9.30.2008

What Obama Accomplished at the Debate

The national polls have been relatively flat since Friday night's debate -- this in spite of the fact that essentially all post-debate surveys had concluded that Obama had "won" the affair. However, not all momentum manifests itself in a candidate converting undecided voters, or flipping voters from the other candidate. Instead, sometimes it looks more like this:


This graph is lifted from today's release (PDF) of the Diageo-Hotline poll. Note the progression of the blue line ... where as 60 percent of Democrats felt enthusiastic about their candidate before, that figure is up to 69 percent now.

There are hints of this pattern in other surveys. Rasmussen reports that 40 percent of voters now have a very favorable view of Barack Obama, the highest that this number has been all year, and an improvement from 36 percent in their last release before the debate. And voters feel safer about Obama. In today's ABC News poll, which actually had McCain gaining back some ground overall, 55 percent of voters said they considered Obama a "safe" choice, as opposed to 50 percent for McCain. In mid-June, the last time that ABC had asked this question, McCain led in this category 57-50.

So Obama may not have persuaded that many voters on Friday night (I don't think his performance, frankly, was all that persuasive). But he may have reassured and locked in some of his soft supporters -- perhaps Clinton voters and working class Dems.

What that means is that Obama's floor is higher (and therefore McCain's ceiling is lower). What it also means is that negative attacks may be less effective for McCain, which are often targeted at soft supporters of the opposing candidate. The CW is that McCain ought to go starkly negative on Obama, but I'm not sure that he wouldn't stand a better chance by zigging when everyone expects him to zag, rebuilding his inherently strong brand, campaigning on the big-picture themes that dominated the GOP convention, and leaving it to the 527's to do his dirty work.

366 comments

jakam said...
This post has been removed by the author.
PorridgeGun said...

MUST SEE!!!

FOX News asks Pennsylvania residents who they're voting for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTkqosRiyYo




LMAO!!!

jakam said...

Yeah...from that graph, it looks like Obama's debate performance was like a shiny toy to independents...they played for a few days, then got distracted and are now settling down again.

Independent have been the most fickle, superficial, and short-sighted voters this election cycle, which is disappointing, since I am one.

Nice job on Countdown tonight, by the way!

tkk13above said...

"So Obama may not have persuaded that many voters on Friday night (I don't think his performance, frankly, was all that persuasive). But he may have reassured and locked in some of his soft supporters -- perhaps Clinton voters and working class Dems."

The analysis made no sense to me until this paragraph. I and friends of mine who watched the debate thought that McCain and Obama tied at best and we were disappointed in Obama's performance. All of us have been die-hard Obama fans and still remain as thus. So I was left thinking, "how could this have increased enthusiasm for his support?" but I guess it makes sense for a different type of voter. If you are the type of voter who is afraid of Obama yet you know that McCain is NOT the right choice for your wallet/job/company, you may have had tentative support for Obama. Once you saw him debate you thought, "ok, he's not all that naive/inexperienced/(black)" and you decided to support him more strongly.

InkStain said...

So anyways, I thought it was weak that Voldemort learned to fly in the seventh book for no apparent reason.

jakam said...

The people that were disappointed in OPbama's performance...if it was because he was too passive or not aggressive enough...I'm telling you, doing so would cost him more than he gains.

The Obama we saw on Friday - intelligent, well spoken, and dignified - is what people like about Barack Obama.

Obliterati said...

Thank god that tongue-jut fiasco is over.

Also: dammit people, McCain did not "gain ground" in the ABC poll! ABC decreased their Democratic ID weights by 9 points from last week!

Sedi said...

Hasn't Obama always had quite a bit more hard support and less soft support than McCain? This just increases the gap, I think, which can't bode well for McCain. Fewer persuadables for one's opponent means less of an opportunity to pick up ground.

Burt said...

And voters feel safer about Obama. In today's ABC News poll, which actually had McCain gaining back some ground overall, 55 percent of voters said they considered Obama a "safe" choice, as opposed to 50 percent for McCain. In mid-June, the last time that ABC had asked this question, McCain led in this category 57-50.

Nate, don't you think that McCain's... shall we say, erratic behavior last week might have something to do with this reversal as well?

Nick said...

I think the fact that Obama now rates as a safer choice probably bears more significance than any of those other figures, over the whole last month of the campaign. We already know Obama is stronger on domestic policy: it's a given now for people shouting from either side of the aisle. This then left McCain with his stronghold being foreign affairs. The CW was this: get foreign affairs in the news, people feel safer with McCain. Now, granted, there's not a _whole_ lot that you can do as a Senator to make the public focus on foreign affairs, but they could at least reinforce it in their talking points.

Now, however, the power of that play is minimized or even reversed. The more Americans are scared of the world, the more they run for cover. If we feel confident, we choose bold leaders; if we feel scared, we want safe picks. Obama has actually managed to hedge McCain in on this because, even given some MoE, McCain no longer rates as the _obviously_ safer pick.

I would also add that my gut tells me that these answers are a lot more gut-based that head-based. By which I mean, I don't think that this is something you can talk people out of. If they _feel_ safe, then that's just how it is. I'm not saying something dramatic couldn't change it, because obviously this number _has_ changed. I just don't think that it's something you're going to be able to chip away at.

Jon said...

I agree with Nate; McCain should act "dignified" and let the 527's run the negative attacks.

I believe Obama has been doing the same thing, although he has less 527's on his side than the republicans do.

chris said...

porridgeGun I've got to say that was pretty funny. McCain by 1650 electoral votes. Can you smell the landslide? You're saying not possible and all but McCain kicks so much ass he'll be winning votes in 2086!
Sadly,I'll be voting Barack.

Nick said...

I have always been skeptical of this whole enthusiam gap argument. A vote is a vote whether people are more or less excited about thier canidate. Yes I think Democrats are more excited about their canidate that Repubs are for theirs, but I think there are more anti-Obama voters out there than there are Anti-Mccain.

Nick said...

FYI, there are two Nicks here...

tkk13above said...

ok to address jakam's comment I won't speak for my friends but I will speak for myself -- it's not that I thought Obama should have gone in heavier on attacking McCain. It would make me cringe if he were to do that, because I know white people would really perceive that the wrong way ("he's angry just like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson!") I thought Obama wasn't direct enough, kept referring to things that are not on people's minds (early education), and failed miserably in answering one question: Q: "what would you cut in light of the financial crisis?" A: "here are all of the many things I would not cut." I'm so glad McCain didn't call him on this. My only consolation in this debate was that McCain sucked. Let me just put it this way -- Obama did worse than Kerry, and McCain did better than Bush. Both by a lot.

To answer porridgegun's post -- that was incredibly hilarious. I laughed out loud!

RedHawksO4 said...

Great analysis, as always, Nate. Obama seems to be on a roll right now without a doubt.


Palin's Expectations for the Debate


Is 2008 Like 1980???

PorridgeGun said...

How in the fuck can 50% of those polled by ABC/Washington Post think McCain is "safe" after the fortnight he's had? It boggles the mind.



I think Biden should go for the kill on Thursday. Sorry, but treating Palin with kid gloves ain't gonna do it. He has to light the lamp.

Nick said...

Nate, I dont think that Mccain going kitchen sink negative on Obama wont be effective. It has worked before and I believe if they close the election the last couple weeks goign negative it will definitely tighten things. Negative attacks unfortunately works for the short term. The econmic news only give us a brief break from the nastiness. The assault on Obama will resume shortly and Dems will be calling for Obama to hit back again like they did before.

Its the only way Mccain can win.

J said...

One of the benefits of an Obama presidency will be actually taking our government back from the crony hacks and corporatists who have been put in positions of power. No more "heckofajobbrownie" in FDA, Interior, Justice, EPA, HHS, Education, and "Homeland Security."

My friends and I were talking today about how cool it would be if somebody like RFK Jr. were put in at Interior. (Although he also is great on voter suppression issues, so whatever department is in charge of HAVA could use his help, too.) :)

David Brown said...

Yes Nick, a vote is a vote, but enthusiastic supporters are more likely to vote and more likely to encourage their friends to vote for their preferred candidate.

That is why the enthusiasm gap matters... turnout.

tkk13above said...

oh, to respond to nick claiming enthusiasm: enthusiasm matters for a few reasons. First, there is turnout. If the weather is crappy or you're busy or the line is long, will you really bother voting if you're only "eh" about the candidate? Secondly, and probably more importantly, there is the ground game. Enthusiastic voters volunteer and help get even more people to their side. They donate. I was strongly anti-Bush in the last two elections, but now that I am pro-Obama AND anti-McCain, I went from simply voting to volunteering: registering voters, canvassing, fundraising, donating money. I did none of these things before. Third, enthusiastic voters cannot be persuaded. Soft supports means it can be picked off by the other candidate given a particularly convincing volunteer/ad/event in the news. Enthusiasm matters. Maybe it doesn't matter much on Nov 4th (though refer to pt #1), but it still matters now. The enthusiasm gap now will likely create a larger overall polling gap by Nov 4th.

I agree that there are many more anti-Obama voters than anti-McCain voters, but refer to my pt #2, as well as multiple posts from this site talking about Obama v. Nobama and how poorly "No Bush" fared against "Bush" in previous elections. The anti-Bush vote was even stronger in 2004 than the anti-Obama vote is now.

PorridgeGun said...
This post has been removed by the author.
moondancer said...

What you said about the Obama performance was what they saw as their objective. To allay fears of radicalism, and to give contrast to the angry combative old man. Mission accomplished.

Subterranean said...

Sullivan with a splendid quip delivered from a position of profound disbelief.

Oh, and thanks for the link porridgegun, I was thoroughly entertained. :)

Jen said...

One of the Nicks posted:

"I have always been skeptical of this whole enthusiam gap argument. A vote is a vote whether people are more or less excited about thier canidate. Yes I think Democrats are more excited about their canidate that Repubs are for theirs, but I think there are more anti-Obama voters out there than there are Anti-Mccain."

I think enthusiasm does matter because of turnout. If you are not excited about your candidate, you may not vote if you are really tired after work or if it is raining or there is a line at your polling place, etc.

I do think you may be correct that there are more anti-Obama (ABO) voters out there than anti-McCain voters, but I think there are more anti-Obama voters than pro-McCain voters and more Obama voters than both together.

PorridgeGun said...

Obliterati said...

Thank god that tongue-jut fiasco is over.

Also: dammit people, McCain did not "gain ground" in the ABC poll! ABC decreased their Democratic ID weights by 9 points from last week!




Interesting... Why do you think ABC did that?


Also, what do you reckon Obama's lead be if they hadn't faffed around with ID weights?

Icarus said...

@InkStain

"So anyways, I thought it was weak that Voldemort learned to fly in the seventh book for no apparent reason."

Heh. Okay, back to the statistics.

Personally, I wonder if the debate was simply overshadowed by the economic crisis, and that stronger support for Obama has more to do with his soothing manner during the bailout chaos. People took note of how he handled a real crisis.

quantman said...

PorridgeGun:

Thanks for the Fox News Youtube link.

That is one of the funniest things I have seen recently!

Thanks so much!

DCM in FL said...

the GOPers are getting more desperate...

I had to debunk the 'Obama is the anti-christ muslim' rumors today for 2 elderly widows in my neighborhood here in central FL.

these old ladies [low-info] are getting leaned on by religious fanatic types who claim to be 'friends' & call up with unsolicited advice that voting for the black man would be a sin against god & start the beginning of the end.

very pathetic, but apparently more evidence that Obama must be doing well in FL.

BTW - absentee ballots have started to be mailed out here in FL & can be returned immediately.

I assisted both ladies at their request to fill out their ballots - which the county supervisor of elections makes overly cimbersome for the elderly to comply with all the rules & regulations.

The absentee form has large circles that must be completely filled in or the ballot is not counted. The circles are difficult for the elderly to color in easily.

The form is folded in an ungainly manner here in Volusia County.

The state ammendment props are badly worded & confusing & no full explanation is provided [but they are available at the polls].

FWIW - at least they require 60%+ to pass...

They are then required to insert the ballot inside a single piece of folded paper called a 'secrecy envelope' - but it is nothing except a means to disqualify the ballot since it has no purpose or use for 'secrecy' or otherwise.

Then they must put the ballot & secrecy envelope inside the pre-addressed return envelope, seal the oversized envelope, sign their names [twice] and date it.

Finally, the voter is required to apply 1st class postage !!!

what a terrible burden to make of the infirmed & elderly - just another method to disenfranchise them.

BTW - without prompting from me, both were proud Obama voters [despite the pressure] & both are voting to boot out Tom Feeney [R] from congress too ! War, social security, economy, health care & anything but BUSH/McCain were the reasons...

And they voted against any incumbent on the ballot - GOP/McCain & Feeney, the supervisor of elections, the tax appraiser, the sheriff, etc.

It looks like a bad year for incumbents...

My BD was last weekend, so this early voting was quite a treat for me !

BTW - IF you have elderly relatives or friends in FL, offer to assist them in getting their absentee ballots returned correctly or their votes will be thrown out.

Fired up & Ready to go !!!

Nick said...

I agree with Nick (sorry, I couldn't help myself). I think that no matter how clean you keep your campaign, there's always an immediate revulsion following a negative add. True or not, they catch people's attention, and stick for a little while. They call it mud for a reason. Yeah, you can wipe 99% of it off, but there's always a little caked on afterwards. And even cleaning yourself takes time, no matter how false the accusations. The fact is, most people believe what you tell them, and if there are conflicting sources, most people trust whichever was more vigorous in his delivery.

If McCain can close this thing to within a couple points, I think we're going to see it all again. It'd go so far as to say that it could restore Hillary's legacy, by making the primaries look clean by comparison.

And no, I don't think there's a floor that McCain is liable to hit. I think he's going to take the "dig deep" mantra to heart, in every sense of the word. It's not hard to imagine the ends justifying the means in the eyes of a Vietnam POW, especially when he missed so much of the latter half of the war.

I think the best way to fight it is to push back firmly (a skill the Obama Campaign has demonstrated it's skill at) and keep the messaging fresh and positive. If voters continue to see a strong, issues based campaign discussion regularly refreshed with the domestic flavor du'jour, it will clash strongly with the negative advertising McCain is destined to unload.

Nick said...

It works both ways though David. A anti-Obama vote is just as passionate, if not more as a Pro-Obama vote. Its like people wanting to see the Yankees lose almost as much as they want to see their team win.

The turnout worked for Bush because he was drawking for a reliable source. The evangelical vote. Obama is depending on young people and minorities... Not as reliable.

Nick said...

I agree with Nick too. ;)

Mr. Six said...

I found Obama's debate performance quite persuasive, as I explained here. I responsive from all voting sectors hasn't surprised me. That so many commenters in print, TV, radio, and online found it so middling has surprised me.

Jen said...

"I think Biden should go for the kill on Thursday. Sorry, but treating Palin with kid gloves ain't gonna do it. He has to light the lamp."

Disagree. He should kill her with kindness. Being very understanding and reasonable when Palin makes a mistake implies that she is not in his league and he has bigger fish to fry. Also, since the narrative is she is a bit of fluff, he might look like a bully or a know-it-all trying to prove what has already been demonstrated by Katie Couric of all people.

By the way inkstain, it looks like your experiment to see if Harry Potter was the thread slayer proved the negative.

esmith said...

Nick said...

I have always been skeptical of this whole enthusiam gap argument. A vote is a vote whether people are more or less excited about thier canidate. Yes I think Democrats are more excited about their canidate that Repubs are for theirs, but I think there are more anti-Obama voters out there than there are Anti-Mccain.


Yes but i think the gap was closed after McCain picked Palin. Anti-Palin is huge. She is divisive.

Poker Samurai said...

---Let me just put it this way -- Obama did worse than Kerry---

Hahaha, no. I like Kerry quite a bit, met the guy several times. He was awful in the debates in 2004. Obama was orders of magnitude better.

MATT J. H. said...

I thought McCain won the debate on points, but obviously those undecided voters disagreed with me (GOOD). Obama will be the first Liberal democrat (Since Kennedy) to be President (If he wins). That's nearly 60 years. Liberals should be ecstatic.

It feels as thought +6 is Obama's ceiling in the polls which is more than enough to win, but he is not likely to remain there. Its fairly likely Obama will go into election day holding a 2-4 point lead, with Obama holding a strong 260EV and needing any one of VA,OH,FL or CO.

We're going to have to sweat a few more rough patches through the next five weeks, and cross our fingers on election day. The Obama campaign believes they have a lot of hidden support and lets hope he's right. His campaign has been right about everything thus far.

Nicholas said...

You nick guys suck.

such sweet thunder said...

tkk13above:

To your comment about Obama heading into left field during the debates to hit topics such as early education: I think you're dead wrong in your assessment. Indeed, I think Obama's micro-targeting was the sole reason he came away with the surprisingly favorable numbers.

Obama was framing issues towards swing constituencies the whole night, something McCain never did. He wasn't making taxes favorable for the working class; he was making tax cuts favorable for teachers, and waitresses, and construction workers (shoutout to unions). Obama wasn't proposing we raise our standing in the world; he proposed we raise our standing in the world so the children of immigrants can grow up in a world of possibilities.

I came away thinking Obama's performance was lukewarm, but listening to him speak was like a constant flow of microtargeting. And that's why he won.

Poker Samurai said...

---It feels as thought +6 is Obama's ceiling in the polls which is more than enough to win, but he is not likely to remain there. Its fairly likely Obama will go into election day holding a 2-4 point lead, with Obama holding a strong 260EV and needing any one of VA,OH,FL or CO.---

Maybe. He's a closer, though.

Nick said...

Ive given up on the belief that we will see a passionate and commanding Obama debater. He was much better in that debate than her ever was but i dont think he won it. He was much more sharp, and quick, and talk faster than he ever did before, and less filtering his answers and thinking so much, and less uuhhhs, and ummms. But there was no, there there. I give him credit for holding his own for 90 minutes with Mccain on taxes, earmarks, and foreign policy. But my god why didnt he pivot to the economy and his populist theme? There is just no Bubba in this man. He is the most detached presidential canidate ive ever seen.

He was down 20 points all last year to Clinton but you wouldnt have known it cos he never shown any fire or sense of urgency. I really believe that if he loses he could care less. But everytime I start to doubt him somehow he jumps back up in the polls. Ill admit he has the most resiliant and desciplined campaign ive ever seen.

Virtually Actual said...

Ah, yeah, that's all very nice and all, but I just saw you on Countdown, and, ah, you're like 19 years old. Dude!

Seriously, it was a very cool showing. A hearty congratulations on your early stardom.

Nick said...

I guess that includes you too Nic.

Jen said...

"The fact is, most people believe what you tell them, and if there are conflicting sources, most people trust whichever was more vigorous in his delivery."

Maybe if the original source wasn't repeatedly called a liar by the MSM. If McCain was going to truth stretch so aggressively, he should have done it closer to election day so he could have gotten it to stick and not lost credibility for other attacks. Just my opinion.

Chi said...

"ABC decreased their Democratic ID weights by 9 points from last week!"

Sneaky bastards, those ABC pollsters. Trying to manipulate the morale of the constituents by raising doubt that may be Obama has slid in the polls. I doubt that would work. The enthusiasm level among the Dems (Obama supporters) as indicated in the chart above continues to drive their effort to campaign, canvass and phonebank even harder for Barack.

Poker Samurai said...

---he should have done it closer to election day---

There's plenty of time, yet.

assmole said...

Maybe McCAin should find some non-earmark related policies.

Jen said...

I just think McCain should have have held his fire until he saw the whites of Obama's eyes.

I think it would have been more effective.

I think more people will watch the VP debate than watched the last one. Some because they really like her, some because they hate her and some because they smell a train wreck from her Couric interview.

Thomas said...

Heres the difference.

I hate the Yankees with a passion, but when I lived near Chicago I never once made the trip to see them play the White Sox just so I could boo them.

On the other hand whenever I'm in Baltimore I always take in an O's game.

Being pro something is much more fulfilling than being anti-something and it shows up everywhere. Pro-life or pro-choice. No one is ever anti-gun - they are pro-regulation. I'm not anti-criminal I'm strong on crime.

Jen said...

But McCain has got a pen and that pen has needs, assmole.

MATT J. H. said...

Nick said...
There is just no Bubba in this man. He is the most detached presidential canidate i've ever seen.

Nick, Nick, Nick, Thats what makes Obama so great. He doesn't dumb it down for the simple folk. I have nothing against country voters, they are the nicest people on earth, but they insist on voting for politicians who are "Like them." THIS IS INFURIATING.
Damn it I want an intelligent President who doesn't act like BUBBA and talks to me like my IQ is above 100.

And on negative attacks, we're past the "Defining your opponent" period. Opinions are solidifying, voters are getting their feel for the candidates which makes negative ads far, far less effective. Even Reverend Right will be much less effective now. McCain has been ultra negative since August and there's only so many attacks that voters can take before they get turned off.

Obama is like a candidate with blinders on right now. McCain and Palin are using every diversionary tactic in their arsenal but Obama remains strongly on message running his campaign. I thought he would surely follow McCain to Washington last Wednesday after McCain decide to "Suspend" his campaign but Obama remained on course, not playing McCain's game, and its working beautifully. Kerry, Gore, would not have handled that scenario like that. We have the real deal here folks. McCain is in very tough. How do you "Shake" the "Unshakable?"

LikesJazz-from-DC said...

To 538 Readers:

In the past week I have learned two major things from Nate's model and the commentary of the "intelligent ones":

1. Barack Obama has opened a very sizable lead, and

2. Modern history would indicate that this lead might well be insurmountable.

The MSM still call this race a tossup, up for grabs. To this I respond --

SHHHHHHHHHHH...

such sweet thunder said...

Nick:


He was down 20 points all last year to Clinton but you wouldnt have known it cos he never shown any fire or sense of urgency. I really believe that if he loses he could care less. But everytime I start to doubt him somehow he jumps back up in the polls. Ill admit he has the most resiliant and desciplined campaign ive ever seen.


I completely agree, except for the part about not caring. It's more of just not getting desperate and waiting for your opponent to self-destruct. Clinton would have won if she had picked a strong message and stuck with it incessantly, but she went for stunts -- and those just wear on people after a while.

And we're seeing the exact same thing right now from McCain.

Election seasons are egregiously long and the points go to the patient candidate who has the backbone to not panic.

Sephinroth (Warlock) said...

Thomas,
Go White Sox.

Poker Samurai said...

---I hate the Yankees with a passion, but when I lived near Chicago I never once made the trip to see them play the White Sox just so I could boo them.---

I'm a Red Sox fan and I flew to Chicago just so I could boo them. Bad analogy.

Dannylandulf said...

LikesJazz,

Don't tell that to the people over at the hedgehog report...I want their delusions to be still in tact on election day...

PorridgeGun said...

MATT J. H. said...

I thought McCain won the debate on points, but obviously those undecided voters disagreed with me (GOOD). Obama will be the first Liberal democrat (Since Kennedy) to be President (If he wins). That's nearly 60 years. Liberals should be ecstatic.


Jim Lehrer's piss-poor moderating had a lot to do with people like yourself and me thinking it was more or less a draw. Lehrer gave McCain the last word on almost every subject. That's a huge advantage. I was fuming at the end of the debate and was convinced the MSM would dclare McCain the winner by default. It was a pleasant surprise when independents and undecideds went for Obama.


BTW, it's gonna get tougher. Gwen Ifil is a weak moderator who will ask at least a couple of totally irrelevant, not to mention retarded, questions. And Tom Brokaw is about as in the tank for McCain as anyone in the MSM. For whatever reason, he's got a chip on his shoulder about Obama.


Besides, the MSM want their Horse Race.




Agreed on Obama/JFK.

Dannylandulf said...

I drove all the way to San Antonio last year to root against Mizzou in the Big 12 Football champ game last year...

But I do agree with your point =)

Redshift said...

Biden knows his job as attack dog is not to take on Palin, it's to take on McCain. He could mop the floor with her as a debater, and it would likely not make the slightest difference in the election, because it won't make her look that much worse to people who are persuadable than she will be without any help. So his job is to demonstrate his own competence and appeal, promote Obama, and tear down McCain. The only way in which going after Palin can help is if it calls attention to McCain's poor judgment and risky choices.

shadowguidex said...

Hopefully the rise in enthusiasm will help this ground game to cascade into an unstoppable force.

shadowguidex said...

"BTW, it's gonna get tougher. Gwen Ifil is a weak moderator who will ask at least a couple of totally irrelevant, not to mention retarded, questions. And Tom Brokaw is about as in the tank for McCain as anyone in the MSM. For whatever reason, he's got a chip on his shoulder about Obama."

I wonder if this will be proven true. Drudge has muckraked a story on his site saying that Ifil is writing a book to be released in November about Obama's candidacy. I sorta think, that deep down she has a bias, and I bet it will play out in the debate. Expect her to ask some tough questions, and some questions that might be so off script that Palin might not have a canned answer at her disposal.

Mylegacy said...

I got a bad feeling.

Sorry, but Obama should be way higher in the polls. This is incoherently close. I'm scared. After this last week McCain is SO fu*ked and Palin is just simply beyong the pale. I wouldn't trust that team to be dog catchers.

America either is as mentally screwed up as the rest of the world thinks or as racist as the rest of the world thinks OR... and not knowing what the OR is...really...has me scared shit*ess.

Man oh man - we had better all work like there is no tomorrow these next few weeks - 'cause if McCain is elected - for America - there is truly NO chance of comming out of this 25 year downward spiral of DEREGULATION, TRICKLE DOWN, KILL THE JOBS - HOUSING - AND ECONOMY that the Reagan Revolution started when they convinced Americans that Government was the enemy.

The ONLY country in the FREE WORLD with no Uuiversal healthcare, the death penalty and more people in prison than freakin' China!

We are SO close to being permanently fuck*d!

C.S.Strowbridge said...

"Disagree. He should kill her with kindness."

I agree. Be kind to her while she hangs herself with the rope of ignorance.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Gwen Iffel has stepped down as the moderator on the Thursday debate. It was decided that she was so in the tank for Obama, due to the release of her book that depicts her affectionate longings for Obama's body, that she must step down. In her place will be Sean Hannity. It was decided that it was only fair to have a balanced questioner.

interstices said...

Could the increase in voter enthusiasm among Democrats be not so much a post debate solidification of support on the margins but rather reflective of a liberal cocooning bathed in recent bad news for the McCain-Palin ticket? [e.g., poorly executed head fake suspending campaign, botched CBS interview, Tina Fey SNL parody].

In basketball terms I think Obama is nearing a three possession lead and perhaps it's just that his most committed supporters already in the tank are getting more enthusiastic about his chances, and not those who are marginal supports or swing voters. Think about how the Friday debate rated as one of the lowest watched in a long time. That might mean something.

* * *

On another topic, why does it seem that its the ABC poll that is often the skunk at the picnic, becoming notorious for odd stuff like McCain closing the gap this week (despite other polls to the contrary), and a few weeks ago finding that white women were flocking to the McCain-Palin ticket - based on a small and likely unreliable sub sample in their poll?

Wa7th said...

"Be kind to her while she hangs herself with the rope of ignorance."

I'm hoping he jabs corncob holders into her temples.

Jack-be-nimble said...

Apparently its all over for Obama. Ifel's book details the solicitous relationships of the president to be. McCain campaign wanted her to stay on, but she decided the jig was up, the monkey was out of the bag.

Wa7th said...

The what was out of the bag?

Blame said...

It is well worth noticing that unlike Obama, McCain is not in charge of his campaign.

How much money does he still controll & how much is he relying on the RNC & 527's?

There is now a fundimental disagreement between McCain & many of the others over the bailout. A lot of republican's are going with the (perhaps ill informed) public & voting no.

What if other Republican candidates decide to run anti bailout ad's? What if the RNC backs them?

There is a very good chance that McCain will have the choice of running against his own party or going pure popularist & finding a reason to condem the bailout.

sherifffruitfly said...

Some people are reporting the site not working. What gives?

MATT J. H. said...

I think Obama's calmness and his campaign's discipline drives his opponents nuts. He doesn't stick the knife in like we all want. He lets opponents eat themselves alive.

The Clinton campaign was like the Titanic. It was the unsinkable ship. The immovable object. Just as the Captain of the Titanic thought the ship was impervious, so thought the Clinton's. The iceberg was the Iowa Caucus. That was the frozen mass that punctured the hull and started the downward spiral. After Iowa, the panic was palpable and as the Clinton campaign were a frantic mess, the Obama campaign slowly and carefully built an insurmountable lead through unparalleled organization and each delegate was like another inch of rising water that inevitably sunk the unsinkable.

The McCain campaign is in an all too familiar position. They came out of their convention like a bolt of lightening with unforeseen momentum. While the media was abuzz with Palin Mania, and the ever-hand-wringing democrats came from the woodwork too offer advice and criticism, and while the Obama campaign did seem "Off" for a week or two, they made subtle coarse corrections and let the McCain campaign plow into its own iceberg with its deceit. Once the economic crises struck Obama regained his lead and surged ahead while Rove,Schmidt,McCain and his minions start the self cannibalizing process. We are in crunch time, 3 debates and 5 weeks to go. The pressure will build daily and the McCain camp will throw the kitchen sink, again. They will start heeding the advice of others and lurching from attack to attack like a fishing boat during a hurricane. Obama will remain on coarse and focused while his enemy consumes himself with anger, frustration and helplessness needing a mistake to regain any morsel of momentum, but it does not come.

Finally on election day with the McCain camp in disarray with its fingers crossed and hoping the polls are wrong, hoping there's a chance ...

OBAMA/BIDEN 08

Jack-be-nimble said...

Apparently Michelle is very upset with Gwen..she had her own book due out on inauguration day titled.....I've never been proud of my country, unless Barack wins.....If he doesn't win, it's whitey's fault.

Burt said...

The trolls here used to be amusing. Now they're just incoherent. "Jack-be-nimble's" posts read like someone ran them through the Google translator into Japanese and then back to English.

cora said...

Nate, as always, it takes a few days to understand the effects of a debate. You've got it right.

I've posted before that my sensation was that Obama had gained consent within the democratic camp. I would say more clintonista women than blue-collars. I also feel this was due to a very well performed strategy calculated by his Campaign. He had to appear reassuring, and that is exactly what he has accomplished. I think he will be somewhat more agressive during the final debate, this will seem justified to the male blue collar voter by the toughness of the economic situation and by the partisan stales going oin in congress.

To our GOP posters I wish to remind that, inevitably, debates get most of the pubblic's attention. That's why I believe it's to late for heavy negative attacks by the GOP, they will no longer get as much attention. They media is entirely focused on the debates. So all the talk about the Palin Biden is good for Obama: it does not give time for any large scale negative attack. So, disagreeing with many pundits, I feel a TIE would be the best result for Obama - it would deprive smearers of a full week of focus.

Randall said...

A lot of us around the country can't reach the site -- in #xkcd there were about ten of us who couldn't and just one who could. It's broken for me from five different machines around the US. Something's up with Blogger/538 and it's just redirecting us to the Google front page.

No idea what's up. It's not an ISP or DNS problem. It's been going on for maybe an hour.

I'm gonna try sleeping. It'll be better in the morning.

Josh said...

It's disturbing to me that the polls are at *all* close. It should be a huge blowout. But that being said, I really do think the Daily Kos poll is going to be proven to be the most correct on election day (they currently have Obama up by 10.)

I think Palin will continue to push independents and moderates (and any thinking Republicans) away from McCain.

She was a political stunt and the short term gain he got from her will be greatly overshadowed in the long term.

Blame said...

Anybody tried getting onto DemConWatch?

It seems to be down. Maybe they didn't pay the Morgage?

Matthew said...

So all the blogger sites were down?
I thought it was some sort of DNS poisoning against 538 or something.

Welcome back, internets.

coop said...

Ahhhh! Welcome back 538! Was scared there for a minute! lol

Gurami@gmail.com said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

::types fivethirtyeight.com, gets google.com::
::stares blankly for a minute or two, feeling lost and alone in this cold, scary world::

... phew! that was close. ;)

haribelafonte said...

what is mccain doing in iowa?

Lani said...

Happy to see you on Countdown. You are blowin' up Nate! Deservedly so. It's good to see the media recognize good talent.

Smitty said...

YES! It's the real fivethirtyeight. I did a screen "reload" and suddenly found myself at google.com. I mean, it has been like hours and days and weeks trying to get back...hasn't it?

Nate, you were great with all of your appearances today. Congratulations!

KQuark said...

I call it OWS (Obama Withdrawal Syndrome). Obama's supporters seem to get less energized when they do not hear Obama on the national stage for a while. It happened a while after the primaries were over and faster after the DNC was over. Obama supporters want to see Obama in the spotlight. When the distractions hit and Obama is on the defense confidence in him seems to drop. It's good for Obama that the economic crisis put Obama back in the spotlight and that the debates are happening during and close to the election.

cora said...

KQuark,

OWS is fantastic. It builds expectations.

Think about PAS (Palin Appearence Syndrome) or MSS (McCain Suspension Syndrome). These are diseases.

donelson said...

Nate, the RCP running average shows BOTH candidates taking an uptick of a point or so in the first full polls after last week's debate.

Comment please?

miles said...

@MATT J. H.

wtf? 60 years? it hasn't been that long, has it? is it really 2020?

miles said...

@ shadowguidex and porridgegun:

you guys obviously don't watch much pbs. both lehrer and ifill are in the tank for obama. lehrer is very cool about it, but you can see the gleam in ifill's eyes whenever she talks about him. everyone knows that pbs/the news hour is a(n) (i would say objective, so would gwen and jim) "liberal" information source. jim lehrer did an extremely good job trying to be fair to both candidates. anything less would have prompted the obvious criticism from the right of his being "biased". i'd say that he is the only one who could have remained so immune to the now-compulsory mccain-based accusations of gotcha journalism. we can expect the same impartiality from lehrer's heir-apparent.

Liam Hedge said...

Nate,

Good to see you're not up at some ungodly hour posting, need you nice and fresh for tomorrow's polls (I'm in Australia so this is not really an issue here being only 8:15pm)

Anyway, just wanted to post some great news! Obama just went ahead 30 points on Intrade! Hurray! Seems like the dodgey trader may have realised how much money he was losing on a day to day basis. Anyway, looking forward to tomorrow (which is really just today for me... weird) I'm going to guess some serious bumping for Obama. Not really because I've studied this whole thing but I'm just optimistic.

miles said...

g'day, liam! i'm actually in san diego, so it's (let's see) 3:22 am! does it get any ungodlier than that?

Liam Hedge said...

"g'day" Touche miles,

Yeah, 3:22... not sure what you're doing up. YOu're not going to be out of bed in time to get tomorrow's polls. Big mistake. What I'm not wondering about with intrade is who the hell is still up and bidding at this time... Australians????

San Diego? So where are you planning on heading come Nov 4th? NV? Swing that one and I'll credit you :-)

Jesse Radin said...

It's over for McCain. No chance whatsoever...

I am very excited.

Liam Hedge said...

ditto Jesse, ditto.

Unfourtanetly the night that the election is called is going to be about 1pm here. Which means I'm going to have to be partying pretty crazy at 1pm. Odd.

Still Obama's broken every other rule this election: half-black, intelligent, charasmatic, etc. Why shouldn't he break the one about holding massive parties at 1pm???

PorridgeGun said...

Ah yes, the old Republican claim that PBS/NPR are in the tank for Democrats.

Shite.



Lehrer has been identified as a neutral. That's why he's moderated the first presidental debate fot the last three elections. He's been pretty solid up to now, but last Friday he was unbelievably bad. He let McCain ramble on ever his agreed upon time, never challenged him to address Obama directly, something he pushed Obama to do, and most importantly, gave McCain the last word all night. After telling both candidates he was moving onto the next question, Lehrer allowed McCain to get one last dig in. Watch the debate again - it's as clear as day. You can tell Obama was somewhat pissed off at the end.




If jack_be_numbnuts is saying Gwen Ifil is in the tank for Obama, you can be sure it's bullshit. And besides, she's moderating Biden/Palin, not Obama.


4 years ago, Ifil never challenged Cheney (nor did Edwards) when he lied about having never met Edwards before the VP debate. But one of the biggest failures of her moderating that night was when she asked both candidates some puff-piece question which you'd expect to hear on daytime television.

AxelDC said...

You Just Don't Understand!

McCain lost the debate not on substance, but because he attacked too often and ineffectively. His main thrust was that Obama is a political light-weight, something his celebrity ads aimed at getting across.

Obama deflected those attacks by showing a depth of knowledge that at least equaled McCain's. Meanwhile, Obama's attacks were fewer but more focused, going after McCain on Iraq and pointing out the folly of his earmarks crusade.

Obama never went after McCain's character, but scored on attacking McCain's judgment. McCain went after Obama directly in a very ineffective way.

Meanwhile, Palin undermines all of McCain's arguments. How dare he attack Obama for being to inexperienced and lightweight for the job with Palin at his side. Meanwhile, Palin attacks Biden for being too old???

Real Joe said...

Good morning !

Real Joe said...

Quinnipiac University poll:

FLORIDA: Obama 51, McCain 43

OHIO: Obama 50, McCain 42

PENNSYLVANIA: Obama 54, McCain 39

OMG ! WTF !

*** BALLS EXPLODE ***

p smith said...

Republicans across the nation. How do you like these apples?

Per Quinnipiac

Florida - Obama 51 Liar 43

Ohio - Obama 50 Liar 42

Pennsylvania - Obama 54 Liar 39

Res ipsa loquitur

DaWolf said...

amazing how much difference different pollsters make...

where does Quinnipiac rate as a pollster?

DaWolf said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Zach said...

link, please?

Also, I really like the look of those, but they're the outlyingest outliers to ever lie out. :)

p smith said...

They rate pretty well and were very accurate during the primary season. They tend to use larger sample sizes too which is encouraging.

Here is a link to the actual poll

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?ReleaseID=1218

Real Joe said...

how the fu** did this happen ?

this must be a fake poll

i'm having a seizure >>>OMG

niedda said...

Polls: Obama leads in critical trio of states

from The Associated Press


Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama D-Ill., steps off the plane at the airport in La Crosse, Wis., Tuesday, Sept. 30, 2008. Associated Press © 2008



WASHINGTON October 1, 2008, 06:43 am ET · Recently trailing or tied, Democrat Barack Obama now leads Republican John McCain in a trio of the most critical, vote-rich states five weeks before the election, according to presidential poll results released Wednesday.

The Democrat's support jumped to 50 percent or above in Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania in Quinnipiac University surveys taken during the weekend — after the opening presidential debate and during Monday's dramatic stock market plunge as the House rejected a $700 billion financial bailout plan.

Combined, these states offer 68 of the 270 electoral votes needed for victory on Election Day, Nov. 4.

Pollsters attributed Obama's improved standing to the public's general approval of his debate performance, antipathy toward GOP vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin and heightened confidence in the Illinois senator's ability to handle the economic crisis.

The fresh polling is the latest troublesome turn for McCain, the Arizona senator who is trying to regain control of the campaign conversation amid increasingly difficult circumstances for Republicans. It comes on the eve of a debate between Palin and her Democratic counterpart, Joe Biden, and as the financial crisis shapes the presidential race in unpredictable ways.

For now and probably for the next month, the race will be entirely about who can best handle an economy in peril.

The war in Iraq, national security and foreign policy issues — McCain's strengths — have largely fallen by the wayside as each campaign tries to chart a course to the presidency in extraordinarily choppy economic waters.

The new surveys show Obama leading McCain in Florida 51 percent to 43 percent, in Ohio 50 percent to 42 percent and in Pennsylvania 54 percent to 39 percent.

Since 1960, no president has been elected without winning two of those three states.

The results are notable because they show Obama in a strong position in the pair of states that put Bush in the White House in 2000 and kept him there four years later — Florida and Ohio, with 27 and 20 electoral votes, respectively.

Obama has been struggling to break into a comfortable lead in both states; for weeks he had been mostly about even with McCain in Ohio while lagging for months in Florida, even after being the only candidate on the air and spending some $8 million on advertising.

Pennsylvania, with 21 electoral votes, is a different story.

Obama is trying to hang onto the state Democrat John Kerry won four years ago, though McCain has mounted a stiff challenge as he seeks to benefit from his rival's trouble with working-class voters who question his liberal voting record and, perhaps, his race.

The telephone polls, which were taken before and after last week's McCain-Obama debate, have margins of error ranging from plus or minus 2.8 percentage points to plus or minus 3.4 points.

———

bryen193 said...

Per the Quinnipiac fake poll make-er-upper:

"It is difficult to find a modern competitive presidential race that has swung so dramatically, so quickly and so sharply this late in the campaign."

Liam Hedge said...

Omg! Nate puts their margin of error at 1.75. If this is correct worst case scenario of 4.5% in florida pro obama. Even if this is an outlier... poor McCain... an outlier can't be so much off that Florida is scarily in play for him

Peter` said...

Something Nate blogged during the debate

"The true wedge issue of 2008: tactics versus strategy."

Joking aside, I think that goes to the heart of the campaign, and also the sort of presidency we can expect. Obama's campaign has been strategic, developing the ground game across the US and setting up winnable contests in multiple swing states, while refusing to be knocked off his message by events. Apart from the day-to-day battle in the polls, that gives off the vibe that he is reliable and unflustered.

In the debate, he didn't entirely nail McCain's arse on the subject. What he should have said, with the benefit of a few days hindsight, was ...

"Um, Um. With respect John, you are mistaken. Tactics are about how you fight. Strategy is about where you fight, and when"

Liam Hedge said...

Hmmm... my last comment contradicted itself halfway through... clever. Anyway, the poll can't be so off that Florida is NOT scarily in play for him. Yet another BG he has to defend. With little money bar that he gains from the loopholes he exploits.

Sedi said...

Eh, those are pretty trivial results from Quinnipiac. 8-point leads? That's barely outside the margin of error. FL, OH, and PA? I mean, how about polling some states that actually matter, like AL or UT? Plus, they're from Quinnipiac, which is a pretty crappy pollster, right? I bet they have really tiny sample sizes, too. Wake me up when some important results are reported.

Liam Hedge said...

lol, you know what's scary sedi? It took me till halfway through your post to realise you were joking. This is the influence that republican trolls have had, we can't even detect satire anymore.

DaWolf said...

In the debate, he didn't entirely nail McCain's arse on the subject. What he should have said, with the benefit of a few days hindsight, was ...

"Um, Um. With respect John, you are mistaken. Tactics are about how you fight. Strategy is about where you fight, and when"


I thought that too. McCain actually doesn't understand the difference - and this from someone who's had extensive military training....

explains why he finished 4th from bottom in his class though.

matador said...

this is big:

Quinnipiac University
9/27-29 (Post Debate) and 9/22-26 (Pre-Debate)
Mode: Live Telephone Interviews
Sample sizes listed below are from post-debate samples

Florida (836 LV, +/-2.9%)
Post Debate: Obama 51, McCain 43
Pre Debate: Obama 49, McCain 43
(9/9: Obama 43, McCain 50)

Ohio (825 LV, +/-3.4%)
Post Debate: Obama 50, McCain 42
Pre Debate: Obama 49, McCain 42
(9/9: Obama 49, McCain 44)


Pennsylvania: (832 LV, +/-3.4%)
Post Debate: Obama 54, McCain 39
Pre Debate: Obama 49, McCain 43
(9/9: Obama 48, McCain 45)


http://www.pollster.com/blogs/quinnipiac_fl_oh_pa_92729.php


poor McCain:
sic transit gloria mundi.

Real Joe said...

Quinnipiac University is liberal hack

* taking some pills to relieve the pain *

Ryan said...

Are these polls going to make McCain suspend his campaign again? Lets take bets as to what time today the press release comes out.

Sedi said...

Liam Hedge,
Yeah, a few times when I've posted something sarcastic and ridiculous like that a couple of people have actually thought that I was being serious. The hazards of the internet, I guess. And it just shows how outrageous some of the right-wingers are around here.

Generally, Quinnipiac is a pollster that I trust, though this is partly because they tend to have very large sample sizes. The ones for these appear to be a bit smaller (<900) than usual, but still pretty good. I'm a little leery because they were taken over the weekend in the afterglow of the debate and when McCain seemed to me to be at his lowest. Of course, it could get worse for McCain at the end of the week.

justin32099 said...

Those Quinnipac polls.....whoa. They've had Obama higher in Ohio than everyone, so this is actually consistent with Ohio not really moving much during Obama's surge. But 3 weeks ago they had him down 7 in Florida and up 3 in Pennsylvania...and now up 8 and 15 respectively? Wow.

joel said...

The Q polls have been showing better results for Obama all year. I wouldn`t take these polls as gospel.
The main thing to notice is the trend, which is all going obama`s way. This poll has also flipped Florida and Ohio on RCP.
Looks more each day like a 350 vote EV landslide for Obama.If Palin makes a fool of herself on Thurday this thing is over if it isn`t already.

Blame said...

Bugger

After I wrote all those posts saying Florida & Ohio were too Election weary to budge in the polls, this happens.

There is no justice. Oh all right, it is justice. McCain & Palin deserved it for total incompitance, but did they spare one thought for my feelings?

p smith said...

Sedi, if you go to the Quinnipiac link you'll see that they polled about 1200 in each state pre-debate and another 800 post-debate.

The pre-debate numbers are still very good for Obama (up 6 in FL, up 8 in OH and up 6 in PA) and if you take it as a single poll, each state has a sample of 2000 with Obama holding leads of 7 in FL, 8 in OH and 10 in PA.

Real Joe said...

Obama can't win Ohio

all the polls are fake

Jerry056 said...

Per Quinnipac: Obama up 15 in PA, 8 in OH and 8 in FL.. I'm a huge Obama supporter but I can't for the life of me believe he is winning by these margins. In PA I can believe 5-7 points and OH-FL I believe it's pretty much tied. Does Quinnipac call all over each state or only in certain places? I really hope these polls are the truth (Obama trending higher) but right now without other polls backing these huge leads up they scream "outliers" to me.

I hope I'm wrong :)

Ryan said...

If Palin comes across as an idiot on Thursday I really think the election is completely over. I would bet money at least 70 million will tune in.

matador said...

Real Joe said...
Obama can't win Ohio

all the polls are fake
*************

Yes he can.
remember:
ubi maior,minor cessat.

niedda said...

10/1 Daily Kos R2K Tracking Poll: Obama 51 , McCain 41

DarĂ­o said...

The RCP electoral map is Obama 348 McCain 190.

RCP is a liberal hack.

DaWolf said...

does anyone else feel that McCain is simply running out of time here?

Assuming that a popular vote win = election win (not true of course...but probably accurate to a percent or two)

Obama is currently running ~5% ahead on the national polls. Yet this may not be accurate - if you assume for arguments sake

1)Increased AA (not counted highly enough in most polls) = 1-2%
2)Increased youth vote (not counted highly enough in most polls) = 1-2%
3)Great GOTV = 1-2%

Then Obama might well be double figures ahead right now...

Can voter suppresion and the Bradley Effect (I know Nate has lots of numbers that say it didn't happen in the Primary, but this is the Presidential Election so I'm not willing to completely discount the possibility) really make up anything like a 10% gap? And how telling that McCains only hope is dishonesty and racism...

Anyway, McCain HAS to bring the polls back to something like level. Yet the only 3 events we know are going to happen all favour Obama - VP debate Palin should exceed expectations but that's only because expectations have been fixed by the Couric interveiews which are complete train wrecks...if the other debates are anything like the first (and they aren't on foreign policy) then Obama will get a bounce out of them as voters become used to the fact that he's Presidential.

Even with some tightening of the race, with all those factors in Obama's favour is he really going to slip behind at all, or for long if he does?

I hope this isn't a mirage but I'm seriously finding it hard to see a McCain win right now. I expect McCain to go completely wild and try all matter of stunts of course - but would I be right in thinking that this emphasise his own bad points by now?

Sedi said...

p smith,
Thanks for the clarification. It's a little confusing which numbers are being used. It sounds like the ones getting attention are the post-debate numbers, but the pre-debate numbers are essentially like a whole other poll, and a big one at that. Both show pretty comfortable Obama leads, suggesting that the big movement came with the financial meltdown, not the debate. This is in line with other polls.

As long as the number of people calling the economy the biggest issue stays in the 60-70% range, McCain realistically has no chance at being elected. Did anyone else notice the Bush approval numbers? He's in the mid-20s in all three states. Wow.

quantman said...

IT'S TOTALLY SO OVER FOR McCain!

- Florida and PA polls show it breaking away, so far away that McCain has no reasonable chance of coming back

- LOSING Florida means total Curtains for McCain

McCAIN should SUSPEND HIS campaign now and put COUNTRY FIRST!

Since he has near 0% chance of winning, McCain should go back to Washington to try and solve this economic mess caused by the Bush Admin and the Republican party.

counsellorben said...

Sedi said (about the 10/1 Quinnipiac polls) "Did anyone else notice the Bush approval numbers? He's in the mid-20s in all three states. Wow."

Sedi,

More importantly, look over to Bush approval among Independents in each state.  Bush's BEST number is in Ohio, where 20% approve, and approve/disapprove is -53.  Approve/Disapprove among independents is over -70 in PA and FL.

Given the importance of independents, this is another statistic strongly favoring Obama.

One final nugget from these Quinnipiac polls.  Question 9b asks "Who do you think did a better job in the debate - Barack Obama or John McCain?"  In all three states, independents picked Obama as the winner, +15 in FL and OH, +27 in PA.

PA John said...

Another new PA poll (Franklin & Marshall):

Obama - 45
McCain - 38

Another Obama +7...

DaWolf said...

One final nugget from these Quinnipiac polls. Question 9b asks "Who do you think did a better job in the debate - Barack Obama or John McCain?" In all three states, independents picked Obama as the winner, +15 in FL and OH, +27 in PA.

Good spot.

A great deal is made of low expectations - well, isn't that what many of the uncertain voters about Obama had? They were reassured...

Guancous said...

Breaking footage about Sarah Palin's Facebook page getting hacked at Heartless and Brainless.

Blame said...

It's not over till the fat lady sings.

McCain still has the nuclear option.

Flip on the Bailout & go full throttle "hands off the peoples money".

Antmatic said...

Q-Pac has the trends right. Obama has increased his lead in PA and has gained points in Ohio and Florida. Q-Pac started out with higher Obama support levels in Ohio and Florida than other pollsters, so now he shows Obama with substantial leads.

Looking at the crosstabs and the large sample sizes, Q-Pac seems to be doing real legitimate work.
I would note that besides PA, Obama is not putting up numbers in the mid-50's in these states; he's at 51 in FL and 50 in OH, which is not far off from his support levels in other polls. The alpha is McCain's expressed support is lower. I would guess most of the undecideds in Q-Pac polls are leaning McCain or won't vote at all. Still, though, 50% is a huge number.

Those three polls are the best I've seen all year

dominoid73 said...

LOL at Intrade.

New Wager - "Barack Obama's Intrade value will increase more than John McCain's following the VP debate"

Currently trading at 70

BTW O64.7, M 34.6

So will it be 70/30 by Friday? Could be.

Dave-london said...

A few things from recent days:

VP Debate:

When you are ahead, to attack is dangerous, yuo can be hit by a counter-punch better to simply defend [as long as you can do that in a half decent way] only attack if it is in your particular case the best form of defence you have eg West Ham Utd, [sorry i dont know of a A.football team with a great attack but useless defence]


I have been loving the chess anaology of the last few days.

Less so the Potter/Baseball analogy.

For the rest of the world -
JM is 2-0 after 55mins, he has a couple of subs he can throw on but its not looking good.

And for the Aussie, JM is england who are are 146-5 KP is still in but its a good ptich and we may have missed the boat in terms of putting a big one on the Board.


Which raises one Q -

in both the international analogies I have given JM still has a shot, ie the debates and to peel off a couplf of states without the Popular vote.


But, BO is on 286 if you discount todays polls. Only takes a PA or perhaps to not quite seal the deal on CO+VA, and you have a loss. It is still very close.

Alex S. said...

Uuh... Quinnipiac!! WTF??

They must be using a turnout model similar to Ann Selzer´s. And since Quinnipiac always creates BIG polls their results will dominate these states for the next 3 weeks.

eve said...

Real Joe said:
Quinnipiac University poll:

FLORIDA: Obama 51, McCain 43

OHIO: Obama 50, McCain 42

PENNSYLVANIA: Obama 54, McCain 39

OMG ! WTF !

*** BALLS EXPLODE ***


wonderful post, but where is the real joe poll?

Dave-london said...

oops that should read JM is 2-0 down....

Sedi said...

"When you are ahead, to attack is dangerous, yuo can be hit by a counter-punch better to simply defend"

Yes and no. Biden would be foolish to attack Palin very often or very seriously. He doesn't have to, since she has done such a good job of imploding on her own. Biden should attack McCain relentlessly during the debate, however, strictly on policy and focusing on how McCain has changed and is no longer a maverick. This line of attack has few risks for Biden, especially if he stays focused on policy, not personality. Given that Biden and McCain are friends who have sparred for years in the Senate, this should be easy for him to do.

counsellorben said...

Blame said "McCain still has the nuclear option.

Flip on the Bailout & go full throttle 'hands off the peoples money.' "


Blame,

I have to say I will be very disappointed if the Democrats do pass the current bill.  Passing the TARP bill would be a case of "sin in haste, repent at leisure."

Don't get me wrong, we need a plan.  But the TARP bill is a bad plan.  It fails to address the underlying problems, does not offer any relief to people who are in default on their mortgages, and gives the wrong incentives to the financial institutions.

Kill this bill, and let's get an alternative plan!

fred said...

Real Joe-

The fake pollster.

Quadrivium said...

Nate Silver on September 30:

The reason the model still projects Obama with a slight advantage in Ohio, when the two most recent polls (SurveyUSA and Rasmussen) gave McCain a 1-point lead, is because those polls (especially Rasmussen; less so SurveyUSA) have tended to be toward the lower end of Obama's projected performance in Ohio. And those polls have shown gains for him -- just not enough to give him a lead. The model assumes that when pollsters like Quinnipiac or CNN or National Journal, which had been friendlier to Obama before (shown him tied or ahead in Ohio), refresh their data, they too will show gains for Obama, and will probably show him several points ahead.

Quinnipiac poll in Ohio, released on October 1:

Obama 50, McCain 42 (Obama +8)

Is this guy good or what?

PorridgeGun said...

That's blockbuster stuff from Quinnipiac. Do I buy it? I don't know, yet? Do I take it? FUCK YEAH!!!



I'm biased, but that's how those states SHOULD look.

fred said...

Wow! The Quinnipac poll is stunningly good news to wake up to.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?ReleaseID=1218


FLORIDA: Obama 49 - McCain 43 pre-debate; Obama 51 - McCain 43 post-debate;

OHIO: Obama 49 - McCain 42 pre-debate; Obama 50 - McCain 42 post-debate;

PENNSYLVANIA: Obama 49 - McCain 43 pre-debate; Obama 54 - McCain 39 post-debate

eve said...

dcm in florida-- those mail-in ballot "rules" are awful --- here in Texas postage is not even required to send in a ballot. Our state gov. has a great website for helping people vote -- we can even register to vote online or get a form in libraries, grocery stores, etc. My favorite thing is early voting.

fred said...

McCain loses in any scenario if these polls hold through election day. Wow, I guess Nate's statements about ARG must be right! Huge differences.

Real Joe said...

McCain Landslide !!!

Sedi said...

Quadrivium,
Yeah, that's the genius of this site: it allows us to see trends as they develop and predict with some degree of confidence what subsequent polls will look like. I waste a ridiculous amount of time here, but I'm so much better informed about the state of the race than anybody I know. Thanks, Nate!

OTF said...

Quinipiac Polls great today. PA seems high at +15, everybody else has been polling Obama +7 to 8 lately but he definitely has a good lead. The polls in FL and OH remove McCains previous less than 1 pt lead in the RCP averages. Maybe all those hating on Nate's model showing showing Fl and OH trending Obama will cut him some slack. Nate is predicting ahead of time and it seems he's right for the moment as he has had Fl and OH shifting Obama with his trend adjust. I don't think the FL and OH leads are +8. The last 4 polls in each state have been shifting Obama for instance in Fl: M+1,then tie, O+3,O+8.

Alex S. said...

I wonder how Nate will include these polls into the model. Will he include 2 seperate polls pre- and post-debate? Or will he take them as one, somewhat averaging their results? Or will he follow rcp and just use the post-debate numbers?

Nick said...

Usually I depend heavily on the Quinnipiac state polls but this has to be the most off they have been all year. These are extreme outliers. I think these polls are kind of like a mirage right now for the Obama people. I would take them with a grain of salt and not start going into prevent defense like they did at the democratic nomination.

Real Joe said...

eve said...
wonderful post, but where is the real joe poll?


we had to close down the real joe tracker because of the credit crisis

PA John said...

Only takes a PA or perhaps to not quite seal the deal on CO+VA, and you have a loss. It is still very close.

OK everyone - sing along with me one more time....

John McCain has never - !!NEVER!! led a major poll in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

I will say it again: The only way for Barack Obama to lose PA would be by punching Joe Paterno in the balls, pissing on the Liberty Bell, and wearing a Cleveland Browns jersey at Heinz Field while calling Franco Harris a pussy - all on the same day...

DaWolf said...

@OTF

Maybe all those hating on Nate's model

I don't hate on Nate's model. To the contrary, I think it's the best model by a long way, hence why it's the only one I bother checking now.

However, that does not mean it is perfect. I still think it is dubious to put quite so much weight on trends - I would like to see the trend effect weakened.

Real Joe said...

all these are fake polls

McCain is way ahead in FL, OH, PA, NC, NM, CO, IN

jhsm85 said...

Hey everyone, I've been visiting this site for a few months now but never left a comment.. So this is my first one.

Just wondering here.. I noticed today's Battleground poll has Obama ahead +2 in the national numbers. Is Battleground still working with the same under representation of young voters? If they are, a Battleground poll giving Obama a +2 edge must be very good for the Obama campaign?

fred said...

Anyone else think the Quinnipac poll was fake? It is just too good!

Here is the quote that really jumped out:

"It is difficult to find a modern competitive presidential race that has swung so dramatically, so quickly and so sharply this late in the campaign. In the last 20 days, Sen. Barack Obama has gone from seven points down to eight points up in Florida, while widening his leads to eight points in Ohio and 15 points in Pennsylvania," said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

eve said...

Blame said...

It's not over till the fat lady sings.

McCain still has the nuclear option.

Flip on the Bailout & go full throttle "hands off the peoples money".


I won't be surprised if he does this. But it will just make him look more erratic and unsafe.

Real Joe said...

Bill Clinton in FL for 2 Obama rallies

lets hope he says some thing stupid

McCain Landslide !!!!

Real Joe said...

Nervous GOP urges McCain to attack

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/14146.html

DarĂ­o said...

Now Bill is an Obama friend.

Alex S. said...

So... if you´re John McCain, and you know that you won´t win Pennsylvania or Michigan, and that you can´t keep Iowa and New Mexico... where would you go to now?

cora said...

Quinnipiac notes that no president has been elected since 1960 without winning two of those three swing states.

"It is difficult to find a modern competitive presidential race that has swung so dramatically, so quickly and so sharply this late in the campaign. In the last 20 days, Sen. Barack Obama has gone from seven points down to eight points up in Florida, while widening his leads to eight points in Ohio and 15 points in Pennsylvania," said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

Race barrier collapsing.....
America losing it's religion ?

Real Joe said...

say it with me liberals

President McCain !!!

Sage said...

Hey Nate-
Quick question. I don't understand the Indepdenent line in the graph. I understand that the dip represents a decrease in enthusiasm in Indys .. but for which candidate?

jhsm85 said...

fred:

Anyone else think the Quinnipac poll was fake? It is just too good!

Here is the quote that really jumped out:

"It is difficult to find a modern competitive presidential race that has swung so dramatically, so quickly and so sharply this late in the campaign. In the last 20 days, Sen. Barack Obama has gone from seven points down to eight points up in Florida, while widening his leads to eight points in Ohio and 15 points in Pennsylvania," said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.



I would think it's also fairly unusual to have a financial meltdown of this magnitude, so close to the election. When it all comes down to it, voters will always put their own pockets before other issues, and even though I had my doubts about the Quinnipac polls when I first saw them. But with a financial meltdown, plus, a candidate who is favored so strongly on economic issues, this all makes a little more sense..

Real Joe said...

cora said...

Race barrier collapsing.....
America losing it's religion ?


don't worry

all are fake polls

Sedi said...

Nick,
I agree that Obama should stay aggressive and not slip into prevent defense mode. That said, calling the Quinnipiac results "extreme outliers" might be going a bit too far. They look like outliers right now, but the trend lines are consistent with other polls and they are not totally outside the realm of believability. They are unquestionably at the pro-Obama end of the spectrum of plausible results, though.

I wonder what methodological differences are leading them to such outcomes. Previous polls have been somewhat Obama friendly -- the last OH poll stands out in this respect -- but not by as much as these results. Are they assuming a different level of turnout or compensating more for youth or cell-phone voters than other pollsters? I wish that they released more information about the composition of the voters they interviewed. Does anybody know if they publish this information anywhere?

p smith said...

Here is an explanation of the the changes that Battleground have made. It affects both party ID and agre weightings which would explain the reversion to an Obama lead.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/battleground_drops_party_weigh.php

InkStain said...

Qunnipiac proves that people have been missing the point all along in those states.

Obama has had a large movement to him in those states. Whether it is enough remains to be seen.

But Nate's model correctly predicted, as usual, that since the McCain-friendly polls had it Obama barely behind, the Obama-friendly polls would have him way ahead. Splitting the difference puts him ahead a couple points.

Scale an Quinn poll back a few points, just like you mentally scale Rasmussen up a few points.

DarĂ­o said...

For the McCain campaign.
Obama is the son of Osama Bin Laden!!.

InkStain said...

"So... if you´re John McCain, and you know that you won´t win Pennsylvania or Michigan, and that you can´t keep Iowa and New Mexico... where would you go to now?"

Pick an outrageous VP candidate to get attention? Suspend your campaign in a desperate gambit?

EmonOkari said...

At the VERY least, Florida and Ohio are TRUE toss-ups now...and no sane person can deny it. Also, both are quite expensive markets. McCain now has to flood them with massive resources, just to desperately defend. Resources he would love to use in CO/NV/VA/etc.

Antmatic said...

Note 1:
Rasmussen
O-51, M-45
There are no "big days" anymore, just consistent 50-51% performances for Obama

Note 2:
Quinnipiac's top level Obama support IS NOT THAT OFF from other polls. It's the McCain support that is softer in Quinnipiac. So they aren't THAT far off.

DarĂ­o said...

Another important point.
The Quinnipiac polls takes more people than Rasmussen polls. Quinn takes 1000 LV or more, Rasmussen only 500 or 700 LV.

DarĂ­o said...

And with more people, more credible.
I think.

Real Joe said...

what are the other state polls coming out today ?

CNN ?

any national polls ?

DarĂ­o said...

Your daily tracking Real Joe.

cora said...

McCain lost the Puma vote after the first debate. He will lose the blue-collar one (Puma husbands) after the final - hard on ecnomy -debate.

OTF said...

McCain campign is in trouble. While I don't think Obama is ahead 15 in PA, he does have 5 polls in a row showing him up by +6 or more. McCain isn;t going to flip PA. MI is pulling stead towards Obama abd more than +5. FL is trending towards Obama and VA has 4 of the last 5 polls Obama +3 to 6. NV and IN are holding for McCain with poll averages at around +2.

I Want to see some NV poll., There has been none in the last 10 days. I wonder if the solid NM and CO leads for Obama are spreading to the last southwest state he's contending.

InkStain said...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=10

I almost feel bad if this is how it turns out. Almost.

DarĂ­o said...

348-190 Obama.
RCP electoral map.

Chun said...

Real Joe said...

say it with me liberals

President McCain !!!


Wait, is this one of those joke posters or a real one? I can't even tell any more.

Real Joe said...

i want more polls

where the fu** are they ?

Real Joe said...

Chuck Todd: new poll

Newly registered voters favor Obama 61 to 30

OMFG !!!

not good :-(

Alex S. said...

Hmm, the Quinnipiac Florida and Pennsylvania polls are 8 points above Nate´s regression. The Indiana poll of Ann Selzer was 11 points ahead of Nate´s regression. I wonder what a Quinnipiac poll of Texas would look like. They just might have it tied (Selzer even Obama ahead?).

DaWolf said...

it could even be worse for McCain than that RCP map - Nevade, Missouri and Indiana are all down as Red.

Landslide real possibility now...

fred said...

The righties this morning are out sayin Gwen Ifill's upcoming book on race and politics is pro-Obama. I am pretty sure it isn't, but, hey - they need to lie about something.

Link to book:

http://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-Politics-Race-Age-Obama/dp/038552501X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222866075&sr=1-1

OTF said...

For anyone that read the internals on The Quin polls is there a negative Palin effect going on? Her favorable to unfavorbale are tanking.

Palin's Favorable/Unfavorable
FL 36/39 -3 total...previous +6, -9 among Indies now

OH 35/35 even total...previous +17, +3 among Indies now

PA 34/37 -4 total....previous +4, -23 among Indies

McCain's favorbale/unfavorable move 2 or less in FL and OH but dropped 12 in PA.

Real Joe said...

WTF is going on RCP

look at this map ?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=10


WTF ??

fred said...

Billiy Clinton was counting on an Obama loss last Sunday in that interview, maybe he will come around today. I hope POTUS (XM130) will carry the them.

Alyssa said...

Do you people ever sleep or work? What the shit.

quantman said...

Real Joe Said:

Congratulations to President McCain of Botswana!!

Only in Botswana, where Real Joe is from and is headed back to!

fred said...

No, never. This is an historic once in a lifetime election - no sleep for me until this ends!

Antmatic said...

Pew national numbers

Obama 49
McCain 43

My only comment is:

Obama, now's not the time to play prevent defense. I know you are typically cautious, but you can end this thing in the next few weeks.

Git er dun.

fred said...

Real Joe:

Georgia needs some new leadership, maybe McCain can go there.

InkStain said...

"Do you people ever sleep or work? What the shit."

This is what I do while I'm supposed to be working.

DarĂ­o said...

Important data from scott Rasmussen:

"Obama leads among Democrats 87% to 11% while McCain leads among Republicans by an identical margin. For much of the year, McCain was able to count on a more unified party than Obama, but that advantage has disappeared. Obama benefits from the fact that there are more Democrats than Republicans in the nation and he also holds a nine-point advantage among unaffiliated voters (see other recent demographic highlights).

Obama is now trusted more on economic issues by 51% of voters, McCain by 42%. That’s the biggest advantage either candidate has enjoyed on this issue during Election 2008 and the first time either candidate has been trusted more by a majority of voters (see crosstabs, trends). This comes at a time when 48% of voters say that the economy is the top issue while just 20% say that national security is the highest priority. Obama has nearly eliminated McCain’s advantage on national security issues and the Democrat is now trusted more than McCain on ten other key issues tracked by Rasmussen Reports.

Obama today is viewed favorably by 58% of voters, McCain by 53%. However, 39% have a Very Favorable opinion of Obama while 27% have a Very Unfavorable view. The comparable numbers for McCain are 25% Very Favorable and 26% Very Unfavorable. This is the first time all year that McCain’s Very Unfavorable rating has topped his Very Favorable numbers".