Some scattered thoughts on the ponderable above:
1. Thave been some particular resource allocation decisions made by the Obama campaign that I've been skeptical of from the get-go. The one that always stood out was Georgia, with the criticism stemming from Electoral Portfolio Theory 101. Namely: while it was possible to conceive of a world in which Georgia went blue, it probably wasn't going to turn blue before North Carolina, and it certainly wasn't going to turn blue before Virginia. Obama very probably will have won the election if he wins Virginia, and he'll certainly have won the election if he wins both Virginia and North Carolina. So the resources deployed to Georgia are arguably redundant; it was hard to think of Georgia as providing better than about Obama's 320th electoral vote, even under the best case scenario.
2. Arguably also, the Obama campaign was too eager to defend certain states, such as Maine and perhaps Washington.
3. There is also one state that the Obama campaign arguably missed from his group of 22, which is West Virginia. Our tipping point model has always liked West Virginia because it is so demographically unique. It is easier to conceive of Obama winning West Virginia while losing a state like Virginia (if, say, he gained traction by positioning himself as a populist) than to conceive of his winning North Carolina or Georgia while losing Virginia. And what if Obama had selected Hillary Clinton to be his running mate? The two states that I think would have come into play almost immediately were West Virgina and Arkansas, but Obama had no real field presence in either state.
4. If the intention was to draw resources out of the McCain campaign, Steve Schmidt certainly didn't take the bait, never really venturing into states like Indiana or Montana.
5. But clearly, the post-convention electoral map appears to have been affected heavily by the choice of Sarah Palin, which fired up the Republican base and returned traditionally red states back to the red column. If McCain had instead picked, say, Mitt Romney, who ran poorly in the South during the primaries, it is much easier to conceive of North Carolina becoming an interesting state. If he had picked an insider like Joe Lieberman or Rob Portman, it is much easier to conceive of Montana, which doesn't like Washington DC candidates, becoming fertile ground for Obama.
6. Indeed, perhaps one of the reasons that McCain picked Palin was precisely because the Republicans were having trouble in states like Montana and Indiana. So maybe Obama did not bluff McCain into opening a field office in Kalispell, MT, but he might have scared him into thinking that drawing the Republican base together with the VP was a necessity, even if Palin may eventually present problems for him in other areas.
7. One further point to consider is whether polling generally becomes more partisan as the election nears. That is, was it in some sense inevitable that North Dakota would turn more red? My guess, after peeking at a bit of 2004 data, is that there probably is some tendency for states to "partisanize" themselves as the election draws closer, but nowhere near the scale of movement that the Republicans seem to have gotten post-Palin.
8. Keep in mind that the resource allocation choices made by the Obama campaign aren't necessarily focused on the goal of getting him elected President. They may also be motivated by a desire to expand the party's reach in future election cycles, or to help Democrats in downballot races.
9. Finally, this entire discussion is premature to some extent, since we don't yet know to what if any extent Obama's ground game advantages will be worth something. Take a state like Indiana, where Obama has an enormous field presence and McCain has almost none. I doubt that there has ever been such an imbalance of resources in any one particular state in the modern era; game theory would dictate (I think) that allocations of resources between different states ought to be about equal between the two major parties. What if the disparity is worth 3 or even 5 points above and beyond what is reflected in the polls? Then Indiana could very well be a tipping point state, and Obama's decision to set up shop there would look like a stroke of genius.
Lastly, a quick note. I'll be on the road for the next couple of days and as such, posting schedules are going to be a bit erratic. We'll do the best we can and appreciate your patience.
9.14.2008
Was Obama's 50 22-State Strategy a Mistake?
by
Nate Silver
@
11:05 AM
...see also obama, portfolio theory
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449 comments
I think Democrats are being quiet about Fannie Mae since the Republicans tried to blame Chuck Schumer for the collapse of IndyMac.
'Cause, you know, shoot the messenger.
el cid,
Obama always thought a GA win would have to be a perfect storn of Barr getting 6%, huge Dem turnout and new voter registration, and McCain taling it for granted.
Overall theinvestment in the south is goodfor the Dem party overall inth future. VA for instrance is a rapidly changing demographic state and Obama has a chance to flip it. VA will get better and better for Dems if the demoigraphic change keeps on. NC also has some Demographic changes. I lot of people are moving from the north to the research triangle and tech industry in NC. Also. northerns are moving there as the NC real estate market had a boom and was being promoted as good retirement place.
A lot of people also forget that without Southern Democrats, particularly African-American Democrats from the larger and medium cities, the Democrats would likely have no majority in the House.
It's not as simple as a divide between a Tom Schaller 'Whistle Past Dixie' (which is mainly about carefully shepherding limited resources for Presidential races) and maximalist 'Obama's gonna take Georgia & Mississippi' enthusiasm.
The Democratic Party has to have a 50 state strategy -- of some type -- because (a) there are 50 states; (b) there's more to government than a Presidential election every 4 years; and (c) it's the right thing to do, to be able to stand up to these horrid Republican policies anywhere, even if some location's 95% Republican you still don't just give in.
So, as a realist, if you can afford some minor activity in Georgia, do it, keep it up; but if it really comes down to scarce allocation of resources, then do what you gotta do.
vince1974,
You know you DON'T really want to touch this when the ENTIRE Wall St is a perpetual GOP Convention where Banker cronies and K Street party like there's no tomorrow. Wanna get into Paulson's Goldman Sachs origins, or McCain's economic advisor, Phul Gramm's "Nation of Whiners"? That just narrowly missed being made into an ad, a real close shave for McCain. Who are you kidding? He was McCain's advisor up till that Marie Antoinnette moment, shows how McCain must have spent sleepless nights mauling over the plight of the Little People.
On second thoughts, go ahead and push this. :) Hope it gets traction.
You're here to wind us up, a beginner's Palin with baby hockey sticks. I think you need bigger training wheels.
WHY aren't Obama people tallying up some figures for us as to the tune of the staggering amount Bush is making us cough up to bail out Wall St? Privatize profits, socialize loss, yep,
*GOP Capitalism* trademark.
Privatize Profits, Socialize Loss. GOP Capitalism *trademark*.
That may sell some Ts!
T-shirts of course, something of value, not junk Treasuries.
Good question qute.. why isn't he?
Is it because the Dems dont want the truth put out there.
Americans are looking for someone to shoot arrows at both sides.
This Obama's moment of truth. He will fail becasuse he has no intention of harming his party in any way.
McCain and Palin have a record of being fearless about attacking corruption, no matter what it be found.
That is why McCain will win. Obama is a fraud and the real Obama is not the person he claims to be.
Cid,
You're right. That is one thing that always frustrates me whenever I see lefties or righties talking about how foolish Obama's 50-state stretegy is - because it's NOT about JUST his getting elected. It's about getting DEMOCRATS elected. No, Obama has no shot at winning in Mississippi or Utah or - especially now - Alaska. But as Democratic candidates before him have merely ignored the more rightist areas, they pretty much gave up on them altogether. That sends a very important signal to Democrats and everyone else in those areas: we really just don't give a sh*t about you (whether it's true or not is beside the point). So no, Obama's not "wasting" resources in places he will never win. Instead, he's doing something that his predecessors should have done a long time ago (and which Dean had tried to get the ball rolling on): start rebuilding a Dem infrastructure where little-to-none existed.
I just started reading these comments so I don't know if anyone has yet mentioned it but I think it's time to challenge McCain tragic victim role. It's a forty year old ploy that covers the fact that he bombed thousands of people, likely many innocent civilians from several thousand feet.
McCain is a narcissist who by his own published admission wants to president because it's the big prize.
Americans are soon to become very disappointed that the bald-faced lying, reckless VP-picking John McCain of 2008 is doing everything he can to besmirch the tradition of honor & integrity that they admired from the John McCain of 1968.
Ok, lets all settle down a bit.
Lets take the Email ad for a start people. The point of the ad is that McCain is out of touch. Whatever the truth of the email thing, the point is valid. Even if the ad is a bit hokey and actually a bit naff. McCain would prefer to give tax breaks to millionaires rather than ordinary people for instance. And as for sleazy ads, well I think accusing a father of two young girls who voted for a bill to help educate young children about the dangers of sexual predators of wanting people to learn about sex before they learn how to read and write is pretty sleazy.
On the polls, well we all know the McCain bounce is still in operation. (Its only 10 days after the RNC finished after all). Its hard not to be jumpy as an Obama supporter right now, but I think McCain is at a peak right now, and the storm can be ridden out (I apologise if that analogy upset anyone, couldn't think of another way to put it.)
No,no, no, vince1974....McCain isn't pushing this for darn good reasons. Go back and look over the 4-pt. campaign directive, you know, wedged between "Wind Em Up!" and "Obama bin Laden" under the heading in bold, "Do Not Mention Wall Street!!!" lest "Storming the Bastille" gets scheduled on Nov. 5th. I suspect guillotines may come back in fashion.
AlexS. has logic FAIL:
"To emphasize that the EVIL east coast liberal media is in the tank for Obama:
Currently 8 (!) of the 10 most popular NYT articles on their web page are anti McCain/Palin.
And 3 of the 4 most viewed articles of the Washington Post are anti McCain/Palin."
That's set by the READERSHIP which is acknowledged to be Blue. New York, DC, New England? Come one -that's not the Press that's who reads the Times and Post.
The Research 2000/Daily Kos daily tracker is skewed to Obama by the following demo breakdowns (nice the poll is revealing crosstabs):
Though Latinos make up 15% of Americans, they are only about 7% of actual voters and yet Kos has them as 13% of the sample (and there is no reason to believe they will turn out heavier this year).
51% of voters are women but Kos has women at 53%, men at 47%.
With Minnesota and Washington suddenly becoming tight battlegrounds, McCain can play more offense and force Obama to be more on defense of blue states. An Obama loss in either state would probably be fatal.
I mean, how difficult is it to dig up some stats on political affiliation-cross tab- Wall St bosses? I suppose vince1974 will be happy to Google *that* for us?
Any way you slice it, this race will go down to the wire. It's fun looking at the polls, but the race is so tight and the nation is naturally divided, that we are really where we were before the conventions: a statistical tie. It was 45/45 before. ~48/48 now. The respective bases are now firmed up (granted, Obama has more work to do).
Regarding the polls, I think McCain will win OH and FL. IA is solid blue. NM looks like it will be blue (Richardson machine will step it up). MN, WI, MI will break to Obama even if by 1-2%. Philly market alone will go towards a narrow Obama win in PA.
This leaves CO, VA, NV. Unless McCain is +5 in CO leading into the final weekend, I think Obama will win CO. Polls cannot pick up the ground game and GOTV effort. Don't discount the 40k or so who attended the Dem convention as prospective volunteers. H2O issue is also key.
VA is a true toss-up; we'll find out what happens pretty early on 11/4 since VA will be one of the first battlegrounds to report. NV demographics are quirky enough to have everyone up very late on election day.
So..unless I see McCain really break away from Obama (unlikely...Palin can't carry him for the next 50 days), the Kerry + IA/NM/CO path is still intact.
Nate, you've mentioned that the red states seem to be getting redder. Looking at New Jersey, might it offer evidence that perhaps the blue states are simultateously getting bluer?
And if what is now unfolding is essentially an amplification of red-blue polarity, how much utility can national polls still have, as they increasingly seem like a matter of averaging the temperature of a bucket of boiling water with that of a bucket of ice water?
Regarding Colorado women:
Colorado Women on Youtube
sedi - you've got it exactly - and it's nice to be able to just scroll through.
these trolls are kind of like my (late) father, who just loved to bait people to see if he could make them mad - just for the sake of the baiting.
i've only been watching 538 for a month or so, and it gets easier and easier to just scroll past the trolls - they are only active when we respond to them.
filistro - as always - you are right on point!
"I mean, how difficult is it to dig up some stats on political affiliation-cross tab- Wall St bosses? I suppose vince1974 will be happy to Google *that* for us"
Let us know what you find.
Charles M. AxmxZ,
It's not Rove being more honest than McShame, it's Rove/McShame playing goog cop bad cop to trick the electorat into Palin/McCain 08.
you'all've prob saw this on fox, but Karl Rove now says that mcCain's ads have gone too far.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/14/karl-rove-mccains-ads-hav_n_126280.html
But it should be noted, Rove's complaints with McCain's strategy was not that it had elicited the condemnation of groups like politifact or factcheck.org -- "You can't trust the fact check organization in all respect," he said. "They are human beings and individuals; they have got their own biases in there." Rather, he argued that by exaggerating so wildly, the Republican presidential nominee had opened himself up to political attacks.
The bounce is GONE!!!
The running average of polls conducted since 9/6 shows a TIE!
Rasmussen: +3 mcbush
Gallup: +2 mcbush (tie Friday night)
Hotline: +2 Obama
Res 2000: +2 Obama
Newsweek: Tie
NBC/WSJ: +1 Obama
if this is correct, that the hotline poll is reversed in realclearpolitics (can't access the site today to check) and - i'd ignore the res2000 since I don't know about its reliability - rcp - still has the 9/5... postings, and the above is cherry picked to favor obama, but sure looks like the beginnings of the end of the bounce to me Nate?
hmm the hotline poll is today 9/14 45-43, obama leading
vince1974,
"Let us know what you find."
Dude, you're the one TRYING to convince us here. You mean, you posted all that sh*t without the facts on hand to back them up???
SIGH.
This is a great site, but sometimes the underlying model seems a bit clunky. Right now, for example, the model says that McCain's chances of winning Massachusetts (11 percent) are higher than Obama's chances of winning Montana (10 percent)...This doesn't strike me as plausible...
You're missing the big picture, which includes women voters this year, thanks to our outrage and weariness over being mocked, patronized, and taken for granted by the Democratic Left.
Obama and the DNC had Hillary Clinton by the throat, but they don't have McCain and Sarah Palin by the throat. As a PUMA, I am eager to bring down not only Obama, but Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, John Kerry, and Ted Kennedy.
The Democratic Left is disgusting. Their scorched-earth policy against centrists and women candidates who think for themselves is going to cost them, as well it should.
We don't have to roll over and take it any more. I am no longer a Democrat. I am an Independent and a PUMA. You may not respect us, but you will learn to fear our votes.
maria: Good for you.
I have to say I would never have thought myserlf ever capable of saying this but I gained a respect for Hillary this year. watching her fight as the tactics of the Left and Press were used against and yet she kept fighting on.
I would much rather have her as President instead of the Marxist.. though McCain has surprised a lot of us and is running a very effective campaign
@ zozie 2:49 pm
Yes, I am with you there, I was ironic. I think I imitated the trolls too well.
God. Did someone lose the conch or something?
Why does this place look like a bar for soccer hooligans when McCain has some good numbers?
Sheesh. It's not even halftime guys.
I agree with this advice by Diane Francis. Obama needs to start attacking NOW:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/francis/archive/2008/09/14/hillary-supporters-18million.aspx
I'm glad that you've come round to my way of seeing things Nate. I do recall saying that investing in Georgia was a mistake and that he (Obama) should instead focus his resources.
Anyone want a switch to phpBB2?
With it, we could choose to ignore users as we pleased instead of scrolling past them and being tempted to look at them (although responses to them by non-blocked users would appear in blockquotes.)
Too many trolls on both the left AND right.
Michael--the unlikely percentages go both ways; just two weeks ago we were talking about how improbable it was that Texas was as likely to go Dem as Penn was to go GOP.
I think the model is over-sensitive near the center; the gap between 70-30 and 50-50 is assumed to be smaller than it actually is, and this plays into those sudden swings.
OTF--some good points about the demographic changes in the South.
While SC is an even longer shot than any of those on the Presidential level, it might also bode well for Dems in other races in the future for the same reasons.
DeMint won 53%-44% in 2004 in a very strong GOP year--8% worse than Bush did against Kerry there--and a Dem could take him if s/he had strong center-right positions and also attacked how he blamed "wimps in Congress" for deaths in Iraq and basically defended Vitter's prostitution.
Then again, he made equally over-the-top comments in the run-up to '04 (i.e. gay/unwed teachers) and got through.
The rest of the nation's Democrats are learning the hard way what we here in Vermont knew long ago: that Howard Dean is a self-enthralled idiot!
MidPointMan, above, has it right: It IS laughable...unless you were hoping to win! Yet many, including M. and EzE and Elfouegh, above, still extol this great "strategy" to bring victory in "2016" or "2024", to "carry on Dean's work." Ah, yes, Howard Dean, the brilliant strategist, will lead us to victory coinciding with the end of time! Like the owl in Thurber's Fable for Our Time.
Although the odds have slipped here, polls still show Dean's home state as the only one 99% percent likely to go for Obama. Solid!
Is there anyone else out there who'd rather, waddyacallit, WIN NOW, with a sucky 22-state tactic, rather than lose for 16 more years with the 50-state strategy of this small state egomaniac?
Dean outplayed Ken Mehlman pretty badly in 2006 in terms of fundraising management.
If Terry McAuliffe were in charge, George Allen, Conrad Burns and possibly Jim Talent would still be in the Senate, as would many more House members.
Usually we save the post-mortem for after the game is played. There is way too much "Monday Morning QBing" for what is essentially the 2nd Q of tied game.
There are several things being discounted in this analysis, namely a worsening economy, and 4 pending debates. What if McCain performs as badly in the 1st debate as Bush did in 2004. Obama is trending towards parity now, and by the debate should be even or maybe even ahead. A +6 swing like happened to Kerry in 2004 puts Obama ahead 5-7 points, near landslide territory.
Beyond that, this 11-state game is what is fundamentally wrong with American politics today. It cost the Democrats 5 senate seats in 2004, and even more so, it cost Bush heavily. Yes, he eked out 2 elections, but Bush has never been the President of the US (except for 2001-2002), because he focused on winning about 25 states to get re-elected. Massive population centers like NY, CA, and IL have never embraced Bush as President, and it has hurt him over the course of his presidency.
If Obama wins the election, he will not have wasted resources trying for the South. Having the support of people in Texas and Georgia is critical to a Democratic President, even if he never wins those states, just as Bush has been handicapped by having California and the entire Northeast as his sworn enemies.
Instead of berating Obama for not sticking to the divisive and perverse 11-state strategy, you should be criticizing McCain for further poisoning the well of American politics. Even if he wins this election, it will be barely and he will be the weakest elected president in modern history.
I don't know. It seems to me that the 50 State Solution is what helped him win the primary.
I think it will still pay dividends downticket, but whether the fund raising advantage it gave him outweighs the expense isn't clear yet.
I hate to be a spoil sport here .....but according to the areas shaded in blue on your map ...Obama has 264 electoral votes ....and is currently leading in Colorado
the states shaded in blue add up to 264 electoral votes ....not 248.1 ..... Obama is currently leading in Colorado also . Sorry , back to the tard pit for you guys ....learn to count before posting misleading bullshit .
8. Keep in mind that the resource allocation choices made by the Obama campaign aren't necessarily focused on the goal of getting him elected President. They may also be motivated by a desire to expand the party's reach in future election cycles, or to help Democrats in downballot races.
Ding ding ding...We have a winner! This point is right on. Now, it only begs the question of whether or not Obama was too confident in his ability to win without maximum resources in key states. I'm still holding out that he wasn't. He must win.
Hindsight is 20/20.
He didn't see Sarah Palin coming, so he spent time expanding the map into places like Montana. Before her appearance on the ticket, Montana was looking like a possible upset.
Not any more.
I don't think it was a waste of resources to mobilize on the ground in more states than the ludicrousness of the electoral college "mandates."
Let's face it, Palin shook up the race. Those of us with the time and resources now have to work harder than we already are to get Barack into the Oval Office.
Too many Americans have such a short memory of the forces of darkness in this country. These forces of darkness have taken away some of the greatest voices among the ranks of our citizens (JFK, MLK Jr., RFK, JFK Jr., John Lennon, Paul Wellstone...etc) but people forget and get sidetracked by military industrial complex diversions, including the dumbing down of America by an excess diet of pop culture. Like puppeteers they continue to operate in the shadows of our democracy, attemptin to undermine all that is good, bright and hopeful and righteous in America. Where is our mainstream media? Palin's radical right wing extremist/criminal views and mentors are truly disturbing. The McCain/Palin ticket is a threat to what remains of our way of life. At this critical juncture of American history, the forces of darkness offer Americans a mentally and physically ill old man who is a Trojan Horse for the Neocon's and a MILF with Tits, hoping that the vast majority of non thinking Americans will pull the lever for the white old man and the hot babe.
So much pontification and so many wild speculations! Nate Silver sounds as if he is writing a post mortem on Jan 9, 2009. Ladies and gentlemen, it is September 15. The elections are about five weeks away, ahead in the future. Nate's tenses (Obama was, should have, was GA a good idea) betray his trust in Obama's skills as a competent tactician or perhaps he just forgot his sixth grade grammar exercises. It is true that Palin's entrance into the game has shaken things. True that a reorder is necessary and maybe the entire deck needs to be reshuffled. The job is not done. Sarah Palin just got back from Alaska so the campaigning just started. Virginia just ordered 200000 voter registration forms and there are millions of black people across the south who are not yet registered. So, I predict that much of the hoopla surrounding Palin's fresh presence will fizzle out especially given the fact she seems to be heading the campaign now while McCain is playing second sidekick. Obama was right: Democrats ought to play in all fifty states. Democrats are Americans too and if they do not actively play in the so called red states, their message will never be heard and local Democratic leaders will never be elected to local or state-wide offices. That is a bold mark of his leadership. Obama's presence sanitizes these septic environments where old politics thrive.
Jim Fl--that's because electoral votes are weighted by probability.
True, Obama currently stands at Kerry+IA+NM, but the decrease in votes is because he has a decent chance of losing NM, PA, MI, more so than McCain has of losing similar states that are leaning his way like VA and FL.
people don't seem to understand what it is that occurs at an obama field office. basically if a field office is in a state that isn't close, the field office mostly performs phone calls in states where there is a close race and they perform democratic events in the community to raise awareness and recruit new volunteers. nate's argument could work when referring to advertising budgets. but downticket arguments could be made for the advertising as well.
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