

THE 1992 CAMPAIGN; Clinton Poll Lead Narrows

Published: October 29, 1992

Four new nationwide polls show Gov. Bill Clinton's lead over President Bush narrowing, ranging from 2 to 10 percentage points, and Ross Perot with 16 and 20 percent of the vote.

When these polls are averaged, Mr. Clinton leads with 42 percent, followed by Mr. Bush at 36 percent and Mr. Perot at 17 percent.

More nostalgia for y'all

Clinton's Hoarse Message To Backers:'Don't Give Up' : A Bitter Bush Decries Press 'Witch-Hunt'

The daily "tracking" poll conducted by the Gallup organization for CNN moved from a one-point lead for Mr. Clinton on Friday to three points on Saturday and sevenpoints on Sunday, suggesting that the Democrat had rebounded from the slide seen last week.

http://www.iht.com/articles/1992/11/02/camp.php

MysticLaker said...

@david...

Why some discrediting folks who use bad methodology or manipulate results?

The fact is that people look at polls like "gospel". It's hard enough to parse them when their integrity is in-tact, but when both methodological or bias comes into play they pollsters should be held accountable. Especially, if they are being sponsored by media outlets...

David said...

"If I'm not mistaken, Nate has questioned (rightfully so) the Zogby Interactive polls, and he assigns them a 1/4th weight. The Zogby polls themselves he has said are more reliable, and therefore they do get the higher rating.

People on these boards have questioned the inclusion of the Zogby Interactive polls at all."

There are Zogby state polls that are 3/4 and 4/4.

Charles said...

What's FOX NEWS going to say to this:

CBS/NYT Poll: Obama Maintains Double Digit Lead
A "reliable source" tells Ben Smith that the CBS/New York Times poll due out later today will have Sen. Barack Obama leading Sen. John McCain by 11 points among likely voters, "ticking down two points since their poll a week ago, but still a very, very wide margin in the waning days of the contest."

marco said...

inkstain: why do you believe PA is already "in the bank"? There's no early vote in PA and (at least to me) what really counts is turnout and VOTES, not polls.

DISCLAIMER: I am a registered Democrat in Arizona who voted early for Obama.

goatdan said...

On the topic of discrediting the polls, I think that Nate has to point out stuff like this -- otherwise, it gives us the ability to question why some polls are weighted heavier than others, and debate whether or not they should be included.

Nate has pointed out the outliers and then explained why they are outliers. And just because a poll is an outlier doesn't necessarily make it completely useless, but I'd rather understand why some polls are slanted like they are.

Zechaplunga said...

Doug -

Both forecast and forecasted are correct, according to both my dictionaries.

____________________

ologiche - an exclusive market in very rich Russians

newsinOH said...

With friends like these . . .

“The most amazingly bankrupt line I’ve seen in this campaign is Barack Obama campaign’s repeated attempt to link John McCain to President Bush,” Davis said on a conference call with reporters. “John McCain held the Bush administrations feet the fire more than anyone else for the first four years of the administration.”


And the last four years, when approval ratings were really tanking and some opposition (with Dems in Congress to help out for at least 2 of those years)?

WORST.CAMPAIGN.EVER.

Voice of the Midwest said...

FOX is an adjunct wing of the Republican Party - that is no secret. All they are doing is ginning up the uninspired base who the GOP is having a tough time getting excited.

In 2004, Bush had some issues in his corner that could make a close win believable three days out.

McCain in 2008 does not have that in his corner. To win, it will take a ground game of thuggery and obstruction at a grand level.

If anyone sees this at a poll, pull the thugs aside and tell them to leave. If they don't, call the police. The McCain campaign is instructing poll workers to challenge as many voters as possible. The challenge itself is electioneering on behalf of a campaign who has declared such a strategy. Electioneering is illegal.

Vote, be vigilent, and when they flash you their knife, pull out a bazooka. Men and women died for your right to vote.

Duct tape these Nazis at the polls and toss them in a janitor's closet.

InkStain said...

"inkstain: why do you believe PA is already "in the bank"? There's no early vote in PA and (at least to me) what really counts is turnout and VOTES, not polls."

Because I don't wear a tinfoil hat that believes that somehow a mass of polling showing Obama up in at least the high double-digits is all going to be wrong.

I don't believe that McCain has any chance at winning a state in which he has not polled ahead one single time in the entire general election period.

joel said...

Michael wrong numbers
last polling was 11-5 2000

TIPP BUSH 47. 9 GORE 46.00

They pretty much nailed Bushes number. Tipp is usually a pretty accurate pollster, I assume they are polling using 2004 data so if turnout is high they will be way off, but overall they have a fairly accurate history.
Anyway it`s all about state polling, so lets see where that stands on monday.

phil said...

The past tense of the verb "to forecast" is "forecast", not "forecasted."

Either is acceptable. People have been saying "forecasted" since the sixteenth century.

Publius said...

FReeper trolls on Fivethirtyeight.com are Great News!!! For John McCain!!!

Potion said...

p smith said...

Much as I enjoy abusing any Republican, I have to take my hat off to Crist. But then he is gay, so he's not a real Republican.

http://elections.gmu.edu/early_vote_2008.html

------
He's not gay, he's just really focussed on maintaining that tan.

WV: clutinab = What O'Reilly yells out in his nightmares about a blue Florida in 2008.

Thelma Lou said...

Forget partisan bias, what's more troubling here is the lack of scientific theory and statistical knowledge.

This poll isn't anti-statistics, it's non-statistics.

boulder-liberal said...

"Faux has already name McGrampa the 44th President of the US. They are stating that any attempt to refute it after today will prove that voter fraud has taken place."

Why should we care what Faux has to say? When we win with 325+ EVs and 58+ senators, we should govern like we have a pair (thanks, SNL). Bush sure did.

Res Cogitans said...

I just wanted to add that this pollster makes another mistake in his admitted confirmation bias:

"He says he didn’t add a similar [disclaimer] to the Jewish subgroup, with just half the sample size as the young voters, because the Jews in his sample consistently stated a preference for Obama, as he expected."

When things go the way he wants/expects them to, he doesn't question his improper methods, but once they show him something he doesn't like, he adds a disclaimer.

He should not only seek to correct the problems in his sampling and analysis of data which seems off to him. He should also strive to correct the problems in his other sampling subgroups and analyses.

PorridgeGun said...

So basically, the FOX Propaganda Network changed the weighting of it's fairly objective national poll close to the election to spike McCain's numbers? Figures.


BTW, I don't blame them. What's the point in undercutting the 24/7 smearing of Obama if their own poll shows him comfortably in the lead? That'd be a downer for their FReeptard viewers.

Dan said...

Given that you can choose which polls to include and which polls to leave off, which polls are accurate and which are inaccurate, etc., seems to me like you could just pick whoever you want to win and back it up with pretty charts. Hmmm who do you want to win, I forget?

Nate your biases will be your undoing...

You should stick with baseball and graphic design.

newsinOH said...

It also amazes me that the Mc campaign remains tone deaf to the difference between attacking a candidate on their policies (i.e. Mc's policies are like Bush's policies which, in fact, they are in most regards) v. attacking the candidate personally (guilt by association).

Lord knows there's PLENTY that could have been tossed out in ads about Mc's past conduct and associations outside of his direct political alliances yet NONE of them were ever aired by O on TV.

Whine, whine, whine. Can't wait for Tuesday.

Dead Cat Bounce said...

"The polls were off in one direction last time, so they'll be off in the same direction, in the same degree, this time."

Got to love that high-level statistical analysis lol.

Mylegacy said...

The Electoral College belongs in hte dustbin of history.

I can see 50 separate states vote for their respective Governors BUT the US of A is only one country and has one President. A New York City banker has one vote a sharecropper in the deep south has one vote.

BOTH are EQUAL as Americans - both votes should count EQUALLY towards the Presidency. Our system is APPALLING!

Mathis said...

Anybody have the state Rasmussen numbers for this afternoon?

Bush Whacked said...

For why Nate points out blatant methodological errors, please see the subtitle at the top of the page:

"Electoral Projections Done Right"

Mason said...

Shoddy methodology is [the only] GREAT NEWS!! FOR JOHN MCCAIN!!!!!!!

I fixed your meme.

InkStain said...

"Nate your biases will be your undoing..."

Is he leaving polls out of his simulation?

Brad said...

Dan-

You are an idiot. He still adds the polls to the model, so you are wrong. Second, the pollster himself just said his poll sucks, is a polling site supposed to ignore that?

Go back to the freeper site....

InkStain said...

It probably wouldn't kill Nate to point out the methodological flaws in a poll with an O-friendly result.

Maybe he has and I'm forgetting...

goatdan said...

@ David - "There are Zogby state polls that are 3/4 and 4/4."

Yes. Zogby polls. If you lool though, the Zogby Interactive polls (the discredited ones) are all weighted with 1/4th. In fact, the ZI poll for Ohio on 10/19 is weighted lower than a poll from 9/29, and there are only two polls weighted less than it that were done in the month of October, both of which were nearly two weeks prior.

marco said...

inkstain: AMEN! But please remember to VOTE! As good as these polls look today, I'm only counting my chicken on November 4! I know how it was like in 2000 and 2004, so I'm not taking ANY chances!

Dead Cat Bounce said...

Given that Nate is completely open about his methodology, how about actually reading it, pointing out exactly how it's biased, and explaining what he should do differently.

Anything short of that is pathetic trolling.

newsinOH said...

On the issue of thuggery and suppression at the polls, Colorado was one of the hot spots of potential suppression with a large number of voters purged from the rosters. However, those voters will now be able to vote provisionally BUT with a presumption that their votes are valid unless proven otherwise.

This substantially decreases the risk of suppression there.

InkStain said...

" I know how it was like in 2000 and 2004, so I'm not taking ANY chances!"

In 2000, a very close race occurred. In 2004, the guy who was winning the entire final month won by the margin everyone expected him to win by.

I will remember to vote, though. Mark one in ND for Obama and Measure 1.

Voice of the Midwest said...

"Hagan leads by six in the NC senate."

She will win by 8 or 9 points. Liddy Dole may be one of the least effective Senators in American history.

GA: Martin 52 Chambliss 47 I 1
MN: Franken 42 Coleman 40 Barkley 18
KY: McConnell 50 Lunsford 50 (?)
MS: Musgrove 50 Wicker 48 I 2

House:

AK01: Berkowitz 48 Young 40 I 12
IL10: Seals 52 Kirk 48
IN03: Mantango 53 Souder 47

john.cormac said...

Hey - any chance someone (uh, Nate) from either 538 or some other media outlet could get Fox's pollster to go on the record as to why the switch?

Might be a good teaching moment; I for one am not exactly following what the pollster did? Is the sample they took simply different or did they take their sample and change assumptions as to what the turnout would be broken down upon party lines?

MysticLaker said...

@ink

The dkos tracking poll has a low weight because of democrat bias. Nate has said this before.

Real Joe said...



Obama responded to whether McCain's Khalidi attack will hurt with Jewish voters in Florida: “No, I think the McCain boomerang yesterday landed somewhere between their nose and their forehead.”

David said...

"The Electoral College belongs in hte dustbin of history.

I can see 50 separate states vote for their respective Governors BUT the US of A is only one country and has one President. A New York City banker has one vote a sharecropper in the deep south has one vote.

BOTH are EQUAL as Americans - both votes should count EQUALLY towards the Presidency. Our system is APPALLING!"

There are still sharecroppers?

If you want to change it, start a grassroots movement for a constitutional amendment.

Since most states with large populations are blue, the electoral college helps republicans, since 1 vote in wyoming is worth more than 1 vote in california or new york.

InkStain said...

"The dkos tracking poll has a low weight because of democrat bias. Nate has said this before."

Hmm, I'm intrigued. Did he really lower the weight manually because of that, or did it naturally have it's weight lowered by being out of line with other polling?

TBender said...

Anyone who thinks Nate is going to play favorites with the polls apparently doesn't understand that by doing that he would be damaging his credibility in his real vocation.

A statisician who cooks the books in baseball only has 1 client...Scott Boras. :)

Jeff NYC Dem said...

Dan said...
Nate your biases will be your undoing...


Dan, he includes all the polls and weights them according to their reputation and historical accuracy. There is no more scientific way to do it. Looking into the internals of a poll and exposing flaws in the pollster's methodology is not bias, it's honesty.

If you want to see cherry picking, go to Real Clear Politics, they exclude polls, Nate simply give less weight to polls that have been shown to be less credible.

PorridgeGun said...

I take it all national polls were completed before last night?

I've been critical of Obama in recent days, but last night's Florida rally with Bill Clinton was better than expected. I've never seen Clinton so enthusiastic on the stump for another Democratic candidate, other than Hillary. You'd think the primaries never happened. They should definately campaign together in Ohio, and Pennsylyvania, if necessary.

David said...

"Yes. Zogby polls. If you lool though, the Zogby Interactive polls (the discredited ones) are all weighted with 1/4th. In fact, the ZI poll for Ohio on 10/19 is weighted lower than a poll from 9/29, and there are only two polls weighted less than it that were done in the month of October, both of which were nearly two weeks prior."

A discredited poll should have a weight of zero. You can't invalidate data and then include it. I would get booted out of my CS masters program if I did that!

MysticLaker said...

@ink.

You'll have to go back and try and find it (I don't have time now). I believe it was a combination of weighting and the first time doing a tracking poll.

kermitfog said...

Whoa... Where did all of the serious McCain supporters come from all of a sudden? Did I miss something?

All those posted poll results from 2004 show one important difference -- Obama has been consistenly polling at 50-52. Bush never polled that high before the election. I don't care how close McCain makes it--he can tighten all he wants.

WV: PROFFIES, as in, Palin enjoys benefitting from the oil company PROFFIES and then pretending she doesn't.

InkStain said...

"A discredited poll should have a weight of zero. You can't invalidate data and then include it. I would get booted out of my CS masters program if I did that!"

Until and unless a pollster is caught actually fabricating numbers, there's no reason to exclude anything. No methodology is perfect.

Brad said...

Bill is finally on board as he finally believes Obama will win...poor Bill, late to the party means less power in the coming administration.

Dead Cat Bounce said...

Funny, though, biases and cherry-picking or not, 538, RCP, and Pollster have all got it at about O+5-6 right now.

We've got far more data this time around than last, and it's all fairly consistent.

newsinOH said...

p.gun

Bill Clinton is doing a whole bunch of rallies in OH and PA--a whole bunch--in the remaining time. Hillary as well. O is on his own hitting even other areas and states

Kevin said...

Research 2000 Indiana:
Obama 47
McCain 47

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Blogger Real Joe said...



Obama responded to whether McCain's Khalidi attack will hurt with Jewish voters in Florida: “No, I think the McCain boomerang yesterday landed somewhere between their nose and their forehead.”

Did he really say this? If so that is friggin' hilarious.

PA John said...

Hmm, I'm intrigued. Did he really lower the weight manually because of that, or did it naturally have it's weight lowered by being out of line with other polling?

I seem to remember that had nothing to do with it - it was the fact it has a small sample size. I didn't think Nate penalized poll based on that. Strategic Vision polls are rated high because they have a large same, and are not penalized because of their (R) lean.

Davis said...

Allow me to be the second commenter distressed by this line:

He says he didn’t add a similar one to the Jewish subgroup, with just half the sample size as the young voters, because the Jews in his sample consistently stated a preference for Obama, as he expected.

The sort of thinking represented here should set off numerous alarm bells -- it's precisely the opposite of taking a scientific approach. The validity of a poll lies in appropriate use of statistics, not in its alignment with expectations.

TBender said...

Gibbs said it, per Ben Smith.

Voice of the Midwest said...

They have finally released the ASU poll that I told everyone they forced into a roll last week for Arizona. It came out O 46 M 48.

Remember, 35% of the voters voting in Arizona at any given time have never pulled a ballot with John McCain's name on it. The state grows at a double digit pace year to year with new folks from the Midwest and Northeast.

Also, notice Alaska is trending over 40% for Obama/Biden. This is not good for Young and Stevens.

shadowguidex said...

No point arguing over whether it's +3 or +7 or +11, in the end, all we need is Iowa, New Mexico, and one other state - doesn't matter which, and this is over. +3 is more than enough to flip a state.

JPGoldberg said...

Is a random sample really required? I had always assumed that pollster's used stratified samples.

Of course you want randomness within each stratum, but there is no need for the sample as a whole to mirror the voting population if the discrepancies between the population and the sample are taken properly into account.

markymark said...

I still think that the Electoral College is necessary. It means that all regions and all states are valued by candidates. (Well in principle at least) Candidates can't just run up a score in populus states that favour them and cling on from there. Also the EC is actually very accurate in mirroring the popular vote, and even magnifying it, in most cases. 2000 was an exception really in a lot of ways.

Also it would be far easier to discover voter fraud in a smaller state wide election (and Presidential elections are effectively 50 state wide elections) than in a massive national election.

KMartDad said...

In 2000, Bush was running against the third term of Clinton. Under Clinton we enjoyed peace & prosperity, though people certainly had developed some "Clinton fatigue". Bush beat Gore because there is a natural inclination after 8 years of one party to turn to the other. Now we have not only the natural inclination working in Obama's favor, but we enjoy neither peace nor prosperity under Bush. For McCain to stage a comeback under such conditions when he is so far down in both the popular vote and electoral vote would be so counterintuitive as to not be worthy of serious consideration. In other words, I don't EVEN want to go there.

Christopher said...

For what it's worth: The "McCain boomerang" comment was Robert Gibbs, an Obama advisor, not Obama himself.

Real Joe said...

yes he did

Mark is running the quote

http://thepage.time.com/

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Gibbs is awesome.

He's like the complete opposite of Rove but on our side.

David said...

"Blogger Real Joe said...



Obama responded to whether McCain's Khalidi attack will hurt with Jewish voters in Florida: “No, I think the McCain boomerang yesterday landed somewhere between their nose and their forehead.”

Did he really say this? If so that is friggin' hilarious."

Looks like he really did say that!

InkStain said...

Has it really been a whole week since the last time we did the EC argument?

I reiterate all my previous arguments in favor of it, and that's it.

Cugel said...

It's a waste of pixels to critique daily tracker polls at this point in the campaign anyway! They are almost totally meaningless!

The only polls that matter now are the state polls and we have HUNDREDS of them, many in battleground states. Florida had three new ones yesterday and today there'll be lots more to look at.

Even if McCain's national polling actually climbed into a virtual tie with Obama, it wouldn't matter at all because MUCH of that surge will be coming from totally irrelevant states!

The Daily Kos/Research 2000 tracker poll shows that:

McCain gained 7% over the previous 4 days (October 25-28) in the Northeast, 7% in the South, but only 2% in the Midwest, and 0% in the West.

Well, it looks great on a poll to say that "McCain is surging! Look at these numbers!"

But, gaining ground in Alabama and Tennesee and New York isn't worth spit to McCain right now!

He won't pick up a SINGLE Northeastern state, no matter what he does. (Example: He moved from around -22% down to -15% in New Jersey, Whoopie!).

The only Southern states that matter are Florida and North Carolina. But, we have Florida polling showing that, although McCain has moved up a bit in the polls, he still trails narrowly in Florida. In North Carolina McCain seems to have moved back into a narrow lead.

Something similar may have happened in Missouri, which shares many Southern voter demographics with other southern states.

So, McCain's "surge" has (arguably) helped him in Florida, North Carolina and Missouri! In NONE of those states has his numbers gone up anything like 7%.

That means McCain is gaining ground in Deep-Red states like Tennessee and Texas, as well as deep blue states like New York and Maryland that are either in his column already or will never in hell vote for him!

What good is that? He's LOST ground in the only Southern state that really matters: Virginia! And in the West, he's LOST ground in NV, CO, NM. IA is long gone.

Nevada is a total DEATH BLOW to McCain! Even if he flips PA (won't happen) he STILL loses if Obama wins: CO + IA + NM + NV + VA.

V-code: "recroc" as in Barack will "recroc" the vote!

Real Joe said...

oops !

its Gibbs not Obama

Jeff said...

Hey, if conservatives/Republicans want to be happy with McCain still failing to break through the 45 barrier in a poll that has way too many Republicans in it, that's fine with me.

goatdan said...

For those of you wondering why Nate hasn't discredited the out of whack Obama polls, I think the biggest reason is because the media completely ignores them. Why discredit something no one is paying attention to?

These polls that Fox and Drudge point at to show that McCain actually isn't doing so bad are more important to really look at than a poll that even democrats are ignoring.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

cugel, will you bet your nuts on it?

I just want to see how sure he is of himself. :)

Brad said...

We need the EC, it makes following the election a much more interesting intellectual endeavor.

word: "tiesquar"

newsinOH said...

That boomerang comment is one of the funniest lines of the campaign; let me revise that to it's one of the intentionally funniest lines of the campaign!

R. E. Hartman said...

Nate, a quick question. Or two. I read an article today (kansas star, I think... beyond biased) that said 2/3 of registered voters are refusing to answer the polls.

They didn't give a source, or even talk about which poll this is true of, but it does raise concern.

A) Have you heard this re: any of the polls?

b) If it's true, is that dispropotionately higher than in other election years?

Thanks in advance if you find time to answer this. And Great job, I am officially a 538 junkie, checking many times per day.

word: sortedd. McCain's last ad: all of the assorted sordid attacks rolled into one.

PJ McIlvaine said...

Just tell me that Obama's going to win in a landslide!!!

markymark said...

Anyone else think its a bit odd that the third story on the page is 'Palin talks national security with advisers'? I mean how come thats a story? Surely she is doing that most days. Ohhhhh wait now I get why she has been such a flop!

phil said...

Gallup expanded: Obama 51 - McCain 44
Gallup traditional: Obama 50 - McCain 45

madamerica said...

Why do you guys keep comparing Obama 2008 to Bush 2000? Obama is the DEMOCRATIC candidate, Bush was not. Maybe all those polls in 2000 were underestimating the Dem turnout, which might be happening again this year. How anyone can find any parallels between this race and that in 2000 is beyond me.

PeteKent said...

Here’s Obama in his own words to the Chicago Sun-Times on November 4, 2004: “I was elected yesterday. . . . I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I’ve never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I’m immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn’t make sense. So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I’m the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois. . . . I am not running for president in 2008.”

Excerpted from the Audacity of Humility by Katherine Ernst in City Journal. http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon1028ke.html

What a liar Obama is! And you wonder why we call you Kool-Aide drinkers!

Dead Cat Bounce said...

Sounds like more desperate poll-bashing to me.

SHERWICK said...

The Obama Juggernaught thunders along, leaving the McCain 1947 Oldsmobile puffing along somewhere in the distance..

phil said...

Blogger InkStain said...
Hmm, I'm intrigued. Did he really lower the weight manually because of that, or did it naturally have it's weight lowered by being out of line with other polling?


Research2K has a lower weight because of sample size and because it's their first national tracker. There's no manual adjustment.

David said...

Am I the only one that considers comments from high level advisors in a campaign to have come from the candidate him/her self?

Who one hires to speak for them is very meaningful.

PorridgeGun said...

newsinOH said...

p.gun

Bill Clinton is doing a whole bunch of rallies in OH and PA--a whole bunch--in the remaining time. Hillary as well. O is on his own hitting even other areas and states



I still hope Obama and Clinton do it again. This was the first big rally I've seen this election that looked genuinely fun and spontaneous. If you saw Obama and Bill Clinton waiting to go on stage last night, you could see the hatchet was buried. There was zero tension, and they were laughing and joking. I heard both camps have worked together in recent months, but I honestly think Palin was the ultimate ice breaker.



With a few minor exceptions, the Clintons have done their image a shitload of good since the convention. Hillary's favorables are higher than they've ever been.

David said...

"Why do you guys keep comparing Obama 2008 to Bush 2000? Obama is the DEMOCRATIC candidate, Bush was not."

The party of the candidates are irrelevant to these discussions of similar circumstances.

I think the most relevant is the 92 election.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

OpenID PeteKent said...

"What a liar Obama is! And you wonder why we call you Kool-Aide drinkers!"

You got us PeteKent. That's it, I'm voting McCain now. Thanks for pointing this out. I mean, can you imagine the audacity of someone to change their mind. What a spineless empty suit!

Mason said...

David-
The bigger question in that article is what BHO is going to wear trick-or-treating with the girls.

My vote is for a McCain mask.

Voice of the Midwest said...

"What a liar Obama is! And you wonder why we call you Kool-Aide drinkers!" (PeteKent)

Hey, Quayle...it is Kool-Aid...not Kool-Aide.

Well, I would rather have Obama as you describe him than a man who could not be broken by the Viet Cong but so easily broken by George W. Bush and Karl Rove.

My how power makes people lesser than they could be...

Pete, I feel sorry for you.

markymark said...

petekent,

I think probably virtually every candidate for the President has at some point in the past said they are not running for President of the US. I mean do you seriously think anyone is going to not vote for someone because 4 years ago he saif he isn't planning on running for higher office?

SPence said...

Black Sarah Palin Skit

What if she was a basketball mom from Brooklyn

David said...

"What a liar Obama is! And you wonder why we call you Kool-Aide drinkers!"

Let's discuss all of the lies McCain said just yesterday.

Obama is a politician. But unlike most of them and definitely unlike McCain and Palin, Obama has a conscience,intelligence, and a thoughtful approach to decision making.

sfergus483 said...

Stu Rothenberg was just on MSNBC with Chuck Todd, going over Senate races.

Rothenberg is about as inside the beltway a political analyst around; in past cycles Dems have accused him of being a GOP shill or worse.

At the end of the Senate discussion, Stu said to Chuck, referring to earlier discussions on the Presidential race:

(paraphrasing) - I have to compliment you for making it sound like the presidential race isn't over.

Chuck smiled, obviously couldn't say a lot (and didn't try to contradict him)

(sweat)

shadowguidex said...

"What a liar Obama is! And you wonder why we call you Kool-Aide drinkers!"


Well, lets say that if, at the time he said that, he truly meant it, and in his head it wasn't a lie. THEN, a couple years later, he decided to run for president. Does this qualify as a lie? You have to take temporal consideration into mind before you decide what is and is not a lie. EVERYONE can look back on their past and find a shit-ton of things that they have changed their minds about. Does this make us all liars, or just make us all human?

To sum up - pete, you're a douchbag.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

Blogger David said...

Am I the only one that considers comments from high level advisors in a campaign to have come from the candidate him/her self?"

I'd say that's pretty accurate. I had just asked if Obama said it directly because he usually isn't that snarky on the spot.

SPence said...

http://newsone.blackplanet.com/elections/black-sarah-palin-sketch/

Chi said...

Wasn't there supposed to be some Rasmussen state polls by 3pm ET today?

PeteKent said...

If you own stocks, Obama and the Dems will go to war on you. Read about it in US News.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/10/30/why-democrats-will-target-the-investor-class-in-2009.html

Scary stuff!

I feel sorry for those of you who have yet to make any money, but aspire to it.

Obama thinks you should be content with a 3% rate of return and no 401K.

Real Joe said...

Puma Pete

:P

NotYourBlog said...

NH Republican quits McCain campaign to back Obama

Linkies

mendrip: no, not going there.

The Game said...

IBD TIPP 10/30

O: 47.7
M: 43.6

Yeah, really tightening up now

Real Joe said...

ant

where are you ?

ogmb said...

“The most amazingly bankrupt line I’ve seen in this campaign is Barack Obama campaign’s repeated attempt to link John McCain to President Bush,” Davis said on a conference call with reporters.

*** 95 PERCENT ***

[enest - an online home for birds]

madamerica said...

The party of the candidates are irrelevant to these discussions of similar circumstances.

I disagree. And what are similar circumstances? Only the numbers look similar to me.

Brad said...

Ras polls were due at 3?

?????????????????????

Eric said...

Most recent polls in 3 states McCain has to win:

Virginia- 19/19 have Obama ahead
Nevada- 9/10 have Obama ahead, 1 tie
Ohio- 18/20 have Obama ahead
Colorado- 25/28 have Obama ahead, 1 tie

...and 1 state McCain probably has to win...

Pennsylvania- 34/34 have Obama ahead


Good luck Johnny !

michiganmaine said...

You're doing heck of a job, Michael!

Michael: "You don't hear me bitching at Newsweek and Pew and other pollsters giving the Dems a 10+ point party id edge."


Unfortunately we have heard you bitch about this too much. You wrote up a whole lot of bunk research on this very point on your blog. At least be a little honest.

What does it say that the only reason that the Fox poll has changed so much is because, AS THEY OPENLY ADMIT, they changed the party id weight? It is quite clear that they are setting up a narrative to claim that the race was close but stolen by ACORN etc..

Michael: "If we see a 4.4. point difference, McCain wins on Tuesday!!!"

Except Obama leads by much more than that. You are simply cherry picking the worst of the polls--the one that is obviously fixed. Anyhow, this is a state-by-state race. Show us how that would work without cherry picking. You can't and you know it, so you won't even answer that request. So make a real argument or on your bike.


Not that you ever had any credibility here, since you never argue on the evidence, but you are stretching this one far too thin.





Word verification = Malla: even worse than mal. A term used to describe the anti-logic of Micheal the spinster.

sfergus483 said...

--Obama thinks you should be content with a 3% rate of return and no 401K.--

Thanks to Bush/McCain economics, I only wish that were where my money was sitting at this point

Real Joe said...



A prominent New Hampshire Republican who was an alternate delegate to the party's nominating convention is quitting John McCain's campaign and endorsing Barack Obama.

Fred Bramante says he is resigning as a member of McCain's New Hampshire Leadership Committee. He had been a co-chairman of Mike Huckabee's New Hampshire presidential campaign and joined McCain after the former Arkansas governor dropped out of the race.

Bramante, a member of the state Board of Education, said he opposes McCain's support of school vouchers, which he said politicians must abandon if they want to improve education.

Bramante said he's concluded that McCain would do little to improve education, while Obama supports new and innovative ideas.




OUCH !

David said...

"Scary stuff!

I feel sorry for those of you who have yet to make any money, but aspire to it.

Obama thinks you should be content with a 3% rate of return and no 401K."

What is scary is that people bet their future on a bet.

Don't kid yourself, the stock market is nothing more than a casino.

liberal_defender_of_freedom said...

umm...PeteKent, some lady going to speak before Congress in no way reflects Obama's tax plan you dumb ass.

shadowguidex said...

"IBD TIPP 10/30

O: 47.7
M: 43.6

Yeah, really tightening up now"


Wow, yeah tightened by -1 for McCain. At this rate, Obama will only lead by 9 on Tuesday. Spooky.

Dead Cat Bounce said...

Transcript of Obama on last night's Daily Show.

The exchange over the Bradley Effect is a howler.

InkStain said...

"Don't kid yourself, the stock market is nothing more than a casino."

That's my kind of casino. All you have to do is invest long-term and in a diversified manner. Nobody has *ever* lost money following that.

SHERWICK said...

You have to give petekent some credit for keeping on trying, in the face of overwhelming odds against his candidate lol

Mason said...

shadowguidex said...
"IBD TIPP 10/30

O: 47.7
M: 43.6

Yeah, really tightening up now"


Wow, yeah tightened by -1 for McCain. At this rate, Obama will only lead by 9 on Tuesday. Spooky.


BUBUBUBUTTT.... THE BRADLEE AFECT IS 10 PTS FOR CAINER!!

madamerica said...


IBD TIPP 10/30

O: 47.7
M: 43.6


The margin is the largest in 8 days and Obama's number matches his highest since the start.

InkStain said...

Given early voting and it's apparent favoring of Obama, the Bradley Effect will have to be roughly 30% larger than it would have been otherwise.

Jeff NYC Dem said...

Wow, petekent, he and every other politcian lies about running for office. It's just what they do.

jason said...

Nice comment, Voice of the Midwest. Why on earth should anyone care that Obama once said that he wouldn't run for president in 2008? Is that relevant to anything, other than perhaps being a "flip-flopper" (a GOPism about re-evaluating the wisdom of past decisions, which some might think is a good thing)? And doesn't it seem like it was a good idea for Obama to change his mind about that, at least from Obama's perspective?

Perhaps it was not clear to Obama 4 years ago exactly how much his country would need him (and a changing of the guard) in 2008. It would have been dismissed as incredibly cocky (which is the knock against him, and what is supposed to be bad about him, right?) for him to have announced an '08 campaign in Nov. 2004.

It's easy to dismiss the majority of voters that agree with Obama's policy postions as "Kool-aid drinkers," but it rings hollow when it comes from someone who supports a candidate who has offered virtually no policy positions different from the status quo and who has refused to talk about the issues. The Kool-Aid on the GOP side must taste awfully good, because I can't imagine why else anyone would drink it.

Andrew said...

Does anyone know if Fox actually changed their party ID weighting, or if they just don't do any weighting and the sample happened to be more R this week???

Eric said...

InkStain said...

Regarding investing in a diverisified manner and guaranteeing winning in the stock market. 99% true. If you invested in mid-1929 and kept your money in, you'd be break even by about 1954 or so. Not ideal. That said, you're pretty much right, aside from that hiccup.

david said...

Stop with the idiotic critiques of Nate's method, yo. If you've never taken a stats class, never run a regression in your life, have never taken probability theory, and have never designed, implemented, or analyzed a public-opinion survey then your default self-assessment should be "I do not know wtf I am talking about" when attempting to critique Nate's method. And you should not bother commenting b/c it's a waste of pixels.

It's plenty obvious that many critical comments are deposited by people who have not read Nate's FAQ page IN ITS ENTIRETY, or, even if they have, have not understood the key parts. ANY METHODOLOGICAL PROBLEMS ARE ROOTED IN EACH POLLING HOUSES' ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT DISTRIBUTION OF DEMOGRAPHIC GROUPS (including partisan identifiers), AND WHAT SORT OF "THEORY" (POLITICAL SCIENCE THEORY) THOSE HOUSES USE TO PREDICT LIKELY VOTERS. Nobody, and I mean nobody, knows the "real" distribution of demographic groups ex ante, and not really even ex post the election - because the census doesn't ask the key questions and only happens every ten years, and because membership in certain groups changes over time whether due to immigration, or efforts at mobilization by parties, or other stuff (people get old, and sometimes getting old changes your political values, eg.). Each polling house's bias is essential a "guess" about the state of the world. There's no way to know whether the guess is a good one until the election is over, but even that doesn't necessarily predict how good the pollster will be next time around. The key is consistency and transparency in in-house methodology. Leave Nate alone, this site plows through more bullshit than a tractor on GWB's Crawford ranch.

Seth O'Toole said...

Now that things are winding down and 538 - and its commenters - are cemented in the fabric of this election cycle, it's time for some awards.

Who are some of the best - and worst - commenters on this site since its inception.

We could have several catgories like:

Best Overall
Most Partisan
Most Insightful/Intellectual
Best Satirist/Parody/Sarcastic
Most Ignorant


What does everyone think?

David said...

"That's my kind of casino. All you have to do is invest long-term and in a diversified manner. Nobody has *ever* lost money following that."

It is still based on luck and timing. What if you had retired recently and most of your retirement money is in the stock market?

An intelligent person can consistently do better in Vegas.

The reliance on the stock market is one of the major problems we face.

TBender said...

An intelligent person can consistently do better in Vegas.

Doing something like, say, opening a casino?



"press"

shadowguidex said...

Pete is just too much fun. Keep them coming little guy! It's like running a gauntlet of Nerf™ bats. OOOH, don't hurt me with your Nerf™ words, pete. They tickle me with agony.

markymark said...

Actually the stock market is a very sound investment over a long period of time. And there is very little a politician can do that over time. So calm down pete is my advice.

And one of my biggest reasons to oppose McCain is that he hasn't said anything on a whole range of issues, never mind education, but healthcare, science, encouraging business, etc etc.

InkStain said...

"It is still based on luck and timing. What if you had retired recently and most of your retirement money is in the stock market?'

Then you were a greedy idiot that ignored even the most basic investing advice.

That's like talking about if cars are dangerous or not and saying "But what if you get in, refuse to put on your seat belt, floored it and drove in the oncoming traffic lane with your eyes closed."

Getting caught in the stock market as you retire has nothing to do with luck. It's your own bullheaded idiocy.

SalP7 said...

Bill laughed his ass off when Barack said "John McCain will call me a redistributionist for sharing my peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in elementary school"

SHERWICK said...

Most Ignorant:

Ist Place: HE

Runner Up: Petekent

Jim Bob said...

It is still based on luck and timing. What if you had retired recently and most of your retirement money is in the stock market?

Then you are a complete idiot. You should not be so overloaded with risky assets and equities.